S02.E09: Nailed

[RCharter]

The fact that Jimmy was there at the time that Chuck alleged the document altering took place, along with Jimmy buying the exacto knife and having access to the documents and motive would be a decent circumstantial case against Jimmy. Probably not enough to convict him, but possibly enough to get him disbarred and probably enough to get Mesa Verde to dump Kim.

I don't think this would really be any sort of case for disbarment or anything else.  Having an exacto knife, and going to a copy place with some documents doesn't sound anywhere near what you would need to disbar someone.   I truly think that Chuck was grasping at straws, and no matter how many people he went to with that story, the response would always be the same "you were typing those documents, and its far, far, far more likely that you simply transposed some numbers than your brother is part of some conspiracy theory."  I don't even think its enough for a preponderance of the evidence standard, because a mis-typing the number is far, far more likely.  Its possible that Chuck would have tried to find the originals in a trash somewhere, but I can't possibly see how.

 

And no matter what, Mesa Verde isn't going back to HHM.  Just goes to show how deep Chuck's resentment runs.

[Bannon]

I don't know, I got the feeling that losing Mesa Verde didn't mean as much to Howard as it did to Chuck.  And Chuck only cared that much because of Jimmy.  I know its an UO, but Howard interests me.  He is such a slick looking suit of a guy, but he does seem to have his moments where he seems genuine.  He really seemed to try to talk Chuck down after the banking meeting....and while he may have wanted to do it alone just so that he could keep Chuck away from the business, he may have also offered to do it alone because Chuck was really sick after having to deal with light and stuff last time.  The conversation he had with Kim when she left seemed genuine and he forgave her school debt (which, frankly, may be a write off of some sort for HHM).

 

So, I think if Howard is fine with Kim leaving.....and even fine with her having Mesa Verde (he didn't have the same drive to get it back that Chuck did) I don't see why he would beg for her back.  She seems like a great attorney, but I imagine HHM is full of really great attorneys.

I think Howard's come to appreciate how much HHM was dependent on Chuck's legal brilliance, and Chuck's death, if it comes to that, in the wake of the news of what looks from the outside like Chuck really screwing a client via mishandling simple stuff, is going to be hugely damaging to HHM's reputation, and reputation is EVERYTHING to a large law firm. Howard would be desperate to retain Mesa Verde, as a means to signal other big clients that HHM was still soundly managed.

I don't know, I got the feeling that losing Mesa Verde didn't mean as much to Howard as it did to Chuck.  And Chuck only cared that much because of Jimmy.  I know its an UO, but Howard interests me.  He is such a slick looking suit of a guy, but he does seem to have his moments where he seems genuine.  He really seemed to try to talk Chuck down after the banking meeting....and while he may have wanted to do it alone just so that he could keep Chuck away from the business, he may have also offered to do it alone because Chuck was really sick after having to deal with light and stuff last time.  The conversation he had with Kim when she left seemed genuine and he forgave her school debt (which, frankly, may be a write off of some sort for HHM).

 

So, I think if Howard is fine with Kim leaving.....and even fine with her having Mesa Verde (he didn't have the same drive to get it back that Chuck did) I don't see why he would beg for her back.  She seems like a great attorney, but I imagine HHM is full of really great attorneys.

I think Howard's come to appreciate how much HHM was dependent on Chuck's legal brilliance, and Chuck's death, if it comes to that, in the wake of the news of what looks from the outside like Chuck really screwing a client via mishandling simple stuff, is going to be hugely damaging to HHM's reputation, and reputation is EVERYTHING to a large law firm. Howard would be desperate to retain Mesa Verde, as a means to signal other big clients that HHM was still soundly managed.

[RCharter]

The fact that Jimmy also asked for an exacto knife and glue stick is highly suggestive of document doctoring. It may not be enough for a jury in a criminal trial, but in a tort action, or a Bar Association setting? It may well be enough, and certainly enough for the Mesa Verde CEO to get away from all these idiots, maybe up to and including firing poor Paige.

Or....he wanted to make a banner.....or he wanted to fake a resume.....or he just wanted an exacto knife and a glue stick.  Even if he was "document doctoring" there is nothing to show what document he was doctoring, other than Chuck's saying he did so.  There is no way to show that the documents were ever even in Jimmy's possession really....other than Chuck saying that he took them.  A man whose entire attitude appears to be that he never makes a mistake, and is always blaming Jimmy for something is suddenly blaming him for a typing error he made.  Chuck would be foolish to even open up that can of worms with the Bar Association, because if they are investigating the matter, there would certainly be some questions about an attorneys duty to safeguard client information.  And exactly what did Chuck do to safeguard client files other than to keep them in a house with no electricity, and a very simple front door lock?  Chuck never moved the files into a locked closet, or even into a locked file cabinet.  

I think Howard's come to appreciate how much HHM was dependent on Chuck's legal brilliance, and Chuck's death, if it comes to that, in the wake of the news of what looks from the outside like Chuck really screwing a client via mishandling simple stuff, is going to be hugely damaging to HHM's reputation, and reputation is EVERYTHING to a large law firm. Howard would be desperate to retain Mesa Verde, as a means to signal other big clients that HHM was still soundly managed.

But HHM really didn't depend on Chuck's legal brilliance.  HHM has been around for years while Chuck was at home reading the newspaper by candlelight.  Chuck's death, in light of the screw up at HHM may just make HHM look stronger because they clearly lost an attorney whose best years had passed and was becoming a liability.  I don't know if it will be HHM's reputation, everyone, from Kim, to the regulator, to Howard seemed to think it was a simple transpositional error.  While it would suck, especially for a senior partner that can't blame anyone else, it would look like it was solely Chuck's error and probably not have that negative an impact on HHM.  

