S20.E09: Week 9

[awaken]

Which bible verse is tattooed on ben's side? I thought I recognized the word LORD and a verse citation at the bottom. Ironic! I'm sure his church members are so proud!

[lightbeam]

I just want to say that Lauren's valley girl voice really gets on my nerves. It makes her sound really stupid. It doesn't help, of course, that we know nothing about her except that she lives California and that she's a Flight Attendant.

[yorklee2]

I just want to say that Lauren's valley girl voice really gets on my nerves. It makes her sound really stupid. It doesn't help, of course, that we know nothing about her except that she lives California and that she's a Flight Attendant.

I don't know if I would call it valley girl. Amanda to me had more of that going on, "I mean like, he wasn't, like there for me, but like I tried to, like make it work." I have noticed that Lauren stresses her S's though. That's kind of irritating.

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

2.  Since we know now that his date with JoJo was second, it's likely that he only said he loved her because he didn't think Lauren could possibly love him, which is exactly what he said on his later date with her.  Once Lauren confessed her love, he was floored and was able to tell her what he'd been feeling for her all along, leaving his "love" for Jo-Jo in the dust.

 

3.  He may still change his mind, though.

 

That's how I read it. If Jo-Jo was first, he was probably feeling it, but part of it was an insecurity that Lauren would not return his feelings. There was just such a difference, in my viewing, in the way he actually said the words to each of them. With Jo-Jo he was calm and in control. Happy, yes, but not overwhelmed. With Lauren, he looked like he just couldn't believe it, at first, and was feeling intense emotion when he said it back to her. Then the relieved laughter of both, afterward, just felt so genuine to me.

 

 

 

I wonder why TPTB changed the order that the visits were shown? That Jo-Jo was second makes more sense though. (And how does the poster who posted this know?). I think he got caught up in the moment and told Jo-Jo, whereas I think he really does love Lauren. (And think it is quite possible that they have actually said those words to each other before). 

 

I think that the facial expressions and the complete relief that Ben showed with Lauren would have clinched the "she's winning" feeling in the viewer, if they were shown last. It's like the rule of three in fiction... repeating a theme, intensifying it for the reader each time, leads to a satisfying feeling of resolution when it reaches its necessary result on the third iteration. If the producers had shown them in the order they took place, it would have been:  Caila... relaxed, distant; Jo-Jo... relaxed, close; Lauren... intense, nerves, close, plus "Honey, I've made you breakfast!"

 

The story would have too obviously been, "Aaaaand... the winner is!" And that's not what they want to show, so they had to throw doubt in the viewers' minds by, in effect saying "Hey, he's a cad who'll just say that to anyone." 

 

I just don't buy what they're selling, because reading his face... this boy is in so deep with Lauren. Now whether he thinks he can live up to his dreams with her, might be another question. I think he feels like he's in over his head with her. He seems pretty insecure about her, so he may go with the safe bet of Jo-Jo rather than the scary, what-if-I-fail course with Lauren. I feel like he's half afraid she'll realize after the show that she is way out of his league. Not that she is... just that he thinks she is.

 

I have been in love with two men at the same time. It is possible, especially when you meet them at roughly the same time. It is especially possible if each brings out a different part of your personality that makes you feel good.

I have no problem with Ben telling 2 women "I love you." The women knew that he was "dating" other women and they all acknowledged that he had other relationships and they were nervous about them, as they should be. Lauren even said that she wondered if Ben had said the same thing to JoJo- so she was open to the possibility that he had strong feelings for both.

To me, it does not matter what they did before the engagement- especially if they were transparent, as Ben was. What counts is what happened after the final rose. Has Ben been faithful, has the love or connection deepened? If so, then the relationship should be ok today because what Ben and the F1 is feeling now is, hopefully, much stronger and deeper than what Ben and F1 were feeling back in November when this season was shooting.

 

 

I sincerely hope, that if the dates were shown out of order, that during the overnight with Lauren he told her that he'd said he loved Jo-Jo, and explained his fears where Lauren was concerned. If he was honest with her that night, then I think they'll be fine, too... since she will understand from the get-go and be able to put it behind her more easily.

 

I do think Jo-Jo's brothers are going to be pissed though. LOL

[kia112]

Which bible verse is tattooed on ben's side? I thought I recognized the word LORD and a verse citation at the bottom.

Proverbs 16:3 (with a mistake)

[yorklee2]

 

I sincerely hope, that if the dates were shown out of order, that during the overnight with Lauren he told her that he'd said he loved Jo-Jo, and explained his fears where Lauren was concerned. If he was honest with her that night, then I think they'll be fine, too... since she will understand from the get-go and be able to put it behind her more easily.

Unless Lauren is a very good actress I just don't see that scenario happening. She looked and acted a little unsettled to me at the rose ceremony when she realized JoJo seemed so happy and then Ben said something to the effect that he sent Caila away because he cared for two women and Caila wasn't one of them. She had to wonder then that maybe they're relationship wasn't as solid as she thought. Of course she realized there was one other woman left but I think in her mind she thought it was just part of the process and she had it in the bag. But for Ben to say he cared for two women.

 

He didn't have to say that. He could have said the usual blah,blah,blah that's said at the rose ceremonies. Unless he really did care for them both. At least that's what I would have been thinking if I was in Lauren's shoes. If she's not acting and he didn't tell her beforehand than I think that was a slip of the tongue on his part. Even if she initially didn't think much about it seeing the satisfied look and glow on JoJo's face had to make her wonder. They even showed next weeks clips of her saying she had doubts and she believed you could love two people at one time. So I don't believe he told her beforehand.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[CatnipBytheBay]

Lauren will get the final rose. This show is SO obviously scripted. Ben was told to tell these two ladies he loved them to make it less obvious that he will choose Lauren in the end. He's had the ultimate crush on her since she got out of the limousine. I doubt it's "love at first sight", more like the hots at first sight. She was probably his dream girl. She's cute and sweet in that southern California generic blonde look. I don't think either one of them has a personality to die for. They both seem like nice people and perhaps they'll be that 1 in 1,000 that work out and really do get married but, the odds are definitely against them.

