S06.E15: East

[Pete Martell]

Carol knew they would go after her because she asked them not to in her letter. So she already knew that if she left, they would come after and she still left.

 

I took that as making sure they wouldn't, more than actually thinking they would. 

[peach]

Yeah the bad guys are smarter watching Alexandria; too bad they never make it back to tell the tale. CDB may be impulsive and not always the wisest but they are the ones still living.

 

You'd think at this point, with dozens of their people dead, they would leave a wide berth around Alexandria. 

[RedheadZombie]

Is the huge Negan buildup because of the character's infamy, or the anticipation of JDM?  I thought the former, but I'm beginning to think it's the latter.  I know I'm certainly anticipating seeing the actor again.

 

I almost laughed at Michonne's pissed off expression while she was tied up.  She was like - it's like that one-eyed bastard all over again.  Hope Glenn isn't this season's Hershel.

 

Also, Carol righteously takes down that group all by herself, but then doesn't make sure they're all dead? Okay, sure.  Not to mention she clearly is fine killing others to defend herself. She's not willing to just give up and die. So why couldn't she do it IN the group? I don't have any problem buying that she's going through some kind of crisis. But this just doesn't feel authentic or consistent.

 

I'm going to have to watch again, but I thought Carol reacted to the fact that they were heading for Alexandria, and they were going to use her to hurt CDB.  At that point she knew she would have to kill them to save the others. 

 

I keep reminding myself that none of the captured people know that Carol is even missing. And seriously, Daryl? Never mind the fact you didn't hear people sneaking up behind you...Glenn was practically strangling himself on his gag and shaking his head NO at you. *sighs*

 

That really bothered me.  Daryl has been with Glenn since the beginning, and they've been through horrible things together.  No way was Glenn acting like that unless Daryl/Rosita were in danger, and Daryl should have known better.  Rosita probably should have known, too.

 

I can't find if this has been mentioned before but since Maggie is not full term, I'm guessing she's about 4 months along? If everyone alive has the zombie virus (dormant until death), and Maggie suffers a miscarriage, wouldn't the dead fetus/baby turn into a zombie inside of her? I would think that would have crossed someone's mind???? So if she's having pains right now, she may miscarry. If she does, and I truly hope she doesn't, and does not spontaneously abort then logic follows that she will have a zombie in her belly that needs removing.

 

Lori was concerned in season two that the fetus could die and then hurt her, but she was much farther along than Maggie.  Even if Maggie is sixteen weeks, the fetus would be less than a pound, and have no teeth or nails.  It's a disgusting thought, but I don't think she's in any more danger than a typical woman who lost a sixteen week fetus and had no medical care.  Her bruising was more to her kidney area, and I wonder if it's a fake out.  Actually, a kidney injury would be potentially more dangerous than a miscarriage.

[shanndee]

I...haven't got much too say about this one. 

 

I do love that Johnny Cash continues his role as the official voice of the Apocalypse. Any Apocalypse. The Voice of Doom indeed!

 

I liked the look of Carol driving the Mad Max car, and the Mad Max type close up of her tortured blue eyes.

 

Other than that...I've got nothing. 

[peach]

Morgan isn't wise, and whatever "wisdom" he has is the result of a past full of fuckups; I think he acknowledges that. His stance has always been not "Do what I say because I'm wiser and better than you" but "Do what I say so that you don't suffer the way I suffered, because I've been there and it sucks." Also, I like that he isn't Rick's meek lackey, and that he has his own philosophy and agenda that he stubbornly maintains. It saves him from being a Magical Black Negro stereotype who exists only to enlighten and serve the white hero.

 

Yep, Morgan stubbornly maintains his own agenda, while eating the food and living in the shelter provided by and because of the stone cold killers he continually judges.  In the car he was trying to get into Rick's head the same way he did with Carol.  They can't afford guilt trip breakdowns with a clear and present danger surrounding them. He can go maintain his agenda at Hilltop.

[Enero]

I think the only reason why Rick hasn't blown Morgan away is because it is Morgan. The man who saved him, showed him the basic essentials to surviving the ZA, then sent him on his way. If it weren't for Morgan, Rick might not be here today. I think Rick also has a soft spot for Morgan because he knows what Morgan has been through and has been there himself. He knows his past struggles. He's seen Morgan probably at his most BSC. Despite their differences there is a bond there that Rick respects.

I'm baffled not only by Dwight and his crew easily sneaking up on Michonne and Glenn, but how they managed to miss Darryl and Rosita. Michonne/Glenn/Darryl/Rosita had only spilt up seconds before. Also does Dwight and his crew live in the woods and just wait for their next victims to pass through the area so they can capture and/or kill them?

Maggie seemed rather melancholy and resigned to a sad fate before she started having pains. I wonder if she's sensing that her family, specifically Glenn are in serious trouble and may not come back.

I can understand Rick's confidence. He's had a LOT of wins over the last few months. He and his crew have taken out some pretty despicable and violent groups. But his whole spill about "the world is ours" is giving me flashes of Nino Brown. His confidence err arrogance will unfortunately come back to severely bite him on the ass.

[peach]

Even in this episode, Morgan stated that he wasn't right, that there is no right in this situation. The only thing there is, is what your soul can handle before it changes you into a monster.

 

Well, it was more like. "I'm not right, there is no right, BUT....you're wrong."

[Dodginblue]

You'd think at this point, with dozens of their people dead, they would leave a wide berth around Alexandria. 

