S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[Alapaki]

So, are we to believe that seeing the play, being reminded of Cersei's bloodlust reminded Arya of her own, and that is what prompted her to give her two week's notice?

I'm wondering, narratively, what Arya really got out of her foray to Essos that she couldn't have learned for herself had she stayed in Westeros.  

[Avaleigh]

I'll admit it, I wish they'd given Gilly a better dress. I thought it was fairly hideous in comparison to all of the other dresses that we've seen on highborn women on this show. 

[TwistedandBored]

11 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I took it that Arya is waiting in the dark to kill the waif and then make her escape, though it just occurred to me that she could kill Little Miss Sunshine of the Faceless Men and that would buy her way into the assassin's cult on her own terms. Please no.

She could kill the waif but I don't think the Faceless Men would take her back now especially when they see her holding Needle. 

But, I do think her and the Waif would have one brutal fight. 

[Eyes High]

Bran and Meera were super cute this episode. Shipping it!

[Gertrude]

I think in the books, she does learn quite a lot in Braavos. Stuff she couldn't have learned on her own. The important things aren't how to kill, but to observe and how to act to blend in, etc. She also got in touch with her inner-warg (but yes, that could have happened anywhere). In the show it wasn't nearly as interesting, but that's to be expected. I'm wondering going forward on the show how she thinks she can escape them. Even if she does in the immediate future, it'a not like they're going to forget about her.

[J----av]

Allot of good this episode, but as usual everything Sam was terrible

[AuntieMame]

1 minute ago, TwistedandBored said:

She could kill the waif but I don't think the Faceless Men would take her back now especially when they see her holding Needle. 

But, I do think her and the Waif would have one brutal fight. 

I hope not. I don't hate the reading, but I always had mixed feelings about Arya as an anonymous assassin. Not that she doesn't have the rage and trauma but that even taking these into account Arya is always so much herself.

[J----av]

6 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

So, are we to believe that seeing the play, being reminded of Cersei's bloodlust reminded Arya of her own, and that is what prompted her to give her two week's notice?

I'm wondering, narratively, what Arya really got out of her foray to Essos that she couldn't have learned for herself had she stayed in Westeros.  

 The whole face switching thing?

[Knuckles]

 Jaime watching Tommen screw up a perfectly executed rescue op...you could read the disbelief and then the disappointment in his face...and then his acceptance. Tommen is such a soft, easily led weakling, as useless to House Lannister as his cruel and vicious brother, Joffrey. For this secret father, Jaime, what a profound sense of heartbreak he conveyed with just his facial expressions. And then to see the little milk-fed wonder dismiss him from the Kingsguard and exile him from the city...how incredibly demeaning a moment for him. Interesting that in his scene with Cersei, he confirmed that the world for him was just the two of them...he has abandoned any hope for this son. We seem to be watching the last days of the fall of the House Lannister.

Mace, the munchkin general in blue plumes, no less, does not disappoint. And Randall Tarly was as cruel a father as Craster...even Tywin had some shreads  of family loyalty to Tyrion, however much he resented him. 

Would still like to know if the Waif has any relationship to the Freys...I hope they don't leave that hanging. And since Arya now has Needle, time for some payback to said Waif.

And I agree, Dany's speech suggests that blood will tell...she is showing that mad dog Targaryen vibe...as Dario said, she is all in on the fighting not the ruling. It's conquest and a belated family revenge that drive her, not her lame attempts at justice. Of course she's with the Dothraki...she's closer to them in spirit than the mercenary Second Sons or the Unsullied.

[Minneapple]

No Jon or Sansa or Brienne/Tormund this week, but still a pretty good episode. Except for King's Landing, which still bores me to tears. Except for the part where the sparrow rolled his eyes at Jaime. Yes, I understand, Mr. Crazy Religious Fanatic. I frequently feel the need to roll my eyes at Jaime, who is boring as fuck.

The look on Margaery's face when Olenna showed up tells me she's not done yet and that her "conversion" might just be a con. I hope so anyway. Something save this goddamn King's Landing plot.

Wow, Randall Tarly is a dick! I guess we knew that from the books though. But I love Sam's mom and sister. I wish we could have seen his sister helping Gilly pick out a dress and helping her get ready.

Well, yay for Uncle Benjen and his saving of Bran and Meera. I really want Jon to see Benjen again. Also I'm totes here for the Beera ship. Breera? Meeran? Someone help me out here.

The dragon is some impressive CGI, but what the hell, Dany. Did you read ahead in the scripts and figure out that the Ironborn are bringing you ships? Because why the hell are you making a big speech to the Dothraki army about getting on the wooden horse if you don't have any wooden horses?

[Alapaki]

4 minutes ago, J----av said:

 The whole face switching thing?

But we don't know that she has that ability and, if so, she'd know how to use it on her own in Westeros apart from the House of the Undying, do we?

[Keely]

54 minutes ago, benteen said:

If Dany was a guy, I'd venture to say she was dick-swinging at the end.  She had the Dothraki loyalty at that point.  It felt more like a speech just for the sake of it.

