S05.E14: Devil's Due

[Shanna Marie]

Except he didn't know the baby was in any danger at that point. He just wanted to go home to the little woman right now. It wouldn't have been difficult to not kill Milah. He could have just kept her frozen, destroyed the boat and then given her a magical memory wipe. He consigned her to being a mindless tortured husk for all eternity because he's an asshole. There is no redemption there. He's not human. A baby won't fix that.

I agree. But TS;TW.

 

Though I think he did worry about the baby, given that at the revelation he dropped the crystal ball. That wasn't just a "yay, I'm a dad again" reaction. He knows enough about contracts that he may have feared for this kid, and so he'd have wanted to be nearby to deal with any threats.

 

The way he's treated Milah has been the worst kind of abusive nonsense, that attitude that the worst crime ever was to leave him, and like he owns her even after she left him. I noticed that he referred to her as his "ex" rather than his late wife or "first" wife, which implies that he considered their marriage over even before he killed her.

[Rumsy4]

I was flummoxed  when Robin offered his condolences over Milah to Rumple of all people. Does he know Rumple murdered her the first time? Unless I misheard that line. I need to rewatch the episode. 

[satrunrose]

I quite liked this one. One thing I will give the writers etc. credit for is that while they set up these big melodramatic beats, like Hook having to choose 3 people to stay, or lying to Emma to protect her in past seasons, they mostly have Hook react like a decent human being/partner and refuse to do evil thing x or keep horrible secret Y and then move right along. 

 

I also really like Hades. He has a smoothness combined with a real sense that he is a threat (Like my favourite villains, Pan and Ingrid) and he isn't just running around with a massively convoluted scenery-chewing mwahaha plot to... well, we're not really sure by the end (see Arthur, the Queens of Darkness and Zelena).

 

I loved the Dante shout-out and I think Hades' hope thing works fairly reasonably well so far. It ties in with Greek mythology through Pandora's box and it shows the growth of Emma as a character because hope is her thing now when it used to be something her parents had but she mostly rejected in the first season. 

 

I thought the question of selling baby #2 was an interesting one and while I tend to lean to Rumple's side (better to save the kid you have and be happy with that), I can also get why Milah was angry enough to run off and join the pirates (Yummy, yummy pirates!). I also enjoyed what was, for me, an unexpected twist that the healer wanted to make a deal. I thought they were going with something like the witch (fairy?) at the beginning of Beauty and the Beast and Rumple would be rewarded for not killing the guy by getting the antidote. This was more interesting for sure. You know what they say about Karma, eh Rumps?

Edited March 22, 2016 by satrunrose

[legaleagle53]

It's not from a comedy, it's from the book The Divine Comedy (which is not a comedy; it's an epic poem from the 14th century). The original line, as written by Dante Alighieri, is "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch' intrate.". It's also known as "Dante's Inferno" by Hollywood scriptwriters who can't do basic research. It features some Greek characters (like Cerberus!) but it's a Christian story (the unbaptized and non-Christians are in Limbo - but a Pope is in Hell!).

 

There's a reason for that, by the way, but I think it's better discussed in the Other Fairy Tales thread so as not to go too far off-topic here.

[KingOfHearts]

Just when you thought the show couldn't get more soap opera after Zarian, Belle is having a baby. Joy. I hate how it's more about Rumple than its about her.

Edited March 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

Re: Why make Hook chose...

I think Rumple and Hades like to put good people in impossible situations where they will have to compromise their values. Rumple does it to feel better about himself. He can tell himself that the good aren't really good and deserved what they got ignoring that he took all the good options away and often created the impossible situation himself.

Hades wants to break people and he does it by making them compromise and hate themselves for it.

I have no sympathy for Belle. She deserves to be on the bad end of a deal, so she can learn some empathy.

[Camera One]

OuAT Twitter posted the caption "She's back, #EvilRegals!", with that clip of Mary Margaret asking Regina what she's doing as we see her grinning maniacally looking at that fireball.

