S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[halkatla]

I don´t like seeing violence on tv so I usually look away when they´re slicing necks or punching a lot, but when Jon was beating up Ramsey I watched every second, loved it and felt like I would like to be doing it myself.

But Rickin dying was one of the hardest deaths for me, much worse than Hodor and so many others through the seasons. Everyone probably knew he would die but I always have hope, right until the last second I had such hope :( Poor little thing.

Sansa is so stunning and regal, I think the reason she didn´t tell Jon about the other army was because she didn´t trust littlefinger fully, or was afraid of how Jon might react. Those idiots of the north all deserve to go down for not deserting Bolton when they had the chance.

Dany with the dragons was too awesome for words, it was probably one of my top 3 scene´s from the whole show. And now she´s got the iron born´s in her service, it was all pretty good.

[RCharter]

5 minutes ago, MissLulu said:

 I guess you did not watch the preview for next weeks episode at the end of the show? 

  Hide contents

It is a short clip but he implies his intentions were always clear while she seems clueless to what he is implying. She clearly did not promise anything before the battle but he clearly believes she owes him... 

I didn't, but I don't think it much changes the situation.  He has an army to back him up.  She maybe has whoever is left from Lady Bear's house and Winterfell. The Sansa cutesy/clueless act would be a mis-step for her, and it doesn't particularly mean that she didn't promise him anything, it just means that she is trying to backtrack.  However, I would suppose it mean she didn't sign anything.  She better hope it doesn't mean that LF makes a play for Winterfell on behalf of Robin (who he can pretty much convince of anything).

I hope to not see Sansa deploy the "wait, you wanted what?" routine, because I think that would be a step back for her character.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by RCharter

[iMonrey]

Now that Rickon is dead, there are no more Starks left to carry on the family name, unless Bran is able to father children - something the show hasn't addressed yet. Or maybe Uncle Benjen can still father children? I suppose Jon Snow could get "legitimized" but considering that he's (probably) not really Ned's son he shouldn't technically be legitimized as a Stark. 

Part of the problem with establishing magic on any show is that you wonder why it isn't used a second time when it came in so handy the first. Why couldn't Mellisandre just give birth to another smoke monster baby and sic it on Ramsey? Why can't she bring Rickon back to life? Maybe she still will.

I'm not one for big, chaotic battleground scenes - I have a hard time telling what's going on during most of it. I couldn't figure out what was happening to Jon there towards the end - I assumed he was being buried by all the dead bodies falling on top of him?

In the end, I realized there was no real way for a "satisfying" end to Ramsey. I mean, it was pretty good, but at this point I kind of needed to see Theon come back and cut his dick off, then have him flayed, then tortured some more, then eaten away slowly and still would be left wanting more.

Wow those Iron ships are fast - they sailed all around the continent of Westeros and all the way to Mereen in what - 2 days?

[Popples]

4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not one for big, chaotic battleground scenes - I have a hard time telling what's going on during most of it. I couldn't figure out what was happening to Jon there towards the end - I assumed he was being buried by all the dead bodies falling on top of him?

And by his own army retreating and climbing over top of him. I held my breath so long watching that I nearly suffocated with him.

[Tyro49]

Is Sansa still technically married to Tyrion?

I hope she remembers to have the dogs fed regularly (and gets a good dog whisperer for them).

[RedHawk]

I hope Sansa simply refuses to fulfill any promise she made to Littlefinger. What does she owe him? Technically the leader of House Arryn is her cousin Robin, who chose to come to her aid when called upon. I really want to see Sansa coldly deliver a few choice words and then leave Petyr Baelish standing with his mouth agape.

[annsterg]

There have been too many mentions of the Mad King's wildfire caches under Kings Landing to NOT have that matter....this week with Tyrion.

Could that be what the dialogue between Qyburn and Cersei last week (the whole mysterious "there's more than we thought" discussion) was about? there is MORE of that cache left than they thought? or that the pyromancers had more than they thought?

[HumblePi]

7 minutes ago, Popples said:

And by his own army retreating and climbing over top of him. I held my breath so long watching that I nearly suffocated with him.

That's one of the scenes that I've searched for online because it was very uncomfortable to watch. The feeling of suffocation must be one of the worst feelings when dying. But it did make a great point, that Jon Snow wants to survive and live more than anything.  But, I did find this snapshot of the mastiff and Ramsey. Gotta love it.