She had their loyalty to a point but they also looked close to being out of the mountains. As a woman leading a large group of warrior men who haven't ever followed a woman before in their history, I'd call what she did less about dick-swinging and much more about making a point. Showing them Drogon and her command of him was a way to easily shore up any doubters and keep them in line.

Same thing with her speech. I know some people got a bad vibe from it but to me you have to consider who she is speaking to - something she's been shown as being very good at. Her speech to the Dothraki was much harder than it was to others. That doesn't necessarily mean she's going bad, mad or evil. It's all about knowing your audience and playing to it. They are a hard, warring people. Any speech she gives should be adjusted accordingly. You don't give the same rousing to arms speech to the peasantry of King's Landing as you do for the men of the Night's Watch and so it goes.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Keely
Typo

[FemmyV]

34 minutes ago, benteen said:

If Dany was a guy, I'd venture to say she was dick-swinging at the end.  She had the Dothraki loyalty at that point.  It felt more like a speech just for the sake of it.

Dany's a rock star. Except for the dragons, there are times when I think she's just offering people what they'd get at a Peter Gabriel show.

Edited May 30, 2016 by FemmyV

[that one guy]

24 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Mostly I was happy to see the Riverlands get attention

I was happy to hear that the Brotherhood is alive and well, and the insurrection is driving the Freys to distraction. The crown falling in with Hezbollah the Sparrows, and the Brotherhood/the Starks/team Dany all having Red Priest/Lord of Light connections, makes me fear that the endgame here may be a religious war between followers of the Faith of the Seven and followers of R'hollor. Certainly the High Sparrow is playing the Game at a very high level, and everyone, including me, underestimated him. Also? Jaime trying to attack the High Sparrow was the same crap he pulled in season 1, attacking Ned Stark in the streets for allegedly holding a family member hostage. He was wrong on both counts, and is getting off lightly here.

Quote

The dragon is some impressive CGI, but what the hell, Dany. Did you read ahead in the scripts and figure out that the Ironborn are bringing you ships? Because why the hell are you making a big speech to the Dothraki army about getting on the wooden horse if you don't have any wooden horses?

Remember, she hasn't seen Episode 1, and doesn't know yet that her fleet was burned by the Masters.

Edited May 30, 2016 by that one guy

[Ambrosefolly]

Got confused and put this post in the wrong thread.

Yeah Benjen! And Blackfish next week. I am so happy he is back and don't care that he is now Coldhands. This is one of the areas I think D&D are stronger than GRRM. GRRM can come up with these incredibly creative moments and threads, but I think D&D are good at streamlining storylines when it needs to be and not to meander like GRRM tends to do.

Unpopular opinion:I know that some now see Bran as being a dick, but as far as Dany is concern, I hope she gets a very rude awakening when she tries to send her armies and dragons to the North and meets the other being in the world that is touched by the Gods, only I think with Bran, the Gods are testing him and humbling him (he was unwittingly responsible for Hodor being Hodor, Hodor dying, Summer being killed, Jojen dying, the Children of Forest being wiped out as far as we know). Dany might be an even better conquer than Aegon and his sister wives, but I don't think she will be as good of a ruler as Jaehaerys. Yet it doesn't seem the Gods are trying to humble her like they do with everyone else, with her being fireproof (and that is the only reason the Dorthaki are following her, because they see she is favored by the Gods not some superior intelligence or fighting talent) and hatching petrified dragon eggs, not to mention being able to double cross anyone that has something she wants with no repercussion for her. 

[ParadoxLost]

Part of the problem with Dany's speech is that for the viewers it was redundant.  It was the Drogo promised blah blah blah speech.

But for the show, it was necessary because she killed all the Dothraki she gave the speech to a couple episodes ago.  So she did in fact need to tell the Dothraki what she expected of them.  And they needed to set that up before Tyrion comes into play.

That was a lot of the reason that it didn't work, because it was so blatantly setting up future episodes and didn't quite fit.

[lmsweb]

Just realized, according to next week's preview, we're getting House Mormont and House Glover with Sansa's trip 'round the North.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Keely said:

She had their loyalty to a point but they also looked close to being out of the mountains. As a woman leading a large group of warrior men who haven't ever followed a woman before in their history, I'd call what she did less about dick-swinging and much more about making a point. Showing them Drogon and her command of him was a way to easily shore up any doubters and keep them alive.

Same thing with her speech. I know some people got a bad vibe from it but to me you have to consider who she is speaking to - something she's been shown as being very good at. Her speech to the Dothraki was much harder than it was to others. That doesn't necessarily mean she's going bad, mad or evil. It's all about knowing your audience and playing to it. They are a hard, warring people. Any speech she gives should be adjusted accordingly. You don't give the same rousing to arms speech to the peasantry of King's Landing as you do for the men of the Night's Watch and so it goes.

Exactly. Dothraki are no different from any military dominated by men. They have no respect for women as leaders and balk at following them. They could have turned on her when things got tough, especially when she ordered them to go on the ships for the first time. Daenerys is perceptive enough to see potential trouble in this situation so she used Drogon to display the extent of her power and motivate them to obey her commands. If Jon had read the Night Watch correctly and taken the same approach, he would have been able to thwart Thorne's betrayal. 

