This Is Our Spoiler and Speculation Topic

[himela]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaRai said:

I'm still questioning the whole "death bed" concept.  Yes, Rebecca seems to be bedridden and frail, but she's not on life support, so there can't really be a timetable for when she'll pass.  The signs when one's organs are shutting down usually come in their final hours, not days - and not enough time to gather out of town family, find party games & go for take out (at least in my experience).  Family does, of course, visit a loved one to say goodbye before the end, but the expectation here, audience-wise, is that it's Rebecca's death. 

I also don't understand why it'd be important for Toby to be there and why he's the one answering where his kids are.  Not if Kate is in charge of Rebecca and making all these arrangements.  Surely she'd know where Jack was, and would be the one Randall asked - not Toby who appeared to come from a hotel room where he was alone. 

All these reasons and more have me convinced that Kate is dead by that time. The show needs something dramatic for the finale, more dramatic than Rebecca dying in her 80s.

[CrystalBlue]

10 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

I know Cassidy is a possibility but two recovering addicts not sure that would be a good thing.

Who said it would be a good thing?  😃  It's just a possibility. They brought Cassidy back for a reason and I'm wondering if the company Kevin starts (Big Three Houses or Builders?) is going to be the Pearsons:  Kevin, Mrs. Cassidy Pearson, and Nicky Pearson.

[CrystalBlue]

My vote goes to Kevin and Madison by default too.  The twins would benefit most by their parents being together regardless of the happy happy feely feely fairytale some people are wishing for.

Just like what's best for Jack and Hailey would be an intact family but... oh well.

[debraran]

34 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

We know that a woman is staying in the same hotel room as Kevin in the wedding FF and that he and Madison seem really close - she playfully puts her hand on his chest and teases him about having told him something many times that morning. If both he and Madison are with other people at the time, that level of intimacy wouldn't be inappropriate. Even if they remain very friendly for the sake of their children, as they should, I don't think they would be so touchy-feely with each other.

My best guess about Sophie is that she comes to the wedding as Kate's friend, and her seeing Kevin happy with another woman will be the final closure for them (although, for Sophie's sake, I'd want her to have moved on years before that).

I still think that was a red herring , the touching. He did with Beth too I think. I cant see TIU telling that much and still saying it's a secret. I don't think that was Kevin's room either but I'm minority on that. I saw no sign he was there, clothes, toiletries,he didn't see magazine before and bed enlarged a bit seemed mussy only on one side. Where were their kids? Wouldn't you stay with them? One bed.. time will tell.

I only thought Sophie before they let her off her stricter contract, because WAY back writers said when someone commented on how bad Kevin was to Sophie, "Kevin was immature, to young to marry, then Kevin was an alcoholic and had to face that, later the third time would be the charm." Like it or not, I feel that was their scenario and they never would have had the long speeches to Sophie about missing his arm or only loving her, and of course the 2 episode plot with the ring. It never would have been introduced. Sophie staring at it in box when Kevin left (hours before Madison encounter) showed she wouldn't wear it unless he did give it to her.

I am open to whatever they write, most fans don't like everything, but i know they never expected Alex to get Virgin River, probably just "movie of the week" type stuff or Hallmark etc. She said she was supposed to film more with Kevin but would do what she could. This year she finished early, TIU later. So it's up to Dan...does his wife get this very long, sad love life with Kevin who can't love her after over 2 years or get someone new, Sophie and finish the circle, or no one?

 

[Diana Berry]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

I still think that was a red herring , the touching. He did with Beth too I think. I cant see TIU telling that much and still saying it's a secret. I don't think that was Kevin's room either but I'm minority on that. I saw no sign he was there, clothes, toiletries,he didn't see magazine before and bed enlarged a bit seemed mussy only on one side. Where were their kids? Wouldn't you stay with them? One bed.. time will tell.

I only thought Sophie before they let her off her stricter contract, because WAY back writers said when someone commented on how bad Kevin was to Sophie, "Kevin was immature, to young to marry, then Kevin was an alcoholic and had to face that, later the third time would be the charm." Like it or not, I feel that was their scenario and they never would have had the long speeches to Sophie about missing his arm or only loving her, and of course the 2 episode plot with the ring. It never would have been introduced. Sophie staring at it in box when Kevin left (hours before Madison encounter) showed she wouldn't wear it unless he did give it to her.

