S04.E09: The Day After

[madam magpie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Keri Russell can do whatever she wants. I just think it is lazy writing to have the E character so frequently taking her clothes off as a plot device, especially, as you note, as a plot device which nearly unfailingly works for the character of E. I think we are largely in agreement.  

I don't think so. I don't think it's lazy writing for Elizabeth to try honey traps. I do think it's unrealistic for them always to work. This show is incredibly well written, and I don't believe anyone in charge is being gratuitous by having Kerri Russell take off her clothes too much. There's always a reason that supports the larger story, so my guess is that there will be a reason here too.

[Darrenbrett]

3 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I don't think so. I don't think it's lazy writing for Elizabeth to try honey traps. I do think it's unrealistic for them always to work. This show is incredibly well written, and I don't believe anyone in charge is being gratuitous by having Kerri Russell take off her clothes too much. There's always a reason that supports the larger story, so my guess is that there will be a reason here too.

Agreed. If the show-runners were to NOT have Elizabeth take off her clothes very often, simply for fear it would be interpreted as gratuitous, then that would be poor writing. There's a reason why honey-trapping was employed so often by both sides - because, in reality it worked fairly often, in comparison to other techniques. But it certainly didn't work all the time, either. And now feels like a good juncture in the show to explore a honey-trap situation that goes sideways.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, whiporee said:

 

I think they really messed up on something. They skipped KAL 007, which would have sent everyone into a tailspin, na took place about two months before The Day After. Can you imagine Phillip and Elizabeth trying to justify THAT to Paige, or even Pastor Tim? It throws E's "they dropped the atomic bomb" phrase into a lot of context, and I think it would have really made Tim and Alice's benign avoidance of their situation a lot harder.

 

From what they've said they considered it, tried to work it in, and then realized it's just not part of their story. They're not telling the history of the Cold War. The Tims aren't holding Philip and Elizabeth responsible for everything the USSR does, they're focused on what they are doing day by day in the US. They didn't have anything to do with the jet. They can always bring it up in conversation any time. If they focused on it they'd probably need a whole episode for that and it didn't really apply to the stuff they were doing.

12 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

There's a reason why honey-trapping was employed so often by both sides - because, in reality it worked fairly often, in comparison to other techniques. But it certainly didn't work all the time, either. And now feels like a good juncture in the show to explore a honey-trap situation that goes sideways.

Also a lot of the honeytrapping Elizabeth does is just giving some guy who goes for easy sex easy sex. The main time we saw her get a guy to actually do something for her because of his interest was Brad, and he didn't even have sex with that guy. She appealed to his protective instincts by using her real feelings about her rape.

Which reminds me, btw, that it's funny how Elizabeth is down on EST when she's the one most likely to do EST-stuff with her sources. She laid out to Lisa how she felt about Philip in S2, and told the story of her rape to Brad in a way that clearly helped her not only process it but understand that it had led her to shut off her feelings, and that those feelings were just now coming back. That's a pretty great breakthrough and sometimes Philip hasn't ever really been able to do. Even his memory at the start of the season--one he's been trying to work through for a while--didn't seem to be something he was able to come to such a clear understanding about.

[TimWil]

I'm sadly resigned now to the fact that Young Hee will not be revealed as a North Korea/China operative and we will never know how freaking awesome her reaction to Elizabeth's blackmail plot would be. Sigh.

[Tetraneutron]

39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I hope the writers haven't taken this approach to simply write a scene where Keri Russell takes her clothes off again. A plot line where Don or Young Hee is a complusive gambler, with subsequent huge financial problems, or something along those lines, would have been better.

It didn't work, though. E tried to honey-trap Don and failed, so she resorted to tricking him. As for the compulsive gambler idea, that's what that scene with E babysitting YoungHee's kids was about. She was searching through pockets and files looking for something she could use against them. Gambling debts, non-vanilla-hetero sexual preferences, drug problems. But she didn't find any. Largely because if she did there wouldn't be the drama of E having to give up her friendship. It would just be a routine job. 

[Bannon]

It may be lazy writing to have E getting naked again in this instance because Don is a poor target for such an approach, and E should be bright enough to know this. Having otherwise smart characters, or a character who should be smart, doing stupid things, to advance the plot, is lazy writing. As stated above, if they figure a way to write themselves out of this in a way that doesn't entail Don being an idiot, fine. Having sex as a weapon fail with Don isn't terrible, but E really should be bright enough to know that it is a poor weapon to use against Don, and when the weapon fails, Don, not being an idiot, will greatly suspect that E is a foreign agent. We'll see how it goes.  

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bannon

[Chaos Theory]

I am starting to think a lot of this should go in the speculation page but since I am here.  The Russians do eventually lose the Cold War and many Russian spies do eventually get caught.  It is possible that the stress start to take its toll on the Jennings and they begin to fail more then they succeed.   This could be the first of their major failures that gets them eventually caught.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[stagmania]

8 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

It didn't work, though. E tried to honey-trap Don and failed, so she resorted to tricking him. As for the compulsive gambler idea, that's what that scene with E babysitting YoungHee's kids was about. She was searching through pockets and files looking for something she could use against them. Gambling debts, non-vanilla-hetero sexual preferences, drug problems. But she didn't find any. Largely because if she did there wouldn't be the drama of E having to give up her friendship. It would just be a routine job. 