[TaurusRose]

To the people calling Jon an idiot:  Enough.  Jon is one of the most human characters in all of Westeros.  It would have been completely out of character for him NOT to try to save Rickon.  Who wouldn't have done exactly the same thing in his shoes?  What would the complaint be if he had sat there and simply watched Rickon run for his life, doing nothing?  Sansa is hardly the hero or saint of this story.  Had she spoken up about her inside Ramsay knowledge before the night of the battle (and maybe offered up some ideas of how to beat him at his own game) or confided in Jon about the Vale's army, maybe things would have gone differently...at least the part where so many Team Stark fighters died needlessly.  Sansa didn't say "Ramsay will drag Rickon out on the battlefield to bait you."  She said he likes to hurt people.  I don't know, but that's pretty damn abstract.  For all she knew Ramsay could have thrown Rickon's head out on the field like he did Shaggy Dog's.  The point is, she didn't add anything to the conversation and she COULD have.  Why didn't she?  I don't know what Sansa's problems are and truthfully, I don't give a flying fuck.  I couldn't get past the smug, self-satisfied look on her face when the Vale army showed up all the while sitting safely on the sidelines next to Littlefinger.  Did she even care about the people who were fighting and dying for Winterfell? Did she even care about Jon, or has she been play acting with him all along? Nope, I can't stand Sansa Stark.  If Jon's an idiot, she's far, far worse.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by taurusrose

[Hansey]

6 hours ago, dangwoodchucks said:

Ok, when Jon was on top of Ramsay punching him in the face repeatedly, all I could think of was Ralphie punching Scut Farkus and muttering obscenities in "A Christmas Story".

Someone really needs to make an animated gif with the Jon/Ramsay and Ralphie/Farkus beatdowns side by side. Now that you've said this, I can't unsee it in my head. :D

Also, unrelated the actual episode itself, could all of you who like to talk about next week's episode previews *PLEASE* put it in spoiler tags? This is one of the only GoT forums I read because I know it's really for avoiding book spoilers, and I like to go into every episode completely blind... I know that previews tend to be misleading, but I just don't ever want to have any kind of advance knowledge whatsoever about an episode until I see it myself.

Regarding the episode (though only in a cursory manner)... I'm not ashamed to say that I absolutely love Littlefinger as a character. Oh yes, he's absolutely a (as someone else put it in a previous thread) lying liar who lies, and can't be trusted ever.  But I just love his clever, calculating mind.  You just can't tell what Baelish's end game *really* is, and I think that's awesome.  He probably deserves to die, but I would miss him on my screen. :(

Finally, I think this episode broke the record for "most smirks in a single episode".  There was absolutely no shortage of smirking going on throughout Westeros and Essos.  Well, there wasn't any smirking from Jon, but I don't think he knows how to smirk. But that's okay, because Littlefinger picked up his slack in the six seconds he was onscreen.

[Advance35]

I  just picture Jon going up against some of the top tier schemers of Westeros and I cringe.   I wasn't interested in the North until Season 5 but I hoped and anticipated Jon taking on Robb's mantle but in his own way, he's just as clueless as Robb was, and as Ramsay proved, Just as easy to play.   I don't think he stands a chance against Littlefinger.    Like Sansa he's been through horrible things but I don't think he's taken it all to heart or maybe resurrection cleans the emotional palate.   He did seem shocked that Sansa pegged Rickon for dead and that he should be taken out of consideration, she was right and Jon was wrong.  He went off plan and forced his army to attack, which is something he knew they couldn't afford.   He got resurrected so I have know doubt that he's special to GRRM but one has to be forgiven for thinking the only thing worthwhile about Jon's head is the gorgeous hair on top of it.   Maybe they will do a minor time jump and he'll settle into command.  But as of now, I think he would be, on the Olenna scale, just above Mace and Loras in terms of being useful.

In Sansa's shoes I could totally see her thinking that with The Iron Throne still after her and the North in clear dire straights, she decides to renew her friendship with Littlefinger.   I agree with the poster that said Sansa has no interest in being good or bad, she just wants to survive.

[Mya Stone]

Alright, guys. I get that emotions are high. I know each character has their supporters and detractors. But let's NOT get personal about it. Y'all can have all the feelings and post your opinions on it, but please don't cross the line from expressing your opinion to repressing others' opinions. 

[MissLucas]

I have notes. To the Masters - it's one thing to ignore the elephant in the room. But to ignore a freaking dragon, that makes you too dumb to live. They knew Daenerys had fled on Drogon, how did they think she had returned? Using Littlefinger's teleportation device? And as great as the dragon riding scenes were, I always get flashbacks to 'The Neverending Story'... which is unfortunate.