 

That scene with the facial expression makes it seem like The Evil Queen had returned or something.  It didn't help that Mary Margaret was looking at her and delivered the line as if Regina was clinically insane.  It just didn't fit into the episode at all.  So she could only get her magic back after knowing Daniel was in a better place?  It's times like these when I wonder if this scene, and the horse one, was written before the rest of the episode and A&E&J had to jam them into the episode no matter what.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Camera One

[AudienceofOne]

Oddly enough, I was with Rumple until he dumped Milah into the drink. I don't even completely hate him agreeing to sell his second born. If I were in the position of sacrificing a child who doesn't exist and may never exist in exchange for saving a child that is on the verge of death without killing someone...I would probably do it. It was shitty of him to take Milah's choice in the matter away, but I don't know if he had time to consult her. Honestly, she kind of bugged with her pushing him to kill the healer. If she thought that was the best option, she should have done it herself.

 

I'm with you. Rumple was a coward (I know because they've told me so) but Milah was selfish. She wanted an easy life where she didn't have to work so hard for the things she wanted. That's not as judgemental as it sounds - if I was stuck in poverty with Rumple and a demanding kid I'd probably be more selfish than I'd like as well. I like that the show brought that out in her and that it also provided her with her unresolved issues. She regretted her selfishness and wanted to make it up to the son that she abandoned.

 

So ordering your husband to murder somebody and then hating him for finding a third way that saves their son's life was a perfect way to demonstrate exactly what was wrong with their marriage and why she'd be attracted to Killian but also her own personality flaws that she was trying to overcome.

 

And it was the best part of what I felt was a mediocre episode. I felt a bit let down by Emma and Hook's reunion and by his rescue. But I'm starting to think the reason Hardes was torturing Hook was recruitment - he wanted to see if he could force Hook to betray the people he cares about. When he realised Hook wouldn't, he switched targets to Rumple. Now we just need a reason why Hades needs to recruit. Which could be far more interesting than where I thought they were going with this plotline.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't even completely hate him agreeing to sell his second born. If I were in the position of sacrificing a child who doesn't exist and may never exist in exchange for saving a child that is on the verge of death without killing someone...I would probably do it. It was shitty of him to take Milah's choice in the matter away, but I don't know if he had time to consult her.

 

I can see both sides on the selling the non-existent child thing because he did save their son, but Milah had every right to be pissed. However, he totally and completely fucked Belle over with his inability to use proper birth control. Does Belle know that any child she has with him has been sold? Rumpel's complete horror when he figured out Belle was pregnant said that he was well aware that contract could still be used to take his child. If it was not a good thing to do to his first wife when it was her child they were saving, what does it say that he's now inflicted this problem on his second wife? That his lack of care means he's bringing a child into this world to pay his debt? Countless people have suffered and/or died because Rumpel sucked as a father to Bae and now at least one person is suffering endless torment because of his second. This child is not redemption. Going all out and not caring who gets hurt in his mission to protect his child is not acceptable or sweet or redemptive. It's evil. 

[dr pepper]

"River of Lost Souls"? Why not use the real name "Lethe: River of Forgetting".

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Hades is a great villain, but they should stop with the blue hair. It's awful.

I'm still trying to understand why his hair turns blue sometimes. Like does it signify he's about to do something eeeeeeevil? Or that hell just got a little colder?

 

I also don't understand why Hades needs to have so many people in the underworld. Is it like Monsters, Inc where he needs their emotions to power his world? Or is it a compulsion like wanting to see your bookshelves full without any gaps where you could fit more books?

[legaleagle53]

I'm still trying to understand why his hair turns blue sometimes. Like does it signify he's about to do something eeeeeeevil? Or that hell just got a little colder?

 

I also don't understand why Hades needs to have so many people in the underworld. Is it like Monsters, Inc where he needs their emotions to power his world? Or is it a compulsion like wanting to see your bookshelves full without any gaps where you could fit more books?

 

Hades is King of the Underworld.  You'd be anxious to get as many new subjects as possible, too, if the old ones kept leaving, and you'd be something of a control freak about it as well.  Otherwise, you'd be out of a job in short order!

Edited March 22, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Panopticon]

 

• Emma and Hook somehow managing to cross that balance beam, even with Hook's crazy injured condition

 

That distracted me for the last 20 minutes of the episode. I assumed that it was going to be a plot point-- she can't use magic lest she summon Hades, she can't carry him, she can't sling his arm over her shoulders to walk the beam, he can barely stand up let alone hold his balance perfectly for long enough to cross.

