O.J.: Made In America - Part 2

[vmcd88]

I had forgotten all about the Marcus Allen affair.  After all these years I wonder why he hasnt suffered any backlash.   What has always been so terrifying about OJ is that he can present such a pleasant persona which is all an illusion.  You just know there is rage boiling there right beneath the surface.   Listening to him describe beating Nicole he really thought he could OJ his way out of anything.   That Rodney King video is never not stomach churning.      I must say after The People Vs. OJ I didnt think I could watch anything else OJ related but this series is damn good.  

[Decider]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

It's amazing to think that someone actually brought a video camera to shoot the King beating. Back then video cameras were monsters, I had one and it was so big I had to carry it on my shoulder. What has changed in the conversation today is the fact that everyone has a video camera in their phone. So when police would try to spin the story of the black man with a weapon coming at them, many times the video that comes forth belies their story. 

George Holliday, the person who shot the footage, was standing on the balcony of his apartment building.

Link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-filmed-rodney-king-beating-proud-film-article-1.2551126

Edited June 16, 2016 by Decider

[DangerousMinds]

4 minutes ago, vmcd88 said:

I had forgotten all about the Marcus Allen affair.  After all these years I wonder why he hasnt suffered any backlash.   What has always been so terrifying about OJ is that he can present such a pleasant persona which is all an illusion.  You just know there is rage boiling there right beneath the surface.   Listening to him describe beating Nicole he really thought he could OJ his way out of anything.   That Rodney King video is never not stomach churning.      I must say after The People Vs. OJ I didnt think I could watch anything else OJ related but this series is damn good.  

Backlash for what? If he cheated, the only "backlash" should come from his fiancée/wife, IMO.

[AllAboutMBTV]

Thanks to the various posters above re: Marguerite. I was hoping the director would address the timeline of their divorce and what happened to her and their surviving child.

I certainly knew about the Rodney King and Reginald Denny horror show, but I had no idea about the Harlings murder. I can't say I'm "enjoying" this brilliant series, but it is utterly gripping (and, for once, I don't mind the commercials, as they provide a needed break). Still, I feel like I need a Silkwood shower after each episode. And huge kudos to our Sarah D. Bunting for her thoughtful... thoughts.

[Hanahope]

17 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Hey, Mark Fuhrman, shut the fuck up!

As if a choke hold couldn't do worse, says Eric Garner.

 

Watching this series, being reminded about King and Harlings, and my recent viewing of Straight Outta Compton, just makes me think back to the bubble I was living in at that time.  Even though I lived in LA and heard all about the deaths and Darryl Gates, I had no real understanding of what their lives were like, what the people of South Central had to deal with.  I was just told by friends and family, never to venture in that area.  It makes me feel ashamed that for a short time, I thought minorities were being given "too many advantages" when I was a student at UCLA.  It makes me real glad that escaped that bubble, that I moved away and experienced life in a lot of other environments.  And now 20 years later, not a whole lot has changed, and it absolutely disgusts me. And to think that enough people in this country are considering voting for Trump to make him a major party nominee is unfathomable.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Hanahope

[smiley13]

OJ's two surviving children with Marguerite are Jason and Arnell.  Arnell was living at Rockingham at the time of the murders.  Jason was working as a chef in LA at the time.

They touched barely on the divorce timeline since dwelling on it makes Nicole look bad.  These shows never focus on anything that makes Nicole look bad.

[reggiejax]

Quote

These shows never focus on anything that makes Nicole look bad.

I know this opinion will be unpopular, but I couldn't help but think to myself, Jesus Fucking Christ, of all the people for Nicole to fuck around with, she picks Marcus Allen! The one guy she absolutely damn well knows will send OJ through the roof? She knows there will be a reaction, and she knows what the reaction will be!

And I cannot stress enough that I don't excuse OJ one bit for any of the violence he inflicted on Nicole, nor do I even consider this a mitigating circumstance from a legal point of view, though defense lawyers no doubt would. But talk about your poor fucking decisions. And yes, that goes for Marcus Allen too.

Edited June 16, 2016 by reggiejax

[smiley13]

Her life showed a string of bad decisions.  She hooked up with a married man, married an abusive man, had children with him so they were forever linked together, kept taking back the abusive man, etc.

[DangerousMinds]

2 hours ago, smiley13 said:

OJ's two surviving children with Marguerite are Jason and Arnell.  Arnell was living at Rockingham at the time of the murders.  Jason was working as a chef in LA at the time.

They touched barely on the divorce timeline since dwelling on it makes Nicole look bad.  These shows never focus on anything that makes Nicole look bad.

Doesn't make her look "bad" to me. She was a teenager and believed whatever OJ, a man almost twice her age, a rich celebrity, told her. I would guess he told her they were in the midst of divorce proceedings or similar. Regardless, he was the only one of the two who pledged vows to another.

1 hour ago, reggiejax said:

I know this opinion will be unpopular, but I couldn't help but think to myself, Jesus Fucking Christ, of all the people for Nicole to fuck around with, she picks Marcus Allen! The one guy she absolutely damn well knows will send OJ through the roof? She knows there will be a reaction, and she knows what the reaction will be!

And I cannot stress enough that I don't excuse OJ one bit for any of the violence he inflicted on Nicole, nor do I even consider this a mitigating circumstance from a legal point of view, though defense lawyers no doubt would. But talk about your poor fucking decisions. And yes, that goes for Marcus Allen too.

I wonder how many women OJ cheated with while married to Nicole?

1 hour ago, smiley13 said:

Her life showed a string of bad decisions.  She hooked up with a married man, married an abusive man, had children with him so they were forever linked together, kept taking back the abusive man, etc.

none of which have any bearing on the fact that he murdered her. None of that matters.

[reggiejax]

Quote

I wonder how many women OJ cheated with while married to Nicole?

Probably too numerous to mention. No one is suggesting that OJ was anything but the incorrigible womanizer he was often described as, and certainly no one has ever suggested he was in the right to do so.

[smiley13]

29 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I wonder how many women OJ cheated with while married to Nicole?

None of that has any bearing on Nicole's death.  It is just another example of her bad decisions.  Remember, if he cheats with you , he will cheat on you 

[bosawks]

I think she probably left him because he beat the shit out of her and she thought he'd eventually kill her not because he cheated.

[mojoween]

Tom Lange is a dick.

He declares that the Reginald Denny beating is the worst thing he's ever seen without a HINT of irony that the beating of Rodney King, that he declared justified, was the catalyst for the entire incident.

[jaync]

Quote

Her life showed a string of bad decisions.

Maybe, but that's no secret, and it doesn't make her a bad person. I'm not understanding the need for there to be more focus on her and/or for her to be shown in a bad light. She's not here to defend herself, and it's not as if it would make O.J. more sympathetic.

