S02.E03: New York's Finest

[The Crazed Spruce]

Trapped face-to-face with the Punisher, Daredevil wrestles with the morality of vigilante justice. Meanwhile, Foggy and Karen work to save the firm.

[pootlus]

Loved this one.  Good to have the essential hypocrisy of Matt's attitude explored.

 

Also I can see the showrunners going "You know that awesome corridor fight from last year? How do we make the one this year be more difficult and awesome? I know, let's have it on a stairwell!"

[Bec]

Hey, it was hallway AND stairs. Next year maybe it'll be a fight in a hallway AND stairs AND elevator shaft. I already heard in interviews that they're doing something like the hallway fight on crack. I wasn't sure it was going to live up to the hype, but it did not disappoint. The old hallway fight will always have a special place in my heart, but when this got to the part with the stairs I was like "daaaamn".

 

Still Team Daredevil on the whole kill or not to kill debate. Though I have to say, it was not smart of him to keep antagonizing the guy who has him chained up. Maybe wait until you've actually gotten out of the chains to call him a nutjob.

[The Crazed Spruce]

BTW, the scene between Daredevil and Punisher on the rooftop was more or less taken from an issue of The Punisher written by Garth Ennis. (Though in the comic,

the gun wasn't loaded, and Daredevil actually tried to shoot The Punisher

. I actually prefer the way it played out on the show. Seems truer to the character.)

[Cthulhudrew]

I had seen clips of DD chained up, and figured they were going to be doing a riff on the Ennis scene. I agree with Crazed Spruce that I thought it played out better here. (Although I guess this means Turk and Grotto will never buddy up. Sniff.)

 

Really well done interplay between Frank and Matt and their whole dialogue. It's something that has been done many times in comics between the two (or Frank and whomever the hero of the moment is), but seeing two live actors perform it puts it on a different level. They're really going gung-ho on the Punisher stuff so far in these three episodes, which leads me to think that they'll wrap it up pretty quick and get to something entirely different (the Hand, obviously, and Elektra being part of that). I've kind of suspected that there was going to be a lot more going on than just the Punisher/Elektra stuff that was hyped up, and applaud the marketing team's efforts at keeping a lid on it all, while feeding the audience what they have. A very good bit of sleight of hand. Can't wait to see what else is coming.

[starri]

Senor Foggy is still my favorite.

[AimingforYoko]

They really upped the ante on choreography this season, but my favorite moment is when Matt shot the chains. The man did go to Columbia.

[VCRTracking]

Great episode. The fight with the bikers with Matt armed only with a chain, starting in the hallway, going down the stairwell and down to the lobby was freaking awesome. What I really loved though was the rooftop debate between DD and the Punisher. I have to admit Frank made some good points(which is kind of scary). Also love the homage to Garth Ennis' Punisher story with Frank taping the gun to DD's hand, forcing him to choose. Claire and Foggy's scenes in the hospital were also great. We never got to see them interact in the first season, since it happened offscreen. I love her mentioning Luke Cage as whom she got fired for helping. Wish she could have mentioned Jessica Jones too.

[Danny Franks]

So of course we got the first moral debate between Daredevil and the Punisher in this episode. The scenes had a very cool energy, with Matt being uncharacteristically chatty and engaging to try and draw something out of the taciturn Punisher. Jon Bernthal was perhaps born for this role. He's able to portray a dangerously, scarily unhinged character so well. Loved that he didn't take Daredevil's mask off because he genuinely didn't care who he was.

Also "Well boohoo! Everybody's lost someone, that doesn't mean you have to do this", was a fantastic meta-comment on superheroes and vigilantes.

It was the best sort of argument, because both guys were as right as they were wrong. And the idea of 'the guys I beat up just end up back on the streets so why bother?' is pure vigilante lore. It's a twist on the argument from last season, where Fisk and Matt had the same goal of improving the city but wanted to go about it in utterly different ways. Same again, but on a smaller, even more brutal scale.

Loved seeing Claire again. She's a really great character, who can easily drop in and out of this and the other shows. And Rosario Dawson is good at portraying a woman who has just about had it with all these assholes. Luke Cage mention, but I really wish that Claire had told Foggy she knew a really good PI he could talk to.

Seeing Foggy worrying about Matt is something we don't get much of in the genre. It's a very human beat for the show. But he's going to end up with an ulcer before the end of the season. But man, him telling those two gangbangers to grow the fuck up was awesome.

