The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[graefin]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Jingle doesn't really miss anybody. If, as it's appeared, the three she kind of liked were Jessa, Joe and Jana, then one's a bossy know-it-all bitch and the other two don't say anything. So what's to miss? She may have figured that out pretty easily.

Her body language during the Skype call with her sisters certainly would indicate that she doesn't really miss anyone and is happy on her own.

Jessa: "So, do you miss us?"
Jinger: "Yes, I miss you!" <scratches neck uncomfortably>

[flyingdi]

I know Jessa can be bitchy and, certainly bossy but I still don't think Jinger is a follower.  I think she's the type that would listen, possibly agree with and then do whatever she wanted to do in the first place.

In the world of people who lead, follow or get out of the way, Jinger is the one sitting quietly in a corner, snickering to herself.

Besides Jessa needs Jinger more than the other way around.  Who else would talk to strangers for her?

[Marigold]

I can't stand Jeremy but I do think Jinger and Jeremy really do click together.  They seem happy and in love. 

[Albanyguy]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Jingle didn't appear to have any really solid role or specific place in the family that gave her any standing in her parents' eyes or anybody else's in the TTH; she was just one of the million kids in the middle, who are all largely disregarded by everyone unless they step out of line in  some way.

And I think Jinger was regarded by JB and Michelle (and probably by the older kids) as a potential troublemaker. Remember the time she dared to say that it was her dream to live in a big city someday? To us, that didn't seem like a big deal, but to the Duggars, it was heresy. Her sisters moved in to shut her down ("You don't know what the Lord has planned for you!") and Michelle quickly did damage control ("She just means that she wants to live near a Wal-Mart!"). Since they avidly follow themselves on social media, they must have been aware that Jinger had a lot of fans like us, who were rooting for her to escape from the cult. There was even a website named "Free Jinger", which must have given her parents fits. I'm sure she was watched very carefully for any signs of trouble. 

Control Freak Jim Bob very clearly did not like Jeremy and felt threatened by him, yet consented to the marriage anyway. I think it was not only because he needed to provide TLC with a new courtship/wedding arc, but because he regarded Jinger as a loose cannon and was anxious to get her safely married off and settled down.

[BitterApple]

That scene with the "live in the city" comment gave us a true sense of what happens in that family if you dare to express an individual thought. As much as the Duggars pretend their children have choices and freedom to pursue their own interests, it's all a crock of b.s. 

Regarding the above pictures, the one with Jeremy carrying Jinger up the stairs is really sweet. They look so happy and normal. I also never realized how much Jinger and Joy look alike until I saw then side by side like that.

I also think if Bin had a chance to do it over, he would've gone for Jinger instead of Jessa.

[Scarlett45]

24 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

And I think Jinger was regarded by JB and Michelle (and probably by the older kids) as a potential troublemaker. Remember the time she dared to say that it was her dream to live in a big city someday? To us, that didn't seem like a big deal, but to the Duggars, it was heresy. Her sisters moved in to shut her down ("You don't know what the Lord has planned for you!") and Michelle quickly did damage control ("She just means that she wants to live near a Wal-Mart!"). Since they avidly follow themselves on social media, they must have been aware that Jinger had a lot of fans like us, who were rooting for her to escape from the cult. There was even a website named "Free Jinger", which must have given her parents fits. I'm sure she was watched very carefully for any signs of trouble. 

Control Freak Jim Bob very clearly did not like Jeremy and felt threatened by him, yet consented to the marriage anyway. I think it was not only because he needed to provide TLC with a new courtship/wedding arc, but because he regarded Jinger as a loose cannon and was anxious to get her safely married off and settled down.

I also think JB consented to the courtship and marriage because he knew Jeremy was as "party line" as Jinger as ever going to go. If he didn't consent they may have been together anyway, OR Jinger would've met someone else and blew the lid off of the idea of "courtship". 

After Jessa got married I don't think Jinger was going to be content being a SAHD like Jana. She met Jeremy, fell for him (and he for her) and that was that. They had been "talking" far longer than they had been courting, and I'm sure when Jeremy made that trip to AK to ask JB to court her, he and Jinger and already decided they were a thing. 

 

I do do wonder who took that picture or if they set up the tripod. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Scarlett45

[SnarkyShark]

19 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Babe and  Babe hit up the gun range 

Is it bad that I secretly wonder if Jinger is imagining Jim Boob or MEchelle's face on the target while she is shooting. Oh well, I am already a heathen sinner according to them.

[GeeGolly]

I don't think anyone, with possibly the exception of Jana, puts a whole lot of thought into who the potential mates are. JB & M want them to be God fearing Christians and the girls have the emotional maturity of teenagers. Lets face it, in the real world getting married within 6 months of meeting feels risky, even to the ones getting married. And while no one goes into marriage thinking about divorce, most know in the back of their minds its at least an option.