[benteen]

 

At the same time, since he is such an asshole, I loved watching everything blow up and his face, and how his hubris and arrogance almost played just as big of a role.  I mean, he was basically telling his clients; the guys who own the fucking bank; that they were the ones wrong and "mudding the waters."  Fucking hell! How arrogant can one person be to realize that is the worst thing you can do?!  Chuck really doesn't think his shit stinks, and he paid for it big time, and, assuming he survives, will probably be thinking about this humiliation for a long time.

 

Totally.  Chuck is absolutely awful with people.  Ernesto can testify to that too.

 

I've mentioned this before but Chuck acts like Frank Grimes from The Simpsons.

 

I will say Michael McKean's face when Chuck has his electromagnetic fits never fails to crack me up.

 

Anyone notice that Jimmy and Kim in bed together looked exactly like Chuck and Rebecca in bed together?  The same lighting and everything.  I thought that was an interesting comparison.

 

Jimmy's white knighting of Kim is leading to a LOT of his current problems.  Whoever pointed that out is absolutely right.

 

Mike and Nacho do indeed play off of each other well.

Edited April 12, 2016 by benteen

[RCharter]

Totally.  Chuck is absolutely awful with people.  Ernesto can testify to that too.

 

I've mentioned this before but Chuck acts like Frank Grimes from The Simpsons.

 

I will say Michael McKean's face when Chuck has his electromagnetic fits never fails to crack me up.

 

Anyone notice that Jimmy and Kim in bed together looked exactly like Chuck and Rebecca in bed together?  The same lighting and everything.  I thought that was an interesting comparison.

 

 

 

 

You know what amused me though, is that Kim/Jimmy in bed, sort of looked like Rebecca/Chuck in bed.  

 

Just to prove that I thought that too!!!

[peeayebee]

Wow. What an ep. 

 

Loved seeing Mike execute his plan. It was beautiful how his spike strip seemed to magically appear to the driver. 

 

It was interesting seeing the rare glimpse of Mike's lighter side.  He was positively giddy (for him) buying drinks and semi-flirting with the waitress.

Thanks for putting that together for me. Although I enjoyed the scene with the waitress, I didn't quite see the point of it. I had also initially thought that Mike was buying drinks for the bar in order to get Hector's attention that Mike had his money. So it makes more sense that we were just seeing Mike enjoying his triumph... only to get slapped upside the head when he learns he caused an innocent man -- a Good Samaritan -- to be killed. I'm not so sure this will lead Mike to get vengence against Hector for this. He might just simmer in his guilty feelings for a while.

 

I also loved how Jimmy's plan played out in court. I wonder how much Jimmy planned for Chuck to help hang himself by unleashing his hubris onto his clients. His refusal to accept that he was to blame for the 1261/16 error was terrific to watch. Of course Chuck was completely right. That's the beauty of it.

 

Chuck is truly brilliant. What a mind to be able to figure out what happened, which he could only do because he KNEW he didn't make the mistake. I did not expect Kim's reaction, but that was fantastic. She just turned on her attorney mind and defended Jimmy. Her smack-down of Chuck was so satisfying. 

 

And, yes, Kim will be feeling guilt, too. Not only did she indirectly send Jimmy to the copy center, resulting in Chuck's head injury, but she probably knew that Chuck was right, yet she chose to defend Jimmy instead of allowing that Chuck could be right. She could have ended it right then. So she's culpable as well.

 

Lingo, thanks for that Yahoo article. The explanation of how the stunt was executed was really fascinating. 

 

I don't know if anything significant will happen with Ernie. He was a good employee as he helped Chuck from day one, but I think he can't really like Chuck as a person. He does seem to really like Jimmy. So if it comes down to supporting one or the other, I think he'll go with Jimmy. I may be surprised.

 

BTW, the first several posts in this thread were obviously done while the ep was playing instead of afterwards. Is that permitted? They were annoying as hell to read.

[shapeshifter]

The innocent Good Samaritan getting killed seems like a callback to Drew Sharp during the train robbery in "Dead Freight".

I keep forgetting to mention: During the opening credits they always show a spider that might be Drew's pet spider from BrBa.

So I'm assuming Chuck had Ernie going to every copy shop in the area, to establish which one Jimmy used, and then he'd bring Chuck in to handle things. But I find it pretty coincidental that Jimmy just happened to show up at the one he used when Ernesto was still in there.

Probably Chuck had Ernesto go during the time of day and day of the week Jimmy would have been copying, and then they returned together at the same time. Still--the guy could've called in sick that day. But Ernesto had probably verified who was working at that time and when that person would be there again.

If Jimmy had thought more about covering his tracks in the beginning, he would've worn a false beard, penciled dark brows, and black wig or something. But he probably didn't think about Chuck using Ernesto to run that errand.

Edited April 12, 2016 by shapeshifter

[nodorothyparker]

I kind of love that the show has managed to pull off the neat trick of confirming that Chuck really does know Jimmy that well and certainly well enough that we can assume that all the things he's accused him of are probably more or less true and still let him come off like a crazy ranting douche who deserves what happens to him.  Arguing with a client in court that they don't know their own address rather than acknowledge he might be wrong, really?  It then furthers that trick by making us want to feel bad for Jimmy and hope he doesn't get caught when we absolutely know that Jimmy did exactly what Chuck is accusing him of in exactly the manner in which he's accusing him.  Even when we know that Jimmy does in fact deserve whatever comes next.  Nicely done.

