The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[ariel]

  On 10/11/2017 at 5:38 PM, Kokapetl said:

But a consultant psychiatrist/attending physician would be knowledgeable enough to be consulted on the statistics relating to the reporting of child abuse by parents and the factors that influence that reporting, right? Or at least know where the journal articles on that subject are?

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 Once again, the consultant person involved in the reporting of what Josh did was a cop friend of JB.  Nothing was reported.  Josh was sent to some Gothard place to do some low level construction work  to atone for what he did.

Edited October 11, 2017 by ariel

[kokapetl]

  On 10/11/2017 at 5:49 PM, ariel said:

 Once again, the consultant person involved in the reporting of what Josh did was a cop friend of JB.  Nothing was reported.  Josh was sent to some Gothard place to do some low level construction work  to atone for what he did.

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When I say consultant, I’m referring to medical specialists who have completed all their specialist training. 

[ariel]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, Kokapetl said:

When I say consultant, I’m referring to medical specialists who have completed all their specialist training. 

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The sad thing is that Duggars didn't consult any medical specialist when this happened.  They should have.

[doodlebug]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, Kokapetl said:

When I say consultant, I’m referring to medical specialists who have completed all their specialist training. 

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If you are looking for statistics on the number of parents who report to authorities that one of their children is sexually molesting one or more of their other children; I'd think that the actual number of people in this particular situation is so low that it would be impossible to find reliable statistical data on this sort of situation.  Also, in the case of the Duggars, you'd need to narrow your group down to a child who molested multiple siblings and others repeatedly over a period of years which is an even tinier subset.  While perhaps many parents would try to handle a single episode of molestation privately, I would think the number of parents who would allow their son to repeatedly molest 4 of their daughters as well as a friend over a period of years without consulting anyone (including licensed counselors or clergy required to report the molestation) is pretty tiny. 

[kokapetl]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:06 PM, ariel said:

The sad thing is that Duggars didn't consult any medical specialist when this happened.  They should have.

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You’re a 100% on the mark. I would prioritise the reporting of sexual abuse victims, in order to identify those who need treatment as juvenile victims, then their juvenile assailants, and lastly, the prosecution of juvenile assailants. Potential prosecution can deter reporting, what’s more important? 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Sew Sumi]

Sorry to interrupt again, but they've left PR, landing in the Turks and Caicos in about half an hour. 

We'll probably never know what they did there other than run out of tracts.

[kokapetl]

I vow not to post in this topic for twenty four hours. 

Mods, If I break my vow, please don’t give me points, just delete what I post. 

[Ohiopirate02]

  On 10/11/2017 at 5:41 PM, queenanne said:

In my experience, fundie Baptist style ‘Church elders’ are unpaid volunteers, and don’t have any real status as ‘clergy’.  If he had spoken to ‘the minister ‘, then yes, I would think it likely that person would know their responsibility.  (This may depend on denomination and official status, but I’m pretty sure a home church doesn’t bother with niceties like actual training or making sure they hew to any standard other than the Bible.)

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Depending on state law, any church volunteer is a mandatory reporter.  In North Carolina, the Diocese of Raleigh will not allow any adult to help with church related children activities without a certification.  I had to sit through a 4 hour class on spotting child abuse in order to help with the youth group.  I know us Catholics are a lot more bureaucratic than most Baptists, but the law is the law.  

[Aja]

I doubt any normal parent (so not the Duggars) would involve the cops in the first instance if, like the Josh situation, the offender and victims were all minors and all siblings. If, after APPROPRIATE therapy and counselling, that minor continues to offend unless directly and closely supervised, THEN one might think about the cops as an extreme protective measure. The fact that they're all "oh, we totally handled the situation!" by going to a cop is bizarre right from the beginning, and absolutely counterproductive to addressing the core issues.

[doodlebug]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:16 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Sorry to interrupt again, but they've left PR, landing in the Turks and Caicos in about half an hour. 

We'll probably never know what they did there other than run out of tracts.