 

I have the feeling that the Saviors group is really huge, it would almost have to be.  And the fact that they keep coming after the ASZers I think just fits with the kind of group this is, they're marauders, the ZA version of pirates, who create nothing of their own, just go out and pillage and take from others.   What I find interesting about them is how chatty they are.  They sure do talk a lot.   I guess that's their way of ratcheting up the menace.  Not that it worked with Carol, who they were so quick to believe was what she was portraying herself to be.  You'd think they would have been suspicious of that, and maybe they were, just not fast eough.

[peach]

 Not that it worked with Carol, who they were so quick to believe was what she was portraying herself to be.  You'd think they would have been suspicious of that, and maybe they were, just not fast eough.

 

Suspicious for sure.  After this time, they should get that if you catch someone out on the road from Alexandria, you should probably just shoot them on sight.

[Artsda]

Everyone running out of Alexandria was just stupid. 

[Dodginblue]

I can understand Rick's confidence. He's had a LOT of wins over the last few months. He and his crew have taken out some pretty despicable and violent groups. But his whole spill about "the world is ours" is giving me flashes of Nino Brown. His confidence err arrogance will unfortunately come back to severely bite him on the ass.

 

I agree with this and every time he starts with the whole "we've got the world on a string" it just seems phony to me. He was never that deluded before.  While I can see having some confidence because they've gone through so much, they've also lost a lot at a pretty terrible price.     I assume the writers have had him spout these lines over the last few episodes to build up how terrible and unexpected the Negan encounter is supposed to be. 

[SimoneS]

About Maggie's baby dying and zombifying inside her: Didn't Lori ask Hershel about that very possibility?

 

Yep, Lori mentioned it to Hershel as a possibility at the prison when she was scared and estranged from Rick. I think that this is unlikely to happen to Maggie since she is not that far along in her pregnancy, but they do need to get her to a doctor.

Edited March 29, 2016 by SimoneS

[peach]

As he was sermonizing about what a lovely thing he did by saving the Wolf, and the Wolf saving Denise I was yelling, "But Denise wouldn't ahve NEEDED SAVING if not for your stupid ass."  I thought Rick was going to kill him in that scene after hearing Morgan was responsible for a Wolf running loose in their fold. My hopes were dashed.

 

He also left out that he knocked out Carol when she tried to kill the Wolf, while said Wolf was openly threatening to kill Rick's children. 

[Lamima]

And I just grossed myself out with the thought of "maybe the fetus already died and is trying to get out".

And that right there would be a need to get to that Hilltop OB doctor quick.

[peach]

There was so much to hate in this episode that I forgot what I liked.  The intimate Richonne scene was everythang!   On the spoiler page we were talking about them being Adam and Eve, eating that apple.  Makes me now think that "East" refers to East of Eden.  Where generally bad things happen.

[AngelaHunter]

He also left out that he knocked out Carol when she tried to kill the Wolf,

 

He also left out that he let the Wolf go a second time during the raid on Alexandria, and allowed him to arm himself on the way out.  I guess he figured he better not tell Rick everything, just in case he hit "straw that broke the camel's back" level. He's kind of a parasite, just taking and never giving back to his host.

[SimoneS]

When Rick was at the Hilltop, his body language after talking to Michonne indicated that he was worried and not as confident as he sounded. So I am taking his confidence as him trying not to hide his doubts. Although, he probably is more confident in the Alexandrians ability to fight now. Besides, Rick and his people are not going to lose to Negan in the long run, even if they do suffer losses in the short term so he isn't completely wrong to be confident. He will just have to live with the pain of who they lose along the way.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[Lamima]

I have the feeling that the Saviors group is really huge, it would almost have to be.  And the fact that they keep coming after the ASZers I think just fits with the kind of group this is, they're marauders, the ZA version of pirates, who create nothing of their own, just go out and pillage and take from others.   What I find interesting about them is how chatty they are.  They sure do talk a lot.   I guess that's their way of ratcheting up the menace.  Not that it worked with Carol, who they were so quick to believe was what she was portraying herself to be.  You'd think they would have been suspicious of that, and maybe they were, just not fast eough.

I look at them as mafia. Didn't Hilltop say they offer protection for the stuff they take from them?

[peach]

Maybe if we keep chanting that, it will be made so.

 

So let it be written, so let it be done.

 

 

Geting dumped by someone who IS "all that" would be bad enough but imagine how galling it would be to be dumped by HIM? Oh, the humiliation.

 

Seriously.  It's the fucking principle of the thing!

[Eyes High]

Yep, Morgan stubbornly maintains his own agenda, while eating the food and living in the shelter provided by and because of the stone cold killers he continually judges.  In the car he was trying to get into Rick's head the same way he did with Carol.  They can't afford guilt trip breakdowns with a clear and present danger surrounding them. He can go maintain his agenda at Hilltop.

 

Rick's previous half measure with Carol saved Rick and everyone else at Terminus, something Morgan astutely pointed out. Had it not been for Rick taking a Morgan-style approach at that time, as opposed to Carol's full measure to terminate Lizzie when she showed herself to be a threat to Judith, Rick, Carl, and everyone else captured at Terminus would be dead. Morgan quietly emphasized Rick's hypocrisy by pointing out that Rick's lack of willingness to take Carol's life resulted in her saving everyone down the line.

