S04.E02: The Lion And The Rose 2014.04.13

[mad_typist]

I believe this the episode where

the Purple Wedding and the Best Thing To Ever Happen occurs

(spoiler tagging this just in case the wrong person wanders in here before the episode airs)

 

Episode Synopsis:

 

Tyrion lends Jaime a hand. Joffrey and Margaery host a breakfast. At Dragonstone, Stannis loses patience with Davos. Ramsay finds a purpose for his pet. North of the Wall, Bran sees where they must go. 

Note: This episode is written by George R.R. Martin.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[Izzyboy]

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....

That, my friends, was better than sex.

[mad_typist]

I enjoyed watching my unspoiled boyfriend tonight. It was just an endless stream of "Auuuggh! He's so horrible! He's such an asshole!" And then... "Wait... wait.... is it? Yessssssss. <relieved sigh>"

In other news, this is my take on the Shae/Tyrion breakup scene: http://movieclips.com/Nmf4-harry-and-the-hendersons-movie-goodbye-my-friend/60.17/125.84/

[Haleth]

And... waiting for the internet to explode.

[Valerie]

Just as underwhelming as it was in the book, in my opinion. Joff deserved to be flayed, torched, chopped up into a billion pieces, and in the end it was poisoned wine which is such a cowards way to kill someone.

[scout1207]

Margaery: Tommen, how You doin'!?

[Mya Stone]

That. Was. Glorious. 

An unrighteous death for an unrighteous king. 

I enjoyed watching my unspoiled boyfriend tonight. It was just an endless stream of "Auuuggh! He's so horrible! He's such an asshole!" And then... "Wait... wait.... is it? Yessssssss. <relieved sigh>"

In other news, this is my take on the Shae/Tyrion breakup scene: http://movieclips.com/Nmf4-harry-and-the-hendersons-movie-goodbye-my-friend/60.17/125.84/

Same! Except it's my sister who's completely unspoiled. She actually said, "Oh my god...is this real life? Is he really...HE IS!" And then she fist pumped. Actually fist pumped. 

[mac123x]

I found myself playing the following games:

1.  When did Oleana touch Sansa's necklace ( I won that one)

2.  Could I see if a gem was missing from the necklace (couldn't see, but in one shot I thought it looked intact)3.

3.  Follow-the-goblet to see where it wound up.

Otherwise, actually a pretty boring episode.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Yes I was trying to figure out exactly when she did it I'm guessing when the pie was cut.  Can someone remind me when we find out in the book that she did it? 

One thing that kind of surprised me was seeing Tywin amused by all of Joffery's antics.

[Lyo]

I though you COULD see the necklace was missing a stone, but maybe it was my imagination.

OOhhhh that was good. I was watching with my bf and it was the happiest I've ever seen him.

[Mya Stone]

Yes I was trying to figure out exactly when she did it I'm guessing when the pie was cut.  Can someone remind me when we find out in the book that she did it? 

One thing that kind of surprised me was seeing Tywin amused by all of Joffery's antics.

We don't explicitly find out...but Littlefinger lets Sansa know who had the most to gain from offing him. 

I though you COULD see the necklace was missing a stone, but maybe it was my imagination.

OOhhhh that was good. I was watching with my bf and it was the happiest I've ever seen him.

On my TV I paid close close attention, and thought that immediately after the QoT fixed Sansa's hair and readjusted her necklace there was a stone missing all the way to the right (Sansa's left). I'll look again on rewatch. 

[Izzyboy]

I really enjoyed Oberyn's conversation with Tywin and Cersei.  Seems that not only is he renowed by is battle prowess, but he's just as sharp with words as he is with his spear.  They did such a good job in casting him.

I think it helps that Bran is crippled, otherwise it'd be harder and harder to hide the fact that the actor playing him is damn near as tall as Hodor now!

 

On my TV I paid close close attention, and thought that immediately after the QoT fixed Sansa's hair and readjusted her necklace there was a stone missing all the way to the right (Sansa's left). I'll look again on rewatch.

