The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[DragonFaerie]

40 minutes ago, zoomama said:

so, still cant view the felicity videos. just wondering if jinger had a c-section also...have read a couple comments here that made me wonder.

I could never get them to work on my laptop but they worked just fine on my iphone.  Go figure.  If you haven't tried them on your phone that might work for you as well.  I didn't even need a tlc app or anything, just did it through the web browser on my phone.

[mom2two]

watching the Birth videos i could relate to Jinger.  Once i got my epidural i was to progress faster and pushing went easier.    So happy she had great medical care and was able to get the proper medical care.   Also impressive that she was exercising so much with squats and walking.   She has the most common sense of all the Dugger girls. 

[RedheadZombie]

23 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I think Jessa is jealous as hell.

I really don't.  I don't think Jessa is jealous of Jinger's marriage - Jessa wants to be the leader(and controller), not the submissive follower (and controlled).  I don't think Jessa is jealous of Felicity, because she's got two adorable boys of her own (that are probably the favorite of most followers).  If anything, Jessa may be jealous of their larger house and the nice things they spend their money on.  But then after Babe burns through all of Jinger's show money, Jessa will probably have a nice little nest egg.  

[RedheadZombie]

17 hours ago, Temperance said:

Even as a lapsed (kind of) heathen Catholic" I don't see Jer as less judgmental. Given how much value he seems to place on appearances, I would gather he's probably plenty judgmental just better at hiding it.  And maybe "running Jinger's life" too.  

 Jeremy is a lot like Jessa. 

Exactly, and I think that's why Jinger was drawn to Babe.  She exchanged one leader for another.

[BitterApple]

25 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I really don't.  I don't think Jessa is jealous of Jinger's marriage - Jessa wants to be the leader(and controller), not the submissive follower (and controlled).  I don't think Jessa is jealous of Felicity, because she's got two adorable boys of her own (that are probably the favorite of most followers).  If anything, Jessa may be jealous of their larger house and the nice things they spend their money on.  But then after Babe burns through all of Jinger's show money, Jessa will probably have a nice little nest egg.  

I agree with what you said, but I do believe Jessa wishes she had a more mature husband. Bin's a good-hearted guy, but he's basically like a third kid. If Jessa doesn't hustle and keep the show going to support the family, there's no way he's going to be able to do it. I think she likes calling the shots but is starting to realize it's a double-edged sword. Jinger's life seems arguably less stressful.

[bythelake]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Joy's midwife actually had credentials beyond just a CPM. Too lazy to look it up now, but she is more qualified to identify emergent situations, or something like that. How she missed Giddy being breech is inexcusable. 

As a L&D nurse for over 40 years,I can attest that there are many factors in determining a breech presentation.

By palpating the patient’s abdomen, the midwife should have  noticed (unless the patient is morbidly obese),by its shape, that the hard object under her ribs was the head. The shape of the abdomen really does look different. The patient would also complain of being kicked lower in the pelvic region, and the fetal heart tones would be higher up than a cephalic presentation. A vaginal exam would have determined whether a hard head was felt or a squishy butt or feet. There is a different feel. The symptoms may have been vague, but cause for enough concern that any reputable midwife or physician would have done an ultrasound. If an ultrasound determined the baby was a breech then exercises could have begun to reposition the baby until an external version could be  attempted, by a physician, not a CPM and certainly not at home.

If Joy was already in labor, the midwife should have still noticed the above, done an ultrasound, and sent Joy straight to the hospital not let her labor at home. There is danger with a breech of a prolapsed cord or prolapsed foot,which could be ominous.

 This midwife doesn’t sound qualified to me at all, and I’ve worked with many midwives over the years,Certified Nurse Midwives, that is.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, as they say with doctors and lawyers, even the person who graduates last in their class still gets a title. Miss Lucy may be one of those. 

[GeeGolly]

I didn't see Jinger's video. Back in the day epidurals weren't given until dilation was at 5 centimeters because it could slow progress. Has that changed? I never heard of anyone getting one to help progress labor.

[Snow Fairy]

In my country, after epidural the slowing of the labor is prevented by giving a "drip". I don't know if it is called that way in English.