It is interesting how many posters think that Daenerys is somehow mad when she is acting like a true leader. It shows how some people view powerful women vs. men.

Edited May 30, 2016 by SimoneS

[jjjmoss]

Erm, I really don't think people finding her speech dubious is a case of people being misogynists. 

[caviar]

This episode was clearly the type that sets up what´s to come instead of bringing in the action. I suppose it´s necessary and it made sense to place it all here after the heartbreak that was last week. I mean, for the first time ever: 

1) The Stark count goes up instead of down.

2) Nobody was killed. Nobody.

So, are Jamie and Brienne going to meet once more in the Riverlands?

[Eyes High]

29 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Dany's a rock star. Except for the dragons, there are times when I think she's just offering people what they'd get at a Peter Gabriel show.

This seemed more like a coach psyching up the team before a big game: the Dothraki equivalent of "clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose," if you will.

[Oscirus]

Quote

It is interesting how many posters think that Daenerys can go mad when she is acting like a true leader and motivating her followers. It shows how some people view powerful women vs. men.

If next week, jon delivers a similar speech to the soldiers he recruits while riding on the back of Ghost, I'll call him out same as Dany.

[Gertrude]

3 minutes ago, jjjmoss said:

Erm, I really don't think people finding her speech dubious is a case of people being misogynists. 

I don't think it's the speech in a vacuum. There have been a few comments here and more in other places that talk about Dany going mad ala Full Targ and point at things like this speech as being proof. Compare that to a man (specifically Drogo here) and no one would level accusations of madness at them. You could say that people thought Viserys was on the edge of madness as a comparison to Dany, but Viserys didn't have the resources that Dany has, so he seems more delusional. I won't argue whether that's misogyny or not, but I think that's where that comment was coming from.

[Maximum Taco]

37 minutes ago, J----av said:

 The whole face switching thing?

Are we sure that she can? I mean the only time she did it, she went blind. She clearly doesn't know how to use the faces safely.

[Oscirus]

Quote

don't think it's the speech in a vacuum. There have been a few comments here and more in other places that talk about Dany going mad ala Full Targ and point at things like this speech as being proof. Compare that to a man (specifically Drogo here) and no one would level accusations of madness at them.

People wouldn't say that about Drogo because he doesn't have a known crazy relative and he's not a pyromaniac.  Nobody's insulting the character, just saying that she's at the very least trending towards being an antagonist. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

[Ambrosefolly]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Exactly. Dothraki are no different from any military dominated by men. They have no respect for women as leaders and balk at following them. They could have turned on her when things got tough, especially when she ordered them to go on the ships for the first time. Daenerys is perceptiveness enough to see potential trouble in this situation so she used Drogon to display the extent of her power and motivate them to obey her commands. If Jon had read the Night Watch correctly and taken the same approach, he would have been able to thwart Thorne's betrayal. 

It is interesting how many posters think that Daenerys is somehow mad when she is acting like a true leader. It shows how some people view powerful women vs. men.

I don't think there would have be much Jon could do to thwart Thorne's coup of the Night's Watch.  According to show, he couldn't even see that it was Stannis that gave the order for the Wildings to come south of the Wall. No one thinks they should be ruler above her because no one else has command of dragons, unlike Throne that lost to be the Lord Commander by one vote. Dorreah on the show betrayed her as well and she killed her the same as Jon killed Thorne. Jon has given impassioned speeches to the Night's Watch and Wildings to get people on his side. He was compassionate to Ollie as he could be when he decided to let the Wildings in, but Ollie still betrayed him because his parent's brutal deaths were probably playing on repeat in his head. I wonder if any of those Khal's children will try to kill the lady that burned their daddy alive.

[Happy Harpy]

"Burn them all!" So getting hyped here.

Uncle Benjen definitely has the Badass Stark Warrior gene. Loved his fight, so cool. I hoped for him to come to the rescue and he did! Still cruising on the Lord Bran and Lady Meera Stark of Winterfell 2018 ship. I enjoy one more Stark while I can, because my poor Rickon...

What's worse, bad to the bone or moron to the bone? When I see Tommen, I'd tend to say the latter. Good job, show, I won't cry over him when he bites it. Margaery is playing a long game here but I wonder if she'll let anyone in on it. Olenna isn't happy, methinks that things are going to escalate quickly.

Jaime in the Riverlands, finally (now get Brienne there!). I want him free of Cersei. At least he doesn't do her dirty work anymore since she has the Mountain (ouch, "it's a trial by combat, I won't need you" did hurt him though) and does what he thinks is right -and in my book, going against religious nuts is right so I'm with him on this one. The rescue was Jaime's life in a nutshell imo, or at least a good illustration of his "career" in the King's Guard: Noble intentions, thwarted/messy execution , disillusion. About this, I hope that  his still overwhelming love for Cersei on the show is just a set-up for a complete, entire, utter disillusion with her when he learns of her indiscretion with Lancel. I know that Dirty Old Grand Pope won't resist destroying Jaime with it if given the opportunity but I wonder if he'll get it.