They select certain types for the show, not types that Ben would fall in love with...they want sparks that will make the show fit its stereotypical blend. They always need someone they will select as the dragon lady that everyone will hate. You really can't feel sorry for any of these people because they've gone on the show because they're wannabe models, singers, actors, etc. At the beginning, I believe women really did go on looking for love. But, now, the show supplies ample alcohol which brings on tears when needed. There is no TV, no contact with your friends, family or the outside world, minimum contact with "Prince Charming" on dates that would never happen in the real world. You have little time to get to know him. How can you possibly fall in love? In rare instances, there may be the beginning of a relationship but, as time has proven, over and over again, most couples break up. I doubt the odds are much better for Ben and Lauren but, I wish them the best. Jo Jo will have had 4 months to get over Ben and since she really didn't spend that much time with him to begin with, hopefully her heart has mended.

Next week, some of the claws will come out. The following week will be nothing surprising. They're just teasing us as always! ;)

[AsanteSana]

Did anyone else notice Lauren walking strangely? Almost like she was injured or her back hurt?

JoJo's bronze lacy bikini was pretty great- as many of you have already mentioned: her wardrobe is on point! Stark contrast to Lauren's frumpy look this week.

[WhoAmIReally]

Did anyone else notice Lauren walking strangely? Almost like she was injured or her back hurt?

JoJo's bronze lacy bikini was pretty great- as many of you have already mentioned: her wardrobe is on point! Stark contrast to Lauren's frumpy look this week.

 

She was walking like she had a loaded diaper.  I think she and Caila are a little bow-legged and those shorts did them no favors.

[ByTor]

Has the order of the FS dates been confirmed that they were not as shown? I thought Ben said in a voiceover before the JoJo date that he already said ILY to Lauren.

OK time to be mean. I really wanted to smack the smug off JoJo's Pekingese face at that rose ceremony. And while I'm being a bitch I'd rather hear Amanda and Whitney from Chris' season take turns reading the phone book than listen to JoJo's horrid voice utter one word.

Ben has turned out to be one big cliche. No, he doesn't speak of the "journey", but he does have his own catchphrase of "incredible" (or as he says it "incredibull") and he did speak of Jamaica being a great place to fall in love. Count me in as one who thinks he did fiancé things with all three...and I'm guessing Caila is more a sex baby harp seal than panther. I guess her "mommy" lied when she said she knows Ben loves her.

[leighdear]

I took some screenshots from ABC's video of her leaving that show her wet face and eyes (and red nose), but have nowhere to host them. So here's the video.

From minute mark 2:48 on, you can see the tears on both sides of her face.  And unless she splashed on water from a bottle just perfectly, they're real. 

 

And she wears a really great brand of waterproof makeup and mascara, because we KNOW that production never gives them tissues.  

[JudyObscure]

Lauren is very pretty but she's a little bit sway-backed (which makes her rear look cute) and she's a bit bow legged and pigeon-toed which goes with that. The women's walks are something I wish the show would let us see and it rarely does. We see them almost naked in tiny bikinis, we see them with and without make-up, but we can't tell whether they have a graceful carriage or not unless we happen to get these tiny glimpses. I think it's is a big part of a woman's overall attractiveness so they should show it.

Are these women the dumbest college graduates to not have read The Rules?

Please don't tell me they're teaching that in college now? ;) When I was young I absolutely refused to "play games," to get a guy, but still I didn't ask them out either, figuring if they weren't attracted to me enough, or didn't have enough gumption to ask me out, I wasn't interested. But following those rules all the way to the altar would mean marrying someone who didn't really know you, so I don't like them very much.

Still, considering "The Rules," for TB is interesting. The show is set up for him to do the "asking out," so the only way the girl could take the initiative would be to go to his room uninvited -- the way Vienna and Courtney did. "The Rules," says don't try to be funny and don't send him little cards and notes -- the way Catherine did with Sean. Emily was a hard-to-get rules girl, but Brad was besotted with her looks from the moment she stepped out of the limo and she would have had to work hard to lose him. Even so, after the show, when Brad saw her temper he started losing interest fast. I think the same thing happened with Jef. Emily might as well bring it all out on the first date and see if it's something the guy can deal with. Maybe that's what she did with her present husband. Ashley Onion was so non-rules and while she didn't get any of The Bachelor franchise she is now happy with someone who actually "gets," her. So much better.

[kira28]

I normally just snark on reality show contestants but seeing Jo Jo's reaction to Ben's "I Love you" makes me feel terrible for her if she isn't chosen.  I think that was a very real moment and her reaction was 100% genuine. She was SO excited and shocked at the same time. The way she covered her mouth to block the camera and whispered are you allowed to say that?  It was like she took it as him assuring her she was his pick for the end. Whether she was excited over People covers and publicity or because she is truly into Ben and wants to "win" him who knows. But Jo Jo was thrilled by his proclamation of love. If he picks Lauren I will be sad for Jo Jo because what Ben did was unnecessarily cruel. If he picks Lauren I will be disgusted for Lauren because if he was truly into her as much as it seems (crying in front of her sister when asked why he likes her), staring longingly at Lauren, doing cute things with her, there is NO way he could be in love with another woman. And to lead Jo Jo or Lauren on like that is just a dick thing to do. He didn't tell Caila he loves her, he could have spared Jo Jo or Lauren. Sad that both girls think that Ben secretly (or not so) let them know ahead of time that SHE is his final choice and yet he told both chicks the same thing.

 

I think Ben is into women who don't throw themselves at him, that he has to work for.  For some reason he thinks Lauren is so much better than him. I don't get it. she's cute and quirky but not drop dead gorgeous or rich like Jo Jo.  Maybe its the fantasy of dating a flight attendant?  Lauren doesn't throw herself at him. So he is still chasing her. I think if Lauren settled down with him (if she is his pick) he would be banging other woman on the side and hurt her. 