[cesstar]

On 08/08/2018 at 6:28 AM, madpsych78 said:

In other words, I think Jinger's decision to wear pants was influenced in part by Jeremy, whereas Jill's decision to wear pants was all Jill.

Weren't there photos of Jinger wearing pants ( like sports tracksuit pants?) before she started courting Jeremy? She always seemed the most into fashion of the older girls so I'm not surprised that she has branched out more in that respect since escaping the compound. Whether she sought 'permission' or not I have no idea but I think the initiative would have been all hers.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I didn't see Jinger's video. Back in the day epidurals weren't given until dilation was at 5 centimeters because it could slow progress. Has that changed? I never heard of anyone getting one to help progress labor.

Research has shown that modern epidurals do not slow labor.  And, especially when a woman has trouble relaxing due to the pain of labor, an epidural can help her to do so and often speeds things up.

 

3 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

In my country, after epidural the slowing of the labor is prevented by giving a "drip". I don't know if it is called that way in English.

‘The drip’ you refer to is pitocin, a drug used to cause contractions or make them stronger.

[cmr2014]

I liked Jinger in the birth episode. I've never really had much of an opinion of her either way -- she's always come across to me as nothing more than a very guarded person who is working very hard to maintain a cheerful countenance. In this episode, though, I found her very real and like-able. I liked the way she interacted with J'chelle in the car: uh-huh, okay, yeah -- without paying her any real attention. J'chelle is so used to being fawned over -- even when other women are giving birth -- that that must have been a real shock for her.

Also, as she was wandering around the hospital room, playing with the puzzle, interacting with her husband and the midwife, she just came across as a nice girl. She looked tired, and a bit unsure, and very human and relate-able.

I also found the bit at the end where Jeremy was talking about her as a "strong woman" to be sweet. She didn't come across as "strong" to me at all. I think that Jeremy was encouraging her, and working to building her confidence, and despite all his smarmy self-loving photos, that made me like him.

One more thing: I think that the whole thing about her doctor and her midwife wanting to induce was complete BS. I think that Jinger was terrified of giving birth to a giant watermelon baby like her sisters, and it was her level of terror that led the doctor, and the midwife (and probably Jeremy) to think that inducing the baby near the due date would be a good plan. Good for all of them.

[asuwur]

I got an epidural at a 3 during induction and the OB Nurse really strained to call it a 3. I had 3 rounds of gel (with one having a very uncomfortable insertion) and was on pit. I tense up and fight against pain. I had my hubs on a wheeled stool and was pulling him across and around the room to work and stretch the muscles ( I'm sure it looked as ridiculous as it sounds). My nurse, Angie (Its been 21 years but I will never forget her name) suspected that my body was fighting progress. She got me the epidural, I relaxed and then progressed so fast they had to run for a doc and she had my hubs gently keep his hand on the crowning head to keep our daughter from shooting out across the room before the doc got there..

 

They had sent my family away, saying I still had hours to go. 20 minutes later they got a call from my hubby as they walked in the door at their house saying the kidlet had arrived.  For me, an epidural was a Godsend.

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Well, as they say with doctors and lawyers, even the person who graduates last in their class still gets a title. Miss Lucy may be one of those. 

Are you sure it's the same Lucy? That's a common enough name that one Lucy could be licensed and one could be not. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Temperance

[awaken]

Finally watched the episode on my phone. I liked jinger, too. She and Jeremy interacted with each other and other people normally. They weren’t cringeworthy. 

Michelle seemed always to be in the periphery and not an integral part of things. You always heard her voice in the background but there didn’t seem to be any close mother-daughter scenes shown. It felt like they just invited her to be polite, since the vuolo’s were invited. 

Im sure she felt crappy not being a major part of the support team as she had been in other births. J and J seemed to be coping just fine together and with their medical team. 

Jana seemed strangely disappointed in how the birth was going. Or am I misinterpreting and she was just worried about Jinger?

maybe she felt out of place and uncomfortable not having a major role in the process either, and on foreign turf. 

Laura seemed out of place in the post-birth room. Seems random that jinger’s sister’s friend would be there, but jessa’s visit was supposedly unplanned?  

[Sew Sumi]

Would an unlicensed midwife show her face on camera after Teresa Fedosky bailed on Jessa? I'm pretty sure this is the same woman I found on the CPM list. 

