S01.E13: Leviathan

[squidprincess]

7 minutes ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Ah ha ha ha, this fucking show. So they have a time machine, go all over the place, but only needed to go 3 days before the death of Rip's family? And hey writers, is Rip so dedicated that he goes against all he knows to save his family, or is he a man who gives up immediately after a defeat? Because he can't be both.

I don't really think Rip's been inconsistent.  I mean, the show exists because Rip said f-you to his old bosses and grabbed a bunch of people to help him kill Vandal Savage.  It seems like he's been pretty intent on not giving up so far.

[Cekrypton1]

16 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

I don't really think Rip's been inconsistent.  I mean, the show exists because Rip said f-you to his old bosses and grabbed a bunch of people to help him kill Vandal Savage.  It seems like he's been pretty intent on not giving up so far.

Everytime there is a setback, he's all, "Welp, that's it. Nothing more to do." The only reason he went forward in this episode is because Ray had to (re-)talk him into it again.

[jmonique]

What I also don't really appreciate is how the team was like, "Screw it. Let's go to the future."

So that means nothing between now and then changes. The virus is released. People die. Vandal rises to power. People are slaughtered. Are they stopping things from getting even WORSE? Probably. But they've done nothing but piss away every opportunity to spare everyone between 2016 and 2166 or whenever they've jumped to the pain of Vandal's rein? And now they're not even doing that because 206 lifetimes with Carter the Creeper weren't enough for Kendra?

Edited April 29, 2016 by jmonique

[Sakura12]

The Flarrowverse really loves their pep talks. The Flash gets one every week from his 500 father figures. 

Carter made Kendra weak, it took until the 1940's for him to teach her how to defend herself? I really thought that this show was going to tell us that them being together is why they always died. Kendra being away from him and with others is what would change things. But nope, it's still all about Carter and their tru wuv. 

[squidprincess]

5 minutes ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Everytime there is a setback, he's all, "Welp, that's it. Nothing more to do." The only reason he went forward in this episode is because Ray had to (re-)talk him into it again.

I think I look at it a bit differently than you do.  Rip has one clear goal: kill Vandal Savage/save his family.  He's been trying to do this since before he ever got the team involved.  He's tried a lot of different (and admittedly terrible) plans, and is fairly desperate.  They've all failed so far, so he retreats, regroups, and tries again from a different angle.  This time, probably because of the emotional stress of being that close in time to his family's death, he was giving up too quickly, and Ray snapped him out of it.  That seems pretty consistent to me.

[mrspidey]

I don't get the problem. If this whole thing was supposed to prevent the deaths of Rip's family, then they have succeeded, provided they make sure this Savage doesn't get back to the location in time they just took him from.

They don't even have to kill him. Just dump his ass on prehistoric earth and be done with it...

Oh, and Kendra? This is not your Carter! Your Carter is dead. This is nextGen Carter and somehwere there is a nextGen Kendra waiting for him to find her. He isn't meant for you.

Edited April 29, 2016 by mrspidey

[Starfish35]

13 minutes ago, jmonique said:

What I also don't really appreciate is how the team was like, "Screw it. Let's go to the future."

So that means nothing between now and then changes. The virus is released. People die. Vandal rises to power. People are slaughtered. Are they stopping things from getting even WORSE? Probably. But they've done nothing but piss away every opportunity to spare everyone between 2016 and 2166 or whenever they've jumped to the pain of Vandal's rein? And now they're not even doing that because 206 lifetimes with Carter the Creeper weren't enough for Kendra?

This bothered me too.  We've still got a few episodes left so I'm hoping they'll yet jump back and stop Savage earlier, but...yeah.  This really bothered me.

[Sakura12]

They said they can't go back to time they already visited and Rip said he's gone back multiple times to try to stop Savage and failed. If they go back they have to go without Rip and no one can fly the ship but him. Then they have Kendra who is the only one that can kill him, won't kill him. So really the rest of them can't do anything to stop Savage. 

