S01.E08: The Call of the Wild

[stagmania]

I think that's why the judge asked for the count-to determine how close they were. If it was 10-2, he probably would have sent them back in the hopes that the two holdouts could be convinced. But a 6-6 deadlock? Very unlikely that six people will turn when they have plenty of others who agree with them. That was one aspect of the court part of the story that made sense to me.

[Neurochick]

10 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I think that's why the judge asked for the count-to determine how close they were. If it was 10-2, he probably would have sent them back in the hopes that the two holdouts could be convinced. But a 6-6 deadlock? Very unlikely that six people will turn when they have plenty of others who agree with them. That was one aspect of the court part of the story that made sense to me.

I agree; a 6-6 deadlock, is very unlikely to go one way or another.  Ultimately it is the judge's decision, but they can't force the jury to come to any decision.  And they shouldn't, no one should be pressured vote for a verdict they don't believe it.

And the part that was real for me was how Naz was ruined by being a Rikers.  I loved what Stone said about the whole thing.  He was very right.  Technically, everybody at Rikers is innocent until proven guilty, but you'd never know that from looking at Rikers.  Maybe the legal stuff was off, but this was a drama, not a documentary, but the prison stuff, and how Naz's life is changed forever, wasn't.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Neurochick

[ganesh]

It looks like the courtroom plot was the weakest part of the series overall. I think they either should have focused much much more on Naz and the family, or strictly on Stone. Because we didn't just see enough of Naz's descent in prison. It was just like he's there and then he's doing drugs and setting up murder. If we're only on Stone's pov, then we'd only see Naz when he visited him and only get brief snapshots of him. 

If we're only on Naz, then we only see snapshots of how the case is going until the trial.

I still don't think the show knew what it wanted to be, and as a result each plot had shortcomings that really made it hard to buy in. 

[MaggieG]

When Stone dropped the cat off back at the shelter I howled "NOOOOOOO!" When Stone walked out the door in the last scene, I said to my husband "he better be going to get the cat." And then the cat ran by and we both cheered. #catlove

John T was pretty amazing in his closing arguments. I enjoyed this show. If it has a second season, I would like Stone to come back for a different case. And Box out of retirement.

[watch2much]

15 hours ago, stagmania said:

I absolutely loved Stone's closing argument. That was a great showcase for John Turturro and the standout moment of the finale (and possibly the entire series) for me.

I was somewhere between a shrug and an eyeroll for most of the rest.

totally agree.  He should get an award for his performance.  I thought he was great throughout the entire series.

[Neurochick]

Hopefully this will work.

The cat.

BTW, the actor who played the judge, wasn't he Remus on Boardwalk Empire?

Edited August 29, 2016 by Neurochick

[iMonrey]

Quote

When Stone dropped the cat off back at the shelter I howled "NOOOOOOO!" When Stone walked out the door in the last scene, I said to my husband "he better be going to get the cat." And then the cat ran by and we both cheered. #catlove

I think the fact that I cared more about the cat than I cared about Naz is indicative of a serious problem this show had in making me connect with the lead character. Granted I'm an animal lover at heart but at the very least I should have cared about Naz as much as I cared about the cat, if not more. And while I'm sure there was a deliberate attempt to make Naz somewhat enigmatic to keep the viewers guessing, I'm not sure a story like this works if you don't really care one way or another whether the main character is found guilty or innocent, or whether he's freed from prison or has to spend the rest of his life there, or gets killed there. I didn't really care where Naz wound up so long as I felt the story was finished. 

The cat, I cared about.

[watch2much]

I agree with most of the comments here about the story being less than it could have been.  I like the idea of limited series but this one probably could have been a bit longer.  It seemed rushed and thus character development and motivation suffered.  However, I enjoyed it and chose to look past it's flaws. Stone's closing statement was great. I had been ambivalent about Naz at that point but Stone made me remember his innocence at the start.  And, I, too, cheered at the end for the cat.  I think he realized that his condition would wax and wane whether the cat was there or not. 

[ganesh]

I'm a dog person and even I was rooting for the cat. 

If they wanted to cover all these angles, investigation, jail, family, trial, then they needed more episodes. For 8 episodes you need a limited focus. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

It looks like the courtroom plot was the weakest part of the series overall.

The courtroom plot may have been the weakest link, but the courtroom scenes had me absolutely riveted.

[kieyra]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think the fact that I cared more about the cat than I cared about Naz is indicative of a serious problem this show had in making me connect with the lead character. Granted I'm an animal lover at heart but at the very least I should have cared about Naz as much as I cared about the cat, if not more. And while I'm sure there was a deliberate attempt to make Naz somewhat enigmatic to keep the viewers guessing, I'm not sure a story like this works if you don't really care one way or another whether the main character is found guilty or innocent, or whether he's freed from prison or has to spend the rest of his life there, or gets killed there. I didn't really care where Naz wound up so long as I felt the story was finished. 