 

I won't lie that I've had mixed feelings about Rhea Seehorn's Kim throughout the series.  In the first season I often found her delivery very flat and didn't quite understand what her appeal to Jimmy was except maybe out of habit from days past.  But she's grown on me a lot this season and she positively blew the doors off the confrontation in Chuck's house.  Her entire posture in her initial quiet nonreaction showed that she knew perfectly well that what Chuck was saying was true but that she was also seeing maybe for the first time the full unfiltered brunt of the crazy and resentment that Jimmy's been up against his whole life.  Throwing in high school forgery of fake IDs, really Chuck?  And sure, she knows Jimmy well enough to know the truth of it but she absolutely was not going to give Chuck the satisfaction.  "You made him who he is."  Yes and no, and she knows that too.  

 

Loved her pounding on him in the car and the later understated reminding him that he needed to be extra super thorough in cleaning up his mess without even looking up from her reading.  I don't know what decision she's heading toward where Jimmy's concerned but she's entangled enough before the office paint is even dry that she's going to have to step very carefully.  And she's smart enough to know that too.

 

I don't know if Chuck will end up dying from this, something Jimmy bears at least a good portion of responsible for setting in motion, but even if he doesn't his prospects don't look good personally or professionally.  So another switch in the making of Saul Goodman flips.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Or....he wanted to make a banner.....or he wanted to fake a resume.....or he just wanted an exacto knife and a glue stick.  Even if he was "document doctoring" there is nothing to show what document he was doctoring, other than Chuck's saying he did so.  There is no way to show that the documents were ever even in Jimmy's possession really....other than Chuck saying that he took them.  A man whose entire attitude appears to be that he never makes a mistake, and is always blaming Jimmy for something is suddenly blaming him for a typing error he made.  Chuck would be foolish to even open up that can of worms with the Bar Association, because if they are investigating the matter, there would certainly be some questions about an attorneys duty to safeguard client information.  And exactly what did Chuck do to safeguard client files other than to keep them in a house with no electricity, and a very simple front door lock?  Chuck never moved the files into a locked closet, or even into a locked file cabinet.

 

Jimmy's fingerprints would be all over the files and file boxes.  Chuck may never go any further in that direction, though, if he has a serious head injury. 

[Bannon]

Or....he wanted to make a banner.....or he wanted to fake a resume.....or he just wanted an exacto knife and a glue stick. Even if he was "document doctoring" there is nothing to show what document he was doctoring, other than Chuck's saying he did so. There is no way to show that the documents were ever even in Jimmy's possession really....other than Chuck saying that he took them. A man whose entire attitude appears to be that he never makes a mistake, and is always blaming Jimmy for something is suddenly blaming him for a typing error he made. Chuck would be foolish to even open up that can of worms with the Bar Association, because if they are investigating the matter, there would certainly be some questions about an attorneys duty to safeguard client information. And exactly what did Chuck do to safeguard client files other than to keep them in a house with no electricity, and a very simple front door lock? Chuck never moved the files into a locked closet, or even into a locked file cabinet.

But HHM really didn't depend on Chuck's legal brilliance. HHM has been around for years while Chuck was at home reading the newspaper by candlelight. Chuck's death, in light of the screw up at HHM may just make HHM look stronger because they clearly lost an attorney whose best years had passed and was becoming a liability. I don't know if it will be HHM's reputation, everyone, from Kim, to the regulator, to Howard seemed to think it was a simple transpositional error. While it would suck, especially for a senior partner that can't blame anyone else, it would look like it was solely Chuck's error and probably not have that negative an impact on HHM.

Jimmy was doctoring the documents in the print shop, right in front of the print shop employee, if I remember correctly. "I was making a banner" isn't going to fly, if the print shop cooperates during a deposition. Also, Chuck complaining isn't the only way depositions end up being taken. Mesa Verde is likely suing. Edited April 12, 2016 by Bannon

[RCharter]

Jimmy was doctoring the documents in the print shop, right in front of the print shop employee, if I remember correctly. "I was making a banner" isn't going to fly, if the print shop cooperates during a deposition.

He was doing it in the middle of the store while Lance was behind the counter.  So yeah, I was making a fake resume, I was making a joke lunch menu, I was messing with a coupon I had that expired 2 weeks ago, and I really wanted that 20% off at YogurLand, I was flipping the numbers on a receipt for a product so I could get a refund, but I couldn't get it right so I just threw it away.  Or......I was making a funny ransom note, made a few copies, thought it was dumb and left.  

 

And am I really expecting some guy behind the counter to pay attention to what a dude is doing in the middle of the store?  At best, he just saw him cutting stuff with an exacto knife, bending over a document and making copies.

Edited April 12, 2016 by RCharter

[benteen]

Jimmy definitely "exposed himself" when he was making those copies for hours and hours at the print shop.

 

 

Throwing in high school forgery of fake IDs, really Chuck?

 

Yeah, Chuck was treating that like Jimmy was dealing drugs in high school.

[RCharter]

Jimmy definitely "exposed himself" when he was making those copies for hours and hours at the print shop.

 

 

Yeah, Chuck was treating that like Jimmy was dealing drugs in high school.

But really, exposed himself to what?  

 

Lance couldn't see what he was doing in the copy shop, or what documents Jimmy had.  All he knew was that Jimmy was there, maybe for how long, and that he wanted an exacto knife and a glue stick.  That might be a good case for Jimmy doing something at a copy shop at an off hour, but that sounds more like the grounds for reasonable suspicion to believe that he was up to something that involved document doctoring, but I think it would be a pretty big leap for someone to go from "in a copy shop late at night with an exacto knife and a glue stick" to "doctored specific legal documents, even though he really didn't have much knowledge about the case, and there is no other evidence that the original documents are missing, or that Jimmy was ever in possession of the documents."