[yorklee2]

Lauren is very pretty but she's a little bit sway-backed (which makes her rear look cute) and she's a bit bow legged and pigeon-toed which goes with that. The women's walks are something I wish the show would let us see and it rarely does. We see them almost naked in tiny bikinis, we see them with and without make-up, but we can't tell whether they have a graceful carriage or not unless we happen to get these tiny glimpses. I think it's is a big part of a woman's overall attractiveness so they should show it.

Please don't tell me they're teaching that in college now? ;) When I was young I absolutely refused to "play games," to get a guy, but still I didn't ask them out either, figuring if they weren't attracted to me enough, or didn't have enough gumption to ask me out, I wasn't interested. But following those rules all the way to the altar would mean marrying someone who didn't really know you, so I don't like them very much.

Still, considering "The Rules," for TB is interesting. The show is set up for him to do the "asking out," so the only way the girl could take the initiative would be to go to his room uninvited -- the way Vienna and Courtney did. "The Rules," says don't try to be funny and don't send him little cards and notes -- the way Catherine did with Sean. Emily was a hard-to-get rules girl, but Brad was besotted with her looks from the moment she stepped out of the limo and she would have had to work hard to lose him. Even so, after the show, when Brad saw her temper he started losing interest fast. I think the same thing happened with Jef. Emily might as well bring it all out on the first date and see if it's something the guy can deal with. Maybe that's what she did with her present husband. Ashley Onion was so non-rules and while she didn't get any of The Bachelor franchise she is now happy with someone who actually "gets," her. So much better.

I so agree with you on this Judyobscure. If I had to live my life by some rules book I would go insane. Be yourself. If you use some kind of "technique" that's not you then your true self will eventually emerge anyway and the he would be like, "she was so different when I first met her". Be yourself and let a man except you for who you are.

 

I normally just snark on reality show contestants but seeing Jo Jo's reaction to Ben's "I Love you" makes me feel terrible for her if she isn't chosen.  I think that was a very real moment and her reaction was 100% genuine. She was SO excited and shocked at the same time. The way she covered her mouth to block the camera and whispered are you allowed to say that?  It was like she took it as him assuring her she was his pick for the end. Whether she was excited over People covers and publicity or because she is truly into Ben and wants to "win" him who knows. But Jo Jo was thrilled by his proclamation of love.

I think so too. This was the first time I saw what seemed like genuine emotion from JoJo and it made her so much more appealing and likeable. Ben may have been acting/lying but I did not get a fake or acting vibe from her.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[econ07]

I kept thinking maybe the three of them should just date for awhile. They all seem to get along well. I'm now imagining Ben proposing to both of them at the final rose ceremony and both of them accepting. Now *that* would be the most Dramatic. Episode. Ever. 

 Think this was done on Seinfeld: 

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by econ07

[awaken]

Did anyone else notice Lauren walking strangely? Almost like she was injured or her back hurt?

 

She was walking like she had a loaded diaper.  I think she and Caila are a little bow-legged and those shorts did them no favors.

 

 

I was going to comment on this, too!  Lauren looked as if she was having trouble walking in those tiny tight shorts, very stiff and uncomfortable looking.  

[yorklee2]

Did anyone else notice Lauren walking strangely? Almost like she was injured or her back hurt?

JoJo's bronze lacy bikini was pretty great- as many of you have already mentioned: her wardrobe is on point! Stark contrast to Lauren's frumpy look this week.

Yes I noticed that too. Plus the fact that those shorts were way too short and barely there. Other posters have stated how her and Caila were both wearing "booty" shorts but although Caila's were short they did cover her rear and fit her so much better. Lauren's looked too little for her like she was trying to wear a size too small. Not a good look.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[CalamityBoPeep]

Has the order of the FS dates been confirmed that they were not as shown? I thought Ben said in a voiceover before the JoJo date that he already said ILY to Lauren.

 

I think the voiceovers were a result of frankenbiting. He probably said both sentences (I told Jojo that I love her. I told Lauren that I love her.) and production just switched the names out in the voiceovers.

 

Way up in the thread someone mentioned Lauren's rose ceremony dress making her look old. I think it was the shoes, actually. That dress could have been fine with a light, flat, beachy sandal, but Lauren had on massive, heavy, clunky sandals with a thick heel. First, the shoes made her walk look awkward; and second, they were way too heavy for the effect the dress was going for. I'm no Sharleen, but I feel like it just didn't work.

Edited March 2, 2016 by CalamityBoPeep

[ByTor]

Sad that both girls think that Ben secretly (or not so) let them know ahead of time that SHE is his final choice and yet he told both chicks the same thing.

Exactly...I think that was a rotten thing for him to do for the reason kira28 stated. TPTB could have edited out Ben's declarations of love, which makes me wonder if they're actively trying to make Ben look bad. Or maybe they're trying to make him not look so bland.

I think the voiceovers were a result of frankenbiting. He probably said both sentences (I told Jojo that I love her. I told Lauren that I love her.) and production just switched the names out in the voiceovers.

That makes sense.

[Luckylondon]

Although this is a first that we have seen any lead say "I love you" to 2 women, it is not the first time it has been said. I distinctly remember Brad Womack telling Emily Maynard that he loved her before the Fantasy Suite. I remember because I was shocked and thought, "Wow. He is really in to her." He said, "I love you Emily. And... you know what? I don't care if I'm not supposed to say that yet or not... I am saying it now anyway because it is true. I am in love with you." And she smiled and they kissed and romantic music soared.