 

And then... they just appeared back where she'd left the boat. Kind of anticlimactic.

 

Shame on me for underestimating Hook's awesome, I guess?

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, the flaming hair on Hades looks really silly, and they need to either find a better effect, or just drop it. Show, its just sad. 

 

Also, is Regina back sliding into evil again? That is kind of the impression I got from her getting her fireball powers back, and grinning maniacally. I really hope that. Not because I am all invested in the story of Regina, but my GOD would that be pointless. Regina goes back to evil! Because...reasons! For the 10th time! But that would be lame, even by this shows standards. So hopefully we will not have to watch "Regina turns bad then turns good again, all for reasons no one can comprehend" again.

 

Although, weird evil moment aside, and this shows obsession with showing her murdering innocent people in flashbacks, Regina has been ok this season. Not quite as "sassy", and has actually had interactions with people that seem normal. I guess to make up for the increasing evil of Rumple. 

[Rumsy4]

"River of Lost Souls"? Why not use the real name "Lethe: River of Forgetting".

Well the Lethe is not supposed to have mindless souls swimming around in it. I guess they decided to stick with fhe Disney movie for added "drama". Losing your memory is not as terrible as losing your mind.

[Notwisconsin]

So we now have Chekov's pistol in Henry's pen. Great.

[Camera One]

Yeah, there has been no rhyme or reason for when the hair suddenly turns blue.  If they want to use that effect, there should be some trigger for it.  

 

 

I think the reason Rumpelstiltskin freaked out was because she was eating at Granny's . We already saw what those onion rings did to Zelina and her pregnancy . 

 

Since we saw that scene before we knew the context, I thought it was because she was eating at Granny's too.  "Those hashbrowns and the cholesterol!".  Or I thought it might be choice of friends.  "She's eating with Leroy!"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Heh, I originally interpreted that scene with Gold thinking, "Leroy? THAT guy? Come on!"

Edited March 22, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Bishop]

"You're impossible." "And you love me for it." Aww.

I thought the reunion scene with CS was too short, but they certainly made the most of it.  That is the most vulnerable I've ever seen Hook - battered, bruised and exhausted.  I loved him just collapsing against her because I've never seen the character like that before and yet he's still Killian Jones underneath.

 

Rumple, there were five million other ways to destroy the boat without killing Milah. Again. 

I don't think Rumple meant to condemn her to the Lost Souls  She was shouting Emma's name to warn her that she saw Rumple with Hades, and he reacted to stop her.  I saw both anguish on his face of "What did you make me do?!" to accepting his decision afterwards because her silence ultimately trumped his grief.

 

The CaptainSwan reunion was too short. Honestly, I think they went way too dark with his condition. I can't believe that kids would be allowed to watch it.

I didn't mind Hook's condition.  It just made the Underworld feel much more dangerous than just a romp to another realm ala Neverland.  THIS place feels much more threatening because of what Hades did to Hook.  I actually loved the drama of it all.

 I can understand Emma buying it, but Killian should have been all over that shit. Especially since he just told Rumple about how he knew he tricked him, so why wouldn't he also think the Milah situation was fishy?

I think Killian bought Rumple's story because he had JUST been a victim of Hades for weeks - being beaten and tortured.  So why wouldn't he believe that he would doom Milah to the River of Lost Souls when Hades must know that Milah was Hook's previous love and was there to rescue him.  Throw in that Killian was in pain and exhausted, his usual "You're lying, crocodile," was not on his radar.  Also, in Hook's mind, why would Gold go through the trouble of rescuing him just to kill Milah?  jmo

 

I don't get the Hook torture either. Are we to believe that everyone there has gone through that, I would think Milah would've been a lot more afraid if that was the case. Please writers, explain why he's been tortured!