[TXLonghorn93]

On June 15, 2016 at 6:59 AM, smiley13 said:

Marcus Allen continues to skate through with his involvement in all of this.    I still think that Marcus Allen lied during his deposition and faced no repercussions for it.  

I wish they would have spent more time discussing the background of OJ and not the misdeeds of the LAPD.  These shows continue to skate around Nicole's history.  So there was no mention of her partying it up with druggie Faye Resnick?  

It seems like the most truthful accounts of Nicole actually came from Resnick,

I'm verklempt at your string of posts regarding Nicole.  Nothing she ever did in her life is in the same stratosphere as domestic violence and murder so why in the world would her misdeeds be discussed in a documentary about her killer?

Faye, who profited from her dead "friend's" death is an unimpeachable source?  Seriously!  By the way, Nicole's autopsy showed no evidence of heavy drug use nor were there drugs in her lab results.

[psychoticstate]

On 6/15/2016 at 8:06 AM, angelamh66 said:

And I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion but I will never understand the rioting, here or in any other similar instance. I do understand being so pissed off that you feel violent and like nothing would feel better than to act on that violence, but in this type of scenario doesn't it just give those that want to paint people of color in a certain violent and lawless light more ammo to do so? And I will never understand how beating a white truck driver nearly to death accomplishes anything for the cause. Two wrongs do not make a right and that guy was just going about his day trying to do his job and had nothing to do with any of the LAPD stuff.

I couldn't agree more.  I find the beating done to Rodney King reprehensible and disgusting; the not guilty verdicts were a disgrace.  However, suggesting that the LA community had no alternative and what else did we expect them to do is a cop out IMO.  Reginald Denny, the truck driver who was nearly beaten to death, had nothing to do with it and shouldn't have been a victim to pacify enraged citizens.  Would the Goldman family get a pass if they had burned down Brentwood after the criminal verdict?  It's really no different.

I do remember hearing and reading about the Marcus Allen alleged affair.  As far as why Allen hasn't come clean, I think back in 94 he was scared of Simpson.  If Simpson would nearly decapitate the woman he claimed to love so much, what would he do to someone he had a competitive "frenemy" type relationship with?  

That said, I am very impressed with this documentary.  It's very well done and shows many facets of Simpson.

[Bama]

Just watched Roy Firestone be interviewed by Colin Cowherd and Jason Whitlock to get his reaction to the backlash he is getting for the interview he did with OJ that was featured in this episode.

He said watching it back, he felt like he needed to take a shower.  That he felt disgusted by it.  But that in context - 27 years ago - that OJ had no criminal record at the time and that he bought OJ's story and he bought into the "OJ myth" (his words).  

Yikes.  When asked about the response he has gotten on social media - he has gotten tweets hoping his daughters are murdered and tweets blaming him for allowing the murders to happen.  He then talks about how DV is a very important issue to him and that people saying he enabled the murders make him ill.  

Says looking back at how chummy his was during the interview and referring to OJ as "Juice" is what makes him disgusted when he looks at it now.  Says there was zero criticism of the interview at the time.

This I didn't know - Marcia Clark tried to get that interview entered into evidence during the trial and Judge Ito wouldn't allow it.  

He regrets not being harder on OJ.  He is bothered by being "affixed" with enabling DV.  He says when he first heard about Nicole being murdered he immediately thought to himself "OJ did this".  He 100% believes that OJ murdered Ron and Nicole.

He would have liked to have been interviewed in the present for the documentary.  Says it would have been more "journalistically sound" to get his take.  Says that he wasn't given the opportunity to defend himself in regards to this interview shown.  

Says that Marcia Clark told him two weeks ago that LAPD - even after the 911 calls - would go to OJ's house and ask for autographs and advise him to "chill out and watch himself".  Says the LAPD dropped the ball.

Says we are still fascinated by OJ because he was on the Mount Rushmore of sports and celebrity.  That he was in our living room and the fact that someone that famous and trusted could commit such an act is something we still can't really wrap our minds around.

He's definitely in damage control mode.

[RCharter]

^^ I expect Firestone was like everyone else and was taken with the OJ charm.  And at the time the way OJ (and Nicole) were selling it was as a fight that went too far, and not DV.  The director made the decision on how to tell the story, and he is under no obligation to give Firestone a chance to explain himself, because Firestone and his interview were a part of the culture that coddled OJ.  The fact that OJ didn't have a criminal record didn't mean that he had to be chummy with him.  And I suspect that there are rumors still floating around about certain athletes and they aren't really grilled.  

[Pollock]

On 15/6/2016 at 2:23 PM, Midnight Cheese said:

This. 

The series is amazing.  Seeing Fuhrman talk about a community burning itself down - it is to laugh.  To laugh bitterly, at least.  I did not know about Latasha Harlins's murder.   That footage was so shocking. 

Those eight hours were so good, I don't even know where to begin. I learned so much. So so much. I was going for a true crime type of show, like Making a Murderer and The Jinx or the Staircase and we got 8 hours about America's recent history on top of the true crime aspect.

To provide some context of my viewing experience and my comments : I'm a 38 years old french woman. Being half moroccan (and when I had long hair there was no doubt about it!) racism is a thing I had experienced in France first hand way too young even from the white half of my family. I remember seeing on french news the Rodney King's beating and the riots and being shocked as a teenager by the violence of it. Seeing Los Angeles burn, at a time where I knew virtually nothing more about America than the Prince of Bel Air, Alf, Full House and Save by the Bell was terrifying. Also, in France, we had 2 years earlier our share of urban riots in poor neighborhoods (mostly coming from the children of maghrebis immigrants like my mother was, people who were called upon when my country had to be rebuilt after WW2, also refugees from France lost colonial empire and discarded like the trash when they were not needed anymore) and we will have some others later in 1992 due too to police violence and their impunity (and again in 2005 for three weeks). So it spoke to me at the time and it still speaks to me.

But the Latasha Harlins's murder was new to me too. I had never heard of it until that documentary. That was horrible. So horrible that I didn't even comprehend what I saw in the video, had to rewind and watch again and then understood : that girl was killed for a box of orange juice. And her murderer got a pinch on her little finger for punishment. I don't get what the fuck the judge was talking about when she said it was an understable reaction. HOW?! HOW is that an understable reaction?! HOW?! Los Angeles dodged the bullet Latasha didn't when there was no riot at the time. Seriously. And in light of the Trayvon Martin's murder, what is there to say?... History repeats itself, nothing new to see, thank you very much goodbye... Damn! Operation Hammer was also new to me. It was disgusting. Appalling... There is simply no word to express the humiliation, the beatings, the destruction... I get the riots. I get it. Really. When the reward for taking (mostly) the high road for decades and turning the other cheek so often is humiliation upon humiliation upon further humiliation, it should be no surprise that at the end of the story, the moutain gave birth to a volcano. The first and second episodes did a good job showing the boiling pot. All I could think about was those rejoicing screams at the OJ verdict and I began to get why they were going to happen.