I loved Tyrion telling Daenerys the truth about her father's death. Doing that while she was in her 'let's burn them all'-mode required guts. Daenerys, Yara, Theon and Tyrion bonding over their awful fathers was great. But like many other people I wondered about the whole 'drop your Viking-tropes lifestyle' order. The Ironborn won't like it. But I also wondered if the Dothraki got a similar memo about dropping their Mongolian-horde way of life.

I suppose Jon's talk to Melisandre and Ser Davros finding the toy stag set the stage for next episode's reveal that Shireen was in fact ransom paid in advance to the Lord of Light in order to save Jon. I don't think Jon's about to embrace the Lord of Light soon.

I recognized the first part of the battle using Agincourt as blueprint but was not familiar with the second part - according to the after show bit it was Cannae. Kuddos for giving all the military history geeks something to chew on. Loved hearing the horns before seeing the Vale army - nice shout-out to 'Rohan had come at last', a line I still can't read after decades without chills. Steal from the best indeed.

Hopefully the next episode will help clear up why Sansa kept the Vale army a secret. I think plenty of good explanations were offered here but the discussion shows that this is something that the show should clarify. There were lots of endorphins rushing through this episode and so a couple things were not as clear as they should have been. Case in point: Jon letting go of Ramsay when he saw Sansa. I thought he stopped because he did not want his sister to see him so out of control. And therefore I was not sure if Sansa had gone rogue when she had the hounds sicced on Ramsay. It was only after seeing the after show bit and some interviews that the scene became clear. He stopped because he realized Ramsay was hers to take and so she acted with his consent in the last scene.

And finally: Good luck to Iwan Rheon, may you get plenty of offers to play sweet guys to get Ramsay out of your system for good!

Edited June 20, 2016 by MissLucas

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, RCharter said:

I didn't, but I don't think it much changes the situation.  He has an army to back him up.  She maybe has whoever is left from Lady Bear's house and Winterfell. The Sansa cutesy/clueless act would be a mis-step for her, and it doesn't particularly mean that she didn't promise him anything, it just means that she is trying to backtrack.  However, I would suppose it mean she didn't sign anything.  She better hope it doesn't mean that LF makes a play for Winterfell on behalf of Robin (who he can pretty much convince of anything).

I hope to not see Sansa deploy the "wait, you wanted what?" routine, because I think that would be a step back for her character.  

It was pretty clear what LF wanted based on his conversation with Cersei 2(?) seasons ago.  He wanted to be lord of Winterfell by pitting the Boltons against whoever (Stannis at that time) and used Knights of the Vale to defeat the winner.  That plan was still in tact more or less, the whoever was replaced by Jon's wildlings army.  

 

I also hope someone burn the stack and stack of bodies on that field, because you know, winter is cummin'

[RCharter]

5 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

It was pretty clear what LF wanted based on his conversation with Cersei 2(?) seasons ago.  He wanted to be lord of Winterfell by pitting the Boltons against whoever (Stannis at that time) and used Knights of the Vale to defeat the winner.  That plan was still in tact more or less, the whoever was replaced by Jon's wildlings army.  

 

I also hope someone burn the stack and stack of bodies on that field, because you know, winter is cummin'

awww shit, yeah, get rid of those bodies asap!

[MissLulu]

I get the passion of the posters have here, all of this just nods to how good a show it is, that people are so invested in these characters. I will also add that I came here because I could not stand all the nastiness on the IMDB board. Too many critics and haters and probably mostly people who rarely leave their basement and have never even attempted anything more creative than a coloring book. Yet they know how it could be done, written, acted or CGI-ed better.

Edited June 20, 2016 by MissLulu

[LittleIggy]

1 hour ago, annsterg said:

There have been too many mentions of the Mad King's wildfire caches under Kings Landing to NOT have that matter....this week with Tyrion.

Could that be what the dialogue between Qyburn and Cersei last week (the whole mysterious "there's more than we thought" discussion) was about? there is MORE of that cache left than they thought? or that the pyromancers had more than they thought?

That's what I have been thinking since last night. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Is Sansa still technically married to Tyrion?

That's a good question even if it never comes up on the show. The Boltons and Littlefinger considered the marriage invalid because it had never been consummated. We don't really know how marriages work in Westeros - are there divorces? Divorce courts? Judges who decide these sorts of things? Because in legal terms Tyrion would have to testify and confirm the marriage was never consummated - or else Sansa would win by default if he failed to show up for the hearing I guess. But as far as we know there's no such technical mechanism for formally declaring a marriage null and void.

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, dramachick said:

If Jon had sat on his horse and watched Rickon be killed in front of him without trying to save him, it would have been out of character and harder for the audience to root for him. 

why this is there: This is the Stark's version of a Kobayashi Maru.

