Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[NewDigs]

The problem is Anna needs to find her voice, take over, and say what SHE needs if that marriage is going to be restored.  But she has not been programed to do that.  I wish she would take Daniel up on his offer and flee with her kids for the rest of the year and think things over.  If those bastards are telling her that she didn't put out enough, and that is why Joshie fell, then @*_#$(Q)&*%Q)*&!!

 

She needs to speak up.

I don't think she knows how.

[barbedwire]

I fear you are right.

[graefin]

Gothard has some pretty stringent rules about when a couple can't have sex:

This doesn't leave a ton of opportunities.

 

Even if Anna greeted Josh at the door every evening wearing a Playboy bunny outfit, I guarantee this would still have happened.

If they are abstaining until 7 days after menstruation ends, doesn't that just increase the likelihood of conception?

 

Maybe Josh just wanted to be able to have sex without it resulting in another baby.

[Granny58]

Even if we don't rationally admit parental influence, we can decide how to act. My mother was a monster. I chose not to be. Josh knew from biblical teachings, if nothing else, that adultery was wrong. Yet he pursued it and then blamed it in old Satan.

in fact, my parents were/are (1 still living) quite great, but not perfect, and I see in those imperfections how they shaped many of my decisions and personality traits.  I don't blame them, but I wish I had wised up sooner.  Good or bad - parents are fundamental influences.  

[NewDigs]

If they are abstaining until 7 days after menstruation ends, doesn't that just increase the likelihood of conception?

 

Maybe Josh just wanted to be able to have sex without it resulting in another baby.

I think you're giving him too much credit.

[mbutterfly]

Gothard has some pretty stringent rules about when a couple can't have sex:

This doesn't leave a ton of opportunities.

 

Even if Anna greeted Josh at the door every evening wearing a Playboy bunny outfit, I guarantee this would still have happened.

I started to say that is a lot of missed days. Then I remembered that these women don't have so many periods as the rest of us. 

[barbedwire]

I think Josh is overwhelmed with 4 kids and he is not even 30.  And if he has his own opinion, like "I don't think I can handle any more kids" then he is shunned (like Daniel keller) and the gravy train stops and what does he do? And he has this wife who wants as many babies as possible, even trying to surpass her MIL.  I in NO way condone ANYTHING Josh has done, but these so called family members are not helping him at all.  If only Anna would insist on a professional, in another state far away from "family" to help Josh and help them both make decisions.  If only....

[NewDigs]

Once again, I don't think Josh is capable of self-reflection.

He's all, mememememe.

[Aja]

 

 

1. What message is she sending to Josh? Is her staying giving him a green light to cheat again? That's clearly the message he got on the molestation issue. He "confessed" as a teenager and nothing much changed for him. Now he's been caught cheating - he didn't confess; he was caught. Her staying with him without major changes in his behavior and the way he is treated is nothing more than her handing him the credit card next time. 

 

 

I was just coming here to post exactly this. Josh's life has been appallingly consequence-free. He violated his sisters in the most disgusting, traumatizing way possible and life basically went on as before. No real treatment and reassurances that God and his sisters forgave him. A few years later, he's a reality TV star, his wedding is televised, he lands a job in DC making a salary I don't even want to think about to basically carry on being an entitled, hypocritical douche. The molestation scandal breaks. His mother and father go on national TV all indignant with the whole sleeping/clothes/didn't know what happened/forgiveness/long time ago/evil liberal media crap and two of his sisters that he VIOLATED follow suit. The WOMEN he VIOLATED as LITTLE GIRLS (who also happen to be his SISTERS) go on national TV and say "Oh my goodness shut up y'all! It was so long ago!" If Josh's sense of immunity wasn't already cemented at that point, I'm sure that did the trick. The fact that he frantically tried to cancel his Ashley Madison accounts only AFTER the molestation scandal broke just proves that he doesn't give a shit about God or Christian values or his "precious wife Anna" at all. Now this happens and all accounts indicate that Anna is flatly refusing to even consider making Josh face any consequences for it, and is in fact even accepting at least part of the blame herself. She's basically guaranteeing that shit like this will continue to happen to her and continue to get worse. Anna darling, at some point you're going to have to face it. You DID make a mistake. You married one of the stupidest losers on the planet. But it's not unfixable by any stretch, and it's largely not your fault. You trusted that the people closest to you were encouraging you and giving you advice based on what was in your best interest and this whole time they've been using you for their own selfish gain. Your parents, your husband, your batshit in-laws--they're only thinking of one person when they open their mouths and speak to you, and it isn't you or your kids. YOU are in charge of YOU. YOU are in charge of your children. You need to make yourself and your kids your number one priority because, I guarantee it, you're the only one who is going to as long as you stay in that mess. Call your brother.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Aja

