S01.E12: Last Refuge

[TVHappy9463]

So this was way better, but, still don't care about Kendra or Ray. More Snart, Sarah, Jax and Martin please.  Still watching out of loyalty to the Arrow/Flash-verse and the actors than the story telling.  I hope there will be an overhaul before season 2 starts.  

[paulvdb]

Speaking of Stein's wife, I feel like I may have missed a line or something. He said Clarissa didn't remember him, and Rip said it was because his younger self had been pulled out of the timeline so he technically didn't exist. It would be fixed once he was back. Fine. So how come Anna, Jax's dad, Quentin and Lisa all knew who their fiance, son, daughter and brother were?

Stein was taken out of the timeline before he met his wife. Jax, Sara and Ray were all taken out of the timeline after they'd met their respective loved ones.

[maczero]

I reflexively try to work out the consequences of all their time travel shenanigans and it makes my head hurt.

I just love how Rip's team is just saying "Fuck It!" and shitting all over the timeline.  It reminds me of when Homer Simpson goes back in time and just goes nuts and kills everything he comes across in the Jurassic period.

 

In other news, Ray and Kendra making out just outside the door where Ray's other fiancee was at was all kinds of awkward. 

Tell me about it.  Most people would be an emotional mess if they just encountered a dead loved one.  Ray barely seems phased by it.

Speaking of fucking over the timeline, I loved how Martin was like "Let Jax meet his dad!  What could possibly go wrong?!", because, really, Martin?  Have you met yourself and this team?  Still, Jax and his dad was probably the most I liked him too.  Cool seeing Eli Goree as his dad, because I still remember him as Wells from the first season of The 100.

That was Wells?  Wow!  He went from a baby faced teen to a guy who could easily be in his early 30's in just a few years.

 

I'm going to have to watch this again because my CW was screwed up for the first 20 minutes or so and all I got was picture, but when the Pilgrim was coming after younger Sara in the police station I distinctly saw bullets bounce off her. Did they say she had armor or a force field or something? 

Bullets were definitely bouncing off of her.

 

On a related note, I definitely thought her time stopping abilities were awesome.  Honestly, she's the only villain that I could see capable of holding off the entire team.

[Sakura12]

I loved that when the Pilgrim froze them everyone was posed like action figures.

 

[catrox14]

Man, I just hate the color of Sara's outfit. It's horrible

[maczero]

I loved that when the Pilgrim froze them everyone was posed like action figures.

 

Very cool!  That shot reminds of the scene in the first Avengers film when the team comes together and the camera circles around them.  

[Sakura12]

CL was making fun of it at Wondercon, then said there might be a costume change for Sara. I'm guessing she wanted a different color as well. 

[BadArcher]

Couldn't the Pilgrim just back away out of harms way or at least duck while everything was "frozen". She could still move.

[maczero]

Couldn't the Pilgrim just back away out of harms way or at least duck while everything was "frozen". She could still move.

She could move but time freezing seems to require a lot of concentration. I assume she can't physically fight someone and freeze someone else.  It's the reason little Rip was able to shiv her.  Speaking of which, that kid's kinda sadistic.  I could've sworn he stabbed a couple of times.  

[Delphi]

Bullets were definitely bouncing off of her.

On a related note, I definitely thought her time stopping abilities were awesome. Honestly, she's the only villain that I could see capable of holding off the entire team.

They didn't mention it in the show but in the comics she's near invulnerable. She could also turn invisible, which would have come in handy here but that may have overpowered her a bit.

[Proteus]

Mick was really great this episode.

I liked the girls with baby Snart.

I'll never understand how all this time jumping doesn't mess up the timeline. Will everyone get amnesia pills? Why didn't they give one to young Stein back in episode 2?

[tarotx]

Mick was really great this episode.

I liked the girls with baby Snart.

I'll never understand how all this time jumping doesn't mess up the timeline. Will everyone get amnesia pills? Why didn't they give one to young Stein back in episode 2?

It was probably created by the writer of this episode but since Stein smoked during that 1970's time period he can just think he had tainted weed :p And Rip fixed the meeting with young Stein and his wife. 

[MissLucas]

That was oddly touching. Jax's plot looked as if the show was for the first time taking all the issues connected to time-travel seriously.

