S06.E07: The Broken Man

[sacrebleu]

Quote

So disappointing to see Arya just strolling around town rather than running for her fucking life

I didn't read that scene as her strolling-- I saw it as her terrified. She's wounded, and she realizes that any face in the crowd could be masking the person trying to kill her. It's a little daunting to ask for help in that instance.

So many chess pieces moving into place this episode. Team Stark building an army. The seige at Riverrun. Arya trying to get back to Westeros. The confirmation that Margery is playing the long game.

I just wish I knew what was going on with the Sand Snakes (said no one, ever).

[sumiregusa]

Re: Sansa's Raven...

I guess I'm a little confused. Were we really not supposed to think she'd always reach back out to Littlefinger for support? She sent him off and we saw her do it. Story writing dictates that the situation would resolve itself by her undoing her "mistake" or however you want to put it. I never thought she WOULDN'T seek out Petyr's help. She only refused him because she wanted to wound him how she had been wounded and injure his pride. Also because show.

[benteen]

I know we've seen it before but I love the blue Tully scale armor.  It just looks awesome.

I haven't been a big fan of Show Blackfish but I definitely was last night.

[henripootel]

Quote

I didn't read that scene as her strolling-- I saw it as her terrified. She's wounded, and she realizes that any face in the crowd could be masking the person trying to kill her. It's a little daunting to ask for help in that instance.

Yeah, after she was stabbed.  I meant beforehand when she surely must have known that the Faceless Men weren't gonna let her just walk away.  Her lack of vigilance is what got her stabbed.  She seemed less worried than your average tourist in Bravos, tossing money around and hanging out where people can just walk up behind her.  I think this is what the Faceless Men call a 'gimme'. 

[stillshimpy]

By the way, in answer to the "Why would Margaery not have sex with Tommen? It would still give her leverage."  It's because she needed Tommen to tell the High Sparrow that they weren't getting it on, in order to further sell her "Oh, how I have changed.  That which motivated me no longer does! No desires here.  Nope."  

Basically she needed the High Sparrow to say "get it on" so she could go back to having leverage over Tommen, while continuing to sell her conversion. 

[RedHawk]

The problem with Sansa's handling of Littlefinger is that she won't tell Jon that Littlefinger offered the intelligence about Blackfish retaking Riverrun, and offered to help her/them with his army. Now she apparently still won't tell Jon (and Davos) that she is asking Littlefinger to bring his army, and making some kind of promise to him. I get that maybe Sansa feels she is in a world where she can trust no one, so she's going to trust only herself and somewhat slightly the man who at least got her safely out of Kings Landing, and although he gave her to Ramsay, has basically made her an offer she can't continue to refuse.

Edited June 6, 2016 by RedHawk

[stillshimpy]

So on the subject of Sansa writing to Robin/Petyr, the thing is that the people Sansa had convinced herself she could count upon and trust just threw her actions in her face as evidence of why they won't help her, also the actions of her dead brother.  Talisa, by the way?  Not a prostitute, folks.  I get that bandying around sexuality-shaming, gender-based slurs in the show is a way of underlining that Westeros is built on dragon bones and misogyny, but jeepers they really could have taken a pass on that one.   I guess not, because they wanted to show how ticked off Glover was.  

Anyway, having been freshly kicked in the chops on how wrongheaded her worldview is, including having her butt handed to her by a nine year old girl on how the world has changed in its expectations -- and how there are people within that world that don't consider beauty as that highly prized an accomplishment -- what quarter is left to her?  Absolutely everything Sansa was ever told about the world has been proven to be incorrect.   

Although I will howl like a Werewolf if this season ends with yet another marriage for Sansa (presumably to freaking Robyn).  

Something very clearly went wrong with the editing or script choices for Arya's story.  Last we saw her, she was crouched, awaiting the attack in the dark.  This episode she's throwing around bags of money in the open and the Waif got to her as she was, quite fucking literally sightseeing (girlfriend was gazing at a view, for goodness sake).  Wuh? 

Edited June 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Maximum Taco]

31 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

Re: Sansa's Raven...

I guess I'm a little confused. Were we really not supposed to think she'd always reach back out to Littlefinger for support? She sent him off and we saw her do it. Story writing dictates that the situation would resolve itself by her undoing her "mistake" or however you want to put it. I never thought she WOULDN'T seek out Petyr's help. She only refused him because she wanted to wound him how she had been wounded and injure his pride. Also because show.

Personally I keep going back to the annoyance of how it's even possible.

I guess Littlefinger told Sansa that he was at Moat Cailin, but ravens are trained to go to specific inhabited places. You have a raven for the Eyrie and it knows the way to the Eyrie and back to it's origin (I'm assuming they are Night's Watch ravens who would return to Castle Black.) You can't whisper to it "Find Petyr Baelish raven!" and expect it to go to him wherever he is. It's also doubtful they'd have one that knew it's way to a ruin like Moat Cailin, cause you'd never know if someone is there, it's a temporary encampment not a permanent residence. It would be like sending a letter in this day and age to an intersection and not an address. Also how can she be sure he's still at Moat Cailin? She told him she didn't want his help and to take off. How can she be sure that the Bolton's haven't retaken Moat Cailin? It's fortified against the south, but not impossible or even difficult to take from the North.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Dev F]

7 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

How can she be sure that the Bolton's haven't retaken Moat Cailin? It's fortified against the south, but not impossible or even difficult to take from the North.

There's no indication that the Boltons ever lost Moat Cailin, is there? Part of Littlefinger's plan was to make the Boltons think he was on their side so they'd let his troops into their territory unmolested, right? I assume that's how they got past the moat.

Of course, that doesn't explain how Sansa's raven is going to reach them. She certainly can't send it care of the Bolton forces. Maybe she'll send it to Lord Royce in the Vale and have him dispatch a rider? Or send it to Greywater Watch and have the Reeds sneak it to him?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Dev F

[Gertrude]

8 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Talisa, by the way?  Not a prostitute, folks.  I get that bandying around sexuality-shaming, gender-based slurs in the show is a way of underlining that Westeros is built on dragon bones and misogyny, but jeepers they really could have taken a pass on that one.   I guess not, because they wanted to show how ticked off Glover was. 

I understand your point and normally would agree with you, but in this particular case, I'm not that fussed about it. If I remember, most of us were not pleased with Talisa and specifically her being an anachronistic character. She was a woman moving freely in this world of men, unchaperoned and doing as she pleased. I can see why Glover would go there. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. But it is a world where ladies wouldn't think of acting this way, and men would view this behavior as shameful. Like I said, in this particular context, where marrying this woman brought down the North, I can see why Glover would resort to this type of insult. Doesn't make it right, but it is less objectionable that throwing it out there just because.