I thought the same thing.  I was watching my TV closely and I thought I saw a stone glint briefly in Olenna's hand as she moved it away from Sansa's hair...

Edited April 14, 2014 by Izzyboy

[Haleth]

Thank you, Jack Gleeson. Well done.

I thought it looked like a stone was missing from Sansa's left side, near where Olenna was touching her hair. Yeah, she must have dropped it in when Joff cut the pie. The old lady is pretty quick!

I cringed when Joff destroyed that rare book.

[ellystar]

Poor Cersei. The only one who cares that Joffrey is dead. Jack Gleeson was amazing in this role, it's kind of a shame that it's all over. A lot of Unsullied seem to think it was the pie, not the wine. It seemed to me like Margaery had the best opportunity with the timing of everything to slip it in while the pie was cut (I have always hoped it was her who actually did the act). I'll have to rewatch the scene.

I wonder why Loras didn't tell Jaime that he didn't want to marry Cersei either. Maybe he didn't want to upset the Kingslayer? It seemed odd to me. Also odd that Tommen wasn't in the episode. Was he even mentioned? I bet a lot of Unsullied have forgotten that there's someone ready in line to take the throne.

[Izzyboy]

 

I thought it looked like a stone was missing from Sansa's left side, near where Olenna was touching her hair.

I just rewatched the scene about 5 times and there's definitely a stone missing from the uppermost "clasp" (or whatever you want to call it) on the left side Sansa's necklace.  Not only is it missing, but that clasp is on the outside of her gown...as if someone had slightly pulled on it...hehehe....

[Haleth]

Tommen was sitting between Cercei and Tyrion.

[Izzyboy]

They showed Tommen a few times.  He's being played by a new actor this year (funnily enough that actor played one of the Lannister kids that Rickard Karstark killed last season) so that may be why so many people overlooked him.

[Grammaeryn]

Damn DVRing... the internet is not rejoicing as much as I had hoped!  But tumblr is cracking me up now.  All throughout this episode I was thinking, "Yeah, yeah get this out of the way for the wedding."  I have to say even though they made Reek's injuries less apparent, Alfie did a great job showing how broken he is.

[LilWharveyGal]

Second best event of the night:  Oberyn and Loras checking each other out.

[Paws]

I knew what was coming and it was even better because I watched with my Unsullied husband, who turned to me as Joffrey was choking and said "was this in the books?" They nailed every detail and I love, love , love, the actor playing Oberyn. He is so perfect.

[ellystar]

Tommen was sitting between Cercei and Tyrion.

Wow, I didn't realize that was Tommen at all. Makes sense now that I think about it. I loved how Tyrion gave him a look at he stopped laughing at one point. That being said, my point was more that there wasn't a reminder to the viewers that that Tommen exists and will now become king.

Damn DVRing... the internet is not rejoicing as much as I had hoped!  

 

Yeah, I think people are holding it in as not to spoiler it for those who haven't watched yet.

[Rhondinella]

I figured it was Tommen only because I felt like he looked so much like Joffrey.

[quarks]

LilWharveryGal, for the first time ever, I found myself shipping those two. 

I spent the rest of the episode going, man, if this episode ends before Joffrey dies, All HBO Must Die.  That dwarf fighting scene was just agony to watch on behalf of all of the characters there who loved Renly and Robb. Even Oberyn looked pretty horrified. 

[Attaboy000]

Poor Cersei. The only one who cares that Joffrey is dead. Jack Gleeson was amazing in this role, it's kind of a shame that it's all over. A lot of Unsullied seem to think it was the pie, not the wine. It seemed to me like Margaery had the best opportunity with the timing of everything to slip it in while the pie was cut (I have always hoped it was her who actually did the act). I'll have to rewatch the scene.

I wonder why Loras didn't tell Jaime that he didn't want to marry Cersei either. Maybe he didn't want to upset the Kingslayer? It seemed odd to me. Also odd that Tommen wasn't in the episode. Was he even mentioned? I bet a lot of Unsullied have forgotten that there's someone ready in line to take the throne.

Dude, Tommen was right there. How did you miss him?