The Duggar girls and their parents think its cool to make a life long decision based on a questionnaire and superficial dating. Not one of them was even a fully formed adult going into marriage, except maybe Jeremy. God doesn't make marriages of Fundies any easier or more healthy than other relationships. Jinger took the same naive risk that her sisters took. So far it looks like she lucked out. But to me that is what it is - luck.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

Control Freak Jim Bob very clearly did not like Jeremy and felt threatened by him, yet consented to the marriage anyway. I think it was not only because he needed to provide TLC with a new courtship/wedding arc, but because he regarded Jinger as a loose cannon and was anxious to get her safely married off and settled down.

 

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also think JB consented to the courtship and marriage because he knew Jeremy was as "party line" as Jinger as ever going to go. If he didn't consent they may have been together anyway, OR Jinger would've met someone else and blew the lid off of the idea of "courtship". 

After Jessa got married I don't think Jinger was going to be content being a SAHD like Jana. She met Jeremy, fell for him (and he for her) and that was that. They had been "talking" far longer than they had been courting, and I'm sure when Jeremy made that trip to AK to ask JB to court her, he and Jinger and already decided they were a thing. 

I also think that Jeremy very deftly beat JB at JB's own game, in JB's home court. Heh.

IMO, as @Albanyguy and @Scarlett45 said, Jin and Jer had met (courtesy of Jessa and Ben), and in the course of Duggar-acceptable activities like a missioncation, they'd fallen for each other. Probably without Pompous Ass JB's prior permission, hee hee. (ETA: don't know if the date of that picture above which Jinger sez is when she fell for Jeremy, is before or after they got "permission to court.")

And then, Jeremy just flat outplayed JB.

JB handed Jeremy his Very Special Fifty-Page Questionnaire That You Must Complete Before THINKING of Courting My Daughter, You Sweaty-handed Evil-Minded Slimeball™. And Jeremy not only takes it, he returns a One Hundred Page response to JB.

And in the religion category, Jeremy's not just a fundie, he's a fundie pastor. And Jeremy's dad is a fundie pastor. 

Jeremy has an apartment in Laredo. Jeremy's paying the rent, not JB, and Jeremy's got a job and an income, and a home where he and his bride will live. Cue the impotent rage, as JB barely suppresses his urge to literally pee on the carpet in Jeremy's place.

I'd probably want to punch Jeremy in the throat if I met him and he started preaching at me, but I give him props for handling JB, apparently without breaking a sweat. 

Well played, Jeremy. Well played.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Jeeves

[Sew Sumi]

If I recall the timeline correctly, they first really noticed each other on the missioncation (12/15). Jeremy asked Boob if he could "get to know" Jinger once they returned home. They didn't start courting until May. 

[Marigold]

I think Jim Bob very clearly understood that if he did not give permission to marry, Jinger would've eloped.

Jim Bob saved face and "gave permission". 

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

 

I also think that Jeremy very deftly beat JB at JB's own game, in JB's home court. Heh.

IMO, as @Albanyguy and @Scarlett45 said, Jin and Jer had met (courtesy of Jessa and Ben), and in the course of Duggar-acceptable activities like a missioncation, they'd fallen for each other. Probably without Pompous Ass JB's prior permission, hee hee. (ETA: don't know if the date of that picture above which Jinger sez is when she fell for Jeremy, is before or after they got "permission to court.")

And then, Jeremy just flat outplayed JB.

JB handed Jeremy his Very Special Fifty-Page Questionnaire That You Must Complete Before THINKING of Courting My Daughter, You Sweaty-handed Evil-Minded Slimeball™. And Jeremy not only takes it, he returns a One Hundred Page response to JB.

And in the religion category, Jeremy's not just a fundie, he's a fundie pastor. And Jeremy's dad is a fundie pastor. 

Jeremy has an apartment in Laredo. Jeremy's paying the rent, not JB, and Jeremy's got a job and an income, and a home where he and his bride will live. Cue the impotent rage, as JB barely suppresses his urge to literally pee on the carpet in Jeremy's place.

I'd probably want to punch Jeremy in the throat if I met him and he started preaching at me, but I give him props for handling JB, apparently without breaking a sweat. 

Well played, Jeremy. Well played.

Yup. The misscioncation was BEFORE Jeremy asked permission to court, its when they actually first met on that trip together. Jeremy and Jinger had been "talking" for at least 8months before he officially asked to court, that's why the courtship was so quick and Jinger kept saying "we are on the fast track". Remember Jeremy was at Jessa's baby shower for Spurge. 

