S04.E09: The Day After

[BradandJanet]

On a totally unrelated point, I appreciated the styling of Alice, Mrs. Pastor Tim, at the party. Her dress was a nod to Princess Diana's famous maternity dresses. I was pregnant at the same time and had similar billowy dresses. Mrs. Tim managed to carry the look to the extreme, though, especially with the retro 40's hairstyle. Oh, the memories this show brings back. 

[stagmania]

48 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

I was sure that I saw Elizabeth put something into Phillips hand when she returned from her "mission" with Don. I specifically read two different recaps to see a mention of it, but there was nothing, so it was probably him just taking her hand. My first thought was thumb drive, though, of course, they hadn't been invented yet. Cameras in the apartment wouldn't help her, since there was nothing for them to record except Elizabeth setting Don up, so it wouldn't have been a tiny roll of film. I guess I imagined it.

As far as I could tell, Phillip was simply taking Elizabeth's hand to offer her comfort.

[scowl]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm watching The Day After now.

It actually holds up, but of course, in reality, it would be much, much worse, because it certainly doesn't seem to deal with Nuclear Winter at all.  For what it is, it's not bad, but there are good and bad things to limiting this to one area (unless they expand it later.)

The thing that bothered me was that near the end there are people smiling while they know they're dying. See, the Soviets can throw their nukes at us but we Americans can smile no matter what! Look at pictures of the Japanese dying after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They weren't smiling. 

Conservatives objected to it because it depicted NATO launching the first missiles. But we all knew that if Soviet tanks started rolling into Europe, we wouldn't hesitate to nuke them and everything behind them. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

It was much more reassuring than Philip's dismissal of Paige's fears. Hiding things like that from kids never works.

I didn't think he was dismissing them. He admitted that his whole life was about preventing this and that he did think of it, but what else can you really say in response to "Will the world really end this way?" than he hopes so? He also even admitted that he's not sure he's doing anything to prevent it. That's pretty honest!

2 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

One thing that really got under my nerves in this episode was when Pastor Tim had the nerve to question Philip re: his own daughter, suggesting that they all get together "to see where they are". Now, admittedly, this is an unusual situation. But for a guy without kids to suggest the parents "come in" to talk about their own family relationship... man, serious overstepping of boundaries in my book.

And now it's even more ironic since he presumably thinks that Paige looking "burdened" is about carrying her parents' secret, like maybe she's becoming more upset at them. He takes himself as a threat out of the equation and it doesn't occur to him to think maybe she's overwhelmed with all the time she's spending at church with homework to do. So even though he's not buying Paige's emotional state (love how Philip turns on the jolly to full blast suburban white guy when he talks to PT) he still assumes church is her escape from her problems. He doesn't even think from a practical standpoint that maybe she wants to be at church but is spreading herself too thin. This is, after all, a guy who sees no problem with a 14-year-old emptying her entire savings into the coffers.

I wonder if we'll find out Pastor Tim was planning something serious for this meeting, like he really thinks her parents need to defect or quit.

[crashdown]

17 hours ago, TheodoraK said:

i was totally disgusted by what elizabeth did to her one friend on earth. i agree with what was said about how she's going to miss who she was with Young Hee. she was actually sweet and fun and kind. i hope this is some kind of turning point for her because i won't be rooting for her on any level from now on. that was beyond evil.

 

1 hour ago, Stella Rose said:

 

I don't care if E. has/had misgivings. 

I don't give a pasty white rat's ass if she feels bad. 

Don't.  Nope.  That was, to me, tantamount to rape.  To make Don, an obviously honorable, decent man, think he cheated on his wife - is beyond despicable.  Of all the rotten things we have seen P & E do over the years, this just stuck out as - non-redeemable.     I will have a hard time watching  - or at least watching with any sympathy for E. after this. 

 

 

These sorts of interpretations bug me a little, because I consider them completely ahistorical.  Yes, obviously, from our 2016 perspective, what Elizabeth did was morally repugnant, but it's repugnant because we know that it made no difference at all to anything.  That's the essential tragedy of Elizabeth and Philip: they believe that what they're doing is ultimately going to save countlessly more lives than it costs.  They're not doing this for money or fame or power--they're doing it because they honestly believe they're making the world a better place, and they're giving up any hope of real personal happiness to get it done.  Elizabeth believed that what she was doing--sacrificing someone who brings her comfort for the greater good--was a deeply moral act that was going to have a real effect on the world.  We know that it wasn't, that the Soviet Union is a ticking time bomb, that all her work is ultimately meaningless.  But she doesn't know that.  Imagine, for a moment, that what Elizabeth believes to be true actually were true--imagine that the US was planning to unleash a biological weapon of immeasurable destruction on the Soviet Union and that the only way that to prevent the horrific deaths of millions was to obtain the clearance to steal the virus and get it to Soviet scientists to develop an antidote.  Wouldn't entrapping the husband of your friend of eight months be worth it?  Wouldn't the sacrifice of your own happiness be a mere trifle?  Just because Elizabeth is fundamentally mistaken about what her actions are going to mean for the world doesn't make them any less noble.  She's a deeply ethical person, but ethics is a tricky, slippery business that sometimes results in doing the wrong thing for the very best of reasons.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, jjj said:

I start to think the KGB made a mint selling off its properties at some point! 

A delicious irony would be the property taxes they had to pay over time.

 

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

In fact, I'm not at all certain but I have a strong suspicion that could well backfire as Don might be able to blackmail E just as easily (or maybe even more easily) then she could blackmail him.