The cat, I cared about.

I'm an animal/cat lover too, and I agree with the above but I'll take it one step further:

I felt the stuff with the cat was shamelessly manipulative. The Cat as a proxy for Naz couldn't have been any less subtle, but they also went out of their way to make you worry about the cat, right up to the ASPCA ad that I suspect a lot of us avoid like the plague. I mean, yes, art is supposed to make us feel stuff, but something about animals just seems too easy. Like when shows like GoT or TWD/FTWD use animal deaths for cheap shock and to get people talking online. This show basically did the opposite to us.

But having the general reaction to your prestige HBO drama be: Thank God the cat is okay ...  just seems like a hollow victory.

Or maybe they read this book too many times and took it literally:

https://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009

[Neurochick]

I think the stuff with the cat was deliberate.  I think it was done on purpose.  I remember the case of Michael Vick and the dogfighting.  People were very upset about dogfighting, which was understandable, but I remember someone asking me if people would have been as upset if he'd been accused of domestic abuse, or if he'd beaten his children; and I remember sitting and thinking, "probably not." 

So I think the cat was a conscious decision, the writers probably knew there would be a segment of the population who would care more about the well being of the cat, than a human being.  And in the end, the cat got a happy ending.

[FozzyBear]

My quick run down to some issues:

I think part of Naz's transformation was due to him not actually being 100% sure he didn't kill the girl and like 75% sure he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison either way. He's a kid from a strict immigrant family in New York. He's probably pretty good at code switching to begin with so once the reality of his situation set in he probably did what's he's done since starting kindergarten, learn to adapt real quick.

I think the prosecution went after him because just about everything pointed to him. It really was a good case. I think they were reluctant to switch tracks because he looks guilty as hell. Even Nas isn't sure he didn't do it.

I think Chandra was lost and alone and miserable and fell for a "saving the bad boy" fantasy. Her attraction to Nas really seemed to grow as he became a "proper convict" so maybe she's got a thing for bad boys. She probably developed some weird idea about how she would save him from prison and he would come out bad, but not too bad, and they would live happily ever after and have lots of hot sex of the kind she maybe thinks she's isn't supposed to want.  She seemed to HATE her life and Nas offered this romantic story of star crossed lovers just when she needed it.

[kieyra]

Quote

I think part of Naz's transformation was due to him not actually being 100% sure he didn't kill the girl and like 75% sure he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison either way.

For those who found this aspect interesting, I really recommend Rectify. I won't say more because spoilers. 

[Gobi]

15 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

what was bs bout the dear head? sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

The effing deer head got more screen time than the killer.

[Neurochick]

16 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I think part of Naz's transformation was due to him not actually being 100% sure he didn't kill the girl and like 75% sure he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison either way. He's a kid from a strict immigrant family in New York. He's probably pretty good at code switching to begin with so once the reality of his situation set in he probably did what's he's done since starting kindergarten, learn to adapt real quick.

I think that's why it seemed easy for him to transition to life in prison.  He's probably had to transition many times, in many different groups.

 

16 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I think Chandra was lost and alone and miserable and fell for a "saving the bad boy" fantasy. Her attraction to Nas really seemed to grow as he became a "proper convict" so maybe she's got a thing for bad boys. She probably developed some weird idea about how she would save him from prison and he would come out bad, but not too bad, and they would live happily ever after and have lots of hot sex of the kind she maybe thinks she's isn't supposed to want.  She seemed to HATE her life and Nas offered this romantic story of star crossed lovers just when she needed it.

That's a very good point.  The thing about this show is, they never really showed you anything outright, but it was in the small moments.  Chandra drinking too much with Stone.  I got the feeling she was going to sleep with him, but the show didn't go that more typical route.  Chandra was looking for something.  I think she found that something in Naz.  It kind of reminds me of this, she was looking for someone and Naz was there:

Edited August 29, 2016 by Neurochick

[stagmania]

12 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I think Chandra was lost and alone and miserable and fell for a "saving the bad boy" fantasy. Her attraction to Nas really seemed to grow as he became a "proper convict" so maybe she's got a thing for bad boys. She probably developed some weird idea about how she would save him from prison and he would come out bad, but not too bad, and they would live happily ever after and have lots of hot sex of the kind she maybe thinks she's isn't supposed to want.  She seemed to HATE her life and Nas offered this romantic story of star crossed lovers just when she needed it.

Almost none of that was actually onscreen, and I really didn't get the impression Chandra was looking for a relationship with Naz or thought she was in love with him at all. She barely knew him, as evidenced by all the times she was shocked by something he did. We didn't see them connect on any sort of personal level; hell, we barely know enough about either one of them to be able to extrapolate what their connection could be based on. 