[Sew Sumi]

The shower was back in October, before the missioncation where they fell in wuv. They probably just had a nodding acquaintance at that point. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, SnarkyShark said:

Is it bad that I secretly wonder if Jinger is imagining Jim Boob or MEchelle's face on the target while she is shooting. Oh well, I am already a heathen sinner according to them.

LOL! I was wondering the same thing.

[Arwen Evenstar]

24 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

LOL! I was wondering the same thing.

Or maybe Joshley?

[RedheadZombie]

7 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Jingle doesn't really miss anybody. If, as it's appeared, the three she kind of liked were Jessa, Joe and Jana, then one's a bossy know-it-all bitch and the other two don't say anything. So what's to miss? She may have figured that out pretty easily.

There have been two movers away before her, and while neither Josh nor Jill handled it well, Jinger's in quite a different position, I think. Unlike both Josh and Jill, Jingle didn't appear to have any really solid role or specific place in the family that gave her any standing in her parents' eyes or anybody else's in the TTH; she was just one of the million kids in the middle, who are all largely disregarded by everyone unless they step out of line in  some way. So she didn't lose a big fairly positive role at home and feel she had to find a new one somewhat like it. And unlike Jill, she's moved to an American city that's basically a middle-class/working-class area in the south, pretty much like NWA where she's from, and it's a place where people speak English (and the signs and the newspapers and the food labels etc. are in English), unlike DA, so she isn't facing the kind of pretty predictable disorientation in that regard that Jill faced. 

I think Jingle may well feel that there's really nothing for her to miss. ... That being the case, I'm hoping she realizes that this is because she barely had a life when she was in the TTH. And that she'll be the Duggar who starts getting a clue that she can live differently. And that she'll do it. 

As usual, I'm probably setting myself up for disappointment with this crowd, though. lol 

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

[latetotheparty]

6 hours ago, magpye29 said:

I'm happy for Jinger.  She has a life so different from what she grew up with, a man who seems besotted with her, and a world of new experiences just waiting for her to discover them.  I have no problem with her being on a shooting range--I've done so myself (and I live in Massachusetts!).  Hey, when the Zombie Apocalypse arrives, Jinger can save us all!  Also, I think she looks adorable, and even though I don't love her hair, most of the girls and young women I see are wearing a similar look.

Besotted is such an excellent word!

3 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

If she was that's not on her.  Those girls should never have been put in that position.  Look at Jill.  By all accounts a great buddy but now she can't parent her own children. 

[Sew Sumi]

12 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

I think the only buddy she's had left for a while is Hannie; Jubilee was scheduled to be hers. She had Jason, but he hasn't been on a buddy team in years. To be honest, we were never shown Jinger with her buddy team, even in the early years.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think the only buddy she's had left for a while is Hannie; Jubilee was scheduled to be hers. She had Jason, but he hasn't been on a buddy team in years. To be honest, we were never shown Jinger with her buddy team, even in the early years.

Probably no secondary gain for Jinger as there was for Jana, Jill and Jessa. I believe Jana took her job seriously because she was proving something to God, Michelle and herself. Jill was being the good girl and also playing house and Jessa needed bodies to bully and control. Jinger probably helped her team get dressed and not get lost on outings while Jessa disciplined them and Jill played with them. 

[Churchhoney]

25 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

Well, I just don't think the kids - - any of them -- have actually been allowed to get what we'd think of as close. Just based on my own experience -- which of course could have nothing to do with this -- I expect that no actual openness is allowed in that family, that real conversation is always completely squelched, that everybody's kept on edge at all times and set against each other as spies and squealers and that the only language and "thinking" and "feeling" that are modeled are rote incantations of the limited amount of permitted speech that's  all about covering over anything real that may be underneath. And that what they're trained to see "openness" as meaning is confessing your worst thoughts to your parents and then getting batted down because of them.

If that's even partly true, then your chances of getting actually close to anyone would be quite slim. And if you're the enforcer for a group of younger kids -- and if at the age of 12 you're already tasked with changing and feeding and enforcing school-work completion for a bunch of kids who aren't yours -- how "close" is either side of that relationship likely to feel, really, at least for most people? I can see them having been "close" in the moment, by their definition of "close." But if you actually are in a situation where you never actually share much of anything real with people because of the situation, then even if you were close at the time, there's not really a lot to "miss" when the other person is gone. 

But I don't think that their not missing each other would mean that they weren't quite decent and even nice to each other when they were together. You can be reasonably kind to each other and do your duty toward another person yet still share nothing. And it's the sharing you miss when another person is gone -- that's what I think, anyway. 