I am open to whatever they write, most fans don't like everything, but i know they never expected Alex to get Virgin River, probably just "movie of the week" type stuff or Hallmark etc. She said she was supposed to film more with Kevin but would do what she could. This year she finished early, TIU later. So it's up to Dan...does his wife get this very long, sad love life with Kevin who can't love her after over 2 years or get someone new, Sophie and finish the circle, or no one?

 

I know there is a lot of talk online about the robe in the wedding ff scene being Madison’s( it does look like it and my own fave robe is over 10 years old lol).  Maybe he just decided to get ready in her room?

my personal first choice is Madison so I’m rooting for them,

I honestly could skip Takoby and just to the wedding episode.

[CountryGirl]

I wouldn't put much stock in this or that "prop" being Madison's or anyone's in particular. Because Sophie's watch has also been spotted. Cassie also was shown to have a floral robe when Kevin called her before he came out to PA earlier in the season. For all we know, it might not even be Kevin's room. 

I'm still a bit of a Kevin/Sophie fan. Sorry, I can't help it. I know in real life, I would be telling Sophie to run for the hills, but it's a show, not real life. Plus, I look at it from the perspective that Kevin has finally grown into the man Sophie deserves. When they were first married, they were barely out of highschool (they were both still 18) and hadn't even grown into the people they would become. Kevin was immature and had no idea what the heck he was doing and trying to get into acting while Sophie was busy with nursing school. It was a recipe for disaster just as Deja finishing school to go play house and stepmommy to Janelle while he gets to live his dreams was not going to work in the long run. But they could very well get back together in the future as I suspect Deja and Malik will.

When he and Sophie met up years later, he was very much in the throes of his addiction, although doing his best to hide it.

Now, he is sober and focused and has finally grown up and because of the work he has done on himself to get to this point and be the best man he knows how for his kids (i.e. taking the awful Manny reboot so he can be as present as possible for the twins), he could finally be the best man for Sophie.

To have all the bread crumbs that have been dropped be for nothing, but again, TPTB like to keep us guessing. Like The Princess Bride in the toast at Kate's wedding. Madison even says she doesn't want him quoting movies but he's going to do it anyway and THAT movie of all movies? That is Sophie's favorite movie. 

The ring Sophie's mom told him to earn.

Kevin putting a photo of them in his time capsule which he buried outside the cabin he lives at in the flash forwards with his wife. Him at 40 not being able to imagine a future with Madison after their children are grown, but having imagined every single detail of his future with Sophie at 20.

Sophie has been in the show every season, in every timeline, including this season. In every show where they have done the "what if Jack hadn't died?," Sophie and Kevin are still married and very much in love. I see them as having the kind of love story that is most similar to the apparent gold standard of Jack and Rebecca, including their shared alcoholism. They failed the second go-round because of Kevin's addiction, not because they were toxic for each other (they weren't fighting etc).

And we know Sophie ended things with her fiance, so there is no relationship for Kevin to upset there. I knew that relationship was doomed when Sophie said: "“I can’t believe I am going to spend the rest of my life with someone who didn’t even know her" and was referring to her mother, who loved Kevin like her own son.

Although all of that to say, I would honestly be fine if Kevin was single and taking care of the true love(s) of his life - his children.

I don't want Madison as I feel it would be forced after all of this time. It's been over two years at this point since the twins were conceived and if his only response, after all this time, to the question (this time from Randall) as to any feelings/being in love etc is a really long pause, followed by "I don't know." You either are or you aren't. That they have kids doesn't push me any further in the Madison camp. Kids are not a reason to get married if love for the mother/father of your children isn't there. Madison knew that; it's why she called off the wedding. 

I actually wouldn't mind Cassidy, although agreed that two recovering addicts wouldn't be a great launching pad for a relationship.

[debraran]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I wouldn't put much stock in this or that "prop" being Madison's or anyone's in particular. Because Sophie's watch has also been spotted. Cassie also was shown to have a floral robe when Kevin called her before he came out to PA earlier in the season. For all we know, it might not even be Kevin's room. 

I'm still a bit of a Kevin/Sophie fan. Sorry, I can't help it. I know in real life, I would be telling Sophie to run for the hills, but it's a show, not real life. Plus, I look at it from the perspective that Kevin has finally grown into the man Sophie deserves. When they were first married, they were barely out of highschool (they were both still 18) and hadn't even grown into the people they would become. Kevin was immature and had no idea what the heck he was doing and trying to get into acting while Sophie was busy with nursing school. It was a recipe for disaster just as Deja finishing school to go play house and stepmommy to Janelle while he gets to live his dreams was not going to work in the long run. But they could very well get back together in the future as I suspect Deja and Malik will.