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Talisa, by the way?  Not a prostitute, folks.  I get that bandying around sexuality-shaming, gender-based slurs in the show is a way of underlining that Westeros is built on dragon bones and misogyny, but jeepers they really could have taken a pass on that one.   I guess not, because they wanted to show how ticked off Glover was.  

It's of a piece with Karstark's comments about Robb in Season 2: "Aye, [he went to the Crag], but not to negotiate...he brought that foreign bitch with him."

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Personally I keep going back to the annoyance of how it's even possible.

I guess Littlefinger told Sansa that he was at Moat Cailin, but ravens are trained to go to specific inhabited places. You have a raven for the Eyrie and it knows the way to the Eyrie and back to it's origin (I'm assuming they are Night's Watch ravens who would return to Castle Black.) You can't whisper to it "Find Petyr Baelish raven!" and expect it to go to him wherever he is. It's also doubtful they'd have one that knew it's way to a ruin like Moat Cailin, cause you'd never know if someone is there, it's a temporary encampment not a permanent residence. It would be like sending a letter in this day and age to an intersection and not an address. Also how can she be sure he's still at Moat Cailin? She told him she didn't want his help and to take off. How can she be sure that the Bolton's haven't retaken Moat Cailin? It's fortified against the south, but not impossible or even difficult to take from the North.

On that specific point, I don't have an issue.  Moat Cailin isn't regularly garrisoned, but when it is you want to be able to communicate with it.

And there's no way the Boltons retook Moat Cailin from the Valemen, who would massively outnumber them.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I understand your point and normally would agree with you, but in this particular case, I'm not that fussed about it. If I remember, most of us were not pleased with Talisa and specifically her being an anachronistic character. She was a woman moving freely in this world of men, unchaperoned and doing as she pleased. I can see why Glover would go there. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. But it is a world where ladies wouldn't think of acting this way, and men would view this behavior as shameful. Like I said, in this particular context, where marrying this woman brought down the North, I can see why Glover would resort to this type of insult. Doesn't make it right, but it is less objectionable that throwing it out there just because.

 

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

It's of a piece with Karstark's comments about Robb in Season 2: "Aye, [he went to the Crag], but not to negotiate...he brought that foreign bitch with him."

Robb breaking the pledge to marry a Frey cost all of the other houses greatly -- and it wasn't even to marry among them, but a foreigner who didn't comport with their customs.

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, jjjmoss said:

Well, even people I know who hate Sansa concede that Queen Sophie Turner is more talented than 2x Emmy nominee Emilia Clarke.

You said, and I quote "Sophie Turner is amazing and superior to the actors who've gotten Emmy noms from this program." Sorry, she is not. She is nowhere close Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey or Diana Rigg (all Emmy nominees and in a totally different league) and as much as I think Emilia Clarke is not that great, she is better. I'm sure Sophie Turner is a very nice and gracious girl in real life, but she is a limited actress who always delivers her lines much in the same way, be it bitching with her younger sister, listening to Cersei poor her soul out when they thought they were going to die, dealing with Joffrey, you name it. Six seasons later, she is still one of the weakest links in this cast, because while she got  better than she was in season 1, she didn't evolve as much as others inexperienced/young actors. Mind you, I've always thought that Kit Harrington was luck that brooding looks fit Jon's personality so well because it kind of hide his weakeness as an actor in season 1 , but even him became a much better actor. I don't see it with Sophie, and maybe they are saving her big acting scene for the moment she, I dunno, explode with Ramsay, say fuck it all to everything, but I doubt. Sorry, but raising an elegant eyebrow is not acting, see Emilia's worst scenes. Unless of course, you are Lena or, I dunno, can do more than the eyebrow raise, hence why Emilia is better.

[Keely]

I find Jon and Sansa's strike outs on those visits to be completely believable. Everyone seems to expect more of them just because they've grown up a little or changed. Diplomacy is an artform. It takes time to become a master at it. Reading a room takes a lot of experience. It is a skill the same as wielding a sword. Knowing how to craft your words just so is learned and often takes a lot of failures. At this level, few people are born to it natively.

Ultimately, Jon and Sansa remain little more than children. Children who have not been shown to be particularly clever - which reading situations and people well, requires. Jon is too damned earnest for clever and Sansa...is Sansa. Arya has been shown to be clever but not them. They aren't Margaery. They weren't shown how to play the game or work people from a young age because that isn't/wasn't what the Starks were about. Yeah Sansa watched the goings on at King's Landing but watching is very different than doing.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Keely

[Pachengala]

I must be the only one, but I assumed Sansa was writing to her uncle, the Blackfish. This new screenshot means I was wrong, but at the time it made sense.

[Maximum Taco]

8 minutes ago, Dev F said:

There's no indication that the Boltons ever lost Moat Cailin, is there? Part of Littlefinger's plan was to make the Boltons think he was on their side so they'd let his troops into their territory unmolested, right? I assume that's how they got past the moat.

Of course, that doesn't explain how Sansa's raven is going to reach them. She certainly can't send it care of the Bolton forces. Maybe she'll send it to Lord Royce in the Vale and have him dispatch a rider, or something?

I don't think so. You don't show up in another person's territory with a gigantic army. It would be like showing up to someone else's house with a loaded and drawn gun. If the Boltons knew that Littlefinger was in Northern lands with his entire army, without them asking for his aid, they would definitely suspect he was up to something against them.

The second scenario is possible but it would take way too long. For starters it's doubtful that the Night's Watch would have a raven to go specifically to Runestone (unless Ser Waymar had brought one all the way back in season 1 to send messages home), more likely they would need to send a message to the Eyrie, who would pass on the message (because they would have ravens to go to all of their sworn houses), and then a rider could be dispatched.

[Maximum Taco]

11 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

I must be the only one, but I assumed Sansa was writing to her uncle, the Blackfish. This new screenshot means I was wrong, but at the time it made sense.

I actually thought so too.

If she was writing to Littlefinger there's no reason to sign and seal the letter with the Stark sigil, she's (presumably) one of the only ones who knows he's at Moat Cailin. In fact it's a much better idea to not sign or seal it. I'd like to believe she'd be smart enough to send the message in some sort of code that would be difficult to decipher if the Boltons should intercept it.

She even already has an alias as Alayne.
 

Quote

Uncle,

I am sorry we quarreled. My brother and I will be at the family reunion in 5 days. We would be most happy to see you there as well to renew our family ties.

Alayne.

Perhaps I'm being too clever with that though and it's meant to be obvious.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Tikichick]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

I actually thought so too.