 

I can't be the only one who noticed Rick swaggering and preening this episode about what a badass he was for killing without conscience: confidently asserting he was unaffected by everything he'd done and was not in danger of being affected by it, boasting to Michonne that there was nothing they couldn't handle, retroactively praising Carol for murdering two members of the community (the very acts for which he exiled her). The only problem is, it's all a lie. Even at his worst, Rick has never been as brutal as Carol or has done what she has felt compelled to do, so he has no idea what she's going through. Rick has never sunk as low as Morgan, randomly murdering innocent people out of fear, so he has no idea what Morgan's been through. Rick is full of shit, and his idiocy in strutting around like he's got it all figured out, smugly informing Morgan that he, Rick, has been untouched by his actions (and therefore better than Morgan and Carol for it, he seems to be suggesting), is proof enough of that.

 

Moreover, Morgan knows that Rick is full of shit, and he gently pointed it out this episode. Rick seems to know it, too, on some level, thus his lack of rancour towards Morgan despite the revelation that Morgan had secretly harboured the Wolf. Morgan had him dead to rights, and he knew it.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Eyes High

[paigow]

I look at them as mafia. 

Except they don't have a "code of silence"

 

confidently boasting to Michonne that there was nothing they couldn't handle

Much like Picard before his first Borg encounter....

[catrox14]

Well, it was more like. "I'm not right, there is no right, BUT....you're wrong."

 

I took at as, "I'm not right, there is no right...but because I didn't kill someone other people lived, YET because he didn't kill someone other people died" but mostly that Rick was needed at Alexandria more than out finding Carol.  I think they were both right and wrong. 

 

Wait,what? I think I lost myself.

Edited March 28, 2016 by catrox14

[Dodginblue]

He also left out that he let the Wolf go a second time during the raid on Alexandria, and allowed him to arm himself on the way out.  I guess he figured he better not tell Rick everything, just in case he hit "straw that broke the camel's back" level. He's kind of a parasite, just taking and never giving back to his host.

 

I wonder who told Morgan about Carol being banished, how that happened, what precipitated it.  Maybe it was Carol herself.   I can't remember who knows about all that and who doesn't.  Anyway, I find it interesting that no one's told Rick about exactly what happened with Morgan and the Wolf and Carol.   It seems as though maybe those involved came to some kind of agreement about that, which maybe means those characters don't see it in black and white terms, Morgan bad, Carol good or whatever.   Maybe they thought Morgan kept the Wolf for interrogation purposes, which actually would have made a lot more sense than Morgan's stated reasons.

 

i found the Morgan-Rick exchange fairly tedious and didn't listen all that closely.  It's so much blah blah to me when I think in reality they'd be scanning their surroundings and looking behind themselves once in awhile, being alert and not really talking at all, except in support of the mission.  They've got all the time in the world to talk about the ethics of killing in the time of the Zombies when they're sitting around the living room back in Alexandria.

[Enero]

When Rick was at the Hilltop, his body language after talking to Michonne indicated that he was worried and not as confident as he sounded. So I am taking his confidence as him trying not to hide his doubts. Although, he probably is more confident in the Alexandrians ability to fight now. Besides, Rick and his people are not going to lose to Negan in the long run, even if they do suffer losses in the short term so he isn't completely wrong to be confident. He will just have to live with the pain of who they loss along the way.

As long as that loss doesn't include Michonne, Carl or Darryl I THINK I can live with the pain of who they loose in this battle.

Forgot to also say, I enjoyed the Rick/Michonne scene. They are beautiful and sexy as hell. Though the arrogance and biblical imagery was a little over the top, it was clear that though they are about to go through hell AGAIN, that they are not going to lay down and take whatever sh^t comes their way. They have a lot more to fight for now. And though Negan will likely hand them their asses in the first round or two or three, they will be more feral in their fight than ever before and ultimately take him down.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Enero

[SimoneS]

Rick's previous half measure with Carol saved Rick and everyone else at Terminus, something Morgan astutely pointed out. Had it not been for Rick taking a Morgan-style approach at that time, as opposed to Carol's full measure to terminate Lizzie when she showed herself to be a threat to Judith, Rick, Carl, and everyone else captured at Terminus would be dead. Morgan quietly emphasized Rick's hypocrisy by pointing out that Rick's lack of willingness to take Carol's life resulted in her saving everyone down the line.

 

I can't be the only one who noticed Rick swaggering and preening this episode about what a badass he was for killing without conscience: confidently asserting he was unaffected by everything he'd done and was not in danger of being affected by it, boasting to Michonne that there was nothing they couldn't handle, retroactively praising Carol for murdering two members of the community (the very acts for which he exiled her). The only problem is, it's all a lie. Even at his worst, Rick has never been as brutal as Carol or has done what she has felt compelled to do, so he has no idea what she's going through. Rick has never sunk as low as Morgan, randomly murdering innocent people out of fear, so he has no idea what Morgan's been through. Rick is full of shit, and his idiocy in strutting around like he's got it all figured out, smugly informing Morgan that he, Rick, has been untouched by his actions (and therefore better than Morgan and Carol for it, he seems to be suggesting), is proof enough of that.

 

Moreover, Morgan knows that Rick is full of shit, and he gently pointed it out this episode. Rick seems to know it, too, on some level, thus his lack of rancour towards Morgan despite the revelation that Morgan had secretly harboured the Wolf. Morgan had him dead to rights, and he knew it.

 

I cannot agree with this. It seems to me the writing selectively recounted events to support Morgan's faulty argument. Rick didn't start anything with the Saviors, any more than he did with Phillip or Gareth or Dawn. You could argue that he attacked Joe's group first, but they were talking about raping Michonne when she returned so was Rick supposed to wait and see if they kidding around? Also, Morgan's point about the Wolf was ridiculous because he put Denise in danger the first place and letting the other Wolves get away with weapons almost resulted in Rick's death. Rick suddenly supporting Carol killing Karen and David was the biggest false note.