Randyll was the asshole I expected to meet, Dickon sports well the first four letters of his name. The whole point was to introduce Tarly Senior and for Sam to get Heartsbane, I guess, but I liked the first scene with his mother and sister, it was nice to see nice people. I wonder if the "Umber" mention was an Easter Egg or will reveal important later?

ARYA GOT NEEDLE BACK! I loved her scenes. I loved when she laughed at fake Joffrey's death, and the contrast with her emotion at seeing a mother's grief, even fake, even if it portrays the woman she hates the most. Loved her scene with Lady Crane (the eyebrows mention made me chuckle) and their kind of bonding (and foreshadowing: Will Arya leave Braavos for Westeros with the Mummers?). I'm so glad she didn't go through  with the murder of an innocent, and warned her on top of it. I do think Jaqen wished she succeeded but the FM are a cult so well...I can't wait for Her Smugness the Waif to be dead at Arya's hands. Go my baby!

So Littlefinger didn't lie about the Blackfish having taken back Riverrun. Interesting. Walder Frey, how nice to see you again just when my girl has gotten her vengeful mojo back. Perfect timing. Mention of the BWB. Can't wait for this one.

Dany was more emotional last week than I've seen her in a long time during her scene with Jorah, and she showed with the young Khaleesi that she can still bond with people the way she did with Missandei; so I didn't think that her speech foreshadowed that she was losing her mind Targ Way or lost the ability to empathize/sympathize. I agree that simply, she knows how to speak to the Dothraki. Kings or queens don't need to be good rulers themselves if they know how to delegate to people who are good at ruling (like, er...Varys and Tyrion, an example at random?) and if they listen to those people. Imo, with the importance of dragonglass and dragons vs the White Walkers (since it's been mentioned again in this episode) the most probable option for now is still that she's set for conquest but will end up fighting alongside whoever will be left of the Great House/Night's Watch.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[larapu2000]

I don't particularly like kids, but how has no one mentioned how cute that fat little baby Sam was?  I was glued to that fat round face every time he was onscreen.  

Arya + Needle is my OTP.  Sob.  

[gatopretoNYC]

29 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Are we sure that she can? I mean the only time she did it, she went blind. She clearly doesn't know how to use the faces safely.

Jaqen told her the faces are for no one. For someone, they are as good as poison. So she would not be able to use them, nor do I think she would want to. 

[benteen]

Actually, I think what annoys me about Sam taking Heartsbane is that it seemed like a scene you would always see on television, like the teenager taking his father's car to piss him off and it so doesn't work in the world of Game of Thrones.  Sam's not going to get within a league of getting away with that and what would happen in "real life" is Randyll would run him down and kill him for taking the sword. 

Taking Heartsbane completely reeked of a 1980s teen comedy and the writers seemed completely unable to avoid using that cliché.

EDIT: The ONLY thing I see saving Sam is that Randyll sure isn't going to let his men know that his "fat and useless" son stole his sword.  He'll likely keep that quiet.

Edited May 30, 2016 by benteen

[Oscirus]

I also forgot to mention they finally included the shits gold line so people can stop complaining about it not being there.

So what happens if Arya marked the wrong person as the attempted murderer?  She never actually verified that lady was the person who hired her. Quite the reckless thing to do.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Oscirus

[Constantinople]

It's been 53 episodes since Benjen last appeared.  That's likely to remain the GoT record unless Nymeria shows-up and even then Benjen would still hold the record for humanoid characters.

[BloatedGuppy]

The more this season dithers and spins its wheels, the more it seems like it's killing time waiting for George to get another book out. If it was the last book, that would make perfect sense, but as the penultimate novel isn't due out until 2027 I doubt the show can hold out that long.

The Good

• Some of the shots in the dark, in the woods, North of the Wall, were quite evocative. 
• Coldhands/Benjen finally makes an appearance, and seems to confirm a long held suspicion.
• The dinner at Horn Hill was actually quite well done. I believe some of the dialogue was either taken in full from the book, or adapted. The bloke playing Tarly got the tone right.

The OK

• Arya's scenes neither thrilled nor disappointed. Kind of a whimper for that novel-spanning story line to go out on, but I'm not sure anyone had the patience to watch her dueling with sticks or making grim pronouncements any more.
• Dragon CGI was a'ight. He's getting big.