8 minutes ago, kieyra said:

For those who found this aspect interesting, I really recommend Rectify. I won't say more because spoilers. 

Seconded. I just finished watching this series and it handled these themes so much more thoughtfully.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

The effing deer head got more screen time than the killer.

I agree. I would have preferred a little less of the deer head and a more nuanced intro to the psycho Financial Planner (who also served as the Boyfriend and a serial killer). His eagerness to throw Stepdad under the bus was kind of a red flag.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[watch2much]

This series needed more episodes.  Maybe if they had showed Chandra more upset about the break up with her boyfriend then it would have been more believable that she'd kiss Naz.  I'm currently suffering through American Gothic.  That show should be only 8 episodes and this one should have been 13.

[ganesh]

19 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I think part of Naz's transformation was due to him not actually being 100% sure he didn't kill the girl and like 75% sure he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison either way. He's a kid from a strict immigrant family in New York. He's probably pretty good at code switching to begin with so once the reality of his situation set in he probably did what's he's done since starting kindergarten, learn to adapt real quick.

That's fair, but adapting in this case is becoming a drug addict and accessory to premeditated murder seemingly in the span of like 5 days. It seemed a little much and more insight into his transformation would have made a good tv show. 

Quote

What was bs bout the dear head? sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Is that really the case on tv though? Everything is Something on tv. Given we were anviled into next week with Symbolism of Cat, zooming in on the deer head like 75 times is going to lead most viewers to ask why. That's fairly reasonable to think that there is significance to it. It's like the lollipop on Mr. Robot. Now that we know there's nothing to the deer head, it was a stupid thing to do. Unless the overall point was to generate the question as to why a 23 y/o woman lives in a house like that. Which was unnecessary because they actually showed the house and we asked that. So it was pointless and a waste of time. I don't get it. 

[Brooklynista]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Hopefully this will work.

The cat.

BTW, the actor who played the judge, wasn't he Remus on Boardwalk Empire?

Remus is glad you remembered who he was.

[The Hound Lives]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I think the fact that I cared more about the cat than I cared about Naz is indicative of a serious problem this show had in making me connect with the lead character. Granted I'm an animal lover at heart but at the very least I should have cared about Naz as much as I cared about the cat, if not more. And while I'm sure there was a deliberate attempt to make Naz somewhat enigmatic to keep the viewers guessing, I'm not sure a story like this works if you don't really care one way or another whether the main character is found guilty or innocent, or whether he's freed from prison or has to spend the rest of his life there, or gets killed there. I didn't really care where Naz wound up so long as I felt the story was finished. 

The cat, I cared about.

I am on the flip-side of this. Don't get me wrong, I felt bad for the cat but I wasn't invested in the fur-baby's arc. I am a cat person but unless the story is specifically about a four-legged friend, for me, they don't even factor into the story. 
I connected emotionally with Naz, Stone (and what the kitty represented about Stone), the Khan family, even with Box but I can totally see how a story like this doesn't work if there isn't a connection with the main players. 

And it's a good thing I'm not a lawyer (and not living in a televised universe) because I would've totally made-out with Naz, career be damned. Smuggling drugs in the hooch? Probably not but there is something kind of dangerous (well, very dangerous), which then becomes exciting, about possibly getting caught. This was foreplay. Stupid and dangerous but total emotional foreplay. 
Good Pakistani boys and good Hindu girls don't do those things, right? They do what is expected. Until they don't and we are left shaking our heads like a behavior is "out of character". Thing is, we just don't know what is out of character for any of them because, as we learned with Naz, at first blush we see one person. A second viewing and they morph into someone totally different. By the third, they can become unrecognizable. 
I think that is actually the most realistic piece of the entire series for me. 
See...I look at it like this. Naz was a "good boy". Doing what people told him to do. We know he isn't some innocent kid but in matters of passion, he was a bit green. This unassuming Paki kid, peddling some pills here and there but still adhering to all the rules of home life. A good Muslim boy. Not sexually experienced. I can imagine that for Chandra, her life was pretty similar. She isn't a seasoned veteran. She probably isn't even as sexually innocent as Naz but the conservative upbringing, in a religious home, shapes her story to be a bit more like his. 
But there is something alluring about being bad, even when you know it's wrong and go against everything you were raised to do. 

Edited August 29, 2016 by The Hound Lives
I always have more to add!

[Gobi]

I have it on good authority that there will be a second season, continuing the investigation of the murder. Here's what really happened.

Financial Planner Guy (FPG) and Evil Stepdad (ESD), far from being enemies, were good friends. Often they would get together and talk about how unfair it was that a young druggie had all that money. FPG tried the romance angle with Andrea, but it didn't pan out.

Finally, FPG and ESD decided that Andrea's death would be best for everyone, even her, as she was sure to overdose sooner or later. Neither one wanted to commit the act. ESD had a way. He knew of a crimelord in Queens, who still ran things from prison. 