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Turks and Caicos was already hit hard by Irma.  The last thing they need is an invasion of Duggar adjacents.  It does appear that many of T&C's resorts have reopened, maybe the poor dears need some R&R after their busy week of proselytizing.

[doodlebug]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:22 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Depending on state law, any church volunteer is a mandatory reporter.  In North Carolina, the Diocese of Raleigh will not allow any adult to help with church related children activities without a certification.  I had to sit through a 4 hour class on spotting child abuse in order to help with the youth group.  I know us Catholics are a lot more bureaucratic than most Baptists, but the law is the law.  

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My nephew worked one summer doing maintainance at a Catholic high school, mainly landscaping, lawn mowing and painting.  He was required to take VIRTUS (Catholic church's anti child abuse program) before he started as well as be fingerprinted.  The Catholic Church was tragically slow to address the situation; but they've made major strides in prevention of molestation and other forms of child abuse since then.  Everyone who works in any capacity with minors, whether paid or volunteer, is required to take the course at my church and I think it applies throughout my diocese.

[Churchhoney]

  On 10/11/2017 at 1:10 AM, BetyBee said:

I'll second that.  Love Aldi.  They have healthy choices too, though I'm sure the Duggs stay away from those!

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Healthy food won't save you. Only Jesus will. 

[Sew Sumi]

@doodlebug, that must have been fairly recent. I did field work at a Catholic grade school about 10 years ago, and during our orientation, were told how to FIND a mandatory reporter. 

[Aja]

  On 10/11/2017 at 7:16 PM, Churchhoney said:

Healthy food won't save you. Only Jesus will. 

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Healthy food, jobs, medical care--Jesus got it all under control.

[Churchhoney]

  On 10/11/2017 at 7:22 PM, Aja said:

Healthy food, jobs, medical care--Jesus got it all under control.

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We see the evidence every day, don't we? 

Oh, I forgot. He saves us in that other world that JB and M and company are on their triumphant way to. Not the regular world that I wake up to with increasing horror every morning. 

[Lunera]

Laura, Jana, and the J boys(Jed/Jer) were at a wedding last weekend. Why was Laura asking for money if she didn't even go to PR?

[bythelake]

  On 10/11/2017 at 5:36 PM, Sew Sumi said:

There was a strange flight around San Juan yesterday. Only airborne for half an hour with the same take off and landing airport. 

That's it.

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Thanks @Sew Sumi. They probably were up in the air just long enough to drop bible tracts to the people who have no electricity, food or water.

[Churchhoney]

  On 10/11/2017 at 8:24 PM, bythelake said:

Thanks @Sew Sumi. They probably were up in the air just long enough to drop bible tracts to the people who have no electricity, food or water.

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Hey, paper's edible. 

And before you eat it, you can fan yourself with it. It's a twofer. 

A threefer if you're a heathen Catholic who needs to hear the good news. 

[DangerousMinds]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:24 PM, Aja said:

I doubt any normal parent (so not the Duggars) would involve the cops in the first instance if, like the Josh situation, the offender and victims were all minors and all siblings. If, after APPROPRIATE therapy and counselling, that minor continues to offend unless directly and closely supervised, THEN one might think about the cops as an extreme protective measure. The fact that they're all "oh, we totally handled the situation!" by going to a cop is bizarre right from the beginning, and absolutely counterproductive to addressing the core issues.

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Therapists and counselors are mandated reporters so would have had to report the situation.

[bythelake]

  On 10/11/2017 at 4:55 PM, Aja said:

JB told the state trooper because the state trooper was a fundy buddy of his (who, correct me if I'm wrong, is currently in prison for being a pedo.) I'm not sure an "average parent" would involve the cops in the first place--most "average parents" would see their fourteen year-old inappropriately touching his sisters and get him AND the sisters AND themselves into intensive family therapy STAT. Unless they had to figure out a way to cover it up so it wouldn't jeopardize their TV show.

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This! They all needed therapy, but the narcissistic parents would never dream of sending their children much less going themselves. The first molestations IIRC, happened just before the show was taking off, and they saw the dollar signs. Financially they weren't doing so well, and the children became the sacrificial lambs. Money over common sense. Maybe, that's why Jill is having all those anxiety problems? 