But, as I said, I could be totally wrong about this! They may be a family where there's tons of closeness. I just see similarities to my family, so I say this based only a perceived analogy that may not hold at all. 

[kokapetl]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

Jinger had Jedidiah and Johannah. I don't think their relationship was ever something like Jana and Jackson's. Jackson used to sneak into the girl's room every night to sleep next to his "mom". I think the oldest two J-slaves did most of the parenting. An arrangement of four pseudo parents plus two supervising parents seems like it would be unworkable. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Fostersmom]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa  Michelle?  

Fixed that for you. 

I think Jinger misses her siblings about as much as any 23 year old does. She was close to Jessa and seems to relatively miss her, but as for the rest, especially the younger kids, I have no doubt she loves her sibling in various degrees, but she's moved on like a normal woman of her age. 

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

Besotted is such an excellent word!

If she was that's not on her.  Those girls should never have been put in that position.  Look at Jill.  By all accounts a great buddy but now she can't parent her own children. 

It absolutely wasn't her responsibility.   But the ability to stand by and watch a young child suffer from neglect and not help takes a special kind of person.   I'm glad it doesn't bother you but it bothers me. I wouldn't stand by and let a snake be neglected, and I can't stand snakes.  And I would do it regardless of how lazy and irresponsible the snake owner was.  

Not sure what Jill has to do with anything, but I realize she's the #1 punching bag. It wasn't Jill or Jana's responsibility to raise this litter either, but they did it.  And seemingly picked up all the slack Jessa and Jinger left.  Which means Jessa and maybe Jinger had no problem watching their older sisters bust their asses.  Maybe it was Jessa's influence, but Jinger doesn't get a break IF she neglected her buddies, IMO. 

[BunnyBlueBrown]

1 minute ago, RedheadZombie said:

It absolutely wasn't her responsibility.   But the ability to stand by and watch a young child suffer from neglect and not help takes a special kind of person.   I'm glad it doesn't bother you but it bothers me. I wouldn't stand by and let a snake be neglected, and I can't stand snakes.  And I would do it regardless of how lazy and irresponsible the snake owner was.  

Not sure what Jill has to do with anything, but I realize she's the #1 punching bag. It wasn't Jill or Jana's responsibility to raise this litter either, but they did it.  And seemingly picked up all the slack Jessa and Jinger left.  Which means Jessa and maybe Jinger had no problem watching their older sisters bust their asses.  Maybe it was Jessa's influence, but Jinger doesn't get a break IF she neglected her buddies, IMO. 

Key word: IF... bigger idea: Assumptions 

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think the only buddy she's had left for a while is Hannie; Jubilee was scheduled to be hers. She had Jason, but he hasn't been on a buddy team in years. To be honest, we were never shown Jinger with her buddy team, even in the early years.

Jinger dodged the Josie bullett.  It was her turn, but someone figured out a responsible and older sibling was needed for Josie.  Which doesn't excuse the lousy parents. 

They never showed any reaction between Hannie and Jinger. How is that possible? Was she shunted on Jessa and Jill, too.  

1 minute ago, DOBABYR said:

Key word: IF... bigger idea: Assumptions 

Which is why I put if in all caps, lol.  My goodness I know Jinger is the golden child here, but aren't I allowed to have a differing opinion?

[RedheadZombie]

29 minutes ago, Fostersmom said:

Fixed that for you. 

I think Jinger misses her siblings about as much as any 23 year old does. She was close to Jessa and seems to relatively miss her, but as for the rest, especially the younger kids, I have no doubt she loves her sibling in various degrees, but she's moved on like a normal woman of her age. 

At no point have I, in any way, implied that Michelle and JB are not bad parents who handed all caretaking to their oldest girls.  There are many siblings who have absent and/or horribly negligent parents who take care of their younger siblings, because it takes a certain person to turn a blind eye to the suffering and neglect to a sibling if they can help, and the alternative is for that child to suffer.

Is this really such a controversial statement?   My goodness the reaction. 

[Absolom]

Actually, Joy Anna was destined to have Josie as a buddy.  She's the one they were initially training on the oxygen.  The technician probably had to explain to them that it really should be an adult handling that.

[GeeGolly]

So Jinger was taking care of 6 month old Jedidiah when she was 5 1/2? Yikes!

[SMama]

@Absolom that is truly terrifying, I don't let anyone (except husband) care for my ten year old when she has the common cold. No way would I turn over a micro preemie (or any child) to a child. I pray there's a special place in hell for Boob and Mullet. 

Re Jackson sneaking in the girls' room to sleep next to Jana, this was pre TTH? Because the girls locked the doors in the TTH dorm. Because godly Joshley. 

[Sew Sumi]

29 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

So Jinger was taking care of 6 month old Jedidiah when she was 5 1/2? Yikes!