[lascuba]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I agree with what you said, but I do believe Jessa wishes she had a more mature husband. Bin's a good-hearted guy, but he's basically like a third kid. If Jessa doesn't hustle and keep the show going to support the family, there's no way he's going to be able to do it. I think she likes calling the shots but is starting to realize it's a double-edged sword. Jinger's life seems arguably less stressful.

I always thought that marrying Ben was a strategic move on Jessa's part--marry a man who loves you more than you love him, and all that--that has worked out well for the most part, but I agree that she's probably chafing a bit at being married to someone like him. I think any opinionated woman with a strong personality would. I agree, though, that she's not jealous over anything that Jinger has except maybe the luxuries, and even then, Jessa and Ben can't be pulling in much less money that Jinger and Jeremy, which makes me think that Jessa must be taking her father's dictates to save as much as possible seriously. 

[WalrusGirl]

7 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Would an unlicensed midwife show her face on camera after Teresa Fedosky bailed on Jessa? I'm pretty sure this is the same woman I found on the CPM list. 

Jinger’s midwife:

(Alisa Voss (?) Godfrey, LM, CPM)

(Unless this was re Joy’s midwife, who I was also looking up - in general, not credentials like you! - after watching late Monday night, but given the thread I’m thinking Jinger’s.)

[Jeeves]

2 hours ago, WalrusGirl said:

Jinger’s midwife:

(Alisa Voss (?) Godfrey, LM, CPM)

(Unless this was re Joy’s midwife, who I was also looking up - in general, not credentials like you! - after watching late Monday night, but given the thread I’m thinking Jinger’s.)

@Sew Sumi was talking about Joy's midwife, "Miss Lucy," not Jinger's midwife.

[ShaNaeNae]

I didn't realize she gave birth here in San Antonio.  I haven't paid much attention to the details and haven't seen the birth episode yet.  She looks different in his professional pic on the website.

 

 

[Heathen]

"Intensely primal and profound"? Okey dokey. 

I'm disappointed that the Vuolos used a "midwife," albeit a better-trained and more pragmatic one than sister Jilly, for at least Jinger's prenatal care. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Heathen
To change a word and add "pragmatic"

[BitterApple]

11 minutes ago, Heathen said:

"Intensely primal and profound"? Okey dokey. 

I'm disappointed that the Vuolos used a "midwife," albeit a better-qualified one than sister Jilly, for at least Jinger's prenatal care. 

I am too. I guess a birthing center is a step up from delivering at home, but you're still talking lay midwives, not CNM's. To each their own, and I understand Jinger is young and low-risk, but it's not a chance I'd be willing to take. I'm really surprised that Jeremy didn't insist on a degreed professional from the start, unless his insurance is so crappy they couldn't afford it.

It's just a reminder that Jinger hasn't really strayed as far off the reservation as we'd like to believe.

Edited August 9, 2018 by BitterApple

[Heathen]

28 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I am too. I guess a birthing center is a step up from delivering at home, but you're still talking lay midwives, not CNM's. To each their own, and I understand Jinger is young and low-risk, but it's not a chance I'd be willing to take. I'm really surprised that Jeremy didn't insist on a degreed professional from the start, unless his insurance is so crappy they couldn't afford it.

It's just a reminder that Jinger hasn't really strayed as far off the reservation as we'd like to believe.

 

The fact that their "midwife" is in San Antonio also tells me that television and agreeing to be seen on screen also played a role, whereas not many doctors will allow themselves to be filmed for tv for liability reasons. I find it difficult to believe the Vuolos couldn't find a real midwife closer to home, or better yet, an obstetrician who delivers in a damned hospital. 

Once a Duggar, always a Duggar, even if prettied up and modestly modernized. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Heathen
To correct punctuation -- is it Friday afternoon yet?

[BitterApple]

1 minute ago, Heathen said:

The fact that their "midwife" is in San Antonio also tells me that television and agreeing to be seen on screen also played a role, whereas not many doctors will allow themselves to be filmed for tv for liability reasons. I find it difficult to believe the Vuolos couldn't find a real midwife closer to home, or better yet, an obstetrician who delivers in a damned hospital. 

Once a Duggar, always a Duggar., even if prettied up and modestly modernized. 