A no win situation for Sansa or Jon.

[dramachick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

why this is there: This is the Stark's version of a Kobayashi Maru.

A no win situation for Sansa or Jon.

What's a Kobayashi Maru?

[Ambrosefolly]

35 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I  just picture Jon going up against some of the top tier schemers of Westeros and I cringe.   I wasn't interested in the North until Season 5 but I hoped and anticipated Jon taking on Robb's mantle but in his own way, he's just as clueless as Robb was, and as Ramsay proved, Just as easy to play.   I don't think he stands a chance against Littlefinger.    Like Sansa he's been through horrible things but I don't think he's taken it all to heart or maybe resurrection cleans the emotional palate.   He did seem shocked that Sansa pegged Rickon for dead and that he should be taken out of consideration, she was right and Jon was wrong.  He went off plan and forced his army to attack, which is something he knew they couldn't afford.   He got resurrected so I have know doubt that he's special to GRRM but one has to be forgiven for thinking the only thing worthwhile about Jon's head is the gorgeous hair on top of it.   Maybe they will do a minor time jump and he'll settle into command.  But as of now, I think he would be, on the Olenna scale, just above Mace and Loras in terms of being useful.

In Sansa's shoes I could totally see her thinking that with The Iron Throne still after her and the North in clear dire straights, she decides to renew her friendship with Littlefinger.   I agree with the poster that said Sansa has no interest in being good or bad, she just wants to survive.

I know that Ann Coulter is not popular, but she in an interview one of her complaints about women in the military (and I think this was a legitimate complaint) was that male soldiers were being trained to not to respond to a woman (who would probably be a fellow soldier) getting torture, as the natural response would be to rescue people that are generally weaker and more vulnerable, which is the base instinct that took over, coupled with the fact he loves Rickon. If there was a shred of a chance (and there was a shred), Jon was going to take it.   Sansa wasn't there, she was too busy meeting up with Littlefinger  to get the knights of the Vale (this is not a slam, but a fact). If she was there, I don't think her pragmatism in the war meeting would overcome even her desire to try to save her baby brother if she too saw Rickon trying to run towards safety.

[LittleIggy]

51 minutes ago, Hansey said:

 

Regarding the episode (though only in a cursory manner)... I'm not ashamed to say that I absolutely love Littlefinger as a character. Oh yes, he's absolutely a (as someone else put it in a previous thread) lying liar who lies, and can't be trusted ever.  But I just love his clever, calculating mind.  You just can't tell what Baelish's end game *really* is, and I think that's awesome.  He probably deserves to die, but I would miss him on my screen. :(

 

ITA! I love Littlefinger and his deviousness, too. It doesn't hurt that I've had a crush on Aiden G. since "The Wire."

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

He basically fell into the exact same trap he was planning for Ramsey and the only thing that saved his ass was Sansa's deal with Littlefinger. If the Vale didn't show up, John Snow, Davros, The Wildlings would all have been killed and Winterfell would have been lost.

And so would Sansa Stark.  As for Jon being dead w/o the Vale showing up, maybe.  Maybe not.  Jon should have been dead way before that point, but he wasn't.  Why was that?

Edited June 20, 2016 by taurusrose

[GrailKing]

Just now, dramachick said:

What's a Kobayashi Maru?

From Star trek, a no win situation, all commanders go through.

[Calamity Jane]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I hope Sansa simply refuses to fulfill any promise she made to Littlefinger. What does she owe him? Technically the leader of House Arryn is her cousin Robin, who chose to come to her aid when called upon. I really want to see Sansa coldly deliver a few choice words and then leave Petyr Baelish standing with his mouth agape.

Me, too, but Littlefinger is probably the most dangerous person in Westeros, maybe on the whole show, with his infinite capacity for betrayal.  I wouldn't want him as my enemy while he has that big army.  Someday I would like to see him get a Ramsay-style ending, for sure, but I don't think that time has come yet.  Maybe Olenna can help bring him down.  

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

That's what I have been thinking since last night. 

I heard it as Cersei asking, "Is it rumor, or more?"  And Qyburn said, "More," which I took to mean it's not just a rumor.  ??

