S01.E15: Destiny

[mrspidey]

Game of Thrones: Kill off Jon Snow and follow up on it with a one-year PR stunt unsucessfully trying to convince everyone he won't be coming back.

Legends of Tomorrow: Kill off Snart and follow up on it by anouncing him as a series regular on the combined Arrowverse for next season.

I gotta say, I prefer CW's approch.

[squidprincess]

10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think Sara/Snart came out of nowhere. Snart has not been shy about his crush on Sara since the first episode. Sara wasn't as open at first because she was dealing with trying to feel like an alive person again. I think her kissing him was her acknowledging that they had grown closer and maybe something could've happened in the future, but he's sacrificing himself for the team and they will never get a chance to explore that "what if". 

I think this is probably a YMMV kind of thing.  I liked their platonic relationship, but I didn't see enough for me to interpret anything romantic until this last episode.  (I saw mutual attraction, but I see mutual attraction between most of the members of the cast.  They're a good looking cast.).  It felt strange to me that they're both suddenly willing to acknowledge their feelings even before Snart's sacrifice.  But obviously, other people disagree or Captain Canary wouldn't be such a popular ship. :-)

Edited May 13, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

That why I was saying it wasn't necessarily romantic.

It was a we like each other and like hanging out together, is there more here? Then never getting to explore it because one of them died. There was no love connection, just two people acknowledging their chemistry and what that meant. This was probably the best written and realistic "love" connection on any of the DCCW shows. There wasn't a in your face will they/won't they crap, both characters were just open and honest about their feelings. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Sakura12

[MissLucas]

Did anyone understand all the time-travel-occulus-whatever shenanigans in this episode? I sure as hell didn't.

So, season two means more Hawkpeople - less Snart and Savage still around? Since I can get my Snart-kick in the other Arrowverse shows that I prefer anyway I'm out.

[dkb]

15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Snart, noooo!  Can't believe that just happened, although it does sound like it might have been to give Wentworth Miller time to do Prison Break, along with appearing in the DC Universe (curious that they didn't need to do that for Dominic Purcell, unless Mick's absence in the middle of the season was for that.)  I'm sure he'll be back in some form, but I really am majorly bummed that Snart will no longer be part of the team.  His one-liners were great and I loved his interactions with everyone like Ray, Mick, and Sarah.  It just won't be the same without him.

That said, I did like that his sacrifice really shook up everyone.  They frankly seemed way more upset over it then they ever were with Carter, which is totally understandable (to be fair, I suspect that was because the team had just formed when that happened.)  Mick's reaction was sad.  Again, I know Dominic Purcell isn't the greatest, but I actually think he's doing really good work here.  His final scene with Ray was awesome, especially since it kind of bookend his earlier one, where he was the one giving Ray a pep-talk.

 

 

8 hours ago, Delphi said:

Really team?   You don't have duct tape to just tape the fail safe down?   You people are supposed to be clever,  I mean not Rip,  but everyone else. 

Honestly,  I wish it had been Mick instead of Lenny.   I'm not really into Mick and I think it would have been nice to him have gone full circle and save the team instead of trying to kill them.  I will that "there are no strings on me" is a pretty good exit line.   

 

I would have been fine with it being Mick as well. I love Ray and Snart more. I actually had some stupid tears in my eyes at his "death" (yes, I know these are fictional people lol)

I'm glad to see more of the Mick and Ray friendship though.

15 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Something very strange happened this episode. I... really really enjoyed it. Like, a lot.

And then at the end it cut back to Kendra and Savage and I realised why I'd enjoyed it so much - because they hadn't been near it.

Yep, I had the same feeling about Kendra. She wasn't in it that much and I enjoyed the episode a lot more than usual. 

[Sakura12]

Here's Caity having fun with the shippers. 

[johntfs]

I thought it should have been Mick.  "Ain't no strings on me" would have been a great line for him, too and the idea of Mick Rory, Time Arsonist would have been cool.  Plus Regular/Flarrowverse thing with Snart could still have happened.

On the other hand I now have fantasies of Snart somehow winding up dealing with Jennifer Goines from 12 Monkeys.