 

And then what, Chuck....brings him before the Bar Association?  That's an uncomfortable situation, because exactly why were the files in your house where someone could take them and alter them in the first place?  You have a duty to safeguard information?  Chuck as an attorney, and HHM as a law firm have a duty to safeguard client data.

 

Or, they sue Jimmy for a civil action, and then HHM opens itself up for a suit by Mesa Verde for negligence in protecting its information?

[RustbeltWriter]

What I love about this show is that it makes the viewers complicit with Jimmy's shenanigans. We all know what kind of guy he is and we can no more quit him than Kim can. Chuck has been correct in his assessment of Jimmy all season, from soliciting Sandpiper clients to the stunt he pulled with the bank address and yet, we are all rooting for Jimmy. We eat it up when Kim lands on Chuck with both feet and stomps him with the knowledge that he is a bad brother when in reality, he's not. He bailed Jimmy out and got him a job at his firm. He invited him to his wedding and had him over for dinner. These aren't the acts of a bad person. Yet, when Jimmy tries to improve himself and Chuck sees the danger coming, we all see Chuck as the bad guy even though we know he is right.

 

Just like Kim, we are all in a weird, dysfunctional relationship with Jimmy, and it is awesome.

Edited April 12, 2016 by RustbeltWriter

[ghoulina]

Well I was talking about her thinking Chuck made a simple mistake. I almost bought that she believed that. I DO believe the rest.

 

The thing is, Chuck was just too sure that he didn't make a mistake. No one is infallible. True, he didn't make a mistake this time. But Kim had a good point - he's always working by lamplight, and he hasn't been functioning well lately. It sucks to be accused of something you didn't do. But I really hated the haughty way he spoke to the Mesa Verde lady, insisting that it couldn't possibly be HIM that made the mistake. That's why I loved Kim taking it to him, even though it became clear later she knew Chuck had not made a mistake. 

[Bannon]

But really, exposed himself to what?  

 

Lance couldn't see what he was doing in the copy shop, or what documents Jimmy had.  All he knew was that Jimmy was there, maybe for how long, and that he wanted an exacto knife and a glue stick.  That might be a good case for Jimmy doing something at a copy shop at an off hour, but that sounds more like the grounds for reasonable suspicion to believe that he was up to something that involved document doctoring, but I think it would be a pretty big leap for someone to go from "in a copy shop late at night with an exacto knife and a glue stick" to "doctored specific legal documents, even though he really didn't have much knowledge about the case, and there is no other evidence that the original documents are missing, or that Jimmy was ever in possession of the documents."

 

And then what, Chuck....brings him before the Bar Association?  That's an uncomfortable situation, because exactly why were the files in your house where someone could take them and alter them in the first place?  You have a duty to safeguard information?  Chuck as an attorney, and HHM as a law firm have a duty to safeguard client data.

 

Or, they sue Jimmy for a civil action, and then HHM opens itself up for a suit by Mesa Verde for negligence in protecting its information?

We aren't going to agree. Jimmy was there for hours in the middle of the night, in an empty print shop. I don't think it is unlikely that Lance will be able to say, if he cooperated, that it was some kind of document being altered, and the standard here is not beyond a reasonable doubt, and Chuck complaining isn't the only way this results in depositions being taken.

[Bannon]

What I love about this show is that it makes the viewers complicit with Jimmy's shenanigans. We all know what kind of guy he is and we can no more quit him than Kim can. Chuck has been correct in his assessment of Jimmy all season, from soliciting Sandpiper clients to the stunt he pulled with the bank address and yet, we are all rooting for Jimmy. We eat it up when Kim lands on Chuck with both feet perperand stomps him with the knowledge that he is a bad brother when in reality, he's not. He bailed Jimmy out and got him a job at his firm. He invited him to his wedding and had him over for dinner. These aren't the acts of a bad person. Yet, when Jimmy tries to improve himself and Chuck sees the danger coming, we all see Chuck as the bad guy even though we know he is right.

Just like Kim, we are all in a weird, dysfunctional relationship with Jimmy, and it is awesome.

I

Chuck's a bad brother for letting the younger brother who idolizes him think it was Howard who was completely unwilling to let to work with Jimmy as an attorney, when in reality it was Chuck all along. Lying to your little brother, so he'll continue to wait on you hand and foot, as you refuse to seek treatment for your mental illness, makes you a bad brother.

[Rickster]

Could Mike's flashing of money at the bar lead Tuco back to him?

[Irlandesa]

We aren't going to agree. Jimmy was there for hours in the middle of the night, in an empty print shop. I don't think it is unlikely that Lance will be able to say, if he cooperated, that it was some kind of document being altered, and the standard here is not beyond a reasonable doubt, and Chuck complaining isn't the only way this results in depositions being taken.

Plus, I would think the bribe would not look good either.

[ghoulina]

Anyone notice that Jimmy and Kim in bed together looked exactly like Chuck and Rebecca in bed together?  The same lighting and everything.  I thought that was an interesting comparison.

 

Yup. Most women want someone they can have a good time with, but also someone they can trust and count on. Chuck is certainly dependable, but I don't think Rebecca was having much fun. Jimmy is a whole ball of fun, but also unpredictable. Two brothers, opposite ends of the spectrum. 

 

And then what, Chuck....brings him before the Bar Association?  That's an uncomfortable situation, because exactly why were the files in your house where someone could take them and alter them in the first place?  You have a duty to safeguard information?  Chuck as an attorney, and HHM as a law firm have a duty to safeguard client data.

 

Yea, I am no legal expert, but I'd think that bringing files home like that might be a no-no. At any rate, am I the only one who didn't necessarily think Chuck was doing all this to get Jimmy in legal trouble? I think Chuck's biggest issue has always been people directly in their lives who always believe Jimmy over him, who LIKE Jimmy, despite his warnings. Their Dad, Rebecca, Kim. I think he wanted to prove it to Kim. So finally, FINALLY, someone would believe him about Jimmy. 