Edited June 20, 2016 by Calamity Jane

[Dobian]

56 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

To the people calling Jon an idiot:  Enough.  Jon is one of the most human characters in all of Westeros.  It would have been completely out of character for him NOT to try to save Rickon.  Who wouldn't have done exactly the same thing in his shoes?  What would the complaint be if he had sat there and simply watched Rickon run for his life, doing nothing?  Sansa is hardly the hero or saint of this story.  Had she spoken up about her inside Ramsay knowledge before the night of the battle (and maybe offered up some ideas of how to beat him at his own game) or confided in Jon about the Vale's army, maybe things would have gone differently...at least the part where so many Team Stark fighters died needlessly.  Sansa didn't say "Ramsay will drag Rickon out on the battlefield to bait you."  She said he likes to hurt people.  I don't know, but that's pretty damn abstract.  For all she knew Ramsay could have thrown Rickon's head out on the field like he did Shaggy Dog's.  The point is, she didn't add anything to conversation and she COULD have.  Why didn't she?  I don't know what Sansa's problems are and truthfully, I don't give a flying fuck.  I couldn't get past the smug, self-satisfied look on her face when the Vale army showed up all the while sitting safely on the sidelines next to Littlefinger.  Did she even care about the people who were fighting and dying for Winterfell? Did she even care about Jon, or has she been play acting with him all along?  Nope, I can't stand Sansa Stark.  If Jon's an idiot, she's far, far worse.  

I was a Sansa hater from the very beginning.  To me she was this smug little entitled princess, and not doing or saying anything when her father was beheaded made me sick.  But she redeemed herself in my eyes by taking back Winterfell.  She owed that to her family and she came through.  It's true that she didn't care too much who was dying down there on the battlefield, as long as she won.  But that's the same for any leader in this medieval world.  These people operate by 11th century morals, not 21st century.  I don't know for certain why she didn't tell Jon about LF's army, but I suspect LF himself told her not to say anything.  I think the plan all along was to bait Ramsay into charging head-on at Jon's army knowing that he would overwhelm them, then doing a surprise flank with the Knights of the Vale.  Ramsay's forces needed to be completely distracted so they wouldn't see it coming.  Was it a nice thing to do to Jon's forces?  No.  Did it work?  Yes.  And at the end of the day, that is what matters in a medieval battle.

[dramachick]

13 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

From Star trek, a no win situation, all commanders go through.

Thanks for the explanation!

[GrailKing]

Just now, dramachick said:

Thanks for the explanation!

No problem. :>)

[HumblePi]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So basically, fan service, since that's not the way that Jon thinks or acts.

Let's not turn this into a man woman thing.  What Jon did was heat of the moment. Sansa actually had time to think about what she was doing and enjoyed watching him suffer. That's not to say that Ramsey didn't deserve it, just that it was a very cold and sadistic act.

I had been wondering for the past couple of seasons as to how Ramsey would meet his end. I knew it had to be harsh and hoped it wouldn't be too swift. The devouring of Ramsey by his own dogs who by the way, were used to murder his stepmother and her newborn baby, was the perfect ending for Ramsey Bolton.  I had hoped that they would show one of the monstrous dogs grasping him between his legs right at the crotch and leave it to our imagination that he was indeed castrated in the process of being devoured. That would have been perfect retribution for castrating Theon.

Edited June 20, 2016 by HumblePi

[Ronin Jackson]

Great episode... the team can really deliver when they need to go "big", and this would have been at home next to a Hollywood special effects extravaganza. It's actually better because by now we care about what's going on which I often find isn't the case with big Hollywood movies.

Was it explained why Sansa didn't tell Jon she was looking for extra troops? That could have altered the strategy and saved some lives.

[annsterg]

57 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

It was pretty clear what LF wanted based on his conversation with Cersei 2(?) seasons ago.  He wanted to be lord of Winterfell by pitting the Boltons against whoever (Stannis at that time) and used Knights of the Vale to defeat the winner.  That plan was still in tact more or less, the whoever was replaced by Jon's wildlings army.  

 

I also hope someone burn the stack and stack of bodies on that field, because you know, winter is cummin'

Man, the stink from those fires...the sheer number of bodies...ugh.

[Timetoread]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So basically, fan service, since that's not the way that Jon thinks or acts.

Let's not turn this into a man woman thing.  What Jon did was heat of the moment. Sansa actually had time to think about what she was doing and enjoyed watching him suffer. That's not to say that Ramsey didn't deserve it, just that it was a very cold and sadistic act.

Think of it as animal rescue, if it helps.  Those dogs hadn't eaten in a long time.

Honestly all I could think of during that scene was how Walda Fray-Bolton suffered the same fate holding her infant. Ramsey didn't suffer nearly enough.