Yeah, that had me confused as well. What exactly is so fabulous about this woman that it's worth driving four hours round trip for prenatal care? It would make sense if Jinger was high-risk or experiencing complications and needed to see a specialist, but all that distance to see a lay midwife? Does not compute, unless it's like you said, they couldn't find anyone closer to home willing to appear on tv. 

This also may not be the nicest thing to say, but part of me wonders if there wasn't a racial element involved. My understanding is Laredo is something like 80% Latino. Maybe they didn't feel like a brown person was qualified to deliver their baby. Complete speculation of course, but still. 

[Heathen]

4 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Yeah, that had me confused as well. What exactly is so fabulous about this woman that it's worth driving four hours round trip for prenatal care? It would make sense if Jinger was high-risk or experiencing complications and needed to see a specialist, but all that distance to see a lay midwife? Does not compute, unless it's like you said, they couldn't find anyone closer to home willing to appear on tv. 

This also may not be the nicest thing to say, but part of me wonders if there wasn't a racial element involved. My understanding is Laredo is something like 80% Latino. Maybe they didn't feel like a brown person was qualified to deliver their baby. Complete speculation of course, but still. 

I have to remind myself we only see what they want us to see. Maybe Jinger did have a real OB or real midwife in Laredo, and the "midwife" was only for show. Please let it be so. 

I'd think that if the Vuolos were bigots, they wouldn't be living in Laredo, but who knows. There are certainly more white bread cities in Texas if they didn't want to live amongst the browns. 

[Booking It]

22 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Yeah, that had me confused as well. What exactly is so fabulous about this woman that it's worth driving four hours round trip for prenatal care? 

My theory is that it gave them some adventure in their otherwise boring lives. They both literally have nothing to do all day (I don't believe for a split second that Jeremy puts in anything close to full time work as a pastor).  Making a longish trip every week probably made them feel like they were being productive.

I can hear Jinger gushing to others, "We found the most amazing midwife who is about two hours away, and we are just so busy going to all of these appointments. We barely have time to get anything done at home." To which the friends/sisters reply, "Oh, Jinger! I don't see how you do it all. You're amazing! Let's go for a pedicure."

[bythelake]

I researched Texas midwife requirements, and Texas dispenses two types of midwife licenses. 

The CNM is a nurse with a BSN and valid RN license who then completes a midwifery program in a hospital. There are two hospitals in Texas who offer this program. There are approx. 350 nurse midwives in Texas.

Before the U.S offered midwifery programs, RNs would go out of the country for training. I knew midwives who had studied in England and Scotland and they were excellent. ( If anyone watches Call the Midwife on PBS you'd know what I mean)

The CPM is someone with no nursing background, no required undergraduate degree who completes a course, takes an exam and then can be licensed by the state of Texas. According to the website the course is 34 months long, with 1500 hours clinical experience which is pretty intensive. There are 150 licensed professional midwives in Texas.  I don't recall Jill studying anywhere near 34 months and is she really licensed?

Texas seems to have more stringent regulations for their CPMs than Arkansas and Oklahoma and somehow I sense that Joy's midwife was in neither above category. (Think Theresa K)

The San Angelo birthing center is called Divine Design and is staffed by CPMs who are licensed by the state. LM means licensed midwife. It seems that Jinger did well, but it dawned on me that maybe neither she or Jeremy had a clue that there was a difference between the two types of midwives. 

Most CNMs work in hospitals with an Obstetrician as a back-up. In my later years, I worked in a 6 man group that employed 3 midwives. They were responsible for prenatal visits. gyn office visits for simple complaints. and did certain procedures that nurses weren't permitted to do, one being sonograms for fetal position. Usually, there was a doctor on site for advice, and the midwife's charts were always reviewed and cosigned by the doctor at the end of the day. At the hospital, the midwives made rounds, monitored patients and performed uncomplicated deliveries. Always with a backup.

Stand alone birthing centers in New Jersey ( where I am) seem to have gone out of fashion as hospitals have designed new birthing suites where the patient labors, delivers and recovers in the same room. The rooms are attractive and whole family can come and watch, and they usually do. 