ESD contacted Freddy through his people. Freddy was willing to arrange the murder for $300,000 up front. Hesitant at first, FPG and ESD decided to take the money from Andrea's account. If questioned later, FPG would say Andrea wanted the money; he didn't know why, and advised against it, but it was her money and there was nothing he could do about it.

Freddy put the word out to her dealer that Andrea was to be given any drugs she wanted, without question, even if she couldn't pay. This maximized the chance of her being high when the time came.

Dwayne Reade  and Trevor were hired for the hit. Dwayne was the knife man, Trevor, the lookout.  Andrea was to be killed in her apartment, then the body would be taken in Creepy Hearse Driver's hearse to be dumped someone  else. ESD had additional insurance, an effing  Deer head that contained a nanny cam that recorded and preserved what went on in the brownstone. If things got hot for him, he would "remember" it and tell the police.

FPG would stage an argument with Andrea about  her drug use, then call or text her later that night. He would then go to the brownstone, claiming  to be concerned about her, and report her missing.

Dwayne got carried away, stabbing Andrea too many times, making such a mess that Trevor called off Creepy Hearse Driver and he and Dwayne  fled.

When FPG arrived, he saw Naz passed out, and figured letting him take the blame was the best thing to do.

When Naz was sent to Rikers, Freddy couldn't believe his luck. Pretending to protect Naz, Freddy molded him into the image of a hardened con for the jury to see.

Everything was going fine, when Freddy' s man in homicide, Box's partner, told him that Box was investigating the  murder again, and it could get dicey. Knowing Chandra had smuggled drugs for Naz, Freddy checked the videos to see if there was anything else she had done that could be used. The kiss was perfect; it should get a mistrial, and if the prosecution dropped the case, everyone would still think Naz was the killer. If not, the process of a new  trial would give Freddy time to think. The hung jury was the  perfect outcome. Naz looked guilty and all was right with the world.

[Happytobehere]

18 hours ago, kieyra said:

I guess tying things up somewhat neatly was their way of defying genre conventions? For whatever genre this show was supposed to fit into. 

11th-hour boyfriend that no one knew she had? Okay then. 

Multiple people called the financial planner and the reason(s) behind the killing when we got the episodes with the fight at the funeral and him so gleefully throwing the stepfather under the bus, so that was no 11th-hour swerve.  He also fit better with the murder we got, 22 stab wounds clearly speaks crime of passion/personal animus.

Sadly, I think Naz would be better off in jail with Freddy than where he is now because I can only see things going downhill for him now from this point forward.  Left to his own devices, Naz will only spiral.

Chandra destroyed her career for someone she barely knew.  Clearly the kiss from last week was  the set-up for what happened in this episode.  Given that the plan for a mistrial didn't come through, I think the show having Chandra become the coochie-heroin smuggler for Naz was their out in terms of people having sympathy for her.  Her fall was faster and harder than Naz's, but the end-result is equally catastrophic.

Ultimately, it was an okay show with great perfor,antes by Michael K. Williams and John Tuturro.

[kieyra]

Gobi, I don't want to quote your whole post and I'm on mobile, but are you serious about them continuing this into another season? Source?

Edit: happytobeherem, when you read further in thread you'll see I didn't quite catch that it was the same actor.

Edited August 29, 2016 by kieyra

[Gobi]

3 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Gobi, I don't want to quote your whole post and I'm on mobile, but are you serious about them continuing this into another season? Source?

Edit: happytobeherem, when you read further in thread you'll see I didn't quite catch that it was the same actor.

Just joking, no idea whether there will be another season. I think the BBC series had at least two, so maybe?

[The Hound Lives]

26 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Just joking, no idea whether there will be another season. I think the BBC series had at least two, so maybe?

The BBC did do a second series but with a totally new story line and cast of characters. I think this is like True Detective. If they do a second season, we will have a new cast. I would love a follow-up with this cast but think it probably is best to just leave us to our own thoughts on what happened to all of them. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

the writers probably knew there would be a segment of the population who would care more about the well being of the cat, than a human being.

That doesn't say much about the writers' ability to tell a compelling story, if they knew some of the audience would care more about the cat. Unless this show is supposed to be about a cat, then that shouldn't be the goal of the writers.

Quote

I would have preferred a little less of the deer head and a more nuanced intro to the psycho Financial Planner (who also served as the Boyfriend and a serial killer). 

They're saving that for Season 2. I don't know if they have one planned but they certainly left the door open for one.

[Ellaria]

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They're saving that for Season 2. I don't know if they have one planned but they certainly left the door open for one.

 

42 minutes ago, The Hound Lives said:

The BBC did do a second series but with a totally new story line and cast of characters. I think this is like True Detective. If they do a second season, we will have a new cast. I would love a follow-up with this cast but think it probably is best to just leave us to our own thoughts on what happened to all of them. 