When he and Sophie met up years later, he was very much in the throes of his addiction, although doing his best to hide it.

Now, he is sober and focused and has finally grown up and because of the work he has done on himself to get to this point and be the best man he knows how for his kids (i.e. taking the awful Manny reboot so he can be as present as possible for the twins), he could finally be the best man for Sophie.

To have all the bread crumbs that have been dropped be for nothing, but again, TPTB like to keep us guessing. Like The Princess Bride in the toast at Kate's wedding. Madison even says she doesn't want him quoting movies but he's going to do it anyway and THAT movie of all movies? That is Sophie's favorite movie. 

The ring Sophie's mom told him to earn.

Kevin putting a photo of them in his time capsule which he buried outside the cabin he lives at in the flash forwards with his wife. Him at 40 not being able to imagine a future with Madison after their children are grown, but having imagined every single detail of his future with Sophie at 20.

Sophie has been in the show every season, in every timeline, including this season. In every show where they have done the "what if Jack hadn't died?," Sophie and Kevin are still married and very much in love. I see them as having the kind of love story that is most similar to the apparent gold standard of Jack and Rebecca, including their shared alcoholism. They failed the second go-round because of Kevin's addiction, not because they were toxic for each other (they weren't fighting etc).

And we know Sophie ended things with her fiance, so there is no relationship for Kevin to upset there. I knew that relationship was doomed when Sophie said: "“I can’t believe I am going to spend the rest of my life with someone who didn’t even know her" and was referring to her mother, who loved Kevin like her own son.

Although all of that to say, I would honestly be fine if Kevin was single and taking care of the true love(s) of his life - his children.

I don't want Madison as I feel it would be forced after all of this time. It's been over two years at this point since the twins were conceived and if his only response, after all this time, to the question (this time from Randall) as to any feelings/being in love etc is a really long pause, followed by "I don't know." You either are or you aren't. That they have kids doesn't push me any further in the Madison camp. Kids are not a reason to get married if love for the mother/father of your children isn't there. Madison knew that; it's why she called off the wedding. 

I actually wouldn't mind Cassidy, although agreed that two recovering addicts wouldn't be a great launching pad for a relationship.

I agree with everything and Justin said no fiancé for her will be shown  with a smile. Since the writers echoed what you said years ago on his growth and deserving her later I can only think Virgin River put a wrench in it hopefully just for a bit. 

[CountryGirl]

Virgin River wrapped up filming for S4 in December '21 and S5 filming won't commence until July '22. Plenty of time for Sophie to appear and we know she looks to make her first appearance two episodes from now with the Kate/Philip wedding. 

[mostlylurking]

I’m still rooting for Madison and Kevin.  Too much history between him and Sophie, and a lot of it bad.  Cassidy I get a friend vibe.  Zoe didn’t want children.  I still maintain Madison and Kevin love each other, they were just deluded by all that fairy tale, sweep me off my feet love.  That’s not all there is, and it doesn’t make it any less real or deep.

[JKL845]

Preface this by saying, with this show I know future scenes can totally change what's been shown. But with what we've been told and shown so far, I don't think there has been a lot of bad between Kevin and Sophie. He cheated on her once and was shattered by it. He felt so guilty he couldn't look at her and he came clean about it. When she gave him another chance, he realized his addiction would destroy them, so he decided to end things before he hurt her even more. Knowing he needed to get himself clean first. 

Kevin has been in love with Sophie since he was a young boy and his love for her only grew. Sophie has been shown as a strong woman, the strongest woman on this show. Beth as well to a lesser extent. Sophie didn't give up her dreams to follow Kevin's. She became the nurse she wanted to be. Sophie didn't ignore the cheating, she left. She's loved Kevin her whole life, but she didn't accept being mistreated by him. 

They may not end up together, but for this show, Sophie is the only woman Kevin has truly loved. 

[debraran]

This clip (as there are many) tell his love pretty well. The grave scene too in another video wanting another chance. When he says she looks amazing it reminds me of the speech in the bathroom. Have to listen to that again. : ) He also told her mom in his autographed pic he wouldn't settle. No offense to Madison though, but he'd be settling.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by debraran

[Crs97]

Is anyone else sick of the "he has to earn" Sophie talk, though?  Is she really a prize?  Just turns me off them as a couple.  The couples I know who have crashed and burned have considered their spouse as the one "marrying up."  I don't like the dynamics this gives them.

