Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[Blergh]

2 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought Polly Holiday left Alice because they spun her off onto her own show.

There were rumors that Miss Holiday left Alice to do the spinoff  due to rivalry between herself and Miss Lavin but Miss Holiday has kept her own counsel down the years and has never said a peep against Miss Lavin. However; not only did she never return to the original show but Miss Lavin never guested on hers while Vic 'Mel' Tayback DID! Also, it's interesting that after she left the show, they reshot the opening credits with Diane Ladd as Belle re- enacting a  comical scene that Flo had done.  In any case, I've always liked Miss Holiday's performances down the years and hope her evident retirement has been good for her! 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, hoosier80 said:

Watching reruns of Alice.  I never did see Linda Lavin as such a wonderful singer or the gorgeous woman who has men going wild over her.  She's not hideous looking, but not drop dead gorgeous.  I realize that attitude, personality also plays a part in attraction, but I never saw her as anything interesting.

Then add in her love interest Travis (who I believe was her real life husband at that point - and from whom she had a nasty divorce). He'd been on first as a love interest for Vera (Steve Marsh and Travis was a country singer who was his cousin - a tired old trope).  The two - Alice and Travis sang country duets, and it was awful.  Not that they were out of tune, but her voice is not suited for country one bit.  

Then, they had a series of episodes where LL was an older woman, complete with a New York/Jewish accent.  I guess she wanted to 'stretch' as an actor.  It was cringe worthy.

Too bad LL ran Flo off of the show (many stories about how LL was not happy that Flo 'stole the show' initially).  The Flo replacements were just not of the same caliber.   I still laugh when I hear the line by Flo - 'ding dong daddy' (as Mel goes off and is banging on his pickup bell).

I didn't really like Alice either.  I liked Vera the best.  And I also liked Flo and Jolene, but not Belle, so much.  But, to be honest I was young and I think it was mostly the haircut I didn't like.  Such a surfacey little kid I was.  I also liked Mel. So, it turns out on a show called Alice my second least favorite character was Alice. 

[Mabinogia]

47 minutes ago, Katy M said:

2 hours ago, hoosier80 said:

Watching reruns of Alice.  I never did see Linda Lavin as such a wonderful singer or the gorgeous woman who has men going wild over her.  She's not hideous looking, but not drop dead gorgeous.  I realize that attitude, personality also plays a part in attraction, but I never saw her as anything interesting.

Then add in her love interest Travis (who I believe was her real life husband at that point - and from whom she had a nasty divorce). He'd been on first as a love interest for Vera (Steve Marsh and Travis was a country singer who was his cousin - a tired old trope).  The two - Alice and Travis sang country duets, and it was awful.  Not that they were out of tune, but her voice is not suited for country one bit.  

Then, they had a series of episodes where LL was an older woman, complete with a New York/Jewish accent.  I guess she wanted to 'stretch' as an actor.  It was cringe worthy.

Too bad LL ran Flo off of the show (many stories about how LL was not happy that Flo 'stole the show' initially).  The Flo replacements were just not of the same caliber.   I still laugh when I hear the line by Flo - 'ding dong daddy' (as Mel goes off and is banging on his pickup bell).

Read more  

I didn't really like Alice either.  I liked Vera the best.  And I also liked Flo and Jolene, but not Belle, so much. 

Vera and Flo were my favorites. I did like Mel too. Jolene was okay but I don't remember Belle at all, so I probably didn't care for her much. Didn't like Alice, but Alice was the straight person who was the anchor that let the others be bubbly and fun. 

It is very similar to Cybill. I watched that show 100% for Maryanne! It was my intro to Christine Baranski and I feel in instant love with the woman. I didn't really care much for any of the others, the redheaded daughter was okay, the other one was boring. The only interesting thing about her was she was Michelle Pffiefer's sister. lol Cybill was aweful. Cybill Shepard hated that Baranski got all the laughs, but that was her job, she was the funny sidekick. I don't think the stars got that. They wanted to be the star and also be the funny sidekick. IMO the sidekick is always funnier than the star. 