As perspective, I have not watched the BBC series. But, based on what I did watch for 8 weeks, I'm not particularly interested in S2 of "The Night Of." I'm not fond of another round of the "inequities of the criminal justice system and its effect on everyone, etc." There are only so many ways to tell that story before it gets tired and frustrating. This was a well-acted, interesting series. I hope they leave it at that.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[JJWatt]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Hopefully this will work.

The cat.

BTW, the actor who played the judge, wasn't he Remus on Boardwalk Empire?

He  was George Reemus in Boardwalk Empire and he was the killer in True Detective, AND he was Ax's lawyer in Billions

[paigow]

5 hours ago, mirrorrim said:

My father is a retired police officer and district attorney investigator so I checked with him on his thoughts on the trial (he would have played a version of Box if he was in this show). His biggest problem with the trial was the lawyers breaking some very common (you can't sit and ask questions; you sure as hell don't touch evidence without it being in a bag, speaking of: you especially don't put the unboxed murder weapon down right on the desk) 

Your dad would be annoyed with Law & Order about handling unbagged murder weapons in court....on several occasions.

[ganesh]

I don't see what a second season would offer. I don't think following Naz around would be particularly interesting, and they didn't show enough of his family to really resonate for me. For the cops, the case was so ridiculously open and shut that Box closed in about 3 days. If he actually did his job, Naz probably wouldn't have gone to Rikers.

The whole hook for the show was we really didn't know if Naz did it and he didn't know if he did it. A second season with the same hook but different people seems gimmicky.

[meep.meep]

If you are looking for the exception, I cared a lot more about what happened to Naz than I did what happened to the cat.  I was getting so nervous about Naz that I started not wanting to watch the episodes.  The march out of Rikers was excruciating.

[DesertCyclist]

I'm sure what Chandra did sometimes happens, but it didn't seem earned; it felt too far, too soon.

I'm all for realism, but the moisture left on the bench after Naz picked up the heroin was a detail I could have lived without.

[Paloma]

Quote

 

Gobi, your explanation of "what really happened" is great--everything fits and makes more sense than most of the show. I am going with your version as the series finale.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Night Of Knew How To Appeal To Us

As Naz's story ends (and begins, in its way), a crime show that understood what we need from crime shows gave us just enough.

[tennisgurl]

So, some good and some bad here, pretty consistent with how the whole show has been. I would say it ended on a pretty high note, but a high note with a lot of flaws. 

First of all, the courtroom stuff has never worked. I know very little about how the justice system actually works in this kind of situation, and even I felt like it was off. It was like watching the second season of Broadchurch. I know nothing about anything going on with this legal stuff, but it seems like its not quite right. Even worse, it just was not compelling. Stones speech did almost make up for it though. That was a great speech, and summed up a big part of what I think this show was trying to say. Other than that, all the courtroom stuff was tedious, and it sucks that the show decided to focus on that for most of its run, instead of the stuff that it was better at. 

I think that making Naz such an enigma, and seeing him harden to prison life so quickly, was a mistake. I feel like they wanted us to make us suspect that Naz did do it, and added some of the dark stuff to his backstory to add to that, and I just never bought it. I would have preferred an actual study of Naz as a character, and seen more of a normal guy trying to survive prison, not a guy who becomes more and more of a blank slate. Its really because the actor is so good that I felt anything for him at the end. And Chandra turned out to be a very strangely written character. I have no idea why she apparently fell for Naz, and was willing to throw away her legal career to drug mule for this dude she just met. I think I could have bought it if we knew more about her, and her issues, or saw more of a connection between her and Naz. Those characters were both underwritten to me, and that was disappointing. 

And, most of all, I am sorry we got so little of Nazs family and community after the first few episodes. I felt like a big part of this show was going to be about how normal people deal with being thrown into the legal system (with the added struggles of being an immigrant, minority family), and how they deal with that, and how that affects the people around them, some of whom might rally around one of their own, while others might want be angry that Naz made them all look bad by association. We got glimpses of all that, but it never got really into anything. 

On the other hand, this show had a great atmosphere, good solid casting, and when it focused on its characters, and the way that the legal system is mostly made up of overworked average people, and not the usual cast of crusading cops/lawyers, or evil puppy kicking cops/lawyers you see on TV, it was really interesting. And I really did like the Saga of the Cat, even if its metaphor was not very subtle.

To me, the cat represented all the people who are screwed over by the legal system, all the people who are chewed up and spit out by an uncaring system, who are abandoned, ignored, and passed off by uncaring people, and are eventually abandoned, possibly to their death or misery. But, in the end, Stone took the cat home, which means that, despite everything, there are people who care about these people, and will go the extra mile for them. The system is a mess, but it is not without hope, and there are still good people out there who want to help, even if its costs them. I honestly really love that last scene, and I think it says more about where I think this show was trying to go more than anything else that has happened. Plus that song was lovely. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by tennisgurl

[Neurochick]

I watched again and here are the things I picked up this time.