[Timetoread]

4 hours ago, dramachick said:

I don't see Sansa as being smarter than Jon, and at this point I don't see the north or anybody else following her anywhere unless she's got Jon by her side. Like Varys said, power resides where men think it resides.  Ramsey was talking shit, but he was scared of Jon underneath the crazy. He said he'd heard that Jon could walk on water, so the word is out that Jon Snow is Somebody. Just like Grey Worm told that surviving master to go tell his friends what he witnessed of Danerys and her dragons, survivors of the Batttle of the Bastards will tell others what they witnessed when Jon Snow stood his ground and faced the onslaught of charging soldiers on horseback.  That is the stuff of which legends are made.

It'll be interesting to see how it ends for Littlefinger because I don't see a role for him in the story going forward. Neither Jon, nor the Vale army needs him, and quite frankly, it only makes sense for him to be taken out surreptitiously by the lords of the Vale just as it should have been done to Ramsey by the northern lords. I suspend disbelief for a lot of contrivances that I chalk up to the fantasy genre, but I believe that human emotions and actions should be honest and organic.

Sansa was right about Ramsey because she had lived with him, which is the same reason she has insight into Littlefinger, who is sexually attracted to her when he doesn't need to use her for something else. Otherwise, she's not good at reading people as we saw in her interactions with Mormount and Glover, and her condescending attitude towards Davos. It's understandable because she sees everything through the prism of her own experience, which does not include working with others to achieve desired goals. She wasn't raised to lead, and it doesn't come naturally to her. She's like Danerys in some ways, but Danerys now has Tyrion to help her.

But it doesn't matter because its not about Sansa. 

It's about Tyrion, Danerys and Jon.

Anybody is smarter than Jon. He's never done anything smart. He is earnest, fights well and is a pretty boy with curly hair. You are correct that the North won't follow Sansa because she is a woman.  Men don't respect or follow women.  Note that Dany, who apparently can do no right, is only tolerated by the viewing audience because she has some dragons and shows her tits on occasion.  Note that her standing army is a bunch of dudes with no dicks.  The ones with dicks are only there because they want to put theirs in her.  So I agree that from a writing standpoint the penises will prevail and narratively are the only ones to be given the hero treatment.  Brother James warned us that this is a man's world. I guess Sansa should stick to sewing so that Jon can get everybody killed uninterupted.

Still I think Sansa has cooked up enough just desserts to put some on LF's plate.  That kill is hers as well. She's good at killing the men she knows.

[Atia]

The dog looked like a presa canario.

[Timetoread]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Eh, Arya can't have all the kills on her list. I say feed the Red Woman to those monster dogs as their last meal.

What ever happened to Red's smoke baby?. He should be all grown up by now, making people cough all over the Seven Kingdoms.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

I was a Sansa hater from the very beginning.  To me she was this smug little entitled princess, and not doing or saying anything when her father was beheaded made me sick.  But she redeemed herself in my eyes by taking back Winterfell.  She owed that to her family and she came through.  It's true that she didn't care too much who was dying down there on the battlefield, as long as she won.  But that's the same for any leader in this medieval world.  These people operate by 11th century morals, not 21st century.  I don't know for certain why she didn't tell Jon about LF's army, but I suspect LF himself told her not to say anything.  I think the plan all along was to bait Ramsay into charging head-on at Jon's army knowing that he would overwhelm them, then doing a surprise flank with the Knights of the Vale.  Ramsay's forces needed to be completely distracted so they wouldn't see it coming.  Was it a nice thing to do to Jon's forces?  No.  Did it work?  Yes.  And at the end of the day, that is what matters in a medieval battle.

It's good Sansa was able to redeem herself in your eyes.  But my feelings about the situation and Sansa remain unchanged.  I don't consider her a leader because none of the Northern houses have thrown in with House Stark except badass Lady Lyanna and that little girl makes 10 of Sansa easily.  And even if they did, I don't believe they would answer to Sansa.

Edited June 20, 2016 by taurusrose

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

That 100%.  I also think Sansa just did not trust anyone anymore after what she had been through with LF & Ramsay.  She was becoming a formidable player for the Iron Throne just by the way she played the hands she was dealt.  Jon was basically mini version of Ned Stark, useful for fighting but not good with scheming. 

Here is the thing, there isn't one Stark fighting for the Iron Throne, not one.

Ned died for putting the rightful ruler on it and found a huge deception.

Robb died trying to save his dad, he had no plans on who would sit the chair.

Jon is fighting to save the wretched realm from Ice Zombies along with Bran.

Sansa is fighting for family and home and Arya for revenge and home.

And Rickon was just the spare heir per Bran.