 

Pilgrim's villain coat was terrific (second episode in a row made for coat fetishists) and I loved the additional Terminator homage (after Ray's quip) with a remorseless killer from the future storming through a Police precinct looking for a Sarah to kill.

 

I'm still not sure how that orphanage works - what kids are placed there? And why exactly did they have to keep young Sarah and young Mick around. Didn't Rip say Pilgrim could not go twice after the same person? As usual the timey-wimey doesn't work but the show is so much fun it gets (barely) away with it.

 

I'm getting tired of Kendra's drama. Every time she's with someone not Carter it 'ends in tears' as opposed to being with Carter which ends... only in bloodshed? The logical conclusion is a celibate life-style. I wonder if she ever tried that.

[KirkB]

Stein was taken out of the timeline before he met his wife. Jax, Sara and Ray were all taken out of the timeline after they'd met their respective loved ones.

 

 

Thank you. I knew I must have missed something, I just couldn't figure out what.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Ray: "So how does this all work. She can travel to any place at any time. She could be killing any of us right now."
Prof. Stein: "And if we die in the past .... "
Rip: "... you die in the present."
Ray: "Wow that's so interesting. How long does it take for what happens in the past to affect the present. Can I be dead right now and not know it ? Maybe I am dead right now. Hello, can anybody hear me ?"
Snart: "No"

That made me laugh. That one word from Snart made the scene.

 

ETA:  Who knew that the WaveRider was not only stocked with a good supply of vintage cereals, but also a pharmacy chock full of forget-me-nows (TM Arrested Development).

Edited April 23, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[KirkB]

I'm still struggling with the whole The Pilgrim's bulletproof but not knifeproof thing.

 

I did like the way she was able to freeze all of them at once, though she still had a problem. To do it she apparently had to keep turning and concentrating. If young Rip hadn't taken matters into his own hands what was her plan? I suppose she could have jumped out of the way and let all their blasts and attacks hit the area she was in, but she still would have had to deal with all of them simply attacking her again. Since they were able to kill her in the end she clearly isn't completely invulnerable, so their numbers should have won out.

Edited April 23, 2016 by KirkB

[Delphi]

I'm going with the theory that the invulnerability isn't a passive ability but something she has to be actively channeling when she anticipates being attacked. So because she knew she'd be shot at she could deflect the bullets yet had no idea that young Michael would be trying to stab her so it left her open for an attack.

[Sakura12]

I went with the deflecting bullets being her time manipulation powers where she made a kind of force field, not that her suit was bulletproof. Or maybe since Michael was being trained as a Time Master he knew that those suits have weaknesses in the leg area. 

[themadman]

I just can't understand how Captain Cold and Heatwave can fire their guns at people without them burning up or getting frozen. Somebody? Anybody?

[Latverian Diplomat]

No, their younger selves are hanging with the Time Mother but their loved ones are on the ship.  Slightly younger Ray is in the med bay I think. 

 

They could have been clearer about what the exact deal with younger Ray was. I guess they blew the split screen budget (or whatever) on Caity Lotz? Not that I'm complaining about that choice.

[lion10]

I loved that when the Pilgrim froze them everyone was posed like action figures.

 

 

This all very cool, but I'm pretty sure this shot just ate the show's budget.

[Tim Thomason]

Speaking of Stein's wife, I feel like I may have missed a line or something. He said Clarissa didn't remember him, and Rip said it was because his younger self had been pulled out of the timeline so he technically didn't exist. It would be fixed once he was back. Fine. So how come Anna, Jax's dad, Quentin and Lisa all knew who their fiance, son, daughter and brother were?

 

Clarissa mentioned that Martin "looked familiar," so it seems her brain was reconfiguring itself at that moment to compensate with being from a universe in which she never met him (because he had been kidnapped as an infant in 1950). Sort of like Martin's wedding ring in the pilot, I guess.

 

We don't see Anna's reaction or Lisa at all, so we can't really judge there. 2014 Ray was beaten up at a point when he had already begun developing the ATOM suit and months after Anna's death, so Anna would have (presumably) no memory loss from Ray, who is probably her fiance at whatever time she was abducted. Lisa is younger than Cold, so her very existence is at threat due to his disappearance from the timeline as an infant in 1972. I imagine she should know her brother still, but might be fading in-and-out of the timeline a la Marty McFly. Actually, all of the Time Nursery characters (infants Stein, Jax, and Cold; teenage Sara and Mick) should be suffering from that fate. Maybe during the next "final" battle with Savage.