[Independent George]

As much as I dislike the whole Theon arc last season, I have to admit I laughed out loud when they cut from him to Tyrion spearing a giant sausage at the breakfast table.

[halgia]

Dude, Tommen was right there. How did you miss him?

It was a different actor (right?). Took me a while to figure out who he was too.

[dbell1]

My favorite touches tonight - the dead birds in the pie (leave it to Joff to kill doves); Sansa handing the cup to Tyrion (I had hopes for those two crazy kids to make it (NOT)); Margery realizing her new King was batshit and doing her best to diffuse it; and the ending scene where we saw blood streaming from every orifice as Joff is finally gone.  Jack Gleeson is an insanely good actor.  Wonder who's going to step up to be the next one in line for slapping?

I liked the dwarf scene better than the one in the book, it managed to offend just about every family there.

Odd that Tyrion sent Shae away, will she be brought off the ship by Vareys birds or are they rewriting that character too?

Bronn and not Ser Illyn doing the sword training with Jaimie?  Was that because the Illyn Payne actor is ill?  I really missed Sansa's line about "What have they done to my father's sword?"  Tommen has grown about 2 feet, I figured they'd recast the role, but I was looking forward to Margery having a 4 foot tall husband who loves kittens.

[Rhondinella]

Bronn and not Ser Illyn doing the sword training with Jaimie?

Anything that gets Bronn more screen time is just fine with me!

[maystone]

I'd always thought that Littlefinger had Joffrey killed. It was Dontos who gave Sansa the necklace and then whisked her away to Littlefinger's boat. It makes sense for it to be a Tyrell move now that I think about it, though. I just had figured that Cersei would never allow Tommen to be married off so young, but then Tywin is the one who really runs the kingdom, and he would see the benefit of keeping the alliance intact.

[mac123x]

Who was Miranda in the opening who was hunting with Ramsey?  I don't remember any of his band of sickos in the books being a woman.

It seemed to me like Margaery had the best opportunity with the timing of everything to slip it in while the pie was cut (I have always hoped it was her who actually did the act). I'll have to rewatch the scene.

The final shot before Joffrey picked up his goblet had Olenna Tyrell framed front and center, so I think the director was pointing his finger at her.

[Mya Stone]

Who was Miranda in the opening who was hunting with Ramsey?  I don't remember any of his band of sickos in the books being a woman.

The final shot before Joffrey picked up his goblet had Olenna Tyrell framed front and center, so I think the director was pointing his finger at her.

Miranda (and Tansy, the girl who was hunted) were the two girls who helped rid Theon of his favorite part. In the books the only girls surrounding Ramsey are his dogs, so this is an interesting choice. Maybe to illustrate his complete depravity

before marrying "Arya?"

[SNeaker]

My impression when I read the book was that Littlefinger and Olenna were in on it together -- that the plan was to use Sansa's tiara to poison Joffrey then have her whisked away by Ser Dontos. Littlefinger gets Sansa, Olenna gets dead Joffrey and a safer Lannister for Margaery to marry. It was only later when I saw fans debating about it that I started to question whether I was supposed to trust what I thought I knew -- after all, Littlefinger/Lysa later reveal a little factoid that turns the entire series on its head. So is it supposed to be that Littlefinger/Olenna is a smokescreen and it could have been someone else? Like maybe even Tyrion? I get so confused by these books, I tell ya,

Edited April 14, 2014 by SNeaker

[Independent George]

My impression when I read the book was that Littlefinger and Olenna were in on it together -- that the plan was to use Sansa's tiara to poison Joffrey then have her whisked away by Ser Dontos. Littlefinger gets Sansa, Olenna gets dead Joffrey and a safer Lannister for Margaery to marry. It was only later when I saw fans debating about it that I started to question whether I was supposed to trust what I thought I knew -- after all, Littlefinger/Lysa later reveal a little factoid that turns the entire series on its head. So is it supposed to be that Littlefinger/Olenna is a smokescreen and it could have been someone else? Like maybe even Tyrion? I get so confused by these books, I tell ya,

That is what was implied by the book, but it never made sense to me. If Olenna was going to poison Joffrey, why on earth would she bring Littlefinger into the loop? To quote the great philosopher Bell, "Is you takin' notes on a criminal conspiracy?" She would limit the players to the bare minimum - namely, Olenna, Margaery, and possibly Garlan.n It makes much more sense if Littlefinger simply manipulated events to the point where Olenna would have to poison Joffrey, and it's consistent with his monologue in SOS. But if that's the case, then why is Dontos involved? 