Except that everything that Don knows about "Patti" is false.  She will disappear as soon as she gets what she wants, or the operation goes wrong.  The apartment is fake, the MaryKay info is fake, and so on.  I think, in an alternate universe, it would have been comical to see Don roll over, notice Patti, smile, and say something like "Babe,you are the greatest.  How about next week?  The wife? Pfft.  What I got on her....."  Just to see Elizabeth's terrified look.

I think the only way a blackmail operation would work is to have photos available of the time after she got into bed with him.  Then, a third intermediary approaches Don somewhere else and has "the discussion" with him.  Elizabeth is completely removed from the scenario and never sees Don or Young Hee again.

Another great line from the episode, from William to Philip: "That's your best disguise yet."  To me, he was a Tom Selleck ringer.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, crashdown said:

 Elizabeth believed that what she was doing--sacrificing someone who brings her comfort for the greater good--was a deeply moral act that was going to have a real effect on the world.  

One thing to add to this too, many people describe Phiilp's situation as being just as bad or worse because he doesn't believe in this stuff and is just doing it to keep his family, but Philip doesn't know his work is pointless either. He's often convinced to do things because he does want what Elizabeth wants too. He doesn't know if he's helping, but the idea that he could have helped and didn't is a fear. That's why he's motivated to do things he understands.

[Darrenbrett]

3 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[Darrenbrett]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 Elizabeth believed that what she was doing--sacrificing someone who brings her comfort for the greater good--was a deeply moral act that was going to have a real effect on the world.  

Yes. This. In an age of religious terrorism, a philosophy that believes in any means towards a desired end is no longer palatable. During the days of the Cold War, however, there was a different narrative at play. And BOTH sides really believed the good of the world was at stake, and would only come out right if THEIR side won, no matter HOW it happened.

[jjj]

47 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Another great line from the episode, from William to Philip: "That's your best disguise yet."  To me, he was a Tom Selleck ringer.

ExCUSE me!  NOT the Tom Selleck of 1983!

Edited May 13, 2016 by jjj

[benteen]

Quote

Finally...come on, Oleg, wake up! Sleeping with another female co-worker may not be such a great idea.

Yeah, Oleg is not smart about this at all.  He's an easy mark in the embassy. 

[Umbelina]

Finally found the Threads movie on YouTube.  Wow.

[snarktini]

I've never even heard of The Day After -- I would have been 10/11 when it aired. So weird. Maybe I'll ask my parents.

I don't believe Elizabeth thinks she has a good chance with Don. She thinks it's the only chance they have. When Philip offered her the out, that's how I read it. Don's a lousy target, no obvious weak spots. She was hoping for blackmail material anyway, and that didn't pan out either. But she's forging ahead because there is no alternative they know of to get that Level 4 access. The lube trick was smart, a little piece of evidence that would make him question himself -- I shouldn't be surprised she'd know to do that. Broke my heart how he scurried out of there in shame.

1 hour ago, jjj said:

ExCUSE me!  NOT the Tom Selleck of 1983!

This bears repeating. Nope.

[CarpeDiem54]

I must have been in a coma in 1983.  I've never heard of The Day After and I was 29 at the time.  The only excuse I have is we were implementing a computer system at work and I was putting in a lot of hours.  I've never heard of the other movies mentioned either - Threads, Testament - and was only vaguely aware of David Copperfield.

[scartact]

After the last few weeks of high wire tension, this episode felt just a little bit underwhelming, though I know it's still setting up the board so that hopefully the next few episodes will put those pieces into play. I realize too that part of my underwhelmed response may be because to me it seems as if we haven't seen the show often go through such great lengths to obscure the reason for an operation before, so it feels just a little inorganic. However, I liked so much of what's come before and how much Young Hee humanizes Elizabeth and gives us this completely separate facet of her. A lot of that credit goes to how immensely charming and fun Ruthie Ann Miles is, so of course it makes Elizabeth's actions and her own reluctance even worse.

I loved the sequence of Elizabeth exhaustively combing over every single detail of Young Hee and Don's house, trying to find one little thing to use against Don. For me, it really felt like as much as she's doing it to further their mission and to help get William this elusive level 4 access, it was more about how he can make the Young Hee operation as painless as possible. This makes me think back to also how I often read and differentiate Philip's and Elizabeth's emotional levels during operations. Whereas Philip is at this point where he will more often engage with the complexity of his emotional experiences and what makes him sick to his stomach, Elizabeth is more straightforward in her intentions, so they will read so much more jointly to me. Actually, I'm not quite sure if I said something sensical just now with this musing...

Also, at first I found the Paige storyline in this episode a little inscrutable, but during my post episode debrief (where I basically just read reviews from my favorite entertainment websites, including the Particles) I loved one of the critics pointing out how this episode emphasizes the thin line between hesitation and clarity(/decisiveness), and so understanding the driving lessons stuff on those terms illuminated the meaning of the episode more for me. I thought it was really interesting for the show to contrast Paige's hesitance as a new driver with Elizabeth's reluctance as she forges ahead with setting Don up. It's kind of beautiful that as Philip instructs Paige it will be better if she blinks, it relieves her tension, while when Elizabeth blinks it just brings on her own onslaught of shame.