 

Of course, Quentin knew his daughter. Even if his brain was remolding itself to a reality in which she had been abducted in 2007 (another Lance tragedy), he would know her and be proud that she was on a spaceship or whatever.

[KirkB]

I just can't understand how Captain Cold and Heatwave can fire their guns at people without them burning up or getting frozen. Somebody? Anybody?

 

 

Most of the time they aren't actually trying to hit them. They're usually firing at the people to make them move back or away from the team. That said, some are getting frozen or burned, the CW just doesn't want you to see charred human bodies and the less you think about what happens to people who get frozen solid the better. So you just have to imagine some of the people they left behind died in agony instead.  :)

[paigow]

The actress who played the Pilgrim, Faye Kingslee, is a dead ringer for Kristen Stewart...,

Where is Malcolm Merlyn and his magic Dustbuster? He can reconstitute the Pilgrim....

[lion10]

Most of the time they aren't actually trying to hit them. They're usually firing at the people to make them move back or away from the team. That said, some are getting frozen or burned, the CW just doesn't want you to see charred human bodies and the less you think about what happens to people who get frozen solid the better. So you just have to imagine some of the people they left behind died in agony instead. :)

But then they broadcast shows like "The 100" and "Vampire Diaries".

[nksarmi]

I was on the road so I saw this episode late, but I truly loved it.  I'd watch this one again and again.  I am amazed at how much I've come to like Heatwave. I once thought he'd be one of the first off the show and now I wouldn't want to let him go for anything. 

 

Also, loving the backstory on Jax.  Great episode for him. Him struggling and finally deciding to risk it and tell his dad to be careful - really great story telling. I don't know how it will turn out - his dad could still die in war - but even if he does, what a wonderful moment for him knowing his dad saw him as a baby and that he didn't miss the chance to do what he could.

 

As much as I understand why everyone wants less Ray/Kendra - I thought they had a chance to give Ray some cool insight into what Kendra was going through with Carter by showing us interact with his dead fiancé. I would have liked to see him struggle a little bit with wanting to warn her/save her life but feeling like the desire to do that was a betrayal to Kendra. I think that could have been interesting but I can't think of anything I would have traded to get that moment so I guess it's all fine how it worked out.

 

Other things I loved: seeing younger Quentin, Sara telling young Mick that he's not young Sara's type, Kendra and Sara cooing over baby Snart, Sara and Kendra training (would love to see more sparring between different pairs), Mick and his younger self, current Mick and Sara, and over course young Rip (how awesome is that kid!).

 

Also, I think Stein dealing with his wife not knowing him might be a setup to why he might want to not go on he season two adventure.  But if that's the case, I hope they find a way to bring him back for at least a couple of episodes - I really will miss Stein and Jax if they aren't on the show next season.

[spaulding]

I loved the episode. CR had some really bad acting when Ray was injured and I'm sick of her and Ray.

 

Her acting in the MedBay was terrible.  What's happening to Ray?  Ahhh, even Helen Keller could see that the Pilgrim was trying to erase him. 

 

I already miss Older Kendra. 

 

And stop dragging Sara into Kendra's relationship mess. 

 

It's really amazing how they've fleshed out Mick. He was the one character who I thought really didn't need to be here when the cast was first announced.

 

I love Mick, and I'm actively rooting for him.  His self-hate is palpable even if he tries to brush it aside.  I love that he was trying to get his younger self to accept forgiveness.  And maybe his older self too.

 

I don't think that he gets enough credit for how perceptive he is.   He's the type who people underestimate.

 

I also love his relationship with Sara.  She makes everything better. 

 

I wasn't moved by Rip's backstory, but I liked his naughty younger self.  Let him lead the mission. 

 

Does everybody get amnesia pills?  Errr, does Jax's dad get one?  His story the saddest one.

 

I like the Pilgrim, but I wish she was a Big Bad.  Nobody that the Time Council sends is a formidable.  Finally, some time manipulation on a show about time travel.  It would be cool if the DVD/blu ray included trading cards of the characters frozen in time. 

 

Baby Cold.  I hope that Sara and Kendra remind Cold how cute he is as a baby.  He'll never get over it. 