I don't think she actually did try to honey trap him-she drugged him before she even made a move. She knew Don wasn't going to be susceptible to a standard seduction, so the plan is more elaborate than that. I think a big part of this story is that Don is a hard target to crack-he's clean, no obvious faults or mistakes to exploit, loyal to his wife and family and generally content with his life. Elizabeth is determined to try anyway, and I'm sure there's more to the plan that we haven't yet seen. But I do think there's potential here to explore a scenario where the operation fails because they picked a bad target-something the show is probably overdue for, as others have mentioned. 

[jjj]

Yes, what Elizabeth eventually did to Don was the last resort, having failed to get a simpler path to blackmail.  I assume, like others above (not all), that the blackmail is intended to provide William with access to Level 4, or that the pathogen for this new dreaded disease will be transported out of Level 4 and handed to William.  They need Don alive and credentialed for the plan to work.  But I will not be surprised if we have not seen the last of Young Hee -- I think something will happen with her and Elizabeth that will really push Elizabeth to the breaking point.  The writers have invested so much time in showing how Elizabeth is a different person with Young Hee, that I think the payoff needs to be more than "I'm really going to miss her." 

We have seen Elizabeth intentionally (scientist on street in Season One) (guy working under car) and more randomly (security officer in Season One) kill people, but those scenes with Don in her apartment were repulsive in a whole new way, because he is another decent guy (like guy under car), but one whom she has known for eight months.  And the lotion, ick. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by jjj

[Anela]

Paige looked like me, when I was trying to learn to drive. I never did manage (which is a pain over here). I appreciate the lighter moments.

I don't remember ever seeing anything like The Day After, when I was a kid. I was eight when it aired, and nine when "Threads" was aired, living in England, with a mum who shielded us as best she could, from anything scary on the television. I remember a hijacking of a plane, and seeing live footage of a body being dumped out of it (?), and mum suddenly deciding that we all needed to go to the movies, to see something kid-friendly. I did watch Carrie, at some point, with her putting her hands over our eyes whenever something scary was happening (which we protested). She didn't expect the ending, and neither did we - the lights had gone out in most of the rooms upstairs, and as we went up to bed that night, we were *glued* to her sides. 

I saw "The Day After" in 1999, when it came on the TV following something else I'd been watching, on a beautiful Friday afternoon. I ended up sobbing. I saw "Threads" last year, after someone mentioned it (maybe here), and it traumatized me a bit. I've finally blocked out the memory of it. It's terrifying that it could happen to any country (and did). 

[VCRTracking]

I like that Paige is learning to improvise "My mom sends her regards" or something to Pastor Tim and Phillip looks at her like "Whoa. we didn't rehearse that!"

[lucindabelle]

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Granted, I was maybe 10 when The Day After came out, but I don't remember it being a thing.  No one in school talked about, my family, including extended family, didn't watch it.  I don't know of friends' families watching it.  I vaguely remember hearing about it at the time.  It wasn't really until a few years later and I was in junior high that I heard people talking about it, and by then it was "old".  So, I don't think everyone watched it, or was affected by it, at the time.  I kind of wish that had at least one of our main or recurring characters not watching it.  Even if they were interested, it seems odd that no one had a conflict or something.

This.

Over on Disqus people are reminiscing about how huge an event it was. But I suspect that the people most affected were children for whom this was a new idea. I was in college, and yeah, people talked about it because it was a "huge media event," but lots of eye rolls. It was by no means the first apocalyptic type movie we'd seen. Hell most of had seen original Planet of the Apes many times. My mom doesn't remember it at all.

The writers of The Americans clearly did not live through these days themselves. Lots is researched and done well but every now and then things are wrong... like for example the idea that Yaz was a common thing for teens to play who weren't specifically into British and New Wave. Also, we should have seen Paige rocking the Pirate Look in 1981, knickers et al. You just werent a teen if you didn't.

[topanga]

18 minutes ago, Anela said:

Paige looked like me, when I was trying to learn to drive. I never did manage (which is a pain over here). I appreciate the lighter moments. 

I loved it when Philip kept telling Paige to blink. She looked terrified! Kudos to the actress. 

BTW, where is "over here?"

[Anela]

1 minute ago, topanga said:

I loved it when Philip kept telling Paige to blink. She looked terrified! Kudos to the actress. 

BTW, where is "over here?"

Oh! America. :) I grew up in England, mainly, and moved back over here just in time to be learning to drive - or to try. I live about a thirty minute drive from shops I need to visit here, and there is no bus. 

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

The writers of The Americans clearly did not live through these days themselves. Lots is researched and done well but every now and then things are wrong... like for example the idea that Yaz was a common thing for teens to play who weren't specifically into British and New Wave. Also, we should have seen Paige rocking the Pirate Look in 1981, knickers et al. You just werent a teen if you didn't.

Growing up at the time doesn't necessarily help, though. Peoples' memories can be very biased depending on where they were and their age, plus we often just remember stuff wrong. Like as I think we talked about before, the guy who wanted to originally use Yaz was probably remembering his sister, who was specifically a fan, listening to them probably later than Philip got that album. And Holly Taylor then adlibbed lines about how "everyone at school" was talking about Yaz's "new album" because she has no idea about this stuff at all.

That said oh yeah, I had some knickers. Of course I did. I think I even had a velvet pair. I was a very fancy pirate.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

I found this post to be quite amusing comparing E's friendship with P's. Isn't it strange that P has maintained a friendship with this guy who is kind of prickly by nature and (I suspect) he is  not at all easy to make new friends. But, YH has a great sense of humor and she seems to be the perfect kind of friend people would like to have as a friend. But, P keeps his friendship while E loses hers.