It would've been awesome if Kendra still bashed Savage's head in even though it meant losing that new version of Carter. I would've applauded the show for doing something unexpected. That would've made Kendra a Legend. The last 3 episodes could've been them trying to take down the Time Masters or something. Or setting up Season 2. Instead they made Kendra look weak and selfish. 

[MarkHB]

12 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

They don't even have to kill him. Just dump his ass on prehistoric earth and be done with it...

I thought of that, and the fact that in a way it would bring Savage back to his comics origins as a caveman.  But with him being immortal, it raises the question of what would happen once he caught up to Ancient Egypt, since you supposedly can't be active in a time you were already active in.  I doubt he could be trusted not to look himself up and create a paradox that would destroy the world.

[lion10]

Congratulations to Kendra for the most monumental fuck up in the show so far, possibly ever.  Kendra just became my least favorite hero in the Flarrowverse.  She's got Savage, the one guy who's responsible for 90% of the bad shit in her life and the world's future and she doesn't kill him in order to save an iteration of wonderbread Carter?  What an idiot.  If I were Rip I would've shot Carter in the head and then had Kendra kill Savage.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Legends Of Tomorrow Confront A Moral Dilemma

And Kendra's the one on whom the decision rests.

[KirkB]

I guess it would be wrong for them to knock Kendra out, put the mace in her hand, and swing her arm until Savage's skull resembles pudding?

Seriously though, since Kendra is refusing to do the one damn thing she is on the ship to do, are the next three episodes left in the season just going to be everyone sitting around trying to convince her to change her mind? Because that doesn't sound like very compelling television to me. Plus, it occurs to me they might fail anyway. By waiting until the point they're at now everything but London was already conquered and under Savage's control. So for sake of argument let's say Kendra realizes her mistake and kills Savage. Will that really change anything? The population has already been devastated by the virus, and Savage's forces have control of everything but one city. With their leader gone, won't whoever is next in line, best case scenario being Cassandra but more likely one of his generals or perhaps less moral children, step in and continue ruling the world?

Edited April 29, 2016 by KirkB

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

They said they can't go back to time they already visited and Rip said he's gone back multiple times to try to stop Savage and failed. If they go back they have to go without Rip and no one can fly the ship but him. Then they have Kendra who is the only one that can kill him, won't kill him. So really the rest of them can't do anything to stop Savage. 

It would've been awesome if Kendra still bashed Savage's head in even though it meant losing that new version of Carter. I would've applauded the show for doing something unexpected. That would've made Kendra a Legend. The last 3 episodes could've been them trying to take down the Time Masters or something. Or setting up Season 2. Instead they made Kendra look weak and selfish. 

How awesome would it have been if Kendra said "Screw it. He can live without 4,000 years of memories, but it's time for you to die"? She would have warmed her way into my heart forever! But no.....

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, nksarmi said:

How awesome would it have been if Kendra said "Screw it. He can live without 4,000 years of memories, but it's time for you to die"? She would have warmed her way into my heart forever! But no.....

That would've showed if they are really meant to be, if he would still fall for her without his memories of her. 

[nksarmi]

22 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I guess it would be wrong for them to knock Kendra out, put the mace in her hand, and swing her arm until Savage's skull resembles pudding?

Seriously though, since Kendra is refusing to do the one damn thing she is on the ship to do, are the next three episodes left in the season just going to be everyone sitting around trying to convince her to change her mind? Because that doesn't sound like very compelling television to me. Plus, it occurs to me they might fail anyway. By waiting until the point they're at now everything but London was already conquered and under Savage's control. So for sake of argument let's say Kendra realizes her mistake and kills Savage. Will that really change anything? The population has already been devastated by the virus, and Savage's forces have control of everything but one city. With their leader gone, won't whoever is next in line, best case scenario being Cassandra but more likely one of his generals or perhaps less moral children, step in and continue ruling the world?

Well, I've said before that I thought this season would either end with Rip having to accept that his family would die but still stopping Savage in the future or they were going to take this journey back to 2016 and kill him there.