 

My bigger problem is that I did not recognize the Rick having this conversation with Morgan. Rick was transformed into someone else so that Morgan could make these grand philosophical statements about life and death. The thing is that Rick already knows this because he and Hershel had this conversation in a more believable way.  This was season three when Gimple was not in charge so maybe he decided to rehash this. However, I am disappointed in Gimple. It was like he couldn't figure out a coherent way to have Morgan make this valid philosophical argument so he decided to take a shortcut and ignore the character that he helped develop in Rick.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[peach]

Rick's previous half measure with Carol saved Rick and everyone else at Terminus, something Morgan astutely pointed out. Had it not been for Rick taking a Morgan-style approach at that time, as opposed to Carol's full measure to terminate Lizzie when she showed herself to be a threat to Judith, Rick, Carl, and everyone else captured at Terminus would be dead. Morgan quietly emphasized Rick's hypocrisy by pointing out that Rick's lack of willingness to take Carol's life resulted in her saving everyone down the line.

 

I can't be the only one who noticed Rick swaggering and preening this episode about what a badass he was for killing without conscience: confidently asserting he was unaffected by everything he'd done and was not in danger of being affected by it, boasting to Michonne that there was nothing they couldn't handle, retroactively praising Carol for murdering two members of the community (the very acts for which he exiled her). The only problem is, it's all a lie. Even at his worst, Rick has never been as brutal as Carol or has done what she has felt compelled to do, so he has no idea what she's going through. Rick has never sunk as low as Morgan, randomly murdering innocent people out of fear, so he has no idea what Morgan's been through. Rick is full of shit, and his idiocy in strutting around like he's got it all figured out, smugly informing Morgan that he, Rick, has been untouched by his actions (and therefore better than Morgan and Carol for it, he seems to be suggesting), is proof enough of that.

 

Moreover, Morgan knows that Rick is full of shit, and he gently pointed it out this episode. Rick seems to know it, too, on some level, thus his lack of rancour towards Morgan despite the revelation that Morgan had secretly harboured the Wolf. Morgan had him dead to rights, and he knew it.

 

Well, opinions vary, but the whole scene was full of shit.  I wish they hadn't even brought up the David and Karen situation because the whole virus thing was a totally different threat than living, breathing, sentient, enemy murderers planning to kill you with malice aforethought.  Rick banished Carol instead of killing her, because she was family.  It was an internal affairs situation, not an external threat. And in all Morgan's twisted up logic, he's actually making a point that it was better for Carol to have killed them and ended up exiled because that's how she was able to come to the rescue and help Tyreese save Judith and the girls.  As far as Carol killing contagious sick people, that's a different issue.

 

Rick's current cockiness is little bit bravado, and the rest is pure contrivance for the big setup with The Ultimate Bad Guy next week.  And I'll take an episode of swagger after endless seasons of wavering and partial craziness.

 

Rick has no idea what Morgan's going through, because Morgan won't admit what he did when he was "clearing."  Instead he gave an highly edited, self-serving "confession" about his absolutely indefensible actions with the Wolf.  He expects Rick to come his way on the value of life, while not giving an inch or admitting even MAYBE that he shouldn't have kept that Wolf in the compound without anyone even knowing about such a dangerous threat.  Rick's lack of rancor was completely unbelievable to me. 

 

Morgan secretly kept a brutal, psychotic murderer across the street from Carl and Judith, attacked Carol to keep him there, and almost got the doctor killed in the process.  Oh, but it was all WORTH IT because at the last second he shoved a zombie out of Denise's way.  That he thinks that vindicates his actions is the worst bit of fuckery I've heard yet.  But Rick nods wisely and lets him go search for Carol even though he won't kill anybody to save her life.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

@ boofish....

David wasn't from Woodbury.

He was part of the Decatur group, survivors found and joined Team Prison.

[catrox14]

I really loved all the Rick/Morgan stuff.

 

I think Rick's demeanor was due to feeling some real hope for the future because he found love again and IMO he never believed it could happen..not really. I think Andy was wonderful playing Rick with fearful hope during his conversation with Morgan and Abe.  Basically, Rick has been believing in the idea of belief more than believing it would really happen..if that makes any sense. But now that it has, he's more confident.

 

I thought their entire outing was heavily reminiscent of the Rick that met Morgan, who left messages of hope for Morgan on the radio, and the Rick that found Morgan again after Morgan lost his mind. Rick understood because Rick had lost his mind after he woke up.  Their connection has always been true for me.  IMO Morgan and his son were Rick's first mini-family after he woke up and Rick still respects it.  

 

I thought Andy wove in Rick's current frame of mind WRT to having to kill and that at times hesitating to kill now could get them killed and still found that original connection with Morgan.

 

I also really laughed at Rick ratting out Michonne and the protein bar.

 

I kept wondering if Carol literally had something up her sleeve but because of her meltdown last week, I wasn't sure.  She's a Reluctant Warrior now.

Edited March 28, 2016 by catrox14

[Eyes High]

I cannot agree with this. It seems to me the writing selectively recounted events to support Morgan's faulty argument. Rick didn't start anything with the Saviors, any more than he did with Phillip or Gareth or Dawn. You could argue that he attacked Joe's group first, but they were talking about raping Michonne when she returned so was Rick supposed to wait and see if they kidding around? Also, Morgan's point about the Wolf was ridiculous because he put Denise in danger the first place and letting the other Wolves get away with weapons almost resulted in Rick's death. Rick suddenly supporting Carol killing Karen and David was the biggest false note.