People may think it's no big deal to deliver a baby. Most of the time it goes well. The labor and delivery unit was a happy place to work, that's why I loved it, but when something went wrong, and it could go wrong in a split second, it could become catastrophic. Even in a controlled environment things go wrong, and in my area, obstetricians and CNMs don't do home deliveries. Don't forget, there are 2 patients, the mother and the baby. The hospital has all the resources that the home doesn't such as staff, equipment, medications and blood.

It seems to me that the Duggars have a disdain for the medical profession in general, and they have passed that disdain down to the next generation. The obstetrical care  of the married girls has been sub-par to say the least. There have been hemorrhages, undiagnosed mal-presentations, and probably more than has been broadcast. All because of poor management by unqualified individuals. Didn't Michelle make the call to 911 when Jessa hemorrhaged? The midwife didn't call, she was nowhere to be found.

Funny, even after they blamed the pill for the miscarriage, Michelle had most of her subsequent deliveries in a hospital. And when she went into pre-term labor with Josie, she went to the medical center in Little Rock where both received the best of care. I guess what's good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander.

[doodlebug]

24 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I have to remind myself we only see what they want us to see. Maybe Jinger did have a real OB or real midwife in Laredo, and the "midwife" was only for show. Please let it be so. 

I'd think that if the Vuolos were bigots, they wouldn't be living in Laredo, but who knows. There are certainly more white bread cities in Texas if they didn't want to live amongst the browns. 

I'm trying to figure out how inducing labor and getting an epidural comes under the guise of a 'natural' birth in a freestanding birthing center.  Where I've worked, anyone who needed induced or wanted an epidural was not a candidate for the birthing center (which was actually part of the hospital) and would have to be moved to the regular birthing center on labor and delivery.  Of course, I work in a state where CPM's aren't licensed and the only ones I've encountered are doing home births on the sly, badly, IMO.

I think Jinger and Jeremy chose to give birth here because the center and its staff were amenable to being filmed for the show and I suspect her induction, aside from being convenient due to the distance between Laredo and San Antonio, was also scheduled for the convenience of TLC which otherwise might've had to have a camera crew on call for days or weeks awaiting spontaneous labor.  In Arkansas, the crew can be getting footage of other Duggar events while waiting,  not so much in Texas.  I also suspect that the financial incentives involved in allowing TLC access to the birth were substantial enough that Jeremy and Jinger felt it was well worth it to travel a couple hours each way for prenatal care.  From what I understand, a lot of CPM's don't do a lot of prenatal visits.  In standard obstetric care, 10-12 prenatal visits on a regular schedule is the norm.  A lot of CPM's seem to do maybe 4 scheduled visits unless the pregnant patient has a problem or wants more.

[graefin]

I thought she checked into the hospital and the midwife came along for support?

[Barb23]

I liked Jinger's midwife and I'm also confused. Did Jinger deliver at the Birthing  Center or a hospital? Is the Center part of a hospital?  It seemed like they were at a hospital when Jeremy was shown drinking coffee & Jinger showing him her ID bracelet & announcing she was "checked in." Her room seemed more hospital like plus she was given an epidural which I thought had to be given by an anesthesiologist.   Was she planning on a Birth Center birth but because she was being induced had to go to a hospital?  Thanks for your answers.

[graefin]

From what Jinger herself said, the original plan was a "natural" (home/birth center?) birth, but they "switched" (her word) to a hospital birth somewhere along the route.

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, graefin said:

From what Jinger herself said, the original plan was a "natural" (home/birth center?) birth, but they "switched" (her word) to a hospital birth somewhere along the route.

It was basically to have everything they needed on hand just in case. 

[ShaNaeNae]

I did notice the birthing center is in the medical center so she was close to hospitals if something went wrong, but still...

I had my youngest son here in San Antonio with a midwife (he's almost 17 now).  Difference being, the midwife was in an obstetricians office and I delivered in a hospital.  They also informed you that if for any reason, the midwife deems you high risk, you must immediately switch to one of their OB's. She could have easily used a midwife in that situation.

[BitterApple]

The original plan was to deliver in the birthing center, but Jinger decided to induce at the hospital because she didn't want a repeat of Jill/Jessa/Joy. I think her midwife was there as a birth coach, I don't believe she had any authority at the hospital or was involved in giving the nurses directions or orders, etc. I think the doctor was running the show, he just wouldn't appear on camera. My limited understanding is that most OB's don't partner with CPM's because of liability issues.