[bythelake]

  On 10/11/2017 at 8:49 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Therapists and counselors are mandated reporters so would have had to report the situation.

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Wouldn't that cop have been a mandated reporter? I would think it would have been his responsibility to inform his superiors  and not handle it himself. Josh molested 5 girls. That's a big deal.  And what about the church elders that JB supposedly told? I am a nurse (retired) and a mandated reporter. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble if you are aware of a situation and don't report it. But, we know now, since he's in prison what kind of a guy the cop was, so I guess he wasn't following the rules either. 

What has always bothered me, is how those girls can look Josh in the face, be around him and act like everything is normal. They had been taught that their virginity was their prized possession, and their own brother touched them in ways that even their intended husbands weren't allowed. I would spit in his face.

[bigskygirl]

I remembered one scene with Jill and Jessa? where they were talking about getting advice about kissing from JB and Josh since the both of them were married and were experts about kissing. Ewwwww.... Going to the person who molested you more than once about how to kiss is beyond gross and disgusting.

[ginger90]

Mandatory reporting in Arkansas

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/arkansas-law/arkansas-child-abuse-laws.html?version=2

[GeeGolly]

I agree that the average parent would not go to the police in a situation similar to the Josh issue. I know this by working with many, many survivors of sexual abuse, including incest, extended family members, close 'friends', etc. 

Mandated reporters are mandated to contact DCF or CPS, or whatever it is called in that area, not he police. Police involvement is rare and usually only when the victim chooses to press charges. Courts may become involved if custody becomes an issue. DCF typically handles these cases from beginning to end. DCF documents are highly protected, hard to get and are heavily redacted if accessed at all. 

As I've said before, if DCF was involved with the Duggar/Josh issue what DCF would have done would have been similar to what really happened. DCF would have opened an investigation, skilled interviewers would have spoken with all involved, Josh likely would have been removed from the home for a period of time (or permanently), he would have been required to engage in some type of treatment, it would have been suggested the girls receive counseling, if reunification was indicated then 'safeguards' would be instituted.

In a perfect world no child would ever be violated - ever. Reality is a lot of kids are. This is why DCF exists.

The reason why some of these cases go unreported is because parents are struggling with their feelings of love and  protection of all their kids - even the molester. The best outcome is for parents to seek help and get support for both the offender and the victims.

I believe JB's & M's most egregious mistake was not taking the first incident seriously and certainly not seeing a pattern by the second. An intervention should have happened sooner. Three or four children likely would not have become victims. 

One could argue that if JB & M handled it differently and/or weren't outspoken homophobic assholes that none of this would be pubic. Probably true. But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public.

[Vaysh]

  On 10/11/2017 at 12:58 AM, irisheyes said:

you have to bag your own groceries

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OT, but someone actually bags your groceries for you in the US?

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/11/2017 at 10:40 PM, Vaysh said:

OT, but someone actually bags your groceries for you in the US?

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Yes, at most grocery stores either there is a bagger who is bagging the items while the cashier rings them up, or the cashier bags them after you pay.

[Vaysh]

  On 10/11/2017 at 10:51 PM, GeeGolly said:

Yes, at most grocery stores either there is a bagger who is bagging the items while the cashier rings them up, or the cashier bags them after you pay.

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Huh. Personally, this would drive me batshit but I can see how it could be useful for the elderly and disabled.

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/11/2017 at 11:02 PM, Vaysh said:

Huh. Personally, this would drive me batshit but I can see how it could be useful for the elderly and disabled.

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Yup. I tend to put all my like items on the belt so they'll be bagged the way I prefer. More often, I bag them myself if there is not a bagger at the ready. The grocery store I shop at the most hires folks with developmental challenges as baggers and I often find myself lost in conversation with them and always leave with a smile.

[PikaScrewChu]

  On 10/11/2017 at 10:15 PM, GeeGolly said:

One could argue that if JB & M handled it differently and/or weren't outspoken homophobic assholes that none of this would be pubic. Probably true. But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public.