[Missy Vixen]

Anna's older brother Daniel - who also left ATI many years ago - sticks up for Anna. Calls Smuggar a "prik" and a "pig."  Read what he says about Anna and their parents. Both responses are totally what we predicted here. Anna just does not have it in her to leave. :(

 

 

https://instagram.com/p/6vQllYg4iM/

 

https://instagram.com/p/6vXxafA4jh/

I don't know much about him so I'm really shimmying out on the ledge here, but Daniel Keller FTW! Now THAT's a big brother.

 

Anna, take his offer. You might not be carrying Coach handbags and driving a Hummer 2 anymore, but you will be living with a family member who truly loves you and your kids.

[NextIteration]

In my head, the 2nd AM account was being paid for on the FRC credit card, chuckle.  Only reason the subscription stopped.  That's only in my mind though, nothing factual about it.  But it makes me laugh at FRC more, so there is that.

[subber]

Josh is 27 years old. Anna should be under no illusion that he will change his ways and be faithful the next 50+ years. Not going to happen. He's not the person she thought he was when she said I do, and, most likely, never will be. He seems to want a lot of sex with different partners. I would bet big that he paid for the extra-marital sex and only regrets that he was caught.

I hope for both of their sakes, they sit down with or without a counselor and have a heart to heart (no Boob or Michelle within 20 miles) to figure out where they go from here. He needs to for once in his life level with her about what he wants. Lots of speculation on here about what Anna should do. I think Josh needs to decide what he wants to do as well. They are both adults and need to put their families' opinions aside and focus on what's best for them and their children going forth.

[LilyoftheValley]

http://www.wetpaint.com/josh-duggar-okcupid-profile-2-1435006/

 

I'm not sure how successful the model's lawsuit will be if the state laws are mixed on subject, but it's another headache for Josh.

So far the guy's only damages are that he lost a DJing gig.  I don't think that will amount to more than a $1,000.  BTW none of this is identity theft, but there could be a cause of action for false light or defamation, but really I don't see it, and Josh's intent was never to harm this guy.

[JenCarroll]

I started to say that is a lot of missed days. Then I remembered that these women don't have so many periods as the rest of us.

Well, that's true; I hadn't really thought about that either, but AFAIK it's pretty much open season when the woman is pregnant.

Aaaand I'm starting to think way too closely about the sex lives of Josh and Anna Duggar. Ick.

[LilyoftheValley]

I have no idea what is going on with those Kellers. They always did look like weirdos to me. Mrs. keller looks like she checked out a long time ago. 

According to the brother, they are horrible people. I'm not sure the brother is very objective though. Clearly there is bad blood there...how does he know for sure what is going on? Doesn't seem he is in contact with any of them. I wish he is in contact with Anna though. Maybe he could give her some spunk. 

 

That sermon was so FREAKING AWFUL.  That minister is a punk for preaching that crap in the middle of the Duggar scandal.

 

His point is valid; a spouse should make sex a priority in marriage. BUT TO PREACH THAT AT THE DUGGAR'S (sometimes) CHURCH AT THIS TIME? How awful for Anna. Everyone who heard or read that immediately thinks that is a slam to Anna. 

 

Nice job there, mr minister. Making Anna look like crap while blaming Josh's behavior on culture? Yep, culture is all sexed up and often trashy. But every married man is not doing what Josh did. Josh is a douchebag. No excuses and don't blame the culture. 

 

Mr. Minister needs to refer to Jessa's Instagram post...jessa preached it better! 