I loved when CSI and 3 1/2 Men's production team switched shows and 3 1/2 Men's team did a CSI with a Cybill character who gets killed. Peg Bundy (can't think of real name right now) played the Cybill character. It was actually really good, and had Rachael Harris, whom I love as much as Christine Baranski, so RH playing CBs character was epic. 

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Vera and Flo were my favorites. I did like Mel too. Jolene was okay but I don't remember Belle at all, so I probably didn't care for her much. Didn't like Alice, but Alice was the straight person who was the anchor that let the others be bubbly and fun. 

I don't think that, in and of itself, makes a character unlikeable, though. I happened to be talking to my mom about the Andy Griffith Show for some reason and said I didn't like it after Barney left.  I won't even watch those episodes.  But, that doesn't mean I didn't like Andy.

As for Cybill, I actually couldn't stand Marianne.  But, I don't think I liked Cybill all that much either, but more than Marianne. Honestly, I didn't really watch the show that much, but I think I mostly liked Zoe and Ira. I have no idea what Cybill's been doing lately, but she probably could have worked a lot more if she didn't go around trashing her co-stars.

[sistermagpie]

I always felt bad for Diane Ladd playing Belle because she was the original Flo in the movie and I think even won an oscar for it. So it was pushed as a big deal when she came on but the original Flo and then Belle just weren't a good fit for a sitcom.

[giovannif7]

10 hours ago, hoosier80 said:

Watching reruns of Alice.  I never did see Linda Lavin as such a wonderful singer

Having seen the 1974 movie (Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore with Ellen Burstyn, well worth a watch for those who haven't seen it or are unaware) before watching the series, I actually appreciated the carryover that Alice's mediocre talent from the film was still evident in the TV show. In the film, Alice thought she was a terrific singer, but when she was actually shown singing, it was clear why her big performing gig was accompanying herself in a seedy Southwestern bar rather than living her dream of starting a singing career in her California home town.

As for the rest of the film, Kris Kristofferson was great as her love interest, Diane Ladd was a wonderful foul-mouthed Flo, and Valerie Curtin's was a very different Vera - more of an odd, socially awkward character than the dim but outgoing and optimistic Beth Howland TV version. Plus, there's a terrific early performance by Jodie Foster, whose character befriends Alice's son.

[MonicaM]

Based on the current discussion, I will offer my unpopular opinion.  I couldn't stand the show "Alice".  I read the book long before the television program was made, and the show didn't really reflect the story in the book.

It's been many years, so I don't remember the exact story line, but basically newly widowed Alice was trying to make her way to California, with her son, to become a famous singer.  She ran out of money and options and was devastated that she had to take a job as a waitress.  She didn't enjoy her life in a tiny apartment, the boss wasn't really a gruff but lovable guy, and the other main waitress character (can't remember if her name was Flo or not) didn't constantly crack jokes.  It had some good moments, but it was not a comedy.  

I may have liked the show better had I not read the book it was supposedly based on, but maybe not.  The Mel character is one of my least favorite character types, and I dislike having someone like him as the boss over women who have few job options.

Just saw the post above this one and I will add that the movie was good and much more accurately reflected the pathos in the book.  

Edited August 23, 2019 by MonicaM
Added comment on movie.

[sistermagpie]

Was Linda Lavin playing her as a mediocre talent? She was a performer is musicals on Broadway and didn't seem to be intentionally playing Alice as more of an amateur.  Of course the series was always dealing with the fact that it was based on a woman who was supposed to be on her way somewhere else. This Alice was obviously just a waitress.  If she never left it was sad but the didn't want to be about failure.

Even the theme song is about how she's arrived where she wants to be. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Was Linda Lavin playing her as a mediocre talent? She was a performer is musicals on Broadway and didn't seem to be intentionally playing Alice as more of an amateur.  Of course the series was always dealing with the fact that it was based on a woman who was supposed to be on her way somewhere else. This Alice was obviously just a waitress.  If she never left it was sad but the didn't want to be about failure.

Even the theme song is about how she's arrived where she wants to be. 