There show has an interesting Catch 22 on it's hands. If the team stops VS in 2016 - will he alter time so much that he never meet/married his wife? And if she never dies, would he still go back in time and assemble the team? If Rip changes the future - will he get new memories or will they just ignore this like the vast majority of time travel stories do? I mean Flash had a character still be born and affect the timeline even after his ancestor was killed so clearly the Flarrowverse doesn't care about logic....

Now of course the show can bypass all of this by having the team defeat Savage in the future but that's not a very happy ending.  And now that they've gone to the future - I can't help but wonder if we won't go back. That has to mean resolution in 2016 I think.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, this show. It does so much so well, and yet fails so much at other things. As everyone else has already said, Kendra is by far the least interesting, most pain in the ass character on this show. And I feel bad, because I've defended her! I've enjoyed some of her plots, and I even thought her and Ray were kind of cute. Now? They need to dump her ass back in her barista job, where she is possibly least likely to cause trouble. Seriously Kendra! One freaking job!  And you do not in any way deserve Ray. You want Mr. Brainwashed Personality of an Unpleasant Block of Wood? Fine. Please take him and Vandal Scene Chewer and leave the rest of the characters to actually have interesting adventures, and poor Ray will find someone who actually appreciates him. You know, I think Snart is single... 

I just...asides Kendra I love the other characters so much. Like, I just think the rest of them are interesting, sympathetic, and fun, and I love their group chemistry, and I want to see them just traveling around time helping people and having adventures. There is so much here that works, but then you get stupid stuff like "Kendra cant kill Savage and save billions of lives because of her old boyfriend who is just going to be reincarnated anyway" bullshit. The plots can be so lame, but the characters are so great. I feel like there must be a way to fix this.

[johntfs]

I don't blame Kendra for choking.  First off, Kendra is a fictional character being written by other people, so it's not like she made this decision herself. Secondly, Kendra had just received a pretty severe shock that tripped her up.  Savage has been captured, which was, after all the original plan prior to Kendra spotting the bracelet.  There's a decent chance that Kendra will complete the kill next week and the final two episode will be the team dealing with the fallout with the Time Masters.

Also for those that are going "Well, she should have just bashed his head in/shot Hitler's pregnant mom right in her baby bump," you have no emotional skin in the game.   Most people have a reluctance to kill other human beings.  That can be overcome through training or extreme duress.  Kendra probably would have killed Savage in the midst of the fight but the threat to Hawkdude shook her out of the killing mindset.  So, she's human.  And, of course, we have three more episode and there needed to be some kind of bullshit conflict to delay the end of the show.

[blackwing]

This was such a terrible episode.  I must have a huge misunderstanding of what the mission was all along.  I thought the mission was "kill Savage so he can't kill Rip's wife and child".  The opening voiceover still says this.  But in this episode we learn that no matter what the team does, Rip's wife and child will always die?  And that Rip knew this?  

So what was the whole point?  Why didn't he just say from the beginning that the mission was to save humanity from Savage and his virus?

I couldn't care less about Kendra.  Don't care about her and Ray.  Don't care about her and brainwashed Carter.  Carter already died in this lifetime, didn't he?  Why doesn't she just let him be killed and then they both reincarnate in the next lifetime?

What exactly did they do with the magical bracelet?  Did they melt it and reform it into spikes on that mace?  Since it seems like the magical properties of the bracelet are more harmful to Savage than the actual physical damage it would cause, I think it would be funnier if they had kept it as a bracelet and Kendra just pushed it on his face.

Also, if Savage knows that the bracelet can destroy him since it was around at the first death.... why didn't he destroy it somewhere along the thousands of years along the way?  Or just throw it in the sun or something?

[nksarmi]

44 minutes ago, blackwing said:

This was such a terrible episode.  I must have a huge misunderstanding of what the mission was all along.  I thought the mission was "kill Savage so he can't kill Rip's wife and child".  The opening voiceover still says this.  But in this episode we learn that no matter what the team does, Rip's wife and child will always die?  And that Rip knew this?  

So what was the whole point?  Why didn't he just say from the beginning that the mission was to save humanity from Savage and his virus?

I couldn't care less about Kendra.  Don't care about her and Ray.  Don't care about her and brainwashed Carter.  Carter already died in this lifetime, didn't he?  Why doesn't she just let him be killed and then they both reincarnate in the next lifetime?