The reason culture is like this is because men like Josh exist to begin with.  This guy has cause and effect reversed.  Culture is full of trashy sex stuff because the Josh Duggars of the world love it.  

[kokapetl]

So far the guy's only damages are that he lost a DJing gig. I don't think that will amount to more than a $1,000. BTW none of this is identity theft, but there could be a cause of action for false light or defamation, but really I don't see it, and Josh's intent was never to harm this guy.

The guy doesn't seem to be the litigious type, and he doesn't have a lawyer yet. Plus, Josh has no money, what's he gonna win, Josh and Anna's house?

[NextIteration]

All this Gothard rules of sex begs a couple questions for me, can they have sex when the female is pregnant?  I see that's not covered in the rules above, but clearly you are "wasting seed" because you can't get pregnant if you are pregnant, and what about sex that is not of the type that you get pregnant from?

 

Can you masturbate once you're hitched?  The mind boggles.

Edited August 24, 2015 by NextIteration

[Honey]

I think it was on his OK Cupid account where ge had to answer some questions, one of them was:

 

What does "wherefore" mean in wherefore are thou? ( like Romeo and Juliet).

 

Josh the genius answered "where".  What a complete idiot he is.

[NewDigs]

The guy doesn't seem to be the litigious type, and he doesn't have a lawyer yet. Plus, Josh has no money, what's he gonna win, Josh and Anna's house?

If he's smart he'll win enough publicity to make some money.

Grab it while ya' got it. Publicity is a flash in the pan. Time for a little self-promotion.

I guess I'm a heathen.

[Missy Vixen]

Poor Anna, it's not easy to leave everything you have ever known. It takes a very very strong person. She has never had to make her own decesions or had any say in her own life. How can she be expected to do that over night? I think people who expect her to pack up and leave are viewing the situation through the eyes of someone who realizes they have choices.

If there's one thing I would wish for Anna right now, I hope that she has a friend. Maybe she met someone in DC that she hit it off with, a friend from her old neighborhood or whatever. Someone she can call that's not making money off her and not pressuring her because a divorce in either family would hurt their "image".

 

I think Anna is reeling. I also think she's in shock. Let's face it -- I don't care for her smugness, her homophobia or her religious beliefs, but if there was one thing we all need, it's a friend that's going to listen and hopefully can inch her closer to that "I have options. And I have to get myself and my kids out of this" realization. At the very least, I hope she told Smuggar to pack himself up and go live at the TTH for a while. Or, he can go bunk with Jessa Blessa and Bin. After all, Jessa Blessa is so forgiving.

 

I used to think I would never wish something like this on another human being. I'm thinking Jessa Blessa needs a taste of her own medicine.

[Defrauder]

And in Quiverfull-land the penis reigns supreme.

And as we have seen penis does not equate with genius in Quiverfull-land no matter how much they want it to.

[NewDigs]

And as we have seen penis does not equate with genius in Quiverfull-land no matter how much they want it to.

Yeah. It's much easier to picture a penis with crown and scepter (and thank you zenme for that original thought-image, I think.) than a penis with a mortarboard.

edited for spelling

Edited August 24, 2015 by NewDigs

[SometimesBites]

Agree so much with Aja's post above: Josh's entire life has supported him in remaining a serial cheater.

 

"Consequences" are only theoretical for Joshua J. Duggar. He has a lifelong pattern of being deviant (or devious), getting caught, profusely apologizing (with a 'soft heart' and tears, I'm sure--probably some breast-beating and sworn vows of change thrown in for good measure), then going on to act on his sexual whims/compulsions again. And again, and so on, until he completes the cycle and gets caught.

 

As another poster so aptly reminded, Anna should forget the precepts of Gothard, her parents, and her in-laws, and meditate on the words of Maya Angelou: "When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE THEM." True personal change is possible, but it is REALLY TOUGH, and Joshie don't do really tough.

[galax-arena]

What does "wherefore" mean in wherefore are thou? ( like Romeo and Juliet).

Josh the genius answered "where".  What a complete idiot he is.