Also, I've come to the point where I realize I just really can't stand Pastor Groovyhair. I know he's coming from a good place and on behalf of Paige, but when he brought up to Philip that once he's back from his mission trip, they can all get together to debrief on the state of their situation, I just wanted him to run straight into the ocean and never return. It just felt so intrusive to their home and family life, but I also recognize it really isn't his fault that he got roped into this and he is just trying to ensure that both Paige is truly fine and that, well, I guess America is safe, or whatever. But still, oh my gosh, please put rocks in your pocket and don't come back.

[BW Manilowe]

17 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Young Hee was a real original. Not only had Elizabeth never met anyone like her before. But I doubt that anyone has ever met anyone like her before. She had the most amazing sense of humor. Everyone would want to have a friend like Young Hee and I think E just doesn't reallize how unique YH is. Since E has almost no friends and never had any, she likely things that having a friend means something like what she experienced with YH. She has no clue just how unique and special her friendship with YH was.

I agree with someone upthread who was talking about how beautiful E is. When she took off her top and we saw her naked back, I got very excited, thinking, "Oh boy! Now we get to see some naked Keri Russell breasts. I should have known better. No beautiful breasts. But she is def one extremely beautiful lady.

Since Keri Russell was visibly pregnant in real life (with Matthew Rhys' baby, for anyone reading this who was perhaps unaware) during most, if not all, of the filming this season, she probably wasn't going to do any frontal nude scenes during the filming since Elizabeth Jennings wasn't supposed to be pregnant this season.

[RedHawk]

17 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I'm not saying it wasn't a big thing, just that it wasn't literally everyone watching and talking about it.  Even with 100MM people watching, there's still 100MM+ people that didn't watch. 

I was in my early 20s amd didn't watch "The Day After", "Threads", or "Testament". I was skeptical and anti-Reagan and thought the films were released mostly to frighten people and make them see the Soviet Union as "the enemy" so our government could justify the massive defense buildup and questionable things like "Star Wars" defense system. I was not alone in this opinion.

Elizabeth also wasn't the only one who laughed at Reagan's excessive makeup and jeered his fear-mongering speeches; plenty of us did. We were more scared of what Reagan was doing than what the Russians might do. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Growing up at the time doesn't necessarily help, though. Peoples' memories can be very biased depending on where they were and their age, plus we often just remember stuff wrong. Like as I think we talked about before, the guy who wanted to originally use Yaz was probably remembering his sister, who was specifically a fan, listening to them probably later than Philip got that album. And Holly Taylor then adlibbed lines about how "everyone at school" was talking about Yaz's "new album" because she has no idea about this stuff at all.

That said oh yeah, I had some knickers. Of course I did. I think I even had a velvet pair. I was a very fancy pirate.

You were a "dandy highway(wo)man"! 

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

Keri Russell can do whatever she wants. I just think it is lazy writing to have the E character so frequently taking her clothes off as a plot device, especially, as you note, as a plot device which nearly unfailingly works for the character of E. I think we are largely in agreement.  

Reminds me of the criticism of the original "Star Trek". Capt. Kirk got out of many a bad situation by seducing an alien female. Worked every time!

[SunnyBeBe]

Alice is so obviously pregnant now and way too pregnant to be flying.  It seems an odd time for Pastor Tim to travel abroad.  What if she went in labor while he's gone?  With this being their first child and her an older mother, well....it seems an odd choice.  I guess the need of the people in Ethiopia was more important to them.

There's a commercial for Chase Bank of a couple walking their pet pig on a leash.  They are a ringer for Pastor Tim and Alice!

[kay1864]

I don't agree that Don will know he was drugged.  He made a remark about drinking on an empty stomach, and it was implied he had a second glass while sitting on the sofa (he almost drained his first glass while still standing at the counter).  I think he'll assume he had sex with beautiful Patty that he went along with in a drunken state--not sex she forced him into.  And E knows he'll feel guilty as hell about it.  Whether E can leverage that guilt into intel remains to be seen.

The camera operator and director do an amazing job hiding Keri's pregnancy without it looking contrived like it did with Cybill Shepherd in Moonlighting.  Although I did see a quick flash of a baby bump last week when she was leaving the bathroom.  Keri's in amazing shape, although I wondered if it was a body double  for the rear nude shots in bed.

Funny that this episode did not have the Nudity warning label although it was copious for this show.  And then the episode where Martha and Clark had sex in the chair was labeled that way, apparently for Martha's bare thigh?  Go figure.

Has it been established that Don and William work at the same lab?

Loved Matthew's acting in the car with Paige.  We're so used to seeing NastyScaryPhilip that I liked seeing him being caring and understanding about Paige's fear.  Especially since he didn't have a father after age 6, and we know only that he had to deal with gangs while young.  So he probably didn't have much of a role model for the situation.

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Alice is so obviously pregnant now and way too pregnant to be flying.  It seems an odd time for Pastor Tim to travel abroad.  What if she went in labor while he's gone?  With this being their first child and her an older mother, well....it seems an odd choice.  I guess the need of the people in Ethiopia was more important to them.

My theory about Pastor Tim, given what we've seen of him, is that Philip and Elizabeth are a bit of a blow to his ego. He's set up this whole church with himself at the center being the great activist who gets arrested at protests and isn't afraid to die for his beliefs etc. He's surrounded probably mostly by church wives who compete for his attention and a youth group full of teenagers who actually think he's cool, like Paige.

Now he's discovered that Philip and Elizabeth, whether or not he agrees with their pov, are the real deal. They've got priests from El Salvador they can bring in and say they saved his lives. They're living undercover and believe in, if not all the same values as he does, some of them. They're obviously in danger 24/7.