[Milburn Stone]

I won't lie that I've had mixed feelings about Rhea Seehorn's Kim throughout the series.  In the first season I often found her delivery very flat and didn't quite understand what her appeal to Jimmy was except maybe out of habit from days past.  But she's grown on me a lot this season and she positively blew the doors off the confrontation in Chuck's house.  Her entire posture in her initial quiet nonreaction showed that she knew perfectly well that what Chuck was saying was true but that she was also seeing maybe for the first time the full unfiltered brunt of the crazy and resentment that Jimmy's been up against his whole life...

 

I've liked her from the beginning--never seen an actress who was anything like her, really, and she riveted my attention with her "low affect" from first I saw her--but I agree that Mike wasn't the only one who nailed something in this episode.

[Bannon]

But HHM really didn't depend on Chuck's legal brilliance.  HHM has been around for years while Chuck was at home reading the newspaper by candlelight.  Chuck's death, in light of the screw up at HHM may just make HHM look stronger because they clearly lost an attorney whose best years had passed and was becoming a liability.  I don't know if it will be HHM's reputation, everyone, from Kim, to the regulator, to Howard seemed to think it was a simple transpositional error.  While it would suck, especially for a senior partner that can't blame anyone else, it would look like it was solely Chuck's error and probably not have that negative an impact on HHM.

Howard told Chuck he didn't have the regulatory/legal acumen to win Mesa Verde back, and we have seen already that Howard is a horrible manager of employees. He's pretty much a useless figurehead, who arrived at his position because his daddy wanted him to be there.

[Milburn Stone]

We aren't going to agree. Jimmy was there for hours in the middle of the night, in an empty print shop. I don't think it is unlikely that Lance will be able to say, if he cooperated, that it was some kind of document being altered, and the standard here is not beyond a reasonable doubt, and Chuck complaining isn't the only way this results in depositions being taken.

 

I appreciate your voice of reason and expertise. There's jeopardy for Jimmy--as well as Kim--here. Which is why she dropped a major hint to him in bed, while being very careful not to say too much--even in bed.

[nodorothyparker]

Yea, I am no legal expert, but I'd think that bringing files home like that might be a no-no. At any rate, am I the only one who didn't necessarily think Chuck was doing all this to get Jimmy in legal trouble? I think Chuck's biggest issue has always been people directly in their lives who always believe Jimmy over him, who LIKE Jimmy, despite his warnings. Their Dad, Rebecca, Kim. I think he wanted to prove it to Kim. So finally, FINALLY, someone would believe him about Jimmy. 

 

I thought this too.  My sense is that any legal trouble for Jimmy would be an entirely secondary sort of victory for Chuck.  If he can nail down evidence of Jimmy's copy shop shenanigans he finally has concrete irrefutable proof that "See, I was right.  Jimmy did too do this" to rub in everyone's faces after a lifetime of everyone important to him liking and believing Jimmy despite anything he might tell them otherwise.

 

Assuming Chuck survives, he may have bigger concerns now like trying to prove his own competency.  The doctor all the way back in season 1 thought he should be committed, and the Schweikart attorneys in the Sandpiper case indicated that Chuck's issues aren't exactly a well kept secret.  And that was before he belligerently argued with his own client in court about their own address and basically short circuited and injured himself in front of witnesses in a copy place.  What happens to Chuck's rather substantial stake in HHM if he ends up deemed incompetent and committed?

[Bannon]

I appreciate your voice of reason and expertise. There's jeopardy for Jimmy--as well as Kim--here. Which is why she dropped a major hint to him in bed, while being very careful not to say too much--even in bed.

People often don't appreciate that once a process starts where people give depositions (and there are many ways such a process might start here),  things can begin to snowball. This has the potential for catastrophe, for Jimmy, KIm, Chuck, and Howard, and even all of HHM's employees, and even HHM's clients (having your legal work being done by a firm with a mentally ill partner, with the other partner allowing him to continue to have a management role, produces all kinds of potential exposure. Yikes). HHM's continued existence might be threatened.

[Bannon]

I thought this too.  My sense is that any legal trouble for Jimmy would be an entirely secondary sort of victory for Chuck.  If he can nail down evidence of Jimmy's copy shop shenanigans he finally has concrete irrefutable proof that "See, I was right.  Jimmy did too do this" to rub in everyone's faces after a lifetime of everyone important to him liking and believing Jimmy despite anything he might tell them otherwise.

 

Assuming Chuck survives, he may have bigger concerns now like trying to prove his own competency.  The doctor all the way back in season 1 thought he should be committed, and the Schweikart attorneys in the Sandpiper case indicated that Chuck's issues aren't exactly a well kept secret.  And that was before he belligerently argued with his own client in court about their own address and basically short circuited and injured himself in front of witnesses in a copy place.  What happens to Chuck's rather substantial stake in HHM if he ends up deemed incompetent and committed?

The value of a stake in HHM might be about to suffer a steep decline. The writers have a done a great job of producing all kinds of plausible and interesting potential outcomes.

[RedBaron]

I think there is zero chance of Lance cooperating with anything after taking money from Jimmy and witnessing the craziness of Chuck.  Even if anyone is able to drag him into a deposition (which is unlikely) I'm sure he will not remember Jimmy doing anything.

 

Mesa Verde may have a claim against HMM but Chuck really has no claim against Jimmy.  If Lance has no memory of Jimmy, Chuck has absolutely no evidence against Jimmy and sounds more irrational every time he tries to tell people that it's impossible for him to make a mistake.