Brad did take all of his final 3 to the Fantasy Suite. Emily made a statement about having time alone together "to talk more" would be good. I am fairly certain he slept with Ashley Hébert, Chantal O. and probably Emily. No one cared or gave him a hard time that I can recall.... Well, except Emily!! I remember at the After the Final Rose, Emily and Brad looked stressed a bit. They said they had not moved across the country to each other yet and "would see." Emily acknowledged watching the show was VERY difficult for her and CH joked, "Awkward Tuesday morning phone calls?" And she said, "Ohhhh No! That night!! Monday night on the phone!" And Brad gave a knowing nod and looked exhausted. He said, "ohhhhh yeah" The audience laughed and he said, "Everyone thinks Emily is the sweetest nicest thing... and she is (he recovered quickly), but she has a temper on her too!" She smiled and everyone laughed except Brad. CH asked what was the hardest part and Emily demurred and then said that if he knew the he was in love with her like he said he was... Well she didn't understand why some of those things weren't saved just for her!! Brad had no words left as this appeared to be an on going fight and he said nothing and looked defeated.

I remember this because I have watched every season and never heard anyone ever make issue of the FS concept. Well, the dark haired girl Season 1 made a big fight with Alex about it because it would make her look bad in TV ( which she accomplished anyway by fighting with him all day and night about it). I also, perhaps naïvely, never assumed the FS absolutely meant they had sex. Intimate, romantic, fun roll around time, yes. Definite sex? Nah. I always assumed this when the show started 15 years ago, as I had also spent fun nights when dating and not had sex. It never occurred to me that they ALL did as he was still dating multiple people and I figured a lot would want to hook up and have alone time, but not be ready for sex yet. Fifteen years later and wiser to the world, I agree that many or most probably have sex in the FS, especially if they think they are in love. Yet I still think it is possible to have a great night without it and leave him wanting more. No judgment either way.

What confuses me is why many are so angry with Ben for taking all 3 to the FS. Almost every single Bachelor and Bachelorette has done that in 30 seasons of the show. Emily was the first lead to act as if she demurred and declined the suite for separate rooms, but that was fake for TV and she spent the night with all 3 and definitely had sex with Ari. Sean then made it clear there would be no sex but more time together. And Andi let Chris go home early to spare him because she felt she was way further along with the other 2. But Chris Soules was with all 3-- (well he didn't have sex with Becca). So is it because Ben said I love you to two people and that seems cruel and unnecessary if you are going to break up with one in a week? Does it appear that it was a ploy to get them in the FS? Because I think they were going anyway... but their hearts did open more and make them more open for a magical (and not guarded night).

Hmmm... I think Ben IS confused and a dumbass. I think that he is a people pleaser and is not aware on a conscious level, but rather, subconsciously, that the words of JoJo's brothers hurt his own conceptualization of self. It appears that accusing him of being fake, phoney, brainwashing the girls, arrogant, and enjoying the power created great cognitive dissonance for Ben regarding who Ben thinks he is and how he has handled this process. It was a narcissistic injury in psychology speak (we all get them and it creates a reaction). My perception watching is that Ben really likes JoJo and loves hanging around her and can really talk to her. She is the cool, hot, chill chick and he often has gone to her as a touchstone to get re-grounded when he feels overwhelmed and insecure in the "journey" process. She is good for him in that sense. I think he is attracted to her and she is cute and sexy and he is falling for her. So he said, "I love you too" in the moment because he does and is falling in love with her and having the feelings and wants her (and maybe, subconsciously, her family) to know that he is for real and is genuine in his feelings for her.

Then, the next date with Lauren and she confesses her love and he says it back because he HAS loved her for awhile and is thrilled to hear her say it and has to tell her back. I agree with others who see a marked difference in the way it was said to Lauren and to JoJo. I believe he loves them both, but he is head over heels romantic love for Lauren. He is just a dumbass to say it out loud to two people on TV. I think internally he pressured himself because of wounds to his ego to tell JoJo to prove he is a good guy; yet, once he said it to her, he HAD to tell Lauren because because how can he explain that to her with the ring on her finger? (If he chooses Lauren, and I believe he will). But the whole thing looks messy. Perhaps in efforts to be a good guy and be more open with the women and not have all the power so they feel uncomfortable, he has made himself the bad guy because he said too much about his feelings and now social media mob thinks he is a phoney hypocrite?

My opinion is that he is trying his best and he is a dumbass and rather messy which makes him much less slick to me.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Luckylondon

[yorklee2]

 

Way up in the thread someone mentioned Lauren's rose ceremony dress making her look old. I think it was the shoes, actually. That dress could have been fine with a light, flat, beachy sandal, but Lauren had on massive, heavy, clunky sandals with a thick heel. First, the shoes made her walk look awkward; and second, they were way too heavy for the effect the dress was going for. I'm no Sharleen, but I feel like it just didn't work.

I didn't even notice the shoes but yeah with that dress she should have been wearing beach sandals. I think too that it needed a thin belt or some sort of wrap at the waist and slightly more fitted. The wind got under it as she was walking up making it billow out. It looked almost as if it were maturity wear. It made her look huge in that instant.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[sofiah]

OK time to be mean. I really wanted to smack the smug off JoJo's Pekingese face at that rose ceremony. 

 

 

I like Jojo, but I thought she looked really smug at the rose ceremony too, as if Ben's "I love you" proclamation meant she had won... I even thought her toast was kind of obnoxious, as well as how she asked Lauren how confident she felt (or something to that effect).  

[yorklee2]

Although this is a first that we have seen any lead say "I love you" to 2 women, it is not the first time it has been said. I distinctly remember Brad Womack telling Emily Maynard that he loved her before the Fantasy Suite. I remember because I was shocked and thought, "Wow. He is really in to her." He said, "I love you Emily. And... you know what? I don't care if I'm not supposed to say that yet or not... I am saying it now anyway because it is true. I am in love with you." And she smiled and they kissed and romantic music soared.