What exactly did they do with the magical bracelet?  Did they melt it and reform it into spikes on that mace?  Since it seems like the magical properties of the bracelet are more harmful to Savage than the actual physical damage it would cause, I think it would be funnier if they had kept it as a bracelet and Kendra just pushed it on his face.

Also, if Savage knows that the bracelet can destroy him since it was around at the first death.... why didn't he destroy it somewhere along the thousands of years along the way?  Or just throw it in the sun or something?

I think Rip wants to save his family which is why killing Savage in the past was so important to him, but once the Time Masters sent the Pilgrim after the team's younger selves - stopping Savage's world conquest became his number one priority. Rip promised Stein he wouldn't sacrifice Stein's marriage just to save Rip's and I think he's come to care enough about the team not to allow any of them to be wiped from existence for his wife and son - but he still believes Savage needed to be stopped. And there doesn't seem to be anyone left in his time who can do that job so brining the team forward in time seems to be his only hope at this point.

Now Rip did happen to choose a date that if they succeeded would at least give his family some shot at survival (if they aren't killed by Savage's forces in retribution for killing Savage) - but Rip wants to save the world from Savage as much as he wants to save his own family.

Personally, I've never believed Rip was going to save his wife and son on this mission - but I do believe they will defeat Savage. What I wonder is if Rip will have to lose his wife and son or will time just be changed enough so that they live but either a) they think he's dead so he can't go back to them for some contrived reason or if b) time will change enough that his wife ends up with someone else and while he remembers her - he has to walk away and let her be happy in her alternate life.

ETA: Regarding the bracelet - Savage seems to keep relics from that time around him either because they add to his power or because after 200+ lives of killing Kendra and Carter, he just figures they'll never stop him so he'd oddly sentimental about his Kendra souvenirs.

Edited April 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[squidprincess]

55 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Also for those that are going "Well, she should have just bashed his head in/shot Hitler's pregnant mom right in her baby bump," you have no emotional skin in the game.   Most people have a reluctance to kill other human beings.  That can be overcome through training or extreme duress.  Kendra probably would have killed Savage in the midst of the fight but the threat to Hawkdude shook her out of the killing mindset.  So, she's human.  And, of course, we have three more episode and there needed to be some kind of bullshit conflict to delay the end of the show.

It's not like Kendra just let him run free.  So they could do something like take him away or imprison him.  I think that's why Rip, who looked devastated in the heat of the moment when Kendra didn't kill him, seemed much calmer afterward.

Rip's fatalism makes sense to me.  I think his motivation has always been a complicated mix of stop Savage/save his family, and the closer he got to the point in question, the more the doubts and fears and clearly unaddressed trauma started taking over again.  The Time Masters should have sent a therapist after him, not an assassin.

[Trini]

I was just glad that the team scored some 'wins' in this episode. Also, shirtless, mace-wielding Carter.

Yeah, Kendra didn't kill Savage, but we've got a few more episodes, right?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Trini

[Sakura12]

I would've been fine with Kendra not killing Savage in that moment if they didn't tell us she's supposed to be a 4000 year old Demi-Goddess. Who I would assume would be stronger than they've made her out to be. No wonder they died 200 times, both Hawks are weak and can't think beyond their stupid love life. 

I can imagine Savage using that tactic with them a couple times, they fall for it and he kills them both. Kendra has her memories or she doesn't. It can't be both. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[greekmom]

5 hours ago, mrspidey said:

I don't get the problem. If this whole thing was supposed to prevent the deaths of Rip's family, then they have succeeded, provided they make sure this Savage doesn't get back to the location in time they just took him from.

They don't even have to kill him. Just dump his ass on prehistoric earth and be done with it...

Oh, and Kendra? This is not your Carter! Your Carter is dead. This is nextGen Carter and somehwere there is a nextGen Kendra waiting for him to find her. He isn't meant for you.

Why can't they just go back before Savage was created immortal and kill him? Problem solved.