The Terrible

• Pretty much everything in Kings Landing. That the High Sparrow storyline could culminate in Tommen siding with the Faith Militant is conceivable and would be kind of interesting if it had been handled with a whit of competency. The writing and acting was atrocious. I've been a supporter of Heady as Cersei but she's struggled this season, and Coster-Waldau doesn't know what the hell to do (and neither do his writers). Him being dispatched to the Riverlands to talk to the Blackfish will at least, hypothetically, give us one of the best exchanges from Book 4 (and possibly set up the long awaited return of the Brotherhood Without Banners plot).
• The ending of the Horn Hill/Sam sequence. When he was leaving, depressed, to become a Maester, and Gilly was going to start a new strange life in a hostile castle, it felt dour but also like meaningful sacrifices had been made. Nope! Sam's going to steal his Dad's sword, and they'll ride off into the sunset, because they're meant to be together! The show resembles an afternoon soap opera more with each passing year.
• Emilia Clarke delivers her 5,074th speech to an audience of 27 Dothraki extras and one sellsword. I can't wait to see next season's speech. The commentary about "1000 ships" also recalls the Kingsmoot, which is the most embarrassing sequence in GoT history and is now once again fresh in my memory.

I'll put it as plainly as I can. Even if you're a show fanatic who never read and do not care for the books, even if you thought seasons 4 and 5 were the cat's pajamas, love the excess and the special effects, and think the show is campy good fun. The quality of the writing on the show is teetering on disastrous. There was a show-written scene in season 1 between Robert and Cersei in which he lectures her on the Dothraki and "5 and 1", suggesting that a unified force will beat a larger, scattered one. It was a strong scene, and spoke true to their characters. All hint of that level of competence in writing has long fled. The dialogue is now cringeworthy. For every marginal, acceptable line there's at least three that have me squirming with disbelief. I'd find some other shows to compare it to, but generally shows with writing this bad just get cancelled. It doesn't bode well for future quality.

The way they're setting things up, it appears we'll get either approximations or echoes of book events such as Jaime/Blackfish, The North Remembers, and possibly more. If an effort is made to incorporate book dialogue, those scenes should shine. There's some quality performers in the cast, and the production quality still ranges from strong to acceptable. If, however, the show continues to ad hoc its new brand of anachronistic dialogue it's going to become flatly unwatchable. You can only bury so much of the writing with spectacle, the show just doesn't have the budget to NOT have at least 50% of the running time being "folks sitting around talking". 

Anyway, yeah. Sorry to be the resident crank, but bad show is bad, and getting worse with each outing. They need to hire new writers yesterday.

[Nanrad]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Fuck yes, (kind of White Walkered?) Benjen! Loved it!

Kind of annoyed that Arya's decision to turn her back on Lady Crane seemed to hinge on her realization that her revenge was more important to her.

The Tarly women costumes were...interesting. Hannah Murray looked beautiful, though.

I see it more as justice and not revenge. Then there was a conversation about what Arya wanted and that she had expressive eyes. Arya realized that she couldn't become no one and had to get her family justice--also, she wasn't throwing away her humanity. 

12 hours ago, stagmania said:

What a disjointed episode, with some moments that felt either rather abrupt (Arya changing her mind) or unearned (Dany giving yet another motivational speech). The Tarly story seems to exist mostly to introduce another Valyrian steel sword into the eventual fight against the white walkers. The returns of Benjen and Edmure were interesting, though. Not one of the better outings of the season, but at least we're progressing forward.

Arya's storyline has always showed evidence of her being reluctant to completely immerse herself in the Faceless Men philosophy. She refused to throw away Needle, always asked questions, killed someone from her list, and could never detach herself from the kill. Then, the fact that her last mission involved watching that inaccurate play along with a woman who Arya felt wasn't deserving to die, it's honestly far from abrupt. 

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Actually, I think what annoys me about Sam taking Heartsbane is that it seemed like a scene you would always see on television, like the teenager taking his father's car to piss him off and it so doesn't work in the world of Game of Thrones.  Sam's not going to get within a league of getting away with that and what would happen in "real life" is Randyll would run him down and kill him for taking the sword. 

Taking Heartsbane completely reeked of a 1980s teen comedy and the writers seemed completely unable to avoid using that cliché.

EDIT: The ONLY thing I see saving Sam is that Randyll sure isn't going to let his men know that his "fat and useless" son stole his sword.  He'll likely keep that quiet.

I forgive the scene because I read it as being more than about pissing his father off. It was Valyrian steel, which is one of the few things that can kill a white walker. Once he decided to stop letting his father boss him around and further dictate his life, he decided to take a risk and steal the valuable sword for the impending war.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Nanrad
repetition

[Gertrude]

I know that's what they were going for, but honestly? What does he plan to do with it? Unless he just runs back to the Wall instead of going to the Citadel, Randyll knows exactly where to find him, and has all the time in the world to get him. Of course, he doesn't know about the impending doom headed towards the Reach in longships that might change that equation, but given the situation right now, Sam's a dumbass :p

[Eyes High]

48 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

The more this season dithers and spins its wheels, the more it seems like it's killing time waiting for George to get another book out. If it was the last book, that would make perfect sense, but as the penultimate novel isn't due out until 2027 I doubt the show can hold out that long.