Brad did take all of his final 3 to the Fantasy Suite. Emily made a statement about having time alone together to talk. I am fairly certain he slept with Ashley Hébert, Chantal O. and maybe Emily. No one cared or have him a hard time that I can recall.... except Emily!! I remember at the After the Final Rose, Emily and Brad looked stressed a bit. They said they had not moved across the country to each other yet and "would see." Emily acknowledged watching the show was VERY difficult for her and CH joked, "Awkward Tuesday morning phone calls?" And she said, "Ohhhh No! That night!! Monday night on the phone!" And Brad gave a knowing nod and looked exhausted. He said, "ohhhhh yeah" The audience laughed and he said, "Everyone thinks Emily is the sweetest nicest thing... and she is (he recovered quickly), but she has a temper on her too!" She smiled and everyone laughed except Brad. CH asked what was the hardest part and Emily demurred and then said that if he knew the he was in love with her like he said he was... Well she felt that some of those things should have been saved just for her. Brad had no words left as this appeared to be an on going fight and he said nothing.

I remember this because I have watched every single season and never heard anyone ever make issue of the FS concept. I also, perhaps naïvely, never assumed it meant they had sex. I always assumed this when the show started 15 years ago, as I had also spent fun nights when dating and not had sex. It never occurred to me that they ALL did as he was dating other people and gross! Fifteen years later and wiser to the world, I agree that many or most probably have sex in the FS especially if they think they are in love, yet I still think it is possible to have a great night without it and leave him wanting more. No judgment either way.

What confuses me is why many are so angry with Ben for taking all 3 to the FS. Almost every single Bachelor and Bachelorette has done that in 30 seasons of the show. Emily was the first lead to act as if she demurred and declined the suite for separate rooms, but that was fake for TV and she spent the night with all 3 and definitely had sex with Ari. Sean then made it clear there would be no sex but more time together. And I let Chris go home early to spare him because she felt she was way further along with the other 2. But Chris Soules was with all 3-- he didn't have sex with Becca. So is it because he said I love you to two people and that seems cruel and unnecessary if you are going to break up with one in a week? Does it appear that was a ploy to get them in the FS? Because I think they were going anyway... but their hearts did open more and make for a magical (and not guarded night).

Hmmm... I think Ben IS confused and a dumbass. I think that he is a people pleaser and is not aware on a conscious level, but rather, subconsciously, the words of JoJo's brothers hurt his own conceptualization of self. Accusing him of being fake, phoney, brainwashing the girls, arrogant, and enjoying the power created great cognitive dissonance for Ben of who Ben thinks he is and how he has handled this process. It was a narcissistic injury in shrink speak (we all get them and it creates a reaction). My perception watching is that Ben really likes JoJo and loves hanging around her and can really talk to her. She is the cool, hot, chill chick and he often has gone to her as a touchstone to get re-grounded when he feels overwhelmed and insecure in the "journey" process. She is good for him in that sense. I think he is attracted to her and she is cute and sexy and he is falling for her. So he said, "I love you too" in the moment because he does and is falling in love with her and having the feelings and wants her (and maybe, subconsciously, her family) to know that he is for real and is genuine in his feelings for her.

Then, the next date with Lauren and she confesses her love and he says it back because he HAS loved her for awhile and is thrilled to hear her say it and has to tell her back. I agree with others who see a marked difference in the way it was said to Lauren and to JoJo. I believe he loves them both, but he is head over heels romantic love for Lauren. He is just a dumbass to say it out loud to two people on TV. I think internally he pressured himself because of wounds to his ego to tell JoJo to prove he is a good guy; yet, once he said it to her, he HAD to tell Lauren because because how can he explain that to her with the ring on her finger? (If he chooses Lauren, and I believe he will). But the whole thing looks messy. Perhaps in efforts to be a good guy and be more open with the women and not have all the power so they feel uncomfortable, he has made himself the bad guy because he said too much about his feelings and now social media mob thinks he is a phoney hypocrite?

My opinion is that he is trying his best and he is a dumbass and rather messy which makes him much less slick to me.

Excellent summary LuckyLondon. I think that's what happened also and it makes sense. I too don't understand all the upset because he slept with all 3 women in that it happens on this show all the time. I posted as much way up thread. I do agree that the fact he told both ILY was a dumb move. I think that's what has most viewers upset but I think he really believes he loves them both (for the reasons you excellently stated) and only realized afterwards what a mess he had created. He was dumb and immature but I don't think he intended to be callous.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[poopchute]

Yeah I think the messed up part is the saying I love you to both. Because it almost never happens on the show, the women are probably thinking that this means they are the one. And maybe they slept with him BECAUSE he said that and they are assuming he isn't saying that to multiple women. Are they wrong to assume that? Maybe. But I can see why they would think that he is saying this to only them and that he must really mean it because the bachelor rarely even says it to one woman let alone two. I might feel misled if I found out he said that to another woman mostly because I don't really think you can be in love with two people so I would kind of feel like maybe he said that just so I would sleep with him.

[ljenkins782]

You know, I didn't actually see the dress on the floor, so that did not factor into my conclusions. And I, too, have had sleep-overs without anything approaching intercourse. To my mind, it was just made explicit by the show by virtue of Bachelor code norms. 

 

Yeah, I don't find it impossible to spend the night with someone without sex either, but in this case, I do think he slept with all or most of them. 

 

It seemed like Caila came very, very close to flat out saying that they had sex by her cagey questions about "this week" and whether or not he knew he was letting her go. 

 

At least Ben is trying not to use "amazing," although he is subbing in Chris Soules' "crazy" quite a bit. At least he did last night. He can at least speak a sentence, even if his pronouns are whack.

 

I'm rewatching a few scenes on the site now and he really does overuse "crazy" quite a bit. He also says "should of" and "would of" which drives me up a wall. 

 

FInally, I really do hope that Calia is not the B'ette. She is too much of a people pleaser, too smiley, she will never really let her guard down and tell the men what she thinks. I found Kaitlyn's season refreshing in that way- for the men she was not interested in, she escorted them out then and there and did not wait for a rose ceremony. Calia will wait for a RC and then afterwards want to walk out with the men and make them feel better. Boring.