Hades explained it - finally.  He explained that Hook was refusing to do what he was told and more importantly, continued to have hope despite everything Hades was doing to him to break him.  I'm guessing the torture started when Hook first arrived because he wouldn't do whatever Hades wanted.  We've seen Hook consistently be snarky with Hades, despite the abuse.  THEN his friends come to rescue him, which Hades must have known about the minute Gold summoned the boat.  I'm guessing that's when Hades really started to have Hook beaten because Hook was bringing people down to rescue him, which Hades admitted he didn't initially like.  Then Hook realized that Emma was there when she summoned him to his grave, which gave them both hope - further fueling Hades anger.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Bishop

[YaddaYadda]

Does Belle know that any child she has with him has been sold? Rumpel's complete horror when he figured out Belle was pregnant said that he was well aware that contract could still be used to take his child. If it was not a good thing to do to his first wife when it was her child they were saving, what does it say that he's now inflicted this problem on his second wife? That his lack of care means he's bringing a child into this world to pay his debt? Countless people have suffered and/or died because Rumpel sucked as a father to Bae and now at least one person is suffering endless torment because of his second. This child is not redemption. Going all out and not caring who gets hurt in his mission to protect his child is not acceptable or sweet or redemptive. It's evil. 

 

Of course Belle doesn't, because Rumple thought the contract was voided the moment he killed the Healer.

 

But there's an important distinction to make regarding Rumple.

 

When he found out Belle was pregnant, he had no idea the contract was still valid. Hades didn't know either, it's after Rumple left that he started looking into it.

 

Rumple had the exact same reaction when he found out Belle was pregnant from the crystal ball that he had when the Seer told him he was going to be a father. He wanted to go home, and that's the reason he decided to be helpful with finding Killian (I decided to start calling him Killian).

 

The contact came into play when Hades told Rumple that Fendrake had signed it over to him, and that the second child clause was very much valid.

 

Rumple burning the boat, and throwing Milah in the River of Lost Souls is like him maiming himself when the Seer told him that his child would be fatherless. And since Rumple has no clue how long he will be in the UW, then what he did when Hades told him he could go home got the same reaction out of him. He started out in a good place with Hades, like he was with the Seer, about how he wouldn't do this or that, but in the end it's the other thing that won out.

 

He burned the boat and Milah shouted Emma's name afterwards. He was always going to send her in the river. 

 

I'm tired of this whole a child is someone's redemption. Why don't these people put their big boy pants and just I don't know, strive to be their best selves? It's not like it can't be done.

Edited March 22, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Anakerie]

Hey, if I were Hades I'd want to get my hands on the Rumplette too.  It'll be both evil and (to quote Sheldon's mother) 'dumb as soup'.  In short, all the qualifications for a perfect minion. Those are hard to come by. 

[dr pepper]

 

anguish on his face of "What did you make me do?!"

 

 

Again!

[dr pepper]

Suggestion: even though he's seemingly solid, Killian in the underworld is a spirit. Leaving there would mean he gets a new body. It would be a great opportunity to give him both hands again. and they could just stop calling him Hook.

[KAOS Agent]

"River of Lost Souls"? Why not use the real name "Lethe: River of Forgetting".

 

The Lethe is one of the other rivers flowing out of that cave. Some people on tumblr got very involved in identifying the rivers and some of them are labelled onscreen.

 

The confirmed ones are:

 

Styx = Blue

Cocytus = Grey

Lethe = Gold

 

It's been assumed that the Acheron was replaced by the River of Lost Souls (for Hercules movie parallels) and that the red one is Phlegethon since that's the river of fire.

Edited March 23, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Jul 68]

I thought that the Abandon All Hope thing was a shout out to the Disney ride Pirates of the Caribbean. Maybe my Floridian is showing on that one.

[PixiePaws1]

I'm beginning to wonder if something has happened to limit Hades' powers. He hasn't done anything particularly impressively magic-wise. I wonder if he has limits on what he can actually do to a non-dead person. He didn't want Emma &Co there..if he can really send them home (like he promised to do for Rumple)...why didn't he just do it and get rid of the pesky live people with a hand wave? How demoralising for them to get 2 feet in UnderBrooke and wham....right back where they started and this time without a Rumple to open the way again. Makes them depressed and Hook has no hope of rescue. I know he likes to give the impression he likes to make souls suffer ..but I don't know...seems like something else going on there

[darkestboy]

That's it. Hades is definitely the best villain since Ingrid and he's genuinely menacing as hell. I love that he got the better of Rumple in this episode.