When Stone brought the cat back to the shelter; there was a fade to black.  It was the only time in the episode that happened.

When Stone gave his closing arguments, he mentioned that when he first saw Naz he had to go back because he didn't have that look, he didn't look like the clients he has represented for years.

Freddy also told Naz that he could sense he was innocent; Freddy too has been around prison for years.  He was upset with Naz left, even though he was the one who had the CD brought to Stone's place.  Freddy was punching the bag because he was upset that Naz left.  

Naz was on his way to become Freddy 2.0 when he recruited that new guy to smuggle drugs into the jail.

Maybe the reason Naz was so upset with his mother was because both Stone and Freddy sensed he was innocent while his own mother didn't (shit, that's cold).

When Stone is watching the ASPCA commercial (I hope they didn't have to pay HBO since their logo was on Stone's TV), the voiceover said something like, "Tell that animal that you'll be there."  Stone's last words to the nameless, faceless client on the phone was "I'll be there."

Interesting choice of song at the end, "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face."  The first time Freddy and Stone saw Naz, they knew he didn't do it.

There were also things that nearly made me cry because, to me they were beautiful moments.

Stone's closing argument.  He fucking sold me, the DA sounded like she was reading from flash cards, when Stone said something like, "what we feel and what you feel will determine what happens to the rest of this young man's life," I felt that, I knew what he was saying. When Stone thanked the jury.

When Stone heavily sat down after the closing that had taken everything out of him and Naz turned and whispered, "thank you."

When Naz was sitting alone by the GW Bridge, smoking heroin and imagining Andrea, I realized how her death impacted him; not because he was accused of her murder, but because he really liked her.  I sensed he was wondering what would have happened had she not been murdered.

And of course the use of that Roberta Flack song, that I have loved since I first heard it at 12.  I was stunned to see the cat, but glad that we didn't see Stone get it back, it was a nice surprise.

BTW, the cat, Bam Bam was in the end credits.  

Edited August 30, 2016 by Neurochick

[kieyra]

I'm picturing the writers' room:

Hey, you know how people lose their shit over those dumb wolves on Game of Thrones? Well, what if we got a really well-trained cat ...

[The Hound Lives]

43 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I watched again and here are the things I picked up this time.

When Stone brought the cat back to the shelter; there was a fade to black.  It was the only time in the episode that happened.

When Stone gave his closing arguments, he mentioned that when he first saw Naz he had to go back because he didn't have that look, he didn't look like the clients he has represented for years.

Freddy also told Naz that he could sense he was innocent; Freddy too has been around prison for years.  He was upset with Naz left, even though he was the one who had the CD brought to Stone's place.  Freddy was punching the bag because he was upset that Naz left.  

Naz was on his way to become Freddy 2.0 when he recruited that new guy to smuggle drugs into the jail.

Maybe the reason Naz was so upset with his mother was because both Stone and Freddy sensed he was innocent while his own mother didn't (shit, that's cold).

When Stone is watching the ASPCA commercial (I hope they didn't have to pay HBO since their logo was on Stone's TV), the voiceover said something like, "Tell that animal that you'll be there."  Stone's last words to the nameless, faceless client on the phone was "I'll be there."

Interesting choice of song at the end, "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face."  The first time Freddy and Stone saw Naz, they knew he didn't do it.

There were also things that nearly made me cry because, to me they were beautiful moments.

Stone's closing argument.  He fucking sold me, the DA sounded like she was reading from flash cards, when Stone said something like, "what we feel and what you feel will determine what happens to the rest of this young man's life," I felt that, I knew what he was saying. When Stone thanked the jury.

When Stone heavily sat down after the closing that had taken everything out of him and Naz turned and whispered, "thank you."

When Naz was sitting alone by the GW Bridge, smoking heroin and imagining Andrea, I realized how her death impacted him; not because he was accused of her murder, but because he really liked her.  I sensed he was wondering what would have happened had she not been murdered.

And of course the use of that Roberta Flack song, that I have loved since I first heard it at 12.  I was stunned to see the cat, but glad that we didn't see Stone get it back, it was a nice surprise.

BTW, the cat, Bam Bam was in the end credits.  

This...all of this. 
I love you, Neurochick. 

[represent]

Quote

When Naz was sitting alone by the GW Bridge, smoking heroin and imagining Andrea, I realized how her death impacted him; not because he was accused of her murder, but because he really liked her.  I sensed he was wondering what would have happened had she not been murdered.