[AudienceofOne]

The next day and my overall speechlessness over how shit this episode is has expanded to "You're a time traveller, Kendra, and he reincarnates. A TIME TRAVELLER."

[johntfs]

1 minute ago, greekmom said:

Why can't they just go back before Savage was created immortal and kill him? Problem solved.

Presumably everyone except for Rip would be dead from Timebrain or something.  They further back you go the more the trip messes you over.

[MissLucas]

I do no longer try to understand the time-traveling shenanigans on this show - the timey-wimey here bends to whatever the plot is asking for. Fine by me - 12 Monkeys covers the whole 'let's time travel take serious enough to give our viewers Janeway headaches' deal.

But dammit show, you're only allowed to get away with this because you have awesome characters. Or at least you used to have. I don't care for all the talk about fate (which seems to stand in for comic canon here) - Kendra only became a halfway compelling character once she decided to make her own choice. I was looking forward to any conflicts that might cause once she'd meet with another Carter. But this was beyond stupid since there really was no conflict here - as others have pointed out. This was devastatingly bad writing.

I remember that I started to laugh when the Hawkpeople were shown for the first time on 'The Flash'. They looked ridiculous and their whole plot sounded ridiculous. I read up on the comic book background in order to understand why people were so excited about seeing them. But whatever makes them compelling in the comic universe never made it into this show. They and their whole plot remain ridiculous dragging the whole show down. (I feel bad for the actors especially Falk Hentschel - to score Hawkman with that name must have felt like winning the lottery. And then he gets Coulsoned (love that term) and stuck in a plot everybody hates.)

[statsgirl]

I really feel sorry for the actress playing Kendra. It's bad enough Kendra's been wishy-washy the last few episodes about Ray vs Carter but this is something Ciarra must know Kendra can't come back from. As a character, she's dead.

She really is the Laurel Lance of this show.

While I really enjoy this show, I am so over the Vandal Savage storyline. It was weak to start with but now it just drags and drags. Let me finish him off myself if it would help.

I'd bet whether Cassandra will be on board for next season but I never bet on a certainty.  Kind of sad though since I was shipping Sara/Cold.

[AudienceofOne]

Pinning this show on Vandal Savage was a terrible idea. Do they really think they can sustain a show long-term about killing one guy? They can barely sustain half a season. I'm already bored. Caity Lotz is the only reason I'm still watching because I've always thought her Canary was amazing (actually it's the only reason I'm watching at all because the Flash/Arrow two-parter that introduced this show was TERRIBLE).

But if you have to devote an entire television show to killing an immortal genocidal dictator through hilariously ineffective time travel... try not to make most of it about a bland woman's love life.

[Sakura12]

Vandal Savage is a one season villain. He'll be gone by end of the season. Next season is a new villains or villains. 

[slayer2]

It was so good until the end, then it was dumb. Who cares about Carter's damn mind when the entirety of earth is at stake? Don't they have Buffy the Vampire Slayer in ANY of the fucking timelines these idiots have visited? Oh and Rip, fuck your family! These people are heroes? Sure, Jan.

 

Quote

As someone mentioned already - Kendra is trully the Laurel of LoT. 

More like Felicity. Her primary job is to fuck up the show with a useless ship that does everything possible to virtually suck out the heroism of everyone in the room, all the while whining about her stupid fucking feelings.

Edited April 30, 2016 by slayer2

[AudienceofOne]

Umm... still think you're describing Laurel there...

[jmonique]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't blame Kendra for choking.  First off, Kendra is a fictional character being written by other people, so it's not like she made this decision herself. Secondly, Kendra had just received a pretty severe shock that tripped her up.  Savage has been captured, which was, after all the original plan prior to Kendra spotting the bracelet.  There's a decent chance that Kendra will complete the kill next week and the final two episode will be the team dealing with the fallout with the Time Masters.

Also for those that are going "Well, she should have just bashed his head in/shot Hitler's pregnant mom right in her baby bump," you have no emotional skin in the game.   Most people have a reluctance to kill other human beings.  That can be overcome through training or extreme duress.  Kendra probably would have killed Savage in the midst of the fight but the threat to Hawkdude shook her out of the killing mindset.  So, she's human.  And, of course, we have three more episode and there needed to be some kind of bullshit conflict to delay the end of the show.