Full disclosure, I did not see the movie or read the book.  But, based on the conversation of what the movie was about, and based on the theme song to the show, maybe the show takes place after the movie when Alice has come to terms with not making it big?  Just a thought.  But, again, I didn't see the movie, so I'm basing my entire opinion from the comments above.

[Mabinogia]

I had no idea the TV show Alice and the movie Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore were the same story! I never saw the movie, just know of it, so this could be why. lol Didn't know there was a book either. 

[hoosier80]

All of the characters on the tv show definitely ooh'd and aaah'd every time Alice sang.

I think she eventually went to Nashville with the country singer (her husband at the time), and she was going to be a star!  Her son was finished or nearly finished with college, so she didn't have to stay in Arizona or wherever he was living, as he was an adult.

I don't remember seeing the movie in full, but what I do remember it was much grittier and more realistic of a small diner off of a highway in Arizona.  I was kind of shocked as to how different it was from the tv show - definitely not a comedy.

What I took to be the pilot episode was on this morning.  I half watched (working from home today) as I was waiting responses to some emails.  There was a different kid playing Tommy.  He had brown hair, glasses, and was a bit of a smart ass (the blonde Tommy was but he was a bit more likeable than this one).  The other core actors were the same - Mel, Flo, Vera.  Episode revolved around some mid 20 year old guy trying to pick up Alice, who refused him until he said he was a talent agent.  Flo got a piano somehow into the diner and Alice played and sang there (I guess to save on sets?).  They all ooh'd and ahhh'd over her performance.  Even Mel said oh you sing real good (too bad you're not as good of a waitress).  They all thought she was going to be leaving as she did so well on her 'audition'.  Then she found out quickly, as he tried to put moves on her that no, he wasn't an agent but a travelling salesman.  The apartment was larger and nicer in the pilot.  

[Vixenstud]

On 8/22/2019 at 12:55 PM, Blergh said:

There were rumors that Miss Holiday left Alice to do the spinoff due to rivalry between herself and Miss Lavin but Miss Holiday has kept her own counsel down the years and has never said a peep against Miss Lavin. However; not only did she never return to the original show but Miss Lavin never guested on hers while Vic 'Mel' Tayback DID! Also, it's interesting that after she left the show, they reshot the opening credits with Diane Ladd as Belle re- enacting a  comical scene that Flo had done.  In any case, I've always liked Miss Holiday's performances down the years and hope her evident retirement has been good for her! 

To Polly's credit, if she has or had any negative thoughts about Linda she has kept them to herself.  I wish she would have done what Whitman Mayo (Grady, Sanford and Son) did when he left Sanford and Son to do the ill-fated series Grady, which is he had it in his contract that if Grady didn't work out he could return to S&S.  He passed that wisdom to Marla Gibbs (Florence, The Jeffersons), whose own sitcom Checking In flopped, leaving her to return to The Jeffersons.

As for Diane Ladd, love her but hated the Belle character, as they tried to make her Flo Jr. and it just didn't work....add to that she and LL also didn't get along.

Finally, LL's singing...while I didn't mind it and yes, she did go OTT on it at times, she lost me when she and Martha Raye sang D'ya Think I'm Sexy in an episode.  Still traumatized over that one!

[hoosier80]

28 minutes ago, Vixenstud said:

Finally, LL's singing...while I didn't mind it and yes, she did go OTT on it at times, she lost me when she and Martha Raye sang D'ya Think I'm Sexy in an episode.  Still traumatized over that one!

Ok yes, that was awful, and I laughed at remembering that scene.  I think they did a costume reveal, I think from something frumpy (they were old women?) to flashy sequin monstrosities.

I also really like Diane Ladd, but the Belle character was off.  She deserved better.  Maybe Polly didn't want to come back to Alice if she and LL didn't get along well.  I think she had pretty steady work at regional theatres, so maybe she preferred that to the alleged on set tensions.