They all are learning from mentors, and will use those skills to get home or save the realm, one or two of them may be King or Queen, but they're not looking for it, and don't want it.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

That's a good question even if it never comes up on the show. The Boltons and Littlefinger considered the marriage invalid because it had never been consummated. We don't really know how marriages work in Westeros - are there divorces? Divorce courts? Judges who decide these sorts of things? Because in legal terms Tyrion would have to testify and confirm the marriage was never consummated - or else Sansa would win by default if he failed to show up for the hearing I guess. But as far as we know there's no such technical mechanism for formally declaring a marriage null and void.

I vaguely recall Littlefinger getting some document from Cersei that declared Sansa's marriage to Tyrion void.   He was conspiring with Cersei before he went to the Aerie and before Winterfell; I just don't recall the specifics.

Littlefinger plays the long game, and Sansa better watch her step with him.  There's nothing stopping him from taking her, Jon and the few remaining Willdlings prisoner right now since he has all the soldiers.  But he wants to rule the North, and he knows he needs a Stark to hold the North, so he's likely to try to get Sansa to marry him or Robyn, not sure which one he's been angling for all this time.  She won't want to, so then he'll make some kind of veiled evil threat to force her to marry one of them.  Sansa knows he's happy to poison kings to get what he wants.

Hope Brienne makes it back soon!

[gbbarb]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

It's good Sansa was able to redeem herself in your eyes.  But my feelings about the situation and Sansa remain unchanged.  I don't consider her a leader because none of the Northern houses have thrown in with House Stark except badass Lady Lyanna and that little girl makes 10 of Sansa easily.  And even if they did, I don't believe they would answer to Sansa.

Lady Lyanna is a badass in name only, she hasn't been through anything yet.  

[TaurusRose]

4 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

Lady Lyanna is a badass in name only, she hasn't been through anything yet.  

Ditto for Sansa.  See previous posts for my thoughts on Sansa's worthiness.

Edited June 20, 2016 by taurusrose

[Timetoread]

3 hours ago, HumblePi said:

Sansa has been like a pimple since the first season. She's been annoying and well... dumb as dirt. She's the one that wanted to marry a King, even though it was sick puppy Joffrey. It was okay with her that he was cruel to others and even when he chopped off her father's head she was pretty okay with that too since she didn't have the guts to leave on her own. Knowing her aunt got pushed down the moon hole and still doing nothing but put on a pout was way beyond my tolerance of her. Her sad and desperately weepy eyed closeups made me want to slap her around a little. Okay, in my mind only, I'm non-violent. But still....maybe

So now that she has developed a little bit of brain matter and shuts her mouth except to speak a few words of sense, I like her a little bit now. As long as she doesn't get carried away with her own self-importance.

Are we watching the same show? Sansa was indeed a spoiled brat when she was a teenybopper who wanted to grow up and be queen.. She was hand delivered to the teenybopper future king who grew up to be Caligula. She was not okay with her father's death and indeed risked everything to plead for his life. She screamed and fainted at his beheading and endured Joffrey keeping his head on a stake to taunt her with. The aunt that was pushed out the Moon Door was trying to murder Sansa. So her punishable crime, I guess is not knowing her place. 

[gbbarb]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Ditto for Sansa.  

BS, Sansa had been through so much it's ridiculous.  You don't like her, I get that but lets not ignore the previous seasons just because you like another character better.

[TaurusRose]

2 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

BS, Sansa had been through so much it's ridiculous.  You don't like her, I get that but lets not ignore the previous seasons just because you like another character better.

Sansa has not suffered any more than anyone else from House Stark.  The ordeals they've endured have been different, that is all.  And no matter what she's endured, she still has her life.  You can't say that for Ned, Catelyn (hate her, too), Rob or Rickon.  And you are right, I don't like her.  I don't see her as the second coming of anything.  Never have and never will.  

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, RedHawk said:

To me it seems quite simple. She didn't trust Jon to lead and win the battle, especially with too few men, and Ramsay being basically an evil genius. We don't know if Littlefinger was able to send her news of his location and impending arrival, so perhaps she couldn't be sure that his army would arrive in time. When she talked to Jon, she got nothing from him that made her feel confident in revealing her action in contacting Littlefinger, so she kept silent and hoped. Had Jon known, the forces of the Vale would have lost the element of surprise, and Sansa knew they had to have that as well as numbers. 

Edited to add: Sansa had already accepted that her little brother Rickon would die. She didn't care a whit that many, many soldiers would die in the initial battle. Her best hope was that Ramsay would also expend many of his forces and the Vale army would arrive in time to finish them off. She is cold and calculating, as she's learned she must be.

I'm sure she cared, she's not Ramsey, or LF, or Tywyn, but she's pragmatic enough to know if you fight honorably in war you loose.

It was Ramsey who was raining arrows on both armies, his plan for a mountain of bodies to hem in Jon.

Bran learned this year in the TOJ scene honor doesn't win wars.

Her best weapon is she can read people, now she needs to try and read LF before her head rolls.

[gbbarb]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa has not suffered any more than anyone else from House Stark.  The ordeals they've endured have been different, that is all.  And no matter what she's endured, she still has her life.  You can't say that for Ned, Catelyn (hate her, too), Rob or Rickon.  And you are right, I don't like her.  I don't see her as the second coming of anything.  Never have and never will.  

Never send she was the second coming of anything.  I only said Lady Lyanna haven't been through anything to consider her a badass.  I few bad looks are nothing.  As for the rest I won't discuss with you as there is no point in arguing with someone who mind is set.  I didn't say wrong, just set so no need to yell at me.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, rozen said:

Imo, she didn't need to be that perceptive. She floated the idea of a perfect army, the Tully army, lead by Blackfish who is an accomplished and honorable general. Jon would not wait for Brienne to return. There's no indication that Brienne's raven stating her failure has even reached them yet.  And Blackfish would have actually stood with them, stood in that center and held, or died, as needed.

Sansa knows perfectly well that LF would take one look at those 2:1 odds and demand a position of maximum safety and only move when victory was guaranteed, Jon would never stand for it. That's ignoring the fact that LF betrayed their father and was a major contributor to his execution. The only way Jon knows how to deal with underhanded people is to kill him, he's very much Ned's son in that regard. And if he got into with LF and offended him (likely), what's stopping LF from letting Ramsay overextend himself and instead hit Winterfell from behind and take it for himself? Sansa was stuck. It was like Tyrion using Wildfyre, literally a tool of last resort that no one can know about beforehand or everything will promptly go sideways.

TBF, Jon was stuck too because he knew there was no way he could hold the Wildlings together for a rough winter with the White Walkers coming, they've got preparations of their own to make. But everything was undone because he charged like a fool when Sansa explicitly told him Ramsay was a mind-game playing sadist. 

Incorrect, Jon states that the Black Fish can't help them in the war council meeting.

They got the message.

[represent]

I'm not a die hard fan when it comes to this show, but this episode was fabulous. I've watched this off and on so I'm not straight on all of the politics/thrones, and who rules what. But I've seen enough of Ramsey to have felt the glee and justice in how he met his end. OMG, when he had his baby brother and the mother eaten by his hounds.... Getting eaten alive by his very own hounds was sweet justice, no better way for him to go.

I also loved the girl power.I don't know how often it's shown, since I'm a scattered viewer of this show,  but there seemed to be a large dose of it in this episode and I loved it. 

The battle was amazing, well done.

Edited June 20, 2016 by represent

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, RCharter said:

I don't think smarter is the word.  I think Sansa is more cunning and more strategic than Jon.  And I think she has always been that way, Arya was more like a battle axe to get what she wanted and Sansa was more like a velvet glove.  However, she now has an iron fist in her velvet glove.  

I think the North still remembers and will want to follow another Stark, especially once that got rid of Ramsay.  It also seems like the people of the North don't have a problem following the adorable Lady Bear, so I don't know that they have an issue with women leaders.  I think Ramsay was scared of taking anyone on in one-on-one combat.  Especially someone that has been fighting at the Wall.  Ramsay was basically a coward -- he fought people who had no power, servants and peasants, and Sansa when she couldn't leave him, Ramsay wants to have his dogs do the killing, and shoot an arrow.  I don't think he would have wanted to do a one on one fight with anyone.

And honestly, I don't think Jon wants particularly wants Winterfell.  I think he knows that he needs to fight the WightWalkers, and ultimately his home may be with the wildlings beyond the Wall.  That is where he was his happiest.  Winterfell is his home, but he was never "good enough" for Winterfell.

I do think the North will have a problem with LittleFinger.  And I think he likely arranged some sort of marriage to Sansa in exchange for the Arryn Army.

But I also think LF has a lot of power.  He still pretty much rules the Vale, since Lord Robin relies on him.  He will certainly have exchanged something for his help in this battle.  And I think Sansa was so desperate to get her home back she would have promised him anything.  So, I think he has a role in both Winterfell and the Vale.  

She promised nothing, the letter said

I'll see you properly rewarded.

she used double speech there.

[RCharter]

51 minutes ago, Atia said:

The dog looked like a presa canario.

I thought so too, but I was sort of hoping it wasn't.  Those dogs got a really bad rap after the San Francisco dog mauling.

[revbfc]

Question about Wun Wun's dead body:

Who moved it?