 

That being said, Rumple's action permanently did in Milah and have doomed Belle too. I actually am wondering if they're going to go as far as to get rid of him as well.

 

Milah was better served in this episode and I actually felt bad for her in flashbacks and Underbrooke too. She did not deserve that fate.

 

Hook and Emma, nice enough scenes between the two of them.

 

I liked Regina's scenes with Snow and Cruella in this one, 8/10

[Mathius]

The Lethe is one of the other rivers flowing out of that cave. Some people on tumblr got very involved in identifying the rivers and some of them are labelled onscreen.

 

The confirmed ones are:

 

Styx = Blue

Cocytus = Grey

Lethe = Gold

 

It's been assumed that the Acheron was replaced by the River of Lost Souls (for Hercules movie parallels) and that the red one is Phlegethon since that's the river of fire.

 

Acheron was basically the same thing, causing a soul to be carried along endlessly if it falls out of the boat.

 

Styx brought invulnerability, Cocytus depression, Lethe amnesia, and Phlegethon physical torment.

 

The confusing thing here is that Acheron in this show also seems to cause the Lethe effect, so Lethe is kind of redundant.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

After a partial rewatch last night (the interesting parts, ff-ing through Regina getting closure with everything including the horse), some thoughts.

 

First, Emma's white sweater must have magical stain-resisting properties. Hook is literally dripping blood, and yet she manages to hang onto him to pull him down from the chains, hugs him, and supports him walking out of the caves, and there isn't a spot on her. I noticed that when they were holding hands to get into the caverns from the house, she was wearing black gloves, but when she got out of the boat the gloves were off and she was holding Hook's/Liam's ring. She mentioned that she could feel him -- locator magic associated with the ring? Though she wasn't supposed to be using magic. Her love is that strong? Maybe the ring really is magic and what kept him alive all that time. It'll be like the Wizard of Oz, where they'll go through all this trouble, and Emma had the thing that would easily bring him back to life with her all along.

 

Rewatching, I suspect that Milah comes across far worse on paper and it's Rachel Shelley's performance that makes her even a little bit sympathetic. She has a way of conveying vulnerability and pain beneath that bitter, brittle exterior. There's a sense that this is someone who's watched every hope or dream she had be shattered, and then there are moments when that hope comes back to life. Her face seems to lose ten years when Killian kisses her hand in the tavern. In Underbrooke, she's so hard and cold when Rumple first approaches her, but the moment he mentions Killian, she visibly softens. There's a similar effect after Emma tells her about Neal.

 

I wonder if her extreme reaction to Rumple's news about how he got the potion had to do with the way he presented it. He was so gleeful, like "I'm so clever, I solved all our problems, win-win, go, me!" in telling her they can never have another child. That must have been like a slap in the face. It's possible that if he'd been more downcast, acknowledging that it was a terrible bargain to make but that it was the cost of saving their existing child's life, she would have reacted differently. As it was, he was crowing over something that affected her future and didn't seem to understand why it would bother her.

 

There was also the repetition of the "you never change" refrain about him. It's funny how often he uses the accusation of "selfish" when that seems to be his real problem. In the past, it wasn't quite as malignant. He'd apparently promised to help with the chores and didn't because he was to busy playing. Now it's that he'll let everyone else die to get what he wants. But that was probably part of Milah's bitterness, that he was playing fun dad and leaving her to do all the work, so it was like she was raising two children. The fact that he was so focused on Bae (and she even admitted that was something he was good at) may have been how she rationalized leaving the way she did.

[Camera One]

He was so gleeful, like "I'm so clever, I solved all our problems, win-win, go, me!" in telling her they can never have another child.

 

That seemed really weird to me, like he was the village idiot or something.   I get that he's happy he saved Bae but that seemed over-the-top to me.

 

Jane said her favorite scene was Rumple and Milah in the boat, and Eddy had "a very specific tone in mind" for that scene.  So I do think the Writers did have intent to make Milah sympathetic, or else Rumple throwing her overboard would have zero effect.  In the grand scheme of things, the flashbacks made Milah's actions more understandable, though the predominant "winner" in the flashback retcon was Hook.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I suspect that Milah comes across far worse on paper and it's Rachel Shelley's performance that makes her even a little bit sympathetic. She has a way of conveying vulnerability and pain beneath that bitter, brittle exterior.