The Good

• The dinner at Horn Hill was actually quite well done. I believe some of the dialogue was either taken in full from the book, or adapted. The bloke playing Tarly got the tone right. (...)
•  
• I'll put it as plainly as I can. Even if you're a show fanatic who never read and do not care for the books, even if you thought seasons 4 and 5 were the cat's pajamas, love the excess and the special effects, and think the show is campy good fun. The quality of the writing on the show is teetering on disastrous. There was a show-written scene in season 1 between Robert and Cersei in which he lectures her on the Dothraki and "5 and 1", suggesting that a unified force will beat a larger, scattered one. It was a strong scene, and spoke true to their characters. All hint of that level of competence in writing has long fled. The dialogue is now cringeworthy. For every marginal, acceptable line there's at least three that have me squirming with disbelief. I'd find some other shows to compare it to, but generally shows with writing this bad just get cancelled. It doesn't bode well for future quality.

 

The way they're setting things up, it appears we'll get either approximations or echoes of book events such as Jaime/Blackfish, The North Remembers, and possibly more. If an effort is made to incorporate book dialogue, those scenes should shine. There's some quality performers in the cast, and the production quality still ranges from strong to acceptable. If, however, the show continues to ad hoc its new brand of anachronistic dialogue it's going to become flatly unwatchable. You can only bury so much of the writing with spectacle, the show just doesn't have the budget to NOT have at least 50% of the running time being "folks sitting around talking". 

Anyway, yeah. Sorry to be the resident crank, but bad show is bad, and getting worse with each outing. They need to hire new writers yesterday.

I think the dialogue is just fine. It's workmanlike, to be sure, but serviceable enough for moving large chunks of plot along, which appears to be the writers' top priority these days in any event; the dialogue is the lubricant that greases the wheels of the enormous engines of plot to be ground forward. The writers don't have the luxury of treating the dialogue as beautiful ornamentation that serves as an end to itself; it is a tool and a mechanism. When you approach dialogue in that fashion, you're not going to get painfully gorgeous writing; you'll get serviceable dialogue that moves things along, as the GOT dialogue does. Works for me. Furthermore, I find that a lot of the book dialogue is atrocious, apart from the deliciously bitchy repartee and the occasional fine speech; it's "campy good fun" and often just as workmanlike as the GOT dialogue at its core. Shakespeare it ain't, and neither is GOT, and I don't have a problem with that. I don't expect Shakespeare from pulpy fantasy (although I demand bitchy, Dynasty-worthy dialogue), and I don't expect Shakespeare from a television adaptation of monstrously bloated fantasy, sagging under the weight of its subplots, that needs to be shaped into something semi-coherent for TV. I accept both ASOIAF and GOT for what they are and don't expect or imagine them to be anything other than that.

As for the assumption here that the Horn Hill material must have been from the books, because it was good, I had to laugh. I'm very amused by the frequent assumption by many book fans that anything seen as good in the show not in the books must have come from GRRM, and anything seen as bad in the show not in the books must have come from D&D. It reminds me of the book fans who last week sneered at the "Hold the door" revelation until--surprise!--it was revealed it came from GRRM, at which point it was magically transformed into the most clever, beautiful and profound thing ever imagined by anyone.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Eyes High

[Brn2bwild]

Does anyone else think it's unlikely that young actress paid the Faceless Men to kill the older actress?  At least in the books, we know that the FM don't come cheap, and she doesn't seem like the type to have the cash.  I wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  As a bonus, she could get rid of an irritating acolyte (who also doesn't seem to be No One). 

[Umbelina]

Game of Thrones: A Painstaking Breakdown of Everything Bran Learned in His Vision

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/game-of-thrones-season-6-bran-vision-breakdown-aerys-wildfire#16

First of many no doubt, but pretty well done.

Also kind of cool, all of the Valyrian Swords we know of.  http://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-tracking-every-valyrian-steel-sword-we-know-of/

Edited May 30, 2016 by Umbelina

[Keely]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

As for the assumption here that the Horn Hill material must have been from the books, because it was good, I had to laugh. I'm very amused by the frequent assumption by many book fans that anything seen as good in the show not in the books must have come from GRRM, and anything seen as bad in the show not in the books must have come from D&D. It reminds me of the book fans who last week sneered at the "Hold the door" revelation until--surprise!--it was revealed it came from GRRM, at which point it was magically transformed into the most clever, beautiful and profound thing ever imagined by anyone.

The dialogue is fine for me as well. Could they do better? Sure but that's true of most shows.

And everything you said regarding D&D versus GRRM made me grin. I've noticed the same trend. I nearly cackled last week over hold the door and damn did I laugh when it was revealed Shireen's death did indeed come from GRRM. Book readers were up in arms when the show did it and accused the show of everything including losing the plot because book Stannis would never. Except he apparently would and will. 

[Oscirus]

Quote

 wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  

Not only did she refuse an assignment for the second time but she also just outted the organization to a target. I don't think they're playing with Arya anymore.

 

Ok I knew something was missing in the Jamie slays scene.
 

Quote

 

Burn them all,” he said. “Burn them in their homes, burn them in their beds.”

First I killed the pyromancer and then, when the king turned to flee, I drove my sword into his back. “Burn them all,” he kept saying. “Burn them all.”

 

Where the hell was the pyromancer's body?