 

My bigger problem is that I did not recognize the Rick having this conversation with Morgan. Rick was transformed into someone else so that Morgan could make these grand philosophical statements about life and death. The thing is that Rick already knows this because he and Hershel had this conversation is a more believable way. 

 

It's believable to me. Nothing Rick said in that conversation was at odds with the person Rick is today. Herschel died several seasons ago, and Rick circa Season 6 is a very different man, who is currently puffed up with his own murderous pragmatism...the way Carol once was, actually.  It's entirely in character for Season 6 Rick to argue in favour of an action that horrified him back at the prison. That's the kind of person he's become.

 

Rick circa Season 6 reminds me of Carol circa late Season 5: threatening people, casually making noises about killing people if they don't get in line, urging preemptive murder, etc. I suspect there's a reason for that.

 

Also, Rick saying he was "proud" of Carol for killing more people (and therefore traumatizing herself even more) is proof of how stupid he's sounding these days. Dumbass. I shared Morgan's incredulous "Really?". Carol abandoned Alexandria because she was so traumatized by the act of killing that she would rather abandon her home than be forced to kill again, and Rick is proud that she was forced to do more of it?

 

As far as Carol killing contagious sick people, that's a different issue.

Rick certainly didn't see it that way at the time. That he claims to see it that way now is proof of his hypocrisy. Own your shit, Rick. If you hadn't been as "weak" as Morgan supposedly is at the prison, you'd be dead.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Eyes High

[Dodginblue]

 

Morgan secretly kept a brutal, psychotic murderer across the street from Carl and Judith, attacked Carol to keep him there, and almost got the doctor killed in the process.  Oh, but it was all WORTH IT because at the last second he shoved a zombie out of Denise's way.  That he thinks that vindicates his actions is the worst bit of fuckery I've heard yet.  But Rick nods wisely and lets him go search for Carol even though he won't kill anybody to save her life.

Especially because the Wolf was only trying to help Denise because he wanted her to save him from his zombie bite.  It wasn't exactly the self-sacrificing moment of redemption Morgan might like to believe it was.  

 

I think it's possible that Morgan and Rick both have very selective memories about what's happened before and what their motivations were then and would be now. And that they sincerely believe what they're spouting.  It's part of coping, Morgan wanting to believe that he's become this great appreciator of human life and can see the good in the worst among them and Rick convincing himself that he's the clear-eyed, rational protector, who will pay any price, bear any burden to keep his family safe.

[catrox14]

 

As far as Carol killing contagious sick people, that's a different issue.

Rick certainly didn't see it that way at the time. That he claims to see it that way now is proof of his hypocrisy. Own your shit, Rick. If you hadn't been as "weak" as Morgan supposedly is at the prison, you'd be dead.

 

I thought it was hypocrisy for a moment but I thought more about it and I think it is consistent with who Rick is now. Considering it came after Rick had his total meltdown, that informed his thought processes.  But if that happened NOW I think the Rick NOW...might very well agree it was right or at least not as wrong as he thought it was before.

 

Rick can be hypocritical, but after thinking on it more...I don't think this is a case of it. I think this is him actually changing.

 

I think maybe if Andy had played it little more...conflicted, it might have seemed less of a "RUHHHRRR...wut?"  YMMV

[Happy Harpy]

I loved Rick and Morgan "Mm, this looks like Carol's handywork" moment.

 

They had Carol mention Tara's reaction to Denise's death, at least.

 

Loved the Rick/Michonne scene. He was so worried in the end but I couldn't go aww because noooo she's really in danger.

Carl sighting! Judith sighting (through the screen)! Call me greedy, but I wish I had a Grimes family scene before the shit hit the fan. And maybe Carl could worry about Michonne, too, and call her "mom" when she comes back alive.

 

Maggie and Glenn are so sweet, I'm afraid she's going to lose either her baby, either her husband (not both, please!). Enid and Maggie were adorable, and Enid should smile more often, it becomes her.

 

There's a strange thing with Rick. When he's in a scene with Abraham or Morgan I hate them less. Even though I still mostly disagree with Morgan's POV, at least he's doing something instead of training with his stick.

 

Epidemic of plotdriven-itis in this episode. On the one hand, I don't want the much hyped evulz Negan anywhere near my Little Asskicker so if suspension of disbelief and dick moves were necessary for the main characters to go to Negan instead of Negan going to Alexandria, then be it. On the other hand, Dwight constantly "outwitting" CDB is getting tedious indeed.

 

I don't think that Daryl is dead, they're going to pull a Glenn/dumpster thing. If Rosita is shot instead, I won't be happy. 

 

There were slow parts in this one but I agree that in general, this half-season has been better so far than the previous one. Next week is going to be insane.

[peach]

Rick certainly didn't see it that way at the time. That he claims to see it that way now is proof of his hypocrisy. Own your shit, Rick. If you hadn't been as "weak" as Morgan supposedly is at the prison, you'd be dead.

 

The consensus seems to be that it's not great writing to have Rick defend that choice now.  But they're mixing two different arguments there, anyway.  Carol was not a threat that was going to show back up with 1. a tank  2. cannibals  3. a stolen crossbow, etc. etc.  Carol wasn't going to come back to finish off the virus once and for all.  Carol was not an enemy.  Morgan is making an insane false equivalency between sparing Carol and saving a Wolf swearing to chop them all to bits just cuz.  Or killing the Neganites who have already attacked their group on the road.  He lives in safety because they kill people.  He's not required to kill anyone, either.  Rick's willing to let him be a conscientious objector, yet live under their protection. 