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Under Arkansas law at the time meant that as long as the documents were properly redacted, it could be released for public consumption. Now it's basically whether the documents were properly redacted or not. And anything against InTouch for requesting under the FOIA and publishing the documents.

Did they deserve to have the information made public? No. But that was the law at the time and their parents couldn't be bothered to get legal advice on whether the interviews would end up being available pending FOIA requests. It's quite possible they would have been able to have the records expunged or sealed well before a tabloid decided to take the plunge to request the documents. They knew enough to retain a lawyer for Josh so the Springdale PD couldn't interview him. Why not spare a few pennies to see if the daughters were similarly protected?

[louannems]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:12 PM, doodlebug said:

If you are looking for statistics on the number of parents who report to authorities that one of their children is sexually molesting one or more of their other children; I'd think that the actual number of people in this particular situation is so low that it would be impossible to find reliable statistical data on this sort of situation.  Also, in the case of the Duggars, you'd need to narrow your group down to a child who molested multiple siblings and others repeatedly over a period of years which is an even tinier subset.  While perhaps many parents would try to handle a single episode of molestation privately, I would think the number of parents who would allow their son to repeatedly molest 4 of their daughters as well as a friend over a period of years without consulting anyone (including licensed counselors or clergy required to report the molestation) is pretty tiny. 

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AND they decided it would be a good idea to produce 8 MORE children!

[xwordfanatik]

  On 10/11/2017 at 11:07 PM, GeeGolly said:

Yup. I tend to put all my like items on the belt so they'll be bagged the way I prefer. More often, I bag them myself if there is not a bagger at the ready. The grocery store I shop at the most hires folks with developmental challenges as baggers and I often find myself lost in conversation with them and always leave with a smile.

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I do the same.  Frozen items on the belt first, then produce, then meat, then dairy and then canned food, non-food, etc.  Makes it a lot easier when I get home and unload.  I tend to be chatty at the store too.  It's nice to have a bagger, and mostly they do a good job.

[latetotheparty]

  On 10/12/2017 at 12:13 AM, PikaScrewChu said:

Under Arkansas law at the time meant that as long as the documents were properly redacted, it could be released for public consumption. Now it's basically whether the documents were properly redacted or not. And anything against InTouch for requesting under the FOIA and publishing the documents.

Did they deserve to have the information made public? No. But that was the law at the time and their parents couldn't be bothered to get legal advice on whether the interviews would end up being available pending FOIA requests. It's quite possible they would have been able to have the records expunged or sealed well before a tabloid decided to take the plunge to request the documents. They knew enough to retain a lawyer for Josh so the Springdale PD couldn't interview him. Why not spare a few pennies to see if the daughters were similarly protected?

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Because they didn't care enough. It was always going to be about Josh. 

[queenanne]

  On 10/11/2017 at 6:22 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Depending on state law, any church volunteer is a mandatory reporter.  In North Carolina, the Diocese of Raleigh will not allow any adult to help with church related children activities without a certification.  I had to sit through a 4 hour class on spotting child abuse in order to help with the youth group.  I know us Catholics are a lot more bureaucratic than most Baptists, but the law is the law.  

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Turns out we don't actually have to have expertise in what the founders of "home churches" are and aren't required to follow legally, because here are the current requirements for mandatory reporters listed on the Arkansas Board of Education webpage, at minimum:

http://www.arkansased.gov/divisions/communications/safety/mandated-reporters

  Quote

 (29) A clergy member, which includes a minister, priest, rabbi, accredited Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting him or her, except to the extent the clergy member:

      (A) Has acquired knowledge of suspected child maltreatment through communications required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith; or

      (B) Received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of admission;

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Which, in layperson's terms, sounds awfully to me like Arkansas's attitude is "if the church makes a case that they have to be hush-hush about it, we'll accept this."

Josh also stood up and made a "statement of admission" in front of the entire church, as I recall the story, so whomever was in charge at the church, probably thought they were doubly covered.

Edited October 12, 2017 by queenanne
I'm perfectly happy for that text not to be orange, but I can't figure out how!