Edited May 13, 2016 by johntfs

[MDKNIGHT]

I liked it overall but like many will miss Snart.  Glad he's not dead forever dead.  I can't help fantasizing that the time vortex gizmo blowing up just shifted him into an alternate universe.  A universe where a crazy guy in a fez is traveling through time and space  in a blue police box with a Scottish chick and Rip Hunter's more competent alter self.  Now I want to write that fic. 

I don't mind Kendra and she had a good moment when she tried to fight the guards.  I'm OK either way fi she continues on the show but I agree with the Vandal haters.  I want  a supervillain to either be charismatic or really scary.  Sometimes they can be both but Vandal is neither in my opinion.  All I could think was of so many big bads that might have been at least theoretically a strong choice if it was them or annihilation by alien.  Seriously I can think of minor villains that I could put forth a good argument would at least do a good job saving earth if put in that position but this dolt?  Off the top of my head (and I don't know which characters are DC and which are Marvel so please don't say "but that's from the wrong universe") I would say handing power to Dr Doom or the Penguin would at least make sense.  Each are clever enough that they could come up with a plan to defeat the aliens.  Savage despite being alive for thousands of years doesn't seem to have evolved much beyond Neanderthal bully.

[Lokiberry]

Honestly, I don't think it's because Savage was the wrong villain. Loki was by no means the biggest bad in Marvel; it's was the casting of Tom Hiddleston that made it work. Choosing Casper Crump was were it all went wrong. A more charismatic actor might have made the difference.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, Casper Crump was a huge casting mistake. :(

[Lantern7]

I think Crump might have looked better with superior material.

Forgot about the strings line from Snart. Nice that a DC show would openly rip off Disney/Marvel.

[Snorfbat]

12 hours ago, Delphi said:

Really team?   You don't have duct tape to just tape the fail safe down?

Or perhaps some type of gun that could FREEZE it in place.

[Cthulhudrew]

Does this show even bother trying to keep track of its own storylines (other than Kendra's romance, that is)? What happened to the whole "kidnapping our past selves to keep them from being exterminated, but oops- those timelines are starting to crystallize and if we don't hurry, we'll cease to exist"? Seems to me that really big problem is still hanging out there, and it doesn't look like it's any big concern.

At least we got an explanation why Rip sucks as a time master- it was by design, so that the other time masters- who are now revealed to be fully in control of everything- could manipulate him. Trying to write off bad writing by interjecting a Xanatos Gambit doesn't really work. 

My hope is that by getting rid of this Oculus Rift stuff, we'll at least get away from the slapdash time travel "rules" they kept trying to convince us were a thing all season long. Just write some good stories.

[MarkHB]

One thing that I saw elsewhere that I didn't pick up on... when Sara and Snart sabotaged all the ships to make their Gideons (or whatever its name is) start singing "Love will Keep Us Together..." that was the song Sara was dancing to back in the 70's episode at the start of the season, when she asked Snart if he wanted to dance and he said he'd just watch her.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Legends Of Tomorrow Seize Their Own Destiny

But doing so comes at a very high price.

[ketose]

First, did any one else remember that Karen Gillan was in a movie called Oculus?

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Did anyone understand all the time-travel-occulus-whatever shenanigans in this episode? I sure as hell didn't.

So, season two means more Hawkpeople - less Snart and Savage still around? Since I can get my Snart-kick in the other Arrowverse shows that I prefer anyway I'm out.

This concept is similar to the movie "Paycheck." An Engineer built a device that used optics to allow someone to see light bend around the universe to the point where you could see the future. In any case, he used it to see what was going to happen (bad) and then used the future viewing to plan an escape (good). The idea is that if you have the machine that sees the future, you are the one with free will. Everyone else lacks that advantage. If that device is taken away, everyone has free will, or the illusion of it, again.

My take on the Rip Hunter as patsy theory is that the Council could not go back in time and change things and they didn't trust other Time Masters to do it either if they knew they'd be installing Vandal Savage. They needed the Time Masters to think Rip went rogue, so that they could go about their regular business while paving the way for Savage. Personally, I think the Time Masters involved were lazy and Savage convinced them that authoritarianism was the only possible solution. Obviously, the Legends of Tomorrow will stop the invasion, barring series cancellation.