Anyway, great documentary. It was balanced regarding those issues. I feel like every side got to talk about it. The director didn't shy away from showing the shocking and terrifying attack of Reginald Denny, some LAPD officers got to state their point of view on the racial issue in a fair manner. I got some of their point, I understood law enforcement point of view sometimes. I didn't agree with it but I understood it. Really, the documentary is as fair as it can be given the context of systemic abuse African-Americans suffer for centuries. It gave explanations if not exonerations. This series is a lot to take in on the racial front and after that on the abused women one, it became physically painful for me to watch. The silence about both of those issues was astounding. The other officers watching that man being beaten, friends and family watching Nicole being beaten. And nobody said anything. Nobody intervened. Doing nothing is an active gesture at the end of the day, and the series demonstrated it further. Those "micro-silences" really mirrored the things we choose to ignore as a society.

And we got Fuhrman. What a treat.... thank you for coming on my screen man... He learned nothing. The contempt he still displays about the Rodney King's beating which would have never happened if the public who knows nothing and is so fucking stupid didn't ask for the chockehold to be illegal... his contempt for poor dumb black people burning their own filthy backyard... We saw that the police did nothing at first. Does he really think it would have been the case if the rioters made an attempt to go where the riches were? The police and the army would have been there faster it took OJ to rush 90 yards and Los Angeles would have been dripping in blood the first ten minutes. 

That leaves me with Simpson. When the news of his arrest broke in France, indifference prevailed as far as I can remember. We don't have that sport here, it's not real football, it's not even rugby (not that I care for sport) so all my friends and I saw was that the guy from Naked Gun was arrested for murder. Not really the big deal that the news were trying to sell us. I mean, come on! OJ Simpson was no John Stamos! The documentary is so well done to capture his personality that I was rooting for young OJ. It conveyed really well his charm. I can't reconcile the hard working, mother loving, funny, generous, intelligent, eager to learn guy and the psycho who murdered two people, who almost decapitated the mother of his children while they were asleep, just left her on the frontdoor staircase for them to find and who butchered some random man who was just here at the wrong place and time. At the end of this episode, three hours in, I couldn't believe what was "about to happen". I mean, I know it, I've seen it in the news, I've seen American crime Story, I've read everything the forum talked about the case, I've read wikipedia, and still, I root for him and wish the story is going to change somehow. He's gonna be innocent. Nicole and Ron are still alive and well. Nicole's photograph carrer is florishing ; Ron's restaurant is a success. All of this was a bad joke, just a tv show. OJ is a productive member of the society and the role model he was destined to be. So sad. 

[RCharter]

23 minutes ago, Pollock said:

Those eight hours were so good, I don't even know where to begin. I learned so much. So so much. I was going for a true crime type of show, like Making a Murderer and The Jinx or the Staircase and we got 8 hours about America's recent history on top of the true crime aspect.

To provide some context of my viewing experience and my comments : I'm a 38 years old french woman. Being half moroccan (and when I had long hair there was no doubt about it!) racism is a thing I had experienced in France first hand way too young even from the white half of my family. I remember seeing on french news the Rodney King's beating and the riots and being shocked as a teenager by the violence of it. Seeing Los Angeles burn, at a time where I knew virtually nothing more about America than the Prince of Bel Air, Alf, Full House and Save by the Bell was terrifying. Also, in France, we had 2 years earlier our share of urban riots in poor neighborhoods (mostly coming from the children of maghrebis immigrants like my mother was, people who were called upon when my country had to be rebuilt after WW2, also refugees from France lost colonial empire and discarded like the trash when they were not needed anymore) and we will have some others later in 1992 due too to police violence and their impunity (and again in 2005 for three weeks). So it spoke to me at the time and it still speaks to me.

But the Latasha Harlins's murder was new to me too. I had never heard of it until that documentary. That was horrible. So horrible that I didn't even comprehend what I saw in the video, had to rewind and watch again and then understood : that girl was killed for a box of orange juice. And her murderer got a pinch on her little finger for punishment. I don't get what the fuck the judge was talking about when she said it was an understable reaction. HOW?! HOW is that an understable reaction?! HOW?! Los Angeles dodged the bullet Latasha didn't when there was no riot at the time. Seriously. And in light of the Trayvon Martin's murder, what is there to say?... History repeats itself, nothing new to see, thank you very much goodbye... Damn! Operation Hammer was also new to me. It was disgusting. Appalling... There is simply no word to express the humiliation, the beatings, the destruction... I get the riots. I get it. Really. When the reward for taking (mostly) the high road for decades and turning the other cheek so often is humiliation upon humiliation upon further humiliation, it should be no surprise that at the end of the story, the mountain gave birth to a volcano. The first and second episodes did a good job showing the boiling pot. All I could think about was those rejoicing screams at the OJ verdict and I began to get why they were going to happen.

I couldn't agree more, and I love that saying so I'm stealing it.  I understand people saying that rioting was illogical, and it probably was, but I understand it.  And honestly, I'm not sure what their other avenues were.  When the community sought justice, they were told that the cops can't be held liable for beating a man on video and that those same cops would go right back to policing their communities, they were told that a woman can shoot a 15 year old girl in the back of the head over orange juice and get probation.  The community tried going the legal route and were stymied over and over and over again.  

Your unique point of view makes me think that the rioting was not only a black eye to LA in the eyes of the nation, but to the eyes of the world.  And that may be part of the reason why so many changes were made following the OJ verdict and the riots.

As for OJ, his is a unique study in nature vs. nurture vs. maybe some brain injury that exacerbated already criminal tendencies.  At parts his story really does remind me of that book Native Son, where the main character is basically a blank slate that society writes on and eventually turns him into a monster.  It sounds like growing up, he was an entitled jerk with an ego, but no more than anyone else who has been told that they are gifted and coddled because of their gift.  But once he hit the LA scene he turned into someone much, much darker.  And what was that about.....was that side of him always in there?  Was there something about the LA scene that fundamentally changed him?  Was there some brain injury that was taking hold and making a guy who was always a jerk into someone much darker?

Edited June 17, 2016 by RCharter

[attica]

16 hours ago, smiley13 said:

Her life showed a string of bad decisions.