My personal meta-theory is that in the books, GRRM changed his mind midway through SOS, but wrote himself into a corner in COK when Dontos gave Sansa the necklace. 

[yellowfred]

Just as underwhelming as it was in the book, in my opinion. Joff deserved to be flayed, torched, chopped up into a billion pieces, and in the end it was poisoned wine which is such a cowards way to kill someone.

Yeah, I actually kind of like that it was underwhelming.  As much as Joffrey's a piece of shit, he's not nearly as formidable as people like Tywin and Littlefinger.  I think the way he dies is a nice reminder of just how pathetic he ultimately is.

 

Yes I was trying to figure out exactly when she did it I'm guessing when the pie was cut.  Can someone remind me when we find out in the book that she did it?

Well, Littlefinger tells Sansa that Olenna took the bead when she adjusted Sansa's hairnet, and then explains how he gave her the idea that she'd need to (which mostly involved having people tell her what a piece of shit he is).  He never explicitly states who put the poison in the cup, though it's likely he knew, considering how integral he was to the plan, with the whole Dontos thing.

So, on kind of a side note, I'm officially annoyed that they brought Jaime and Brienne back early.  Like, I get that they couldn't do it for story reasons, but I hate that they had her literally ten feet from Sansa and she didn't even stop by to say "hi."  It just feels so unlike her, especially when you realize that it's already well known that she served Catelyn, so it's not like she's trying to hide that fact.  

[Joystickenvy]

My favorite bits were Loras making eyes at Oberyn and the final shot of Joffery that illustrated just how pathetic and inglorious his ending really was, which is just the sort of ending he deserved.

I'm already tired of Ramsey Snow, but Alfie is doing a great job as "Reek." Dontos gets to play Terminator......come with me if you want to live.....

The books definitely point the finger at Littlefinger/Olenna conspiracy, but I thought it also suggested possible Tywin involvement because a) he wanted a more biddable and sane Tomman on the throne and b) he had motivation to pin the thing on Tyrion.

Looks like they are setting the stage for the Cersei vs Margaery hunger games. I wonder if they'll bring the whole fortune teller story into it.

Interested to see where they are going with Shae. They seemed to set up the book events by having Tywin asking for her to be brought to his tower after the wedding, but if they do, I hope a Shae doesn't roll over on Tyrian because of the breakup scene. TV Shae is far too perceptive to have not seen Tyrion's go back to the wild where you belong! Act for what it was, so I'm hoping they come up with something that fits the character.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Joystickenvy

[Andromeda]

I'd always thought that Littlefinger had Joffrey killed. It was Dontos who gave Sansa the necklace and then whisked her away to Littlefinger's boat. It makes sense for it to be a Tyrell move now that I think about it, though. I just had figured that Cersei would never allow Tommen to be married off so young, but then Tywin is the one who really runs the kingdom, and he would see the benefit of keeping the alliance intact.

I believe they worked together. The Tyrells didn't want Margery to marry a monster, and Littlefinger wanted Sansa. So Littlefinger used Dontos to get the necklace to Sansa, where the Tyrells could get their hands on the poison during the wedding, in exchange for getting Sansa.

after all, Littlefinger/Lysa later reveal a little factoid that turns the entire series on its head.

I'm blanking. What is the factoid?

My satisfaction at seeing the punk murdered was lessened quite a bit because I knew the finger would point at Tyrion. He wouldn't have been anywhere near Joffrey's cup if Joffrey hadn't insisted he be his cupbearer. That frustrates me. Do people really think he just happened to have some poison on him and was waiting for Joffrey to bully him into an opportunity to poison him?