See, that's why I thought she got Jason. Not much better, but at least some improvement. But overall, it just goes to show how whackadoo Mechelle's Buddy System was. 

eta: Damn, Koka was right. Here are the buddy teams as of 2014. 

Quote

Jana - Josie, Jackson, Jason

Jill - Joy, Jenni, James (Guessing Joy has these two now)

Jessa - Jordyn, Jer, Justin

Jinger - Johannah, Jed.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

48 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Maybe it was Jessa's influence, but Jinger doesn't get a break IF she neglected her buddies, IMO. 

But my point is -- You can be a quite conscientious and caring caregiver -- and yet not miss those people when you're gone.

I know, from my own experience, that you can be a very very very conscientious and warm family caregiver -- and still not miss the people you gave care to after you go. That's my personal experience. I took my family responsibilities with great seriousness when I was a kid. I was consumed with them, actually. Some of my most painful memories to this day are times when somebody got hurt or disappointed and I wasn't able to fend off that pain from them. And I did feel extremely guilty when I left before anybody expected me to.

But had I developed a closeness with some people I cared for to the point that I missed them when I was gone? No. .... When I was gone, I felt very guilty for leaving people, and I still felt horrible about times when I hadn't done enough or been able to do enough -- I still remember with great emotional pain incidents of that to this day, many decades later. .... But I did not miss people. I was not lonely for them. And I did not miss being at home. Not for a minute. 

Now you can think that that means I wasn't responsible and responsive and warm when I was at home. But that'd simply not be true. .... 

So maybe Jinger was like me. She could have been a great sister mom, but still not miss her buddies after she was gone. .... Or not. Could go either way. But if she doesn't miss them, I know for certain that that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about how she behaved toward them when she was there. She might have been a great sister mom, a horrible sister mom or anything in between. Missing them when you're gone just doesn't have anything to do with that! And I've lived it! ..... We just can't tell from her current feelings what she was like in that role. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Churchhoney

[RedheadZombie]

3 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

But my point is -- You can be a quite conscientious and caring caregiver -- and yet not miss those people when you're gone.

I know, from my own experience, that you can be a very very very conscientious and warm family caregiver -- and still not miss the people you gave care to after you go. That's my personal experience. I took my family responsibilities with great seriousness when I was a kid. I was consumed with them, actually. Some of my most painful memories to this day are times when somebody got hurt or disappointed and I wasn't able to fend off that pain from them. And I did feel extremely guilty when I left before anybody expected me to.

But had I developed a closeness with some people I cared for to the point that I missed them when I was gone? No. .... When I was gone, I felt very guilty for leaving people, and I still felt horrible about times when I hadn't done enough or been able to do enough -- I still remember with great emotional pain incidents of that to this day, many decades later. .... But I did not miss people. I was not lonely for them. And I did not miss being at home. Not for a minute. 

Now you can think that that means I wasn't responsible and responsive and warm when I was at home. But that'd simply not be true. .... 

So maybe Jinger was like me. She could have been a great sister mom, but still not miss her buddies after she was gone. .... Or not. Could go either way. But if she doesn't miss them, I know for certain that that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about how she behaved toward them when she was there. She might have been a great sister mom, a horrible sister mom or anything in between. Missing them when you're gone just doesn't have anything to do with that! And I've lived it! ..... We just can't tell from her current feelings what she was like in that role. 

Of course I believe you and that's reassuring.  I just see such strong connections with Jill and Jana.  It's surprising to see it absent in Jessa and Jinger. 

You sound like you went above and beyond and were very nurturing of your siblings   .  I just thought that would be the rule rather than the exception.

[Fuzzysox]

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

The idea that Jinger doesn't miss her buddies bothers me.   Was she as detached and negligent as Jessa?  

I think for the first time in her life she has freedom. Freedom from having to be a slave for her parents. She doesn't have a million loads of laundry to do and can finally have the freedom to wear PANTS!!!! I think this is the life Jinger dreamed about, moving away and living in the city vs being stuck in the middle of nowhere having to only socialize with her brothers or sisters. At least she has a chance to explore. She looks happy!!

Edited July 10, 2017 by Fuzzysox

[magpye29]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, I just don't think the kids - - any of them -- have actually been allowed to get what we'd think of as close. Just based on my own experience -- which of course could have nothing to do with this -- I expect that no actual openness is allowed in that family, that real conversation is always completely squelched, that everybody's kept on edge at all times and set against each other as spies and squealers and that the only language and "thinking" and "feeling" that are modeled are rote incantations of the limited amount of permitted speech that's  all about covering over anything real that may be underneath.