 

As for Jimmy's fingerprints being on the box and paperwork, the files are now in Kim's possession and he helped her move them.  He also shares office space with her so even checking for fingerprints would be meaningless.  

 

I found it ironic that Chuck had the gall to complain about his brother sabotaging him after all he has done to Jimmy at HMM and the charade he went through of pretending he was on Jimmy's side and pretending Howard was the bad guy when he was actually the one holding him back.    Chuck's outrage that his own brother could do that him just fell flat in light of his own actions.

[Chaos Theory]

Whatever you might think of Chuck,Michael McKean plays him flawlessly. I am consistently amazed at both the acting of everyone involved and the camerawork.

I whooped out loud a bit when Kim stood up for Jimmy but when they got into the car I realized she knew that Chuck was telling the truth. I am not sure what this means for her but it is interesting and rather Skyler White of her. And by the way that is a compliment. I am one of the people who loved Skyler especially towards the end when she really broke bad,

Edited April 12, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[nodorothyparker]

The value of a stake in HHM might be about to suffer a steep decline.

 

That's a very real possibility too depending on how public this all becomes.  I've never considered until now in thinking about all the ways Saul Goodman may finally come about that it might be because the personal grudge match between the brothers McGill imploded what I think we're supposed to believe is one of the bigger law firms in the area and took a whole lot of people down with it. 

[Blackie]

Maybe Chuck couldn't get enough proof to get Jimmy in legal trouble or trouble with the bar, but definately it would be enough proof to get Kim to leave Jimmy.  I think Chuck would be satisfied by that.  Jimmy is not lazy and has been meticulous in all his schemes, down to matching hair dye with Howard, so I don't believe he wouldn't have paid off the copy centre guy from the start.  I found that all a bit contrived to get Jimmy to arrive at the copy centre to see Chuck have his melt down. 

[Ohwell]

I don't care, I whooped for joy when Chuck banged his fucking head.  If he lives, I hope he spends the rest of his life in a mental hospital, and I hope they bring him the wrong apples every day.  Maybe those hard, juiceless, delicious apples.

 

I liked Kim for the first time ever last night, but I won't mind if she breaks up with Jimmy because I don't want to see her next season. 

 

Mike and the waitress.  I'm down with that.

 

I hope we haven't seen the last of Ernesto and Omar.

[ghoulina]

I whooped out loud a bit when Kim stood up for Jimmy but when they got into the car I realized she knew that Chuck was telling the truth. I am not sure what this means for her but it is interesting and rather Skyler White of her. And by the way that is a compliment. I am one of the people who loved Skyler especially towards the end when she really broak bad,

 

I imagine Kim is feeling very conflicted right now. She is thrilled to have Mesa Verde back. But she's not thrilled about the way she got it. Forget that they were basically her client in the first place, and she might feel it was shitty of Chuck to take them back like he did - I think what she really doesn't like is Jimmy always trying to come to her rescue. When she was stuck in doc review, he was lobbying grand schemes to get her out and she wasn't having it. It's not necessarily about "right" and "wrong", but about HER being able to take care of herself.

I don't care, I whooped for joy when Chuck banged his fucking head.  If he lives, I hope he spends the rest of his life in a mental hospital, and I hope they bring him the wrong apples every day.  Maybe those hard, juiceless, delicious apples.

 

I didn't whoop for joy because I know this will effect Jimmy. As much as his brother has hurt him, I know he loves him and wouldn't want him dead. But I am laughing so hard about your apple comments. Tell the facility to stock nothing but Red Delicious. He hates those!

[ShadowFacts]

 

Yea, I am no legal expert, but I'd think that bringing files home like that might be a no-no. At any rate, am I the only one who didn't necessarily think Chuck was doing all this to get Jimmy in legal trouble? I think Chuck's biggest issue has always been people directly in their lives who always believe Jimmy over him, who LIKE Jimmy, despite his warnings. Their Dad, Rebecca, Kim. I think he wanted to prove it to Kim. So finally, FINALLY, someone would believe him about Jimmy.

 

Yes, and I think in this instance, it is very important to him that he not be seen as incompetent or less than careful.  He's always been stellar, apparently, and prides himself in being detail-oriented and precise.  He wants to be vindicated of making a mistake, which we know he did not make. 

 

I think the consequences could be heavy on HHM, whether it is in the nature of a malpractice suit, or reputational damage.  This is all on Jimmy.  It's kind of the brilliance of this story arc.  He is basically likeable but skirts the law, and Chuck is mostly unlikeable but law-abiding.  But now Jimmy has caused harm to Mesa Verde, and Kim would be a fool to trust him not to do that again, so I see the end in sight for their relationship.  Chuck is now injured for real, and HHM is on shaky ground.  I don't see Jimmy as the victor here even if he totally gets away with the document tampering. 

 

 

As for Jimmy's fingerprints being on the box and paperwork, the files are now in Kim's possession and he helped her move them.  He also shares office space with her so even checking for fingerprints would be meaningless.

Boxes, yes, files, not so meaningless.  He would have no business being in those confidential files of another attorney. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by ShadowFacts

[Bannon]

That's a very real possibility too depending on how public this all becomes.  I've never considered until now in thinking about all the ways Saul Goodman may finally come about that it might be because the personal grudge match between the brothers McGill imploded what I think we're supposed to believe is one of the bigger law firms in the area and took a whole lot of people down with it. 

Can't you just see the ironic court hearing now, when Jimmy McGill is asked why he wants to change his name, and Jimmy replies, "Well, my mentally ill brother ruined the business value of the name "McGill", in running a law office, so I sadly am compelled to make this request."

[henripootel]

People often don't appreciate that once a process starts where people give depositions (and there are many ways such a process might start here),  things can begin to snowball.