You know, I don't expect everyone to be familiar with Shakespeare's English. I do consider OKC questions like this to be important in deciding whether someone's worth your time, but maybe not in the way that people would assume. I figure, okay, in this age of the Internet, you can find out the answer to that sort of question in two seconds flat. So what excuse is there for getting the answer wrong? If you get it wrong, it means not only are you ignorant about this particular word (which is understandable) but that you perhaps lack the general intellectual acuity to recognize your own shortcomings and weaknesses. I'm more impatient with the latter than the former. I'd respect someone whose thought process went like this:

 

"Hmm, okay, that seems like an obvious question. "Wherefore" has the word "where" so it obviously must mean "where." But... I don't know. That seems too easy. And this is Shakespeare we're talking about, with all those thees and thous. I'm not even sure if that dude was speaking English half the time. I should google it just to make sure."

 

So when I see that someone got the question right, I don't automatically assume that they're a smartypants when it comes to Shakespeare, but I do assume that at the very least they cared enough to make sure they got the answer right. And that they were resourceful enough to figure out the answer.

 

And if they get the question wrong and mark it as being "very important"? Well then.

 

tl;dr - Apparently I have a lot of ~feelings when it comes to OK Cupid questions. 

[Defrauder]

I was just coming here to post exactly this. Josh's life has been appallingly consequence-free. He violated his sisters in the most disgusting, traumatizing way possible and life basically went on as before. No real treatment and reassurances that God and his sisters forgave him. A few years later, he's a reality TV star, his wedding is televised, he lands a job in DC making a salary I don't even want to think about to basically carry on being an entitled, hypocritical douche. The molestation scandal breaks. His mother and father go on national TV all indignant with the whole sleeping/clothes/didn't know what happened/forgiveness/long time ago/evil liberal media crap and two of his sisters that he VIOLATED follow suit. The WOMEN he VIOLATED as LITTLE GIRLS (who also happen to be his SISTERS) go on national TV and say "Oh my goodness shut up y'all! It was so long ago!" If Josh's sense of immunity wasn't already cemented at that point, I'm sure that did the trick. The fact that he frantically tried to cancel his Ashley Madison accounts only AFTER the molestation scandal broke just proves that he doesn't give a shit about God or Christian values or his "precious wife Anna" at all. Now this happens and all accounts indicate that Anna is flatly refusing to even consider making Josh face any consequences for it, and is in fact even accepting at least part of the blame herself. She's basically guaranteeing that shit like this will continue to happen to her and continue to get worse. Anna darling, at some point you're going to have to face it. You DID make a mistake. You married one of the stupidest losers on the planet. But it's not unfixable by any stretch, and it's largely not your fault. You trusted that the people closest to you were encouraging you and giving you advice based on what was in your best interest and this whole time they've been using you for their own selfish gain. Your parents, your husband, your batshit in-laws--they're only thinking of one person when they open their mouths and speak to you, and it isn't you or your kids. YOU are in charge of YOU. YOU are in charge of your children. You need to make yourself and your kids your number one priority because, I guarantee it, you're the only one who is going to as long as you stay in that mess. Call your brother.

Go girl! You say it like it is.  Mail to Anna, personal and confidential to be opened by addressee only.

[3girlsforus]

 

Josh probably has his phone, computer and any other contact with the outside world taken away. 

 

This is probably true but also super stupid. Is Josh really being faithful if he can only keep away from these activities by taking all the ability to do so away? If my husband only not cheating on me because he is being watched 24/7, then he might as well be cheating on me.

[Happyfatchick]

I'm still seething about that, and I saw these posts a couple of hours ago. What kind of parents DO that to a daughter who is being made a complete fool by her cuckolding husband? Fuck you, Ma and Pa Keller. I have seen it with their two youngest boys being sent to the Wallers on many occasions; they are DESPERATE to have no more of their kids leave Gothardism. 

 

And Pa Keller is NOT a high-ranking person in ATI. I don't know how that rumor started, but it's just not true. They are just suck-up true believers.  The prison ministry has only gained some esteem in the past few years because of David Waller. It wasn't because of his FIL, other than that he facilitates the Journey to the Heart for the kids to come down to preach to the inmates. Waller facilitated all of that from his position at Gothard HQ. 

 

But back on topic, with parents like these, who needs enemies? Poor, poor Anna. Not only does she not have the courage to leave, she has almost no support to do so. I hope she really understands what Daniel is willing to do for her here and maybe take him up on this in the next few weeks once things die down a bit.