What Churchhoney said.  I wasn't raised fundy (Catholic here) and there were only three of us, but my father was gone a lot because of his job, and my mother really pitted us against each other.  My mother says she raised us to be close, but when you're tap-dancing your way out of trouble (which usually means throwing someone else under the bus), how close can you get, really?  And with three, someone is always the odd one out--it may not always be the same one, but it's always someone.  Fifty-odd years later (and they were very odd years), my sister and I are as close as we know how to be, but it's not best girlfriend close.  We had a lot of freedom as kids (I rode my bike all over the place, and I know my mother never knew where I was), but we were never allowed to have an opinion about how our parents treated us, and when we tried to tell our dad what went on while he was away, that did not go well for us, and it went even worse when he left again.  Nope, no closeness.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Of course I believe you and that's reassuring.  I just see such strong connections with Jill and Jana.  It's surprising to see it absent in Jessa and Jinger. 

You sound like you went above and beyond and were very nurturing of your siblings   .  I just thought that would be the rule rather than the exception.

Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. Having lived in a problematic situation with similarities to that,  though, I expect it's probably about 50-50, going both ways. I mean, there's reason to be caring, definitely. But there's also reason to be confused and distressed by the whole thing and just not know what to do with it, too. I mean, the reason we don't routinely ask young kids to care for other people is that they just aren't equipped to do it. Somebody's supposed to be meeting their physical and emotional needs. They're supposed to be spared having to do it for others. And apparently, Jinger was a sister mom to one of the twins? Geez. She was so young. Impossible to even know what motivates kids of that age or how they'll respond to something .... And we don't know know what Jinger's actual sister-momming was like. She could have been really good and responsible at it -- and still not miss those kids! ... She's escaped a pretty horrible situation. So even if she cared for the kids devotedly, being out of the situation could be such a thrill that she wouldn't miss them.  The whole thing is just so unhealthy that her response -- or anybody's -- isn't going to be very rational, I think.  And, of course, it could be the age or nature of the kids she cared for, too. They may not feel the same pull for whatever reason. 

[GeeGolly]

If we look at Jinger's situation as a mix of going to college and empty nesting I think her behavior is seemingly normal. When a sibling goes off to college they miss each other and the college kid probably gets homesick now and again. And empty nest parents miss their kids too, but not always to the point of distraction. Jinger is sort of a mom that left for college. I'm sure she misses everyone in her family but is also distracted by new love and a new life. 

[Marigold]

I always thought that Jinger and Jessa were very emotionally detached from the family. 

Way back, I used to say they were "mean girls".  Only into themselves, a little clique and bitchy.  I never liked Jinger at all and never really knew why she was such the favorite.  I'm glad she is happy and doing well but I still find her extremely annoying. I see her as very fake and sugar sweet to your face.  At least Jessa is full on bitch.  ;) 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Marigold

[Jellybeans]

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

If we look at Jinger's situation as a mix of going to college and empty nesting I think her behavior is seemingly normal. When a sibling goes off to college they miss each other and the college kid probably gets homesick now and again. And empty nest parents miss their kids too, but not always to the point of distraction. Jinger is sort of a mom that left for college. I'm sure she misses everyone in her family but is also distracted by new love and a new life. 

I married young and moved to a different state. Loved my family but didn't miss them.  Was ready for my own life.  Some people are like that.  Jinger strikes me as the independent sort.  She grew up a Duggar but I expect she is going to change the most.

[GeeGolly]

14 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I always thought that Jinger and Jessa were very emotionally detached from the family. 

Way back, I used to say they were "mean girls".  Only into themselves, a little clique and bitchy.  I never liked Jinger at all and never really knew why she was such the favorite.  I'm glad she is happy and doing well but I still find her extremely annoying. I see her as very fake and sugar sweet to your face.  At least Jessa is full on bitch.  ;) 

Isn't it funny how we all interpret this family with slightly different lenses. I see Jessa as fake-sweet with an edge and also down right bitchy. I see Jinger as someone who almost knows herself and is very deep in her faith and the two often conflict. Unlike Jessa, Jinger doesn't seem to need constant attention to validate her existence or accolades for pitching in and helping out.

Edited July 10, 2017 by GeeGolly

[lascuba]

7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

 

I also think that Jeremy very deftly beat JB at JB's own game, in JB's home court. Heh.

IMO, as @Albanyguy and @Scarlett45 said, Jin and Jer had met (courtesy of Jessa and Ben), and in the course of Duggar-acceptable activities like a missioncation, they'd fallen for each other. Probably without Pompous Ass JB's prior permission, hee hee. (ETA: don't know if the date of that picture above which Jinger sez is when she fell for Jeremy, is before or after they got "permission to court.")