 

I don't know about that, Caila showed a few flashes of temper that I think could be interesting, like telling Ben that he was feeding her lines when letting her go. Granted, she does it passive-aggressively with a smile on her face, but she does say things that aren't complete people pleasing words. 

 

To me, it does not matter what they did before the engagement- especially if they were transparent, as Ben was. What counts is what happened after the final rose. Has Ben been faithful, has the love or connection deepened? If so, then the relationship should be ok today because what Ben and the F1 is feeling now is, hopefully, much stronger and deeper than what Ben and F1 were feeling back in November when this season was shooting.

 

That's an easier said than done sentiment though. It's completely true that he didn't actually do anything wrong, he wasn't going behind anyone's back, but not only do they have to know that his feelings weren't strong enough for him to say goodbye to the other person but they also have the chance to actually SEE the other relationship play out. I couldn't fault anyone for struggling with that aspect. 

 

Did anyone else notice Lauren walking strangely? Almost like she was injured or her back hurt?

 

She was walking strangely, but like others, I assumed it was those extremely tight, short shorts. 

 

A lot of her fashion choices are odd, she seems to favor 2-piece ensembles with an exposed midriff, which often look a bit trashy. 

 

Speaking of odd fashion choices, Caila's pastel sports bra-like top was strange. Was it a bathing suit top? 

[deSchenke]

What I noticed about Caila, fashion-wise, was that when she and Ben were entering the water the bottoms of her bikini looked like boy shorts.  Then you see her from the side and it's completely different.  I guess the editors didn't like how much rear she was showing.  Another thing about Caila is instead of Bitchy Resting Face, she has Smiling Resting Face.  And the comparison to Clare was spot on.  She gushes when she speaks!

 

Lauren's fashion choices were sad.  The comparison of the two women standing side-by-side at the RC really made her look bad.  The red dress did her no favors and she looked extremely flat chested next to JoJo (wouldn't we all!) - but that dress just emphasized it.  I also noticed she has vocal fry when she speaks - didn't notice the over enunciation of "s" as others have stated.

 

I just don't see Ben and JoJo being a couple.  Initially, he couldn't keep his hands off of her and that seemed all there was to his connection (drink!) with her.  He totally lights up when he's around Lauren.

[ByTor]

Speaking of odd fashion choices, Caila's pastel sports bra-like top was strange. Was it a bathing suit top?

That's what I assumed, although you're right, it did appear a bit like workout wear.

[yorklee2]

 

I don't know about that, Caila showed a few flashes of temper that I think could be interesting, like telling Ben that he was feeding her lines when letting her go. Granted, she does it passive-aggressively with a smile on her face, but she does say things that aren't complete people pleasing words.

I agree. Plus the producers are sure to work in plenty doses of drama. They always find a way especially if they think the lead is perceived as boring. So I say give me the authentically nice lead and see what happens because there's always going to be people upset with something about whoever they pick. They're fake, mean, boring, to wimpy, to callous,..etc. Take your pick. Personally I don't like a cold calculating lead. Plus aesthetically Caila is beautiful.

[JenE4]

Just watching now and didn't read the comments yet, but I presume all of this has been covered:

Ben and Caila already have nothing to talk about and spending the day together is weird. Pretty apparent she's not one of the two he's in love with. And she thinks Ben just can't tell her he loves her back...except he's going to say I love you to every other contestant left on the show. Might as well have someone come in frame with a hook and drag her off stage right. Bye, Caila. Good luck with your emotional unavailability issues that your daddy gave you by dragging you to a new school every year of your life so he could climb the corporate ladder, causing you to fear getting close to anyone because you know you'll just be ripped away from them.

Baby sea turtles?!? Quite the animal upgrade over the swimming pigs that tried to trample them to death. Ben gushing over Lauren. I thought he was going to tell her right on the beach that he loves her. He's obviously crazy about her; complete opposite of how he was with Caila--receptive of hearing what she had to say, but no effort in expressing any feelings of his own, and especially not first. Ah, my Wrong Reasons heart just grew like the Grinch's and I shed a tear over Ben saying he's known for a while that he's in love with Lauren, too. This is the most Right Reasons season I can remember...but then they have to remind us coming up he's in love with JoJo, too. I'm solidly a Wrong Reasons viewer, and I'm over here hoping that the "in love with two people" is creative editing and that Lauren and Ben will have the truest Right Reasons love in Bachelor history!

"Jojo, I love you, too." And just like that, Ben has turned this into the most dramatic season in Bachelor history, and my black Wrong Reasons heart starts beating again. Since all roads lead to Mesnick, I think Lauren is the Melissa (perfect on paper) but Jojo is the Molly (the one despite the "flaws," such as an insane family).

Caila is showing up unannounced to proclaim her love, and she's totally going to get herself sent home right now! My newfound Right Reasons heart is saying, "Noooooooooo!" but my Wrong Reasons self is saying, "YES!" Caila still giggles and smiles when she's crying. Put on a happy face to make friends at your new school, Caila! But this will be NOTHING compared to sending home one of these two after professing his love!

[saber5055]

To me, it does not matter what they did before the engagement- especially if they were transparent, as Ben was. What counts is what happened after the final rose. Has Ben been faithful, has the love or connection deepened?

Yes. Exactly. Just like IRL, what your dearly beloved did before your engagement or marriage has nothing to do with your relationship now. It's what he (or she) might do AFTER taking vows that matters.

 

Fleiss loves the did-they-or-didn't-they controversy stirred up by the FS. For all we know, some PA put those clothes on the floor. Everything we are allowed to see is to manipulate us, get us talking and get the show ratings. I could care less what these people do in their private lives. I strongly disliked Kaitlyn, but could care less that she slept around while on the show. And Nick spilling the beans? Who cares. If you don't want to suffer the consequences, don't do the deed.

Which bible verse is tattooed on ben's side? I thought I recognized the word LORD and a verse citation at the bottom.