It's not strange to me.  Stan lives across the street and knows Philip and Elizabeth as they present themselves to the world - travel agents with two (real) children.  As far as P&E go, that IS their identity and has been for years. 

Young Hee only knows Elizabeth as Patsy, with a back story that is completely made up and she knows nothing of Philip or the kids.  YH was always a temporary means to an end, while Stan is part of their "real life."  Patsy doesn't exist in any way other than as a temporary cover.

Stan is not one of their missions - he just happened to be an FBI agent.  If he were a shoe salesman, he'd still likely be friends with Philip just without any thought to assets, FBI's, etc., because Philip and family live across the street and the kids would have known each other anyway as neighbors.

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

But I suspect that the people most affected were children for whom this was a new idea. I was in college, and yeah, people talked about it because it was a "huge media event," but lots of eye rolls.

Right, I was 18 when TDA aired, and while I don't remember anyone being traumatized by it (or at least admitting to being traumatized by it), I definitely remember people snarking on it.

Edited May 12, 2016 by sugarbaker design

[Tetraneutron]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I don't think she actually did try to honey trap him-she drugged him before she even made a move. She knew Don wasn't going to be susceptible to a standard seduction, so the plan is more elaborate than that. I think a big part of this story is that Don is a hard target to crack-he's clean, no obvious faults or mistakes to exploit, loyal to his wife and family and generally content with his life. Elizabeth is determined to try anyway, and I'm sure there's more to the plan that we haven't yet seen. But I do think there's potential here to explore a scenario where the operation fails because they picked a bad target-something the show is probably overdue for, as others have mentioned. 

I agree it probably won't go smoothly, but we've seen plenty of plans that didn't go as planned. Annelise wasn't supposed to be killed, Larrick wasn't supposed to go rogue, Jared wasn't supposed to murder his parents, and just last week Lisa wasn't supposed to start drinking again and threaten to tell everything. I assume something else will happen with Don. 

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

The problem, from a plot writing vantage point, is that Don is a really sh*tty blackmail target. His biggest vice is a few porn tapes, and he's not a moron. As soon as E makes the blackmail threat, he really oughta' know that he was drugged, and that E is KGB, which means his next step is a phone call to the FBI. It just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, from the beginning I wondered how "blackmail" would work here, since there were no cameras (that we saw anyway.) 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It's more likely Philip will show up as some sort of internal affairs for the company Don works and confronts him about sleeping with a Patti and questions his security clearance.  Once he changes it they can give the new security info to  William.  They've done a shortened version of it before in season 2 with the other spy family (the one who got murdered).  

I initially thought that might be it too, but somehow, it just doesn't seem to fit. 

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

This would entail Don being too dumb to check up on Phillp's identity. I was able to buy it with Margaret, because desperately lonely people will lie to themselves about ridiculous stuff. This entire arc with Don appears to hinge on Don not knowing he was drugged, and frankly, that's really stupid.   

I can believe Don possibly not thinking he was drugged, depending on the drug used.  I was slipped a date-rape drug once and was sick for 3 days, also, I knew exactly how much I'd had to drink (1 tiny glass of champagne and 1/2 a cocktail.)  Luckily, I was with a friend who got me out of there and took care of me.  We don't know what kind of drug Elizabeth gave him though, so maybe he won't have bad after effects, and simply think the wine hit him and he blacked out?  It can happen.  I have to admit, I had no idea men could tell if they've had sex though.  Of course, he could have been banging her and passed out before ejaculation.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Since we have no idea what her plan is after this, it seems a little early to assume they've screwed anything. She's been studying their family dynamics so this wouldn't be a generic blackmail plan.

Yeah, I agree.  Still, I can't figure out what the play is here.  The normals:  Honeytrap.  Blackmail.  Bribery.  Idealogy.  don't really fit here.  The guy isn't going to leave his job (leaving a position open to William) just to move the family away either.  So, kind of as I said right after the show, WHAT is the plan?

3 hours ago, topanga said:

Wasn't her goal to allow William to have Level 4 security clearance? I would imagine that there are only a certain number of those positions available. With Don out, this may pave the way for William.

I hope Elizabeth won't have to resort to having a guy's car smash him to death, as she had to do for Lisa.

But it's not usually that simple. People in management will have to clear William for that level. He'll have to be screened, questioned, etc. even though he already works for the company. And if Don is at all suspicious of Elizabeth (and now Philip), I would think he would make that information known.

You'd also think that level 4 office would have a ton of security other than just the codes... Then again, from reading spy stuff, I know there were teams (on all sides) that could, and did, get into just about any place they wanted to.  I wish they would bring in a team to do that kind of stuff, and not just hand it to the Jennings to do though, it would be far more realistic.

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

Given the writers' track record with constructing complex and surprising stories, I'm pretty comfortable giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have a solid plan for the Young Hee/Don stuff. They've certainly taken their time in setting it up; I don't see any reason to think it will devolve into anything too predictable or detrimental to the show.

Yeah, that's where I am as well.  Then again, Elizabeth seemed to think it was now over between them, "I really liked her." or "I'll really miss her."  Was it one, or both of those sentiments?