[questionfear]

  On 10/11/2017 at 10:40 PM, Vaysh said:

OT, but someone actually bags your groceries for you in the US?

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Depends on the grocery store. The ones that do are usually pretty quick about it (the Wegmans by me is very fast-they ring, bag, ring, bag, ring, bag and by the time I've figured out where my card is to pay they're all set)

[ariel]

  On 10/11/2017 at 10:15 PM, GeeGolly said:

 

One could argue that if JB & M handled it differently and/or weren't outspoken homophobic assholes that none of this would be pubic. Probably true. But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public.

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As of now, The Freedom of Information Act applies to all in the US.  The Duggars are not special snowflakes.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ariel

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/12/2017 at 7:33 PM, ariel said:

As of now, The Freedom of Information Act applies to all in the US.  The Duggars are not special snowflakes.

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I agree. I'm not understanding where the Duggars are special snowflakes in this.

[ariel]

  On 10/12/2017 at 9:31 PM, GeeGolly said:

I agree. I'm not understanding where the Duggars are special snowflakes in this.

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"But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public"

From your post it sounds like you are not happy that Freedom of information Act was used to legally obtain info on the Duggars.

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/12/2017 at 9:52 PM, ariel said:

"But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public"

From your post it sounds like you are not happy that Freedom of information Act was used to legally obtain info on the Duggars.

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Ah, gotcha. I was meaning that Michelle's robocall was the catalyst for the tabloid wanting the records, which in my opinion were incorrectly redacted and published on an internet tabloid. Some posters feel that because JB & M are crappy parents and fame whores the tabloids were looking for the documents for a story. If they stayed off of TV and out of politics no one would have paid attention to any of it at all.

My opinion is an incorrectly redacted document is an incorrectly redacted document no matter who you are or your parents are.

Edited October 12, 2017 by GeeGolly
To state my point more clearly

[ariel]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:04 PM, GeeGolly said:

My opinion is an incorrectly redacted document is an incorrectly redacted document no matter who you are or your parents are.

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We'll see what the court decides on the redacted documents if they were done incorrectly or up to AR standards.  I wonder if it varies state by state or is a national standard?

Edited October 12, 2017 by ariel

[lascuba]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:04 PM, GeeGolly said:

Ah, gotcha. I was meaning that Michelle's robocall was the catalyst for the tabloid wanting the records, which in my opinion were incorrectly redacted and published on an internet tabloid. Some posters feel that because JB & M are crappy parents and fame whores the tabloids were looking for the documents for a story. If they stayed off of TV and out of politics no one would have paid attention to any of it at all.

My opinion is an incorrectly redacted document is an incorrectly redacted document no matter who you are or your parents are.

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Not quite. The robocall was the catalyst for a local resident to call In Touch with information that seemingly the entire community had known for years. With that tip, In Touch knew for which time period they could request records.

I could be convinced that the girls have case against the police and city, though it does seem to me that they followed all laws at the time. Their case against In Touch is bogus, though. They made a legal request for information. They got that information. The onus is not on them to make sure that the police/local government did the right thing.

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:10 PM, ariel said:

We'll see what the court decides on the redacted documents if they were done incorrectly or up to AR standards.  I wonder if it varies state by state?

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I'm guessing it doesn't very by state, but I'm not a lawyer. Even if the Duggar girls lose I hope more safeguards are put in place to protect any children who are victim of sexual assaults. A lot of victims, young and old, are cautious about reporting sexual assaults for so many reasons, one of which is the continued stigma surrounding it.  

[ariel]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:18 PM, GeeGolly said:

I'm guessing it doesn't very by state, but I'm not a lawyer. Even if the Duggar girls lose I hope more safeguards are put in place to protect any children who are victim of sexual assaults. A lot of victims, young and old, are cautious about reporting sexual assaults for so many reasons, one of which is the continued stigma surrounding it.  

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We're going round and round on this.  If the Duggars had done the legal thing & reported Josh, the records would have been sealed because he was a minor. No one would have know about it.  This part of the discussion seems to be lost.