[Rootbeer]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Is anyone else sick of the "he has to earn" Sophie talk, though?  Is she really a prize?  Just turns me off them as a couple.  The couples I know who have crashed and burned have considered their spouse as the one "marrying up."  I don't like the dynamics this gives them.

Yes, I am not seeing what is so incredibly special about Sophie that Kevin is beneath her and needs to work to get her.  They married very young and he wasn't a good husband.  He had a substance abuse problem and has addressed it.  Are we supposed to think that Sophie has lived a life of total perfection and virtue to this point?  If either one of them thinks that she is so clearly superior to him, any relationship is doomed.

[debraran]

1 minute ago, Crs97 said:

Is anyone else sick of the "he has to earn" Sophie talk, though?  Is she really a prize?  Just turns me off them as a couple.  The couples I know who have crashed and burned have considered their spouse as the one "marrying up."  I don't like the dynamics this gives them.

On face value, but the way Claire meant it (and she was his second mom) was they did an immature thing getting married and he still was acting immature. She had faith in him to obtain his dreams but wouldn't' give him something that was so meaningful and expensive until he really understood the meaning behind it.

This explains it, corny, not what I would have written but they are the writers . My thing has always been why did they write it, when totally not needed if he wasn't going to end up with Sophie.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/this-is-us-who-was-sophies-mom-and-what-ever-happened-to-that-emerald-ring.html/

[chocolatine]

Not only is it not healthy for one partner to be put on a pedestal in a relationship, this particular relationship is a dead horse that has decomposed a long time ago. They both need to move on already.

Edited April 11, 2022 by chocolatine

[Rootbeer]

3 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Not only is it not healthy for one partner to be put on a pedestal in a relationship, this particular relationship is a dead horse that has decomposed a lot time ago. They both need to move on already.

Yeah, I really don't see the chemistry between them, nor why they'd want to give it another try at this point.  Makes no sense to me.

[debraran]

4 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Yeah, I really don't see the chemistry between them, nor why they'd want to give it another try at this point.  Makes no sense to me.

 

I don't see it with anyone a lot, some sexual chemistry with some women but not a lot. I see 0 with Madison but with Sophie there were looks that said more. No sex, it was being friends and the old fashioned looks from old movies I liked. Sex isn't love and I never liked equating the two.  I don't see it as one person being better, they are supposed to be equals now that Kevin grew up. (well sort of) That's how Justin put it and the writers 3 years ago, but who knows now? Covid and other things threw some things in a tail spin.

I want to see more Miguel and Rebecca as mature adults and Nicky and his wife.

Edited April 11, 2022 by debraran

[CrystalBlue]

Is Sophie moving up by remarrying a man who now has twins with another woman?  Sophie gets InstaFamily and Nick and Franny get a new stepmother!

[CountryGirl]

The fairytale that was Kophie was over at 20. They are not kids anymore and haven’t been for a long time. 

Love can come in many different forms. With MH, it was friendship that caught fire like Rebecca and Miguel. But it has to actually exist to the point where one can say “I love you” to the other person. Kevin had never, ever said it to Madison or about her. Even with faced with the news of her impending engagement to Elijah (which I was waiting for the trope/cliche of cliches for Kevin to have the sudden epiphany that “I do love her, I do, I do!), his response was (after a long pause) “I don’t know.” Either he does love her or he doesn’t. Kevin has such a desire to love and be loved that I’ve never seen him hold back feelings. That’s why I don’t believe he loves Madison as anything more than the mother of his children. And that’s not enough for him or her. Could that epiphany still come? Sure, but I won’t be buying it. 

[Quiet1]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Is anyone else sick of the "he has to earn" Sophie talk, though?  Is she really a prize?  Just turns me off them as a couple.  The couples I know who have crashed and burned have considered their spouse as the one "marrying up."  I don't like the dynamics this gives them.

Maybe it's more from the stuff you are reading online? As far as I know there was only that one line from Sophie's mom (in her funeral episode). She knew they were too young and thought he needed to grow up more before he "earned" the family ring. Where else on the show have you seen this? I think they both have a deep love for each other. No one is better than the other or on a pedestal. So far, in their relationship, we've seen Kevin's mistakes and from his view point. Maybe they'll explore it further. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm still a bit of a Kevin/Sophie fan.