It was poorly written and stupid.  IMHO.  lol

Does Morgan know that Denise is actually dead now because Daryl had mercy on Dwight?  (That's a lot of D's)  

[Madding crowd]

it seems odd that we have heard so much about JDM as Negan in the media, only to have to wait until the season finale to see him. I wasn't a huge fan of this episode. If Carol doesn't want to kill, maybe hole up for a bit behind the walls. Going on on your own means you will still have to kill. It also was kind of annoying that so many people have to be out looking for either Carol or Daryl. And of course, CDB gets snuck up at least once an episode. Honestly, the next time Rick brags about how big and bad he is, maybe think about the fact that the Saviors are getting on jump on them every time they turn around. And yes they get out of it through some TV magic thing (which would never happen in real life). In real life for example, Carol would not be able to hold that heavy weapon under her sweater so easily and still fire it. 

 

I didn't understand the point of the Maggie hair cut scene was since it really did nothing to make her safer or more of a warrior. I can only guess it's the usual excuse of : "Its in the comic book" which seems to be the answer to all odd things. I really don't want Maggie to lose the baby especially if Glen may die as well. 

 

And finally: I still like Morgan and would rather live with someone like him who will kill but not unless he has to, then Carol who kills first and asks questions later. Also, how can you chew an apple while lying down without choking? 

[Dobian]

Biggest fatality this episode: Lauren Cohan's beautiful hair.  Why oh why?

 

What's with the tuning fork sound when Maggie doubles over?  Is her unborn baby a banshee or something?

 

I've had enough of your "all life is precious" speeches, Morgan.  Yes, the Wolf saved Denise.  Of course he didn't need to kidnap her in the first place, and if he had survived he would have just killed someone else, and someone else, and someone else.

 

Things aren't looking good for Daryl/Glenn/Rosita/Michonne.

[Dodginblue]

The consensus seems to be that it's not great writing to have Rick defend that choice now.  But they're mixing two different arguments there, anyway.  Carol was not a threat that was going to show back up with 1. a tank  2. cannibals  3. a stolen crossbow, etc. etc.  Carol wasn't going to come back to finish off the virus once and for all.  Carol was not an enemy.  Morgan is making an insane false equivalency between sparing Carol and saving a Wolf swearing to chop them all to bits just cuz.  Or killing the Neganites who have already attacked their group on the road.  He lives in safety because they kill people.  He's not required to kill anyone, either.  Rick's willing to let him be a conscientious objector, yet live under their protection. 

It was poorly written and stupid.  IMHO.  lol

 

Morgan's argument seems to be that sparing a life can have positive consequences.  He uses Rick banishing Carol and not killing her and her subsequent saving of the group as proof.  If x (sparing a life), then y (good things happen).  In that equation, it doesn't really matter why the life was spared or if killing the person wasn't really ever considered, as long as it was a possibility, which I suppose Rick could have killed Carol back at the prison even if he never considered it.  

 

The problem for Morgan, to the extent he truly believes that "all life is precious", which honestly they need to stop having him say that because it makes me laugh every time he does, is that there are far more examples of X, then z (bad things happen).   The Governor, the Claimers, the people at Terminus,   

 

Really the whole thing is just so much hoo-haa anyway because the way this show is written we never really meet anyone worth sparing. Or they're not around for very long.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Dodginblue

[ShadowSixx]

Rick saying they know how to take what they want is such a huge statement and that's possibly going to be a big anvil. Yes they had success and are almost invincible but do need to realize that they're human and bound to slip up. 

 

Morgan really needs to get off the "all life is precious" shit because it's not true anymore in the ZA. Some lives unfortunately have to be taken since people are not working together to end the zombies and willing to kill each other for supplies, food, etc. Let him stay gone until he realizes that not all life is precious. 

 

For a samurai Michonne sure as hell does get captured and taken hostage a lot by Merle, Governor, and now Dwight's group. She needs to take that sword and go all ninja assassin on their asses.

 

Love Carol she continues to kill and able to play the elder woman role nicely and fooling people enough to kill them. 

 

It's also nice to see that the group isn't invincible though and are able to get captured but then again it seems to always be the same people for some odd reason Glenn always near death, Michonne captured, and Daryl held up once again by Dwight. Carol really should be teaching ASZ how to fool people or something because she's great at it. She should have taught them this before she left.

 

Love Maggie's new haircut, looks nice on her. Didn't see it when she was on The Talking Dead.

[SimoneS]

It's believable to me. Nothing Rick said in that conversation was at odds with the person Rick is today. Herschel died several seasons ago, and Rick circa Season 6 is a very different man, who is currently puffed up with his own murderous pragmatism...the way Carol once was, actually.  It's entirely in character for Season 6 Rick to argue in favour of an action that horrified him back at the prison. That's the kind of person he's become.

 

Rick circa Season 6 reminds me of Carol circa late Season 5: threatening people, casually making noises about killing people if they don't get in line, urging preemptive murder, etc. I suspect there's a reason for that.

 

Also, Rick saying he was "proud" of Carol for killing more people (and therefore traumatizing herself even more) is proof of how stupid he's sounding these days. Dumbass. I shared Morgan's incredulous "Really?". Carol abandoned Alexandria because she was so traumatized by the act of killing that she would rather abandon her home than be forced to kill again, and Rick is proud that she was forced to do more of it?

 

Rick certainly didn't see it that way at the time. That he claims to see it that way now is proof of his hypocrisy. Own your shit, Rick. If you hadn't been as "weak" as Morgan supposedly is at the prison, you'd be dead.