Karen trying to get them some protection was excellent. She's got serious cojones, and is really coming into her own so far, this season. The Punisher symbol x-ray was a nice touch.

The big fight scene was actually better than the one from the first season, I thought. Seemed more tightly choreographed and dynamic, and Matt having to improvise with the chain was very cool. I love the way they show him getting more and more tired and sloppy as it goes on.

[Lady Calypso]

I wish I rewatched season 1 before watching this season, because I don't know whether I like Fisk more, or if I like Frank/Punisher. I honestly LOVED the Matt/Punisher interactions. I haven't seen the rest of the season yet, but I thought this was a very strong episode because of them. I think that both are wrong and right, which is nice. While Fisk was mostly just plain wrong, Punisher's reasons for doing what he does is entirely relateable. I know I've had thoughts about what if we could just finish the bad guys once and for all, and it comes into question the morality aspect of killing or not. I wasn't even sure how Daredevil/Punisher's interactions would work, as I've never read the comics so I wouldn't understand how it would work. Luckily, this just really made me enjoy Punisher and made me understand him really well. So yeah, as of right now, until I rewatch season 1 and until I finish this season, I'm going with Punisher as the better of the two villains thus far. Plus, I think he will get Matt to see that sometimes, it's actually ok to do what's best which might be to kill. Again, I don't know much about the comics or how the rest of the season is going to go, so we'll see.

 

Claire/Foggy interactions make me happy. I love that Foggy is still not liking Matt's night activities, but he has to accept it. He's so concerned about his friend and it's nice to see. Plus, he shut those two thugs down! That was an awesome scene, and I liked seeing Claire being reluctant to help out at first, but finally going for it.

 

I love Karen, I do. I think she's a fantastic female character, one that we don't see much on television or in film. She can hold her own, she gets things done and she's doing this all without Matt or Foggy. Well, at least partially. Foggy's distracted by Matt's disappearance, so she has to be the one to save the firm. I love how badass she is. I loved her last season and I love her this season so far. 

 

The big fight scene was so much better than last season's, and that's not even to denounce last season's fight scene. They just brought the bar higher for next season. It worked really well.

[Kel Varnsen]

Loved this one.  Good to have the essential hypocrisy of Matt's attitude explored.

 

Also I can see the showrunners going "You know that awesome corridor fight from last year? How do we make the one this year be more difficult and awesome? I know, let's have it on a stairwell!"

The kill/no kill debate and the hypocrisy on both sides is interesting, especially looking at Matt's where he might not kill, but at least one of those bikers is probably permanently, seriously injured. How would he feel if the guy he pulled over the stairs by the chain ended up a paraplegic?

Nice to see Karen is still a badas. Going after the assistant DA like that was amazing. Also really interesting that Grotto appears to be dead, and how fast they wrapped up his story.

[Mars477]

The kill/no kill debate and the hypocrisy on both sides is interesting, especially looking at Matt's where he might not kill, but at least one of those bikers is probably permanently, seriously injured. How would he feel if the guy he pulled over the stairs by the chain ended up a paraplegic?

That must have been a length of magic chain, because hitting someone with a very heavy, very fast moving piece of metal in the head sounds like a good way to kill people.

[hincandenza]

Just finished this one, and maybe it's me reading to much into it but didn't Matt find a length of chain with bits of hair and blood on it at one of Punisher's crime scenes earlier (at the warehouse with the meathooks)?

Now in the third episode he's beating bikers with chain after his dialogue with Punisher. At least to me, that seems like clear foreshadowing that we'll have a "DD goes too far/goes hardcore vigilante" plot element at some point.

[Bama]

He found the chain with hair/blood on it at the Irish bar/clubhouse - it was from where the dog was chained up - it was the dog's blood.

 

He used the scent from the dog's blood on the chain to follow the dog's blood and scent trails to find Frank/The Punisher's hide-out.  Frank rescued the dog from the Irish and took him home.

[netlyon2]

^^^Hey, thanks for that explanation! I was too occupied cowering behind a pillow to really follow what he was doing. I don't do well with sudden stuff.

[thuganomics85]

Ha, I knew at some point we were going to be getting a "Oh, you thought that hallway fight from last season was badass?!  You ain't seen nothing yet!" scene, and this episode didn't disappoint.  Loved every moment of it and how Matt used both the chain and taped gun to his advantaged at time.  And, once again, while I'm sure some of the bigger, more dangerous stuff were done by a stunt guy, it looked like Charlie Cox really did a lot of it himself, which I always find impressive.  Although, one thing he's got going for him this season is that the new suit probably allows for a bit more padding.