[DigitalCount]

In whatever room he killed Rossart in. Aerys was surprised to learn Jaime had killed the pyromancer, and he asked whose blood was on the blade. The events didn't actually happen so closely in sequence; Jaime's recounting of the tale is imprecise.

Edited May 30, 2016 by DigitalCount

[GreyBunny]

Benjen.  Chekhov's Stark finally returns.  He couldn't be bothered to send word to the Wall about what happened? A lot of men died looking for his sorry, undead ass.

So Dany comes back on a dragon.  So...what happened to her horse?  I hope Drogon didn't eat it.

Randyll is as big of a git as expected.  Too bad Gilly didn't cover by saying something like, "I lived in a keep just south of the wall.  The wildlings burned my home, killed my family, and kidnapped me.  Sam found me up north and saved my life and brought me back," but her wildling pride got the better of her.

Edited May 30, 2016 by GreyBunny

[MadMouse]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think the dialogue is just fine. It's workmanlike, to be sure, but serviceable enough for moving large chunks of plot along, which appears to be the writers' top priority these days in any event; the dialogue is the lubricant that greases the wheels of the enormous engines of plot to be ground forward. The writers don't have the luxury of treating the dialogue as beautiful ornamentation that serves as an end to itself; it is a tool and a mechanism. When you approach dialogue in that fashion, you're not going to get painfully gorgeous writing; you'll get serviceable dialogue that moves things along, as the GOT dialogue does. Works for me. Furthermore, I find that a lot of the book dialogue is atrocious, apart from the deliciously bitchy repartee and the occasional fine speech; it's "campy good fun" and often just as workmanlike as the GOT dialogue at its core. Shakespeare it ain't, and neither is GOT, and I don't have a problem with that. I don't expect Shakespeare from pulpy fantasy (although I demand bitchy, Dynasty-worthy dialogue), and I don't expect Shakespeare from a television adaptation of monstrously bloated fantasy, sagging under the weight of its subplots, that needs to be shaped into something semi-coherent for TV. I accept both ASOIAF and GOT for what they are and don't expect or imagine them to be anything other than that.

As for the assumption here that the Horn Hill material must have been from the books, because it was good, I had to laugh. I'm very amused by the frequent assumption by many book fans that anything seen as good in the show not in the books must have come from GRRM, and anything seen as bad in the show not in the books must have come from D&D. It reminds me of the book fans who last week sneered at the "Hold the door" revelation until--surprise!--it was revealed it came from GRRM, at which point it was magically transformed into the most clever, beautiful and profound thing ever imagined by anyone.

Its because book fans don't believe that scenes like Hold the door or Shireen burning will happen like that in the books. That has always been the show's fatal flaw, context and circumstances. They want all the big moments but they are built on a flimsy narrative. Perfect example last season and Lyanna Mormont's letter to Stannis. Book fans loved it because we know how loyal her family are to the Starks because Dacey died protecting Robb and her mother was a huge supporter of his. The same with Manderly shitting on the Frey's. Will show watchers care, I doubt it. That's because the the consequences of the Red Wedding were swept away. Other examples the Sand Snakes getting vengeance for their father, aunt and cousins by killing their uncle and other cousin? What? The Kingsmoot is another how long had it been since we got more than a passing scene with Balon and then he's murdered by his brother. And show watchers are supposed to care why?

Lets be real, most of the show only stuff has been really terrible. The rape fest at Craster's, so Jon could level up his fighting skills. Super Ramsay and flay team six. Jaime in Dorne. Tywin the kindly grandpa to Arya.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

In whatever room he killed Rossart in. Aerys was surprised to learn Jaime had killed the pyromancer, and he asked whose blood was on the blade. The events didn't actually happen so closely in sequence; Jaime's recounting of the tale is imprecise.

The murder of the king in the book was a lot different then the way he described it/ they showed it in the show.  But I guess I'll just have to settle with faulty narrator.

[J----av]

21 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Does anyone else think it's unlikely that young actress paid the Faceless Men to kill the older actress?  At least in the books, we know that the FM don't come cheap, and she doesn't seem like the type to have the cash.  I wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  As a bonus, she could get rid of an irritating acolyte (who also doesn't seem to be No One). 

The FM don't come cheap to rich people with important targets

[Rocket]

Still loving the show although will agree that going off book has been a problem. But the book's also a problem in that key villain Tywin died and before that Rob. Thus a more peaceful Westross without mastermind or hero is not as exciting. 

Have to try hard to think of how the 3 eyed raven could miss so much in leading to his death unless that was his plan.

Ben's story indicated he was saved by the Children so maybe there are more elsewhere. 

Loved Danny on the Dragon inspiring the troops and as mentioned above this is first collective speech, to bad CGI and budget had her talking to so few when  up to 100,000 are following her. And that Dragon is big. To bad Tywin is dead, would loved to hear his reaction to Dragons growing fast that might just reach the size they were when they took Westoros the last time. combined with 100,000 Dothraki and 8,000 Unsullied. Probably something on Argon only needed a poor undisciplined not very large ground force to take Westross so Danny's ground force is way more than needed for occupation troops. 

