S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[lmsweb]

Ned got the sword by killing Arthur Dayne in the earlier scene of the TOJ. In the books, he returns the sword to Ashara Dayne, Arthur's sister. She ends up killing herself (shortly after giving birth to a bastard born baby girl who was stillborn, I believe). In fact, in the books, Cat even brought up her name once to Ned as possibly being Jon's mother and Ned told her to never say her name again.
As to where the sword is now, GRRM has said that the sword still remains at Starfall, the seat of House Dayne. The sword was made from a falling star and can only be used by a knight from House Dayne.

 

Edit to add: Edited because I forgot to put in that Ashara's baby girl was stillborn. This has also led to bookreaders over the years speculating that the Mad King raped her at the tourney of Harrenhal since so many of his children were stillborn. Ned was also in love with her (before he was wed to Cat) as was Barristan Selmy.

Edited June 29, 2016 by lmsweb

[forum4idiots]

5 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Ned got the sword by killing Arthur Dayne in the earlier scene of the TOJ. In the books, he returns the sword to Ashara Dayne, Arthur's sister. She ends up killing herself (shortly after giving birth to a bastard born baby girl, I believe). In fact, in the books, Cat even brought up her name once to Ned as possibly being Jon's mother and Ned told her to never say her name again.
As to where the sword is now, GRRM has said that the sword still remains at Starfall, the seat of House Dayne. The sword was made from a falling star and can only be used by a knight from House Dayne.

how about the son of the prince the house served? 

nah.  i like the poetry of jon having longclaw, from the house mormont, headed by a feisty girl named lyanna.  though, i suppose jon will return it to the feisty lyanna and her house as a tribute and he will need another sword.

Edited June 29, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Ambrosefolly]

8 hours ago, lovebug1975 said:

now you are just being emotional.  you are trying to justify a second tier character to surpass an obvious first tier protagonist.  as far as teh north is concerned, she is still lady bolton, who was married to a lannister who butchered their kin at the red wedding.  no if or when's about it.  ask grandma tyrell on that comment on no say on who she can marry.......oh wait, wasn't that why joffrey died?  and didn't grandma tyrell choose who she married?  didn't caitlyn choose ned over little finger?

yup, the north remembers......how cunning women can be.....which also implied sansa might have married into those 2 families fro her own sake.

Yeah, the "sake" of survival (Tyrion) and revenge(Ramsay, who did put a shiv in Robb's murderer's heart). According to the show, Olenna was supposed to marry a Tang, but seduced her sister's boyfriend (previous oaf of Highgarden). Ask Lysa if girls have choice on who they marry. Cat was lucky because at least she the men she was engaged to were close to her age, but she hardly knew Ned when she married him. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[forum4idiots]

8 minutes ago, anyanka323 said:

Upthread someone posted that Catelyn probably would be spinning in her unmarked grave about Jon being proclaimed King in the North with Sansa's full support.  Even if Ned had been honest with her about Jon being her nephew rather than her husband's bastard, she wouldn't have been able to keep that secret. 

I bet Tywin would be steaming mad about the paths his children took after his death.  Tyrion is a rebel working with the last known Targaryan to help her take the Iron Throne.  Cersei unleashed religious zealots that had been suppressed for centuries, successfully planned and executed a terrorist plot to destroy her enemies, and staged a coup putting herself on the throne.  Jamie is the cleanup boy for wayward Lannister allies but his loyalty seems to be wavering. 

i thought about that.   but prior seasons, didn't she admit to someone that she has guilt over jon and was about to make him a stark but didn't.  but given what jon has done for the family, not sure he would mind that much.  he avenged teh red wedding, after all.

[lmsweb]

6 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

how about the son of the prince the house served? 

nah.  i like the poetry of jon having longclaw, from the house mormont, headed by a feisty girl named lyanna.  though, i suppose jon will return it to the feisty lyanna and her house as a tribute and he will need another sword.

I think Dawn LITERALLY cannot be used by anyone other than a knight from House Dayne who has earned it and become The Sword of the Morning.

[forum4idiots]

13 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

I think Dawn LITERALLY cannot be used by anyone other than a knight from House Dayne who has earned it and become The Sword of the Morning.

interesting history on the sword dawn......for all we know, it could be lightbringer.

at least now, the prophecy is a little less literal and a lot more subtle, lol.  didnt azor ahai literally kill his beloved or something?

"Dawn essentially brings forth light

Dawn = brings light

Dawn = Lightbringer"

Edited June 29, 2016 by lovebug1975
credit to xarsman from another post on the web

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Ambrosefolly said:

If Sansa not fighting in the war is a reason she shouldn't rule, then no woman, including Lyanna Mormont, shouldn't be ruling anything. Historically, it was the reason that women were denied the vote, because they weren't conscripted into fighting wars. The reason the Jon's army almost lost wasn't because Sansa remained tight lipped or even that the army was half the size, it was because Jon, foolishly tried to charge at Ramsay after Rickon was killed and everyone was force to rush ahead to protect Jon. Fact is,  the North isn't a democracy or even the Iron Islands. Robb wasn't voted in, the lords decided to cede from the rule of the Iron Throne and Starks were historically the Kings of the North. Since Bran hasn't made it back home, and Rickon (who would have been declared the Warden of the North despite his age) is dead, Sansa is the only true born child of Ned Stark. Also Sansa blood ties, namely the blood tie to Robin Arryn,  tipped Robin's decision to go along with Littlefinger's plan.  If the Vale were there they might have gotten caught in the pincher move along with the Northern army. Sansa was the one that convinced Jon to reclaim Winterfell and attempt to rescue Rickon. She was there by his side trying to talk the houses into joining their army. She did more than a lot of women who are monarchs every did. If Lyanna Mormont can rule Bear Island if she has advisors on hand at all of ten years old, then Sansa should be able to as well.

I disagree with your POV.  IIRC, Lyanna Mormont's mother fought with Robb Stark and if I'm mistaken that it was the Little Lady's mother, I'm not mistaken in the fact that at least one woman from a noble house did.  I know that Jon let his emotions run away with him during the battle.  Foolish or not, Jon will always fight for those he loves, so I understand why he lost it when Rickon was killed right in front of him.  But none of that excuses Sansa from withholding vital information.  Talking to me about her pure bloodline, changes nothing.  It entitles her to nothing. Sansa was raised to be a noblewoman, not to lead the houses of the North.  Be outraged for people ignoring her all you want, but nothing in Sansa's upbringing prepared her to be anything other than someone's lady or someone's queen.  Her developed skillset is needlepoint, singing and scheming to save her ass primarily. She is no Dany.  She is no Yara.  Hell, she isn't even Lyanna Mormont, so the North choosing her for anything at this point would be ridiculous beyond reason.  

Edited June 29, 2016 by taurusrose

[Unknown poster]

10 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

interesting history on the sword dawn......for all we know, it could be lightbringer.

at least now, the prophecy is a little less literal and a lot more subtle, lol.  didnt azor ahai literally kill his beloved or something?

"Dawn essentially brings forth light

Dawn = brings light

Dawn = Lightbringer"

Hmm. And we happen to have the young Lord (or heir?) to Starfall in the company of a Red Priest. (At least, I think. Maybe Edric went home after Beric died that final time. I don't remember him being a part of the "new" BwoB.

[forum4idiots]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

I disagree with your POV.  IIRC, Lyanna Mormont's mother fought with Robb Stark and if I'm mistaken that it was the Little Lady's mother, I'm not mistaken in the fact that at least one woman from a noble house did.  I know that Jon let his emotions run away with him during the battle.  Foolish or not, Jon will always fight for those he loves, so I understand why he lost it when Rickon was killed right in front of him.  But none of that excuses Sansa from withholding vital information.  Talking to me about her pure bloodline, changes nothing.  It entitles her to nothing.  Sansa was raised to be a noblewoman, not to lead the houses of the North.  Be outraged for people ignoring her all you want, but nothing in Sansa's upbringing prepared her to be anything other than someone's lady or someone's queen.  Her developed skillset is needlepoint, singing and scheming to save her ass primarily.  She is no Dany.  She is no Yara.  Hell, she isn't even Lyanna Mormont, so the North choosing her for anything at this point would be ridiculous beyond reason.  

the thing is...sansa doesn't even want anything, she just wants to be home.  she already saw through little finger's scheme and she would have none of it.  but now she is thinking, little finger will wiggle his way by supporting jon and then using the bastard card once teh iron throne is in play because now, jon has the army to do it.  sansa doesn't want to be ruler of winterfell.

3 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

Hmm. And we happen to have the young Lord (or heir?) to Starfall in the company of a Red Priest. (At least, I think. Maybe Edric went home after Beric died that final time. I don't remember him being a part of the "new" BwoB.

isn't starfall overseen by the martells?  that would explain their role, i guess.  still, such a boring house, lol.  those girls need to fight better cause that fight scene with jamie was just laughable.

[s-k-s]

I am just going to refer to Cersei's inferno  as the "fire of loose plot threads".   This season has been a little clunky and poorly paced, but I think they have done a pretty good job of getting rid of a lot of the chaffe.

I am hopeful, perhaps foolishly so, that some of the issues with this season were simply narrative decisions that were necessary so that the final season could really focus on the core characters, tie everything together and give us a satisfying ending.

[forum4idiots]

Just now, s-k-s said:

I am just going to refer to Cersei's inferno  as the "fire of loose plot threads".   This season has been a little clunky and poorly paced, but I think they have done a pretty good job of getting rid of a lot of the chaffe.

I am hopeful, perhaps foolishly so, that some of the issues with this season were simply narrative decisions that were necessary so that the final season could really focus on the core characters, tie everything together and give us a satisfying ending.

i doubt you will be satisfied with the final season. i am almost sure they will milk 3 movies out of this ...which is basically the equivalent of another season....but sadly, 3 additional years instead of one.

[Unknown poster]

4 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

the thing is...sansa doesn't even want anything, she just wants to be home.  she already saw through little finger's scheme and she would have none of it.  but now she is thinking, little finger will wiggle his way by supporting jon and then using the bastard card once teh iron throne is in play because now, jon has the army to do it.  sansa doesn't want to be ruler of winterfell.

isn't starfall overseen by the martells?  that would explain their role, i guess.  still, such a boring house, lol.  those girls need to fight better cause that fight scene with jamie was just laughable.

Yes, Starfall is in Dorne. I was referring to the books, however. Edric was never introduced in the show, which likely disqualifies him for playing any major role in the books. I just thought that it was interesting, I never thought of Dawn as being a canidate for Lightbringer. I assume that if the sword is real, it will likely be "created" by AzorAzhai,not handed to him.

[Ambrosefolly]

4 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I disagree with your POV.  IIRC, Lyanna Mormont's mother fought with Robb Stark and if I'm mistaken that it was the Little Lady's mother, I'm not mistaken in the fact that at least one woman from a noble house did.  I know that Jon let his emotions run away with him during the battle.  Foolish or not, Jon will always fight for those he loves, so I understand why he lost it when Rickon was killed right in front of him.  But none of that excuses Sansa from withholding vital information.  Talking to me about her pure bloodline, changes nothing.  It entitles her to nothing.  Sansa was raised to be a noblewoman, not to lead the houses of the North.  Be outraged for people ignoring her all you want, but nothing in Sansa's upbringing prepared her to be anything other than someone's lady or someone's queen.  Her developed skillset is needlepoint, singing and scheming to save her ass primarily.  She is no Dany.  She is no Yara.  Hell, she isn't even Lyanna Mormont, so the North choosing her for anything at this point would be ridiculous beyond reason.  

I disagree with yours. Pure bloodlines entitle her to everything, as an argument could be made it entitles Jon to the Iron Throne and it partial drives Dany towards Westros. It was the reason she was passed around like a rare diamond, because her being Ned's true born daughter entitles a claim to the North.   Lyanna didn't fight in that battle, even if her mother did. Jon wasn't really raised to be a Lord like Robb, and lesser extent Bran and Rickon. As much as I am annoyed by Dany, she learned through trial and error, she was raised on even more dependence than even Sansa or Arya. If one thing I believe Sansa is is a fast learner,  I think she would be better in the position than people give credit for. It could all become a moot point if Bran returns to Winterfell, as he is the Trueborn son.

[forum4idiots]

Just now, Unknown poster said:

Yes, Starfall is in Dorne. I was referring to the books, however. Edric was never introduced in the show, which likely disqualifies him for playing any major role in the books. I just thought that it was interesting, I never thought of Dawn as being a canidate for Lightbringer. I assume that if the sword is real, it will likely be "created" by AzorAzhai,not handed to him.

hmmm.  it would seem, if the current alliances hold, that dany might somehow get her hands on dawn.  but since dany is not much of a sword fighter........what are the odds that when the final battle comes, dany gives it to jon.

fuck you hbo for making us wait a few years.

[Raachel2008]

48 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

i thought about that.   but prior seasons, didn't she admit to someone that she has guilt over jon and was about to make him a stark but didn't.  but given what jon has done for the family, not sure he would mind that much.  he avenged teh red wedding, after all.

Catelyn told Talisa that when Jon was a little child he was severely ill (fever? chicken pox?) and that she prayed to the gods for him to die naturally, which would solve her 'problem' - dealing with Ned's bastard son. She was horrified with herself because Jon was just a child and who she really hated was Jon's mother, who would have been Ned's lover. Then she promised that if Jon survived and the godsforgave her for wishing such an awful thing, she would make Ned legitimize Jon as a Stark and treat him and love him like her own. She never kept her promise, treated Jon all his life like crap and  was a royal bitch to him, and told Talisa that Ned's death, Sansa held in King's Landing, Arya missing, the war and all were the the gods punishing her for that.

Catelyn was a horrible, horrible person to Jon, and Ned was a wuss for allowing her to treat him that way.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Raachel2008

[forum4idiots]

wow...here's a very interesting take on the politics of it all...for newbies and devotees alike:

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/26/12029644/winds-of-winter-recap-jon-snow-parents

[WatchrTina]

So we've had the "Red Wedding" and the "Purple Wedding."  In the book, the biggest disaster in history known as "The Doom of Valyria."

What are we going to calL the destruction of the sept?  I guess they can just call it the "Destruction of the Great Sept" in the same way that people speak of the "Destruction of the Temple" in Jerusalem, but given this show's history it seems like we ought to come up with something more pithy.

[AliShibaz]

After all is said and done about this season, I am just heartbroken at the loss of Natalie Dormer. She was just the most beautiful lady and I liked nothing better about this show than watching her.

I was expecting a wonderful plot to unfold whereby she had figured out some way to defeat the HS and find salvation for her brother and put her family into an elevated position. But we never saw what her plan was (assuming she had a plan) and I know the showrunners have the right to kill off however many characters they want. I just want to say that I am absolutely heartbroken to lose Natalie from this show. IMHO, she was just the very best - the most beautiful, possibly the most talented and I just wish they would have found a way to have kept her in the show.

Edited June 29, 2016 by AliShibaz

[patchwork]

I don't have a problem with Jon being declared KITN and I'm pretty sure Sansas doesn't want to be queen but completely ignoring her presence and claim as a true born Stark breaks a lot of in universe rules and it's a massive insult to her. 

If the scene had been written a little differently, if the Northern lords didn't get caught up in a ten year old's enthusiasm and glanced at Sansa who could then stood up and thrown her support behind Jon as king, she could have even started the "King in the North" chant, it would have given the scene so much more power and it makes it obvious to everyone there where she stands. 

Then she looks over to Littlefinger and realises 'oh crap'.

[forum4idiots]

damn it!

I think hbo duped us......upon letting it sink in and re-watching the season finale (on max audio to hear the whisperings.....they deliberately kept quiet the first part of lyanna's whispers...i can't make anything of it)...

hbo fed us a bone on the most popular theory....R+L=Jon Snow............but the season finale technically only confirmed lyanna as the mother.....NOTHING MORE.  of course most of us will say, well, duh, who else could the father be but rhaegar, making jon and dany nephew/aunty........there's confirmation and assumption......they really did not confirm rhaegar as the father.....so who else could it be?

of course the predominant story was lyanna was raped by rhaegar.  makes no sense as they are in love (supposedly, but for now let's go with that).  rhaegar to most is an honorable man.  kidnapping lyanna (a woman he loves) seems out of character.....

but what if.....the story of rape is true...except, it was not by her beloved rhaegar.....but by the mad king.  this would tie in to the theory of the mad king also raping tywin's wife.  would be plausible and consistent with the actions of a mad king, not caring about the actions he takes.  there is also the thing that jamie mentioned before his death....that after all this (the war), that he would make things right...which implies probably killing his mad father.  perhaps not just to take father, but to avenge lyanna's disgrace.  so there is a possibility he took her away from king's landing to save her from his mad father.

was this devised to be this poetic by GRRM?  all 3 protagonists losing their mothers after birth.  tyrion's mother dies during childbirth, same for dany and jon.......all sired by the mad king?  the same man.....which would make all 3 siblings......a 3 headed dragon.  if true, all 3 would have these in common, in more ways than one.  same father, same way they were brought into the world, same blood.

if the southron ambition theory is true, is this the mad king's way  of stopping it and the rebellion of the noble houses?  by siring children from different houses?  to thwart jon arryn's plans to allying the north and other families?  not a good plan, but fitting for a mad man, i suppose, lol.

history is written by the victors...and as we already witnessed and as bran is finding out, even his father embellished the truth when he told the story of fighting sir arthur dayne.

whether hbo purposely left out confirming rhaegar as the father ...a sick joke to keep us guessing .....or whether they did it on purpose because he is not....who knows at this point.

but to be fair, i can only take from that episode that the confirmation is that lyanna is the mother, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited June 29, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Oscirus]

Quote

Why were the children so willing to kill Pycelle?  Are we just supposed to ascribe it to the fact that they are feral, or was there a nasty implication of abuse there?

That's a case of the writers failing to build up the favors that the kids were doing for Qyburn until it got to that point. The kids just went from telling secrets to children of the corn with little to no explanation.

Quote

Jon would be a threat because he lives, just like Gendry was a threat to Cersei and her children because he existed. An heir in any shape or form is always a threat, and that is why Robert wanted all the remaining Targaryen killed and why Cersei did everything in her power to get rid of all Robert's bastards. It doesn't matter if they want the throne or are suited for it. 

Gendry was never a threat, Joffrey was being a sadistic bastard. Jon isn't a threat, Targs aren't getting  enough support to be a threat. Tyrion and Varys had to work really hard to get Dany her support. Imagine how hard it would be to get Jon non northern support.

Quote

I just realized that all three Lannister siblings are kinslayers, now: Jaime killed his cousin, Tyrion killed his father, and Cersei killed her uncle.

Cersei got pissed when she heard about Tyrion being the greatest lannister killer so she decided to try and one up him
 

Quote

 

If it can be shown that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targareyn, he would indeed be the heir to the throne.

 

No it wouldn't because the Targs aren't in power any more. Haven't been since the rebellion. The only way Jon will be the rightful owner of the iron throne is if he takes it back. Until then ....

 

So I read the online explanations of that birth scene and how the sword's presence + the bloody sheets makes for a bloody star. I'm sure that will be the official explanation. However that explanation doesn't make sense since the sword wasn't in the tower until after Jon was born.

[Hecate7]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Upon second viewing I noticed that will Cersei was crowed it was a a Lannister, not a Baratheon.  That was interesting.

I wonder if Sansa is going to be known as Lady Bolton next season?  I imagine that she will go back to being  know as "Lady Sansa" and her married last name will simply be ignored.

The actors who play Thoros of Myr and Ser Beric Dondarian must be delighted by the carnage in King's Landing.  They've killed off so many named characters that that leaves room for minor characters to come to the foreground.

I look forward to the reunion of Arya with her family but i also look forward to her reunion with The Hound. Lotta history there.

I look forward to the reunion of Brienne and Tormund but I would LOVE it if Tormund got a chance to see all the unresolved sexual tension between Brienne and Jamie.

And when the fuck is Gendry going to turn up?

As Ramsey's widow and heir to his lands, Sansa is formally Lady Bolton, although she is also the Stark heir and as such entitled to style herself Lady Stark. Lady Sansa is for daughters and landless ladies. I doubt Sansa will allow anyone to call her Lady Bolton, since she hated Ramsey so much. Therefore anyone who isn't on a first name basis with her should address her as Lady Stark.

[koalathebear]

On 6/27/2016 at 2:47 PM, SeanC said:

Minor note:  Ahem, as I recall, Lady Mormont, when Jon and Sansa came you badmouthed them and then got talked into the war by Davos speechifying about the White Walkers. Your undying loyalty credentials are questionable, to say the least.

I think she was just giving them a hard time.  House Mormont has been loyal to the Starks.  Lyanna's mother fought and died for Robb Stark as did her sister.  Lyanna herself declared her loyalty to the Starks when Stannis wrote to her, replying: "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK".

In deeds as well as has words, Lyanna has been loyal to the Starks - she just wasn't going to roll over and play dead just because they walked into her home and demanded it.

Also, to the people who said even Dorne was ok, you should watch this review: http://ozzyman.com/ozzy-man-reviews-game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-10/

Hilarious.... you probably need help with the Aussie slang and swear words but it discusses how the episode fixed things - even like Dorne ;)

Edited June 29, 2016 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

On 6/28/2016 at 1:24 AM, Gertrude said:

Yeah, Lyanna is fun, but you have to be willing to buy into it without thinking to hard about it. I am willing.

What I wasn't fond of from Lyanna is that she supported Jon over Sansa. It's a small thing, but Lyanna should see that being a woman is no bar to being a strong leader. Yes, I know, there are reasons why people might prefer Jon over Sansa, and I'm not disagreeing, it's just that I thought little Lady Mormont might have a different perspective. (and if I buy that Jon would take Winterfell over Sansa because he's a warrior who can inspire people, then I have to take it on faith that he's OK taking it from Bran as well - I'll let it pass for the show)

I didn't see her as picking Jon over Sansa.  The fact is that it's Jon leading this army - at no point has Sansa come forward and put herself out there as being the leader.  It's Jon taking the heat, it's Jon who was in battle and leading the charge.  Does Sansa even want to lead?  She's the one pushing Jon to lead and take revenge and do things.  If Sansa was touted as the leader, I'm sure Lyanna would have thrown her support behind her as well.

[MarySNJ]

12 hours ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

I just realized that all three Lannister siblings are kinslayers, now: Jaime killed his cousin, Tyrion killed his father, and Cersei killed her uncle.

Cersei also killed her cousin Lancel. 

[stagmania]

18 hours ago, Silje said:

Imagine how fun and exciting it must have been for Sansa to sit there and have people apologizing to Jon for not following him, praising him for taking back Winterfell and the North when Sansa had to convince him to stay and fight, and she was the one who brought the army that won the battle. The northern lords didn't even acknowledge her sitting there or her being the legitimate heir to Winterfell (at least until/if Bran comes home). The Lannisters and Tyrells took her claim more seriously than her own people.  

If the writers wanted Jon to be the King in the North/the leader of the northern army, they should have started the scene with Glover apologizing to Jon and have Jon say that it's Sansa's forgiveness he should ask (seriously, Glover got all up in her personal space about how house Stark was dead) and then have Sansa tell the lords that they should follow Jon for whatever bullshit reason. That would've at least given Sansa some agency in the matter and not have everyone just walk all over her, and the audience theorizing after about how she doesn't want to be the head of house Stark because... Only Jon can use that position to protect her? Then you have the "no one would follow a girl in war times'-excuse when in the same scene you have those people being shamed by a 10 year old girl who led her people to war because she's the head of her noble house.           

I think this is a direct result of the sloppiness of the plotting in episode 9. They don't seem to realize how Sansa and Jon came off last week. To go from a battle in which Jon showed himself to be a terrible leader straight to people feverishly declaring him KitN, and in which Sansa appeared to be scheming for control straight to sitting back placidly as everyone overlooked her for her brother, doesn't make a lick of sense. I can only conclude that the writers didn't intend for them to come across the way they did in episode 9. Essentially, they threw their characterizations under the bus for the sake of a "suspenseful" battle scene and hoped we wouldn't notice. 

4 hours ago, patchwork said:

I don't have a problem with Jon being declared KITN and I'm pretty sure Sansas doesn't want to be queen but completely ignoring her presence and claim as a true born Stark breaks a lot of in universe rules and it's a massive insult to her. 

If the scene had been written a little differently, if the Northern lords didn't get caught up in a ten year old's enthusiasm and glanced at Sansa who could then stood up and thrown her support behind Jon as king, she could have even started the "King in the North" chant, it would have given the scene so much more power and it makes it obvious to everyone there where she stands. 

Then she looks over to Littlefinger and realises 'oh crap'.

Completely agree with this. So much of this plot could've been fixed with just a touch more thoughtful writing.

[DigitalCount]

Upthread the question was asked what to call this event. Since book readers have been looking forward to the outcomes of the Queen Trials for so long, maybe we ought to call this the Green Trials?

[EccentricLily]

How about the Green BBQ?

[Dev F]

Going back to the failures of the Dorne storyline, I realized another problem with the decision to have Ellaria take out Doran: it drained all the drama from the subsequent attempts at alliance.

Basically, the conflict last season in Dorne came down to a woman saying "We need to take revenge on the Lannisters, consequences be damned!" and a man saying "No, we need to be smart and cautious." By making the former the leader of Dorne, it immediately makes the kingdom the default ally of anyone who's got a grievance with the crown. After all, once you've established that you're willing to kill your loved one's family and perpetrate a bloody coup just to spite the Lannisters, what reason do you have to reject any reckless plot that has a similar focus?

So when Olenna and Varys go to Ellaria for help, there's no drama, because of course she's going to help them. The only drama is in the reveal that House Tyrell and House Targaryen ended up in Dorne in the first place -- which means that the storyline relies for its effect on the viewer having forgotten about Dorne or having assumed it wasn't going to be important. "Oh yeah, Dorne still exists!" is not exactly the most compelling season-ending reveal.

Imagine if Prince Doran were still the leader of Dorne instead. Then there's a huge potential for drama, because you have our heroes desperately calling for help from a prince who's been shown to be stubbornly resistant to bucking his existing alliances. And if he were to start the season by killing Ellaria for her treachery last year, you'd have a leader who might even be expected to meet disloyalty with violence. Then you don't have to pretend Dorne doesn't exist for most of the season; you can make it clear that Olenna and Varys are looking to the kingdom for support, and draw your suspense from the fact that Doran might just as soon turn them in to the Lannisters as back their rebellion. Then "Fire and Blood" is a meaningful reveal, not a foregone conclusion.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Dev F

[forum4idiots]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

Going back to the failures of the Dorne storyline, I realized another problem with the decision to have Ellaria take out Doran: it drained all the drama from the subsequent attempts at alliance.

Basically, the conflict last season in Dorne came down to a woman saying "We need to take revenge on the Lannisters, consequences be damned!" and a man saying "No, we need to be smart and cautious." By making the former the leader of Dorne, it immediately makes the kingdom the default ally of anyone who's got a grievance with the crown. After all, once you've established that you're willing to kill your loved one's family and perpetrate a bloody coup just to spite the Lannisters, what reason do you have to reject any reckless plot that has a similar focus?

So when Olenna and Varys go to Ellaria for help, there's no drama, because of course she's going to help them. The only drama is in the reveal that House Tyrell and House Targaryen ended up in Dorne in the first place -- which means that the storyline relies for its effect on the viewer having forgotten about Dorne or having assumed it wasn't going to be important. "Oh yeah, Dorne still exists!" is not exactly the most compelling season-ending reveal.

Imagine if Prince Doran were still the leader of Dorne instead. Then there's a huge potential for drama, because you have our heroes desperately calling for help from a prince who's been shown to be stubbornly resistant to bucking his existing alliances. And if he were to start the season by killing Ellaria for her treachery last year, you'd have a leader who might even be expected to meet disloyalty with violence. Then you don't have to pretend Dorne doesn't exist for most of the season; you can make it clear that Olenna and Varys are looking to the kingdom for support, and draw your suspense from the fact that Doran might just as soon turn them in to the Lannisters as back their rebellion. Then the "Fire and Blood" is a meaningful reveal, not a foregone conclusion.

meh.  i was trying to figure out why the show even bothers with dorne......then it hit me.  the sword dawn, which possibly could be the fabled sword lightbringer, is probably there.

it'll probably end up with dany, and then jon at some point later.  but yeah.  the dorne casts, most of them, are some of the most poorly casted toons in the show.....the vipers, lol...more like the worms.  the supposed bad ass fighters of the book fight like 3 year olds in the show.

[Ocean Chick]

I hope someone can help me out with a large nit I need to pick.  In season 1 we had this "thing" where Ned looked at the Big Book of Ancestry and found out how to determine lineage by hair color, which is how he sussed out Gendry being Robert's bastard (Baratheon's are black of hair).  Now the Targs are known for their silver-blonde hair (see: Dany).  Lyanna and Ned both had lighter brown hair.  Yet Jon, purportedly the son of a Targ and a Stark, has black hair.  How did THAT come about?  Since when does a blond father and a light brunette mother create a black haired offspring?  Or has Jon been dying his hair all his life?

[AGuyToo]

Quote

Going back to the failures of the Dorne storyline, I realized another problem with the decision to have Ellaria take out Doran: it drained all the drama from the subsequent attempts at alliance.

I completely agree. Doran was a much more interesting character than Ellaria (never mind the Sand Snakes). Giving him his book role would have been more dramatic.

The only problem I can see is: what do they do about Myrcella? They need to kill her off somehow, so that all of Cersei's children will be dead.

[HumblePi]

10 minutes ago, AGuyToo said:

I completely agree. Doran was a much more interesting character than Ellaria (never mind the Sand Snakes). Giving him his book role would have been more dramatic.

The only problem I can see is: what do they do about Myrcella? They need to kill her off somehow, so that all of Cersei's children will be dead.

In the last episode of Season 5, Jaime comes to get Myrcella and they set sail together to King's Landing. At the harbor, Myrcella says her farewells to Prince Doran and Ellaria before departing for King's Landing. Ellaria, taking her vengeance, kisses her after coating a fatal poison on her lips, thus sealing the young girl's fate. On board the boat, Myrcella reveals to Jaime that she has always known of his and Cersei's incestuous relationship, and that he is her true father. The two of them share a tender moment, before the effects of the poison become apparent. Jaime holds Myrcella as she falls, blood running from her nose

In the first episode of Season 6, Myrcella's body is returned to King's Landing with Jaime. Cersei waits at the port and immediatelyJaime and Tommen view Myrcella's remains realizes from Jaime's sullen expression that they were too late to save Myrcella from the Martells. Jaime and Cersei are aware that Doran Martell had nothing to do with the murder, correctly guessing Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes were the ones behind it.

[AGuyToo]

Just now, HumblePi said:

In the last episode of Season 5, Jaime comes to get Myrcella and they set sail together to King's Landing. At the harbor, Myrcella says her farewells to Prince Doran and Ellaria before departing for King's Landing. Ellaria, taking her vengeance, kisses her after coating a fatal poison on her lips, thus sealing the young girl's fate. On board the boat, Myrcella reveals to Jaime that she has always known of his and Cersei's incestuous relationship, and that he is her true father. The two of them share a tender moment, before the effects of the poison become apparent. Jaime holds Myrcella as she falls, blood running from her nose

In the first episode of Season 6, Myrcella's body is returned to King's Landing with Jaime. Cersei waits at the port and immediatelyJaime and Tommen view Myrcella's remains realizes from Jaime's sullen expression that they were too late to save Myrcella from the Martells. Jaime and Cersei are aware that Doran Martell had nothing to do with the murder, correctly guessing Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes were the ones behind it.

Right, but if Doran hadn't been killed in the first episode, wouldn't he have executed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for Myrcella's murder? So then, rather than a debate between Doran and Ellaria leading up to "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood", it would just be Doran alone all season.

[TaurusRose]

12 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Jon wasn't really raised to be a Lord like Robb, and lesser extent Bran and Rickon...

Aside from the fact that Ned exposed all of his sons (with the exception of Rickon who was too young) to the duties and responsibilities of the Warden of the North, he also informed them with his sense of honor and duty.  The sons also trained with weapons and presumably learned some battle strategy.  That's part of the foundation I'm talking about.  The other part is actual leadership.  Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which gives him experience in leading and credibility.  Sansa does not possess the traits the men of the North are looking for in a leader.  In the absence of Bran, who has his own difficulties, there is no male candidate with Stark blood to turn to and the way things stand now, Sansa is not an option.   

[Ambrosefolly]

Just now, taurusrose said:

Aside from the fact that Ned exposed all of his sons (with the exception of Rickon who was too young) to the duties and responsibilities of the Warden of the North, he also informed them with his sense of honor and duty.  The sons also trained with weapons and presumably learned some battle strategy.  That's part of the foundation I'm talking about.  The other part is actual leadership.  Jon was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which gives him experience in leading and credibility.  Sansa does not possess the traits the men of the North are looking for in a leader.  In the absence of Bran, who has his own difficulties, there is no male candidate with Stark blood to turn to and the way things stand now, Sansa is not an option.   

Ned and Cat seemed to infuse all of his children with honor and duty. It seemed that Sansa was starting to tap into the forcefulness that is required to be a leader when she first started presenting the idea that they should take back the Stark ancestral home. And considering the law of the land and thinking that an average lord wouldn't believe in resurrection magic, wouldn't they be a little disturbed that Jon abandoned his post, considering it should be death sentence to do so. . As for battle strategy and self defense training, if Sansa inherited any of the physical talents that it seemed that all Starks possess, she probably could pick it up with enough training in a short amount of time and she comes across as a fast learner. 

If Dany, who was raised with even less, can conquer cities, Sansa should be able to rule the North.

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking of the sept explosion as The Big Green Boom.

As for who should be the leader and whether Jon being proclaimed King in the North was earned, I think he's about the only person truly suited to leading this particular fight at this particular time, and that proclamation followed his mention of what the true fight is that's coming. If you think of a Venn diagram, Jon's at the center. The acclaim of the Northern lords may have been the least earned, based as it was on the success of a battle he didn't really win, a blood connection that we now know isn't what they think it is, and a guilt trip by a little girl, but there's not really anyone else who's really up to leading the Northern lords. In peacetime, if they were just gearing up for a long winter, Sansa would be awesome at it, but her sending a letter to a man she knows is crushing on her doesn't qualify her to lead the armies of the North against the White Walkers. None of the other Northern lords qualify, since they failed in the call to action, other than Lady Mormont, and as awesome as she is, I don't think anyone would put her in charge right now. So in that circle of the Venn diagram, we have Jon and maybe Sansa. Then there's leading the Wildlings, who are going to be an integral part of the fight against the White Walkers. Jon has lived among them and knows how they work, and they're loyal to him because he's put himself on the line for them. I don't think they'd follow any of the other Northerners, including Sansa. They fought in the battle for Winterfell solely because of Jon. In that circle, there's Jon, Tormund, and maybe some of the other Wildling leaders. Then there's the Night's Watch -- they're going to have to work together on this, as this fight will likely involve the cooperation of the Watch as the Northern and Wildling armies have to man the Wall and the castles on the Wall. Now that the murderers are executed and Jon's friend Edd is in charge, Jon's probably the one most likely to be able to work with the Watch and maybe even lead a combined army that includes the Watch, with the Watch under his command (not as Lord Commander, but as King in the North). I can't think that Sansa or any other potential candidate could fit into that circle of the diagram. There aren't a lot of candidates for leader who've actually fought against White Walkers, but Jon fits in there, and he's killed one. Jon is the intersection of all the circles in the diagram, and then there are intangibles, like the fact that his legend is likely to grow, with stuff like dying and being raised from the dead and him facing down and killing a White Walker.