So to me it actually makes perfect sense that he'd choose this time to take a mission trip, including one to a place where he might get into trouble where people are really suffering. His ego is driving him to compete with the Jennings, probably mostly Philip (because he seems to focus on him more than Elizabeth). So in this scene he's competing with him in 3 ways--he's finally having a kid now himself so he's a "real" dad, he's butting into the situation with Paige again as her self-declared co-parent (she seems burdened--let's figure out what you're doing wrong now...), plus he's going on a big mission trip to help people (with a send-off party to boot). He'd probably want to do it before the kid is born because maybe he's realizing he'll be more constrained after that.

This is just always the way Pastor Tim has come across to me, and his wife seems like she always supports him in his ego trips and her personality comes out more when he's out of the room (as Paige said about her being a blabbermouth when she's around women despite her being almost entirely silent when she's at her husband's side).

21 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Especially since he didn't have a father after age 6, and we know only that he had to deal with gangs while young.  So he probably didn't have much of a role model for the situation.

I just always feel the need to point out that we don't actually know anything about Philip's father. When he told Paige his father died when he was six he would have been referring to his Philip Jennings backstory which might or might not coincide with Mischa's real life on this issue. But we do certainly know he had to deal with those gangs alone and never seems to refer to his own parents in terms of his own parenting, which Elizabeth (and I think most people with parents) often do.

[RedHawk]

38 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Funny that this episode did not have the Nudity warning label although it was copious for this show.  And then the episode where Martha and Clark had sex in the chair was labeled that way, apparently for Martha's bare thigh?  Go figure.

It didn't? We saw several seconds of a full-on porno video... can't believe they wouldn't "warn" for that.

Quote

The camera operator and director do an amazing job hiding Keri's pregnancy without it looking contrived like it did with Cybill Shepherd in Moonlighting.  Although I did see a quick flash of a baby bump last week when she was leaving the bathroom.  Keri's in amazing shape, although I wondered if it was a body double  for the rear nude shots in bed.

I agree. Sometimes I remember Keri is pregnant and that's why she's in so many coats and jumps into bed and pulls up the covers, but they handle it really well. 

[hippielamb]

9 hours ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I must have been in a coma in 1983.  I've never heard of The Day After and I was 29 at the time.  The only excuse I have is we were implementing a computer system at work and I was putting in a lot of hours.  I've never heard of the other movies mentioned either - Threads, Testament - and was only vaguely aware of David Copperfield.

I was 12 at the time and was a clueless kid like Henry, had no idea nuclear war was a possibility. I remember watching The Day After at a friend's house and just thinking it was a tv movie. I don't remember anyone being that worried about it.

I missed Gabriel in this episode. His scenes with Elizabeth and Phillip are some of my favourite parts of this show.

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Alice is so obviously pregnant now and way too pregnant to be flying.  It seems an odd time for Pastor Tim to travel abroad.  What if she went in labor while he's gone?  With this being their first child and her an older mother, well....it seems an odd choice.  I guess the need of the people in Ethiopia was more important to them.

There's a commercial for Chase Bank of a couple walking their pet pig on a leash.  They are a ringer for Pastor Tim and Alice!

I thought the same thing about her being so pregnant. Weird that he would leave, but if it's a trip that's been in the planning for many months, I guess...

I love that commercial. Too busy looking at the pig to notice the couple, will watch more closely next time.

The Don storyline is starting to bug me now that I've thought about it more. Why did Elizabeth choose Don and Young Hee if she didn't already know he had a weak spot she could exploit, or hasn't discovered one in more than 7 months? There must be several others who have Level 4 access and would be much better targets. I think she took a break and just enjoyed her friendship with Young Hee for a while, rationalizing that she was getting close to her to then use Don. She got close enough to be trusted to stay over with the kids, but it yielded nothing useful.

[SunnyBeBe]

There was a warning for sexual content, because I recall wondering who would be doing it. 

[Anela]

I asked mum about that period of time, and she didn't remember much, but did say that there was one big scare at one point (she couldn't remember what it was), and asked my uncle to come back and stay with us, so that someone would be with me and my sister, if anything happened when she was at work. 

[izabella]

5 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I was in my early 20s amd didn't watch "The Day After", "Threads", or "Testament". I was skeptical and anti-Reagan and thought the films were released mostly to frighten people and make them see the Soviet Union as "the enemy" so our government could justify the massive defense buildup and questionable things like "Star Wars" defense system. I was not alone in this opinion.

Elizabeth also wasn't the only one who laughed at Reagan's excessive makeup and jeered his fear-mongering speeches; plenty of us did. We were more scared of what Reagan was doing than what the Russians might do. 

 

Yes, this is what it was like at my house, too.  And not just the Soviets, but Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan (yeah, that turned out well), violating international law by bombing Lybia, violating international law and invading Grenada, sanctions against Poland...

My family and I are immigrants from Eastern Europe, had and still have a LOT of family there, and my parents' biggest fear was that Reagan would next turn to our former homeland - either starving them via sanctions, bombing them, or arming them, and thus making our own presence in the US subject to question.  Reagan's foreign policy was the catalyst for my parents starting the long, arduous process of becoming US Citizens after 12 years of being permanent residents.  We were afraid something he would do would cause even legal immigrants like us to be imprisoned, deported or otherwise shunned.  The US did eventually bomb our country, but it was under Clinton that it happened.