 

We have to agree to disagree. IMO, the ruthless Rick who you and Gimple claim exists is simply not does not appear on the show. I see a Rick who has come to a balance where he is willing to take new people in and give people a chance, but realizes based on his experience that the bad ones always come back so he has to take action. I have no clue who Rick out on the road with Morgan last night was. I don't think that it is too much to ask Gimple to be honest and true the main character that he helped develop and to give some basic coherence to Morgan's argument instead of using deception and false equivalencies. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[peach]

And finally: I still like Morgan and would rather live with someone like him who will kill but not unless he has to, then Carol who kills first and asks questions later.

 

Hey, now, Carol tells them to run away first now.  They just don't listen.

 

 

Also, how can you chew an apple while lying down without choking?

 

That apple knows not to screw with Rick Grimes!

[easypeasy]

Well, I got to luxuriate in some Richonne cuddling, so there was that. But damn if Chelle aka mole girl wasn't right about Rick being a smug prick, 'The world is ours', eh?
I felt a wave of sadness as Maggie watched Glen leave, I feel like they're never gonna see each other again...hope I'm wrong. I'm mad at Glen and Michonne for following Daryl on his suicide mission.
Morgan and Rick got everything off their chests- Carol's  back story, the wolves, the billionth 'all life is precious' debate, proteinbargate and a sorta goodbye- so, this feels like the end of the line for Morgan.
How many times is Carol going to do this ' please don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry' schtick?

[SimoneS]

Morgan's argument seems to be that sparing a life can have positive consequences.  He uses Rick banishing Carol and not killing her and her subsequent saving of the group as proof.  If x (sparing a life), then y (good things happen).  In that equation, it doesn't really matter why the life was spared or if killing the person wasn't really ever considered, as long as it was a possibility, which I suppose Rick could have killed Carol back at the prison even if he never considered it.  

 

The problem for Morgan, to the extent he truly believes that "all life is precious", which honestly they need to stop having him say that because it makes me laugh every time he does, is that there are far more examples of X, then z (bad things happen).   The Governor, the Claimers, the people at Terminus,   

 

What about when Morgan said that he would let the Wolves go again with the guns after they almost killed Rick? How would it be positive for Carl and Judith be orphans, Michonne to lose her man before finding him, and the group leaderless.

 

The more I think about it, the most I think that this Morgan "life is precious" spiel is more likely a set up for a spoiler from the comic to play out on the screen. It is the only explain for the lengths Gimple is taking this ridiculous premise.

[shanndee]

We have to agree to disagree IMO, the ruthless Rick who you and Gimple claim exists is simply not does not appear on the show. I see a Rick who has come to a balance where he is willing to take new people in and give people a chance, but realizes based on his experience that the bad ones always come back so he has to take action. I have no clue who Rick out on the road with Morgan last night was. I don't think that it is too much to ask Gimple to be honest and true the main character that he helped develop and to give some basic coherence to Morgan's argument instead of using deception and false equivalencies. 

 

I guess this really does speak to the fact that we all see something different when we watch this show. When I watch a scene with Rick I see a man who is balancing on a razor's edge. He can fall to either side. He may not be completely ruthless, but he is certainly more than a little unbalanced. I don't see this as a bad thing either. Rick is a complex character, and I fluctuate between quite liking him and actively hating him fairly often. 

[peach]

Morgan's argument seems to be that sparing a life can have positive consequences.  He uses Rick banishing Carol and not killing her and her subsequent saving of the group as proof.  If x (sparing a life), then y (good things happen).  In that equation, it doesn't really matter why the life was spared or if killing the person wasn't really ever considered, as long as it was a possibility, which I suppose Rick could have killed Carol back at the prison even if he never considered it.  

 

 

Which means Carol killing Karen and David led to this good thing!    lol   Killing x led to sparing y which led to saving pdq.  Maybe he should switch to "everything happens for a reason" and leave it at that.

 

 

The problem for Morgan, to the extent he truly believes that "all life is precious", which honestly they need to stop having him say that because it makes me laugh every time he does, is that there are far more examples of X, then z (bad things happen).   The Governor, the Claimers, the people at Terminus

 

And currently Dwight, who has killed Denise, kidnapped Glenn and Michonne, shot Daryl, and still isn't finished.

 

 

Really the whole thing is just so much hoo-haa anyway because the way this show is written we never really meet anyone worth sparing. Or they're not around for very long.

 

Agreed!

[thuganomics85]

Well, Happy Easter, I guess!

 

Actually, I really doubt Daryl is dead, because I totally think if he is going to die, it will be way more dramatic then that.  I'm guessing he was just wounded, but I really worry that it was all a fake-out, and it was Rosita that got shot.  That would be very annoying if she dies like that, just for Daryl to feel like shit.  And maybe Abraham to regret his harsh words from episodes ago.  She's finally getting interesting now, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time the show did that.

 

Besides those last few minutes, kind of slow and boring episode for me.  I hate to say it, but I groan anytime Morgan shows up.  Lennie James will never not be awesome, but the sooner Morgan is no longer hogging the screen with his prattling, moralizing, and long-winded speeches, the better.  The way he tried to make him sparing that one Wolf a good thing was mind-blowing in how stupid it was.  I really wanted Rick to just be like "You do realize Denise never would have even been in danger in the first place, had you just, I don't know, kept a psycho like him alive?!"

 

That said, I do give Rick a side-eye for automatically defending Carol's past actions, because I do think it was because he wasn't that close to the two people.  Had it been, say, Carl who she stabbed and then burn?  Yeah, I think Rick would have shot her on the spot.