You're right. I have no emotional skin in the game.

Because the writers knocked off Carter while he was still in Creeper Mode; Ciara's not able to transcend the role of the mopey, wishy-washy damsel; and the guy playing Vandal Savage seems less scary than the kid who wanted his $2 in "Better Off Dead." 
Kendra is no hero. She's far from a legend. Kill her off and try again, writers.

[ChelseaNH]

Quote

Her entire purpose is really about her stupid love life.

This.  What have we seen her think or say or do that isn't rooted in her relationship with a guy?  Someone give this woman an actual life.  Also, Carter would be vastly improved by the loss of his memories, and the accompanying possessiveness.

I'm worried this show is going to succumb to Sleepy Hollow syndrome, and be unable to sustain that balls-to-the-wall crazy funtimes past half a season.

[NUguy514]

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Well, I've said before that I thought this season would either end with Rip having to accept that his family would die but still stopping Savage in the future or they were going to take this journey back to 2016 and kill him there.

There show has an interesting Catch 22 on it's hands. If the team stops VS in 2016 - will he alter time so much that he never meet/married his wife? And if she never dies, would he still go back in time and assemble the team? If Rip changes the future - will he get new memories or will they just ignore this like the vast majority of time travel stories do? I mean Flash had a character still be born and affect the timeline even after his ancestor was killed so clearly the Flarrowverse doesn't care about logic....

Now of course the show can bypass all of this by having the team defeat Savage in the future but that's not a very happy ending.  And now that they've gone to the future - I can't help but wonder if we won't go back. That has to mean resolution in 2016 I think.

I was thinking this exact thing. They have to kill him as close to the 2016 timeline or basically they've told us that fighting for a better future on Flash or Arrow is a pointless and hopeless endeavor.  It's the same reason that 2046 only works as a possible future since if the show ever said it was absolutely destined to happen that kind of sucks away the point of me cheering for these characters to succeed in the present.  Knowing any heroic endeavor comes with a set expiration date kind of ruins the fun.

Only stopping Savage AFTER he's ruined the world pretty much does the same thing. 

So it makes sense that Savage in the future has to get away only for them to take the fight back to their real time lives.  That would be the big risk.  In the future even if they fail, they could go back and live in their short tem happiness.  If they bring the fight to the present 2016 time, they raise the stakes.  

I guess that makes it better that they probably won't be able to kill Vandal in the future.  The world is better off if they take him out earlier.      

[Cthulhudrew]

Just started watching this tonight, and as Rip and the gang are going after Savage I find myself thinking "Know what would really come in handy when you're trying to capture someone? Some kind of weapon that could fire a blast that could trap them in something solid that you could transport them in, you know, like maybe a freeze ray?"

Too bad Snart traded in the gun he used on the Flash for this run of the mill laser blaster he carries now instead. :p

[Cthulhudrew]

Evidently growing to giant-size makes you suddenly move in slow motion. Hmm.

Speaking of, if ever there were a place this show could have saved some money on its clearly valuable FX budget, why on Earth not just have live-action Ray in his live-action suit fight against a stuntman in a Giant Robot live-action suit, and just CG the trees and ground underneath them, rather than make two complete digital characters? Maybe then they could have had more Firestorm, or Cold Gun action, or whatever else this season.

And Rip continues to again be completely inept as a "time master." We learn he tried countless times to save his wife and kid before finally turning to the Legend crew; and he's failed time and again with them. No wonder the other "Time Masters" want him dead; lord only knows just how thoroughly he screwed up history before he brought everyone else on board. 

I can't help but wonder how much better this episode could have been if, instead of having Kendra hesitate to kill Savage because of some Deus Ex Carter B.S., they had her hesitate to kill him... because of the idea of killing another human being, period? Like, isn't that reason enough to not pull the trigger, in spite of knowing just how much of a monster someone could be, because you just aren't the sort of person who can kill casually, maybe even not under extreme duress? What a novel concept that would be, huh.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

On another note, because I'm not going to go back and rewatch this, what exactly happened to Professor Stein? He doubles over with what looks like some kind of puncture wound and something sticking out of him, and nobody seemed to address where it came from, who or what attacked him with it (did he stumble into some wreckage on the ship?). Then, in the end Rip is all "A lot happened while you were unconscious" and everything is okay. WTF?