Here's the thing, though. Part of the syndrome of IP violence is that the abuser grinds down like sandpaper away the victim's ability to make good decisions, i.e. anything that gets the victim out of his control. He sweeps her off her feet really early (and it helps if she's still young!). He isolates her, so she loses any support system but him. He gaslights her, so that she no longer trusts her own perception of reality. He controls the money. He continually moves the goal posts of expectations, so that she never knows from one minute to the next what the 'correct' thing to do that won't set him off: a thing that is unremarkable on Monday will earn a beatdown on Tuesday, but might get flowers on Friday. Add to that all the pressure society puts on women to 'give him another chance', 'keep the family together', 'let the kids have a relationship with their dad', and: she stays. Or goes back after leaving. He can push her buttons so easily because he installed them. On purpose. 

So it's like saying a clinically depressed person should just cheer up. The brain won't let them.

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, attica said:

Here's the thing, though. Part of the syndrome of IP violence is that the abuser grinds down like sandpaper away the victim's ability to make good decisions, i.e. anything that gets the victim out of his control. He sweeps her off her feet really early (and it helps if she's still young!). He isolates her, so she loses any support system but him. He gaslights her, so that she no longer trusts her own perception of reality. He controls the money. He continually moves the goal posts of expectations, so that she never knows from one minute to the next what the 'correct' thing to do that won't set him off: a thing that is unremarkable on Monday will earn a beatdown on Tuesday, but might get flowers on Friday. Add to that all the pressure society puts on women to 'give him another chance', 'keep the family together', 'let the kids have a relationship with their dad', and: she stays. Or goes back after leaving. He can push her buttons so easily because he installed them. On purpose. 

So it's like saying a clinically depressed person should just cheer up. The brain won't let them.

Look at even when she reached out to Ron Shipp, a friend to both of them who was LAPD who stated he was disgusted when she showed him photos of the abuse, where was he after her murder? A wake/party/whatever with OJ. I mean a lot of the interviews are covering ass but he acknowledges that she went to him with photos of abuse and he saw it as abuse and yet after she had been brutally murdered he went to an event at his home. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

I had somehow never heard about Simpson aggressively pursuing the role of Coalhouse in the Milos Forman film of Ragtime. It was chilling to me when he said he identified with that character and considered himself "the Coalhouse Walker of today." Who, watching that interview at the time, would have imagined that a little more than a decade later, Simpson, like Coalhouse Walker, would become synonymous with violence and destruction and, like Coalhouse, would fall from paradise, wiping out everything good? 

I am glad the casting worked out as it did, by the way. Howard E. Rollins, Jr. (RIP) was brilliant in that part. He seemed to have the potential then to be a new Poitier. It doesn't take away from the performance that that never happened. He had a good career, especially considering his personal problems, but there was still a feeling of squandered potential. Rollins's "Lord, why you put such a rage in my heart?" in his last scene in Ragtime really should be better known as a great screen monologue. I have a hard time imagining Simpson equaling that.  

I'm only up to part two right now, but this series is a real feather for ESPN. I've felt a lot of things about Simpson's case, but this is delivering more sadness than anything else has. Also, I keep being amazed at footage and photos they have managed to find. This rises far above the level of what it could have been, and if it continues to be this good, it could be the definitive statement on Simpson in any medium. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[smiley13]

Howard Rollins sure ended up squandering his career.

I think overall this series has been good.  It has been thorough in some parts, but lacking in others though.

[reggiejax]

Quote

This I didn't know - Marcia Clark tried to get that interview entered into evidence during the trial and Judge Ito wouldn't allow it.

I did not know that either. If true, then Marcia Clark is an even bigger idiot than I thought. That interview she tries to enter into evidence. The one where OJ turns on the famed OJ charm and almost has you believing it really was all just a big misunderstanding. I am so sure that would have made OJ looks so terrible with the jury comprised of people already sympathetic towards him and decidedly not so with Nicole. Yeah, that would have been a smooth move, ExLax.

(apologies for any sarcasm that dripped on to anyone's keyboard)

That interview she wants to enter, but not the interview with the police, the one where OJ is fumbling around for answers, cannot keep anything straight, and makes little sense, all indicating a consciousness of guilt. No, that one she made a point to keep out.

I shouldn't be surprised, but nothing Clark has said in this doc has changed my mind one bit about how truly and colossally she fucked up.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Firestone's interview with Simpson is embarrassing in retrospect (and maybe even was at the time), but ESPN redeemed itself with the 1998 Up Close that followed the civil trial. Chris Myers (with some behind-the-scenes pointers from former prosecutor and avowed Simpson foe Vincent Bugliosi) gave Simpson the grilling of a lifetime. The whole thing is on YouTube, or at least was when the FX series was on.

[psychoticstate]

10 hours ago, Bama said:

He said watching it back, he felt like he needed to take a shower.  That he felt disgusted by it.  But that in context - 27 years ago - that OJ had no criminal record at the time and that he bought OJ's story and he bought into the "OJ myth" (his words).  

Yikes.  When asked about the response he has gotten on social media - he has gotten tweets hoping his daughters are murdered and tweets blaming him for allowing the murders to happen.  He then talks about how DV is a very important issue to him and that people saying he enabled the murders make him ill.  

How tragic for Firestone.  No one but O.J. Simpson is responsible for the murders.  I don't care who he said what to beforehand, he didn't tell anyone point blank that he was going to kill Nicole, so the only responsibility lies at Simpson's doorstep.

 

9 hours ago, RCharter said:

I understand people saying that rioting was illogical, and it probably was, but I understand it.  And honestly, I'm not sure what their other avenues were.  When the community sought justice, they were told that the cops can't be held liable for beating a man on video and that those same cops would go right back to policing their communities, they were told that a woman can shoot a 15 year old girl in the back of the head over orange juice and get probation.  The community tried going the legal route and were stymied over and over and over again.  

What other avenues?  What do the loved ones of murder victims do?  They don't riot, burn down their neighborhoods, beat strangers and whatnot because they are upset.  Injustices are done every day.  It's not right and it's not fair and the injustices that the LAPD committed should have been punished, no two ways about it.  But to suggest that the only avenue available to the community was to riot, wreak destruction and injure other people is unbelievable.  If that was considered acceptable, wouldn't every single person who had a grievance of any kind have the right to destruction (whether it be property or persons)?  Trying to end violence with violence is not a reasonable suggestion.  Trying to end police corruption and bias against a particular segment of the population by acting out in the exact way some of these cops associate that population with is counterproductive (and supports the wrong statements some people make about that population.) 

[attica]

13 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

 

Firestone's interview with Simpson is embarrassing in retrospect

 

And yet, journalism like that is still produced: the SB Nation profile of serial rapist Daniel Holtzclaw, a bunch of articles about Stanford swimmer-rapist Brock Turner, and a brand new piece about Jameis Winston, All of them are, oh, these poor talented men with such athletic promise! How sad that these "accusations" have put crimps in their lives! Firestone has lots of company to hide his embarrassment in.