Edited May 13, 2016 by izabella

[TsuKata]

When Philip took Paige out in the Camaro and had that line about "listen very carefully to what I say" as well as "you know I'll have to ground you forever if you get a scratch on it", I honestly thought he *had* listened to her and they together were going to craft this narrative where Paige is "grounded" because she scratched the camaro and thus can't do as many of the church things, helping her to gracefully exit the situation.  I thought he was going to direct her to do something where it would get hurt, even more so after they were in the car and he said he loved her more than the Camaro. 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, jjj said:

ExCUSE me!  NOT the Tom Selleck of 1983!

Ahhh, memories. I was looking for the one that stuck in my mind all these years - jeans and a blue shirt. I did happen on one (which I won't post because it just might be against the rules) of him in nothing but a thong. Oh my.

45 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

It didn't? We saw several seconds of a full-on porno video... can't believe they wouldn't "warn" for that.

There was a warning for sexuality, IIRC. And violence - though I'm not sure I remember any violence. Maybe it was supposed to be nudity and someone made a mistake. Or, they figured sexuality included nudity? 

I did appreciate that the fast forward on the VCR looked as bad as it did in those days. We've come a long way, baby.

Of all the characters this show has produced, Pastor Groovyhair and his wife bother me the most. They never feel quite right to me - and I'm not sure if that's deliberate. I've been able to get the mindset of most of the characters, whether I agreed with them or not, but they just elude me. Maybe because I'm not religious.

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

He takes himself as a threat out of the equation and it doesn't occur to him to think maybe she's overwhelmed with all the time she's spending at church with homework to do. 

I don't think Phillip isn't aware that Page is overextending herself, I think he doesn't give a shit.  It reminds me of the flashback of Elizabeth and a little Page at the community pool when E pushes Page in the pool to teach her how to swim.  P&E are not sympathetic people, they want results.  They have several murders under their belt to prove that.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

I don't agree that Don will know he was drugged.  He made a remark about drinking on an empty stomach, and it was implied he had a second glass while sitting on the sofa (he almost drained his first glass while still standing at the counter).  I think he'll assume he had sex with beautiful Patty that he went along with in a drunken state--not sex she forced him into.  And E knows he'll feel guilty as hell about it.  Whether E can leverage that guilt into intel remains to be seen.

The camera operator and director do an amazing job hiding Keri's pregnancy without it looking contrived like it did with Cybill Shepherd in Moonlighting.  Although I did see a quick flash of a baby bump last week when she was leaving the bathroom.  Keri's in amazing shape, although I wondered if it was a body double  for the rear nude shots in bed.

Funny that this episode did not have the Nudity warning label although it was copious for this show.  And then the episode where Martha and Clark had sex in the chair was labeled that way, apparently for Martha's bare thigh?  Go figure.

Has it been established that Don and William work at the same lab?

Loved Matthew's acting in the car with Paige.  We're so used to seeing NastyScaryPhilip that I liked seeing him being caring and understanding about Paige's fear.  Especially since he didn't have a father after age 6, and we know only that he had to deal with gangs while young.  So he probably didn't have much of a role model for the situation.

If E makes no attempt to leverage the drugging into getting William access through Don, I agree it is possible, barely, for Don to not give the episode much examination, other than feeling a ,lot of guilt. However, unless Don is an idiot, if any overt attempt is made to leverage that guilt into manipulating Don's work behavior, Don has to say, "I've had alcohol before without ever suffering a blackout" and now a blackout is being used to get me to do something illegal at work, or force me out of my job. I think I'll call the FBI."

Now, maybe Don's never had a drink in his life, or has had so many that he's had blackout episodes before, but neither of those scenarios has been put forward. If they have Don not realizing that he was drugged, after an attempt is made to use the drugging to manipulate his behavior or situation at work, then Don's a halfwit, it seems clear to me, and the writers of this show have reverted to their worst habits.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I thought the same thing about her being so pregnant. Weird that he would leave, but if it's a trip that's been in the planning for many months, I guess...

But she's also been pregnant for many months. I think we should definitely see this as a decision about Tim wanting to go to Ethiopia.

 

8 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I don't think Phillip isn't aware that Page is overextending herself, I think he doesn't give a shit.  It reminds me of the flashback of Elizabeth and a little Page at the community pool when E pushes Page in the pool to teach her how to swim.  P&E are not sympathetic people, they want results.  They have several murders under their belt to prove that.

I was talking about Pastor Tim there, that he didn't suggest that maybe Paige was stretching herself too thin if she seemed so burdened and yet was constantly volunteering at church. He would never suggest such a thing.

I totally disagree that Philip doesn't give a shit about Paige ever overextending herself. He apologized to her for her having lots of responsibilities at home when she was just doing more laundry. In the situation they're in now, though, no, they can't care overmuch about her having less time for homework because they have a big threat to deal with. Paige spent most of her life with minimal responsibilities. She created a big one for herself when she told Pastor Tim about her parents but didn't get that this was different. Nobody can do this for her, but she doesn't want the consequences of not doing it herself. The best Philip does is try to make this seem like it's normal because for him, it is. He's the one that "makes it real" on some level every time. Paige has in no way committed to this fiction the way Philip would have by now.

[scartact]

11 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I don't think Phillip isn't aware that Page is overextending herself, I think he doesn't give a shit.  It reminds me of the flashback of Elizabeth and a little Page at the community pool when E pushes Page in the pool to teach her how to swim.  P&E are not sympathetic people, they want results.  They have several murders under their belt to prove that.