I thought the tat looked like a bar code with an "Open Here" inscribed below it.

The women's walks are something I wish the show would let us see and it rarely does. We see them almost naked in tiny bikinis, we see them with and without make-up, but we can't tell whether they have a graceful carriage or not unless we happen to get these tiny glimpses. I think it's is a big part of a woman's overall attractiveness so they should show it.

Do men really care: 1. how women walk or 2. how women look in (or out) of a bikini?

 

I'm voting No. 2 all the way.

 

London, I remember that Brad/Emily ATFR episode too. Ouch.

Edited March 2, 2016 by saber5055

[wovenloaf]

I don't know about that, Caila showed a few flashes of temper that I think could be interesting, like telling Ben that he was feeding her lines when letting her go. Granted, she does it passive-aggressively with a smile on her face, but she does say things that aren't complete people pleasing words. 

I did like when she did that! I typically find her kind of bland and robot-ish, but I did like that short scene. He tried to say he'd miss her presence or some mess, and she just said, "That sounds like a line." Then he said some other bland thing, and she just kind of curtly said, "You don't have to say that." I am a fan of any small glimpse of someone NOT eating up Ben's dumb fake nice-guy routine that we can get!

[yorklee2]

I did like when she did that! I typically find her kind of bland and robot-ish, but I did like that short scene. He tried to say he'd miss her presence or some mess, and she just said, "That sounds like a line." Then he said some other bland thing, and she just kind of curtly said, "You don't have to say that." I am a fan of any small glimpse of someone NOT eating up Ben's dumb fake nice-guy routine that we can get!

Exactly, and we have always seen the changes as the previous season's contestant goes on to become the lead. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, or a little of both. The very stress of trying to handle and date 25 or so men would be sure to bring out more instances of that flash of temper we saw.

 

Ben and Caila already have nothing to talk about and spending the day together is weird. Pretty apparent she's not one of the two he's in love with. And she thinks Ben just can't tell her he loves her back...except he's going to say I love you to every other contestant left on the show. Might as well have someone come in frame with a hook and drag her off stage right. Bye, Caila. Good luck with your emotional unavailability issues that your daddy gave you by dragging you to a new school every year of your life so he could climb the corporate ladder, causing you to fear getting close to anyone because you know you'll just be ripped away from them.

 

Caila is showing up unannounced to proclaim her love, and she's totally going to get herself sent home right now! My newfound Right Reasons heart is saying, "Noooooooooo!" but my Wrong Reasons self is saying, "YES!" Caila still giggles and smiles when she's crying. Put on a happy face to make friends at your new school, Caila! But this will be NOTHING compared to sending home one of these two after professing his love!

I had never thought of this being the possible reason for Caila's distance. Thanks for pointing that out. It makes so much sense. She was always gracious and polite with everyone, (I even noticed on the river raft ride when her and Ben stepped out she took the time to tell the navigator, "nice to meet you". Remarkably nice manners yes but could it also be another example of wanting to please everyone? If so then it makes me even more so want her to find someone who genuinely loves her.

Edited March 2, 2016 by yorklee2

[ljenkins782]

I did like when she did that! I typically find her kind of bland and robot-ish, but I did like that short scene. He tried to say he'd miss her presence or some mess, and she just said, "That sounds like a line." Then he said some other bland thing, and she just kind of curtly said, "You don't have to say that." I am a fan of any small glimpse of someone NOT eating up Ben's dumb fake nice-guy routine that we can get!

Yeah, I'm a little meh on Caila typically, but the two times I really liked her were that last confrontation and the time she told him that he was putting her on the spot by demanding that she emote something other than happy smiles on command. 

[ByTor]

I thought the tat looked like a bar code with an "Open Here" inscribed below it.

Not to offend anybody, but I'm not a fan of "word" tattoos, I prefer pictures.

[poopchute]

Yes. Exactly. Just like IRL, what your dearly beloved did before your engagement or marriage has nothing to do with your relationship now. It's what he (or she) might do AFTER taking vows that matters.

Eh, I don't know. In my real life I certainly would have cared if my husband had sex with and/or told other women he loved them while we were dating but before we were engaged. I know this show is nothing like real life and by default he is dating/kissing/maybe having sex with other woman at the same time but I guess it's unusual that he's telling two women he loves them at the same time...I don't know why that rubs me the wrong way more than just having sex with two women but it does.

[tinderbox]

I just want to say that Lauren's valley girl voice really gets on my nerves. It makes her sound really stupid. It doesn't help, of course, that we know nothing about her except that she lives California and that she's a Flight Attendant.

 

 

I don't know if I would call it valley girl. Amanda to me had more of that going on, "I mean like, he wasn't, like there for me, but like I tried to, like make it work." I have noticed that Lauren stresses her S's though. That's kind of irritating.

It's her "Vocal Fry"

Drives me nutty!

Also, they ALL (including Ben) say "like" constantly. If you listen for it you will know what I mean.

[yorklee2]

 

 

It's her "Vocal Fry"

Drives me nutty!

Also, they ALL (including Ben) say "like" constantly. If you listen for it you will know what I mean.

I had to look up what, "vocal fry" was since I confess I didn't know what the term meant. Now I understand and yes that's exactly what she has! The examples I saw sound exactly like her.

[OldWiseOne]

Do men really care: 1. how women walk or 2. how women look in (or out) of a bikini?

 

I'm voting No. 2 all the way.

 

I'm sure I read somewhere that the audience for this show wasn't 100% made up of men ;)

[kazza]

I did like when she did that! I typically find her kind of bland and robot-ish, but I did like that short scene. He tried to say he'd miss her presence or some mess, and she just said, "That sounds like a line." Then he said some other bland thing, and she just kind of curtly said, "You don't have to say that." I am a fan of any small glimpse of someone NOT eating up Ben's dumb fake nice-guy routine that we can get!