[Vixenstud]

If I gotta suffer....

https://m.facebook.com/logged_out/watch/?video_id=10150446278679953&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

[BlackberryJam]

4 minutes ago, Vixenstud said:

If I gotta suffer....

https://m.facebook.com/logged_out/watch/?video_id=10150446278679953&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

I’d hate you if I weren’t dead of secondhand embarrassment. 🙂

[Vixenstud]

LOL!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Vixenstud said:

To Polly's credit, if she has or had any negative thoughts about Linda she has kept them to herself.  I wish she would have done what Whitman Mayo (Grady, Sanford and Son) did when he left Sanford and Son to do the ill-fated series Grady, which is he had it in his contract that if Grady didn't work out he could return to S&S.  He passed that wisdom to Marla Gibbs (Florence, The Jeffersons), whose own sitcom Checking In flopped, leaving her to return to The Jeffersons.

Poor Norman Fell tried to do that with The Ropers spin-off but since it ran for just enough episodes the network called it a success and he lost his gig. He never ever wanted to do that spin-off because he knew what a jackpot he'd hit on that show. Always felt bad for him about that.

1 hour ago, Vixenstud said:

 As for Diane Ladd, love her but hated the Belle character, as they tried to make her Flo Jr. and it just didn't work....add to that she and LL also didn't get along.

That's what I thought too. She always seemed like weak tea Flo to me. Then I saw the movie and thought she was great.

On 8/23/2019 at 10:57 AM, Katy M said:

Full disclosure, I did not see the movie or read the book.  But, based on the conversation of what the movie was about, and based on the theme song to the show, maybe the show takes place after the movie when Alice has come to terms with not making it big?  Just a thought.  But, again, I didn't see the movie, so I'm basing my entire opinion from the comments above.

Iirc, the show has exactly the same set up as the movie, where Alice breaks down in Arizona on her way to California and has to stay a while. And they end the same way, with both of them going to California. Only in the TV show Alice is obviously in no hurry to leave and is clearly just living in Arizona now while in the movie she's always trying to get out. 

Fun fact, according to Ellen Burstyn they hadn't quite figured out the end of the movie as they were shooting. When Alice is ready to leave she's fallen in love with Kris Kristofferson so it's like she's having to give up love or give up her dreams for a man again. She and Scorcese kept talking about it and finally KK just said, "Um, why don't I just go with her? My character doesn't seem to have anything holding him here."

EB just thought it was so funny because it had literally never occurred to them that was a possibility. Such were the times in the early 70s. Men didn't move anywhere for women.

[Vixenstud]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Poor Norman Fell tried to do that with The Ropers spin-off but since it ran for just enough episodes the network called it a success and he lost his gig. He never ever wanted to do that spin-off because he knew what a jackpot he'd hit on that show. Always felt bad for him about that.

Yup....he was bitter about that for the rest of his life, according to the TC E! True Hollywood Story.

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And they end the same way, with both of them going to California.

I thought Alice and Travis went to Tennessee....or did they go there before eventually going to Cali?

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Vixenstud said:

I thought Alice and Travis went to Tennessee....or did they go there before eventually going to Cali?

If that's what you remember I'm sure you're right. I only remember them leaving. Was she headed for Nashville maybe?

[Vixenstud]

I believe it was Nashville.

[Wiendish Fitch]

I'm not sad that The OA was cancelled. I thought it was creepy, pretentious, boring, glorified self-insert fanfic with some fucked up views on life and human relationships. 

[janie jones]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:46 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

I'm not sad that The OA was cancelled. I thought it was creepy, pretentious, boring, glorified self-insert fanfic with some fucked up views on life and human relationships. 

I completely agree.  I watched the entire first season just because I wanted to see how it ended and thought the finale was awful.  I was going to watch the second season out of curiosity but decided it wasn't worth the effort.

[BlackberryJam]

I don’t care how amazing Breaking Bad is. I’m not interested in watching another show centered around a middle-aged white male in crisis.

[DoctorAtomic]

To be fair, at the time, that wasn't really too much of a thing. The fact that you're (correctly) pointing that trope out shows the influence the show had on television.

I'd also don't know if I saw the show that way. It was more about circumstances elevated Walter to his true potential, which was not really a good person.

[BlackberryJam]

In the interest of full disclosure, I started hating movies/shows with white male leads in mid life crisis 35 years ago when I had to read Death of a Salesman. 

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The fact that you're (correctly) pointing that trope out shows the influence the show had on television.