My fear is that the LoT will be chasing Savage and his time ship forever. If that's the case, I may have to bail out of this show. I've had my fill of mass murdering supervillains. I'm looking at you too, Arrow. 

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, ketose said:

First, did any one else remember that Karen Gillan was in a movie called Oculus?

This concept is similar to the movie "Paycheck." An Engineer built a device that used optics to allow someone to see light bend around the universe to the point where you could see the future. In any case, he used it to see what was going to happen (bad) and then used the future viewing to plan an escape (good). The idea is that if you have the machine that sees the future, you are the one with free will. Everyone else lacks that advantage. If that device is taken away, everyone has free will, or the illusion of it, again.

My take on the Rip Hunter as patsy theory is that the Council could not go back in time and change things and they didn't trust other Time Masters to do it either if they knew they'd be installing Vandal Savage. They needed the Time Masters to think Rip went rogue, so that they could go about their regular business while paving the way for Savage. Personally, I think the Time Masters involved were lazy and Savage convinced them that authoritarianism was the only possible solution. Obviously, the Legends of Tomorrow will stop the invasion, barring series cancellation.

 

Thanks for the explanation but I still don't think that whole things survives closer scrutiny. Why not manipulate the Thanagarian time-line so these freaks have better things to do than invade alien planets? Or manipulate our time-line so that once the invasion takes place humanity is ready to deal with it because humans have managed to overcome their internal conflicts and are prepared for such an attack? In the time-line the Council created humanity has been weakened by the wars Savage had started so Savage being the only one able to deal with the invasion is ouroboros logic. Yeah, I know - this whole show is not worth even typing the words 'Occam's razor' but it still bugs that so little effort was made to create a halfway stringent plot logic.

[ketose]

28 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Thanks for the explanation but I still don't think that whole things survives closer scrutiny. Why not manipulate the Thanagarian time-line so these freaks have better things to do than invade alien planets? Or manipulate our time-line so that once the invasion takes place humanity is ready to deal with it because humans have managed to overcome their internal conflicts and are prepared for such an attack? In the time-line the Council created humanity has been weakened by the wars Savage had started so Savage being the only one able to deal with the invasion is ouroboros logic. Yeah, I know - this whole show is not worth even typing the words 'Occam's razor' but it still bugs that so little effort was made to create a halfway stringent plot logic.

Do we know that the Time Masters have the power to go to Thanagar and manipulate their time line? I assume that the Council started by viewing a time line where Savage was killed early on and Earth was still destroyed. To your point, they manipulated the time line so that Savage could develop weapons (metahumans) and humanity overcame their internal conflicts because they were united in being Savage's slaves. The Time Masters employed the Nazi theory, where the leadership was evil but highly effective as a military force. Star Trek's "Patterns of Force" is a good example of that.

I'd hate to agree with Ray Palmer, but I believe there is another way to save the future. That's why I wrote that the Time Masters were lazy. A solution without Vandal Savage was probably a lot more complicated and they just gave up trying scenarios and went with him.

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

I'd hate to agree with Ray Palmer, but I believe there is another way to save the future. That's why I wrote that the Time Masters were lazy. A solution without Vandal Savage was probably a lot more complicated and they just gave up trying scenarios and went with him.

I do think that's a large part of it. They probably looked at several scenarios, and when they found one that worked (ie Savage ruling the world makes it strong enough to survive the invasion) the Council settled on that solution. Even if they found others that might work, this was probably the one which required the least manipulating of time. We just need to make sure Savage survives, or comes back.

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, ketose said:

Do we know that the Time Masters have the power to go to Thanagar and manipulate their time line?

Why shouldn't they be able to do that? So far there has been no indication that their ships range is limited at all. And why should they not be able to manipulate another race's time line - they've already done that by apparently thwarting the Thanagarians invasion when backing up Savage.

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Why shouldn't they be able to do that? So far there has been no indication that their ships range is limited at all. And why should they not be able to manipulate another race's time line - they've already done that by apparently thwarting the Thanagarians invasion when backing up Savage.

The Oculus may be specifically focused on Earth/human history.  At the very least, that's all we've seen through it.  And the Time Masters don't seem to have involved themselves in space exploration or anything like that.  If humans haven't had any grand scale interaction with the Thanagarians before the invasion, then the Time Masters may not have had the opportunity to manipulate Thanagar like they've been doing to Earth.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Why shouldn't they be able to do that? So far there has been no indication that their ships range is limited at all. And why should they not be able to manipulate another race's time line - they've already done that by apparently thwarting the Thanagarians invasion when backing up Savage.

 

Let me ask a question in response to your question. If the Time Masters COULD do that, why wouldn't they do THAT instead of messing with Savage at all? If they could thwart an alien invasion simply by making the aliens not invade, wouldn't they? Instead of twisting and turning Earth's history in order to back the one guy who might be able to fight them off?

[MissLucas]

39 minutes ago, KirkB said:

 

Let me ask a question in response to your question. If the Time Masters COULD do that, why wouldn't they do THAT instead of messing with Savage at all? If they could thwart an alien invasion simply by making the aliens not invade, wouldn't they? Instead of twisting and turning Earth's history in order to back the one guy who might be able to fight them off?

Well we could assume that the Time Masters are in fact restricted in such manner and that the writing therefore makes complete sense (although it forces us into logical contortions) or we could simply call it a case of Fridge Logic and move on.

[tennisgurl]

I am most certainly NOT crying! Your crying! Stop looking at me like that! 

I know that Snart is not really dead for real, but I am really going to miss him on this show, if he never comes back. I can live with him being a reoccurring character on Flash and popping up here sometimes, and around the CW verse, but I loved knowing I could look forward to him and his snark on a weekly basis. Either way, he was/is a great character, and I need to see him again. Hopefully with Sara. I know they could have built it up better, but man did I ship the crap out of them. They just seemed to get each other, and I do think they built up a consistent connection between them, one that I always loved seeing. Poor Sara. First she losses Leonard, and next week she finds out about Laurel. Why must she suffer so much? 

This episode just proves how pointless the Hawks are to this whole thing. Everyone gets a badass moment or something funny or heartwarming, with the actors all playing the hell out of their parts...while the Hawks are prisoners in the background somewhere, being useless. I did not miss them with the group at all. If we could just get rid of them, bring back Snart, and find a better villain (or just have the gang travel around time, doing random good and fighting time bandits or something), we could have a really good show here. 

I am also amused by the fact that the gangs incompetence was an actual plot point.

I would be interested if the gang sees an earlier version of Snart, and how they react to seeing him knowing what will happen to him. I did really like the scene where everyone reacted to his death ( or "death"). They all seemed devastated. I wonder if someone will tell Lisa? Or Barry? After all the pep talks Barry gave him about how he could tell he was a good guy deep down, that could be an interesting scene.

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 5/13/2016 at 2:55 AM, patchwork said:

 

The Thanagarians does pretty much guarantee the Hawkes sticking around for season 2 unless the invasion is somehow thwarted in the remaining episodes. I can't say I'm a fan of that idea which is a shame because initially I was very excited about Shiera/Hawkgirl, I loved the cartoon version. I can't see Mick hanging around for long without Snart which would only leave Sara as a character I enjoy watching.

I can't wait until the next season when the alien invaders are defeated and someone proclaims "that they thwarted the Thangarians."

6 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Why shouldn't they be able to do that? So far there has been no indication that their ships range is limited at all. And why should they not be able to manipulate another race's time line - they've already done that by apparently thwarting the Thanagarians invasion when backing up Savage.

The timeships like the Waverider easily traverse time AND space -- so why couldn't they wander over the to the Thanagarians home world and guide them in the direction they want.  I don't see the TimeMasters actually wanting a Thanagarian invasion of Earth.

[kieyra]

Sorry to ask the obvious, but is Wentworth Miller really leaving the show? He's about 75% of the reason I watch.