Sew, I haven't seen this post. The one that made you puke a little. Can you post it here, or a link? Thanks! (I want to be livid too!!!)

[kokapetl]

I'm still seething about that, and I saw these posts a couple of hours ago. What kind of parents DO that to a daughter who is being made a complete fool by her cuckolding husband? Fuck you, Ma and Pa Keller. I have seen it with their two youngest boys being sent to the Wallers on many occasions; they are DESPERATE to have no more of their kids leave Gothardism.

And Pa Keller is NOT a high-ranking person in ATI. I don't know how that rumor started, but it's just not true. They are just suck-up true believers. The prison ministry has only gained some esteem in the past few years because of David Waller. It wasn't because of his FIL, other than that he facilitates the Journey to the Heart for the kids to come down to preach to the inmates. Waller facilitated all of that from his position at Gothard HQ.

But back on topic, with parents like these, who needs enemies? Poor, poor Anna. Not only does she not have the courage to leave, she has almost no support to do so. I hope she really understands what Daniel is willing to do for her here and maybe take him up on this in the next few weeks once things die down a bit.

This is why I hope that by JimChelle being pissed off with Josh they understand Anna's situation and support her. Her own parents are far too deep into a "hair shirt" martyr lifestyle to help her.

[graefin]

This is probably true but also super stupid. Is Josh really being faithful if he can only keep away from these activities by taking all the ability to do so away? If my husband only not cheating on me because he is being watched 24/7, then he might as well be cheating on me.

It's stupid, but this is exactly how this family has structured their entire life. Look at the rules they put on the kids: "NIKE!"; no going anywhere without an "accountability partner"; no dancing; etc. etc.

[Missy Vixen]

You know, I don't expect everyone to be familiar with Shakespeare's English. I do consider OKC questions like this to be important in deciding whether someone's worth your time, but maybe not in the way that people would assume.

I'm guessing that Josh has never had any experience whatsoever with Shakespeare. Shakespeare probably wasn't addressed in the Wisdom Booklets. The Duggar family does not read. (Well, anything except the Bible and "Christian" YA novels.) He also probably thinks Google searches are a waste of his big brain as well.

 

Heads-up to Smuggar: If you want to lie about being a college graduate, MOST college grads (and even a few who did not graduate) have some familiarity with Shakespeare and his works.

[Buggin]

With regards to the "rules", doesn't she still have to submit to her husband? Like if Josh came to her on Saturday night and wanted sex, would she be able to use the rules as an out?

[Missy Vixen]

This is why I hope that by JimChelle being pissed off with Josh they understand Anna's situation and support her. Her own parents are far too deep into a "hair shirt" martyr lifestyle to help her.

They're not going to help Anna. They have NO compassion for her situation. Helping Anna will not get them back on TV right now, either, and I'm sure every waking hour is consumed with strategies on how to accomplish that feat.

 

They have already shown they don't care about collateral damage re: Smuggar. HE'S the one that needs help; they've shown it repeatedly.

 

These are not people that have the normal amount of compassion for another person in trouble or any caring at all about their grandchildren. It's all about them. Always has been, always will be, and let's hope the other kids in the family have taken note enough to realize they need to GET OUT.

[3girlsforus]

Go girl! You say it like it is.  Mail to Anna, personal and confidential to be opened by addressee only.

 

i wonder if Anna has the ability to open anything personally. I fear she has no confidentiality in her life. I suspect the Duggars and Kellers are rallying around her under the pretense of "support" but in reality are making sure no seeds of questioning Josh begin to root. That could even be why her brother chose to be public in his slams of Josh. I wouldn't be surprised if they are trying to keep him from speaking to Anna.

[Churchhoney]

I meant more along the lines of making your spouse and their sexual needs important in your life. My husband and whatever he needs (sex, help with work, a date night, taking care of the XYZ) is a priority for me. Not an obsession but a priority. I know I am his priority also...that includes regular life stuff, sex and making sure sex is good for both of us. 