I agree, and when the prosecutor was reciting words from the Koran I believe, it really got to him. He teared up and said that he didn't know if he killed her, not because he couldn't remember but more because he did agree that had he checked her pulse or called the 911 maybe she could have been saved. She looked dead to me but the point was made. So in that scene, I thought he was thinking yeah, she's right, I didn't stab her but I might have helped in her death because I could have saved her with a phone call.

Poor thing, I did feel for Naz, especially when he confronted his mother that in truth, she did believe that he did it. I mean yeah, he took his father's car without permission, but it's not like he wasn't going to bring it back.  They knew he was going to a party, they just didn't know he lost his ride and took theirs without permission.   Bottom line, I don't think the punishment that he suffered fit the crime at all. Now what's going to happen to him? He's probably not going to get any therapy of which is definitely needs and he's gonna be hooked on drugs.  Life totally destroyed, shame.  I mean he could have met up with the same circumstance if he had gotten the ride from the friend to the party. It was just the wrong girl at the wrong time because of the sicko she was tied to at one point and he could have met the same kind of girl at the party. It was all sad/tragic, the girl seemed troubled but sweet.  

I've gotta go back and watch this from the beginning because I got into it kind of late, but when I saw Michael K. Williams was in it, I started paying more attention.

I see James Gandolfini was a producer. I wonder if they would have continued with this for another season if he hadn't passed away. Although there are other producers but... Or, was this a play or something before it came to HBO? I haven't read anything on it.

 

Quote

To me, the cat represented all the people who are screwed over by the legal system, all the people who are chewed up and spit out by an uncaring system, who are abandoned, ignored, and passed off by uncaring people, and are eventually abandoned, possibly to their death or misery. But, in the end, Stone took the cat home, which means that, despite everything, there are people who care about these people, and will go the extra mile for them. The system is a mess, but it is not without hope, and there are still good people out there who want to help, even if its costs them. I honestly really love that last scene, and I think it says more about where I think this show was trying to go more than anything else that has happened. Plus that song was lovely. 

I knew that cat had some symbolism to the "system" and I was trying to figure out what the hell his almost debilitating eczema had to do with the system. It was excruciating, what a nightmare. 

The song, Roberta Flack, my mother use to play this version of the song all the time, so soothing.

Quote

 

Stone's closing argument.  He fucking sold me, the DA sounded like she was reading from flash cards, when Stone said something like, "what we feel and what you feel will determine what happens to the rest of this young man's life," I felt that, I knew what he was saying. When Stone thanked the jury.

 

 

 

I would have been one of the six who said not guilty that's for damn sure.  No way could I send a man/woman possibly to even a sentence of death, based on the angles that were overlooked in this case, no way. I couldn't live with that even with that bloody knife many things were just off. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by represent

[Sheenieb]

Quote

See...I look at it like this. Naz was a "good boy". Doing what people told him to do. We know he isn't some innocent kid but in matters of passion, he was a bit green. This unassuming Paki kid, peddling some pills here and there but still adhering to all the rules of home life. A good Muslim boy. Not sexually experienced. I can imagine that for Chandra, her life was pretty similar. She isn't a seasoned veteran. She probably isn't even as sexually innocent as Naz but the conservative upbringing, in a religious home, shapes her story to be a bit more like his. 
But there is something alluring about being bad, even when you know it's wrong and go against everything you were raised to do. 

I also think that had things gone differently, Naz was probably someone Chandra would date. He was in school, clearly very smart, and they come from similar backgrounds. I'm sure the families would've loved each other. Perhaps that's what the kiss was about.

Box reminded me of the Richard Gear character in Brooklyn's Finest. He was also a cop that did the bare minimum. He didn't do any real po-lease (Bunk Moreland voice) work until the day he retired. When you see the underbelly of society and how awful human beings could be to one another, burnout happens fast, unfortunately. But it still shouldn't mean that you're okay with an innocent man going to prison because eh, you've seen it all before.

Which brings me to how infuriated I was with the prosecutor. "We have more on the kid." Jesus. That really hit home because God knows how many times that's happened in real life. A prosecutor who knows that their case is falling apart when new evidence is introduced and they're like, meh, I want to win. She doesn't get a gold star for doing what the fuck she should've done from the beginning.

I'm still annoyed that no one mentioned Naz's lack of blood on his clothes. That was a goddamn bloodbath. He would've looked like something out of The Evil Dead if he killed Andrea. But it goes back to the burnout theme. Stone was a semi-burnout, while Box and Weiss were already there mentally and physically. I also think back to True Detective season one and the "detective curse." The answer is obvious but you can't see it.

Overall I enjoyed the series. I was invested in Naz's family and would've liked for the show to focus on them more. They're community pariahs and their family is forever fractured.

[scrb]

When Box was in that bar thinking about the case, a couple of cops were saying if there was a show about cops where they didn't have to find evidence or something like that, it would be the best show.

 

Is Naz going to call up Chandra?  