Even though I kind of low key dislike The Sopranos (maybe my unpopular opinion?) the prevalence of the trope on television was probably largely due to the success of that show.  Breaking Bad certainly continued the movement but it was probably made possible by that predecessor.

Whether or not I can handle the trope depends on whether or not the creator recognizes that his/her creation is a piece of shit or not.  I definitely got the sense that Breaking Bad did. 

[kiddo82]

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Even though I kind of low key dislike The Sopranos (maybe my unpopular opinion?) the prevalence of the trope on television was probably largely due to the success of that show.  Breaking Bad certainly continued the movement but it was probably made possible by that predecessor.

Whether or not I can handle the trope depends on whether or not the creator recognizes that his/her creation is a piece of shit or not.  I definitely got the sense that Breaking Bad did. 

I never watched Breaking Bad but I agree on principle.  I don't' mind shows about anti heroes and I don't even necessarily mind shows where bad people get away with stuff cause that's life.  What I do mind is when a show constantly hand waves away all the bad shit the anti hero does or merely treats him as misunderstood or has characters constantly forgiving him etc.

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, kiddo82 said:

I never watched Breaking Bad but I agree on principle.  I don't' mind shows about anti heroes and I don't even necessarily mind shows where bad people get away with stuff cause that's life.  What I do mind is when a show constantly hand waves away all the bad shit the anti hero does or merely treats him as misunderstood or has characters constantly forgiving him etc.

Yep, see Craig on Degrassi!  His misdeeds are too numerous to even summarize but what really was infuriating was when he beat up his much shorter and smaller stepfather Joey right in front of the man's own child and girlfriend and it all got swept under the rug due to him being diagnosed as bipolar! I thought Joey should have permanently thrown him out of his house for that (especially considering how he'd given Craig refuge from his own abusive father and THAT is how he got repaid) but all the viewers got was everyone doing more handwringing over 'poor Craig'.

[supposebly]

Well, I stayed away from Breaking Bad because I thought the premise was utterly ludicrous and I couldn't find anything to relate to a teacher that after learning he is sick decides to become a drug dealer to provide for his family.

How about Life Insurance? I guess there is no drama in Life Insurance.

Edited September 2, 2019 by supposebly

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Even though I kind of low key dislike The Sopranos (maybe my unpopular opinion?) the prevalence of the trope on television was probably largely due to the success of that show.  Breaking Bad certainly continued the movement but it was probably made possible by that predecessor. 

Let's say Breaking Bad ushered in a more recent era then. The Sopranos certainly started that, as well as Sunday nights being the primo night for drama shows, and showed that the premium channels (HBO et al.) can create original content. So maybe BB kept the momentum going. And Mad Men. Though I don't know that I'd call Don a straight up criminal.

I mean, I'd say Babylon 5 made Game of Thrones possible, but it's a big time gap there.

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Well, I stayed away from Breaking Bad because I thought the premise was utterly ludicrous and I couldn't find anything to relate to a teacher that after learning he is sick decides to become a drug dealer to provide for his family

That^ and I assumed the show was glorifying meth makers/dealers. But around mid-season 3, after a number of posters on boards for shows I loved—and whose opinions I related to—all kept saying things like "you'll love Breaking Bad," I decided to watch the pilot. I immediately realized there was no glorifying drug dealing, and I binged until I caught up to the then- current season.

Regarding:

17 minutes ago, supposebly said:

How about Life Insurance? I guess there is no drama in Life Insurance.

If you mean health insurance, his was inadequate.

If you do mean life insurance, yeah, they glossed over it, but I'm guessing since his health insurance was so bad, then the life insurance for his family was probably pretty puny too.

[supposebly]

I just thought there are probably many other ideas before I become a criminal. He was supposed to be a smart person and that's what he comes up with? I think it's stupid. If it's a comment on the American Health care system, I don't think it's an interesting one.

Still, I haven't seen the show, so I can't really comment on what it was really about. But premises have to grab me and this one, I just found stupid. And the middle-aged white male problems that exist because you make a stupid decision without involving your wife you want to provide for, I'm out. I am assuming he didn't tell his wife until later.