And then, Jeremy just flat outplayed JB.

JB handed Jeremy his Very Special Fifty-Page Questionnaire That You Must Complete Before THINKING of Courting My Daughter, You Sweaty-handed Evil-Minded Slimeball™. And Jeremy not only takes it, he returns a One Hundred Page response to JB.

And in the religion category, Jeremy's not just a fundie, he's a fundie pastor. And Jeremy's dad is a fundie pastor. 

Jeremy has an apartment in Laredo. Jeremy's paying the rent, not JB, and Jeremy's got a job and an income, and a home where he and his bride will live. Cue the impotent rage, as JB barely suppresses his urge to literally pee on the carpet in Jeremy's place.

I'd probably want to punch Jeremy in the throat if I met him and he started preaching at me, but I give him props for handling JB, apparently without breaking a sweat. 

Well played, Jeremy. Well played.

I haven't been following the show that closely....did that really happen with the questionnaire? HAH!

5 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

Besotted is such an excellent word!

If she was that's not on her.  Those girls should never have been put in that position.  Look at Jill.  By all accounts a great buddy but now she can't parent her own children. 

Exactly this. It seems that Jessa and Jinger have innate and appropriate sense of boundaries. They took care of their siblings physical needs and were probably as emotionally available as to them as siblings in that culture are, but that's it. And that's GOOD! 

3 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

Fixed that for you. 

I think Jinger misses her siblings about as much as any 23 year old does. She was close to Jessa and seems to relatively miss her, but as for the rest, especially the younger kids, I have no doubt she loves her sibling in various degrees, but she's moved on like a normal woman of her age. 

Yes, she's being completely normal with this. She's happy and excited in her new life, and that's going to overshadow whatever homesickness she might be feeling. That's the case for a lot if not most people who leave home for the first time. I can imagine her really starting to miss her family when she has her first child, but until then, she's having a good time. 

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

It absolutely wasn't her responsibility.   But the ability to stand by and watch a young child suffer from neglect and not help takes a special kind of person.   I'm glad it doesn't bother you but it bothers me. I wouldn't stand by and let a snake be neglected, and I can't stand snakes.  And I would do it regardless of how lazy and irresponsible the snake owner was.  

Not sure what Jill has to do with anything, but I realize she's the #1 punching bag. It wasn't Jill or Jana's responsibility to raise this litter either, but they did it.  And seemingly picked up all the slack Jessa and Jinger left.  Which means Jessa and maybe Jinger had no problem watching their older sisters bust their asses.  Maybe it was Jessa's influence, but Jinger doesn't get a break IF she neglected her buddies, IMO. 

WE know there's parental neglect all over that house but from Jinger's point of view? Those children are fed and clothed with a solid roof over their heads, financial security, plenty of caregivers around to see to their needs and lots of kids to play with without the responsibility of keeping house and raising younger siblings. And that's a hell of a lot more than any of the older girls got. There is zero wrong with Jinger (or Jessa) for not wanting to be her siblings' mother. 

[floridamom]

Jinger isn't going to miss hanging out with her sisters much and playing with them; Jeremy's got something much more interesting to play with and no one or nothing will be better than that for these suppressed women. No competition, Jeremy wins, hands down. Jinger isn't thinking about the TTH; she's too busy having sex with Baaaaaaabe, admiring Baaabe working out, etc.

[lascuba]

18 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I always thought that Jinger and Jessa were very emotionally detached from the family. 

Way back, I used to say they were "mean girls".  Only into themselves, a little clique and bitchy.  I never liked Jinger at all and never really knew why she was such the favorite.  I'm glad she is happy and doing well but I still find her extremely annoying. I see her as very fake and sugar sweet to your face.  At least Jessa is full on bitch.  ;) 

I didn't think of them as mean girls, precisely, but yeah, those two have clearly always known that their family is often ridiculous and think the show related stuff is dumb (except for the money, of course), including their fans. Jinger was even more contemptuous of people than Jessa was back in the day. Jessa might have been quick with the cutting verbal response, but Jinger's eye rolling and insulting looks got the internet rooting for her to escape. I'll never forget the "You FUCKING moron" look she gave a pregnant Anna still in her Duggar fangirl phase when she said "We haven't picked our letter yet!" 

That's why I kind of liked Jinger until she became so openly meek. 

[MichaelaRae]

It makes me sad to think that because Jinger isn't visibly pining away for the children she was forced by her parents to raise when she was still a child herself, that somehow this makes her a cold, unfeeling person. Jeez. 

[Churchhoney]

43 minutes ago, lascuba said:

 until she became so openly meek.

I love this description. 