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I hope the writers haven't taken this approach to simply write a scene where Keri Russell takes her clothes off again. A plot line where Don or Young Hee is a complusive gambler, with subsequent huge financial problems, or something along those lines, would have been better.

Elizabeth was hoping for something like that, she didn't find a thing.   I don't think that would have made the story better, because it would have been too easy. 

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

I don't think so. I don't think it's lazy writing for Elizabeth to try honey traps. I do think it's unrealistic for them always to work. This show is incredibly well written, and I don't believe anyone in charge is being gratuitous by having Kerri Russell take off her clothes too much. There's always a reason that supports the larger story, so my guess is that there will be a reason here too.

They don't always work, but it's not lazy.  As I said above, the four standards for recruiting agents are:

• Honeytraps
• Blackmail
• Bribery
• Ideology

That's not Philip and Elizabeth, that's spying, assessing your target, or possible targets, and finding a way in.  It doesn't matter what nationality or political bend the spy is/has, it's what they all do.  Now, I suppose, especially as you age, honeytrap-by-proxy might also be pretty common, or the recruitment of someone who is already having an illicit affair with a target/mark, and having them do their spying for you, or demand increasing gifts or things that involve money like a new apartment or financial help since their mother needs and operation or they lost their job which leaves the target/mark vulnerable to bribery.

Anyway, I hope the play here surprises us, but yeah, we knew from the beginning Young Hee would eventually be hurt.

After those previews (I posted them in the spoiler thread) I'm far more interested in Pastor/Paige/Preggowife right now.

[stagmania]

20 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I agree it probably won't go smoothly, but we've seen plenty of plans that didn't go as planned. Annelise wasn't supposed to be killed, Larrick wasn't supposed to go rogue, Jared wasn't supposed to murder his parents, and just last week Lisa wasn't supposed to start drinking again and threaten to tell everything. I assume something else will happen with Don. 

Well, that's my point-they haven't yet shown us an instance where they simply failed to turn a target because they picked someone who couldn't be manipulated or duped into treason. Yes, things have gone wrong in other ways, but in Don they have an opportunity to explore a different type of failed operation.

[jjj]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I like that Paige is learning to improvise "My mom sends her regards" or something to Pastor Tim and Phillip looks at her like "Whoa. we didn't rehearse that!"

She actually said "My mom sends her love," and yes, Philip totally did a double-take on that -- surprise or admiration?

By the way, that was a very nice apartment for the Don seduction.  I start to think the KGB made a mint selling off its properties at some point!  Most have been much more decrepit than Patty's apartment. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, from the beginning I wondered how "blackmail" would work here, since there were no cameras (that we saw anyway.) 

I initially thought that might be it too, but somehow, it just doesn't seem to fit. 

I can believe Don possibly not thinking he was drugged, depending on the drug used.  I was slipped a date-rape drug once and was sick for 3 days, also, I knew exactly how much I'd had to drink (1 tiny glass of champagne and 1/2 a cocktail.)  Luckily, I was with a friend who got me out of there and took care of me.  We don't know what kind of drug Elizabeth gave him though, so maybe he won't have bad after effects, and simply think the wine hit him and he blacked out?  It can happen.  I have to admit, I had no idea men could tell if they've had sex though.  Of course, he could have been banging her and passed out before ejaculation.

Yeah, I agree.  Still, I can't figure out what the play is here.  The normals:  Honeytrap.  Blackmail.  Bribery.  Idealogy.  don't really fit here.  The guy isn't going to leave his job (leaving a position open to William) just to move the family away either.  So, kind of as I said right after the show, WHAT is the plan?

You'd also think that level 4 office would have a ton of security other than just the codes... Then again, from reading spy stuff, I know there were teams (on all sides) that could, and did, get into just about any place they wanted to.  I wish they would bring in a team to do that kind of stuff, and not just hand it to the Jennings to do though, it would be far more realistic.

Yeah, that's where I am as well.  Then again, Elizabeth seemed to think it was now over between them, "I really liked her." or "I'll really miss her."  Was it one, or both of those sentiments?

Elizabeth was hoping for something like that, she didn't find a thing.   I don't think that would have made the story better, because it would have been too easy. 

They don't always work, but it's not lazy.  As I said above, the four standards for recruiting agents are:

• Honeytraps
• Blackmail
• Bribery
• Ideology

That's not Philip and Elizabeth, that's spying, assessing your target, or possible targets, and finding a way in.  It doesn't matter what nationality or political bend the spy is/has, it's what they all do.  Now, I suppose, especially as you age, honeytrap-by-proxy might also be pretty common, or the recruitment of someone who is already having an illicit affair with a target/mark, and having them do their spying for you, or demand increasing gifts or things that involve money like a new apartment or financial help since their mother needs and operation or they lost their job which leaves the target/mark vulnerable to bribery.

Anyway, I hope the play here surprises us, but yeah, we knew from the beginning Young Hee would eventually be hurt.

After those previews (I posted them in the spoiler thread) I'm far more interested in Pastor/Paige/Preggowife right now.

Yeah, I just can't construct a believable scenario where Don, having been invited up to E's faux apartment, given a glass of wine, and, next thing ya' know, waking up naked next to naked E, followed by being asked to do bad stuff,or having the blackout result in removal from work, does not put 1 and 1 together, and conclude he was drugged. Followed by a conclusion that E is a foreign agent. Followed by a call to the FBI.