[DearEvette]

29 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I just thought there are probably many other ideas before I become a criminal. He was supposed to be a smart person and that's what he comes up with? I think it's stupid. If it's a comment on the American Health care system, I don't think it's an interesting one.

Still, I haven't seen the show, so I can't really comment on what it was really about. But premises have to grab me and this one, I just found stupid. And the middle-aged white male problems that exist because you make a stupid decision without involving your wife you want to provide for, I'm out. I am assuming he didn't tell his wife until later. 

I don't think it was meant to be any sort of commentary about the American Health care system.  Except tangentially.  Walter was a science teacher who had a cancer diagnosis and the cost of fighting it was prohibitive.  We also see prior to that that he and the family were struggling a bit on his teacher salary.

But that is only presented as background to give grounding into his own justifications  to go into criminality.  Also to give the audience some initial sympathy for Walter.  As the show moves on though, you realize Walter is an intellectual snob and has a bitter sense of entitlement.  He approaches it as scientific exercise and a way to create an object of his own pure perfection.  Sure, he starts off wanting the money, but then he starts to see his creation as a legacy of sorts.  I think of Walter sometimes like one of those horror movie mad scientists who creates a horrific disease or creature and is more enamored that his creation is doing exactly what it was designed to do than horrified  by the result. 

As a chacracter study, the show becomes  the story of a man who becomes undone by his own hubris and his refusal to see the human costs (which in the course of the show become really, really high) of his own action.  The show, imo, after it has taken pains to give  the audience a reason to sympathize with Walter (in the beginning),  also takes pains to deliberately erode that sympathy as the show goes on until in the end his original motives are completely negated.

I do get, though, how the show just isn't for everyone.  I have a chemistry teacher neighbor who hated even the idea of the show.  He was vocal (and quite funny) in his excoriation of it

Edited September 2, 2019 by DearEvette

[Irlandesa]

2 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

until in the end his original motives are completely negated.

You just saved me a post.  I was hesitant too at first because I didn't want to watch a show about addiction or drug dealing but I gave it a chance and I'd even argue it was never really about the money. We see that as the show slowly reveals Walt to us in his decisions and his flashbacks. 

The show doesn't make a statement with a capital S about any current events issue. Not even addiction. It can be analyzed from that angle and some have but that's not the story.

[supposebly]

26 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

also takes pains to deliberately erode that sympathy as the show goes on until in the end his original motives are completely negated.

Ah, well, then that show would never have worked with me. I had no initial sympathy and his pretend motives were just that from the start for me.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

Ah, well, then that show would never have worked with me. I had no initial sympathy and his pretend motives were just that from the start for me.

It doesn't take that long for the motives to be clearly pretend. He has wealthy friends who offer to pay for everything early on. Plus, iirc, he seems attracted to cooking meth even before his diagnosis.

It's all about him being arrogant and entitled and always was. In fact, the one flaw in the premise someone pointed out to me that makes sense is they just don't get how somebody that arrogant (his arrogance already cost him the wealth those friends of his have) could be so beaten down by the pilot. But he probably just got sulky and resentful.

So yeah, the show never expects you to buy that the guy's got any real practical motives for what he's doing--he's humiliated and angered any time someone offers another solution to his money issues. It's all about the title: Breaking Bad.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

As the show moves on though, you realize Walter is an intellectual snob and has a bitter sense of entitlement.  He approaches it as scientific exercise and a way to create an object of his own pure perfection.  Sure, he starts off wanting the money, but then he starts to see his creation as a legacy of sorts.  I think of Walter sometimes like one of those horror movie mad scientists who creates a horrific disease or creature and is more enamored that his creation is doing exactly what it was designed to do than horrified  by the result.

I'm the guy that was rooting for Walter to get away with it. Which he kind of did. I also rooted for Tony Soprano, but, yes, Walter was a classical tragic figure due to his sense of entitlement that he couldn't get over. The thing was, he was absolutely the best at making product. Also, 'you best tread lightly' is one of the best lines of all time.

It's not necessarily just about Walt. There is a very strong redemption story for Jessie.

The other thing the show did was really create a very vivid world with real characters.