 

Teen Sara at the police station seemed like a throwback to Terminator.  Adult Sara saving Teen Sara was awesome.  I think she used the wall to propel herself at the Pilgrim. 

[jhlipton]

eeing Sara and Kendra cooing over BabySnart (he was a cute baby).

 

Kendra, yes, but I wish they hadn't gone with "all wimminz loves babbies". for Sara.  Yuck.

 

I could've sworn he stabbed a couple of times.

 

At least twice but the first wasn't shown as obviously as the second.

 

ETA to add that Ciara Renée is a crappy actress and I wish they would replace her with a better, darker woman.

E [again] TA:

Pilgrim didn't seem to want witnesses, so minimized the number of time-natives who noticed her.

She didn't seem to care how many people saw her at Lance's police station!

Edited April 24, 2016 by jhlipton

[Sakura12]

I didn't have a problem with Sara cooing over baby Snart. Yes, she's a hard worn assassin but it's not like she's been an assassin for 20 years. It's only been 7 if we count her two more years with the League. So I could see the less hard Sara still being in there. Now if it led to Sara talking about wanting a baby I would take an issue with that. Thinking a baby is cute, I can see Sara thinking that. 

 

Teen Sara at the police station seemed like a throwback to Terminator.  Adult Sara saving Teen Sara was awesome.  I think she used the wall to propel herself at the Pilgrim.

 

I wonder if they'll let Caity do this or if she still can. 

 

 

Just because it looks cool. 

[jhlipton]

I didn't have a problem with Sara cooing over baby Snart. Yes, she's a hard worn assassin but it's not like she's been an assassin for 20 years. It's only been 7 if we count her two more years with the League. So I could see the less hard Sara still being in there. Now if it led to Sara talking about wanting a baby I would take an issue with that. Thinking a baby is cute, I can see Sara thinking that.

 

I guess.  It would just be nice to have a woman who's not an "ice queen" not think babies are cute. Just for a change.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previousy.TV post on the episode!

 

The Pilgrim's Lack Of Progress Against The Legends of Tomorrow
Another time-traveling assassin comes after the team, with unsurprising results.

[Sakura12]

I don't see a problem with people thinking babies are cute. Even those who don't want kids can think babies are cute. Plus they said Sara baby sat as teen, you don't do that unless you like being around kids. That doesn't mean she wants kids. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Sakura12

[paigow]

I don't see a problem with people thinking babies are cute. Even those who don't want kids can think babies are cute....

Also knowing the baby will grow up to look like Michael Scofield, one would confidently say "cute baby"

[FurryFury]

I have mixed feelings about it. I don't consider babies especially cute, most of them time (I do find kittens and puppies cute though, oh so much), and there was nothing about Sara previously that would hint at her liking babies... but then, there's nothing against it, either. You can be non-stereotypically feminine in some areas but still like (or even want) children, and vice versa. So while my gut reaction was surprise, I've thought about i for a second, shrugged and continued watching.

[Sakura12]

I was fine with it because it didn't lead to Sara talking about wanting kids. Which is something I don't think Sara thinks about. You can like babies and still not want your own. Plus we've seen that past Sara was kind of girly even though she was a delinquent. That girl seems to come out the more she hangs around her team. 

 

If Arrow had let Sara know that Diggle named his daughter after her we might have been able to get more insight into what Sara thinks about that. 

[FurryFury]

Oh yeah, still not over that. A huge missed opportunity.

[nksarmi]

I really kind of thought it was more about "Awe wasn't Snart such a cute baby" rather than cooing over any old run of the mill baby. I'm almost certain this will come up again in the form of flirting between the two of them. :)

[Sakura12]

It's more upsetting that they wasted all of Sara's screentime on whatsherface that they planned on killing off anyway. Sara didn't get to talk to anyone else besides Thea for 2 seconds, which would've been another interesting conversation to see more of. "Sorry I tried to kill you" and "Sorry, I did kill you". 

 

Naming your child after someone is a BFD. That is probably the biggest indicator that they never planned on bringing Sara back.

[nksarmi]

It's more upsetting that they wasted all of Sara's screentime on whatsherface that they planned on killing off anyway. Sara didn't get to talk to anyone else besides Thea for 2 seconds, which would've been another interesting conversation to see more of. "Sorry I tried to kill you" and "Sorry, I did kill you". 