[DangerousMinds]

23 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

How tragic for Firestone.  No one but O.J. Simpson is responsible for the murders.  I don't care who he said what to beforehand, he didn't tell anyone point blank that he was going to kill Nicole, so the only responsibility lies at Simpson's doorstep.

 

What other avenues?  What do the loved ones of murder victims do?  They don't riot, burn down their neighborhoods, beat strangers and whatnot because they are upset.  Injustices are done every day.  It's not right and it's not fair and the injustices that the LAPD committed should have been punished, no two ways about it.  But to suggest that the only avenue available to the community was to riot, wreak destruction and injure other people is unbelievable.  If that was considered acceptable, wouldn't every single person who had a grievance of any kind have the right to destruction (whether it be property or persons)?  Trying to end violence with violence is not a reasonable suggestion.  Trying to end police corruption and bias against a particular segment of the population by acting out in the exact way some of these cops associate that population with is counterproductive (and supports the wrong statements some people make about that population.) 

Injuring innocent people makes no sense. Maybe they should have tried to burn down LAPD? In any case, 2 wrongs never make a right.

[psychoticstate]

On 6/16/2016 at 10:14 AM, reggiejax said:

I know this opinion will be unpopular, but I couldn't help but think to myself, Jesus Fucking Christ, of all the people for Nicole to fuck around with, she picks Marcus Allen! The one guy she absolutely damn well knows will send OJ through the roof? She knows there will be a reaction, and she knows what the reaction will be!

And I cannot stress enough that I don't excuse OJ one bit for any of the violence he inflicted on Nicole, nor do I even consider this a mitigating circumstance from a legal point of view, though defense lawyers no doubt would. But talk about your poor fucking decisions. And yes, that goes for Marcus Allen too.

I think the person she may have been waiting for that night was Marcus.  Faye Resnick mentioned in her book that Nicole was having an affair with him, not Ron.  She said that Nicole thought Ron was cute but nothing else; she was utterly taken in by Marcus.  Also, Ron was supposedly meeting friends after dropping the glasses at Nicole's so if he was there to spend time with her or hook up, it wouldn't make sense that he would plan on meeting his friends at the same time.

I also recall hearing that Marcus and his wife Kathryn left for the Bahamas very quickly on June 13.  It makes me wonder if Marcus did show up that evening and saw the bodies and knew who had done it and had left not only for his safety but also to keep himself away from the investigation.

[springbarb]

5 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Look at even when she reached out to Ron Shipp, a friend to both of them who was LAPD who stated he was disgusted when she showed him photos of the abuse, where was he after her murder? A wake/party/whatever with OJ. I mean a lot of the interviews are covering ass but he acknowledges that she went to him with photos of abuse and he saw it as abuse and yet after she had been brutally murdered he went to an event at his home. 

I thought the caption said it was a wake thrown by the Browns.

[mojoween]

One thing they didn't touch on in this part was that the riots really beat the shit out of Asian-owned businesses and now I wonder if the grossly under-punished murder of that young girl had something to do with it.

[Bastet]

Quote

One thing they didn't touch on in this part was that the riots really beat the shit out of Asian-owned businesses and now I wonder if the grossly under-punished murder of that young girl had something to do with it.

Oh, definitely -- there was immense tension between those two communities prior to Harlins being killed, and the unconscionable sentence made things worse.  During the riots, you'd see "black owned" posted on some businesses.  Oftentimes, it was a business that had been purchased from the previous Korean owner without making any changes to the signage.

[RCharter]

3 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

How tragic for Firestone.  No one but O.J. Simpson is responsible for the murders.  I don't care who he said what to beforehand, he didn't tell anyone point blank that he was going to kill Nicole, so the only responsibility lies at Simpson's doorstep.

 

What other avenues?  What do the loved ones of murder victims do?  They don't riot, burn down their neighborhoods, beat strangers and whatnot because they are upset.  Injustices are done every day.  It's not right and it's not fair and the injustices that the LAPD committed should have been punished, no two ways about it.  But to suggest that the only avenue available to the community was to riot, wreak destruction and injure other people is unbelievable.  If that was considered acceptable, wouldn't every single person who had a grievance of any kind have the right to destruction (whether it be property or persons)?  Trying to end violence with violence is not a reasonable suggestion.  Trying to end police corruption and bias against a particular segment of the population by acting out in the exact way some of these cops associate that population with is counterproductive (and supports the wrong statements some people make about that population.) 

A murder is tragic, but its not the same as an institutionalized, state sanctioned police force that routinely goes around harassing and beating people with zero consequence.  I don't even see how the two can really be compared.  And the loved ones of murder victims have a court system to adjudicate their conflicts.  The communities that were the victims of police brutality often had nothing, because the person you complain to about police brutality...are the police.  When you try to use the legal system for help....you have no proof....or you are in prison already.

And were the riots really counterproductive?  Because they brought on a lot of change that may not have otherwise happened.  I would say that the riots were why the city got rid of Daryl Gates, and made sweeping changes to community policing within the LAPD.

So, for better or worse, ultimately the riots weren't counterproductive, since they brought about change in the community.  Change that would not have otherwise occurred.

2 hours ago, attica said:

And yet, journalism like that is still produced: the SB Nation profile of serial rapist Daniel Holtzclaw, a bunch of articles about Stanford swimmer-rapist Brock Turner, and a brand new piece about Jameis Winston, All of them are, oh, these poor talented men with such athletic promise! How sad that these "accusations" have put crimps in their lives! Firestone has lots of company to hide his embarrassment in.

Yeah, I hardly think Firestone is alone in the field of "sports journalist who coddled an athlete in an interview."  The Brock Turner thing makes my stomach churn.

[reggiejax]

Quote

And were the riots really counterproductive?  Because they brought on a lot of change that may not have otherwise happened.  I would say that the riots were why the city got rid of Daryl Gates, and made sweeping changes to community policing within the LAPD.

The riots did not force out Daryl Gates. Gates had already announced his intention to retire in 1991. 

I will grant that he had not set a date to step down from his position as Chief, but it was in the works, and his successor, Willie Williams, had already been named at the time of the riots.

At best, the riots made the inevitable happen a little bit sooner.

I cannot speak about any changes in policy within the LAPD, but I daresay that such changes could have been accomplished without any destruction or violence.

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, RCharter said:

Yeah, I hardly think Firestone is alone in the field of "sports journalist who coddled an athlete in an interview."  The Brock Turner thing makes my stomach churn.

Yep.  Or look how they handle Floyd Mayweather. What happened in the OJ Simpson interview still happens.  With sports stars.  With actors/celebrities. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Her life showed a string of bad decisions.

I would agree she made some terrible choices in her life.  I'd also say it doesn't matter at all, because no bad decision she made justifies her being brutally murdered. 

Quote

So, for better or worse, ultimately the riots weren't counterproductive, since they brought about change in the community.  Change that would not have otherwise occurred.

 

Anytime mass violence is unleashed on a neighborhood, it is going to be counterproductive, whether it be by the police, or angry rioters.  A lot of innocent people had their livelihoods destroyed by those riots, and it took those neighborhoods a long time to bounce back.  Whatever changes were allegedly accomplished by the rioting, I can't imagine it would ever be worth it.   

[RCharter]

23 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree she made some terrible choices in her life.  I'd also say it doesn't matter at all, because no bad decision she made justifies her being brutally murdered. 

Anytime mass violence is unleashed on a neighborhood, it is going to be counterproductive, whether it be by the police, or angry rioters.  A lot of innocent people had their livelihoods destroyed by those riots, and it took those neighborhoods a long time to bounce back.  Whatever changes were allegedly accomplished by the rioting, I can't imagine it would ever be worth it.   

I think if they accomplished anything, then they were productive -- just by the definition of productive.  The riots produced results in terms of community policing.  

Was it worth it?  I suppose to the people that were getting beaten and harassed by the LAPD under Gates, those changes were worth it.  I suppose to people who lost their business, it wasn't worth it.

[Negritude]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 10:29 PM, psychoticstate said:

I couldn't agree more.  I find the beating done to Rodney King reprehensible and disgusting; the not guilty verdicts were a disgrace.  However, suggesting that the LA community had no alternative and what else did we expect them to do is a cop out IMO.  Reginald Denny, the truck driver who was nearly beaten to death, had nothing to do with it and shouldn't have been a victim to pacify enraged citizens.  Would the Goldman family get a pass if they had burned down Brentwood after the criminal verdict?  It's really no different.

I do remember hearing and reading about the Marcus Allen alleged affair.  As far as why Allen hasn't come clean, I think back in 94 he was scared of Simpson.  If Simpson would nearly decapitate the woman he claimed to love so much, what would he do to someone he had a competitive "frenemy" type relationship with?  

That said, I am very impressed with this documentary.  It's very well done and shows many facets of Simpson.

White folks (and some POC) who riot when their team wins a championship, or white students who riot at a pumpkin festival, or white Europeans who riot over football (soccer), completely understandable. Black people taking to the streets in anger when members of our communities, some of which are children, are beaten and killed, unarmed and on tape while the perpetrators are set free...hmmm just don't get it <insert sarcasm>. Not saying that the previous poster excuses the aforementioned behavior, I just find it interesting when these types of racial unrests are criticized while others are not, at least not in the same manner. And I get that this discussion is related to the events in this documentary, its just a pet peeve of mine. BTW I actually would've given the Goldman family a pass if they had "set fire to the rain" after that farce of a trial and verdict. But that's just me. End rant. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Negritude

[txhorns79]

Quote

Black people taking to the streets in anger when members of our communities, some of which are children, are beaten and killed, unarmed and on tape while the perpetrators are set free...hmmm just don't get it <insert sarcasm>.

In terms of the LA Riots, it wasn't just people taking to the streets in anger.  It was people burning down businesses, looting, committing assault, and simply engaging in violence.  I can understand the anger over that verdict, but I can't imagine ever justifying violence for the sake of violence. 

[Negritude]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In terms of the LA Riots, it wasn't just people taking to the streets in anger.  It was people burning down businesses, looting, committing assault, and simply engaging in violence.  I can understand the anger over that verdict, but I can't imagine ever justifying violence for the sake of violence. 

Not justifying anything. I'm from LA, I was 12 when it happened and had family members who were negatively impacted by lack of access to stores, getting to and from work and school, etc. My little cousins were toddlers and were terrified by what was going on around them. My aunts and uncle lived through the riots in '65 and '92. My issue is when people "don't understand" why these things happen. You stated in your post that you do, so we agree on that.

[txhorns79]

Quote

My issue is when people "don't understand" why these things happen. You stated in your post that you do, so we agree on that.

I understand why people become angry.  I don't understand why that anger has to be funneled into violence and crime that only ends up destroying a community.  

[nowandlater]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:17 PM, mojoween said:

One thing they didn't touch on in this part was that the riots really beat the shit out of Asian-owned businesses and now I wonder if the grossly under-punished murder of that young girl had something to do with it.

I was in junior high school at the time of the L.A. riots, and Johnnie Cochran's law offices were across the street. For those familiar with L.A., Cochran's law offices were/are* at the corner of Highland and Wilshire, just a few miles above South Central.

(*The Cochran Group is still in the same location.)

There were a lot of Korean-American  students at my junior high. There were a lot of black students.

There was just a lot of immense dislike between blacks and Koreans because a lot of Koreans owned liquor stores in predominantly black neighborhoods and their was immense amount of racism.

I am half-Asian and half-white, yet I looked Latino as a teenager. And whenever I walked into Korean-owned 7-Elevens, I'd get followed around. They'd ask to check my pockets. I'd always be accused of stealing. Quite honestly, at the time I felt a certain kind of satisfaction seeing the scared Korean store owners with their guns.

The dislike between Korean store owners and blacks was portrayed in Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing?

Edited June 19, 2016 by nowandlater

[mansonlamps]

On 6/18/2016 at 2:40 PM, txhorns79 said:

In terms of the LA Riots, it wasn't just people taking to the streets in anger.  It was people burning down businesses, looting, committing assault, and simply engaging in violence.  I can understand the anger over that verdict, but I can't imagine ever justifying violence for the sake of violence. 

I haven't seen it mentioned here about the 50+ deaths and 2,000+ injuries also caused by the riots, aside from the arson and looting.  I don't see how that can be justified at all.

[GreatKazu]

On 6/15/2016 at 6:46 AM, Giant Misfit said:

 

 

 

Good - her past is totally irrelevant to not only this filmmaker's thesis, but to the crime itself. This documentary is called, "OJ: Made in America." It is attempting to put OJ, his crimes, his trial, and his acquittal into historical context. Nicole could have been a druggie, a hooker, a whatever one wants, none of that matters. She was a human being who became an innocent murder victim. That's the only thing of importance here.

Right.

Should we know about Latasha Harlins's short past? 

On 6/16/2016 at 8:21 AM, poeticlicensed said:

It's amazing to think that someone actually brought a video camera to shoot the King beating. Back then video cameras were monsters, I had one and it was so big I had to carry it on my shoulder. What has changed in the conversation today is the fact that everyone has a video camera in their phone. So when police would try to spin the story of the black man with a weapon coming at them, many times the video that comes forth belies their story. 

Goerge. Holliday  filmed that footage from his bedroom window. I believe he shot it from the second story of his apartment or home.

Edited June 21, 2016 by GreatKazu

[Margherita Erdman]

On June 15, 2016 at 4:59 AM, smiley13 said:

I wish they would have spent more time discussing the background of OJ and not the misdeeds of the LAPD.

IMO, what makes this series worth 10 hours of viewing and elevates it from biopic or narrow genre true crime doc to epic American tragedy is precisely the wider socio-historical context provided, and portrayed so seamlessly along with  the specific saga of O.J. Himself, taking full advantage of the long-format TV doc medium.

On June 15, 2016 at 4:28 AM, Giant Misfit said:

And it goes without saying that Daryl Gates was garbage of the lowest kind.

I agree, but the point that Gil Garcetti makes so well in one of his interview clips is that Gates was a hero to many, and not just his own officers. While folks in the Valley, the Westside, and establishment leaders throughout the city were incredibly grateful to him for maintaining order and making them feel safe in the era of the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Black Panthers, etc. He inherited the mantle of William Parker and brought the LAPD and its traditional harassment of minority communities into a new, more modern iteration. And he invented SWAT — a model in use and emulated pretty much everywhere still. The advent of SWAT also powerfully institutionalized the LAPD as a paramilitary organization.

All of which arguably made him more dangerous as a racist SOB who protected even more racist and violent SOBs on the force, because he did have so much political capital and influence and wide popularity. It made him almost untouchable until Rodney King.

On June 15, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Giant Misfit said:

This documentary is called, "OJ: Made in America." It is attempting to put OJ, his crimes, his trial, and his acquittal into historical context. Nicole could have been a druggie, a hooker, a whatever one wants, none of that matters. She was a human being who became an innocent murder victim. That's the only thing of importance here.

Agreed, but I do feel a central conflict is weirdly absent from the documentary (or only very glancingly touched upon as personified by Marcia Clark contending with the instinctive dislike of many jurors for both Nicole and for her) that made the whole mess even uglier, and was very much debated and discussed (sometimes in very nasty terms) at the time: the intersection, or outright collision, of the issues of race and gender in America. So much concern for whether a black defendant could get justice — but there was also concern for whether a battered woman victim could get justice — most especially a beautiful, sexy woman victim whose whole "value" as a person, to herself and to the world, was wrapped up in those qualities. Layer upon that the prosecution's case that uncomfortably evokes the poisonous archetype of the predatory black man stealing the vulnerable white woman, and the whole situation was (and remains, I suppose) such a thicket of nastiness that anything seems possible in terms of what any given human being might bring to the situation in terms of personal experience or bias.

On June 15, 2016 at 8:05 AM, delicatecutter said:

Yes none of what [Nicole] did makes her any less of a victim of a horrible crime. But I see her as somewhat complicit in these games she and OJ played.

Sure, every relationship and family is a dynamic in which all members participate. That doesn't mean everyone has the same amount or kind of power. O.J. had money, influence, and physical domination, and he had been the most important person in Nicole's life since she was barely a legal adult.

Not to mention, we're once again committing that terrible oversight of leaving Ron Goldman out as if he wasn't just as much a victim of this crime and just as worthy of mention, mourning, and justice.

On June 15, 2016 at 8:13 AM, RCharter said:

I don't think it was logical.....it was emotional, but the emotions are understandable.  Years and years of abuse and being told that no matter what, the police are always right, the system is always right, and you are always wrong, and you should always just be put down and debased and you should just take it with a smile....and you better not say anything about it, because you're at fault for even complaining about abusive treatment.

Just a note about this comment — even though it's about the 1992 public unrest, I am struck by how it could apply just as easily to Nicole finally being fed up and ending her marriage for good — which, not for nothing, is always the most dangerous time for the victim in a domestic violence situation — something I think is much more generally known now than 20 years ago.

On June 15, 2016 at 7:02 AM, PreviouslyTV said:

'Part 2' uses the passing of years and screentime minutes to retell old stories.

View the full article

Quote

 

Edelman turns to the history of Simpson and Nicole Brown's marriage and the increasing violence and power imbalance in that relationship. Here again, Edelman does not package the 911 calls as safely as we may have gotten used to; they're allowed to play out, and to settle upon us the intransigent cluelessness of dispatch ("it's kinda busy in that division right now") and the irrational raging of Simpson. Made In America also spends more time with Nicole herself than any "O.J. case" property has, and it's the first real, dimensioned sense of her and what she was like, versus what she did and had done to her, that I've gotten. Many commentators and family members have lamented all along that Nicole and Ron Goldman themselves always disappear from the case somehow; their frustration about that is perfectly understandable, bust mostly irremediable, because the Catch-22 of the story of a murder case is that it begins where the story of the person killed has ended.

Edelman has more running time to play with, more room to interview friends and sisters and ex-boyfriends, and to show Nicole's journal, her flinty accounting of Simpson's abuse rendered in study-hall-note bubble script, her winning awkwardness at talking to babies. She always had the right hair. You can think what you want about l'affaire Marcus Allen, but if it did happen and if it did proceed from a vengeful desire to grudge-fuck Simpson into madness, that is just the combination of warrior spirit and petty point-scoring I enjoy, and I think I would have liked her. Edelman gives us time to recognize Nicole as a woman we know, a friend we've had or might meet, not merely a crumpled body or a cardboard saint in an '80s flip. Clock the footage from that karaoke night, Simpson drinking tequila and blathering to the camera; Nicole is off to the left, a trifle shy, happy that Simpson is happy, apprehensive about the Patron dime he might turn on later. Her Angela Chase-y little waltz step in and out of frame...there she is, herself. Breaks your heart.

 

Thank you Sarah for pointing this out. I think you're right that this is the first time I've seen Nicole so humanized, neither beatified as the perfect wife and mother nor condemned as druggie or whore. It is just the right note, since so much of the documentary is dedicated to demonstrating how enormous a persona O.J. was, that he eclipsed everyone and everything around him.

On June 15, 2016 at 8:06 AM, angelamh66 said:

I also found Fuhrman's presence to be jarring, especially with no lead-in.

[snip]...I will never understand the rioting, here or in any other similar instance. I do understand being so pissed off that you feel violent and like nothing would feel better than to act on that violence, but in this type of scenario doesn't it just give those that want to paint people of color in a certain violent and lawless light more ammo to do so? And I will never understand how beating a white truck driver nearly to death accomplishes anything for the cause.

I think it's brilliant that Fuhrman be present and horrifying yet appropriate that he appears completely unreconstructed and un-self-aware, still. Seems like the filmmaker made the choice to just let him be his own repellent self and let the thing speak for itself.

On June 15, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Kbilly said:

It absolutely broke my heart to see Nicole's repeated evidence of beatings, of OJ's friends saying they knew he "beat the hell out her" and that totally disgusting interview with Roy Firestone where they make light of and excuse his arrest for beating Nicole, OJ smiling and laughing and Firestone telling him "You bounce back from something like this". !!!!! Made me think--are we still doing this today? In light of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard situation?

You bet we are! Look at the support offered to that football player a while back captured on video beating hell out of his wife (fiancé?).

On June 17, 2016 at 0:33 AM, Pollock said:

When the reward for taking (mostly) the high road for decades and turning the other cheek so often is humiliation upon humiliation upon further humiliation, it should be no surprise that at the end of the story, the moutain gave birth to a volcano. The first and second episodes did a good job showing the boiling pot. All I could think about was those rejoicing screams at the OJ verdict and I began to get why they were going to happen.

This series is a lot to take in on the racial front and after that on the abused women one, it became physically painful for me to watch. The silence about both of those issues was astounding. The other officers watching that man being beaten, friends and family watching Nicole being beaten. And nobody said anything. Nobody intervened. Doing nothing is an active gesture at the end of the day, and the series demonstrated it further. Those "micro-silences" really mirrored the things we choose to ignore as a society.

The documentary is so well done to capture his personality that I was rooting for young OJ. It conveyed really well his charm. I can't reconcile the hard working, mother loving, funny, generous, intelligent, eager to learn guy and the psycho who murdered two people, who almost decapitated the mother of his children while they were asleep, just left her on the frontdoor staircase for them to find and who butchered some random man who was just here at the wrong place and time. At the end of this episode, three hours in, I couldn't believe what was "about to happen". I mean, I know it, I've seen it in the news, I've seen American crime Story, I've read everything the forum talked about the case, I've read wikipedia, and still, I root for him and wish the story is going to change somehow. He's gonna be innocent. Nicole and Ron are still alive and well. Nicole's photograph carrer is florishing ; Ron's restaurant is a success. All of this was a bad joke, just a tv show. OJ is a productive member of the society and the role model he was destined to be. So sad. 

This is so well-stated, all of it. Sadly all of this feels very current still, the racial politics, the tolerance of and excuses made for domestic violence by popular celebrities, the desire for public heroes so strong we're willing to overlook almost anything.

On June 17, 2016 at 0:54 AM, RCharter said:

I understand people saying that rioting was illogical, and it probably was, but I understand it.  And honestly, I'm not sure what their other avenues were.  When the community sought justice, they were told that the cops can't be held liable for beating a man on video and that those same cops would go right back to policing their communities, they were told that a woman can shoot a 15 year old girl in the back of the head over orange juice and get probation.  The community tried going the legal route and were stymied over and over and over again.  

Your unique point of view makes me think that the rioting was not only a black eye to LA in the eyes of the nation, but to the eyes of the world.  And that may be part of the reason why so many changes were made following the OJ verdict and the riots.

Let's remember that while the unrest/rioting had an enormous impact on the city and had tremendous news value, it was a very tiny sliver of the community who was out there committing criminal acts, and even fewer of those committing violent acts. Most people living there were appalled also and devastated to be left picking up the pieces.

Also, sadly, while there were many calls for reform and for changes to be made (the high-profile Christopher Commission comes to mind), very little actual change occurred until years later, with the Rampart scandal and then William Bratton bringing his brand of policing to Los Angeles.

On June 17, 2016 at 9:38 AM, reggiejax said:

[snip]...nothing Clark has said in this doc has changed my mind one bit about how truly and colossally she fucked up.

I have always felt that Clark was really good at what she was really good at, but that she was unaware of her blind spots, and was unwilling and unable to adjust to this completely unprecedented situation. Ironically, I think she personally thought she could be as free of racial baggage as O.J. always thought he could be, and that was disastrous.

On June 17, 2016 at 0:17 PM, mojoween said:

...the riots really beat the shit out of Asian-owned businesses and now I wonder if the grossly under-punished murder of that young girl had something to do with it.

Absolutely. The Latasha Harlins murder and the 1992 unrest cracked open the already-volatile fault lines between the African-American and Korean-American communities (specifically Korean-American, since Koreatown is adjacent to South LA, and it was Korean immigrants who had increasingly assumed ownership of liquor stores and other small businesses in South LA, since they were affordable to purchase). It has taken years of hard work by community activists to repair some of that damage.

[ridethemaverick]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 PM, absolutelyido said:

What I would like to know about was any prior violent behavior OJ had before Nicole. Was he violent with his first wife? Did he display fits of outrage with anyone else in his life? It would seem unlikely that he was only violent against Nicole, but that is all they have talked about.

I wanted to know more about his first marriage too. They glossed over the affair, OJ kicking her out of her home after the baby drowned, and any violence he might have displayed toward her. That seemed like an off choice to me.

OJ on those tapes was terrifying. I cant imagine being in the same vicinity as someone who is filled with so much rage and contempt for you. And it saddens me that Nicole really had nobody to turn to. Shipp, who I don't find as sympathetic as many of you, dropped the ball. He was an officer who knew her and had the resources to get her out of there but he did nothing.

Everyone in Nicole's life claimed to love her but nobody helped. 

P.s. I know the blame ultimately lies with OJ but all those missed opportunities to assist her really bothered me.

Edited June 22, 2016 by ridethemaverick

[ridethemaverick]

I keep reading posts about how pointless and terrible rioting is, etc. No offense, but I don't understand how people who are part of the majority group feel they have any sort of moral high ground as it relates to how POC respond to their oppressive actions. There's something in a famous text about getting the plank out of your own eye and I think that applies here.

On 6/17/2016 at 1:34 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Injuring innocent people makes no sense. Maybe they should have tried to burn down LAPD? In any case, 2 wrongs never make a right.

Sure they do. That's why we went to war after 9/11. Or is this one of those pesky double standards?

[DangerousMinds]

17 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

I keep reading posts about how pointless and terrible rioting is, etc. No offense, but I don't understand how people who are part of the majority group feel they have any sort of moral high ground as it relates to how POC respond to their oppressive actions. There's something in a famous text about getting the plank out of your own eye and I think that applies here.

Sure they do. That's why we went to war after 9/11. Or is this one of those pesky double standards?

I have always been against our post-9/11 wars. Not a double standard for me at all. We should never have been there.

[mansonlamps]

13 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

I keep reading posts about how pointless and terrible rioting is, etc. No offense, but I don't understand how people who are part of the majority group feel they have any sort of moral high ground as it relates to how POC respond to their oppressive actions. There's something in a famous text about getting the plank out of your own eye and I think that applies here.

Sure they do. That's why we went to war after 9/11. Or is this one of those pesky double standards?

Aside from the fact that anyone is allowed to have and express an opinion, you are making an assumption that all the people posting their disagreement with rioting are white which is not necessarily true.  In addition, it's likely the families of the scores of people killed and injured in the riots, most of whom are POC, might not take kindly to the response of  their neighbors either.