Edited August 9, 2018 by BitterApple

[ShaNaeNae]

15 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My limited understanding is that most OB's don't partner with CPM's because of liability issues.

Sounds right, the ones in the OBGYN group here are all CNM's.

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

The original plan was to deliver in the birthing center, but Jinger decided to induce at the hospital because she didn't want a repeat of Jill/Jessa/Joy. I think her midwife was there as a birth coach, I don't believe she had any authority at the hospital or was involved in giving the nurses directions or orders, etc. I think the doctor was running the show, he just wouldn't appear on camera. My limited understanding is that most OB's don't partner with CPM's because of liability issues.

Smart of Jinger and Jeremy not to take a chance. 

[floridamom]

Someone help me out here? How is it that an expectant mom can have both an ob/gyn AND a midwife? Who has the authority over the mom's case? Who does she see at her appointments? I would think the doc would need to examine and monitor her. What if their opinions clash?

[lascuba]

1,000 births in 20 years?! That number seems awfully low to me and there's no way that "midwfie" has the experience to deal or even recognize many types of obstetrical emergencies.

 

3 hours ago, Heathen said:

The fact that their "midwife" is in San Antonio also tells me that television and agreeing to be seen on screen also played a role, whereas not many doctors will allow themselves to be filmed for tv for liability reasons. I find it difficult to believe the Vuolos couldn't find a real midwife closer to home, or better yet, an obstetrician who delivers in a damned hospital. 

Once a Duggar, always a Duggar, even if prettied up and modestly modernized. 

Yep, had to be a TV-fueled decision. They probably went to the closest hospital that allowed cameras during labor and couldn't find another one that would also allowed cameras during the delivery. Notice how the video switched to phone footage during the actual birth. I really think that they filmed that without the ob/hospital's permission. 

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

This also may not be the nicest thing to say, but part of me wonders if there wasn't a racial element involved. My understanding is Laredo is something like 80% Latino. Maybe they didn't feel like a brown person was qualified to deliver their baby. Complete speculation of course, but still. 

Oh, I absolutely think this is the case. Even if most of the available doctors in their area are white, the fact that the patient population is mostly working class Latino means that the local hospital might be underserved.

3 hours ago, Heathen said:

I have to remind myself we only see what they want us to see. Maybe Jinger did have a real OB or real midwife in Laredo, and the "midwife" was only for show. Please let it be so. 

I'd think that if the Vuolos were bigots, they wouldn't be living in Laredo, but who knows. There are certainly more white bread cities in Texas if they didn't want to live amongst the browns. 

I mean, look at the gentrifiers in Brooklyn calling the police on the locals over stupid shit.

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

The original plan was to deliver in the birthing center, but Jinger decided to induce at the hospital because she didn't want a repeat of Jill/Jessa/Joy. I think her midwife was there as a birth coach, I don't believe she had any authority at the hospital or was involved in giving the nurses directions or orders, etc. I think the doctor was running the show, he just wouldn't appear on camera. My limited understanding is that most OB's don't partner with CPM's because of liability issues.

I have a feeling there was something else going on other than a concern for size. Her sisters' experiences were likely a factor and the convenient excuse, but if that were the only concern, she never would have gone for a lay midwife at a birth center to begin with. 

[magpye29]

3 hours ago, bythelake said:

Michelle had most of her subsequent deliveries in a hospital. And when she went into pre-term labor with Josie, she went to the medical center in Little Rock where both received the best of care. I guess what's good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander.

Or the goslings...

[DragonFaerie]

I think that maybe she started with the Birth Center CPM and then Joy had Gideon and that was another f*cked up birth that involved another c-section and she got scared.  Or Jeremy got scared. And they talked with this CPM and she may have transferred them to a local, San Antonio, OB.  And the doctor was nice enough to keep her informed and she him or her on the exercises she was having Jinger doing and then she was ok to be filmed leaving the doctor off screen.  Especially because it used to be, and may still be, that the epidural would have to be given by an anestheseologist and I don't think a CPM could prescribe pitocen and order an IV line put in to a nurse.