I actually do believe Philip cares very much if Paige feels overwhelmed and overextended. I also definitely think he knows and recognizes that they've given her a very heavy burden to carry, which is why I think he lets her drive the Camaro. Between Philip and Elizabeth, Philip has always been more emotionally in tune with their children and more able to address their emotional needs, which is something Elizabeth recognized even back in the season one finale. When Pastor Tim says Paige seems different and more burdened, I think it's more about us not underestimating that Pastor Tim is still savvy enough to recognize something is off with her. A lot of people seem to say Paige seems to have innate spy tendencies in her, but I really personally don't see it. I do think she's doing as best as she can to unstick a very sticky situation though, but there's only so much she can do to still believably engage with the Groovyhairs to essentially protect her parents and their family.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, scartact said:

When Pastor Tim says Paige seems different and more burdened, I think it's more about us not underestimating that Pastor Tim is still savvy enough to recognize something is off with her.

Yeah, I thought it was also very much about how Paige was finding ways to make her feelings clear while still fulfilling the letter of her "punishment." Every time we see Paige she's obviously looking burdened with her eyebrows pointed up. She's always wanted her feelings to be known, and she's been sighing her way through this whole operation. She still resents having to do this and wants her feelings respected.

Also, though, Pastor Tim also might have reason to want to get back involved and see Paige as less tragically burdened than he sees her as no longer that happy with him or confiding in him. 

[izabella]

I would love for Paige to find a new religion and tell Pastor Tim she's leaving him for a priest or rabbi as her spiritual advisor, thanks for all your support, byeee!

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

It didn't? We saw several seconds of a full-on porno video... can't believe they wouldn't "warn" for that.

I agree. Sometimes I remember Keri is pregnant and that's why she's in so many coats and jumps into bed and pulls up the covers, but they handle it really well. 

Last night was the first time I actually noticed the bump, it was perfectly clear when she turns toward the passed out Don, under the sheet as she was adjusting it.  Adorable really.

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

The Don storyline is starting to bug me now that I've thought about it more. Why did Elizabeth choose Don and Young Hee if she didn't already know he had a weak spot she could exploit, or hasn't discovered one in more than 7 months? There must be several others who have Level 4 access and would be much better targets. I think she took a break and just enjoyed her friendship with Young Hee for a while, rationalizing that she was getting close to her to then use Don. She got close enough to be trusted to stay over with the kids, but it yielded nothing useful.

WAY back when this story began (which, by the way, I really appreciate, because in reality it often took months or even years) to develop an effective agent, Don was their most likely candidate.  I vaguely remember them discussing it, although we didn't really know it was for the level 4 access at William's place of work.  As for choosing him?  I can easily believe that there are not many, if any, vulnerable options with that level of clearance/trust.  We are talking about the most secret of secrets dangerous biological weapons here that could potentially wipe out millions of people.  In that kind of environment, I seriously doubt there are janitors or secretaries, the very few scientists involved do all of their own stuff.  If anything, not finding useful ways to turn/bribe/seduce Don makes complete sense.  I still don't know the play here, but if it is blackmail that could easily blow up in the Jennings' faces as well.  This is an intelligent man, well vetted, and from South Korea, a place torn by war and quite familiar with the Soviet Union.

We shall see.

1 hour ago, clanstarling said:

Of all the characters this show has produced, Pastor Groovyhair and his wife bother me the most. They never feel quite right to me - and I'm not sure if that's deliberate. I've been able to get the mindset of most of the characters, whether I agreed with them or not, but they just elude me. Maybe because I'm not religious.

Oh ditto!  He bugs me on several levels, and I keep wondering if there is something I'm not getting about the dude, if I am supposed to like him, because I really don't.  It's just so offensive, from taking the money from Paige in the beginning to imposing himself into their family before he even knew about the whole Russian Spy thing, to the incredible stupidity/ego of trying to boss KGB around!  I mean, the hell?  I've complained about Paige's naivety in this show, but this is a grown man who dabbles enough in politics to presumably have some frickin' clue! 

After the last episode, he's reminding me more and more of the father in The Poisonwood Bible, so full of himself and his own divinity/rightness that he's blind to truths and to people and their motivations/needs/intelligence. 

It's not just because he's annoying to the story/TV show, I detest him on a more heart-level.

50 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I don't think Phillip isn't aware that Page is overextending herself, I think he doesn't give a shit.  It reminds me of the flashback of Elizabeth and a little Page at the community pool when E pushes Page in the pool to teach her how to swim.  P&E are not sympathetic people, they want results.  They have several murders under their belt to prove that.

I think he completely cares, but because of Paige's actions, and frankly, his wife's, there is absolutely nothing he can do about it.  Reality is what it is, the Pastor/wife must be controlled one way or another.  If he didn't care about Paige?  They'd already be dead.  They are taking all of these risks?  For Paige.  As far as killing people?  Again, soldiers in a wars kill people, innocent people, every single day, it's happening right this minute with our drones/soldiers and with those soldiers fighting against us, and with other conflicts around the world.  It never stops. 

In Philip/Elizabeth's world, the threat of total annihilation of their country exists, and they are fighting that.  They know that technologically the United States is well ahead of the USSR, and who has his finger on the button?  Reagan.  They are terrified.  In addition to that, they know what war really is.  The United States, other than in Pearl Harbor, has never really faced war in our streets, or hadn't until 9/11.  Russians lost millions in the two world wars, and it's people starved, had bombs going off on their streets, it wasn't "Over there, Over there" it was RIGHT HERE, and they grew up in that rubble.

It's just a completely different mindset.