The Duggar were not F'd over.  They set themselves up for this thinking they were above the law.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ariel

[PikaScrewChu]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:16 PM, lascuba said:

Not quite. The robocall was the catalyst for a local resident to call In Touch with information that seemingly the entire community had known for years. With that tip, In Touch knew for which time period they could request records.

I could be convinced that the girls have case against the police and city, though it does seem to me that they followed all laws at the time. Their case against In Touch is bogus, though. They made a legal request for information. They got that information. The onus is not on them to make sure that the police/local government did the right thing.

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The lawsuit against the city and county were dismissed which was expected when the lawsuit was filed. The lawsuit was also dismissed against the county's lawyer. The parts of the lawsuit against the police chief of Springdale PD at the time and the guy employed in the Sheriff's office weren't dismissed. Part of the suit against the city's lawyer was dismissed but not fully dismissed.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2017/sep/29/some-defendants-dismissed-but-bulk-of-d/

The full ruling is somewhere in this thread. So the lawsuit just moves forward against O'Kelly, Hoyt, and Cate as individuals rather than the city and county. The rest is against InTouch and Bauer Media. I haven't seen any mention of a motion by InTouch to have the lawsuit dismissed yet. Don't know if I want to re-read the lawsuit to see what exactly they are suing InTouch for again.

Edited October 12, 2017 by PikaScrewChu

[GeeGolly]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:23 PM, ariel said:

We're going round and round on this.  If the Duggars had done the legal thing & reported Josh, the records would have been sealed because he was a minor. No one would have know about it.  This part of the discussion seems to be looked over.

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I don't think we're going round and round, I think we just disagree.

Do parents have legal obligation to report Josh? I realize they have a moral obligation, but I'm unclear about the laws. DCF doesn't report it to the police.

[Churchhoney]

Just because I've enjoyed reading this several times over the years, here's a piece in which Billy Graham's grandson bashes the Duggars six ways to Billy Sunday over their hideous handling of these events. http://religionnews.com/2015/06/12/responding-to-sibling-sexual-abuse-what-to-do-and-why/

[SMama]

I’ve only practiced in CA as a CPS SW, but here we cross report. If someone reports sexual abuse (even if it ends up as only a criminal case) to law enforcement they report to us, and vice versa. The thought is to protect more or future victims. A case like Josh’s could easily end up in juvenile court, whether or not the girls forgave him. No one will even care Jesus forgave him. I don’t have the time to look, but wonder if Arkansas child welfare laws are the same. It would explain why those scumbag parents circled the wagons around their golden boy. Who cares about the girls? They were only bred to be brood mares. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by SMama
Spelling

[Obsidian]

  On 10/12/2017 at 10:23 PM, ariel said:

We're going round and round on this.  If the Duggars had done the legal thing & reported Josh, the records would have been sealed because he was a minor. No one would have know about it.  This part of the discussion seems to be lost.

The Duggar were not F'd over.  They set themselves up for this thinking they were above the law.

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Do you mean the daughters (the plaintiffs) weren't f***ed over and set themselves up for it, or the parents? I can't imagine that anyone would seriously think that the 4 daughters named in the case had a say in how their parents handled the situations where Josh molested 5 girls, in which case it is the parents - not part of the case, and therefore not relevant to it - who set themselves up for this thinking they were above the law, and the four daughters were indeed f***ed over by their parents and maybe also - depending on how the case turns out - by (individuals employed by) the police/city/media. 

[DangerousMinds]

Parents have all the responsibility to keep their children safe in their own homes, however.

[birkenstock]

Michelle was her kids' teacher and that should have legally placed her into the position of a mandatory reporter.  I don't think that Arkansas requires parent-teachers to report, but this grey area has the potential for rampant child abuse.  

[kokapetl]

  On 10/12/2017 at 9:52 PM, ariel said:

"But in my opinion having assholes for parents or being an asshole doesn't make okay to have private information made public"

From your post it sounds like you are not happy that Freedom of information Act was used to legally obtain info on the Duggars.

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The fourth amendment gives people a right to privacy.