 

Milah never really got a point of view until now and I think it did show a better picture of what was going on in the Stiltskin household and why she made the choices she made. It helped a lot to have confirmation that she was really torn up about having left her son. One thing I've always found confusing is when people scream about what a bitch she was and how horribly she treated Rumpel, but then get indignant that she dared to leave him. If they are both so damn unhappy with each other and she's the one who's so terrible and abusive, then isn't it a good thing that she's gone? Yes, Bae was sad that his mom died, but shouldn't Rumpel be relieved and happier not to be dealing with Milah's complaints? Why the hell would you want someone like that near a character you like? Staying together because of the child isn't a good idea either. They were too busy fighting to notice that their idiot son was off playing with a poisonous snake. I just don't understand the thinking.

[Camera One]

Rumple didn't seem at all offended by Milah's tone of voice with him.  He seemed like he was content from the way they showed it in this episode.

[Dianthus]

I've been thinking about that too. would it really be that much better for Bae if Milah stayed, sinking deeper and deeper into a morass of bitterness and depression? I don't think so. I think Milah made the best she could of a bad situation. As far as she knew, she was leaving Bae with a loving father who'd provide him with a stable home. She was taking a big chance with the handsome stranger she met in a tavern. Ironically, Bae might've been better off if she had taken him with her. He'd be with his mom, who's happier than he's ever seen her, while learning about sailing and fighting and seeing the world. Of course, if she'd done that, some folks would still be branding her as selfish for putting him in danger and leaving poor woobie Rumple all by his lonesome. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

[profdanglais]

Dianthus I agree with this completely. I've always had sympathy for Milah. Even though she was kind of unpleasant in The Crocodile, I also have a tendency to get nasty when I feel trapped and frustrated, so I feel her pain. If she had stayed, her unhappiness would have continued to poison her marriage, and it would have affected Baelfire as well. Kids know when their parents aren't happy. It was a terrible situation with no good solutions, but I think Milah probably felt she was doing what was best for Bae by leaving him with the father who loved him rather than trying to convince a pirate captain she barely knew to let her take her very young son along with her on his ship. 

[YaddaYadda]

If she had stayed, her unhappiness would have continued to poison her marriage, and it would have affected Baelfire as well. Kids know when their parents aren't happy.

 

It was already affecting him. I thought the show did good in showing that. After Milah started snipping at Rumple, and voices started to raise, they showed him roll his eyes at them, and leave them to argue, and went to pat that poisonous snake instead.

 

Who knows how far things were going to go if she hadn't left. 

[Randomosity]

So. Emma's crib and stuffed animals lurking in the cobwebs at her Underbrooke house. I can't quite figure it, and I am not even a teensy bit spoiled, so odds are I won't figure it out. But...

 

Can things have unfinished business like people do? I mean, it never got used, so that could certainly be unfinished business. But how would that get rectified? Emma certainly can't snuggle up in it with the Charmings doting over her under the mobile. ...but could Emma still put it to use with a child of her own?

 

Could she be knocked up from her excursion with Killian to the field of flowers in Camelot? It would be odd given that Belle is now preggers too, and maybe there's other symbolism that the crib was meant to convey that I'm totally missing. But they could certainly complicate things with a CaptainSwan baby, especially if there is a chance that Killian leaves Emma, as the promo for the next ep hinted - that would throw in a whole other level to Emma's issues with abandonment, which would then be her future kid also being abandoned by its dad. Throw in the fact that it could be a dark/evil baby if conceived with mom as a dark one... Who knows. Just some random thoughts after still being puzzled by the crib on the second watch of the episode.

[Shanna Marie]

Milah never really got a point of view until now and I think it did show a better picture of what was going on in the Stiltskin household and why she made the choices she made.

I thought we got at least a bit of her side of things back in "The Crocodile" when she begged him to move to a different place. I found her far more sympathetic than him at that point, even if she'd been shrewish in other scenes and they were playing up him as victim against Killian. She made one last stab at trying to salvage their marriage, and her husband wasn't willing to give an inch. When you add the fact that he gleefully gave up any chance of having another child, it makes that even worse. Even if he gave up the second-born child with the best of intentions, he just kept narrowing and limiting her options in life. Things probably wouldn't have gone very well if she'd stayed. Her bitterness might also have ended up alienating her son. I'm not sure that her still being around would have kept Rumple from becoming the Dark One, and just imagine what would have happened if she'd sassed him then. At least Bae wasn't around to see his father murder his mother the way it worked out.