 

First big Daredevil vs. Punisher conversation, which went the way I was hoping.  I think it did a good job at showing that they both have the same goals in a lot of ways, but the difference is not just the killing vs. no killing, but how they view things.  Matt truly believes that even the worse person has some good of them and deserve a chance at redemption, and that the justice system is needed.  On the other hand, Frank believes that some people are just evil, will keep coming back and doing more horrible things, and sometimes it's better to just end it now, before they kill it.  Both sides have positives and negatives, and find this fascinating, although I still tend to go with Matt, even if he is a bit too idealistic at times.  But the idea of just killing without any consequence is troubling, and Frank playing judge, jury, and executioner is scary.  I can't wait to see how this conflict continues.

 

Claire!  Glad to see her again, and not just because I think Rosario Dawson is one of the most beautiful people in the world.  I loved her brief mentions about what went down with Luke on Jessica Jones, and her interactions with Foggy were fun.  And then there was Foggy being awesome with the whole "talk down the two gangsters" bit.  I really do love that Foggy is a hell of a lawyer, and isn't just the goofy comic relief.

 

Intrigued by Karen taking on Reyes and enlisting her underling to help.  I continue to love that this show has avoided just making her future love interest wallpaper, and give her storylines and conflicts that she handles without the guys.  Really, in general, I like how the entire main trio are stronger and capable in their own ways.

 

I read somewhere that they find a fun way to show The Punisher symbol, and Frank's X-rays was certainly a good way to do it.

Edited March 20, 2016 by thuganomics85

[driedfruit]

I wish I rewatched season 1 before watching this season, because I don't know whether I like Fisk more, or if I like Frank/Punisher. I honestly LOVED the Matt/Punisher interactions. I haven't seen the rest of the season yet, but I thought this was a very strong episode because of them. I think that both are wrong and right, which is nice. While Fisk was mostly just plain wrong, Punisher's reasons for doing what he does is entirely relateable. I know I've had thoughts about what if we could just finish the bad guys once and for all, and it comes into question the morality aspect of killing or not. I wasn't even sure how Daredevil/Punisher's interactions would work, as I've never read the comics so I wouldn't understand how it would work. Luckily, this just really made me enjoy Punisher and made me understand him really well. So yeah, as of right now, until I rewatch season 1 and until I finish this season, I'm going with Punisher as the better of the two villains thus far. Plus, I think he will get Matt to see that sometimes, it's actually ok to do what's best which might be to kill. Again, I don't know much about the comics or how the rest of the season is going to go, so we'll see.

 

Punisher isn't so much a villain as an anti-hero. But otherwise, yes, this interaction worked incredibly well. 

[diebartdie]

The kill/no kill debate and the hypocrisy on both sides is interesting, especially looking at Matt's where he might not kill, but at least one of those bikers is probably permanently, seriously injured. How would he feel if the guy he pulled over the stairs by the chain ended up a paraplegic?

 

 

That must have been a length of magic chain, because hitting someone with a very heavy, very fast moving piece of metal in the head sounds like a good way to kill people.

See I think Matt has already killed, he just doesnt realize it yet and so far he has not deliberately killed anyone. You know what though, he does have it in him to do so, he admitted as much to Claire last season. ALSO, at the beginning of this hallway/stairwell fight, there is a very quick, close up shot of Matt pulling the trigger on that gun and sort of almost snickering when it didnt fire due to no more bullets.

[JustaPerson]

I think that was because he was using it to threaten that first guy and get him to drop his weapon so then he was like *click* "it didn't have any bullets ya losers!" 

Edited March 20, 2016 by JustaPerson

[xaxat]

Rosario Dawson could create chemistry working with a piece of toast.

 

I'm going to be shipping her with everyone she comes across in the Netflix/Marvel universe.

[ulkis]

So is anyone thinking that the nun was

Matt's mom? I was disappointed to find out the graphic novels didn't follow up on that so I hope the show does

Edited March 21, 2016 by ulkis

[GHScorpiosRule]

So is anyone thinkimg that the nun was

Matt's mom? I was disappointed to find out the graphic novels didn't follow up on that so I hope the show does

No. Because we know Matt was sent to an orphanage after his father was killed. I just figured that sort of flashback was him there and was sick, hence the cloth dipped in water.