Still wondering what they're doing with Shae. Nothing fits the book where her storyline is concerned. Is she really gone? Or will she be pulled off the boat and made to testify?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Andromeda

[yellowfred]

I'm blanking. What is the factoid?

I'm guessing it's that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, at Littlefinger's request, and then told Catelyn that she thought it was the Lannisters, also at Littlefinger's request.  I wonder if they're also going to reveal that the assassin sent to kill Bran was actually sent by Joffrey and that the dagger was some random dagger he stole from his father's armory, which means that Littlefinger had absolutely no basis for pinning it on Tyrion, other than really wanting to stir up shit between the Lannisters and the Starks.

[Joystickenvy]

Still wondering what they're doing with Shae. Nothing fits the book where her storyline is concerned. Is she really gone? Or will she be pulled off the boat and made to testify?

I think it is entirely possible that Tywin or Cersei have already bought Bronn at this point and he took Shae to Tywin's tower and just told Tyrion he put her on the boat.

It would fit with Bronn abandoning Tyrion at the trial so that he can get his lordship, though I reckon he won't be married to Lollys.

[GreyBunny]

I liked the dwarf scene better than the one in the book, it managed to offend just about every family there. 

It was better and worse and for the same reason.  It was offensive on a deeply cringe-y level.  

If you look closely at the dwarves' "horses", you'll see Stannis was riding Melisandre and Renly was riding Loras (whose butt was exposed).  Ouch.  And Joffrey pelvic-thrusted Robb's wolf head - double ouch.  The Martells got an eyeful of what kind of monsters they were still dealing with.

Edited April 14, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Andromeda]

I'm guessing it's that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, at Littlefinger's request, and then told Catelyn that she thought it was the Lannisters, also at Littlefinger's request.  I wonder if they're also going to reveal that the assassin sent to kill Bran was actually sent by Joffrey and that the dagger was some random dagger he stole from his father's armory, which means that Littlefinger had absolutely no basis for pinning it on Tyrion, other than really wanting to stir up shit between the Lannisters and the Starks.

Thanks, Yellowfred. I'd forgotten about that. It seems to reinforce that Littlefinger is behind it, using other people to carry out his wishes, since poison is involved again. 

It would fit with Bronn abandoning Tyrion at the trial so that he can get his lordship, though I reckon he won't be married to Lollys.

I hate that Bron will betray Tyrion -- I know it's comng, but I hate it -- I've loved their banter up until now. Speaking of wives, we got to see fat Walda. I wasn't expecting that.

Oh, and Penny -- I'd been looking forward to seeing if she would be introduced, and how. I read that they discovered it's impossible to ride pigs, so a literal interpretation of the book wasn't going to happen. I like what they DID do, but none of the five performers were female.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Andromeda

[DigitalCount]

I guess they had to pay off Roose's comment at the Red Wedding.

So I guess the Purple in Purple Wedding wasn't the stones or the wine at all; it was Joffrey's face.

[RapBert]

Oh boy, that dwarf jousting scene goes so far beyond offensive that it comes around and becomes funny again. And Joffrey's end was just as good as I had hoped.

Some other things I loved:

- Olenna's "Shut up, adults are talking" to Mace as she was walking with Tywin

- everything about Bronn

- Roose putting Ramsay in his place

- Oberyn being awesome, especially when talking to Tywin and Cersei

I'm curious to see where the storylines in the North go, of course the Moat Cailin stuff is in the books, but I'm wondering what will happen to RIckon. Are the actors for Rickon and Osha returning? Also I hope that Stannis isn't going to sit around until episode 9.

[GreyBunny]

As much as I dislike the whole Theon arc last season, I have to admit I laughed out loud when they cut from him to Tyrion spearing a giant sausage at the breakfast table.

The editors have been killing it this season.  Give them a raise and a bouquet of flowers.

Oberyn - troll level:  expert. Gods I love him!

I died laughing at the explanation Bronn gave to Jaime about how they wouldn't be found.  I need more Bronn in my life.