I could see a big mess starting to snowball, but not for Jimmy.  Chuck has no evidence that any documents were ever doctored in the first place.  Anything Chuck might find can be explained away innocently.  If he finds an actual document with transposed numbers, it's a clerical error by someone, who knows who.  Jimmy's finger prints on the filed documents?  They were kept in a place Jimmy goes, and who's to say Jimmy didn't help re-file some stuff when Chuck had one of his many fits.  Even if it comes out that Jimmy bribed a copy guy, 'My brother was making some crazy accusations and I had been making some copies, so I figured if the copy guy said he didn't remember me, Chuck would go home sooner and not crack his head on something'.  

 

I don't know the standards of evidence for such matters but it seems to me that Chuck has absolutely no cards here.  And any attempt to officially implicate Jimmy in anything would blow up in his own face.  I'm kinda wondering why Chuck was pursuing this matter at all, but I can't believe it was with further legal action in mind.  Maybe it was to convince Kim to run and hide, but if so, pretty sure he'd sewn the seeds of doubt already.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Thought it was a good detail that Hector was shown having a hissy fit and then threw back some pills, probably for high blood pressure. Great foundation for when he ultimately has his stroke and ends up in the chair with the bell.

[ShadowFacts]

I got to wondering how the truck tires could be roadworthy after being stuffed with drugs and/or cash?  How would that be accomplished - anyone know?  How would drugs in tires not be sniffable by dogs? 

[Bannon]

I think there is zero chance of Lance cooperating with anything after taking money from Jimmy and witnessing the craziness of Chuck.  Even if anyone is able to drag him into a deposition (which is unlikely) I'm sure he will not remember Jimmy doing anything.

 

Mesa Verde may have a claim against HMM but Chuck really has no claim against Jimmy.  If Lance has no memory of Jimmy, Chuck has absolutely no evidence against Jimmy and sounds more irrational every time he tries to tell people that it's impossible for him to make a mistake.

 

As for Jimmy's fingerprints being on the box and paperwork, the files are now in Kim's possession and he helped her move them.  He also shares office space with her so even checking for fingerprints would be meaningless.  

 

I found it ironic that Chuck had the gall to complain about his brother sabotaging him after all he has done to Jimmy at HMM and the charade he went through of pretending he was on Jimmy's side and pretending Howard was the bad guy when he was actually the one holding him back.    Chuck's outrage that his own brother could do that him just fell flat in light of his own actions.

Oh, I agree. Without Lance's cooperation, it would be almost impossible for Jimmy to be implicated. Yes, it is possible his fingerprints could be on the original Mesa Verde documents, but without the cooperation of Lance, it is hard to get to the point where a fingerprint examination takes place.

 

Jimmy is usually very meticulous, but I thought this caper was very impulsive, so I didn't have an issue with Jimmy not bribing Lance for silence when he first went into the shop to commit forgery.

[Deanie87]

God, this show is so damn good!  And I swear, I want a happy ending for Jimmy/Saul just as much as I ever wanted one for Jesse.  I really hope that the series eventually goes beyond the "present" day at Cinnabon.

 

The scene with Jimmy, Chuck, and Kim was simply masterful, writing, acting, and direction. I know some people are bored with Chuck, but not me, because you can't really understand Jimmy without Chuck, and McKean has been so damned good. His use of facial expression, not saying a word,
when Kim finally let him have it with both barrels, was off the charts. Great, great, stuff.

 

Totally agree!  The relationship between Jimmy and Chuck is really the whole basis of this series and it is actually my favorite part of the show, along with the relationship between Jimmy and Kim.  I just love how real Kim is.  On the one hand, she totally knows what Jimmy is and that will eventually destroy their relationship. On the other hand, she isn't SO full of moral outrage that she isn't sometimes willing to reap the rewards that Jimmy's schemes bring, even if she would never stoop to that level. When I was a teenager, my cousin often shoplifted lipstick and I would never, EVER join her or even go into the store with her when I knew she was going to attempt it.  However, I did once mention that my favorite lipstick was L'Oreal's MICA (shut up it was the 80s!), and you better believe that I had that lipstick in my Jordache pockets every day once she "retreived" it for me.  Of course, I acted shocked and disappointed, but hey, frosted purple lipstick is frosted purple lipstick.  I AM KIM!

 

I also love how well these characters know one another.  Not only does Chuck know that Jimmy did all of this for Kim, but Kim knows it too and also knows every bitter detail in the ongoing Jimmy/Chuck saga.  Likewise, Nacho knows just what button to push (the murder of the good samaritan) to wipe the smugness off of Mike's face.  

 

I think its too soon to lose Chuck.  We still need to find out what happened with his wife and how he came down with this "illness."  Honestly, I think that I will be disappointed if they rush the emergence of Saul.  I am very, very happy to spend another couple of season with Jimmy and his pals.

[Dev F]

I got to wondering how the truck tires could be roadworthy after being stuffed with drugs and/or cash?  How would that be accomplished - anyone know?  How would drugs in tires not be sniffable by dogs? 

 

I don't think there were any drugs in the tires. The truck was the cartel's vector for smuggling cash out of the United States, not their method of smuggling drugs in. That's what Mike must've deduced when he heard them changing the tires in the Salamancas' garage last week.

[SailorGirl]

Wasn't there supposed to be an episode this season that was going to make us feel for Chuck and better sympathize with where he is coming from? Was this it? Because the only "feels" I had for Chuck were delight as he realized that his craziness is finally starting to catch up with him and people aren't going to continue to accept his eccentricities because he's such a legal genius. Even though he knows how Jimmy operates, Jimmy is "normal" and charming and Chuck is a whack-a-doo and people (I don't include Kim in this) tend to believe the "normal" people over the whack-a-doos. . . 