[Primetimer]

...and I wish I were being used in almost any other capacity, because it was a busy night for me.

Read the story

[The Crazed Spruce]

So is anyone thinkimg that the nun was

Matt's mom? I was disappointed to find out the graphic novels didn't follow up on that so I hope the show does

That was my take on it, too.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So is anyone thinkimg that the nun was

Matt's mom? I was disappointed to find out the graphic novels didn't follow up on that so I hope the show does

 

 

 

No. Because we know Matt was sent to an orphanage after his father was killed. I just figured that sort of flashback was him there and was sick, hence the cloth dipped in water.

 

Quoting this again and myself, because I stand corrected. 

Apparently, and this is more recent, I don't know how recent, I was informed that according to Mark Waid,

 

What happened was that she gave birth to Matt and then suffered severe post-partum depression. So much so, that she attacked Matt when he was a baby. Jack protected Matt but wound up popping her in the face as he did... she was horrified, ashamed and took off and disappeared. As Waid wrote it...this was at a time where they didn't really know what PPD was or how to treat it.

 

When she evened out she was still horrified by what she had done and committed herself to God to atone for her perceived sins.

 

Source: Dandesun! Thanks for correcting me.

 

So it is possible that's who the nun was.

Edited March 21, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[weightyghost]

I haven't been able to watch the show until this week and my plan is to watch it all this weekend, but may have to take a break after this episode. Lord that fight was exhausting.

[AudienceofOne]

I will not kill... two minutes later wraps a bike chain around a guy's neck and drags him over a balcony to snap his neck on the stairs below.

 

Um, yeah, ok. And I think that was Frank's entire purpose of this scenario. To put him in a scenario where he had to fight for his life and really hurt people. I still agree with D though, Frank is nuts. And murdering criminals for being criminals does not make less criminals - it makes more. But it was still really well done.

 

I was very interested by the image of our "Hero" tied up for the whole episode while Foggy and Karen were out getting kicking ass and taking names. Very interesting contrast for episode 3.

[RustbeltWriter]

This was a perfect episode. We got a great debate, Matt's moral quandary of whether to shoot Frank or not and that fantastic fight down the stairwell.

[Eneya]

Scary thing is... I am kind of with Frank on the topic... to some extent anyway.

[Kalliste]

I think that was because he was using it to threaten that first guy and get him to drop his weapon so then he was like *click* "it didn't have any bullets ya losers!" 

I thought of it like this too. Not that he pulled the trigger to kill any of them.

 

I heard a lot of great feedback about this episode in particular but I didn't find it overly interesting. I did like the Frank and DD conversations but that was really it. The fight scene went far too long and was very video game-esque in style. It was basically wave after wave of 'baddies' .

 

I have to say that so far this season hasn't hooked me in. Here's hoping it gets more interesting.

[marceline]

I will not kill... two minutes later wraps a bike chain around a guy's neck and drags him over a balcony to snap his neck on the stairs below.

 

Right? When Matt said he never killed anyone, I thought, "I'm pretty sure you have."

[maczero]

BTW, the scene between Daredevil and Punisher on the rooftop was more or less taken from an issue of The Punisher written by Garth Ennis. (Though in the comic,

the gun wasn't loaded, and Daredevil actually tried to shoot The Punisher

. I actually prefer the way it played out on the show. Seems truer to the character.)

I would've preferred if the gun wasn't loaded.  Frank may have a death wish but he isn't suicidal.  The Punisher that I'm familiar with wouldn't have taken the chance that DD wouldn't have pulled the trigger.  Ennis's story proves Daredevil  is a hypocrite without Punisher betting his life on it.

 

I'm confused how Reyes thinks she can blame a botched police sting on a private law firm.  Can someone clear this up for me?

[Kel Varnsen]

Right? When Matt said he never killed anyone, I thought, "I'm pretty sure you have."

I kind of wish Matt would use his lawyer brain and realize that not all killings are the same and a pre-meditated murder is not the same as a justifiable homicide, or killing someone by accident in a fight defending yourself.

[Bec]

I thought "it doesn't count as murder unless it's premeditated" is the rule Matt has been going with this whole time, that it's where he draws the line. I figured this is why he could still say he never killed anyone when Foggy asked him last season if he ever killed anyone. And why he doesn't ever seem to worry he might break someone's neck when he's in the middle of a melee.