So, it appears we got our first introduction to Bloodraven in the form of his voice in Bran's head.

Edited April 14, 2014 by GreyBunny

[jellysalmon]

The gaydar in westeros is top notch.

[Helena Dax]

The "joust" scene made me feel so uncomfortable and amused at  the same time... It's difficult to find such levels of trolling.  I think even the Dothraki would have been "wtf".

Joffrey's death at the books was a bit unsatisfaying for me. I wanted him to suffer more. I think more or less the same about Joffrey's death on screen but I must admit  that final shot  of his face was very creepy. And I'll miss  him,  hating him was funny.

Loved the Oberyn/Loras moment. But really, poor Loras must be feeling sick of being at King's Landing.

We didn't see Brienne's face during the joust, but if she watched it, I guess she wasn't all that sad when Joffrey died moments later. I liked her scene with Cersei, I think Brienne handled all that  bitchiness pretty well.

[sev]

I had to shake my head at Cersei and Jaime, although she pushed him away: you not help someone who's choking by letting them lie on their back.

Lena Headey did such a wonderful job with her pained anger and final screaming after Tyrion at the end.

Edited April 14, 2014 by sev

[SNeaker]

Does Bronn "betray" Tyrion in the books? I thought he just abandoned him, which isn't really the same thing. Bronn was not about to go on what was essentially a suicide mission for Tyrion, and it seemed to me like he was just being a pragmatic self-preservationist -- something he never pretended not to be and which Tyrion knew about him and I think, overall, respected, though it was hard in the end to realize that he didn't have any true friends who would stand up for him. But that's what you get when you make company with prostitutes and sellswords and convince yourself they love you when they don't. But Bronn wasn't bought off in the books that I recall (right?) so I'd be pretty upset if the show did that. He later names his stepson "Tyrion," which is pretty hilarious.

[Haleth]

I think when the Unsullied look back they will realize that the whole scene of Olenna rejecting the necklaces was a big clue to who killed Joff.  Not that Sansa's necklace was one of the rejected ones, but that scene and then Olenna fussing with Sansa's hair should add up Olenna + jewelry = one dead tyrant.  About Littlefinger's involvement, I'd assumed he was the one to actually acquire the poison for Olenna with Sansa as the mule.

I'm glad the writers didn't have Joff clawing at his throat to the point it was bloody.  It was gruesome enough as is.

Loras and Oberyn should not hook up.  Their families hate each other.  Although with Willas not in the show maybe the families' enmity will not be included.

Undoubtedly Shae was taken off the boat or never got on.  I was disappointed one of the dwarves wasn't revealed to be a woman.  So no Penny in the future?

Looking forward to seeing Dinklage handle his storyline the rest of this season.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Haleth

[Scarlett45]

Does Bronn "betray" Tyrion in the books? I thought he just abandoned him, which isn't really the same thing. Bronn was not about to go on what was essentially a suicide mission for Tyrion, and it seemed to me like he was just being a pragmatic self-preservationist -- something he never pretended not to be and which Tyrion knew about him and I think, overall, respected, though it was hard in the end to realize that he didn't have any true friends who would stand up for him. But that's what you get when you make company with prostitutes and sellswords and convince yourself they love you when they don't. But Bronn wasn't bought off in the books that I recall (right?) so I'd be pretty upset if the show did that. He later names his stepson "Tyrion," which is pretty hilarious.

I don't think Bronn betrayed Tyrion either. Even book!Bronn at this point was quite fond of Tyrion but he knew he had no chance of going up against The Flipping MOUNTAIN and coming out alive. Show!Bronn does like Tyrion and enjoy his company but isn't willing to go on a suicide mission for him, and I can't say I blame him.

[Izzyboy]

I think it is entirely possible that Tywin or Cersei have already bought Bronn at this point and he took Shae to Tywin's tower and just told Tyrion he put her on the boat.

 

Agreed.  I think not only was Bronn trailed when taking Shae to the boat, he was confronted and made an offer he couldn't refuse.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Izzyboy