 

And while it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, she probably chose the lesser of two evils in leaving Bae behind. A pirate ship wasn't a great place for a small child (especially one dumb enough to try to pet a snake), and Rumple appeared to be the primary caregiver for Bae. Even Milah admitted that this was something he was good at. If Bae's relationship with his father was closer and that was the one thing that Rumple seemed to even try to do, then taking him away from his father would have been even crueler than leaving him.

 

As for the nursery furniture, the furniture may not need to be saved. The Underworld seems to be a place of regrets and losses, and all of Emma's nursery stuff represents regrets and losses. The unused nursery stuff represents a part of her life that she can never get back. I don't know that it's anything that would relate to her being able to move on, but if she died and ended up in the Underworld, it would be part of her torture in being there.

[Mari]

Plus, while hindsight says that Hook honestly cared for Milah and would have likely cared for Baelfire, that's hindsight.

She was taking a huge risk. It would have been irresponsible to take that huge risk with her son, too. She could have come back and collected or visited him, but for all of his faults, preDark One Rumple was a dedicated father. It would seem like crazy talk to the earlier Milah if you explained what Rumple would end up doing and becoming; this was a man who wouldn't even move to another village.

As for the nursery furniture? It tortures Emma, but should also be there to torture Snow and David. It's not just representative of what Emma's lost and can't recover, but the Charmings as well.

Plus, newly redeemed, conscience-having, and all around amazingly reformed Regina would also feel guilty by its presence continually reminding her what she did to her besties.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Plus, newly redeemed, conscience-having, and all around amazingly reformed Regina would also feel guilty by its presence continually reminding her what she did to her besties.

 

Doesn't matter because they found her. I mean it was 28 years later, but they FOUND her (she technically found them, but whatever). Move on, Mari! Move on!

[Rumsy4]

Did my rewatch of the episode. Still good.

 

The moment when Killian found out about Milah's fate was when he seriously started losing all hope, I think. Until then, as Hades said, he was managing to hold on to a sliver of hope. That was followed by the discovery of Emma, Snow, and Regina's names were carved in the gravestones by Hades. Colin is amazing. He managed to show a person who has been tortured and broken, and is feeling the effects. He was trembling slightly and looked in a lot of physical and emotional pain. Kudos to his acting! 

 

I just noticed that Hades was reading Faust when Rumple came to see him in the final scene. That was a genius touch. lol

[Dianthus]

I forgot to mention one of my favorite things about this ep. It's a small thing, when Killian tells Milah of ports where the air smells like spices. I frequent an Indian restaurant called Taj Palace, and it always smells so good to me. They blew a perfectly good opportunity to use the word 'redolent' though. I miss the vocabulary porn.

[Rumsy4]

That line reminded me of Colonel Brandon in the Sense and Sensibility movie (RIP Alan Rickman) saying "The air is full of spices..."

[Shanna Marie]

He managed to show a person who has been tortured and broken, and is feeling the effects. He was trembling slightly and looked in a lot of physical and emotional pain. Kudos to his acting!

I just hope all this isn't totally forgotten after this arc. Not that I want Hook to be a full-time PTSD mess, but he should be a changed person after dying, being the Dark One, dying for real, and then being tortured by Hades. I know Colin's capable of pulling it off in just the subtext of his performance, but that only works if the script isn't directly contradicting it by hitting a total reset button.

 

It's a small thing, when Killian tells Milah of ports where the air smells like spices.

That's an interesting sensory detail, and perhaps says something about him that this is what he chose to tell her about. I live in Little India, so that was nice and vivid for me. When I go on walks, I can smell all the various things being cooked by my neighbors, and the air really does smell like spices.

 

The more details they add about past Rumple and his relationship with Milah, the more he comes across as a jerk in the present. A wife he didn't seem to care much about and for whom he was willing to do nothing to help her be happy leaves him for another man but leaves their son with him, and he feels so wronged that he murders her and cuts off the hand of the other man -- and he still acts to the other man like he's the victim who has been horribly wronged.