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Isn't it funny how we all interpret this family with slightly different lenses. I see Jessa as fake-sweet with an edge and also down right bitchy. I see Jinger as someone who almost knows herself and is very deep in her faith and the two often conflict. Unlike Jessa, Jinger doesn't seem to need constant attention to validate her existence or accolades for pitching in and helping out.

Jessa's been on her very best behaviour since Josh's scandals. The way she suddenly started  smiling all the time reminds me of Hillary Clinton. 

I think Jinger really was fortunate being child #6 and sister mom #4. Anyone younger and lower ranked than Jill could rope in Jill and Jana, (the supervisors) to crack the whip or make any decisions, and Jinger could also maybe consult the dissenting opinions of Jessa. Jana was and is figuratively fucked over by this arrangement. Jackson and Jana are attached to each other in a parent/child way. She won't leave. Not Without Her Son. 

[Minivanessa]

Earlier today, I posted my opinion that in getting JB's permission to court and marry Jinger, Jeremy beat JB at his own game, in JB's home court.

In that post, I said that not only did Jeremy fill out JB's 50-page "permission to court" questionnaire, he turned in 100 pages.

Now I'm wondering if I got that wrong. I know one of the sons-in-law did the 100 page reply, but now I think it might have been Ben, not Jeremy. Apologies if I goofed about that point.

But anyway, with Jinger's recent Instagram post, we now know for sure that Jeremy and Jinger found each other, and fell for each other, well before Jeremy got "permission to court." Which was totes in violation of the Duggars' famous courtship system. (I wasn't sure of that timing earlier today, but you guys posted the dates after I asked.)

So now I have an even higher regard for how well Jeremy (and Jinger) played JB's game, and am even more delighted with how infuriated and frustrated JB must have been. Because Mr. Control Freak JB didn't really present Jeremy to Jinger the way he'd presented Derick to Jill, or thought he'd presented Ben to Jessa (I suspect Jessa had some idea what was up, even if Jilly Moonbeam hadn't). 

Maybe Jeremy will eventually move closer into JB's orbit, but at least for now the Vuolos seem to be happy living in Laredo minus the Duggar Circus.

[BitterApple]

I think there was definitely more pressure on the oldest two girls when it came to running the household. For example, if the younger ones misbehaved or chores didn't get done, it was probably Jana or Jill getting reamed for it rather than Jinger and Jessa. As a result, Jana and Jill had more time and energy invested in their siblings and likely formed a stronger attachment. 

[Christina87]

I kind of thought Jessa and Jinger were cliquish back in the day, and would probably subtly make the others feel bad. For example, I could see them getting a hair straightener, using it on just themselves, and kind of giving Jana and Jill the side-eye when they walked downstairs with their 90's perms. However, I think Jessa was very much the ringleader, and Jinger was the girl who would not challenge her, perfect for second in command. Now, it seems to me like both girls have grown up. Jessa is a good mother, and since the first episode of counting on, I've thought Jinger seemed the most normal, and like the one I would choose to hang out with for a day. Now, I think all the married girls treat Jana deplorably, but Jill is worst on that score, not Jessa and Jinger. 

[andromeda331]

18 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I kind of thought Jessa and Jinger were cliquish back in the day, and would probably subtly make the others feel bad. For example, I could see them getting a hair straightener, using it on just themselves, and kind of giving Jana and Jill the side-eye when they walked downstairs with their 90's perms. However, I think Jessa was very much the ringleader, and Jinger was the girl who would not challenge her, perfect for second in command. Now, it seems to me like both girls have grown up. Jessa is a good mother, and since the first episode of counting on, I've thought Jinger seemed the most normal, and like the one I would choose to hang out with for a day. Now, I think all the married girls treat Jana deplorably, but Jill is worst on that score, not Jessa and Jinger. 

This is what I thought too. Jessa was the ringleader with Jinger either in second command, a follower or someone Jessa targeted her the way Mean Girl clique has her followers, who knows maybe she saw how Jana had to give up her jewelry box and decided it was easier to go along with Jessa. But ever Jinger's speech at the rehearsal Jessa's dinner made me rethink that. I've wondered if there was more to it then that. Jinger never went into details but talking about how much Jessa helped her while practically breaking down. I know we'll probably never know what she was talking about but definitely wanted to give her a hug.

[Spencer Hastings]

Jessa and Jinger are very close in age and kind of nestled in the middle of the pack where it would be very easy to latch on to each other and hold on for dear life.  I imagine they were like any other best friend set in high school where you share a special bond and jokes that are only funny to the other one and anyone else would feel left out.  Like a lot of teenage girl friends, Jessa was probably the alpha and Jinger was the beta.  It'll be interesting to see how close they remain now that they don't have to rely solely on each other for companionship.