Maybe they'll surprise me.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I just can't construct a believable scenario where Don, having been invited up to E's faux apartment, given a glass of wine, and, next thing ya' know, waking up naked next to naked E, followed by being asked to do bad stuff,or having the blackout result in removal from work, does not put 1 and 1 together, and conclude he was drugged. Followed by a conclusion that E is a foreign agent. Followed by a call to the FBI.

One optimistic thing about it is that, as we know, Elizabeth's been becoming friends with YH for months now. There's just no reason to do that if the idea was to work up to a blackmail scenario. Obviously there's some reason for her being friends with YH because any woman could make Don feel guilty about sleeping with her. Plus we know that this wasn't the plan they were always going for--being friends with YH was supposed to yield something. If this is the best they could come up with, why waste so many months on it? They've had plenty of time to check out Don both officially (looking into his life) and personally (by Elizabeth observing him). She's got to have more detailed info--like the kind Philip had about Martha--to work something out. 

[Chaos Theory]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

One optimistic thing about it is that, as we know, Elizabeth's been becoming friends with YH for months now. There's just no reason to do that if the idea was to work up to a blackmail scenario. Obviously there's some reason for her being friends with YH because any woman could make Don feel guilty about sleeping with her. Plus we know that this wasn't the plan they were always going for--being friends with YH was supposed to yield something. If this is the best they could come up with, why waste so many months on it? They've had plenty of time to check out Don both officially (looking into his life) and personally (by Elizabeth observing him). She's got to have more detailed info--like the kind Philip had about Martha--to work something out. 

But honey trapping Don was never the original plan.  Elizabeth/Patti became such good friends with Young He that she would let her babysit her kids for the night.  Elizabeth spent the night looking for blackmail/extortion or any other way to get to and at Don.  There was none. I think the worse thing she found was sone hard core porn.  So she got him drunk and I think he had more then one glass of wine and drugged him.  Shame is an interesting thing especially for someone tightly wound.  Will it work?  Don't know.  

[Umbelina]

Well, that was pretty SOFT core porn!  Ha.  A three some and possibly some anal was as far as it went...

[Bannon]

If, as it appears from the preview, that E concludes that Don is just a terrible target for sex as a weapon, and tries to stop the process, and Gabriel pressures her to go further, that might be ok.  It wouldn't be the first time that line managers, pressured from above, forced people doing the work to go down a path that those doing the work knew was a really crappy idea. The Challenger explosion comes to mind, which is a nice historical parallel.

If the Center, through Gabriel, pressures E into a disaster, that'd be pretty plausible.  

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

But honey trapping Don was never the original plan.  Elizabeth/Patti became such good friends with Young He that she would let her babysit her kids for the night.

Yeah, but again, they don't usually spend 8 months becoming somebody's BFF so they can search their house. The babysitting job seemed a desperate search for something to use with the understanding that if it failed, she'd do this. Which means while she was hoping to find something to use when she searched the house, but she already had this back-up plan in place if she didn't. Which says to me that this plan has to be carefully thought out over all these months where she's been getting to know the family. So it has to somehow be personalized to Don. It can't just be like Elizabeth sexing herself up and plopping herself down in a hotel lobby to get Yousef's attention--even in that case they'd studied relationships that Yousef has had. 

There could very well be something that we don't know about Don. Maybe he actually *has* done this before and that's why Elizabeth thought it would work. He gets up and runs out saying, "Sorry" without much confusion. Perhaps she's recreating a scenario that Don already once lived and so knows there's a certain reaction he's going to have beyond "Oops, I cheated on my wife and I feel terrible."

This is often the way they work these things, after all. Sometimes Elizabeth can just rely on being a hot woman and get in and out, sure, but other times the thing's tailored to the person's personality, like Martha and Brad.

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 

If, as it appears from the preview, that E concludes that Don is just a terrible target for sex as a weapon, and tries to stop the process, and Gabriel pressures her to go further, that might be ok.  

 

Or she just doesn't want to do the next part of the plan. Gabriel might not know that Young Hee is the person who's important to Elizabeth, or know how much she is. Philip does, which is why he told her they should just say it failed. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, but again, they don't usually spend 8 months becoming somebody's BFF so they can search their house. The babysitting job seemed a desperate search for something to use with the understanding that if it failed, she'd do this. Which means while she was hoping to find something to use when she searched the house, but she already had this back-up plan in place if she didn't. Which says to me that this plan has to be carefully thought out over all these months where she's been getting to know the family. So it has to somehow be personalized to Don. It can't just be like Elizabeth sexing herself up and plopping herself down in a hotel lobby to get Yousef's attention--even in that case they'd studied relationships that Yousef has had. 

There could very well be something that we don't know about Don. Maybe he actually *has* done this before and that's why Elizabeth thought it would work. He gets up and runs out saying, "Sorry" without much confusion. Perhaps she's recreating a scenario that Don already once lived and so knows there's a certain reaction he's going to have beyond "Oops, I cheated on my wife and I feel terrible."

This is often the way they work these things, after all. Sometimes Elizabeth can just rely on being a hot woman and get in and out, sure, but other times the thing's tailored to the person's personality, like Martha and Brad.

Or she just doesn't want to do the next part of the plan. Gabriel might not know that Young Hee is the person who's important to Elizabeth, or know how much she is. Philip does, which is why he told her they should just say it failed. 