The minister was aiming at that you should not deny your spouse sex, use it as a weapon in an argument, withold etc. His basic thoughts were not crazy but the TIMING???  There is a time and place for everything...this was neither the time nor the place. 

 

I think the idea that the sermon itself was somehow insensitive of Anna Duggar is based on some misapprehensions.

 

 Cross Church is a huge institution, with multiple campuses, tons of people. It is not, in fact, the Duggars' church in any way shape or form. Its pastor, Ronnie Floyd, is the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and Jim Bob's clan -- and Anna's clan -- are emphatically not Southern Baptists and do not now nor ever have had a connection of any kind to that church, and they're not even members of the denomination.

 

Derick has gone there (although I don't know for how long) as has Jill, but Derick and Jill are a tiny drop in a giant congregational bucket of people who have zero to do with the Duggars. And this Sunday's sermon was the opening to a five-week series that's been planned, announced and advertised for at least weeks, and likely for months. And Josh's new ill-doing became public knowledge on, what, Wednesday?  Asking that a big institution with virtually no relation to the Duggars change a long-held plan at a moments' notice to spare Anna's feelings doesn't make any sense, it seems to me. She certainly isn't a member, and she wouldn't have gone looking for broadcasts of their sermons. They have nothing to do with her and had no reason whatsoever to be changing their plans on her account. She never would have known that sermon happened except for her brother-in-law.

 

If anything, maybe Derick shouldn't have posted the thing. He is closely allied with the Duggars and knows Anna, so maybe he should have thought about sparing her feelings. But he certainly didn't.

 

If there is a problem, the problem is Derick's, not the pastor's.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

Unfortunately for Anna, there is a very fine line between being disappointed for someone and being disappointed in them. She has public support right now (outside the confines of Gothard and the Duggars) to leave her husband. Nobody thinks it would be easy either logistically or emotionally. However, there are two things she needs to think about in regard to staying with Josh.

 

1. What message is she sending to Josh? Is her staying giving him a green light to cheat again? That's clearly the message he got on the molestation issue. He "confessed" as a teenager and nothing much changed for him. Now he's been caught cheating - he didn't confess; he was caught. Her staying with him without major changes in his behavior and the way he is treated is nothing more than her handing him the credit card next time. 

 

2. What message is she sending to her children? How does she explain any of this to them when they are older? No matter how sheltered the M-kids might be with homeschooling and lack of interaction, someone will spill the beans at some point. Is forgiveness more important than self-respect? Is forgiveness more important than the safety of her daughters? I've had those conversations with my parents (not the cheating but the sex abuse by a neighbor). I wouldn't wish them on anyone. It took a long time and a lot of therapy to get to the point that I could realize my parents were just as much victims.

 

I'm not saying that Josh would or could hurt his own daughters - I am not qualified to make that statement. I'm just saying that Anna - as the good parent - has to be ready to answer some questions if her children raise them in the future. How comfortable is she that her husband won't do something similar or worse next time? 

 

I think that, unfortunately, we already know that for the Duggars -- and maybe also for the Keller parents if they indeed pushed for the Anna-Josh marriage after they knew the entire molestation story -- the answer to the bolded questions is an emphatic "yes."

 

Which I guess kind of suggests that for Anna to do any of the things that most everybody here and in the world at large thinks she ought to do -- even the mildest of them, such as take a break and think things through -- she'd really have to leave this whole belief system she's enmeshed in.

 

I don't believe she'll do that.

[LilyoftheValley]

With regards to the "rules", doesn't she still have to submit to her husband? Like if Josh came to her on Saturday night and wanted sex, would she be able to use the rules as an out?

  I would think that a decent and sympathetic husband would not demand it at a time like this, but we're talking about Josh Duggar here.  

Edited August 24, 2015 by bigskygirl
No proof of rape.

[kokapetl]

Do Baptists do annulments?

[Churchhoney]

This is probably true but also super stupid. Is Josh really being faithful if he can only keep away from these activities by taking all the ability to do so away? If my husband only not cheating on me because he is being watched 24/7, then he might as well be cheating on me.