[ganesh]

Quote

. I feel like they wanted us to make us suspect that Naz did do it, and added some of the dark stuff to his backstory to add to that, and I just never bought it. 

I never thought he did it from the start. We see him wake up and he's clean. No blood. There were no wounds indicating she fought back. 

Naz himself wasn't sure and it would have been nice to see that. I thought we were going to get a lot of different flashbacks as Naz tried to remember what happened. 

[scrb]

When Weiss asked if he's really sure he didn't kill her (by not calling 911 right away instead of running away), he should have said he wasn't the one who repeatedly stabbed her instead of saying "I don't know."

Not calling 911 is not first or second degree murder or whatever was the charge against him.

I know it made for good drama for him to say "I don't know" at that point but I don't see him wavering on that point, even if she quoted some Koran to him.

[Refresh]

11 hours ago, stagmania said:

I'm not even a lawyer, and I know you never put the defendant on the stand unless there's something absolutely vital you need to get in evidence that can't come from any other source. You certainly don't put them up just to act as their own character witness, especially if the best they can do is say they can't remember anything but feel in their heart that they must be innocent. That's 101 level stuff, and it makes no sense that Chandra wouldn't know that this was a terrible idea.

All the legal procedure in this show was nutty. I'm not a lawyer either, I just get called for Jury duty a lot. Let me count the ways I noticed .. Do lawyers lean on the stand like the prosecutor did to Naz during questioning? No. There were barely any objections. There was a table of evidence (bloody lamp, seriously?) unwrapped sitting in the room 24/7. It's just silly.

That said, yeah, while I don't think it would ever see a real life lawyer calling a defendant to the stand in Naz circumstance, for storytelling I get it. (and to the above, for storytelling I get it.) Chandra believed Naz after she met him, so did Stone, so did Freddy. There's something about Naz telling his truth that is believable. There's something about him that is innocent. I think they wanted to give that.

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Interesting choice of song at the end, "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face."  The first time Freddy and Stone saw Naz, they knew he didn't do it.

Exactly.

I was in void dire on a trial where from what I could tell by the jury questioning the defendant was blacked out during this alleged criminal act. SO much of the jury questioning was about this idea of not remembering and whether you thought black outs existed. A lot of discussion about not remembering, and most of the jurors were like "well ok, maybe, but that doesn't excuse the behavior" . The other bulk of questioning of jurors was about the defendant not taking the stand and whether or not the jury saw that as a sign of guilt. That's pretty standard for criminal trials, at least in my experience. I assume off camera this happened and it's just not very interesting or necessary to the story. I wish they could've married more realism in the courtroom but they clearly didn't even bother, and it seems very intentional and I'm ultimately ok with that I guess.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Refresh
finishing thoughts

[The Hound Lives]

Interesting thing I just caught on a re-watch. Andrea was murdered October 2014, correct? 
When Chandra went to buy the pills for Naz, the security camera on the street filmed it. The date was November 2015 (I believe). I am sure someone else mentioned this up thread but I was happy to get an idea of how long Naz has been at Riker's. 
This show really is about the smallest details. 

[LittleIggy]

Since he is a Coen Bros. regular, I have loved John Turturro for years. He was so awesome in the role of Stone. So ecstatic about the kitty! I started crying when Stone took him back to the shelter so the ending was such a gift! The series had its ups and downs, but I enjoyed it.

[WaltersHair]

Quote

But having the general reaction to your prestige HBO drama be: Thank God the cat is okay ...  just seems like a hollow victory.

Soooo much this. Even *I* was happy to see the cat at the end, but CAT ANVILS everywhere.

eta, I haven't read of it anywhere, but is this a part dramatization of the Kalief Browder Case? His story is truly heart breaking

Edited August 30, 2016 by WaltersHair

[Haiti D]

I think many people are taking the Cat too seriously.  Yes he was symbolic of Nas but it's secondary purpose was to introduce levity into a fairly gloomy show.

Regarding Nas' journey into becoming a prison thug/ heroin addict, I think if we were given a better sense of the span of time between the murder and the trial his descent would have been more poignant.  I think I glimpsed on a security camera that Andrea was murdered in October and by the time Nas was let out it looked like early-or mid-winter.  So over 3-6 months, he became hardened which seems really fast.  The producers should have given us a better sense that time was moving on and the seasons were changing.  They should have shown us Nas' frustration with a super slow process.  The time span of the show should have been closer to a year for us to really appreciate Nas' fall.  ETA: I now see the Hounds post above.  Ok, that's great because now his fall is more realistic.

And in Chandra's defense she was 90% a good lawyer.  Her arguments were good and she helped sway 6 jurors into doubting the Prosecution.  She did have a fatal flaw though but maybe she wasn't really interested in being a lawyer anyway.  However to flesh her out more, they probably should have included somewhere during the trial a "status update" meeting with Alison Crowe.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Haiti D