[floridamom]

I never heard of anyone consuming prescribed herbs to prepare for labor and delivery. This midwife also is described to have married 'her best friend'.....makes me wonder, even with a short hair style and a job does she hold many of the same "Duggar-type" beliefs?" Didn't they say that her office and delivery 'experience' that she offers new moms is in HER HOME? Something is off here to me.

[Temperance]

3 hours ago, bythelake said:

I researched Texas midwife requirements, and Texas dispenses two types of midwife licenses. 

The CNM is a nurse with a BSN and valid RN license who then completes a midwifery program in a hospital. There are two hospitals in Texas who offer this program. There are approx. 350 nurse midwives in Texas.

Before the U.S offered midwifery programs, RNs would go out of the country for training. I knew midwives who had studied in England and Scotland and they were excellent. ( If anyone watches Call the Midwife on PBS you'd know what I mean)

The CPM is someone with no nursing background, no required undergraduate degree who completes a course, takes an exam and then can be licensed by the state of Texas. According to the website the course is 34 months long, with 1500 hours clinical experience which is pretty intensive. There are 150 licensed professional midwives in Texas.  I don't recall Jill studying anywhere near 34 months and is she really licensed?

Texas seems to have more stringent regulations for their CPMs than Arkansas and Oklahoma and somehow I sense that Joy's midwife was in neither above category. (Think Theresa K)

The San Angelo birthing center is called Divine Design and is staffed by CPMs who are licensed by the state. LM means licensed midwife. It seems that Jinger did well, but it dawned on me that maybe neither she or Jeremy had a clue that there was a difference between the two types of midwives. 

Most CNMs work in hospitals with an Obstetrician as a back-up. In my later years, I worked in a 6 man group that employed 3 midwives. They were responsible for prenatal visits. gyn office visits for simple complaints. and did certain procedures that nurses weren't permitted to do, one being sonograms for fetal position. Usually, there was a doctor on site for advice, and the midwife's charts were always reviewed and cosigned by the doctor at the end of the day. At the hospital, the midwives made rounds, monitored patients and performed uncomplicated deliveries. Always with a backup.

Stand alone birthing centers in New Jersey ( where I am) seem to have gone out of fashion as hospitals have designed new birthing suites where the patient labors, delivers and recovers in the same room. The rooms are attractive and whole family can come and watch, and they usually do. 

People may think it's no big deal to deliver a baby. Most of the time it goes well. The labor and delivery unit was a happy place to work, that's why I loved it, but when something went wrong, and it could go wrong in a split second, it could become catastrophic. Even in a controlled environment things go wrong, and in my area, obstetricians and CNMs don't do home deliveries. Don't forget, there are 2 patients, the mother and the baby. The hospital has all the resources that the home doesn't such as staff, equipment, medications and blood.

It seems to me that the Duggars have a disdain for the medical profession in general, and they have passed that disdain down to the next generation. The obstetrical care  of the married girls has been sub-par to say the least. There have been hemorrhages, undiagnosed mal-presentations, and probably more than has been broadcast. All because of poor management by unqualified individuals. Didn't Michelle make the call to 911 when Jessa hemorrhaged? The midwife didn't call, she was nowhere to be found.

Funny, even after they blamed the pill for the miscarriage, Michelle had most of her subsequent deliveries in a hospital. And when she went into pre-term labor with Josie, she went to the medical center in Little Rock where both received the best of care. I guess what's good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander.

Michelle went into premature labor with Josie?   What I remember was that she just pregnant (about 5/6 months along) and her blood pressure was elevated and there were other medical factors that created a stroke risk, which made the doctors decide to an emergency c-section, but I have no memory of her ever being in-labor with Josie. (Someone else may be able to clarify what happened better than me.)

Michelle did make the call when Jessa was hemorrhaging.

It wouldn't surprise me if like the weddings, we got the shortened sneak peak of the last three births and if they show extended birth episodes later that reveal more. 

[Snow Fairy]

Is there anywhere where we not from USA can watch the birth episode? I'm curious, but can't watch it

[zoomama]

i did finally get to see the videos on my phone. not sure why it wouldnt work on my desktop...