 

That's sort of the whole Duggar "philosophy" (and Gothard's as well), though, isn't it? They don't seem to allow anything to go on without the promise of some kind of "accountability partner" or "Nike shouter." They don't seem to believe that anyone can control their own impulses regarding anything. I guess I chalk that up to Gothard and Jim Bob and maybe Michelle being so bad at controlling their own impulses that they simply believe it's true for everyone -- and that it can't be fixed. What an appalling and terrifying world view. Also explains why they think education is meaningless, too, I guess. We're all just Pavlov's dogs. ... Horrible

Edited August 24, 2015 by Churchhoney

[NewDigs]

They've been abused in varying degrees their entire lives.

They are so afraid.

Easy to ask, Why doesn't she leave?

Answers are tough.

Her mind is chaos.

Frightened chaos.

[JenCarroll]

I'm not sure which thread this should go on, really, but this is a sample of some conversation on the Sweet Fellowship thread, back in April before Joshgate 1.0 broke. Funnily enough, we were speculating on which one of these guys was likely to have the first scandal. (Posting it on the Josh and Anna thread because Josh turns out to be our guy.) Props to Fostermom who called it correctly!

***

I would not be surprised at all if one of these paragons of manhood takes a fall eventually, a much harder fall than Gothard's. They're so impressed with themselves, eventually they'll believe they're unassailable -- and that's when one of them will get caught with a prostitute (either sex) or a baby on the side (that'll be Jim Bob). My money's on TFDW because no one can contain that much frustration forever, and I suspect he's a very angry person, deep down. Second choice, Jim Bob, who will obviously need to prove his masculinity to himself now that the baby factory is shut down. Josh as a dark horse contender. Smug and stupid and famous, an excellent recipe for an off-the-rails disaster.

 

 

He would actually be my leading contender. Anna has gone over the edge with the baby obsession. Josh obviously loves his kids and I think he's a good dad, but i also think he's more than done with the constant "blessings" Anna is looking to catch. Sex on the side could be his out in the future. I could see him having a mistress, one who does everything  possible to NOT get pregnant every 15 months.

  

Don't forget Derrick. He's a nice guy, so I can't see him sleeping with another woman. He'd probably love to pay a prostitute to sit quietly, and let him finish a few sentences without interruption. That'd be better than sex, for him.

 

 

Hmmm....first of these guys to stray. And someone will. Statistics alone say so. I'll think about it and get back to you...

  

That would mean there most be another person willing to have sweet fellowship with Joshua. While he might have the fundy girls fawning over him, I can't see him attracting many mainstream ladies. And the fundy girls might covet him, but would they actually do it?

***

  

One of the concrete things I learned from my ex-husband is that there is someone out there that wants the person you have difficulty imagining being desired.

***

*** Quotes edited for length.

[Defrauder]

Luckily for Anna that according to Gothard's rules for fools she doesn't have to have sex for 80 days since she just gave birth to a girl.  She should have about 40 days left.

[SometimesBites]

They're not going to help Anna. They have NO compassion for her situation. Helping Anna will not get them back on TV right now, either, and I'm sure every waking hour is consumed with strategies on how to accomplish that feat.

 

They have already shown they don't care about collateral damage re: Smuggar. HE'S the one that needs help; they've shown it repeatedly.

 

These are not people that have the normal amount of compassion for another person in trouble or any caring at all about their grandchildren. It's all about them. Always has been, always will be, and let's hope the other kids in the family have taken note enough to realize they need to GET OUT.

I tend to agree--any so-called compassion Anna gets will be wholly contingent on her cooperation with the Duggar machine. No matter how much lip service gets paid to supporting her, there is going to be this icky question about whether her sex life with Josh is a contributing factor. The reality is that, no matter what rules Anna and Josh espouse or what general impressions the rest of the world may have, absolutely NO ONE can make the least speculation about Anna and Josh's sex life. And the fact is, the nature of their sex life (whether it is/was pallid and infrequent or nightly swinging from the chandeliers) has Z.E.R.O. to do with Josh's choice to cheat. He's a lying, hypocritical cheater who cheats, and I'm convinced that would be true no matter what.