[Helena Dax]

19 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Thinking about it, I think I'm less annoyed at Kendra than I was.  I mean, yeah, I still think not killing Vandal was kind of stupid.  But it's not like she just let him go.  They've got him locked up now, and depending on what they decide to do with him, he could be neutralized.

I mean, obviously he won't be, but the characters don't necessarily realize that.

It's not like she can't kill him later, when they've had a chance to figure out what Savage did to Carter.

Yeah, I agree. They've got him and there's always time to kill him later. And I guess his threat means that Carter will never remember his old lives: it doesn't sound too terrible, but we are our memories. We lose them, we become different people. The Carter she knew would be gone forever. I don't know, I understand why she hesitated. Which doesn't mean I like it. Since I'm pretty sure Savage will end up dead at the end of this season, I hope Kendra chooses to stay there with that Carter and leave the group. 

The secret weapon was a giant robot? Please...

I liked Savage's daughter, but she's too similar to Sara. I mean, two young white girls with blonde hair and ruthless disposition... It's like having the same character twice. So I don't think she'll become part of the group, which is a pity, because my Snart could use some sexy time. And btw, does Sara like men too? 

I just realized one of the things I dislike about Rip is the way he wears his coat. Put those damn lapels down!

Ray is a cutie, but he falls a bit on the bland side so his next love interest should be someone with more personality. Otherwise, it's like mixing water with water. Routh can hold his own in front of someone less boring than Kendra.

[Sakura12]

49 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

 And btw, does Sara like men too? 

Sara's bisexual, she dated Oliver Queen a couple times. She'll date men if she likes them. 

[johntfs]

I'm kind of torn.  I like Ciara Renee.  She seems like a really nice person and I want her to keep getting work as an actress.  Also, it seems like the people most likely to leave the show would be her, Franz and Victor Garber, so it turns into another "White people save the day" show.  One thing this show did well was show how shitty it was to be a woman or person of color in the past and I don't want to lose that.

 

That said, I don't see much of an organic role for her going forward aside from "flying person who hits people."  Have they considered that one way to stop Vandle Savage would be to kidnap him as a baby and bring him forward it in time to 2016 to be raised by the Hawks?

[nksarmi]

Well if they bring Vixen on the show - they will have another woman of color and I suspect they will use her as something other than a "love interest." I don't really want to lose Stein or Jax because I think they show great diversity AND I love how the characters work with each other and the rest of the cast.

[tarotx]

I want them to replaced Kendra with a women of color. I definitely don't want the show to be all white. It's already very white and male centric. We don't have to keep Kendra just so we aren't all white and mostly male. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by tarotx

[Helena Dax]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara's bisexual, she dated Oliver Queen a couple times. She'll date men if she likes them. 

Thanks! I've never watched Arrow so I didn't know anything about her until now.

[Delphi]

@Helena Dax I see what you mean about Kassandra looking too similar to Sara.   But I think what the casting people were going for was the blonde haired,  blue eyed perfect Hitler -youth looking girl to tie into Savage trying to take over the world, which I think worked even though I had trouble knowing who was who during their fight. 

[TwistedandBored]

I am totally over this show shitting on Kendra all the time for Ray and others. Like are you kidding me with this? Also, if they can't afford Firestorm special effects then why do they have those characters on the show?

With that said, I really love Sara, Cold, Mick, and Jax. I really hope we get to see more of these four. They make the show for me. 

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

I am totally over this show shitting on Kendra all the time for Ray and others. Like are you kidding me with this? Also, if they can't afford Firestorm special effects then why do they have those characters on the show?

With that said, I really love Sara, Cold, Mick, and Jax. I really hope we get to see more of these four. They make the show for me. 