 

Kim was pretty awesome in this episode -- "I don't want to talk about it now . . . or ever" . . .(but even though I defended you to Chuck we both know you did it and you'd better make damn sure that you didn't leave any loose strings for Chuck to find because you know he will and then you and I are done). 
 

If Chuck is in a coma, as far as I'm concerned, he can stay there. Jimmy's guilt will be tough to watch, but I'm glad we got another step in his progression toward full Goodman -- he is finally starting to get a backbone with Chuck. Yes, he feels guilty about the set-up, but at least he is, in his way, finally standing up to Chuck, and that is not a bad thing. Its a transition and a mind-shift for him, so the guilt is natural. As he gets more comfortable with having a backbone toward Chuck, the guilt will (hopefully) lessen.
 
This season has gone by way too quickly  -- I don't want to wait 10 months for next season! 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by SailorGirl

[Ohwell]

Tell the facility to stock nothing but Red Delicious. He hates those!

 

That's probably what the facilities have.  I think the Red Delicious are some of the cheapest--if not the cheapest--variety of apples.  For sure, he's not getting any honeycrisps though, lol.

 

I'm getting tired of Jimmy trying to "save" Kim.   She's been shown to be a smart, competent lawyer (even though her voice grates, but I digress), so I can understand why she'd be reluctant to get into any kind of professional relationship or partnership with him, knowing that his default position is to try a stunt.  It's one thing if he does these things for himself, ala Slippin' Jimmy, or if Kim had asked him to, but it's another thing if he does this stuff without the other person's knowledge or consent.* 

 

*Although I do wonder.  By now Kim knows that Jimmy likes to pull stunts.  So, what if she told him about losing Mesa Verde, hoping (knowing?) he'd try to do something about it?  I do detect a bit of passive-aggressiveness in her, so I wonder about that.

[Bannon]

It would be consistent with the themes of this show if Mike tries to spare the truck driver from execution (and Tio does have to execute him; the truck driver has no real value to the cartel, and he is the most likely source of how how the ripoff was executed, from the cartel's point of view), and, in doing, so further gets ensnared in the drug trade.

[Sentient Meat]

I don't see how Chuck can't be dead or severely impaired.  We already have seen his Tommy Lee Jones pursuing Harrison Ford like tenacity in solving Jimmy's ruse and that deus ex machina was the only thing that could have saved Jimmy's bar credentials.  I realize under normal conditions, this investigation would have gone nowhere and would be very difficult to prove, but we are talking about an extraordinary attorney with the time and financial resources to see this to its conclusion.  Had he not been in his psychosomatically agitated state, he would have been more able to gently coax the truth out of Lance and I doubt that 600 dollars... I'm guessing those bills were hundreds... would ultimately compel him to keep his mouth shut.  Even if Chuck's warped code wouldn't allow him to bribe Lance with more money, just the consistent barrage of questions and harassment would break him down and I doubt Lance would get a restraining order because he clearly didn't want to be involved with the police even though he did threaten to call them towards the end.  Nope... if Chuck wakes up normal... Jimmy goes down but yet that can't happen because he's still practicing law in New Mexico.

[ShadowFacts]

I have a scenario for how Chuck wakes up normal after a near-death experience and JImmy does not go down, which I took to the Speculation thread. 

[tiredofwork]

It surprised me that the copy center guy didn't try to get money out of Chuck

 

 

He probably did not because Chuck came across as a patronizing, superior acting, pompous asshole.

 

As to the show, nobody knows how many seasons they expect to get out of this, I would say 5 or 6.  So coming up on that arbitrary guideline, I would like to see the 3rd season start moving away from the HHM, Kim, Chuck stuff having now clearly established the "F"d up background of Jimmy before Saul.

 

I would like to see season 3 start to move more deliberately toward the Breaking Bad Saul and away from all the heartbreak and mistreatment he has lived through in these past 2 seasons as Jimmy.

Edited April 12, 2016 by tiredofwork

[benteen]

I'd like to get at least a full season of Jimmy as Saul before this show goes off the air.  It's pretty clear by the time we meet him in BB that Jimmy has been working under the Saul Goodman name for a while.  We didn't just meet him at Saul Goodman: Day 2.

[Primetimer]

We get a new perspective on what kind of lawyer she wants to be, but then, apparently so does she.

Read the story

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Anything Chuck might find can be explained away innocently.  If he finds an actual document with transposed numbers, it's a clerical error by someone, who knows who.

It's unlikely Jimmy missed putting back an original, but what did he do with the forgeries after swapping them back? Or the paste-ups? For every altered page Jimmy gave to Chuck, there was the paste-up that got photocopied to produced the forgery. We also don't know what he did with the copies from which he cut out the numbers to glue to the other copies. Even if he burned it all, there might be a partially-intact piece left. Or, did he leave a paste-up in the copy machine in a rush to get back? Or throw away a page without thinking after clearing a jam? Chuck is obsessed enough that he'd personally go dumpster-diving if he didn't have someone to do it for him. Just saying, if the writers want Chuck to find evidence, there are possibilities.

[Bannon]

We get a new perspective on what kind of lawyer she wants to be, but then, apparently so does she.

http://previously.tv/better-call-saul/better-call-saul-makes-kim-choose-a-side/"> Read the story

Minor point. The original video tape of Jimmy in the print shop has been erased, as Lance explained. These were the days before video data being stored automatically for long periods of time. Jimmy wanted the tape that was being created right then, when the bribe was paid, to be erased. I suppose it is possible that there wasn't time to complete the task before Chuck arrived, which could be the way Jimmy remains in peril.