It would be silly and petty for Sansa to get into a snit about not being chosen to be Queen to lead them in what they're really up against. Since the title of King in the North has been long defunct, it's not really about blood lines anymore. It's about who they want to lead them in the current crisis.

[jjjmoss]

11 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

After all is said and done about this season, I am just heartbroken at the loss of Natalie Dormer. She was just the most beautiful lady and I liked nothing better about this show than watching her.

I was expecting a wonderful plot to unfold whereby she had figured out some way to defeat the HS and find salvation for her brother and put her family into an elevated position. But we never saw what her plan was (assuming she had a plan) and I know the showrunners have the right to kill off however many characters they want. I just want to say that I am absolutely heartbroken to lose Natalie from this show. IMHO, she was just the very best - the most beautiful, possibly the most talented and I just wish they would have found a way to have kept her in the show.

Well, according to an interview she wanted Margaery to die last season so she could book more movie jobs. So she's certainly not heartbroken.

[domina89]

2 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

I hope someone can help me out with a large nit I need to pick.  In season 1 we had this "thing" where Ned looked at the Big Book of Ancestry and found out how to determine lineage by hair color, which is how he sussed out Gendry being Robert's bastard (Baratheon's are black of hair).  Now the Targs are known for their silver-blonde hair (see: Dany).  Lyanna and Ned both had lighter brown hair.  Yet Jon, purportedly the son of a Targ and a Stark, has black hair.  How did THAT come about?  Since when does a blond father and a light brunette mother create a black haired offspring?  Or has Jon been dying his hair all his life?

I don't think you can apply logic or science to the genetics of the actors they have cast.  In the books, Jon and Arya have brown hair and grey eyes (Arya is said to look like her aunt Lyanna, so obviously Jon took on his mother's features as well); Not all Targs have the silver blonde hair and purple eyes (Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys Targaryen had brown hair, too).  Show!Tyrion looks nothing like Book!Tyrion (mismatched eyes, different color blonde hair), etc.

Regardless, it is a very good thing that Jon resembles the Stark line instead of the Targ line- otherwise he would have been targeted and killed by Robert Baratheon. I do like that Jon's direwolf is white, though... a subtle hint at his Targ lineage.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

I hope someone can help me out with a large nit I need to pick.  In season 1 we had this "thing" where Ned looked at the Big Book of Ancestry and found out how to determine lineage by hair color, which is how he sussed out Gendry being Robert's bastard (Baratheon's are black of hair).  Now the Targs are known for their silver-blonde hair (see: Dany).  Lyanna and Ned both had lighter brown hair.  Yet Jon, purportedly the son of a Targ and a Stark, has black hair.  How did THAT come about?  Since when does a blond father and a light brunette mother create a black haired offspring?  Or has Jon been dying his hair all his life?

There is a long ranting about genetics ready to be made by someone who can explain science, Bb, BB and all that better than me, but in the books it is a main point that Jon looks more like a Stark than some of his siblings, and that was one of the reasons nobody ever doubted he was Ned's son. Also noted that Ned and Lyanna both had dark hair and that Sansa, Bran and Rickon were all Tully in their coloring. I'm pretty sure there was a mention of Sansa asking Catelyn if Arya was a bastard too since she looked like Jon, but I don't remember if was something Arya herself thought - details are a little fuzzy, I can't even remember if it was on the show too. Anyway, it was established that Jon and Arya looked alike, that Jon looked like Ned/Starks and that Ned and Lyanna had the same coloring. In the show I think their main concern was finding the right people to play the characters, thus having dark haired Isaas Hempstead Wright playing auburn haired book Bran.

As for the Targaryen, they are not all white/silver haired people. Rhaegar's children with Elia from Dorne were dark haired.

"The seed is strong, Robert has dark hair, Baratheon are dark haired people, Robert will never have children who are not dark haired" has been an endless debate in fandom for a long time, because as unlikely as it is, it is not impossible that the Lannister 'seed' was strong too,  thus producing three blond kids. In the books it is stressed that all Robert's 16 bastards have dark hair, even the ones with blonde mothers. There is a few holes in the whole plot, Tyrion, who has always known the truth about his nephews, says that all Cersei needed was one children with Robert. In the books she aborts said child, in the series that dark haired child died right after of birth, or was sitllborn. So, in the books it makes a bit more sense, sicne she never 'produced' a dark haired child, but in the series she has and that was known, thus it wouldn't be absurd to think that Baraethon's blood prevailed with the first child, and Lannister's with the others. 

It is all messy and questionable, but I guess GRRM's motto is 'if you guys believe in dragons and people walking through fire and white walkers, you better believe that my genetics lessons are perfect'.

Also, let's not forget that the show missed it big time when they cast Shireen Baraethon with light brown hair.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Raachel2008

[AGuyToo]

I agree with those who think the Northern lords were correct in choosing Jon to take the lead in the fight against the Night King. In terms of leadership and relevant experience, there really is no contest between Jon and Sansa.