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Snow Fairy said:

Is there anywhere where we not from USA can watch the birth episode? I'm curious, but can't watch it

I was able to find it on YouTube, hopefully the video will play for you:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4pJd8rz-NIY

[asuwur]

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

I never heard of anyone consuming prescribed herbs to prepare for labor and delivery. This midwife also is described to have married 'her best friend'.....makes me wonder, even with a short hair style and a job does she hold many of the same "Duggar-type" beliefs?" Didn't they say that her office and delivery 'experience' that she offers new moms is in HER HOME? Something is off here to me.

Not Duggar leaning most likely. Just crunchy is my guess.

[leighdear]

@BitterApple, thanks for posting that video.  I don't usually watch the episodes, but that was very sweet.  To me, Baaaaabe seemed pretty much in awe of the whole process, and very admiring of what Jing had done.  Jing was pretty Zen about the whole thing, maybe all the herbs worked, plus the epidural.  She seemed to have sailed right through.  

Jessa looked really good, and from that video, her behavior seemed supportive, natural & a bit envious, but not jealous.  She admitted to having some baby fever, but it seemed to be with a genuine smile.  She probably WAS jealous that Jing got it over with so quickly and that Felicity was smaller than everybody else's baby.  

[xtwheeler]

4 hours ago, floridamom said:

Someone help me out here? How is it that an expectant mom can have both an ob/gyn AND a midwife? Who has the authority over the mom's case? Who does she see at her appointments? I would think the doc would need to examine and monitor her. What if their opinions clash?

Nurse Midwives work under the authority of OB/GYNs, in the same way a PA or an NP would. The CNM's charts are reviewed by the supervising OB/GYN at the end of every day/shift, and the final responsibility for the care always falls to the OB/GYN. An expectant mother who is not deemed "high risk" or otherwise risked out of CNM care can be seen by the CNM for prenatal visits. Many practices will have the expectant mother meet with all the members of the care team over the pregnancy to familiarize her with whomever may be available when she is in labor. The OB/GYN always has authority over the CNM. If their opinions clash, the OB/GYN is the physician. The CNM is a nurse midwife. Just as with all other support staff, the final authority resides with the physician whose practice the CNM practices with.  There is no circumstance in which a CNM could or would "overrule" the physician for whom she works  or if in a hospital setting the case was being overseen by another OB/GYN physician, that physician always has absolute authority and responsibility for the medical care provided by support staff, of which a CNM is, at the end of the day. Just like your L&D nurse wouldn't tell your OBGYN she disagrees with a medical decision the doctor has made, nor would a CNM. They're just not equivalent positions, responsibilities, educations, jobs, etc.

[Sew Sumi]

Jinger's midwife is not a CNM.

[WalrusGirl]

14 hours ago, Jeeves said:

@Sew Sumi was talking about Joy's midwife, "Miss Lucy," not Jinger's midwife.

Ah, thanks. When I did some minor googling after watching Monday’s episode (with Joy’s midwife and the glucose check), I came up with Lucy Ferguson, Licensed Midwife, CPM: https://hearttoheartmidwifery.com/ The photo on her site seems to match who we saw on screen, just with straightened hair. @Sew Sumi, if that matches the CPM you checked out? “Serving Northwest Arkansas (NWA), southwest Missouri, and northeast Oklahoma,” if the various states she services are useful.

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The original plan was to deliver in the birthing center, but Jinger decided to induce at the hospital because she didn't want a repeat of Jill/Jessa/Joy. I think her midwife was there as a birth coach, I don't believe she had any authority at the hospital or was involved in giving the nurses directions or orders, etc. I think the doctor was running the show, he just wouldn't appear on camera. My limited understanding is that most OB's don't partner with CPM's because of liability issues.

 

I wondered about that too - Jinger did reference her OB agreeing re inducing as well, and she was checked into a hospital and someone with prescription privileges was ordering pitocin and the epidural. I have a friend/acquaintance who’s a doula and assists (and possibly “does”? *shrugs*) both home and hospital births. In medical settings, she’s officially just a support person for the patient - encouragement, positioning techniques, supporting mom and dad in advocating for themselves and translating medical, etc. People do keep a foot in both doors, so I’m thinking at whatever point she also established a relationship with an OB, the OB delivered and ran that show, and Jinger also did the natural stuff with the midwife and had the midwife there for the cameras (and maybe also coming in and out as a support person).

Edited August 10, 2018 by WalrusGirl
Clarity