 

Speaking of Carol, once again, she managed to defy all odds and kill a bunch of people, although she clearly hates doing it.  But I was too busy distracted over how she basically stole the car from Alexandra.  Major dick move there, Carol.  How do you know they might have not needed it in the future?  If you want to go off on you spiritual quest or whatever, fine.  But you walk, dammit!

 

Maggie's having major complications with the baby.  That's not good.  At least she's got a new haircut, which was pretty awesome.  Then again, Lauren Cohan looks hot even when she's covered in Walker blood, so of course, she'd rock the short-haired look.

 

Finale is coming up and once again, all I can say is that Negan better live up to the hype.  Because with the exception of Dwight, the Saviors still are just a bunch of red shirt chumps.  They really need something to sell them as a threat, because so far, they ain't cutting it.

[GaT]

What a surprise, Maggie is losing the baby. I would never have thought of that plot twist /s>

 

I bet she's the one who dies.

Edited March 28, 2016 by GaT

[rab01]

I'd hate the selfishness of Daryl and Carol leaving like this if it wasn't so obviously a contrived piece of bullshit to get the chess pieces to the right squares on the board. 

 

I noticed two things towards the end -- (1) After she was captured, Michonne was twisting her shoulders around like she was cutting the cords behind her back. Maybe, she's how they get out of it next episode.  (2) The after the fade out line from Dwight (you'll be all right) was nice and villainy but I wonder did they really do it because of all the shit they got over the Glenn fake-out? I think they wanted to forestall the same torrent of criticism this time.

[Sentient Meat]

When you lock up at-risk people for minor offenses, you create a safer environment... if you round up all people of a dissident demographic and expel them from your community you lower the odds of a terrorist attack.... if the state executes violent criminals for capital offenses... the world rids itself of people that made life more dangerous... but each of these comes at a moral price.  In the immediate aftermath of a unimaginable apocalyptic crisis it makes sense that people would be given a grace period or moratorium on certain civil liberties, but as you find yourself trying to rebuild a community it becomes too easy to justify the permanent implementation of martial law as an inevitable by-product of a hostile world.  Morgan and Carol, perhaps a little too obviously are simply asking the questions that Dale once did... what good is living if you behave no differently than Negan's group or even the walkers themselves?   If you build a wall around your community, kick out anyone that looks at you a little funny, and take a kill first ask questions later foreign policy stance you might find yourself emulating some embarrassing real world figures that in other contexts you might normally dismiss. 

[slf]

Carol was not a threat that was going to show back up with 1. a tank  2. cannibals  3. a stolen crossbow, etc. etc.  Carol wasn't going to come back to finish off the virus once and for all.  Carol was not an enemy. Morgan is making an insane false equivalency between sparing Carol and saving a Wolf swearing to chop them all to bits just cuz.

 

No, but she made the choice to murder two people in order to accomplish nothing. Those people weren't wandering around the prison coughing on everyone else, they were basically isolated. They weren't a threat. Killing them didn't stop anything. The infected were isolated and the virus ran its course. Carol in no way contributed to the survival of the group during that time, but she did pointlessly murder two people. So while Carol might have believed she had a super good reason, she didn't. It's why even the show isn't making the argument "if Carol hadn't killed Karen and David then the virus would have kept spreading and everyone would have died." Because: no. 

 

I'm not with either Rick or Morgan - because I think they've both gone too far to either side of things - but Carol one hundred percent was in the wrong in that prison and she did commit two pointless murders.

[peach]

No, but she made the choice to murder two people in order to accomplish nothing. Those people weren't wandering around the prison coughing on everyone else, they were basically isolated. They weren't a threat. Killing them didn't stop anything. The infected were isolated and the virus ran its course. Carol in no way contributed to the survival of the group during that time, but she did pointlessly murder two people. So while Carol might have believed she had a super good reason, she didn't. It's why even the show isn't making the argument "if Carol hadn't killed Karen and David then the virus would have kept spreading and everyone would have died." Because: no. 

 

I'm not with either Rick or Morgan - because I think they've both gone too far to either side of things - but Carol one hundred percent was in the wrong in that prison and she did commit two pointless murders.

The Wolves made the choice to murder people to literally accomplish nothing.  Carol was trying to accomplish something, even if it ended up accomplishing nothing.

 

Morgan's claiming Rick sparing Carol = Morgan sparing road bandits. Carol was trying to save the rest of the group, not kill them all, even if she was 100% wrong.  All the people Morgan wants to spare, that Rick wants to kill, are dedicated enemies that want to murder them and steal their stuff.  Or just butcher them for delusional entertainment, like the Wolves.  The writing complicated the whole issue with Rick suddenly backing up Carol's decision to kill the sick people, which, whatever.  It didn't make a whole lot of sense.  But whether he now agrees with it or not, her original intent is the issue. 

 

Rick doesn't spare enemy combatants because they come back and kill again.  Carol's prison situation is just different.  It's different because she's in-group, and because she was fighting a disease, not the individuals themselves.  It's a unique problem, and has zero to do with enemy psychopaths determined to kill them. 

 

Rick obviously still finds life valuable.  He didn't kill Father Gabriel for betraying them.  He didn't kill Jesus that day on the road.  He hasn't killed Morgan, even though he caused Rick to be attacked because of the FIRST time he let Wolves go, and then he kept another one around behind his back!  He doesn't want to kill everybody, he wants to kill their enemies.  Morgan is the one being an absolutist.

Edited March 28, 2016 by peach

[The Mighty Peanut]

The speechifying reminds me of one of those spoof movies where someone rightly points out that if everyone would just shut the hell up and get to the killing they wouldn't keep getting blindsided all the time.