Do I believe in what they are fighting for?  No.  Do I understand it?  Yes.

 

ETA

I watched The Day After and Threads yesterday.  Threads was much scarier and much more realistic.  You can find it on You Tube, but it's tricky, look for the Portuguese or Spanish subtitled one, it's in English and the only one still up.  Why isn't that show available or shown on TV any more?  It's still relevant, and frankly, since I think our danger from nukes is greater now than ever before?  Should be seen by everyone.  I particularly loved the inefficiency and nativity of the government, and that becoming an even scarier part of the aftermath.  Of course, that completely supports and plays on the USA gun owners fears and demands, those citizens were helpless against their armed soldiers as well.  Would that part happen?  Oh hell yes.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Last night was the first time I actually noticed the bump, it was perfectly clear when she turns toward the passed out Don, under the sheet as she was adjusting it.  Adorable really.

WAY back when this story began (which, by the way, I really appreciate, because in reality it often took months or even years) to develop an effective agent, Don was their most likely candidate.  I vaguely remember them discussing it, although we didn't really know it was for the level 4 access at William's place of work.  As for choosing him?  I can easily believe that there are not many, if any, vulnerable options with that level of clearance/trust.  We are talking about the most secret of secrets dangerous biological weapons here that could potentially wipe out millions of people.  In that kind of environment, I seriously doubt there are janitors or secretaries, the very few scientists involved do all of their own stuff.  If anything, not finding useful ways to turn/bribe/seduce Don makes complete sense.  I still don't know the play here, but if it is blackmail that could easily blow up in the Jennings' faces as well.  This is an intelligent man, well vetted, and from South Korea, a place torn by war and quite familiar with the Soviet Union.

We shall see.

Oh ditto!  He bugs me on several levels, and I keep wondering if there is something I'm not getting about the dude, if I am supposed to like him, because I really don't.  It's just so offensive, from taking the money from Paige in the beginning to imposing himself into their family before he even knew about the whole Russian Spy thing, to the incredible stupidity/ego of trying to boss KGB around!  I mean, the hell?  I've complained about Paige's naivety in this show, but this is a grown man who dabbles enough in politics to presumably have some frickin' clue! 

After the last episode, he's reminding me more and more of the father in The Poisonwood Bible, so full of himself and his own divinity/rightness that he's blind to truths and to people and their motivations/needs/intelligence. 

It's not just because he's annoying to the story/TV show, I detest him on a more heart-level.

I think he completely cares, but because of Paige's actions, and frankly, his wife's, there is absolutely nothing he can do about it.  Reality is what it is, the Pastor/wife must be controlled one way or another.  If he didn't care about Paige?  They'd already be dead.  They are taking all of these risks?  For Paige.  As far as killing people?  Again, soldiers in a wars kill people, innocent people, every single day, it's happening right this minute with our drones/soldiers and with those soldiers fighting against us, and with other conflicts around the world.  It never stops. 

In Philip/Elizabeth's world, the threat of total annihilation of their country exists, and they are fighting that.  They know that technologically the United States is well ahead of the USSR, and who has his finger on the button?  Reagan.  They are terrified.  In addition to that, they know what war really is.  The United States, other than in Pearl Harbor, has never really faced war in our streets, or hadn't until 9/11.  Russians lost millions in the two world wars, and it's people starved, had bombs going off on their streets, it wasn't "Over there, Over there" it was RIGHT HERE, and they grew up in that rubble.

It's just a completely different mindset.

Do I believe in what they are fighting for?  No.  Do I understand it?  Yes.

Obviously, I don't know how long the series is supposed to run, but a possible story arc that has been ignored for now is the most realistic, in terms of U.S. intelligence disasters, and KGB triumphs, is a high level FBI or CIA official deciding, on his own, without any recruitment effort, to walk into a Soviet embassy or consulate, to offer to sell information. That was Hanssen and Aldrich, and it was why they were so hard to catch. They were high up on the food chain, and could thus protect themselves, and they hadn't been recruited. Hell, the KGB didn't even know Hanssen's identity for years, and years, as he was sellng secrets.

Now, maybe the writers didn't go this route because it would have been harder to include E & P in it; a walk in would have little chance to interact with an illegal, but certainly the KGB tried to identify Hanssen in all those years, and it might have been kind of fun to have E &P being involved in such an effort.

[Umbelina]

Even if they did, would the Residentura bother to tell Philip and Elizabeth that? 

They might use the information, or rather, Center would, to guide them in a particular direction, but why would they share that with embedded agents?  If anything, that would be kept from as many people as possible, especially agents that could be captured at any moment.

I think that's where they are going to go with Oleg though, on the other side of things mostly.  I posted my theory in the spoiler thread a few weeks ago.  Frankly, Tatiana may already be involved with that.  There is a reason she's on screen, and it's not to have sex with Oleg...

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Now, maybe Don's never had a drink in his life,

Quote

 

I'd have to go back and check, but I think Don was revealed to be something of a vinophile when "Patti" first had dinner with Young Hee's family.  I thought that was why Elizabeth chose a bottle of wine (ostensibly as a present for her brother) that was of such quality that Don would certainly want to try it out.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Inquisitionist said:

I'd have to go back and check, but I think Don was revealed to be something of a vinophile when "Patti" first had dinner with Young Hee's family.  I thought that was why Elizabeth chose a bottle of wine (ostensibly as a present for her brother) that was of such quality that Don would certainly want to try it out.