[DearEvette]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm the guy that was rooting for Walter to get away with it. Which he kind of did. I also rooted for Tony Soprano, but, yes, Walter was a classical tragic figure due to his sense of entitlement that he couldn't get over. The thing was, he was absolutely the best at making product. Also, 'you best tread lightly' is one of the best lines of all time.

Oh, I totally get this.  This is why Walter makes such an effective anti-hero.  There is a great argument for really despising him but there are some areas where he is the lesser of evils so you need him to triumph in those moments (the last episode especially I needed him to pull off a final win because his adversaries were way worse than he was).   I also think the show did that magical thing where they satisfied both his detractors and the people rooting for him and everybody got the ending they wanted, even Walter.

Personally, I adore the show, it is one my favorites ever.  I think about it in terms of how tight, cohesive and intelligent the storytelling is and how hands down perfect the acting by everyone is.  And what a fascinating character arc they built for Walter.  But I never wanted Walter to triumph completely in the end -- which he did or didn't depending on your reading of the final scene.  He had started a ball rolling that resulted in way too much tragedy.  That said, imo, the writing is so brilliant in places that you can't help but stop and admire certain set pieces and just have to say 'That motherfucker' in some awe as Walter pulled off something.  You didn't have to like him but you had to appreciate his dialogue and some of the shit he pulled off.

[BlackberryJam]

So an arrogant, entitled white man in crisis while being an intellectual snob. There is not one thing about it that sounds like something I would ever watch. All of these posts just validate my vastly unpopular opinion that I would hate every second of the show. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

I had no initial sympathy and his pretend motives were just that from the start for me.

You don't need to have sympathy from the beginning.  I think viewers went in spurts.  I lost mine for him much earlier than most people.  But his reasoning wasn't pretend.  He believed his own BS.  The audience largely did as well.  Then the audience stopped believing it the longer the show went on.

Again, it is not a show for everyone but there's the surface level description of the show and a deeper level and the reason why I love the show is the deeper level.

15 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I also think the show did that magical thing where they satisfied both his detractors and the people rooting for him and everybody got the ending they wanted, even Walter.

Yeah so I don't know that I've shared this before but for me, as a Walt detractor, I thought he got off too easy. The show is practically perfect for me but its finale doesn't rank for me as one of the best the way it does for many others.

Spoiler

I didn't like that he basically got to die the way he wanted and set aside money for his family.  I hope we find out in the movie that they figured out he was trying to give them money and they reject it.

I also think Jesse did too much to get a happy ending which makes me a little nervous for El Camino. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Irlandesa

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm the guy that was rooting for Walter to get away with it. Which he kind of did. I also rooted for Tony Soprano, but, yes, Walter was a classical tragic figure due to his sense of entitlement that he couldn't get over. The thing was, he was absolutely the best at making product. Also, 'you best tread lightly' is one of the best lines of all time.

Me too. Not because I thought he was ever is good person, but I don't feel guilty about enjoying him outsmart people or make a good product. Also sometimes I think people used Walt's awesomeness to argue that other characters were better or more right than they were.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm the guy that was rooting for Walter to get away with it.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Me too. Not because I thought he was ever is good person, but I don't feel guilty about enjoying him outsmart people or make a good product

So that would make 3 of us that held a very unpopular opinion.

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

So an arrogant, entitled white man in crisis while being an intellectual snob. There is not one thing about it that sounds like something I would ever watch. All of these posts just validate my vastly unpopular opinion that I would hate every second of the show. 

Breaking Bad is one of those shows that I can accept was probably very well made, written and acted but that I would have to be forcibly tied to a chair with my eyes glued open to make me watch it because I just don't really enjoy watching horrible people do horrible things. I feel the same about Sopranos, though, since I worked at HBO when it was on air I felt obligated to at least watch a few times. I am not a fan of that particular type of drama, which means there is very little drama on television right now I would ever want to watch. Life is filled with bottom feeders like Tony Soprano and Walter. I don't need to watch them as entertainment. It is just not my personal thing, but they do very well, which makes me think I'm probably in a minority on that. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Mabinogia

[bmoore4026]

An unpopular opinion of mine - I have never cared, nor do I still care, to watch The Sopranos in full.  Or The Wire.  Or Deadwood.  Or Girls.  Or Orange is the New Black.