The enlightenment has not occurred so almost everyone even the poorest and most oppressed want a King. People have mentioned how when occupying a place you have to understand the culture and that the locals might just not be into modern ideas. This is the same with Danny and any other character including Sansa, all want to have Lords and Kings, they just in many cases want better ones.

Danny has the right to enforce her claim with what forces she can raise and Danny's claim now with Stanis dead is the best in the legal terms Westros understands. Even Rob's Northern army did some raping and pillaging, forces that don't do that are hard to find in a medieval world (there are some unfortunately many are religious burn the pagan and the heretics types though), hopefully Danny can confine it to those who fail to bend the knee. Plus I think the WW might distract. 

Mary Sue is a poor term because of being a popular buzz word has been expanded way past it's original meaning so it hard to tell what parts of the original meaning people are complaining about. The original term only applied to fan fiction where the author added a additional character that was a author avatar that was better than any original character and basically perfect. In this story Danny has many flaws as her critics have noted basically exempting her from any Mary Sue claim because she is not perfect. I guess the term here is for a character you dislike having lots of luck.

I understand how a more traditional fantasy storyline character would come across badly to those not that much into traditional fantasy or folk lore. I especially understand here in this story that for a long time played out like a historical fiction it can be jarring for the traditional gifted and fated by the gods type of leader to be destined for power it seams. Arthur only had to pull a sword out of a stone after all to be King. 

Danny was torn down before the show started and in the first season the growth was her realizing her destiny and having the strength of will to strive for her vision that no one else thought possible. Following that up has been her failures caused by lack of education on governing and many other areas but she has always seamed willing to learn and now she has teachers. I greatly admire her character.

Great Intelligence and fighting talents are gifts of the gods as well.

I know that for some the type of King that gets "the Great" (for the most part) added to the name comes across like Danny does in this story, poorly. A American and some other cultures common dislike of royalty and the divine right to rule, a desire for their leader to be humble. Humble gets you killed in the Game of Thrones wether good or evil one must show strength. For others I'm sure it is discrimination against women and a male Danny they would love. Hard to tell the difference between them as comments would look the same so I will not judge a individual writer.

There was on TV without Pity a fun question what would you do if transported to Westros, me I thought up how to get in with the Starks and the King as a great wizard who informed on the twin's at the start but latter after my invention of the printing press got common arrange for the collected works of the Enlightenment to be converted to Westros terms and printed, living after ward might be tricky but the risk worth it. (lack of literacy would be a problem might take centuries to sink in)

[J----av]

3 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Its because book fans don't believe that scenes like Hold the door or Shireen burning will happen like that in the books. That has always been the show's fatal flaw, context and circumstances. They want all the big moments but they are built on a flimsy narrative. Perfect example last season and Lyanna Mormont's letter to Stannis. Book fans loved it because we know how loyal her family are to the Starks because Dacey died protecting Robb and her mother was a huge supporter of his. The same with Manderly shitting on the Frey's. Will show watchers care, I doubt it. That's because the the consequences of the Red Wedding were swept away. Other examples the Sand Snakes getting vengeance for their father, aunt and cousins by killing their uncle and other cousin? What? The Kingsmoot is another how long had it been since we got more than a passing scene with Balon and then he's murdered by his brother. And show watchers are supposed to care why?

Lets be real, most of the show only stuff has been really terrible. The rape fest at Craster's, so Jon could level up his fighting skills. Super Ramsay and flay team six. Jaime in Dorne. Tywin the kindly grandpa to Arya.

 

 Don't forget everything Sansa the last two seasons.

 

I wish we got book Ramsay on the show.

[ElizaD]

Loved the Sam scenes this week. A bit of sweetness with the women of the family and perfect casting for the asshole dad.

I really liked Benjen's actor, so I'm glad he was able to come back. I'm afraid this might lead to another onscreen Stark death, though.

Walder Frey is another perfect villain. He's such fun to watch as he insults his useless family.

Completely fed up with Dany. Everyone else on this show suffers before winning a little and then suffering again, but Dany has just become Cersei's smug entitlement with extra dragons and minus the setbacks/humanizing moments.

[GreyBunny]

Love or hate Dany's speech, it roused her audience. Contrast with Mace's impotent warblings.

[loki567]

Lame episode but understandable considering the pace they've been on. That's the problem with heavily serialized storytelling, there does need to be be set-up episodes. 

I said it at the beginning of the season, it's funny that the Northern storylines use to be such a drag on the show and now they're all that's holding it up. I can't be bothered to really care about anything else at this point. King's Landing has been an utter chore since Tyrion left. I think the writers feel obligated the actors there some material but it's so boring and disjointed.

I'm pretty much skipped Dany's speech because seen one, seen them all. They do seem to be setting her up as conqueror more than Queen, which is where we last saw her in the books. 

I hope that GRRM has something better planed for Arya than that. Because there doesn't feel like there's been any significant advancement or character development since she got to Bravos. I could see her killing the Waif, taking her place, and potentially killing Jaqen. Maybe stealing some faces for good measure.