The arc with William has entailed a lot of conversation with the Center really being incompetent about a lot of stuff, so it really would make sense for the Center to pressure E into an operation, over her objection that the operation was terribly suited for the target, with disaster ensuing. We've seen elements of that dynamic with Stan's handling of Oleg, with managers doing their level best to f*ck things up. This really is how human organizations work, across all ideologies, so I'll love it if they take this path, and I'll give the writers full credit for realism. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The arc with William has entailed a lot of conversation with the Center really being incompetent about a lot of stuff, so it really would make sense for the Center to pressure E into an operation, over her objection that the operation was terriby suited for the target, with disaster ensuing. We've seen elements of that dynamic with Stan's handling of Oleg, with managers doing their level best to f*ck things up. This really is how human organizatins work, across all ideologies, so I'll love it if they take this path, and I'll give the writers full credit for realism. 

We've definitely seen that, I just haven't seen any hint of it in this particular storyline. Elizabeth hasn't at all said that he's a bad target or anything like that. She seems to think he's a good target and just doesn't want to go through with it because it pains her to hurt Young Hee. Philip even suggested to her flat-out that she tell the Centre the operation failed and she refused. She's pushing herself to do it but also has cold feet, it seems.

[Bannon]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

We've definitely seen that, I just haven't seen any hint of it in this particular storyline. Elizabeth hasn't at all said that he's a bad target or anything like that. She seems to think he's a good target and just doesn't want to go through with it because it pains her to hurt Young Hee. Philip even suggested to her flat-out that she tell the Centre the operation failed and she refused. She's pushing herself to do it but also has cold feet, it seems.

She's been searching for a weak spot in the target. Not everyone has one, in terms of being pliable. The Center doesn't want to hear it.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She's been searching for a weak spot in the target. Not everyone has one, in terms of being pliable. The Center doesn't want to hear it.

But she also hasn't told them that, has she? Isn't that what Philip was saying she should say, that the operation failed, i.e., there was no weak spot? Or just tell them she tried the blackmail/honeytrap and it didn't work? He explicitly offered her an out and she went with it by saying she thought this was the only way in. So she thinks it's a way in. At least as of this episode. 

[scowl]

The best part for me was Elizabeth explaining the Soviet side of the nuclear arms race. The Soviets hadn't forgotten what happened after World War II. Not only had the U.S. used nuclear weapons but there were advocates in the Air Force, most notably USAF Chief of Staff Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay, who were publicly advocating an immediate nuclear attack on the Soviet Union before they got significant atomic weapons. LeMay, who was the architect of the air campaign against Germany, said it was the only time in history when a country had a weapon powerful enough to absolutely win a war therefore it made no sense not to use it. Churchill told Truman that just one nuclear bomb dropped on the Kremlin would be all that was needed to tear down the Iron Curtain and free millions of people. 

The Soviets were terrified of this talk. They truly felt that if they didn't become a terrifying nuclear threat that it was only a matter of time before the U.S. started dropping nukes on them. There was no reason to believe that Reagan wouldn't use nuclear weapons to continue to contain Communism. 

[RedheadZombie]

Was the Oleg/Tatiana sex scene necessary?  It was about as appealing as first season Martha/Clark.  Oleg especially grossed me out.  His post-coital glow of pasty white and sweaty made him look like he was dying, and not from pleasure.  I was never grossed out when he was with Nina.  He also seemed unbathed.  I was surprised by how repulsive I found it.  His facial expressions made me suspect he learned about acting sex scenes while watching porn.

When Philip told Elizabeth they didn't have to go through with their plans for Young Hee, I knew Elizabeth was going to go hardcore.  She does not like her weaknesses - which would include feeling affection for a mark - and I knew Don was going to pay a price.  The show took such pains to show Don was a reserved man who very clearly didn't want sex with "Patty".  To me, this is worse than the old lady over dosing.  Elizabeth babysat the children, and Young Hee seems to be as genuine a friend as you can have in this business.  Don is going to be destroyed through this process.

And the above is probably why I continue to feel more for Philip's struggles than Elizabeth's.  They're the opposite of what usually happens to damaged people.  Philip becomes more internal with his suffering, and Elizabeth lashes out and takes her suffering out on other people.  I'm sure many will argue with me, and that's fine.  When Elizabeth forced the old lady to kill herself, Elizabeth's defenders blamed it all on Martha.

Speaking of Martha - I agree with the commenter upthread.  I missed her.

9 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I remember watching "The Day After" very well. It was a very scary scenario. But what was even more scary was some review by someone apparently knowledgeable about the effects of nuclear explosion. They said they only had one criticism of the movie. They said it wasn't nearly realistic. They said the damage would be much, much worse if that ever happened in real life.

I agree with Paige. If it ever does happen, I'd like to be as close as possible to the "kill zone". I don't want to try and scrounge out a life in all that rubble while dealing with radiation sickness and the fact that everyone else left alive would be looking to kill me and eat me. Just too much to bear.

I was a kid, but I watched The Day After.  When everyone was watching it on this episode (which I think went on a little too long), I started thinking about how sad it was when Jane Alexander was bathing her dying child in the sink.  As it turns out, Jane Alexander wasn't even in the movie, so I have no idea what I was actually remembering.