I'm not singling you out because I've seen this comment a lot about Firestorm - but I have to admit that I don't get it. I'm ok with them having Firestorm on the show but coming up with reasons not to use them occasionally. I love the effect when they do use Firestorm and even when they don't - we get to enjoy what I think is one of the most interesting relationships in the Flarrowverse. 

And I'm not exaggerating - I've really come to love Stein and Jax. I didn't care about Robbie either way, but I love the blend of Stein and Jax. I mean, they couldn't be more different - they are the furthest apart in age, their life experiences are completely different, Jax isn't even a scientist like Robbie was (I think?). And yet they have this friendship and bond that is so special and unique. I will tolerate any lame excuse they give me for not using the Firestorm effect all the time to keep watching these two develop as characters.

[AudienceofOne]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was thinking this exact thing. They have to kill him as close to the 2016 timeline or basically they've told us that fighting for a better future on Flash or Arrow is a pointless and hopeless endeavor.  It's the same reason that 2046 only works as a possible future since if the show ever said it was absolutely destined to happen that kind of sucks away the point of me cheering for these characters to succeed in the present.  Knowing any heroic endeavor comes with a set expiration date kind of ruins the fun.   

Or here's an idea. They're time travellers. They can do both. Kill Savage now while you can and save Rip's family. And then hatch a plan to kill him in the past as well. This show keeps treating Savage like he's a time traveller as well. He isn't. Kill him in 2046 then go back and kill him in 2016 as well. Then take a break and kill him in 1452 if you want.

[TwistedandBored]

13 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I'm not singling you out because I've seen this comment a lot about Firestorm - but I have to admit that I don't get it. I'm ok with them having Firestorm on the show but coming up with reasons not to use them occasionally. I love the effect when they do use Firestorm and even when they don't - we get to enjoy what I think is one of the most interesting relationships in the Flarrowverse. 

And I'm not exaggerating - I've really come to love Stein and Jax. I didn't care about Robbie either way, but I love the blend of Stein and Jax. I mean, they couldn't be more different - they are the furthest apart in age, their life experiences are completely different, Jax isn't even a scientist like Robbie was (I think?). And yet they have this friendship and bond that is so special and unique. I will tolerate any lame excuse they give me for not using the Firestorm effect all the time to keep watching these two develop as characters.

 

To be honest, I think it is not about character development. Captain Cold, Heatwave, and Atom all use their cadges and it doesn't hinder their character development. 

Why couldn't Firestorm use his power and have a character development as well? Same goes for Kendra. It is probably because their special effects costs more. Otherwise what other reason could there be really. 

[nksarmi]

4 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

 

To be honest, I think it is not about character development. Captain Cold, Heatwave, and Atom all use their cadges and it doesn't hinder their character development. 

Why couldn't Firestorm use his power and have a character development as well? Same goes for Kendra. It is probably because their special effects costs more. Otherwise what other reason could there be really. 

No I didn't mean that. Sure they could use Firestorm's powers and have character development if the budget allowed for it. What I'm saying is that I don't care if the budget doesn't allow for it. Even if the budget restricts how many times I see Firestorm in all his glory - I still get the awesomeness of Stein and Jax. For someone who most people consider one of the weaker actors on this show - one of the most moving stories for me was Jax and his dad. And I've always loved Stein. I don't want to lose them just because the show can't afford to light up Firestorm all the time.

Then again, I also think the others - Snart, Mick, Sara, Ray, and Rip are all so much more interesting as people than whatever gadgets/skills they posses. I'm shocked that my other favorite friendship of the show is turning out to be Mick and Sara.

The only character that I think has gotten shafted in this series is Kendra/Hawkgirl. And I'm at the point where I'm ok if they need to let her go and reboot with Vixen or someone like her. There's a lot of things Hawkgirl should have been and they got it wrong. Better to let her go than try to do what they did with Laurel over on Arrow and try to cramp a round peg in a square hole. It isn't the actresses fault either so I'd rather they let her go onto something better suited for her and maybe come back for guest stints if she has the time (it's a crying shame they didn't go back to the 20s and make her a jazz singer or something like that).