Jon was elected Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. He led the raid against Craster’s Keep that avenged Jeor Mormont (Lyanna’s uncle). After Alliser Thorne became incapacitated, he led the defense of Castle Black against Mance Rayder’s giant army (which included some actual giants). He converted the Wildlings to allies by battling the Army of the Undead and killing a White Walker. He earned the personal loyalty of a talented group of men (Davos, Tormund, Sam, Edd). And – last but not least – he rose from the dead, making him almost a mythical figure.

Sansa’s experience was much more limited and better prepared her for navigating court intrigue at King’s Landing than repelling an invasion by ice monsters. I don’t mean to criticize her at all, but there’s really only so much to be learned from watching Littlefinger.

Now, I’m not sure how much the Northern lords know about Jon’s back story, but they certainly know this: he’s a warrior of the first rank who has courageously led men into battle and who has intimate knowledge of the threat from beyond the Wall. Given the challenges ahead, it makes a lot more sense to follow Jon Snow than Sansa Stark, despite her superior legal claim (trueborn vs bastard).

Edited June 29, 2016 by AGuyToo
grammar/spelling

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

I hope someone can help me out with a large nit I need to pick.  In season 1 we had this "thing" where Ned looked at the Big Book of Ancestry and found out how to determine lineage by hair color, which is how he sussed out Gendry being Robert's bastard (Baratheon's are black of hair).  Now the Targs are known for their silver-blonde hair (see: Dany).  Lyanna and Ned both had lighter brown hair.  Yet Jon, purportedly the son of a Targ and a Stark, has black hair.  How did THAT come about?  Since when does a blond father and a light brunette mother create a black haired offspring?  Or has Jon been dying his hair all his life?

Well, Martin has established in the past books that a Targ can produce a dark-haired child. The Baratheon (dark-haired) line descends from the Targaryens. For a quick brush up on it, look up Rhaelle Baratheon née Targaryen.

But, I also think the show/books will continue to trust in the "Ned" test and use pseudoscience to explain this. (I am not complaining ...just saying.)

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

Right, but if Doran hadn't been killed in the first episode, wouldn't he have executed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for Myrcella's murder? So then, rather than a debate between Doran and Ellaria leading up to "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood", it would just be Doran alone all season.

Season 7 could have opened with Doran throwing Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in prison to await execution for killing Myrcella.  He writes to KL telling them that the conspirators have been executed.  The viewers sigh in relief that we won't have to see them ever again.

Episode 10, Tristane, who is still alive and in KL, gets killed at the Septocalypse.  Olenna arrives in Sunspear and has a similar conversation but with Doran (and less snark).

Olenna:  They killed my son, my grandson, and my granddaughter.  They stole my future."

Doran:  " I as well.  They killed my sister, and her children.  They killed my only son.  I know what you want. You want what I want, what I have been working towards for a long time:  Justice.  Vengeance". 

Camera pans to reveal Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, alive and well, and Varys, who finishes the sentence "Fire and Blood". 

 

You get the benefit of 8-9 episodes with the audience not dreading that Dorne will pop up again, and you get a good surprise:  Doran isn't a moron Lannister lickspittle toady, but in fact on the side of the "good" guys.

The downside is you don't get the "yay! girlllpower!" theme they seem to have been running with this season.

[VCRTracking]

No wonder Cersei's outfit looked so good. They brought back the show's original costume designer Michele Clapton  to make it!

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-cersei-dress

 

Quote

 

To mark the character’s triumphant milestone, the show’s Emmy-winning costume designer Michele Clapton returned to the series to create the episode’s badass costume centerpiece—a coronation gown made from lightweight Italian-cut leather (from D’Alessio Galliano) and silver and black textured brocade (from London’s Altfield).

The feat was all the more impressive considering that Clapton had been working on a different series in Africa when she was called in to design four costumes for the season’s final two episodes, including the coronation gown.

“When they requested me, I couldn’t say no,” Clapton told us via e-mail on Tuesday. “There was to be a very short turnaround on this [dress]—four to five weeks—and I had to try to pull my team together to make it happen. Luckily, when I received the script I was immediately sure how this dress should look and Cersei’s direction. As soon I shared my sketches with [executive producers] David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss], they loved it, as did Lena. We were all of the same mindset.”

 

[domina89]

All this talk of secret Targs and genetics brings a thought to mind regarding Tyrion and the dragons.  I'm sure someone has pointed this out previously (I'm new to this board) but Book!Tyrion's coloring matches Dany's three dragons perfectly.  

This is from a Jon chapter in "A Game of Thrones":

Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brook and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank of hair so blonde it seemed white.

Drogon: Black 
Viserion: White
Rhaegal: Green 

Coincidence?

[ElleMo]

15 hours ago, lovebug1975 said:

how about the son of the prince the house served? 

nah.  i like the poetry of jon having longclaw, from the house mormont, headed by a feisty girl named lyanna.  though, i suppose jon will return it to the feisty lyanna and her house as a tribute and he will need another sword.

Valeryian (sp?) steel is difficult to come  by so I do not think that Jon will part with the sword.  Maybe in the last episode when the White walkers are killed, but not until then.

[proserpina65]

Well if THAT doesn't make Jaime fundamentally question his devotion to Cersei, nothing will.

[InsertWordHere]

7 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Upthread the question was asked what to call this event. Since book readers have been looking forward to the outcomes of the Queen Trials for so long, maybe we ought to call this the Green Trials?

The Trial by Fire.

[bookrat]

Well just because Margaery and Loras died in the wildfire blast on the tv show doesn't mean that they'll die this way in the book, right? I mean, maybe they might even survive the series. Doubtful, but maybe.  Shireen is still alive at least until the new book comes out and kills her.

[slf]

47 minutes ago, bookrat said:

Well just because Margaery and Loras died in the wildfire blast on the tv show doesn't mean that they'll die this way in the book, right? I mean, maybe they might even survive the series. Doubtful, but maybe.  Shireen is still alive at least until the new book comes out and kills her.

True. The show has killed people in a different way than they die in the books, and at different times too. Loras, IIRC, was feathered and had boiling oil dumped on him on Dragonstone, so he's not even in KL right now. It's unlikely he dies in KL of wildfire.