Yeah, if that is the case, the notion of an experienced wine drinker, who isn't a black-out drunk, not realizing, after the shock of the situation wears off, that he was drugged, is just ridiculous. I really hope the writers have E conveying the reality of this situation to Gabriel. 

[J-Man]

3 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Funny that this episode did not have the Nudity warning label although it was copious for this show.

There was definitely a written warning that "This program contains nudity" on the ratings screen at the beginning of the episode and during several breaks. It was not in the voice over, however.

I noticed that Alison Wright is no longer listed in the opening credits, so I guess she will only be making guest appearances, if that, in the future?

[jjj]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

There was a warning for sexual content, because I recall wondering who would be doing it. 

I actually thought the warning was more strongly worded than usual. 

ETA:  Just pulled up the episode, and in addition to "Sexual Situations" in the rating slide, it also adds: "This program contains nudity"

(Also says "Violence")

Edited May 13, 2016 by jjj

[jjj]

17 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

On a totally unrelated point, I appreciated the styling of Alice, Mrs. Pastor Tim, at the party. Her dress was a nod to Princess Diana's famous maternity dresses. I was pregnant at the same time and had similar billowy dresses. Mrs. Tim managed to carry the look to the extreme, though, especially with the retro 40's hairstyle. Oh, the memories this show brings back. 

That is exactly who she was mimicking (Princess Diana), although I did not realize it until you said that!

[DrSpaceman73]

I remember watching The day after but don't recall it being particularly traumatizing. I was 10.  

 

What I DO recall traumatizing me was Red Dawn.  I was horrified afterward of Soviets paratrooping in and taking over.  And the school shooting.   In fact on 911 that movie was my first thought, as if some bigger attack was coming, because my wife was working out in a rural school like that one at the time. Red Dawn was far worse one me than the day after.  I recall little if any of that movie

The ironic thing of course being school shootings are almost commonplace now, but we shoot ourselves 

Add me to the list still confused about the end game with the Chinese couple.  No idea.  Damn though, pushing the nudity as far as possible on this cable network.  Yes you occasionally see glimpses of butts on other shows, but these were long gazing shots

 

I'll repeat I still won't believe Martha is alive until we actually see her.  

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

 

ETA

I watched The Day After and Threads yesterday.  Threads was much scarier and much more realistic.  You can find it on You Tube, but it's tricky, look for the Portuguese or Spanish subtitled one, it's in English and the only one still up.  Why isn't that show available or shown on TV any more?  It's still relevant, and frankly, since I think our danger from nukes is greater now than ever before?  Should be seen by everyone.  I particularly loved the inefficiency and nativity of the government, and that becoming an even scarier part of the aftermath.  Of course, that completely supports and plays on the USA gun owners fears and demands, those citizens were helpless against their armed soldiers as well.  Would that part happen?  Oh hell yes.

 

4

I posted a link to it in the small talk thread. The whole thing is also on Vimeo. You can just time Threads , Fim into google and it should show up, or check small talk

Edited May 13, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[kay1864]

36 minutes ago, J-Man said:

There was definitely a written warning that "This program contains nudity" on the ratings screen at the beginning of the episode and during several breaks. It was not in the voice over, however.

Weird.  I DVR'd the original showing, and although the TV-MA warning listed "sexual situations" (and language and violence), it definitely didn't mention nudity the way the MarthaChairSex and ElizabethHeadVeinSex episodes did.  

Maybe it was added to the repeat showings and/or On Demand?  

[DrSpaceman73]

I know there was a nudity warning on mine, DVR of first showing.  

[kay1864]

6 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I know there was a nudity warning on mine, DVR of first showing.  

In case you're wondering how I know (in my mind at least; I'm not at home to check the DVR), whenever any show has that warning, I always say "Nudity?" out loud in my best shocked-Clouseau voice.

(from A Shot in the Dark, where L'Inspecteur finds out he is about to enter a nudist colony.  Hilarity ensues.)

Edited May 13, 2016 by kay1864

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Even if they did, would the Residentura bother to tell Philip and Elizabeth that? 

No, they wouldn't, but we would see it since we spend time at the Rezidentura.  Actually, now that I think about, wasn't there a guy who did exactly that?  He walked into the Rezidentur and wanted to tell them some secrets?  I vaguely recall the Rezidentura people were watching him, via closed circuit camera, sitting in a room by himself and debating what to do.

[Hanahope]

13 hours ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I must have been in a coma in 1983.  I've never heard of The Day After and I was 29 at the time.  The only excuse I have is we were implementing a computer system at work and I was putting in a lot of hours.  I've never heard of the other movies mentioned either - Threads, Testament - and was only vaguely aware of David Copperfield.

You're not the only one.  I recognized the name, but I have absolutely no memory of watching this show or even the "event" around it, other people talking about, etc.  I was 19 at the time and in college, so maybe just being in a bubble at the time I didn't pay it any attention.  I know I wasn't watching very much TV at that time, out with friends a lot.  I don't recall hearing about the other movies or the big David Copperfield Statute of Liberty thing either (and I always loved magic, my 21st birthday was spent at the Magic Castle in Hollywood).  I really must have been in my own world then.  Either that or my memory of those events was blipped out.

I'm not surprised Pastor Tim picked up on Paige seemingly burdened by something.  Gee Phil, you think?  I loved the visual of Paige in that huge car-boat.  I didn't learn to drive a car that big.

Bout time Elizabeth started to grow a heart and realize that her actions not only really hurt people, but herself as well.  I was wondering whether Don will do something bad because of feeling so shamed by the event.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Hanahope