Second unpopular opinion - I hate Community because that show has given people carte blanche to crap all over community colleges and the people who go there.  Not everyone can afford Harvard or Yale.  In fact, screw Dan Harmon in general. 

Third unpopular opinion - The Handmaid's Tale is great summer time show viewing.  See also Under the Dome and True Blood (the latter of which is the more enjoyable show out of the three).

Edited September 3, 2019 by bmoore4026
It was Dan Harmon and not Marc Maron who created Community. I get them confused often.

[izabella]

32 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Second unpopular opinion - I hate Community because that show has given people carte blanche to crap all over community colleges and the people who go there.  Not everyone can afford Harvard or Yale.  In fact, screw Marc Maron in general. 

I have never seen Community, and until now I had no idea it was a comedy about community college. 

I hold the unpopular opinion that I would rather watch a well-written drama about a community college than than another police/FBI/CIA, fire, medical, or pseudo-sci-fi drama.  I assume that is an unpopular opinion based on what is on tv these days.

[bmoore4026]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

I hold the unpopular opinion that I would rather watch a well-written drama about a community college than than another police/FBI/CIA, fire, medical, or pseudo-sci-fi drama.  I assume that is an unpopular opinion based on what is on tv these days.

Chicago Community College by Dick Wolf.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Yeah so I don't know that I've shared this before but for me, as a Walt detractor, I thought he got off too easy. The show is practically perfect for me but its finale doesn't rank for me as one of the best the way it does for many others.

Oh yes, he absolutely got away with it. His product was hands down the best ever and no one could duplicate it, and the family would be set for life if they could launder enough of the money.

[Annber03]

38 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Second unpopular opinion - I hate Community because that show has given people carte blanche to crap all over community colleges and the people who go there.  Not everyone can afford Harvard or Yale.  In fact, screw Marc Maron in general. 

I can't say I've seen that attitude in connection with that particular show, but given the way they kinda treated it as a place where all these dorky/failing people wound up, I can see where one might get that attitude as a result. Especially given how insufferably snobby some of the fans of the show were as it was, what with their whole "This is SO much better than what the ignorant masses watch" nonsense (and I say that as somebody who's a fan of the series myself). 

But yeah, agreed on your sentiment that looking down on people for going to community college is dumb. 

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Breaking Bad is one of those shows that I can accept was probably very well made, written and acted but that I would have to be forcibly tied to a chair with my eyes glued open to make me watch it because I just don't really enjoy watching horrible people do horrible things. I feel the same about Sopranos, though, since I worked at HBO when it was on air I felt obligated to at least watch a few times. I am not a fan of that particular type of drama, which means there is very little drama on television right now I would ever want to watch. Life is filled with bottom feeders like Tony Soprano and Walter. I don't need to watch them as entertainment. It is just not my personal thing, but they do very well, which makes me think I'm probably in a minority on that. 

I watched the first episode of The Sopranos when it first premiered, decided it was utter crap and never watched another episode. I don't even remember the pilot. Same thing with Mad Men. And I truly don't feel like I've missed a thing. Sopranos, mob family, I got my fill of that with the Corleones. Mad Men, period scumbags, completely uninterested AND Jon Hamm makes my skin crawl. I have never seen even a photo of him which did not make my skin crawl. If I lined up ten photos of random men and had to pick out which ones I thought were creepers, Jon Hamm's photo would be the very first one. 

The writing and costuming might have been fantastic, but there is nothing that could make me care about either of those shows.

Another unpopular opinion, I think Criminal Minds is hilarious. Other family members love it, so sometimes at holidays I will randomly say, "I think our unsub is, dramatic pause, a Christmas cookie cutter designer." And I actually say the words, "dramatic pause."

[bmoore4026]

Oh, and while I'm at it, I don't give a fuck about Steven Universe.  Or Rick and Morty.  Or Adventure Time.  Or Spongebob Squarepants.  Or The Transformers way back in the 80s.