If she was writing to Littlefinger there's no reason to sign and seal the letter with the Stark sigil, she's (presumably) one of the only ones who knows he's at Moat Cailin. In fact it's a much better idea to not sign or seal it. I'd like to believe she'd be smart enough to send the message in some sort of code that would be difficult to decipher if the Boltons should intercept it.

She even already has an alias as Alayne.
 

Perhaps I'm being too clever with that though and it's meant to be obvious.

There was definitely some significance to her affixing the Stark seal by the way it was filmed so prominently -- although where the seal was on the paper confused me.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

 I can see why Glover would go there. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. But it is a world where ladies wouldn't think of acting this way, and men would view this behavior as shameful. Like I said, in this particular context, where marrying this woman brought down the North, I can see why Glover would resort to this type of insult. Doesn't make it right, but it is less objectionable that throwing it out there just because.

Emphasis mine. Which is why I said that I guess it was because they wanted to show how ticked off Glover was.  I think it was also to underline for Sansa why the Stark name lost its meaning and to send her back to Littlefinger/Robyn having given a reason why she would view them as the only option available to her.   I personally make a lot of effort to take a pass on using gendered insults * -- hence my emphasis on your quote -- though and it's my least favorite part of this show that it continues to lob them out as being acceptable ways to describe women who are not actually sex workers.  Yes, Talisa's character was an anachronistic for the world as outlined by Martin -- and the show by the way -- so having her wander around without a bodyguard was fairly ludicrous. 

Glover insulting Talisa and Robb makes sense.  Viewers repeating is actually why I object to it though, it just keeps it out there as a way to describe a character that is disliked.  It's a problem in that, hey, disliking a character who is female is one thing, that's disliking an individual or characterization.  Wedding that to terms related to gender is a bigger problem for the world in general. 

Now admittedly, there's a lot of reason to dislike the writer's inclusion of Talisa instead of Jeyne.  It takes Robb decision into the purely selfish realm and seemingly justifies the actions (or lack thereof) for the Northern Lords deciding "Fuck all things Stark, look at the mess y'all got us into" .  It's not a plot choice that I particularly care for because it does justify -- or come close to justifying -- someone saying, "Oh sure, we were your loyal bannermen for 1000 years, but your brother purposefully and willfully broke his word for no other reason than wanting to....so we thought we'd just play through on that as an acceptable move, missy.".   

It really has been the story decision that just decimated the North Remembering being worth fuck-overall and that's the reason I dislike it.  

Admittedly, Book Robb was almost a pure martyr so I understand why they wanted to grey up his character a tiny bit, but man, the ripples from it have sucked.  

By the way, whereas it was great to see Blackfish acting more like book Blackfish and less like "Greatjon swallowed Blackfish and this was the result!" poor freaking Tobias Menzies.  His scripts for this season have consisted of "Stand mutely, covered in what will pass for shit and have a series of reaction shots to people insulting you....and your last living relative being okay with your murder....then you'll be saved by the Kingslayer....and get to react mutely to that too."  

Menzies did a good job and all, but I did get a giggle out of it.  "Do you need me to run lines with....you know what, never mind!"  

 * Just my personal choice in the spirit of "be the change" and all that.  

Edited June 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Raachel2008]

18 minutes ago, Keely said:

I find Jon and Sansa's strike outs on those visits to be completely believable. Everyone seems to expect more of them just because they've grown up a little or changed. Diplomacy is an artform. It takes time to become a master at it. Reading a room takes a lot of experience. It is a skill the same as wielding a sword. Knowing how to craft your words just so is learned and often takes a lot of failures. At this level, few people are born to it natively.

Ultimately, Jon and Sansa remain little more than children. Children who have not been shown to be particularly clever - which reading situations and people well, requires. Jon is too damned earnest for clever and Sansa...is Sansa. Arya has been shown to be clever but not them. They aren't Margaery. They weren't shown how to play the game or work people from a young age because that isn't/wasn't what the Starks were about. Yeah Sansa watched the goings on at King's Landing but watching is very different than doing.

But the problem is not their lack of diplomatic experience, but their lack of arguments. The North Remembers can only go so far, and those two, specially Sansa, who has been privy to how politics work, had no arguments. Hell, yeah, my brother married a foreign bitch, but I'm Sansa Stark, I'm a Stark, I'm a Tully and I will fix whatever  wrongs my older brother did, yeah, you guys don't want to remember, but I'm Jon Snow, I've been to the other side of the Wall, I know what is coming, I'm a crow, trust me, yeah, you guys pledge alliance to Ramsay, but you were once tied to our father, and you cannot think for a second that being with that sociopath who already killed North lords is safer than teaming with us. Jon was better at convincing the wildlings and trying to convince his brothers about the wildlings, so how come he can not be at least incisive about what he wants? Being ressurected kills your spirit, too? And Sansa, who is the one who actually has been to King's Landing, and know how messed up things are down South, couldn't argue why the North needs to be united? It is all so contrived, no matter how you look at that, and it is just make it much more obvious that is all a plot drive scheme: make those two look much stupider and more limited than they actually are, their plight much darker, so Sansa has to call LittleFinger, while it would have been a much better plot if Sansa had confided in Jon, and both had decided to use LittleFingler only to be used by him.

[ChromaKelly]

10 hours ago, Goatherd said:

Why didn't Jon show his sword, Longclaw, to Lady Mormont as a sign of the faith that the Old Bear put in him? Or did Jon end up leaving the sword behind?

Right? I was like Hey Jon, you have House Mormont's Valryian steel sword that was entrusted to you by the former head of the house. Umm... let's show it? Might get you an in.

[GrailKing]

With the blown up letter, I really want to find out who Sansa's VO in a prior promo is to.

[stillshimpy]

On the subject of Jon showing Longclaw to Tiny Lady Mormont, I think Longclaw is at the wall, but even if he has Longclaw with him, I'm fairly certain that wouldn't stand as a mark in his favor, you know? 

Jon:  Look, I have your ancestral sword! Your Uncle gave it to me because he had such faith in me! 

Lady Mormont:  And then you were slaughtered by your own men and brought back to life, at which point, you left The Watch, no?  So...you're also an Oathbreaker.  Let me tell you my thoughts on Robb....

 

I think Jon left the sword at The Wall with Ed.  It's just there would be a few reasons it wouldn't make the best honor calling card. None of which would be Jon's fault, but still. 

I do sort of feel like the Show is pulling its regularly scheduled trick of including a heartwarming scene ("You are the Princess Shireen and I love you....." Burn-baby-burn is how that turned out) so as to up-the-suck of what is to come.  So we get a great, unified Stark reunion with warmth aplenty and "It is us against the world...." and that can't even withstand the withering disdain of the (awesomely fierce) little girl.  

If that's as bad as the "be prepared to pay the emotion piper for every ounce of goodwill with tears and recriminations tenfold" toll ends up being, okay, but I keep bracing for the blow to follow that kiss. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Lady Iris]

Can Arya Stark please catch a break? Pretty pretty please? Can't she and Needle just get home and put all this faceless vigilante crap and that Waif bitchjerk behind her? Srsly, this kid needs a break.

[mac123x]

I think I'm coming around to the idea that Marge doesn't have much more of a plan than "survive, play along to get more freedom of movement, and work things from there".  In a way, she's basically in Sansa's position after Ned's execution:  stuck amongst enemies in Kings Landing, behaving how they want her to behave just to survive.  The High Sparrow isn't as obviously sadistic as Joffrey, but just as dangerous.  Marge, hopefully, will be more adept and less passive than Sansa.

 

Regarding Arya's stomach wound:  I initially guessed it was a set-up, that she had armor underneath her clothes and a bag full of fake blood.  I thought this would be a payoff to her time with the Mummers, and that she was faking her own death to make her escape easier.  When she went into the water and didn't resurface, I was convinced that was the case.  Then she lurched out of the canal bleeding, and I thought "oh this is stupid."  She shouldn't survive that kind of injury unless she gets some magical intervention.

[Keely]

28 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But the problem is not their lack of diplomatic experience, but their lack of arguments. The North Remembers can only go so far, and those two, specially Sansa, who has been privy to how politics work, had no arguments. Hell, yeah, my brother married a foreign bitch, but I'm Sansa Stark, I'm a Stark, I'm a Tully and I will fix whatever  wrongs my older brother did, yeah, you guys don't want to remember, but I'm Jon Snow, I've been to the other side of the Wall, I know what is coming, I'm a crow, trust me, yeah, you guys pledge alliance to Ramsay, but you were once tied to our father, and you cannot think for a second that being with that sociopath who already killed North lords is safer than teaming with us. Jon was better at convincing the wildlings and trying to convince his brothers about the wildlings, so how come he can not be at least incisive about what he wants? Being ressurected kills your spirit, too? And Sansa, who is the one who actually has been to King's Landing, and know how messed up things are down South, couldn't argue why the North needs to be united? It is all so contrived, no matter how you look at that, and it is just make it much more obvious that is all a plot drive scheme: make those two look much stupider and more limited than they actually are, their plight much darker, so Sansa has to call LittleFinger, while it would have been a much better plot if Sansa had confided in Jon, and both had decided to use LittleFingler only to be used by him.

I would counter and say the problem with the arguments you presented is that they are just as bad. She's Sansa Stark? To me the response for saying she was a Stark was dead on: bully for her. At current (and when things are going tits up, people have a real short memory) what have the Stark's gotten them? Past loyalty aside, Rob went off the Stark name and righting the wrongs and all that. He failed and took a great many down with him. Jon convinced the Wildlings in part because they do know what is coming. The rest of the North dismisses it for the most part.

But beyond the arguments themselves why wouldn't they (when lacking real experience) use the arguments they think are the easy wins? The North Remembers. It's not a great argument but they thought it was the sure bet after a lifetime of hearing about loyalty, honor, the Stark house, etcetera. It would be nice if they'd immediately said yea but. It would be nice if they had ready counters waiting in their back pockets but the reality is both have been extremely removed from what the North thinks of them now. The smartest play of all would have been to ask around the area to see what the North actually thinks before approaching anyone and constructing their argument from there.

They didn't do that unfortunately. And I think they were both so caught off guard by the responses, neither had a good rebuttal. Ultimately they both screwed up. It happens, especially given the players. Maybe it's just me but I've never seen Sansa as particularly bright or good at verbal jousting and maneuvering. Same with Jon. Yes, there were better plays, no arguments there, but this feels pretty realistic to actual human nature and our failings. YMMV.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Keely

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

On the subject of Jon showing Longclaw to Tiny Lady Mormont, I think Longclaw is at the wall, but even if he has Longclaw with him, I'm fairly certain that wouldn't stand as a mark in his favor, you know? 

Jon:  Look, I have your ancestral sword! Your Uncle gave it to me because he had such faith in me! 

Lady Mormont:  And then you were slaughtered by your own men and brought back to life, at which point, you left The Watch, no?  So...you're also an Oathbreaker.  Let me tell you my thoughts on Robb....

 

I think Jon left the sword at The Wall with Ed.  It's just there would be a few reasons it wouldn't make the best honor calling card. None of which would be Jon's fault, but still. 

No he took it with him, The Door episode ~43:45 where Sansa gives him his new clothes and aftyer his line to Edd about knocking down the wall, it's on him.

[nksarmi]

Ok so here's the thing - I'm amazingly ok with how they are handling Jon and Sansa in the show for now.

I am not surprised that Jon knows how to talk to the wildlings better than the noble houses. He's still a bastard in his own head. That doesn't matter to wildlings. It does matter to noble houses of the North. He knows the dead are coming, he knows they have to unite the North and he can't do that with the Boltons in control, but he doesn't know how to inspire any more than he knew how to inspire the Night's Watch. And he probably won't be able to inspire anyone until he gets onto the field of battle. Jon is the opposite of Dany. Dany rides a dragon and gives great speeches. Jon can't talk for shit - he's probably more at home with the wildlings than any of the lords in his heart - he's isn't clever; he just does what needs to be done. Jon will only gain their respect through his deeds, but he has to get there first.

Sansa probably can inspire - at least I think she has it in her with some of the speeches she has given. But I don't think she can inspire without having a champion first. I say that because even if her words move them, their reaction will still be one of "why should we follow you into certain death?" Once Jon proves himself a champion, I think she can be his voice and inspire the realm.

The fact that Davos can inspire and appeal to those who would save the realm is no surprise. It was his idea for Stannis to go to the Wall to begin with. He can see the bigger picture like no one else. He will make a great Hand if Jon does rule (perhaps even better than Tyrion).

I don't even mind the North not being all "Team Broken Things." For all they know, Jon let the Wildlings south of the Wall and he hasn't offered up his reasons why (and they might not believe him when he does). But let the North get a glimpse of a few White Walkers and they will be all "well, Wildlings are kind of Northmen too - it's all the way you look at it really. We all have blood of the First Men and all that" faster than Littlefinger can use his transporter. However, until then, what can Jon do to rally them?

Right now, Jon and Sansa are a bastard Snow and the wife of the man they want to overthrow. Yes the Boltons are murderers and betrayers, but it seems as if the North doesn't really care who is sitting in Winterfell right now. At the moment, they seem to care about their own castles, people, and food supplies. And I'm not sure I blame them. It's one thing for them to want revenge against the Boltons and the Freys like they do in the books. But it's another thing entirely for them to put their full faith in the Stark name. They put their faith in Robb and he let them down - he left them vulnerable to the Iron Born, he broke a marriage pack that cost him the war, his mother freed a valuable hostage and rather than showing mercy - he executed a Karstark (while allowing his mother to live). Robb might have been great in battle, but when it comes to ruling - he rather sucked.

As a result, Jon and Sansa are in for an uphill battle and I find that very believable. I look forward to seeing the tide turn for them. When their victories come - it will be well earned.

Edited June 6, 2016 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Quote

 It would be nice if they had ready counters waiting in their back pockets but the reality is both have been extremely removed from what the North thinks of them now. The smartest play of all would have been to ask around the area to see what the North actually thinks before approaching anyone and constructing their argument from there.

So as awesome as the fierce Lady Mormont was, the other thing that bugged me in that scene was, apparently they are managing to trudge all over the North from ancestral home, to ancestral home (no small undertaking) which suggests at least some knowledge of where the hell they are bound, but neither had any idea about the sort of numbers they could expect from Bear Island.   

It made for a fairly amusing "We have won the loyalty and men of at least one Great House!  Honor still means something in this world! How many men can you offer?"  "Almost enough to raise a barn in a day! If you don't want a roof.  Or doors."   

Honor isn''t dead, but it is apparently woefully  understaffed.  Again, funny but also "Uh....how did guys not know that was going to be the answer?"  Did they walk in there expecting 2k but the losses Bear Island suffered are just staggering?  And again, you'd think that would have been news that spread.   

So it was a great and amusing scene and also made poor Jon and Sansa look like amateurs.  In Sansa's case, that's sort of fitting, but it isn't in Jon's case.  

Edited June 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, Keely said:

I would counter and say the problem with the arguments you presented is that they are just as bad. She's Sansa Stark? To me the response for saying she was a Stark was dead on: bully for her. At current (and when things are going tits up, people have a real short memory) what have the Stark's gotten them? Past loyalty aside, Rob went off the Stark name and righting the wrongs and all that. He failed and took a great many down with him. Jon convinced the Wildlings in part because they do know what is coming. The rest of the North dismisses it for the most part.

But beyond the arguments themselves why wouldn't they (when lacking real experience) use the arguments they think are the easy wins? The North Remembers. It's not a great argument but they thought it was the sure bet after a lifetime of hearing about loyalty, honor, the Stark house, etcetera. It would be nice if they'd immediately said yea but. It would be nice if they had ready counters waiting in their back pockets but the reality is both have been extremely removed from what the North thinks of them now. The smartest play of all would have been to ask around the area to see what the North actually thinks before approaching anyone and constructing their argument from there.

They didn't do that unfortunately. And I think they were both so caught off guard by the responses, neither had a good rebuttal. Ultimately they both screwed up. It happens, especially given the players. Maybe it's just me but I've never seen Sansa as particularly bright or good at verbal jousting and maneuvering. Same with Jon. Yes, there were better plays, no arguments there, but this feels pretty realistic to actual human nature and our failings. YMMV.

Maybe they are as bad, but they just didn't present them. Like you said, they didn't ask aroudn to see what the North actually thinks - or maybe they did and that was part of that meeting with Brienne and Davos - but my point is that they were both dumbed down and kept being smacked so Sansa would send the raven to LitteFinger. It would have been awesome to see Jon and Sansa (and Davos) coming up with argument after argument and having each one them crushed so LittleFinger really was the only option, but D&D chose the easiest way, IMO. 

[stillshimpy]

Quote

 It would have been awesome to see Jon and Sansa (and Davos) coming up with argument after argument and having each one them crushed so LittleFinger really was the only option, but D&D chose the easiest way, IMO.

Or not having them crushed, still coming up short on men and receiving word that Riverrun was surrounded by the Crown now, leaving them with no options.  It would have been interesting if it was a strategic "we have no choice" rather than a "we kind of look like we have no idea what we're actually doing....Hail Mary! Throw that pigskin with all your might!" play. 

On another subject, I too would like it if Arya could catch a friggin' break, but what I'd really like is for her story to stop treading water.  The Waif's a jackass of the first order, again, some more.  Arya tools around Bravos with a series of questionable hairstyle choices.  It's been going on for kind of a damned while and apparently there will be another installment next week. 

I also thought that Arya would have fake blood secreted about her person.  She was stabbed doing something incredibly "Guard, what guard?  I have no guard to keep up" silly.  She was practically feeding goldfish and acting like she'd never even heard of the concept of anyone being someone other than who they appeared to be.  Plus, we'd been treated to that seemingly endless play, featuring fake guts and it seemed like "Okay, that was where the seed of an idea came in....?"  

Clearly Arya's not going to croak and judging from the previews, she's not even going to be slowed down in any substantial capacity.  So more wheel-spinning?  Are we going to cut to some flashback style storytelling where we find out that Arya extinguished that candle, found the actress and formulated a "how to fake guts in a more realistic fashion" and then went out, tossing around gold and making kind of a big show of paying no attention to where she was?  

Edited June 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

[lovetowrite73]

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Maybe they could mention that the reason their families died at the Red Wedding was directly because of the traitorous Boltons?

Oh GOD, was I waiting for someone to say this last night! Just utterly ridiculous.

[Constantinople]

For all the guff people are giving Jon & Sansa over their diplomatic skills, Jaime is older than both of them combined and he was dumb enough to play the honor card and expect it to work

Quote

 

Jaime: But if you surrender, I'll spare the lives of your men. On my honor.

Blackfish: Your honor? Bargaining with oathbreakers is like building on quicksand.

 

Not only did it show a stunning lack of self-awareness on Jaime's part, it showed a stunning like of awareness of the nature of his guest right breaking Frey allies.

[Tryangle]

13 hours ago, mac123x said:

Yara being gay seemed like an unnecessary plot, unless she's going to marry Dany.  Speaking of whom:  no Meereen nor Dothraki Sea scenes adn they weren't missed.

Without even going into the Yara's sexuality bit, I think it was more tits for tits sake, the Volantis brothel situation. To be fair, I suspect Yara and Oberyn/Ellaria would have gotten along ok... but I think this was about Yara having sexual 'power' over someone, which isn't necessarily a sure thing if she was screwing a [male] shipmate or male prostitute (if they existed at that brothel).

Quote

This episode was awfully short..only 53 minutes. I always love when there is a new location in the credits. Have we ever seen Riverrun before? 

First, I hate short episodes. Come on, HBO. Secondly, Riverrun has been on the map at least once in the past, during S3 an episode or two before the Red Wedding.

Quote

Also, I must say, the Waif is the worst assassin ever. She had the drop on Arya and only managed to give her non fatal stomach wounds?

Jaqen: "Don't let her suffer"
Waif: [nods]
Waif: [thinks to self] Screw that crap. What's the most agonising pain I can give this wench taking up my master's time?

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, mac123x said:

Yara being gay seemed like an unnecessary plot, unless she's going to marry Dany.

Just think of her as VictariYaraMerryweather

[Alapaki]

I really want the Blackfish's voice.

Re: Maergery not putting out, I wasn't clear on where exactly she is living right now.  I got the impression that she was still living/confined to the Great Sept and that she was "allowed" to visit the Red Keep with Septa Ullenna as a chaperone.  If that's the case, she may be holding out trying to get Tommen to convince the High Sparrow to let her have an overnight conjugal visit.

And, by the way, about it not requiring "desire", only "patience"?  I'm pretty sure that with Tommen not much patience would be required; that kid's gotta be a two-pump-chump.

[Chris24601]

I wish Ramsey would just get on with it and kill Rickon so Jon and Sansa could be free. The Blackfish pretty much foreshadowed Rickon's fate when he pointed out that the Freys were going to kill Edmure no matter what he did. There is no way Jon and Sansa's forces can overtake Ramsey's men before he disposes of Rickon (but after losing so much already I find their inability to recognize that they will never see their brother alive again to be tragically understandable).

I'm pretty certain that if not for the need to rescue their brother, Jon and Sansa would just take Davos and the Wildlings, hop on the same Stannis ships that brought the Wildlings out of Hardhome and sail off as far south as south could go (stopping only to pick up Brienne/Pod and Sam/Gilly on the way... the Blackfish and Lady Mormont can come too).

I might feel bad about leaving Bran behind if he weren't most likely about to bring down the Wall and doom Westeros because of being marked by the Night King... but virtually everyone else at this point frankly deserves to be wiped out by blizzard/dragonfire.

A dramedy about the Free Folk learning to adapt to life on a tropical island while Jon and Sansa deal with their massive cases of PTSD* together would be just what the doctor ordered at this point.

*Yes, their plays this last episode weren't that great and they looked like deer caught in the headlights at times, but as someone who has seen PTSD first hand I'm frankly amazed they're upright and taking some type of action and not just huddled in a corner somewhere after what they've been through. The mind needs time to recovery from trauma and they've haven't even really had a chance to grieve for Ned, Robb and Cat and everyone they knew who was killed when the Ironborn took Winterfell yet, much less getting killed by people you trusted or spending time as an abused sex slave.

If the universe were at all a just one the epilogue to the series for Jon and Sansa would read "they returned to Winterfell, raised a family and nothing eventful happened to them for the rest of their long lives."

28 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

Maybe they could mention that the reason their families died at the Red Wedding was directly because of the traitorous Boltons?

The only issue there is that it was Roose who betrayed them at the Red Wedding; Ramsey was not involved. The current Lord of Winterfell is the man who killed Roose (no one seems to even be pretending to believe the story that he was poisoned by enemies) and then helped the Glovers retake their castle from the Ironborn.

54 minutes ago, mac123x said:

She shouldn't survive that kind of injury unless she gets some magical intervention.

[small voice] maybe she doesn't? [/small voice]

I don't LIKE to think it, but we do have face-stealers in the mix and Arya DID give the Waif the names of everyone on her list. Maybe its the duty of the Faceless Men to complete that contract because Ayra did end up paying her life for it?

My gut though tells me Arya will survive, but the price is probably going to be a messed up reproductive system that takes having children off the table for her endgame (i.e. no future Queen role for her... part of the reason I discount Dany too is that if she can't produce heirs its going to be chaos all over again once she dies... whoever the King/Queen end up being need to be able to produce heirs if there's going to be any future stability in Westeros).

She's totally going to team up with the Hound because vengeance will be all she has left.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Chris24601

[ElizaD]

3 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

As a result, Robb and Sansa are in for an uphill battle and I find that very believable. I look forward to seeing the tide turn for them. When their victories come - it will be well earned.

But their victories won't have been earned if this plot consists of the Starks being rejected by the majority of lords who prefer the house that arranged the slaughter of unarmed Northern soldiers from practically all the houses at the Red Wedding, Jon losing to Ramsay with his outnumbered army, and Littlefinger saving the day after he gets the letter where Sansa admits she must come crawling back to him. That's the depressing thing about this plot on the show: the tide won't turn, most of the North is choosing the Boltons, and Jon/Sansa are going to lose to the Boltons if they don't get the help of the man who betrayed Ned. This will be Littlefinger's victory and Jon/Sansa's defeat since it's being shown that the Starks can't hope to retake Winterfell without the Vale army that can override the wishes of the pro-Bolton majority through sheer force alone. Roose got Northern lords killed at the Red Wedding, Ramsay kills for sport, and it's working for them: the Boltons aren't being set up to be beaten by their own evil or the memory of Ned's years of good rulership or the skills of Jon/Sansa, but by Littlefinger's huge army.

After all these years I wanted a Stark victory, and instead I'm getting a rejection of their claim to Winterfell and a Littlefinger victory. When so many Northern lords hate the Starks, I don't know why Roose bothered with the Sansa marriage when he could have earned more points by inviting lords to watch Ramsay torture her to death and then offering his son's hand to one of their daughters. Jon should just take his followers, send warnings to the remaining houses that aren't yet openly pro-Bolton, and abandon the North to the White Walkers: let the Northern lords get what they want and face them under Ramsay's leadership, Jon is wasting his second life by risking it for these pro-serial killing/patricide assholes.

That's why I liked the Jaime/Blackfish and Cersei/Olenna scenes. The Blackfish might die and Olenna could end up being the last of her family, but their fates are less depressing because at least they got to go down fighting and tell their enemies how despicable they are instead of looking like passive idiots who only deserve our contempt and have nothing going for them except their name (and even that is Snow/Bolton rather than Stark, thanks to Jon's bastard birth and Sansa's raging stupidity).

[kittykat]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Boy, the writers of the show just hate the freaking Northern plot from the books apparently.  The North Remembers?  Not really, they can't even remember what happened at the freaking Red Wedding when their new liege lord had most of their men and many of their relatives slaughtered.  

This is just goofy, there should be houses that want to rise up against the Boltons, King's Landing and all of it.   Instead Jon and Sansa stand around, getting their butts handed to them, unable to think of a single response.  Nice of the show to include in the previously Sansa's assertion that they would be loyal to the Stark name...only to have that savaged by a little (fierce and awesome!) girl and Glover.   The poor doofs, the look on Sansa's face was painful, no wonder she likely sent a raven to Littlefinger.  

I feel your frustration shimpy.  I've been trying to justify the North "forgetting" by saying that they're still salty about Robb breaking his oath, which led to the RW and double frustration about the Ironborn invasion.  In those cases I get it.  I just wish that they would show House Manderly, who is a huge part of the books (I have my own theory about that but I'll take it to Speculation).  It seems the Wildlings are where most of these houses are drawing the line in helping.  

The problem is that the show strayed from the source material by not having hostages from the RW and various battles to keep the greater houses in check and not rising in rebellion.  But I'm resigned that Frey pigeon pies aren't going to happen.

I do sense that the theme this season is the waning influence of the "great" houses.  Baratheon and Martell are pretty much nothing, Tully and Arryn are hanging on by one or two weak lords (not you Brynden, we like you), Lannister and Tyrell may still be in power but are slowly being defeated by infighting, and Stark and Greyjoy are both scattered.  Calling the banners is not as noble or dutiful as it once was because it's just led to the little guys dying for the big guy's war.  

[Alapaki]

Also, while I loved seeing Cersei get her ass handed to her by the Queen of Thorns (whose delivery is awesome), that scene was a bit puzzling too.

It was as if the Sparrows were going to seek revenge on them for marching on the Great Sept by attacking the Red Keep.  But we already saw Tommen back at the Red Keep, with Kevan at his right hand, disposing of Jaime.  If there were to be any consequences to anyone else, then surely it would've been meted out then?  Is it realistically plausible for QoT and Cersei to not be safe as long as they're in the Red Keep? 

For that matter, why would Cersei feel the need to have FrankenGregor following her around within the Red Keep?

I mean, the previews for next week appear to show some sort of showdown between Cersei and a small band of Sparrows, led by Lancel.  So I guess it's headed that way.  But is that really plausible?  That apparent storyline makes no sense to me, but I guess I'll reserve judgment until I see how they play it out.

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, vibeology said:

I agree that Margarey doesn't have a plan exactly. I think she knew she needed to get out of that cell and that piety would get her closer to the High Sparrow and potentially give her power so she went with it. She advises Olenna to get out of dodge because the HS said something that freaked her out so she went with it. She's no got a Red Wedding like plan in the works; she' just a smart and saavy woman who has learned that its easier for her to get information if she's playing along with powerful men and information is one way for her to wield power.

As for not sleeping with Tommen I think she's withholding because she knows that's another way to gain power and because she wasn't sure how the High Sparrow would react if she did have sex with him. She didn't want to do anything that wasn't cleared by him because she didn't want to risk ending up in a cell again. Now that she's got the HS's permission, she's going to use that power over Tommen. As much as Septa Unella is a dear friend, I doubt she's going to join the royal couple in bed and that gives Margaery one place where she can influence the King without any of the Sparrows getting in her way.

I think the High Sparrow simply wanted Olenna gone.  His veiled threats were so obvious, and I'm now worried he was actually testing Margaery and she failed.  At least she was smart enough to simply give her grandmother a picture of a rose versus a warning.

About withholding sex - Most of Margaery's moves are strategic and politically savvy (putting Cersei in her place was a rare miscalculation).  I wonder if she's seen the writing on the wall, and doesn't want to take the chance of being pregnant when Tommen is killed or deposed.  After all, she has to be able to seduce the next king so she can be THE queen. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

She's totally going to team up with the Hound because vengeance will be all she has left.

But doesn't this get totally complicated if a reunited Arya & The Hound (which sounds like a 70's cop drama) run into the BwoB led by Stoneheart?  Whose revenge takes precedence then?

[mascan42]

With the re-introduction of the Brotherhood, it seems likely that the Hound will take Brienne's storyline from the books, and we'll finally get Lady Stoneheart by the end of the season.

[Sakura12]

49 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I also thought that Arya would have fake blood secreted about her person.  She was stabbed doing something incredibly "Guard, what guard?  I have no guard to keep up" silly.  She was practically feeding goldfish and acting like she'd never even heard of the concept of anyone being someone other than who they appeared to be.  Plus, we'd been treated to that seemingly endless play, featuring fake guts and it seemed like "Okay, that was where the seed of an idea came in....?"  

Clearly Arya's not going to croak and judging from the previews, she's not even going to be slowed down in any substantial capacity.  So more wheel-spinning?  Are we going to cut to some flashback style storytelling where we find out that Arya extinguished that candle, found the actress and formulated a "how to fake guts in a more realistic fashion" and then went out, tossing around gold and making kind of a big show of paying no attention to where she was?  

That would've been awesome if it was revealed that Arya had a pack of pigs blood under her clothes, which would  make next week's preview make more sense. Although even that would be a stretch with taking the chance that the Waif would stab in her the stomach instead of slashing her throat or doing both. That would've at least looked like Arya wasn't acting like she had nothing to worry about after ditching a group of faceless assassins. Since they way they showed she's like Jon and knows nothing. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Sakura12

[Avaleigh]

13 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I loved Lyanna Mormont!! Sucks that Lady Maege was killed but not surprised. Looks like all the Lords and Lady that marched south with Robb are dead now: Rickard Karstark, Greatjon Umber, Maege Mormont, and Galbart Glover. And Roose.

I liked all the stops in tonight's Northern recruitment campaign but hated the ending with Sansa badmouthing Davos and not confiding in Jon that if he just waits a while longer she can get the Vale army to march to WF. If she doesn't tell him about summoning LF and the Vale army before he marches to WF, I don't think I'll like this so-called "boss ass bitch" much longer. 

While it sucked seeing Robett Glover tell Team Stark to fuck off, I understand his reasoning. I was surprised to hear that the Boltons helped him take back his castle from the Iron Born.

I wasn't exactly impressed with Sansa in this episode. Her dismissive comments about Davos really irritated me. It means nothing to her that Davos was able to persuade Lyanna to stand with them. It was a significant achievement and it's not like Davos has control over how many men Bear Island has. Her attitude is 'Big deal, he got us House Mormont all he had to do was persuade a ten year old.' She acts like anyone could have done that but we saw how far Sansa got with that same ten year old. Sansa tries to flatter the girl and mentions how Lyanna was named after her aunt. Lyanna was unimpressed with Sansa's remark about her future beauty and treated it as though it were false flattery. She seems disconcerted when she realizes that Lyanna is no nonsense and basically has nothing to contribute to the conversation to help persuade Lyanna to stand with them. Even when she played her usual card by trotting out her name, Lyanna was like 'Eh, you're also a Bolton or maybe even a Lannister so the name game isn't going to fly with me.'

Sansa's inability to comprehend or even acknowledge that her family isn't blameless is another frustration for me. She has no sympathy for the Karstarks and thinks they should remain loyal simply because of her family name and because of the idea that Northerners are somehow more loyal than their Southron counterparts. Nevermind that two of the people Sansa is currently relying on aren't from the North (not counting her Tully relatives that she's also expecting help from or Davos whose loyalty she's already shown that she doesn't appreciate.) With the Glovers, her argument is that House Glover is sworn to House Stark. No argument about how her family has supported the Glovers during hard winter times or during some dispute or something like that. 

Davos at least understands the bigger picture and isn't trying to get support solely on name recognition. He isn't a northerner but he spoke to a proud northern house and gave them practical reasons for why they should offer their support. He made more headway than Sansa, the girl who was raised in the north, yet Sansa makes it seem like Davos is the one who doesn't know what he's doing? It's one thing for Sansa to have trust issues with Davos and to side eye him for his connection to Stannis and Melisandre because of what happened with Renly. That's fair enough. It's when she criticizes Davos for succeeding in an area where she failed (I don't think her efforts with Lyanna were successful), that made me roll my eyes.

Sansa also seems like she doesn't understand why House Stark is in the position it's currently in. When she's told about her brother's fuck ups, she seems like she thinks that the Glovers should just get over it. No acknowledgment that they have valid grievances but have bigger reasons for why they need to get past them. The same with the Karstarks. She doesn't seem interested at all in making arguments that talk about why it's a good thing to have the Starks back in charge. She doesn't bring up a time when House Stark supported the Mormonts, Glovers, or Karstarks. There are certainly examples though of these houses supporting the Starks for all the good it did them. 

Instead of giving reasons why it's a bad idea for the Boltons to be in charge (she knows better than anyone why they're the last people who should be running the North) she goes back to the same weak argument--follow my family because that's the way it's been for thousands of years. 

At least Jon and Davos are arguing about what's best for mankind.

[nksarmi]

18 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

But their victories won't have been earned if this plot consists of the Starks being rejected by the majority of lords who prefer the house that arranged the slaughter of unarmed Northern soldiers from practically all the houses at the Red Wedding, Jon losing to Ramsay with his outnumbered army, and Littlefinger saving the day after he gets the letter where Sansa admits she must come crawling back to him. That's the depressing thing about this plot on the show: the tide won't turn, most of the North is choosing the Boltons, and Jon/Sansa are going to lose to the Boltons if they don't get the help of the man who betrayed Ned. This will be Littlefinger's victory and Jon/Sansa's defeat since it's being shown that the Starks can't hope to retake Winterfell without the Vale army that can override the wishes of the pro-Bolton majority through sheer force alone. Roose got Northern lords killed at the Red Wedding, Ramsay kills for sport, and it's working for them: the Boltons aren't being set up to be beaten by their own evil or the memory of Ned's years of good rulership or the skills of Jon/Sansa, but by Littlefinger's huge army.

After all these years I wanted a Stark victory, and instead I'm getting a rejection of their claim to Winterfell and a Littlefinger victory. When so many Northern lords hate the Starks, I don't know why Roose bothered with the Sansa marriage when he could have earned more points by inviting lords to watch Ramsay torture her to death and then offering his son's hand to one of their daughters. Jon should just take his followers, send warnings to the remaining houses that aren't yet openly pro-Bolton, and abandon the North to the White Walkers: let the Northern lords get what they want and face them under Ramsay's leadership, Jon is wasting his second life by risking it for these pro-serial killing/patricide assholes.

That's why I liked the Jaime/Blackfish and Cersei/Olenna scenes. The Blackfish might die and Olenna could end up being the last of her family, but their fates are less depressing because at least they got to go down fighting and tell their enemies how despicable they are instead of looking like passive idiots who only deserve our contempt and have nothing going for them except their name (and even that is Snow/Bolton rather than Stark, thanks to Jon's bastard birth and Sansa's raging stupidity).

I don't believe Jon is going to lose persay. I think his rush to "go with the men they have" is about saving Rickon. Sansa has to play the only card she has - LF and the Vale. But this time - if the show plays it right - it won't be about LF saving Sansa. It will be Sansa saying "you owe me." LF will deliver because he's probably getting a constant stream of ravens and knows KL is a mess. I believe Jon will accept him because he has no reason not to but I don't think Sansa is going to need to over-promise to get his help.

If Sansa and Jon retake Winterfell, unite the North, and neither one of them has to promise something they don't want to in order to win that victory - I'd call that a win for the poor kids.

[benteen]

Quote

The problem is that the show strayed from the source material by not having hostages from the RW and various battles to keep the greater houses in check and not rising in rebellion.

Yes on the hostages.  This was exactly why House Umber (or at least half of them) were working with House Bolton in the books.  Hostages make a very big deal with it comes to loyalty.

I do wish thought that Sansa had more to say than playing the loyalty card.  I would have been fine if she and Jon had just hammered home the Bolton betrayal card.  That would have been enough.  Right now, the Manderlys are the only ones that can save the Northern storyline.

[rubyred]

Sansa's ineptitude at corralling the North reminded me forcibly, and unpleasantly, of her mother Catelyn, who was constantly hectoring people about supporting Starks/Tullys and even handwaved, to Karstark, the killing of his son so that she could barter to save her own kids. I hope she understands now that she needs to read the the room and have some empathy for the losses that the Stark bannermen have suffered, before she asks them to volunteer more lives.

Cersei/Olenna scene: delicious. The best part was seeing how enraging it was for Cersei, and also seeing that she knew it was true.

Cersei Wig Watch: still not great, but better styled.

I wish we'd gotten a reaction shot from Sansa about Wun Wun. Surely he's the first Giant she's ever seen.

Edmure had no lines! You are a good sport, Tobias Menzies.

Proof (to me) that TV writers are in charge: the fact that they reintroduced The Hound at this point, how they reintroduced the Hound (that massacre was telegraphed from minute one of that subplot), and the lame dialogue that allowed me to predict - out loud - that the Hound would say that what drove him was "hate." I don't know if it was from the books, but it was so obvious and hackneyed. (BTW I think the hate he was referring to was not towards Brienne; I think it's still all about The Mountain.)

So grateful to see Jaimie out of KL, bantering with Bronn and acting like Jaime of seasons past (soldier, leader of men). Blackfish was awesome, as I expected, again.

[ACW]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Something very clearly went wrong with the editing or script choices for Arya's story.  Last we saw her, she was crouched, awaiting the attack in the dark.  This episode she's throwing around bags of money in the open and the Waif got to her as she was, quite fucking literally sightseeing (girlfriend was gazing at a view, for goodness sake).  Wuh? 

It has to not really be Arya.  Body language, hairstyle, actions, theme music; it's A Man, not A Girl.  Don't know how he managed it.