I'm Team Kophie (Sovin?) whatever. I hope that she's the one.

[3 is enough]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:55 AM, GeorgiaRai said:

I'm still questioning the whole "death bed" concept.  Yes, Rebecca seems to be bedridden and frail, but she's not on life support, so there can't really be a timetable for when she'll pass.  The signs when one's organs are shutting down usually come in their final hours, not days - and not enough time to gather out of town family, find party games & go for take out (at least in my experience).  Family does, of course, visit a loved one to say goodbye before the end, but the expectation here, audience-wise, is that it's Rebecca's death. 

I also don't understand why it'd be important for Toby to be there and why he's the one answering where his kids are.  Not if Kate is in charge of Rebecca and making all these arrangements.  Surely she'd know where Jack was, and would be the one Randall asked - not Toby who appeared to come from a hotel room where he was alone.  

I do love the way Randall hugs Toby (though, again, why? Toby was booted from the family years before this, and his time in Pearson World was fairly short.)

My mother had end stage dementia and passed away last October.  She was very weak and was admitted to the hospital, and the staff told my brother that she did not have a lot of time.  She had specified that she wanted no extraordinary measures, and had a DNR.  She lasted a week- enough time for my other brothers and I to get there from all over the US and Canada- even with Covid restrictions. She was not responsive for the last couple of days but fortunately we all arrived before that.

So I do find the scenario with Rebecca plausible.

Edited April 12, 2022 by 3 is enough

[debraran]

I guess singing bonds them?? ; )

[Mrs Shibbles]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I guess singing bonds them?? ; )

Tubthumping- how romantic.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Yeah, I really don't see the chemistry between them, nor why they'd want to give it another try at this point.  Makes no sense to me.

 

13 hours ago, debraran said:

 

I don't see it with anyone a lot, some sexual chemistry with some women but not a lot. I see 0 with Madison but with Sophie there were looks that said more. No sex, it was being friends and the old fashioned looks from old movies I liked. Sex isn't love and I never liked equating the two.  I don't see it as one person being better, they are supposed to be equals now that Kevin grew up. (well sort of) That's how Justin put it and the writers 3 years ago, but who knows now? Covid and other things threw some things in a tail spin.

I want to see more Miguel and Rebecca as mature adults and Nicky and his wife.

I'll be honest in that despite the fact that the actor is gorgeous, I have never sensed any real chemistry between Kevin and any of his love interests. I do not know if it is Justin or the writing. They could make Kevin's last love be a mannequin at this point for all it matters to me.

These people can be annoying but the actors build a believable enough chemistry that they feel like real couples:

• Jack and Rebecca
• Randall and Beth
• Kate and Toby (even with their marital issues)

Heck, Randall gets on my last nerve but I believe that Randall and Beth are one of the best couples to ever come on my screen. Individually, they might not work with many people but they are perfect for each other.

I wish the writer would go the route of Kevin will never have one true love but leads a happy life single. Not everyone in life gets paired up and it is better to be alone than with somebody that is not right for you.

However, this is television and single people always have to be miserable.

[CountryGirl]

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I wish the writer would go the route of Kevin will never have one true love but leads a happy life single. Not everyone in life gets paired up and it is better to be alone than with somebody that is not right for you.

As much as I ship Kophie, I would be fine with this for Kevin. 

Elsewhere, I found this regarding tonight's episode.

https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-producers-tease-intense-final-chapter-kate-toby/?did=765459-20220412&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=041222&cid=765459&mid=84505066465

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

As much as I ship Kophie, I would be fine with this for Kevin. 

Elsewhere, I found this regarding tonight's episode.

https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-producers-tease-intense-final-chapter-kate-toby/?did=765459-20220412&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=041222&cid=765459&mid=84505066465

I saw that article yesterday.  I do not envision myself needing a tissue tonight let alone a beach towel.  I get these types of articles and why writers/producers/actors say things like this, but if you warn me I will cry, I will not.  This show has made me cry, but never the scenes the creators expect.

[CountryGirl]

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I saw that article yesterday.  I do not envision myself needing a tissue tonight let alone a beach towel.  I get these types of articles and why writers/producers/actors say things like this, but if you warn me I will cry, I will not.  This show has made me cry, but never the scenes the creators expect.

The beach towel comment made me 🙄.

Like I'll cry if/when I want to, not when you want me to.

[GeorgiaRai]

10 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

My mother had end stage dementia and passed away last October.  She was very weak and was admitted to the hospital, and the staff told my brother that she did not have a lot of time.  She had specified that she wanted no extraordinary measures, and had a DNR.  She lasted a week- enough time for my other brothers and I to get there from all over the US and Canada- even with Covid restrictions. She was not responsive for the last couple of days but fortunately we all arrived before that.

So I do find the scenario with Rebecca plausible.

First, I'm so sorry for the loss of your mother - first cognitively, and then completely.  

I know this is a plausible scenario - my dad died at home of lung cancer.  All 4 adult children visited with him in the final days; the ones from out of state had to return to their homes before he actually passed away.  So it's not the kids "coming home to say goodbye" that I question.  There seems to be a lot of talk that Rebecca will die in that episode, while everyone is with her; I'm just not sure that's how the scene will play out.  

Edited April 12, 2022 by GeorgiaRai

[Empress1]

14 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

The fairytale that was Kophie was over at 20. They are not kids anymore and haven’t been for a long time. 

Love can come in many different forms. With MH, it was friendship that caught fire like Rebecca and Miguel. But it has to actually exist to the point where one can say “I love you” to the other person. Kevin had never, ever said it to Madison or about her. Even with faced with the news of her impending engagement to Elijah (which I was waiting for the trope/cliche of cliches for Kevin to have the sudden epiphany that “I do love her, I do, I do!), his response was (after a long pause) “I don’t know.” Either he does love her or he doesn’t. Kevin has such a desire to love and be loved that I’ve never seen him hold back feelings. That’s why I don’t believe he loves Madison as anything more than the mother of his children. And that’s not enough for him or her. Could that epiphany still come? Sure, but I won’t be buying it. 

Agreed on all counts. It would also be pretty self-destructive for Madison to ditch a guy she “really loves” and was beaming about and excited to marry for a guy who doesn’t love her when she expressly (and correctly, in my opinion) called off their wedding because he doesn’t love her.

And I agree with you - if he loved Madison he’d have said so. Kevin has never held back saying it to or about women he’s loved, literally since childhood. I remember with Zoe he told her he was falling in love with her and he seemed to be realizing it as he was saying it (so no hesitation). If anything he tends to come on too strong - remember his first date with Sophia Bush where he had John Legend play for them? He hasn’t told Madison he loves her because he doesn’t. A last minute “wait, I DO love her” wouldn’t be earned. “I don’t know [if I love her]” means “I don’t love her.” If you have to ask if you’re in love, you aren’t.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Empress1

[CountryGirl]

22 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Agreed on all counts. It would also be pretty self-destructive for Madison to ditch a guy she “really loves” and was beaming about and excited to marry for a guy who doesn’t love her when she expressly (and correctly, in my opinion) called off their wedding because he doesn’t love her.

And I agree with you - if he loved Madison he’d have said so. Kevin has never held back saying it to or about women he’s loved, literally since childhood. I remember with Zoe he told her he was falling in love with her and he seemed to be realizing it as he was saying it (so no hesitation). If anything he tends to come on too strong - remember his first date with Sophia Bush where he had John Legend play for them? He hasn’t told Madison he loves her because he doesn’t. A last minute “wait, I DO love her” wouldn’t be earned. “I don’t know [if I love her]” means “I don’t love her.” If you have to ask, you aren’t.

Yes to all of this. It doesn't have to be a "fireworks and sweeping violins" moment but it definitely has to happen. 

I also won't buy it if they do play the trope card, after all this time, of Kevin having the sudden realization that he does, in fact, love Madison as more than just the mother of the twins. 

Part of the reason is that the actress just doesn't do anything for me. There is zero chemistry with her and Kevin and I don't see much with Elijah. If she was supposed to be selling "excited" when she talked about Elijah's imminent proposal, I wasn't seeing it. I mean, she doesn't have to be Jessie Spano-levels of excitement but something more. 

I'm one who did see chemistry between Kevin and Sophie, even in moments where they say nothing at all, as well as with Zoe. With Madison, if there is such a thing as negative chemistry, that's what I see between them and again, I think some of that is the actress. 

[Empress1]

12 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Part of the reason is that the actress just doesn't do anything for me. There is zero chemistry with her and Kevin and I don't see much with Elijah. If she was supposed to be selling "excited" when she talked about Elijah's imminent proposal, I wasn't seeing it. I mean, she doesn't have to be Jessie Spano-levels of excitement but something more. 

I'm one who did see chemistry between Kevin and Sophie, even in moments where they say nothing at all, as well as with Zoe. With Madison, if there is such a thing as negative chemistry, that's what I see between them and again, I think some of that is the actress. 

I’ve never warmed to Madison and I don’t think the actress is very good either. She’s the showrunner’s wife so I’m not surprised her role expanded, but there has never been any there there for me.

I definitely saw chemistry between Kevin and Zoe - she’s my favorite of his exes. I love that she stuck to her guns about not wanting kids, but I liked the two of them together a lot. She challenged him and they seemed to have fun together - a big part of a relationship is just being able to chill and have fun, and they did. (I haven’t seen that with Kevin and Madison either.)

[PRgal]

19 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Yes to all of this. It doesn't have to be a "fireworks and sweeping violins" moment but it definitely has to happen. 

I also won't buy it if they do play the trope card, after all this time, of Kevin having the sudden realization that he does, in fact, love Madison as more than just the mother of the twins. 

Part of the reason is that the actress just doesn't do anything for me. There is zero chemistry with her and Kevin and I don't see much with Elijah. If she was supposed to be selling "excited" when she talked about Elijah's imminent proposal, I wasn't seeing it. I mean, she doesn't have to be Jessie Spano-levels of excitement but something more. 

I'm one who did see chemistry between Kevin and Sophie, even in moments where they say nothing at all, as well as with Zoe. With Madison, if there is such a thing as negative chemistry, that's what I see between them and again, I think some of that is the actress. 

I had to laugh at that line.  

[CountryGirl]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I’ve never warmed to Madison and I don’t think the actress is very good either. She’s the showrunner’s wife so I’m not surprised her role expanded, but there has never been any there there for me.

I definitely saw chemistry between Kevin and Zoe - she’s my favorite of his exes. I love that she stuck to her guns about not wanting kids, but I liked the two of them together a lot. She challenged him and they seemed to have fun together - a big part of a relationship is just being able to chill and have fun, and they did. (I haven’t seen that with Kevin and Madison either.)

Madison was fine as Kate's quirky, neurotic friend, sprinkled into the occasional episode. 

I have tried to warm to her, but where she lost me completely was that time she was grousing to Kevin about needing to wash her perfectly-coiffed hair because the kids got peanut butter and vomit in it and it was some of the fakest acting I have ever seen. 

[debraran]

24 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Madison was fine as Kate's quirky, neurotic friend, sprinkled into the occasional episode. 

I have tried to warm to her, but where she lost me completely was that time she was grousing to Kevin about needing to wash her perfectly-coiffed hair because the kids got peanut butter and vomit in it and it was some of the fakest acting I have ever seen. 

I wish there was an “ amen to that” button.  Felt the same. 

[Guest]

I didn't know until this thread yesterdayish that Madison's actor as married to the show runner but it makes so much sense.

[Spartan Girl]

Preview of tonight’s episode

Uh, Kate? Being nice to your son’s teacher shouldn’t affect how they treat him—they’re teachers, they’re supposed to treat every student the same. Don’t use that as an excuse to keep being late to marriage counseling. And the fact that she’s been late multiple times while expecting Toby to do the lion’s share of working on their marriage speaks volumes.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Empress1]

41 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Preview of tonight’s episode

Uh, Kate? Being nice to your son’s teacher shouldn’t affect how they treat him—they’re teachers, they’re supposed to treat every student the same. Don’t use that as an excuse to keep being late to marriage counseling. And the fact that she’s been late multiple times while expecting Toby to the lion’s share of working on their marriage speaks volumes.

I … really can’t stand her. As Toby pointed out, they’ve been going to counseling for six months, she knows how long it takes to get there. She does not have to chat up Jack’s teacher for 20 minutes (and maybe the teacher has other shit to do and doesn’t want to be in a 20-minute conversation with ONE parent at pickup time?). It is perfectly acceptable to say “I have to run, I have an appointment. See you tomorrow!” Therapy is expensive - she’s wasting money by being late, not to mention the rudeness. (Lateness is a pet peeve of mine.)

Also the way she talks about Toby as a father really bothers me. With the way she talks (“I am the only parent in this family, period”), she seems like she’d be the kind of divorced mom who tells her kids that their father wasn’t shit at every opportunity.

[chocolatine]

Unless the teacher has specific things they want to discuss about Jack's behavior or development - in which case they should schedule a meeting with both parents - what else  needs to be said at pickup other than "hi," "bye," and "thank you?"

[Spartan Girl]

It would be really nice if, after Toby walks out, the therapist calls out Kate on some of this crap. Please, show, at least give us that much.

[Dreamboat Annie]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:07 PM, JKL845 said:

Sophie didn't give up her dreams to follow Kevin's.

No, she sure didn't.  Nor would she have.  But that didn't stop her from trying to get Kevin to give up on his.  

[statsgirl]

36 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It would be really nice if, after Toby walks out, the therapist calls out Kate on some of this crap. Please, show, at least give us that much.

That's really what the therapist needs to do. It's not just playing games with Toby to always be late, it's disrespectful to the therapist.

[Mrs Shibbles]

Someone has to call Kate out on her crap. It’s ridiculous.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Mrs Shibbles

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

It would be really nice if, after Toby walks out, the therapist calls out Kate on some of this crap. Please, show, at least give us that much.

If the therapist did that, the ghost of Jack would haunt her forever so I doubt the show will go there.

[Rootbeer]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Preview of tonight’s episode

Uh, Kate? Being nice to your son’s teacher shouldn’t affect how they treat him—they’re teachers, they’re supposed to treat every student the same. Don’t use that as an excuse to keep being late to marriage counseling. And the fact that she’s been late multiple times while expecting Toby to do the lion’s share of working on their marriage speaks volumes.

Didn't the showrunner insist that this episode shows us how hard Kate and Toby work to try to save their marriage?  By repeatedly showing up late for counseling?  I am sure that there is plenty of opportunity for Kate to talk to Jack's teacher at other times, doesn't she work at his school?  The 'I needed to talk to Jack's teacher for 20 minutes instead of being on time for my appointment' excuse is BS.  I don't know how we can watch that scene and believe that Kate has any interest whatsoever in trying to save the marriage.

ETA:  Is PMJ Jack's teacher?  Are we somehow supposed to realize that he is Kate's OTL because she blows off marriage counseling to chat with him instead?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

That's really what the therapist needs to do. It's not just playing games with Toby to always be late, it's disrespectful to the therapist.

I just had to reschedule a doctor’s appointment because I was late, and of course I did, because I’m not the only patient the doctor was seeing that day - and I was late through no fault of my own (accident gumming up the works). I rushed in all “I’m so sorry, can she still see me?” They told me maybe but not for at least two hours, which didn’t work with my day so I rescheduled, apologetically. It is completely disrespectful of the therapists’s time for a patient to consistently be late. If Kate HAS to talk to Jack’s teacher for 20 minutes every day (which, what?) then she needs to not schedule therapy close to pickup time. Her time is no more important than Toby’s or the therapist’s.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Empress1

[debraran]

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Unless the teacher has specific things they want to discuss about Jack's behavior or development - in which case they should schedule a meeting with both parents - what else  needs to be said at pickup other than "hi," "bye," and "thank you?"

This is beyond stupid. She has to talk to the teacher or she's mean or ignores their son? Who is writing this tripe? Why is Dan making Kate so unlikable? Singing with Philip in another scene, please, is the whole 40 minutes going to be her? How is Sophie supposed to be at wedding next week or even a wedding at all. I don't get the segue yet but this session pales in comparison to Kevin's. He acknowledged his failures but Kate seems to think Toby just has to change. I  hope upon hope, they have the therapist call out her bad and obnoxious behavior but I doubt it.

Edited April 12, 2022 by debraran

[debraran]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

If the therapist did that, the ghost of Jack would haunt her forever so I doubt the show will go there.

God help me but I wanted to slap her then...and I'm not a violent person. I forgive Rebecca. She's insufferable.

[Pallas]

I think in the Pin the Tail on the Donkey box is a letter Rebecca wrote, with words for all of them. Including Toby, Sophie, Madison, Nicky and each grandchild. And some time ago, she gave Randall the job of wrangling them all to be together to hear it with her still there, at home and not with others at a wake or funeral. 

[debraran]

35 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I think in the Pin the Tail on the Donkey box is a letter Rebecca wrote, with words for all of them. Including Toby, Sophie, Madison, Nicky and each grandchild. And some time ago, she gave Randall the job of wrangling them all to be together to hear it with her still there, at home and not with others at a wake or funeral. 

Why chalk? That confused me