 

True story: way back in the late 1970s, one week before my wedding day (1st husband), we were telephoned by church elders and notified that the man who was supposed to be marrying us had been caught cheating on his wife. Not only would we need to choose someone else to officiate our wedding, but that night at church the whole mess was going to be put up on stage so "Bob" could confess before the congregation. We got to church that night, sick at heart, and ended up sitting right behind the woman "Bob" had been cheating with. We sat through the entire service, then came the big confession. Well, not only did "Bob" have to come to the microphone and confess, but they made his sweet wife--who was EIGHT MONTHS PREGNANT--stand up there with him and "confess" her part in his infidelity. I can't even remember what she said...it was perfectly awful, and so obvious that she was absolutely not responsible in any way for the despicable thing "Bob" had done. Oh, and the homewrecker "Bob" had slept with didn't have to go up on stage at all. Isn't that special?

[LilyoftheValley]

Do Baptists do annulments?

Even if they did, from a legal point of view, Anna would not be able to get an annulment, just a divorce.  

[kokapetl]

Even if they did, from a legal point of view, Anna would not be able to get an annulment, just a divorce.

Why not? Josh lied when he said his vows, or at best, didn't really understand what they meant. Edited August 24, 2015 by Kokapetl

[LilyoftheValley]

Why not? Josh lied when he said his vows, or at best, didn't really understand what they meant.

Because lying does not always rise to the level of fraud.   A divorce is actually better for Anna because under the divorce, her children would not be considered illegitimate. 

[kokapetl]

Because lying does not always rise to the level of fraud. A divorce is actually better for Anna because under the divorce, her children would not be considered illegitimate.

They wouldn't be considered illegitimate through annulment. This is what I've been told by Catholics, though.

[Sew Sumi]

With regards to the "rules", doesn't she still have to submit to her husband? Like if Josh came to her on Saturday night and wanted sex, would she be able to use the rules as an out?

No. His house, his rules. 

[LilyoftheValley]

They wouldn't be considered illegitimate through annulment. This is what I've been told by Catholics, though.

That makes no sense; an annulment means that the two were never married.  But whatever, I don't want to get too far off topic.  At the end to the day it does not matter because Anna could not get an annulment under Arkansas law.  And it really, really does not matter because Anna won't leave that creep.  

[not2serious]

They wouldn't be considered illegitimate through annulment. This is what I've been told by Catholics, though.

 

It's not necessary in the Baptist church, because the Baptist church recognizes divorce as valid, in most cases.  The Catholic Church doesn't consider divorce a sin at all; remarrying without an annulment is adultery, because the Church doesn't recognize civil divorce as having done anything at all spiritually.  You might as well still be married, as far as they're concerned.  In most Baptist churches I've attended, the divorce itself is treated as an act of adultery, but it is recognized as spiritually valid.  In the strictest churches, you might have to repent for your divorce.  In my church, it is treated like every other sin, between you and God, and in most cases, you're allowed to remarry without any real trouble.   It's hard to say anything about what "the Baptist church" teaches, though, because Baptist churches are only associated by choice; there is no real hierarchy, session, presbytery, whatever to appeal to.  You can be dropped from an association if your church goes way off, but you can still call yourself Baptist.

 

Keep in mind that ATI is a parachurch organization, and that the members belong to different churches.  My friend is a member of a Reformed Presbyterian church, and they've dealt with Gothardites.  Her church is WAY more conservative than mine, but even they think ATI is weird.  And the non-denominational Bible church I attended in college had ATI members as part of the church.  Josh and Anna aren't really Baptist in the sense that say, I am.  I belong to, and pay tithes to, and work in ministries at, a Baptist church.  The Duggars don't seem to have any accountability outside of their own family. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by not2serious

[Aja]

I have to wonder. When the door is closed and it's just Anna and her ball and chain, does she keep on staring at him adoringly? Just how deep does this pathos go? Having been married myself for a very long time to a very big douche (although it must be said, Josh Duggar makes my ex look like...um...some guy famous for being a terrific husband...?...mind is blank), it's impossible for me not to put myself in her situation. I know Anna and I are two very, very different girls, but good lord, she has to have SOME sense of self, doesn't she? Like when Josh comes walking in with mustard stains on his shirt and crumbs around his mouth with his doughboy muffin top spilling over his belt buckle, does she at least roll her eyes when she thinks he can't see?