I also agree with Paige's sentiment.  My mom called me on 9/11 completely distraught that I lived so near Chicago, which she feared may become a target.  I remember telling her that I hope the bomb drops on my head.  I have no interest living in the aftermath.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

But she also hasn't told them that, has she? Isn't that what Philip was saying she should say, that the operation failed, i.e., there was no weak spot? Or just tell them she tried the blackmail/honeytrap and it didn't work? He explicitly offered her an out and she went with it by saying she thought this was the only way in. So she thinks it's a way in. At least as of this episode. 

Yeah, I think Don leaping up, and running out naked, or halfway so, perhaps will convince E, after some thought, "Hmm, this isnt gong to work on this guy. If we lean on him, he's going to know he was drugged, which will mean he knows I'm a foreign agent. And he's the type to pick up the phone and call the FBI."

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

As it turns out, Jane Alexander wasn't even in the movie, so I have no idea what I was actually remembering.

You were remembering "Testament." That's the scene I always remember too--and then I have to correct myself that it wasn't from The Day After!

[RedheadZombie]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

You were remembering "Testament." That's the scene I always remember too--and then I have to correct myself that it wasn't from The Day After!

Thank You!  That really affected me, as well as the book Alas, Babylon I read in school.

[Darrenbrett]

One thing that really got under my skin in this episode was when Pastor Tim had the nerve to question Philip re: his own daughter, suggesting that they all get together "to see where they are". Now, admittedly, this is an unusual situation. But for a guy without kids to suggest the parents "come in" to talk about their own family relationship... man, serious overstepping of boundaries in my book. And I've seen "spiritual" leaders overstep bounds like that often in life. They tend to really overestimate their influence and place in people's lives. In other words: they suffer from a case of assumed divine entitlement. And I say this as a very spiritual person. Anyway, re: the show, let's just say that if the pastor were to suffer an unfortunate accident in the near future, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed :).

Edited May 13, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

One thing that really got under my nerves in this episode was when Pastor Tim had the nerve to question Philip re: his own daughter, suggesting that they all get together "to see where they are". Now, admittedly, this is an unusual situation. But for a guy without kids to suggest the parents "come in" to talk about their own family relationship... man, serious overstepping of boundaries in my book. And I've seen "spiritual" leaders overstep bounds like that often in life. They tend to really overestimate their influence and place in people's lives. In other words: they suffer from a case of assumed divine entitlement. And I say this as a very spiritual person. Anyway, re: the show, let's just say that if the pastor were to suffer an unfortunate accident in the near future, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed :).

You know, Pastor Tim is really an idiot.

He just threatened and assumed he had control over not one, but TWO KGB spies.  Talk about presumptuous, arrogant, and most of all, completely overestimating his abilities!  I mean, the hell?

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You know, Pastor Tim is really an idiot.

He just threatened and assumed he had control over not one, but TWO KGB spies.  Talk about presumptuous, arrogant, and most of all, completely overestimating his abilities!  I mean, the hell?

Yeah, and he has never be portrayed as being very bright, so having him do really stupid stuff is perfectly acceptable writing.

[AliShibaz]

8 hours ago, TimWil said:

I'm sadly resigned now to the fact that Young Hee will not be revealed as a North Korea/China operative and we will never know how freaking awesome her reaction to Elizabeth's blackmail plot would be. Sigh.

I'd guess that in the next episode, E will try to blackmail Don by showing him the pictures and threatening to send them to YH.

In fact, I'm not at all certain but I have a strong suspicion that could well backfire as Don might be able to blackmail E just as easily (or maybe even more easily) then she could blackmail him. Don may not know this. But, if he just went to his employer or to the FBI and told them the truth, wouldn't E have a huge problem? Wouldn't she be afraid of getting arrested and/or imprisoned? If part of Don's job is "security", he just may know about honey traps and he may realize what has happened to him.

Of course, Don may very well not know any of that - which leaves me very confused. I am probably more mystified by this incident than by most any others that have occurred in this show.

If Don's employer ever got involved (or the FBI), surely they could track down Elizabeth and they shouldn't have too much difficulty figuring out P & E are KGB agents. E would not have ever had YH over to her home. But if she ever purchased any of that product, there would be some kind of paper trail. Wouldn't there? Also, E & YH spent many hours trapsing around D.C. on foot trying to sell product to women. I'm guessing that surely E would have had to have purchased some product in order to become a sales person. Don't MLM  companies work that way?

Wait a minute. Surely YH must have called E when she wanted a babysitter. So even if she has a phone number to that switchboard, shouldn't that be a way for the FBI to get their hands on her?

Edited May 13, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

34 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You know, Pastor Tim is really an idiot.

He just threatened and assumed he had control over not one, but TWO KGB spies.  Talk about presumptuous, arrogant, and most of all, completely overestimating his abilities!  I mean, the hell?

So is his blabbermouth wife. I have an inexplicable hatred for both of them. I will be oh so very happy when one or both DIAF (Yippee! I've always wanted to use that Internet expression in a RL situation). Either them or the bully Maurice. Please make me happy and decapitate that S.O.B.

Edited May 12, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Stella Rose]

I don't care if E. has/had misgivings. 

I don't give a pasty white rat's ass if she feels bad. 

Don't.  Nope.  That was, to me, tantamount to rape.  To make Don, an obviously honorable, decent man, think he cheated on his wife - is beyond despicable.  Of all the rotten things we have seen P & E do over the years, this just stuck out as - non-redeemable.     I will have a hard time watching  - or at least watching with any sympathy for E. after this.  What will happen to this decent, kind, awesome  family?  Will he, being honorable tell his wife what he did?  Will they survive?  At what cost?   What of the three kids?  Ptooey.  I would have rather she bashed him over the head, gave him Lassa fever, or strangled him with her bare hands.  I hate this storyline more than I have words to describe how much I hate it..