 

Naming your child after someone is a BFD. That is probably the biggest indicator that they never planned on bringing Sara back.

 

The lack of Thea and Sara interaction really perturbed me on Arrow. I felt like the show owed us a great scene/dialogue between them.  But I'm almost at the point of giving up on Arrow doing real character development. I honestly feel like Legends and Supergirl both do character moments - for their entire cast - much better than Flash and Arrow. So I guess in hindsight I'm not surprised we didn't get that moment, but it would have been nice.

[slayer2]

I feel like the writing on this show is getting worse. I like the actors, and they do their best with the lackluster characters (except Sara who seems to be the only fully fleshed out one) but the writing just sucks. What's worse is I'm sitting here waiting for the other shoe to drop when Sara finds out about Laurel. Fuck you Guggenheim for doing this to me. You've managed to ruin two shows for the price of one. Fuck you forever.

Lol, after what they pulled on The Flash this week, I found the time travel on this episode very straight forward.

 

Heheheheheheh! Thank you! I needed the laugh. The Flash Versus Zoom was probably the dumbest hour of television I have ever seen in my life. Amazing. At least this episode of LoT wasn't that, how good of you to remind me.

 

 

If Arrow had let Sara know that Diggle named his daughter after her we might have been able to get more insight into what Sara thinks about that.

 

 

Are the Diggles going to rename the baby Laurel? Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping track of all the dead Canaries.

Edited April 26, 2016 by slayer2

[Cekrypton1]

Chiming in late to say, Caity was so relaxed and charming in the first half of this episode, I feel like maybe she and or the writers finally have a handle on her character.

[henripootel]

Quote

The Continued Adventures of the Worst. Time Travelers. EVER.

Pretty sure that's gonna be their 'legend': the Legend of the Worst Time Travelers.  EVER.  I mean Rip never said it they'd end up being a good legend, right? 

They seemed to abandon all sense for this episode, but I'm not gonna lie, Jax talking to his dad was ... affecting.  How about this: Fuck what time wants.

[ACW]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:48 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Mick/Sara is fast becoming my favourite friendship on the show. They're just both complicated people and they seem to understand each other.

He's a complicated man... and no-one understands him but his woman...

[dmmetler]

I would love to see more of the TimeMum and her group of little roughnecks. I have a feeling YoungMick is probably the least problematic...

[Sakura12]

This episode showed how much better it was without Savage. I loved all the heart to heart moments we had with the team and their younger selves or loved one. 

This was back when they remembered Sara had a father. Seeing Teen Sara with bangs and Quentin with hair was great. I liked that Sara didn't try to change her life, what happened to her made her who she is now. That's one constant thing about her. She'd rather live in a nightmare that's real over a dream that's a lie. 

Older wiser Mick telling his younger self that it wasn't his fault was touching. He's grown so much on this show and I love it. Jax's story was sad too. This was some of the best work from FD and made me start to love Jax. 

I don't know why they thought it was a good idea to make Kendra's whole story about her love life. Because of that she was never allowed to grow has a character, she was always tied to a guy whether it was Carter, Ray or Savage. While CR wasn't the strongest actor she was also stuck in such a boring storyline that I don't think any actress could've made any better. Even if she had chemistry with any of them. The storyline was repetitive and pointless. 

[Starfish35]

“Come with us if you want to live”.   Doesn’t Ray say something similar in “Zari”?

Of all places she could chosen, why did the Pilgrim choose to go after young!Sara in the middle of a crowded police station?  Still, I do like the scene with older!Sara and Mick protecting young!Sara.....”quite the badass” indeed.

“Next time, hit with a flat palm”.  Sara just can’t resist giving her younger self self-defense tips.  I have to give Caity Lotz props - she does a great job differentiating the acting between the older and younger versions of herself.

“Let’s call it....paradox prevention.”  Rip is never funnier than when he’s getting sudden flashes of the catastrophes the Legends could create.

 I’d forgotten a lot of this, but this turned out to be one of the better episodes of this season, I think.  Getting some backstory on Rip, meeting Jax’s dad, Mick forgiving his younger self, Sara getting a great moment with her dad.....(I’ll never not be bitter about the writers’ disregard of that relationship in future seasons).  

The one major downside is more of Ray and Kendra’s back and forth relationship.  Seriously getting old.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by Starfish35