 

Also, Killian leaving Milah in the tavern after learning she was married gives a new shade on what he told Belle about her begging him to take her with him. Did she actually have to beg and convince him that she really wanted to leave her husband? Because in the newest flashback, it looked like he wasn't interested while she was talking about being married. And that also makes Rumple's claims about him stealing his wife even worse.

[Dianthus]

I never felt like Killian "stole" Milah away from Rumple. It's an insult to her (IMO), like she belonged to Rumple, or she was just weak to fall for a pretty face. She was done with Rumple, so she left him. Guys do it all the time. I think Killian admired her for having the courage it took to leave her home and her family and take a chance on trusting him.

[KAOS Agent]

This half season seems to be less heavy handed with the theme words than previously and I am thankful for it. However, that doesn't mean that they've abandoned things completely. For this episode, we had two mentions of "unfinished business" putting the total for the half season at 11. 

 

It was suggested that I count the "hope" mentions for the season too. This one is a little trickier since hope is used in regular language like Emma saying that she hoped the boat didn't spring a leak.  Previous episodes each used hope once as a noun rather than casual verb usage. In the hope themed discussions this week, it was used three times. Although it was declared contraband by Hades, so perhaps our heroes should continue to use it sparingly so as to keep things on the down low, which all 45 of them are so excellent at doing.

[Camera One]

I'm glad they're not repeating "unfinished business" too much even though that's their theme.

 

Other random words...

 

"Dead" has been used 4, 5 and 9 times in the 3 episodes so far, though sometimes also used normally like "that's a dead end".

"Happy" was used a whopping 10 times in the first episode, though sometimes normally like "Happy birthday".  It was used 3 times in "Devil's Due".  Snow's centric got no happys.

[babyPhat279]

So, are the people in the Underworld supposed to have some ability to look in on the living? Cruella seemed to have an idea of stuff that happened after she died, that Henry broke the quill/pen/stylus. So if that's the case, wouldn't Milah already have some sense of who Emma was?

 

Also, yeah I was wondering about Hook and Emma re-crossing that beam. How convenient we just cut to them afterwards. I guess it wasn't really that hard?

[Camera One]

So, are the people in the Underworld supposed to have some ability to look in on the living? Cruella seemed to have an idea of stuff that happened after she died, that Henry broke the quill/pen/stylus. So if that's the case, wouldn't Milah already have some sense of who Emma was?

 

As usual, that aspect of worldbuilding is sorely lacking.  Though one might fanwank that Cruella, being the meddlesome troublemaker newcomer she is, would have tried to find out what is happening in the world above, whereas Milah might not have bothered.

 

Cruella did make it sound like many people were talking about the Pen entering their realm.  Now I'm imagining the Pen walking off the boat.  

[Chaos Theory]

That's why I wish I knew what they wanted us to think. There was a lot of "poor woobie Rumple," but then Rumple threw Milah into the River of Souls and screwed over the others, and we also saw him go back and kill the healer. I can handle ambiguity, but this show has a bad tendency to show us something and then give the totally opposite impression in how we should view it, or else to show something that looks ambiguous and later make it out to be as though it was clear-cut. I could imagine this show justifying what he did to Milah out of concern for his unborn child, as surely an unborn, living child takes priority over a woman who's already dead. He's just being a good father, like he was when he made the deal in the first place.

But given everything else he's done, it's hard to drum up that much sympathy.

When it comes to Rumple I think the show has been hammering in he was "born this way."

I hate hate hate hate the term woobie and refuse to use it because it comes down to the short form of character I want to and already hate that show wants me to not hate. That's the shows job in a way. With Tumple he has had brief moments when it looks like the show is going the redemptive route like they have been and continue to go with Regina but every time he comes close he takes the selfish and coward way out. If this episode did anything it showed that Rumple wasn't just a coward he was was a selfish one and always has been.

[KingOfHearts]

Cruella could have interrogated the Apprentice if he had arrived in the Underworld, perhaps. Or, more likely, the citizens of Underbrooke are always alerted of new arrivals, and the Pen was one.

Edited March 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts