S02.E13: The Coup

[OnceSane]

Frankie and Grace receive surprise gifts from Babe that open new horizons for each of them.  Sol reveals a long-held secret at Bud's birthday party.

[AuntieMame]

I really love this show. I know the end was intended to be a moment of taking back your power for Grace and Frankie, but it worked for me. Partially for personal reasons, but mostly because it was nice to finally see the issues of lying and betrayal on the daily, cumulative level that Robert and Sol perpetrated addressed with some heat. I thought the box of bulk gifts was brilliant and summed up the coldness of Grace and Robert's lies to themselves and each other perfectly. To me, Sol is even worse, because he and Frankie did have genuine warmth and intimacy in their marriage as has been shown over the two seasons. How do you respond when you learn that the person you're supposed to be closest to turns out to be lying to you every minute? The adultery is the least of it; looking back on the daily secrets and lies would enrage me. 

I have to give it to the Boomers and late silent generation in that they are consistently giving usnarratives about people in all stages of life. Let's hope the trend continues.

[Chaos Theory]

I thought this was a great end to the season.  The bottom finally dropped out from even the memory of better happier times with their husbands.  Nothing had ever been what they believed it to be.  I think that was in fact what both women needed.  The knowledge that there were no happier times when their husbands loved them.  I always did think Sol's betrayal was worse because he did have a happy life with Frankie and for Frankie to find out how much of a liar Sol actually is is something she needed to hear.  Even Grace thought there was some real emotion to her marriage and to find out there never was, although it made sense with what we already knew about their relationship, was tough to hear.

[AuntieMame]

I agree that it set Grace and Frankie free and that might be part if what was so powerful about the episode. Best of all, a lot of what happened is freeing the women from feeling that their husbands didn't live them because they were unlovable. I know that I would at least question my own worth in their situation. And Frankie's marriage was that much muddier because there was genuine affection and companionship. 

Robert buying all of that jewelry like it was a choice? Just devastating. And Sol essentially said that he never thought Frankie would get recognition for her work by buying her off with a lie. I dont find these men sympathetic at all. And in the past I have theoretically sympathized with gay or bisexual people who felt they had to marry to survive in society. But these two are just irredeemable. Yes, the right to marry is recent, but twenty year ago puts us at 1995? Gay people lived as committed couples at that time. Yes, it might have damaged their law practice in the short run, but they could have survived, especially as gay people have always quietly supported gay businesses. Their motives are just bad no matter how you slice it. 

I know that we're getting Grace portrayed as cold, but to me Robert is the cold fish among all of them. Grace has strong emotions that she represses because they scare her. Robert is a cold hypocrite. Look how he reacted to Sol when the cheating shoe was on the other foot. And Sol's infidelity was at least understandable. 

I have mixed feelings about the children too. Brianna is occasionally written over the top. Her repeated joke about wanting the jewelry was overdone. At other times, she is relatable and very clearly a product of booth her parents. I think when Brianna is used as a comedic vehicle is where the writing breaks down....writers trying too hard. The pregnant daughter is sanctimonious and I think her husband is cheating on her, but that she would have queried her mother too....Sol and Robert had plenty of reasons to not be completely honest with her and they weren't because to do so would have revealed the depths of their own perfidy.

I tend to like Bud in all his codependent glory and Coyote is a feckless cliché. 

The ending was good. I would love another season, but if we don't get one, I know that Grace and Frankie are OK. Another thought, these women are seventy, wouldn't they also be furious that these men had wasted their lives? Seriously. Illness and death await and the tons of good looking, healthy single people are only a television reality. I would be enraged. 

[RCharter]

Poor Bud.  I really like that they have not made the character stereotypical, but I think in that effort they have made him so good that the character has very little depth.  Next season, I'd like to see this girl he was having over (who is this girl?  why can't she meet the rest of the family??), or see him working through a tough case, or even connecting with his birth parents.

He is just always the most understanding and the most charitable of children.  I was surprised he was allowed to make a fuss about his 8 th birthday party being overtaken by family drama.

I'm not a fan of Brianna this season, I think she was more relateable last season.  Now she just seems mean spirited to me.

The other daughter is barely there, but she seems alright.  I like Coyote, I think he is the most well-written of the children.

Other than that, I liked the ending.  The acting is so amazing from Tomlin and Fonda.

I know if I were Grace I would be super peeved,  she passed up a really great guy because she wanted to be faithful in her marriage....just to find out that her husband had been having an affair on her.

[possibilities]

I love this show for many reasons, but one of them is that even when they resort to a well-worn cinematic cliche, I am still able to feel it. That mic dropping ending was in every possible way a paint by numbers device, and yet I bought it. That they manage to make character and plot tropes feel earned and real, and I'm not bored even when I see exactly where everything is headed 12 steps before it happens, is unusual and makes the rest of the media landscape look quite pathetic by comparison.

[pivot]

Man, I loved this season and especially the finale. I would have loved Grace calling her children out as well. They are such assholes to Grace. Poor Grace doesn't have anyone besides Frankie. At least Frankie's children love and like her.

[OnceSane]

This was an utterly satisfying season finale.  I thought the gifts from Babe were perfect and I'm glad those gifts led Grace and Frankie to take back their agency.  I loved both of them going off on their families because their (G&F) contributions were often ignored or minimized by those who claim to love them.

[possibilities]

I think Grace did call out her children-- she pointed out that they think she has no valuable advice or insight to offer despite having experience with the very things they're struggling with (business issues, Frankie-management, and possibly unfaithful partner)-- calling her just a dupe and evading her in general.

I think there's some implication that she might have been a tough and unaffectionate parent, but it's hard to see Robert as being any better, so for them to ally with him is unexplained. And, too, seeing how she was with her grandkids, she doesn't come across as a total cold fish, just not the kind of softie that grossly overindulges or that kids identify with as one of them, when they are very young. But they seemed to like and trust her well enough, so I don't think we've seen any indication that Grace is a complete failure with kids, and earned their total contempt.

[AuntieMame]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think Grace did call out her children-- she pointed out that they think she has no valuable advice or insight to offer despite having experience with the very things they're struggling with (business issues, Frankie-management, and possibly unfaithful partner)-- calling her just a dupe and evading her in general.

I think there's some implication that she might have been a tough and unaffectionate parent, but it's hard to see Robert as being any better, so for them to ally with him is unexplained. And, too, seeing how she was with her grandkids, she doesn't come across as a total cold fish, just not the kind of softie that grossly overindulges or that kids identify with as one of them, when they are very young. But they seemed to like and trust her well enough, so I don't think we've seen any indication that Grace is a complete failure with kids, and earned their total contempt.

I agree. I thought Grace was great with the little boy when she was calming his fears about his mother and her bed rest due to pregnancy. No, she's not a "clown spray" grandma but she is a person the kids can depend on. My grandfather was a roll on the floor guy. My grandmother had her rules but they were reasonable and as long as you lived within them life was secure and predictable. I loved them both for different reasons. There is more than one way to be good with kids.

[Madding crowd]

I enjoyed watching this season and am glad it moved beyond Grace and Frankie feeling sad and betrayed. I like the women much more than I like Sol and Robert. And I really like Martin Sheen but think he is miscast in this role. Just don't feel him for some reason. I also like the fact that the show is proving women even into their 70's are still alive, still want relationships, adventures, and to be taken seriously. There is too much in media about older women either sitting in a rest home barely alive, or being the 'kooky' grandma who wears tutus and dances like an idiot. Frankie is a bit like that, but these are real women in every way.

I don't like Grace's daughters that much especially the businesswoman one. Her mother handed her the business she worked hard for, and she treats her like some uneducated and unpaid intern. I hope Frankie and Grace can do something interesting together (maybe not vibrators and lube though). Frankie's craziness can get a little out of hand, and Grace's drinking too. To be honest, once I hit 50, I could no longer drink more than a couple of drinks and I find it hard to believe Grace could drink so much and recover so quickly. If there is another season I hope they tone down all the characters just a smidgen to keep it realistic.

[zxy556575]

One small quibble is that I would have preferred that Frankie be portrayed as a better artist. I thought those horrible tacky paintings diminished her.

[maraleia]

I feel like both Martin and Sam seem hesitant in displaying affection for each other in a realistic way and it shows.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I thought this was a great season and I loved the finale.  I think it helped that when there was a story line with any of the kids, it was an interaction between them and one or more of the main four, Grace, Frankie, Sol and/or Robert.  Brianna annoyed me last season but this season her interactions with Frankie and the yam lube were good.  I wouldn't mind learning more about Bud outside of his family life, though.  The other two aren't really that interesting to me.

Sol's philosophy in life seems to be "I'm going to lie to you until I don't."  And then the most important thing for the victim of lie to remember is that he lied in order to keep them happy or for their own good.  He doesn't seem to understand that he is taking away someone's agency when he omits information or outright makes stuff up.  And that they have every right to be hurt, even if his intentions were good.  Or maybe he does understand it but thinks that he knows better, somehow.  Hence, the removal of their own agency.  

[Chaos Theory]

54 minutes ago, maraleia said:

I feel like both Martin and Sam seem hesitant in displaying affection for each other in a realistic way and it shows.

I felt that way the first season but this season it has gotten infinely better.  The scenes in the dingey motel room were incredly well done and I really felt the emotion.   

[Maysie]

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One small quibble is that I would have preferred that Frankie be portrayed as a better artist. I thought those horrible tacky paintings diminished her.

Good lord, yes. I feel like the writers aren't quite sure what to do with her sometimes. I sense that they like to use her wacky-hippy-earth mama-crazy self for hijinx and laffs - the whole "I want NINE MILLION DOLLARS!!!" shtick, and it felt like those awful paintings were an extension of that. Yeah, Frankie's a bit of a flake and I know a person or two like her (Including an artist), but I feel like in those moments where they try too hard to go for the laughs that they exaggerate her characteristics too much. As a result, it kind of loses the impact it should have when we learn in this episode that Sol never really took her seriously/had faith in her ability as an artist. Because really, when we see things like Frankie doing her act in the business meeting with "blood" everywhere, when we see her awful paintings, when we see her do her hippie trance stuff, I don't take her seriously. I'm not saying she has to dump the colorful personality, but it would help if they dialed it down a notch and not go for the obvious laugh with her.

It was kind of the same with Brianna in this episode. Was it supposed to be funny that she was all about that jewelry? Because all I got was selfish, entitled brat. It's puzzling to me that somehow Grace has earned her daughters' disdain yet Robert gets the pass, at least on the face of it. Why? What did Grace do to them that was so wrong that Robert didn't do? I sense that they both probably put a lot of pressure on their daughters to perform well (whether it be academically, socially, etc). Maybe we'll see what that's about if there's a next season, but after watching this episode, I felt way worse for Grace than I did Frankie. Grace is an alcoholic, basically pushed out of her business by her daughter, gave up the one person she really loved/connected with for her family and was cheated on/lied to by her vacant, absent husband for decades. In the end, she really doesn't have much to show for her choices beyond a comfortable life. Frankie, on the other hand, at least has some pretty good kids that have her back. Her life was a lie in the end too, but her kids at least acknowledge her value in their lives.

I hope the show comes back and we get to see where Frankie and Grace go, with less of the husbands in the mix. I don't care about Robert and Sol and what happens to their relationship. The children are mildly more interesting, but I hope the focus remains on the women. Knowing where they're set up now, it could be interesting to see how they navigate coping with the fact that their marriages - most of their lives, in fact - were definitely not what they thought they were and now they have to reclaim their lives for their own.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Maysie

[RCharter]

On 5/9/2016 at 11:55 AM, maraleia said:

I feel like both Martin and Sam seem hesitant in displaying affection for each other in a realistic way and it shows.

I feel the same way.....I always figured it was because I was a rabid Law and Order fan, so its hard for me to imagine Sam Waterson as anyone other than the hard charging, womanizing Jack McCoy.  Sol is a complete 180.  

[JBC344]

The cast is shooting season 3 as I type this, so we definitely have another season ahead of us.

[zxy556575]

I enjoyed drunk Grace admitting she hadn't eaten cake in years. Gaining weight isn't the done thing for the country club set.

She has been so WASPY and controlling and shut down her entire adult life. Now that that brittle veneer has been cracked, I hope next season brings her some freedom and joy.

[J.D.]

I feel the opposite as some of you.  I would like to see more storyline between Robert and Sol and less bickering between Grace and Frankie.  They fight like an old married couple.  It was fine in Season One because they're so opposite of each another and they were trying to get their 'footing' and get along, but it's getting a little tiresome and old at this point in the series.  I was hoping the writers would start to move away from all that.  I don't mind if Robert and Sol have their bickering differences because they're a couple.  It's to be expected.  Grace and Frankie??? ... not so much.  In real life, short of being in a romantic relationship, who would stick around with someone they can't even have a conversation with unless they're both arguing?  

I love the dynamic between Nwabudike and Coyote.  I wish we'd see more of them.   

I think I missed something somewhere along the way.  I don't understand the tension between Mallory and Coyote.  

[Julia]

Coyote and Mallory hooked up one summer at the beach house, but she moved on (there was some suggestion that an abortion was involved). He didn't.  

She got married since and had two kids. His stint in rehab was triggered when he showed up at the house she shared with her husband and two kids and stood on the lawn howling at her not to marry her husband. I think there may be a restraining order. 

[J.D.]

Oh wow!  I totally missed all that.  Thanks Julia.

[jrlr]

What Maysie said!  Frankie's hippie eccentricities are funny (if a little cliched), but they stop being funny when she pulls shit like she did in Brianna's office.  Then she turns into an unbearable self-righteous, spoiled ass who seems like she has never had to function in the real world at all and has absolutely no sense of the impact her idiotic behavior might have on anyone else - although she pretty much redeemed herself with her support of Babe's decision to end her life.   Brianna has gone from being a really amusing, wry commentator to being in the middle of the mix, and that has taken away a lot of her comedic punch.  Yes, her reaction to Frankie's demands is 100% understandable, but her tone, which used to be cynically funny, has turned sour and unfunny, and her behavior with the bulk gifts box (which was a really funny bit and VERY telling about Robert) was just obnoxious.   The growth in Grace's character has been a lot more interesting than anyone else's because even though she has been portrayed as the least likely or able to be self-aware in this bunch, she has actually started to become the most self-aware of all of them.  

To me, this season was extremely uneven - loved some of it, was ready to stop watching at some of it (the boring Sol-Robert stuff).  I do love the show and hope that the writers were just finding their footing with a second season that maybe they didn't expect to get.  The bigger themes (like  the fact that Frankie and Grace have to deal with what their marriages really were, the reality of being invisible after a certain age, etc.) are set up really well, though, so I'm hoping season 3 gets a little more into how they deal with those issues and relies a little less on the trying-way-too-hard "wacky antics."      

[Empress1]

I knew Grace's gift was a vibrator as soon as I saw the box. Mallory came off like a prude to me, all smug "How am I supposed to tell my kids what their grandmother does?" I loved Grace's response. (I know this was in a previous episode, but I didn't see any discipline for her kid who rolled her eyes and called Sol "this fuckin' guy." Brattiness isn't cute.)

On May 9, 2016 at 0:06 PM, lordonia said:

One small quibble is that I would have preferred that Frankie be portrayed as a better artist. I thought those horrible tacky paintings diminished her.

Me too. And there's clearly talent there, she just paints off-putting stuff. Didn't she teach art to prisoners or felons last season?

I think Brianna is over-the-top bitchy. I find her mean (although I was on her side re: the bloody business meeting). Next season I hope she either dials it back or we see less of her. I'm not particularly interested in Mallory and her family either. I AM interested in Bud though, because he's the least fleshed out of the four kids.

On May 9, 2016 at 8:51 PM, AuntieMame said:

I agree. I thought Grace was great with the little boy when she was calming his fears about his mother and her bed rest due to pregnancy. No, she's not a "clown spray" grandma but she is a person the kids can depend on. My grandfather was a roll on the floor guy. My grandmother had her rules but they were reasonable and as long as you lived within them life was secure and predictable. I loved them both for different reasons. There is more than one way to be good with kids.

I'm good with kids - I like them and they like me. Just had a chat with a kid in the grocery store this morning about spinach. (He is opposed.) I worked with kids in one way or another for many years. But you will never hear a word of baby talk come out of my mouth. I hate it. (My parents didn't use it either, which is probably why it sounds so wrong to me - I didn't grow up hearing it.) I speak in ways kids can understand, but no baby talk ever. Grace strikes me as the same way - she spoke to her grandson in a clear- age-appropriate way about what was going on, and it did make him feel better. And with soon-to-be four grandkids, there's likely going to be at least one who gravitates more toward Grace's pragmatism - not everyone takes to the "fun" parent or grandparent.

I don't know if sex toys for seniors exist, but they should. So I hope that's a real plot line next season.

[jrlr]

Apparently, Frankie and Grace are no the only ones dealing with the issue, but I think it could still be a great plot line and I hope they keep developing it:  

http://betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/search/label/sex%20toys

[zxy556575]

I'd like to see next season explore more of the family dynamics, including all the kids. How have their very different upbringings affected them and their relationships with their parents, individually and in the new pairings? Bud has the weight of being the golden child even though he's very "which of these is not like the others." An emotional crises upcoming for him, perhaps?

I don't know why Sol and Robert are so in love; they're very different. Wouldn't be surprised if their marriage falters. Maybe if Sol was shown to at least be a competent attorney I'd have more respect for him.

I hope Frankie and Grace will continue to be The Odd couple roommates, because I find their exasperation and clashes with each other to be both realistic and funny, underpinned by their ultimately loving support. We've seen Grace start to unclench and acknowledge some of her deficiencies over two seasons, but I'm not sure Frankie has grown or changed much at all. She's got lots of room to expand without Sol pacifying himself by enabling her wackiness.

Edited May 15, 2016 by lordonia

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

I'd like to see next season explore more of the family dynamics, including all the kids. How have their very different upbringings affected them and their relationships with their parents, individually and in the new pairings? Bud has the weight of being the golden child even though he's very "which of these is not like the others." An emotional crises upcoming for him, perhaps?

I don't know why Sol and Robert are so in love; they're very different. Wouldn't be surprised if their marriage falters. Maybe if Sol was shown to at least be a competent attorney I'd have more respect for him.

I hope Frankie and Grace will continue to be The Odd couple roommates, because I find their exasperation and clashes with each other to be both realistic and funny, underpinned by their ultimately loving support. We've seen Grace start to unclench and acknowledge some of her deficiencies over two seasons, but I'm not sure Frankie has grown or changed much at all. She got lots of room to expand without Sol pacifying himself by enabling her wackiness.

I agree, I'm interested in Bud's story.

I'm guessing Robert and Sol are an opposites attract couple, but perhaps as there is no more taboo to their relationship and no more excitement as its not behind closed doors they realize that maybe they aren't all that in love.

I love Frankie and Grace, together and apart.  And I tend to forgive any nonsensical thing that Frankie does because I really do like her as a character and she generally shows herself to be a true person in the end.  I was a little sore with her not forgiving Grace for her outburst, because she knows Grace has a problem the same way Coyote had a problem.  Not forgiving her seemed a little un-Frankie to me.  Especially when she found out how heart broken Gracie had been about Phil and how much Grace was trying to make amends.

[Julia]

10 minutes ago, RCharter said:

I'm guessing Robert and Sol are an opposites attract couple, but perhaps as there is no more taboo to their relationship and no more excitement as its not behind closed doors they realize that maybe they aren't all that in love.

I don't know if it's that they don't love each other. Somebody who misses the Baltimore catechism learning shabbat prayers is pretty serious. I think a bigger problem is that they're in their seventies and neither one of them has ever done the heavy lifting in a relationship before. I think on some level each expects the other to take on the wife role,* although Robert's more likely to make demands and Sol probably will just act out. 

 

*I don't know if I need to say that I mean in the functioning of the relationship, not sexually, but I will just in case. 

[jumper sage]

Just finished!  I had a hard start as I didn't care for the hospital scenes.....Loved the series and was all WTF when instead of going right into another episode I was "encouraged" to try another show.

Love this show!  I kind of liked the whole think of Frankie and Brianna in negotiations.  My grandmother was well educated (her mother literally died so that she could crawl out a window to go to high school).  She was a union organizer and a pretty big wig.  Her office was in Manhattan but she lived in Michigan.  Anyways she would pull the shit Frankie pulled all the time.  Would have to be calmed down and use her words and research.  I toasted grandma during those scenes.  That is old school USA right there.  She died about 8 - 10 years ago and was completely terrified of computers rising up.

Robert and the presents - Is that bad?  Is it because there wasn't much thought in the gifts?  I buy things I know someone might like all the time and will wait for a gift giving occasion.  My nephew is a huge reader and really likes to keep his books.  I found a first edition book on fairy tales with original art plates (tissue paper and everything) for sale for $5 at a garage sale.  Perfect condition!  I bought it 4 years ago and now his wife is expecting so I will give it to him for the baby.  When Grace found that box I skqueed.  Maybe because Robert was playing her for so long and it was another method in which to play her?

Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin are a great team.  Sam Waterson and Martin Sheen are fine actors and am glad to see their characters are being better flushed out this season.  The kids?????  I like Bud the best.

The relationships between the 4 main characters.  They were brought up with deeply conforming roles and have lived those roles.  Even Frankie and Sol lived those roles.  As much as each are different, they are very much the same.

Kid and the bad sentence - They did the right thing.  Find out the root and then explain to child why it was bad the ADULT said it.  You can't wash out kid's mouths anymore, too much poison in the soap.  It doesn't teach the kid anything.

Edited May 14, 2016 by jumper sage

[Julia]

I think it wasn't so much the bulk buying, although that's way less personal than banking a present with some thought to it. I think it's that he randomly prewrote the cards, so he literally didn't have to think about her at all while he was being'generous.'

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, jrlr said:

Apparently, Frankie and Grace are no the only ones dealing with the issue, but I think it could still be a great plot line and I hope they keep developing it:  

http://betterthanieverexpected.blogspot.com/search/label/sex%20toys

Thanks for the link. I'm younger than Frankie and Grace, but am already dealing with the issues.

[RCharter]

12 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Robert and the presents - Is that bad?  Is it because there wasn't much thought in the gifts?  I buy things I know someone might like all the time and will wait for a gift giving occasion.  My nephew is a huge reader and really likes to keep his books.  I found a first edition book on fairy tales with original art plates (tissue paper and everything) for sale for $5 at a garage sale.  Perfect condition!  I bought it 4 years ago and now his wife is expecting so I will give it to him for the baby.  When Grace found that box I skqueed.  Maybe because Robert was playing her for so long and it was another method in which to play her?

 

I just did this with my nephew and it was way more impersonal than that.  For some reason I purchased two electronic piggy banks last year around Christmas.  I have absolutely no idea why I purchased two.  My nephew's birthday was coming up and I was like "egads!  thats something a kid might like AND I get to get rid of this thing I have no use for!"  And thus an impersonal gift was born.  I heard he likes it, but that could just be what he has been programmed to say....either way.....two birds....one stone!

But agree with Julia -- I think it was just that it was impersonal....he didn't know if she would like it, he didn't think of her at all.  Although, the jerk in me immediately thought it was like the grown up version of the toy box that they have for kids at the dentists office.....and awesome grown up version.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I really can't with Frankie demanding to be taken seriously when she acts like such a child. The nine million dollars, the blood lotion, even this ep with demanding Kenny Loggins' contact info and assuming he'd want to play at her opening. Grow up. And she had no place getting mad at Bud and Coyote for the whole driving thing. They didn't go "Alright, Mom. You're over 70 now, hand over the keys." She couldn't remember answers to basic questions after driving for 50 years and they were worried about her and others' safety. Plus Coyote has always viewed her as still being maternal/authoritative, and Bud takes her seriously enough to represent her with the whole lube thing, and I doubt he'd tolerate her antics from any other client. 

[Maysie]

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I feel the opposite as some of you.  I would like to see more storyline between Robert and Sol and less bickering between Grace and Frankie.  They fight like an old married couple.  It was fine in Season One because they're so opposite of each another and they were trying to get their 'footing' and get along, but it's getting a little tiresome and old at this point in the series.  I was hoping the writers would start to move away from all that.  I don't mind if Robert and Sol have their bickering differences because they're a couple.  It's to be expected.  Grace and Frankie??? ... not so much.  In real life, short of being in a romantic relationship, who would stick around with someone they can't even have a conversation with unless they're both arguing?  

Maybe I'm glossing over it, but it seemed like there was less bickering between Grace and Frankie this season than the first. Of course, there was the Big Scene in the Bender, and the subsequent fall out from it, however, I feel like the women have reached a point where they not only co-exist together, but they are fairly supportive of each other. Grace gave Frankie advice on how to work the business meeting, Frankie encouraged Grace about Phil, there was the Vitamix thing, etc.

In fact, I feel like the relationship that has made the most progress is Grace and Frankie's relationship. Two wildly different women who didn't have much use for each other are, at this point, living together out of choice (because either one could pack it in now) and are now not only friends, but have become significant to each others' lives (and I'd argue that Frankie is probably the most important person in Grace's life right now, given the way Grace's children seem to treat her; I'd figure that Grace is in the top five for Frankie since Frankie's kids love her without reservation and aren't afraid to show it/support her).

I contrast progress in the women's relationship against the greatest change in a relationship, which is Sol and Robert, who got to transition from sneaking around to becoming "legitimate" and legally married. But I don't see change as equaling progress, and right now, it feels like the guys are still in their honeymoon phase, kind of playing house. It made sense to have some drama with Sol and Robert, given Robert's heart attack and Sol's indiscretion. And on some level, I admit to being curious about how their relationship makes the transition to out-in-the-open, legal marriage they now have. As has been mentioned in the various threads, it could be interesting to see how they adapt to that relationship. But. It's Sol, the man-child (thanks to whoever used that descriptor because it's so apt for him) and I am afraid that any Sol/Robert interaction is going to drive me nuts because it's Sol.

To me, the title of the series implies that it's all about the two women. I'm good with that because 1) the acting for both characters is excellent, 2) I may not always like the characters but I am interested in seeing what they do next and am interested in seeing them succeed and grow, and 3) I think the series has done a pretty good job of showing the evolution in their relationship. As well, I think their pasts are interesting - particularly Grace's - and I look forward to seeing how the previous 40 years are coming home to roost for them in regards to their sense of self and their relationships with others.

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I think it wasn't so much the bulk buying, although that's way less personal than banking a present with some thought to it. I think it's that he randomly prewrote the cards, so he literally didn't have to think about her at all while he was being 'generous.'

I also wondered if he even picked out the stuff. I don't know why, but I assumed he had a secretary do the shopping for him, but I could be wrong on that. If it had been me, I'd have been pissed, but I would have kept the stuff and sold it (because that had to be a chunk of change in that box). It underscores that Robert never really thought much of Grace at all - if he ever thought of her. Even when he knew she needed a little pick me up he couldn't be bothered with it; all he had to do was reach into his magic grab bag and give her a pretty, shiny object and all would be right. Jesus; what a condescending prick he is. I bet she would have traded anything in that box for a night at the beach house, including a walk on the beach with her husband, when she was feeling down.

So in regards to Grace, Robert isn't real good at the giving that counts - which is giving of yourself. It could be interesting to see how he deals with his man-child husband who demands of him at work and at home now.

[theatremouse]

4 hours ago, Maysie said:

I also wondered if he even picked out the stuff. I don't know why, but I assumed he had a secretary do the shopping for him, but I could be wrong on that.

I might be remembering wrong, but I thought he had said he picked them out at a store he knew she liked. Now, that might just mean he went in person and asked a salesperson to help him get a bunch of stuff for a bunch of occasions, so to what extent he really "picked" may be in question, but something he said gave me the impression he hadn't sent an assistant. In an awkward way, I believe he really did genuinely think what he'd done was thoughtful. There are some assholes who would stockpile gifts and knowingly treat it as a get out of jail free card, in a manipulative way. I think Sheen played it as though Robert simply thought it was pragmatic to be prepared, but didn't see it as the dismissive gesture it was. That would make even more sense if he had personally picked them all out in advance for when he might need a gift. It's still a tone-deaf thing to do, but it would jive with the notion he thought of it as being efficiently thoughtful, rather than totally thoughtless.

[AuntieMame]

Good point Julia about neither Robert or Sol being prepared to do the heavy emotional management in a marriage, despite Sol's seeming cosseting of Frankie. I'm starting to really hate these guys a bit because the show is doing a good job presenting just how global their lies and betrayal to Grace and Frankie really are. It's kind of brilliant. 

Mr. AuntieMame asked me why neither woman ever suspected that her husband was gay and was a little flummoxed. I think he was referring to a perception of their sex life as flawed. But clearly both Robert and Sol are bisexual even if they prefer to identity as completely homosexual and many marriages have things other than sex at their center. Look at Sol and Frankie's affection and intimacy so clear that Robert is jealous of it. And even though the cheating sex between them was goodbye sex, it was good enough that they both lost their better judgement and fell into bed anyway. I say think the show does a great job here showing how things aren't so obvious.

I would love to see Robert and Sol struggle not just with the emotional management of a relationship but with the transition from the excitement of an affair to the partnership of a marriage. You know these guys are both selfish enough to seek support, succor and advice from their former wives. If Grace and Frankie were living new lives and didn't have a lot of time for their exes bs, that would be sweet as Robert and Sol seem to see their thwarted love as the center of the story. Yep....really don't like these guys.

[EdnasEdibles]

Along with the gifts - there was a scene where Grace bought Frankie a windchime and said something about the fact that she had bought the chime because she was thinking of Frankie and they alluded to the presents she received throughout her marriage. She even said something along the line that it showed Robert was thinking of her and thought she'd enjoy them and it was the thought she appreciated - him knowing she was upset and that she'd appreciate a little surprise. So in this we find out that there was no thought to the gifts. They were bulk purchased and the cards were filled out in advance. They were dog treats rather than symbols of thoughtful care from someone who loves you. There's even a (terrible, in my opinion) book called The Five Love Languages which looks at the five main ways that people tend to express love.  Gift giving is one of the ways. This is the way it's described, "A gift is something you can hold in your hand and say, "Look, he was thinking of me," or, "She remembered me." You must be thinking of someone to give him or her a gift. The gift itself is a symbol of that thought. It doesn't matter whether it costs money. What is important is that you thought of him or her. And it is not the thought implanted only in the mind that counts but the thought expressed in actually securing the gift and giving it as the expression of love."

It's clear to me that this is why Grace was upset. There was no thought. There was no emotion that was being expressed with the gift other than "God, I guess I can give you this to keep up with the charade."

[debraran]

I agree, I have met men that admitted doing what Robert did, they were rich and bought their wives with gifts. (well they let themselves be bought) It was a way to shut them up if they weren't around or did something wrong or to get them in a good mood before hitting them with news they might not like. I understood what Grace was angry about, but I wonder how many men looked confused. ; )

I like how they will show examples of true friendship and morals and feelings, even when subtly. Grace doesn't have to be the Normal Rockwell grandma, but she can be a funny, loving grandma on her own. (just no drinking!)She is seeing that now.  I like how Frankie in a non judgemental way told Grace how she felt about Phil. I like how when Grace confronted her daughter about not telling her first about the twin pregnancy, her daughter reminded her about her views on her being a stay at home Mom and how it made her feel. She looked honestly hurt by the memory and these encounters mean more to me and keep me watching more than the Sol/Robert fighting which got over the top in my opinion.

You don't have to hit someone over the head to make a point, I think the show is at it's best when the drama is lower.

[AuntieMame]

EdnasEdibles...I'm curious, why do you not like the Five Love Languages? I ask not to defend the book, but because it's been recommended to me a number of times and I had a visceral response after doing a bit of googling that it was pop psychology of the moment, e.g. that there was some surface truth to its hook but that we'd all be stuck with it as a cultural reference like Mars and Venus for years to come. 

Gifts are nice certainly, but their potential for abuse and the loaded politics surrounding them always made me nervous. Poor Grace really got bitten with the sharp teeth of this one. I'm not certain which woman I feel worse for, Grace whose marriage ended up being emptier than she ever dreamed possible or Frankie whose seemingly intimate and warm marriage his betrayal of such magnitude. I thought the gifts were a brilliant illustration as was, come to think of it, was the thing with Frankie's painting. Perfect symbols for what was wrong and how it manifested at the heart of both marriages. Hats off to the writers.

[Clanstarling]

@AuntieMame - I agree with you. It's hard to know who had it worse. At first I was going to say that clearly Frankie is the one to feel sorriest for, having had a warm and loving marriage (not entirely an illusion), and then to experience that depth of betrayal. But then I realized that those gifts were the things that held Grace together, the table scraps that helped her convince herself that Robert loved her.

Damn, I love this show. It breaks my heart while it makes me laugh.

[hnygrl]

The book the 5 love languages is not pop psyche. It's been out since 1995. That's long enough to be well established. It's not for everyone true, but there is definitely some truth in the book. Not every woman is going to be happy with presents if she wants your time. Take Grace & Frankie for instance. Frankie would hate it if Sol bought her a bauble every time she had an emotion. She'd be crushed that he thought so little of her, where Grace found it endearing and touching in a "he knows me so well" kinda way. Make sense?

I used to feel sorrier for Frankie because she seemingly had it all. But the more I get to know Grace, the sadder her life looks to me. She had the husband, kids, great career, seemingly everything too. Everyone gives her pain a pass because she was "obviously" in a loveless marriage to begin with. We're now kinda glimpsing where that may not be true/

[AuntieMame]

I like Grace more than the viewers have been set up to like Grace. There is a bit of a dismissive tone with the character sometimes because she is portrayed as a cold control freak. I said in another post that I think her emotions overwhelm her, or she fears that they will, which is why she is so buttoned up and a functional alcoholic. I think she stayed in a marriage that was in some ways safe and controllable in the day to day, but that it devastated hder to learn that the marriage really was empty. Because Grace isn't empty, surface appearances to the contrary. I think Robert is the empty one of all of them and that Sol might find he didn't get what he thought he was getting. 

OK, I will check out the love languages. It might have been the source of the recommendation that soured me.

[txhorns79]

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You know these guys are both selfish enough to seek support, succor and advice from their former wives. If Grace and Frankie were living new lives and didn't have a lot of time for their exes bs, that would be sweet as Robert and Sol seem to see their thwarted love as the center of the story. Yep....really don't like these guys.

I'm really having issues with Robert and Sol too.  I can at least say that Sol's lie about the painting seemed like a real effort to be kind to Frankie, even if it ended up being a huge mistake on his part.  With Robert, his collection of gifts was just so damn cold.  It was like a declaration from him that he never cared about Grace, and I would see that as a huge warning sign to Sol.  Even if you want to buy that Robert's actions were all because he was repressing himself, it's still pretty awful, and he really did not seem to get that. 

I very much enjoy the series, but what amuses me most is that the two people I would buy as a couple are Grace and Frankie.  I feel like Robert and Sol don't have much chemistry, and a lot of time it feels like they don't really like each other. 

[Maysie]

I feel bad for both women for discovering that their relationships, however, they saw them, were definitely not what they thought they were. The cheating/longstanding affair was really the tip of the iceberg. Once you dig underneath that, there's a whole bunch of stuff at play - the continual lies, the basic lack of respect, living a life that was basically a fraud, etc. which is what everyone seems to be uncovering and dealing with now. I think/hope the show is taking us to a place where the women come out the other side and realize they're better for getting out of the relationships. But I have to say, as it stands right now, I feel more sympathy for Grace than for Frankie. Frankie has her art, which she's always had, as well as two sons who obviously love her to pieces; Jacob the yam man is the icing on the cake. Grace doesn't have her business anymore and it appears that her daughters, at this point, don't really respect her all that much or feel much attachment to her. Combine that with the realization of what she missed with Phil, it seems that Grace is empty-handed when it comes to the really important stuff in life (which would be especially daunting when you're in the final years/decades of your life)

I don't really like Grace's daughters all that much. They appear to be very self-absorbed, somewhat shallow women. However, I am allowing for the possibility that the show may allow for some growth there. And that's entirely possible because I never would have thought there was so much interesting, good stuff about Grace, but the show cracked the surface and there's a person of much greater depth, caring, etc. than what I (and from the looks of it, Frankie) initially thought.

[debraran]

I'm still wondering if Sam Elliot will be back but I doubt as a regular character in the show. It's easy to say that Phil and Grace would have been a long standing couple if they divorced and married but maybe not. It's very easy when "in lust" to think that but in my 50 plus years I have seen it fall apart many times. They didn't really know each other, they knew they were attracted to each other, but never really had a chance to go out and do things real couples would do and see each other in less than perfect situations.

Sam Elliot is sexy and it's easy to see the chemistry but I hope Grace finds out more about herself in other ways next season. If she finds real love, great, but I hope they explore finding ways to be fulfilled and loving yourself too in other areas. Trying to think of another sexy, interesting man to add some interest....

I read reviews that complained the daughters had a lot of time and Grace and Frankie didn't season 1, but it seems less so this season. I think the daughter that has children is fine but they always give working women a hard, irritating persona, maybe that will soften in the future.

Edited May 23, 2016 by debraran

[Empress1]

On May 22, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Maysie said:

I feel bad for both women for discovering that their relationships, however, they saw them, were definitely not what they thought they were. The cheating/longstanding affair was really the tip of the iceberg. Once you dig underneath that, there's a whole bunch of stuff at play - the continual lies, the basic lack of respect, living a life that was basically a fraud, etc. which is what everyone seems to be uncovering and dealing with now. I think/hope the show is taking us to a place where the women come out the other side and realize they're better for getting out of the relationships. But I have to say, as it stands right now, I feel more sympathy for Grace than for Frankie. Frankie has her art, which she's always had, as well as two sons who obviously love her to pieces; Jacob the yam man is the icing on the cake. Grace doesn't have her business anymore and it appears that her daughters, at this point, don't really respect her all that much or feel much attachment to her. Combine that with the realization of what she missed with Phil, it seems that Grace is empty-handed when it comes to the really important stuff in life (which would be especially daunting when you're in the final years/decades of your life)

I feel more sorry for Grace too. She doesn't really have emotional connections besides Frankie at this point, and that's very sad. I think I would be devastated to come to that realization at any age, but it would be particularly scary to realize as you get older. 

[Bastet]

Grace being excited that her vibrator is dishwasher-safe made me laugh even harder than Count Drinkula.  I also loved Grace distracting Frankie by saying there was a drone outside.

Poor Grace; she’s certainly got her flaws, but when the housekeeper is the person in the family with the highest regard for her, you have to wonder how much of her behavior is a result of theirs and how much of theirs is a result of hers – it’s complicated, and I like that.  Realizing Robert gave her gifts – the one sign of affection he ever did give her – to manage her … ouch.

I could not love more Grace and Frankie going off on everyone, taking a moment for Frankie to forgive her, and getting right back to it – then announcing they are partnering up to make vibrators for women with arthritis.  “We’re making things for people like us, because we are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you.”  I fucking love this show.  Mic drop, indeed.

[Callietwo]

Watched this last episode in the middle of the night with my headphones (which, side note, the Bose noise canceling headphones are worth every fricken' penny!!)  But I didn't realize how loud I was laughing during the take down by Grace & Frankie and hubby was annoyed, heh.  

Grace is definitely my favorite character on this show, she's wound so tight it was just a matter of time before she blew her top and boy was that a great scene. 

Unlike others, I thought Brianna was totally in character when she was going on about the jewelry and it really kind of cracke de up.  But she's my second favorite character after Grace so maybe that's why.  

And how much money was in that box?  They're lucky that the housekeeper was so trustworthy!  It'd netted a pretty penny and she could have easily told Robert it was given to Grace, and with Grace unaware it existed how would he know?  But it's TV, so of course, the box full of jewels was safe.  

On May 19, 2016 at 9:06 PM, AuntieMame said:

OK, I will check out the love languages. It might have been the source of the recommendation that soured me.

It is one of hubby & my favorites.  In the divorce support group where we met (online), it was highly recommended and we definitely found it helpful for us navigating the 'second time around'.  

[Chaos Theory]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more Robert and Sol now that the honeymoon stage/cheating stage is over and they are in a grown up relationship and have to start dealing with each other in a more permanent fashion.  

[Wings]

I just binged watched both seasons, yesterday.  I loved it!  I do have some issues though. 

Robert and Sol are not a believable couple and it is in part, because I hate Martin Sheen.  He plays the stiff, cold distant man well but I would prefer a different actor.  They could have created a more compelling character, that could work within the same plot.  He gives us nothing to believe why Sol loves him. 

I know a lot of gay men and I have yet to see a relationship so strained and odd.  And yes, two were married before they had the courage to come out.  And when they did a huge burden was lifted and I have yet to see this play out with Robert.  There is no lightness in this character.    

Sol is an odd duck and I wonder how much of that was written and how much they leaned on Sam to create the character.  

Why is Mallory angry and huffy most of the time?  Did I miss a reason for this?