Another 80s youth who was scarred for life by "The Day After".  Zuni doll levels of scarred for life.  Piffle.  Between that and (original recipe) Red Dawn - awful.  To an 80s kid:  Russians = E-vuhl.

[Ellaria]

6 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I was only ten when The Day After was released and I always got terrible nightmares, so I wasn't allowed to watch it. But I remember being terrified of nuclear war. My mom was an anti-nukes activist too, so we were always protesting something or other. ("No nukes are good nukes!") And my Brownie troop once wrote letters to Reagan asking for disarmament. It was such a big, scary thing back then. Everyone was aware of and affected by it somehow

I was a great deal older than 10 when The Day After aired. I found it to be incredibly disturbing, which was exactly its intent. I have never re-watched it but can still recall certain scenes vividly

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

Well, I said I "feared", not that I "assumed". If they can write their way out of this, in a way that doesn't entail Don being a moron, I'll tip my hat.

And I agree. I'm a little concerned about this storyline but let's see where it goes.

Finally...come on, Oleg, wake up! Sleeping with another female co-worker may not be such a great idea. I certainly hope that he is playing her but I suspect that isn't the case. I don't trust Tatiana. Oleg should be out in the clubs in DC looking for more appropriate companionship.

[madam magpie]

59 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You know, Pastor Tim is really an idiot.

He just threatened and assumed he had control over not one, but TWO KGB spies.  Talk about presumptuous, arrogant, and most of all, completely overestimating his abilities!  I mean, the hell?

I'd have been way too scared to do that too!! And why do people on TV always tip their hand? Just go to the Feds if you're really that scared. Or keep your mouth shut!

Edited May 12, 2016 by madam magpie

[AllyB]

On 12/5/2016 at 4:11 AM, JennyMominFL said:

 

Paige and Philip's post movie discussion took me back. I'm a decade younger than Paige but my family was completely upfront about issues like this so they answered any questions I had on the subject honestly. Though it was hearing the song, The Sun is Burning that sparked my questions. My parents were so straightforward about the subject that I knew that rather than offer hope, living in a neutral country meant we'd likely get bombed by both sides so any sites of strategic importance couldn't fall into the hands of the other side. I knew we lived close enough to an airport that was likely to be bombed so our deaths would be assured but far enough away that we'd experience a miserable few months of suffering first. And that my parents' plan in the event of nuclear war was euthanasia/suicide, first us kids - then them. But that they had almost no fear that the war would happen. It was much more reassuring than Philip's dismissal of Paige's fears. Hiding things like that from kids never works. It helped too when a couple of years later I saw this movie, thinking it was an ordinary cartoon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_the_Wind_Blows_%281986_film%29 It makes The Day After and even Threads seem cheery in comparison. And I think I'd have been scarred for life if that was how I learned about MAD and WW3.

Edited May 13, 2016 by AllyB

[Sienna]

In response to the idea that a honey trap shouldn't always work:

I figured they assess a potential mark, and only use that tactic on someone likely to fall for it. That's exactly why Elizabeth didn't go in trying to seduce Don, they knew he was a decent guy with a strong marriage and not all that vulnerable to a honey trap, so they focused on E making friends with his wife instead. They only set up Don as a last resort, and drugged him to do so, because they knew there was a good chance he would decline a direct sexual invitation.

[Jodithgrace]

I was born in 1950, so I lived through the worst of the Cold War, (Cuban missile crisis, anyone?) and The Day After was terrifying and hopefully gave both sides a little dose of reality, like it did in the episode. 

I was sure that I saw Elizabeth put something into Phillips hand when she returned from her "mission" with Don. I specifically read two different recaps to see a mention of it, but there was nothing, so it was probably him just taking her hand. My first thought was thumb drive, though, of course, they hadn't been invented yet. Cameras in the apartment wouldn't help her, since there was nothing for them to record except Elizabeth setting Don up, so it wouldn't have been a tiny roll of film. I guess I imagined it.

This was a sad and depressing episode. Seeing Elizabeth destroy her friendship like that was sad, as well as seeing Phillip giving in to revealing the Lassa virus to the centre. Poor Phillip's qualms never stand a chance.

It was fun seeing Paige "drive," though. It reminded me of my first driving lesson. I had been really scared of driving, having nightmares that a car would be uncontrollable. I was totally shocked that I was actually able to beat it into submission so easily. 

[Umbelina]

I'm watching The Day After now.

It actually holds up, but of course, in reality, it would be much, much worse, because it certainly doesn't seem to deal with Nuclear Winter at all.  For what it is, it's not bad, but there are good and bad things to limiting this to one area (unless they expand it later.)

[AllyB]

On a completely shallow note, I found Oleg's loud noises an odd mixture of completely off-putting and just a little bit hot. I could empathise with Tatiana trying to shut him up though, even without the fear of being overheard. And I'm assuming she thinks/knows his apartment is bugged.

[JennyMominFL]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm watching The Day After now.

It actually holds up, but of course, in reality, it would be much, much worse, because it certainly doesn't seem to deal with Nuclear Winter at all.  For what it is, it's not bad, but there are good and bad things to limiting this to one area (unless they expand it later.)

 

Threads does, if you have not seen it