[MarkHB]

Miller has a new 

38 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Sorry to ask the obvious, but is Wentworth Miller really leaving the show? He's about 75% of the reason I watch.

Spoiler

Miller has a new contract for next season that will call for him to float among the shows, so he'll probably be hitting everything but Riverdale.

[jhlipton]

On 5/13/2016 at 6:10 PM, Sakura12 said:

IKendra was still useless. 

Even when fighting the guards, she did a half-assed job.

On 5/13/2016 at 7:05 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I just need Savage to die, even if he takes Kendra and Carter with him.

I think you mean especially if he takes Kendra and Carter with him.

On 5/13/2016 at 11:45 PM, henripootel said:

They do keep flirting with having interesting ideas but then they do stupid shit like having Snart die when they could have just jammed a stick in there to hold the button down.  Or used the freeze gun to cold-weld it in place.  Whatever - if Snart is really gone, so am I.

Freezing (or welding) the fail-safe was my idea too.

On 5/13/2016 at 11:56 PM, thuganomics85 said:

No surprise, I didn't miss either Kendra or Carter in the slightest, during the final battle.  They really are useless.

They really are.  I hope they kill Savage in the finale, then go off to Off-Screen-Ville.

[MDKNIGHT]

Maybe the Time Masters are just evil.  Maybe they are corrupt and Savage is giving them something (money, power) under the table.  Sometimes the most basic answer is the truth.  Savage may have provided something that pleases the TIme Masters themselves.  Why should we believe these guys are altruistic?  Here's a thought, what if the alternate timeline that did not involve Savage being the world's dictator also led to the disbanding of the Time Masters and they don't want to give up the power?

Edited May 15, 2016 by MDKNIGHT

[KirkB]

While freezing the fail safe might have worked (assuming the cold gun could make the ice in the precise space and weight to keep the button held down, it was partway into the machine as I recall) the problem is if they had freeze welded it and run one of the Time Masters could conceivably have walked into the room and simply melted or chipped away the ice. They needed someone like Rory or Snart there to hold it AND fight off the Time Masters forces, defending the fail safe and giving the others a chance to escape.

Edited May 15, 2016 by KirkB

[ketose]

3 hours ago, MDKNIGHT said:

Maybe the Time Masters are just evil.  Maybe they are corrupt and Savage is giving them something (money, power) under the table.  Sometimes the most basic answer is the truth.  Savage may have provided something that pleases the TIme Masters themselves.  Why should we believe these guys are altruistic?  Here's a thought, what if the alternate timeline that did not involve Savage being the world's dictator also led to the disbanding of the Time Masters and they don't want to give up the power?

I really hope not, that would make even less sense. What are the Time Masters going to do with stuff when they spend most of their time at The Vanishing Point AND they can go anywhere in the past with knowledge of the future? The other problem is that if the Time Masters were disbanded, they wouldn't know about it because they can't see what happens inside The Vanishing Point.

[henripootel]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

While freezing the fail safe might have worked (assuming the cold gun could make the ice in the precise space and weight to keep the button held down, it was partway into the machine as I recall) the problem is if they had freeze welded it and run one of the Time Masters could conceivably have walked into the room and simply melted or chipped away the ice. They needed someone like Rory or Snart there to hold it AND fight off the Time Masters forces, defending the fail safe and giving the others a chance to escape.

Didn't look like Snart did any sort of 'fighting off' anyone, just held the button and quipped.  I'm gonna assume the cold gun can do whatever they want it to do, and my guess is that it'd take longer to chip away the ice than it would to simply shoot Snart.  I know that they wanted us to think Snart's sacrifice was totally necessary, but there's no real reason to believe it actually was.  Just another bit of dumb, hackneyed writing.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

Here's a curious thought -- TimeMaster Druce said that the Oculus viewing chamber was only known to the high council, and that no Captain knew of it.

Yet somehow Gideon knew about it, because when Rip asks Gideon about changes in the timeline Gideon indicated that with the Oculus destroyed it could no longer read the timeline.  Which means that the Oculus was the source of Gideon's information all along. So how come Gideon never told Rip about the Oculus.

In Rip's vision when his hand touched the Oculus, there were numerous clips of previous episodes, but also mixed in were clips of an atomic bomb exploding, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, an A-10 Warthog, and a battleship broadside.  And some of the clips were running backwards.  Weird.

[squidprincess]

2 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Yet somehow Gideon knew about it, because when Rip asks Gideon about changes in the timeline Gideon indicated that with the Oculus destroyed it could no longer read the timeline.  Which means that the Oculus was the source of Gideon's information all along. So how come Gideon never told Rip about the Oculus.

In Rip's vision when his hand touched the Oculus, there were numerous clips of previous episodes, but also mixed in were clips of an atomic bomb exploding, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, an A-10 Warthog, and a battleship broadside.  And some of the clips were running backwards.  Weird.

He knew Gideon's information/the timestream data came from somewhere.  It just sounds like no one but the Time Council knew the exact source.  Or that the "source" was a device that could also manipulate as well as read the timestream.  Gideon may have been programmed to just receive the signal, rather than knowing any data about the source.

It also occurs to me that by taking the time to destroy the oculus/stop the time masters for good, Rip gave up the best chance he had to save his family.  Now that Savage has a time machine, it's likely that whenever they kill him next, it will be after he'd killed Miranda and Jonas.

Edited May 15, 2016 by squidprincess

[Lii]

3 hours ago, ketose said:

I really hope not, that would make even less sense. What are the Time Masters going to do with stuff when they spend most of their time at The Vanishing Point AND they can go anywhere in the past with knowledge of the future? The other problem is that if the Time Masters were disbanded, they wouldn't know about it because they can't see what happens inside The Vanishing Point.

Except yes they can, because they saw Ray die. Whoops. 

[tarotx]

I guess they didn't know the source of the timeline peek was the Oculus until they knew there was an Oculus. And I imagine that the cold gun might not work without something holding the lever to freeze into place? Welding would work in real-world but perhaps this was some kind of fail-safe that was requiring a hand holding it into place?

I just have this feeling that they wanted Snart to choose to be a hero so that when it's wipe away and he's returned to 2016 like nothing on Legends happened, we'd be a bit sad that his journey and relationships are wiped. (Just a theory of mine base on comic readers saying Snart will just return to 2016 like nothing happened).  

[squidprincess]

16 minutes ago, Lii said:

Except yes they can, because they saw Ray die. Whoops. 

Ray didn't die though.  And Druce had told Rip that the future that the Oculus showed was THE future.  Immutable.  So...it seems like the Time Masters may not have the complete understanding of time that they think they do.  :-)

[henripootel]

Quote

So...it seems like the Time Masters may not have the complete understanding of time that they think they do.  :-)

True, or the writers don't.  So the Oculus is the future, but can also be used to change the future (to whatever the Time Lords want).  The Vanishing Point exists outside of time (which is cool) so it can't be McFly'd into non-existence by tampering with the timeline so ... why do the Time Lords care so much?  Their existence is assured, no reason for them to protect anything.  If they need somebody to defeat the alien invasion of earth they know is coming, why not take Subutai out of time, train him for a few generations like they did with Rory but to basically be Ender Wiggin, then arm him with super-advanced technology?  They want earth to win, why not stack the deck?  Better to let some murdering immortal asshole do the job cuz "that's what 'really' happened"?  Who cares?  The Time Lords literally have nothing to lose here.

I don't think the writers have a clear mandate about what the rules of this universe are, either that or they can't be bothered to follow them.

Edited May 15, 2016 by henripootel

[Lokiberry]

Quote

either that or they can't be bothered to follow them.

Ding, ding,ding, we have a winner!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Should Stein still have existed in 2016 when Jefferson went back in time?  His baby self had been removed from the timeline and was with Rip's "mom,"  which is why Clarissa didn't remember Stein when the Pilgrim took her (also from 2016).  Of course, the Jefferson who was yet to be roofied shouldn't still exist in 2016 since he was taken, too.  In fact, everyone except Kendra and Rip were removed from the timeline before 2016, but we were specifically told that Clarissa did not know Stein, the same as if he had been killed, instead of removed.  I would think that only his bereft parents would have had any memory of him.  I'm willing to accept that the time travelling versions still exist, for the time being, but unless there are alternate timelines....

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Rip prudently shrank Ray down in order to get him away quickly after Mick knocked him out. How the heck did Sara manage to get Mick away after Leonard knocked him out?

Also, why doesn't Ray always shrink down and hide himself whenever the group seeks to take action?  Then, if there is an ambush, he might not be instantly defeated or trapped with everyone else.  Isn't that the whole point of being able to shrink, that he do just that?

[Sakura12]

I'm going to just fanwank that Firestorm went in to help Sara drag Mick out of there. 

[henripootel]

Quote

I'm going to just fanwank that Firestorm went in to help Sara drag Mick out of there. 

I too wondered how they dragged Mick's large ass away, and why this made tactical sense.  What is the minimal safe distance for when a time core blows up?  Is there one? How the hell did they know?

Edited May 16, 2016 by henripootel

[jhlipton]

8 hours ago, henripootel said:

I know that they wanted us to think Snart's sacrifice was totally necessary, but there's no real reason to believe it actually was.  Just another bit of dumb, hackneyed writing.  

At least this example of "an actor is not going to be available most of next season" didn't ruin his character or destroy what the show had been about unlike Sleepy Hollow.  The writers had to remove Snart from the plot, and this was a fairly decent way to do it.   The Prison Break movie did make Snart's sacrifice necessary, on a "meta" level at least.

[ohjoy]

16 hours ago, jhlipton said:

At least this example of "an actor is not going to be available most of next season" didn't ruin his character or destroy what the show had been about unlike Sleepy Hollow.  The writers had to remove Snart from the plot, and this was a fairly decent way to do it.   The Prison Break movie did make Snart's sacrifice necessary, on a "meta" level at least.

Having never watched Prison Break maybe there's something obvious I'm missing, but I've seen this line of thought several times and have to ask -- why Prison Break necessitate this plot twist for Snart only, when Dominic Purcell is the other brother, and therefore the other lead of the revival? They need both actors who play Snart and Mick, so why would LoT need to kill only one of them off for the sake of the revival?

[Sakura12]

Well, Mick could still die in the finale. 

I don't think Wentworth left because of the Prison Break, it sounds this was his deal in the beginning casting process. He always knew he was temporary on LoT with or without the Prison Break revival.  

[Starfish35]

I don't think Mick's going anywhere.  In that video you posted in another thread with one of the writers, 

Spoiler

she was talking about stuff with Mick in season two.  So I think he's staying.

I agree that this doesn't have anything to do with the Prison Break revival though.  It sounds like this was just what WM wanted.  All I'm hoping for now is that whenever and wherever Snart reappears, they don't completely reset his character development.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I'm hoping that too. I'd rather Snart be lost in the time or something. Instead of reverting back to the cold hearted bastard we first met. I like the change in him and Mick. They will still kill you if you cross them, but now they will also kill you if you mess with their team.

[juliet73]

Is it written somewhere in WM's agent agreement that he has to do the same things in future projects that he did in Prison Break? Working with Dom, breaking out of prison in Resident Evil, Captain Cold sacrificing himself like Scofield sacrificing himself in The Final Break. 

I really wish it was Heatwave that got killed off or better yet, the Hawks and Vandal Savage. 

Is it just me, or does anyone else think of the Time Council scene in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" whenever they show Rip standing in the center of the room with time masters?

I started watching this show for WM, but I think I'm out for season 2. The writing isn't strong enough and the Hawks and Vandal Savage (characters and actors) really bring the show down.

[Lii]

The really worrisome thing about WM dying is that it makes it far more unlikely that we'll get another hero side death this season, so, probably no Hawkpeople getting shot into the sun. :(

I guess the best we can hope for is them deciding to settle down somewhere else and leaving the team of their own accord. Seriously, they need to do this thing. Because if we lose Cold AND end up stuck with the goddamn Hawkpeople, I swear I will be flipping tables. I mean, I don't have any tables near my television, and I'm pretty lazy, so I probably won't get up or anything, but I will definitely be mentally flipping tables.