 

Ben reminds me so much of a former co-worker, also in his mid-20s when I knew him. Great first impression, polite, sensitive, and a seemingly nice guy until there was an issue. Then, it was *always* someone else's problem. Zero personal responsibility / empathy for others.

 

I see some of the same behavior with Ben - getting upset at Jubilee's (very real) reactions, pushing Caila to emote. If he's not feeling it with one of the ladies, he should own it. No one's expecting him to fall in love with 26 women. Just don't blame the woman.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two remaining women did something "wrong" (in his eyes) during their final dates, which will form the basis of elimination. My hunch is JoJo will be the unlucky recipient of blame. Lauren has played this very smoothly.

[thehepburn]

 

 

I think Ben is into women who don't throw themselves at him, that he has to work for.  For some reason he thinks Lauren is so much better than him. I don't get it. she's cute and quirky but not drop dead gorgeous or rich like Jo Jo.  Maybe its the fantasy of dating a flight attendant?  Lauren doesn't throw herself at him. So he is still chasing her. I think if Lauren settled down with him (if she is his pick) he would be banging other woman on the side and hurt her. 

 

 

Hey Ben!  The 1970s called to tell you that Lauren aint all that. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

In this episode, Ben saw Lauren's odd ungainly awkward walk in those shorts that probably fit her nicely when this season started, and heard her newly scratchy no-tenor, no-inflection voice, and little cute Jojo started looking better and better to him.... abracabradabra, he loves Jojo too! In real life Lauren would be his steady girlfriend and Jojo his secret side for a few years until Jojo wised up.

Edited March 2, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[MsPH]

Yes I noticed that too. Plus the fact that those shorts were way too short and barely there. Other posters have stated how her and Caila were both wearing "booty" shorts but although Caila's were short they did cover her rear and fit her so much better. Lauren's looked too little for her like she was trying to wear a size too small. Not a good look.

 

I think all her clothes looked a size too small this week, but that's because she's clearly gained some weight during the show. Most of them do, since the mansion is filled with junk food and they have nothing else to do except sit around eating and drinking booze. JoJo seems to have fared better on that front.

 

I read an interview with Caila where one of the questions was this:

 

Glamour: Once you got in the car,and then got back out to talk to Ben, it feel like you wanted to maybe ask him about your night together. I was just angry as a viewer because—and I don't know if you guys slept together or not—but if you did, and he knew he was going to say goodbye to you, that would upset me.

Caila: [Laughs] No, it's OK. I'm not going to tell [if we slept together], but we did stay up all night and got to know each other better, which meant a lot. It was very intimate. No part of me wanted to question him about our overnight, just because...

 

Now I don't know if she's just trying to toe the company line since she's in the running for the Bachelorette, but if people assumed I had sex with someone who dumped me straight after and I really didn't, I'd quickly set them straight. It's not kissing and telling if there was no kissing.

[himela]

I'm too suspicious but nothing can shock me in this show. What if Jojo knew she was not the one and they told her to play along after the I love you line so they have a good story for her to become The Bachelorette? I have watched Unreal and I know these things can happen in reality TV. They always need a storyline for the leads anyway. "Jojo who was told by Ben he loved her and then chose another girl now is ready to find a guy who will love ONLY her".

[leighdear]

JoJo should know that the odds of her NOT becoming the Bachelorette are very high.  Because if Ben doesn't pick her, she goes back home to Chad or onto BIP3 in 3 months.  

 

And while of course, it's possible to make her the new Bachelorette, they haven't done that to the #2 girl since Trista in 2002.   WHY would they change everything for JoJo when they haven't changed it for anybody in 14 YEARS?   

 

I still maintain Caila gets the spot.  I don't really care, I like them both.  And I'll watch, just as I always do.  

Edited March 2, 2016 by leighdear

[GracieK]

Didn't Ben turn down fantasy suite sex with Kaitlin, and she thought he might be a virgin because of it?  Or am I mixing up the conversations they had?  Anyway, I had the impression that he turned down sex due to a moral/religious reason, so I haven't automatically assumed that sex took place with these 3 ladies.. then again maybe he just wasn't truly into Kaitlin.

[thehepburn]

As a "fan" who has watched since S1 E1, it's been my experience that if the show is trying so hard to imply that sex happened in the Fuck Suite, then it didnt happen. One prime example is Firestone & TinaFab's overnight when heavy panting was overlayed over the lights going out. They has just kissed for the first time in the hometown date so that one was extremely obvious.

 

It usually when the show is trying so hard to say that sex didnt happen like Saint Emily refusing to even go to the Fuck Suite with Arie that it turns out that sex did happen.

[violet and green]

Perhaps in efforts to be a good guy and be more open with the women and not have all the power so they feel uncomfortable, he has made himself the bad guy because he said too much about his feelings and now social media mob thinks he is a phoney hypocrite?

My opinion is that he is trying his best and he is a dumbass and rather messy which makes him much less slick to me.

 

There's an angry mob on social media? Yikes. I don't think he's phoney or particularly hypocritical, but he's a very unformed personality still.

 

I agree, he's just doing his best and bumbling his way along. He's pickled on alcohol most of the time and is getting a bit blurry around the edges and I think is very confused by the process.

 

I have seen some red flags, those little flares of anger and indignation whenever he's challenged or questioned by a woman, etc - but hey, I ain't marrying him! and I only got to recognize the small red flags c/- my ample experience with men of far worse character and intentions than good ole boy Ben.

[Luckylondon]

Didn't Ben turn down fantasy suite sex with Kaitlin, and she thought he might be a virgin because of it? Or am I mixing up the conversations they had? Anyway, I had the impression that he turned down sex due to a moral/religious reason, so I haven't automatically assumed that sex took place with these 3 ladies.. then again maybe he just wasn't truly into Kaitlin.

No. It was confusing and spanned over episodes as Kaitlyn had rose ceremony's in the middle of episodes and to be continued's and such. On their 1:1, the week before the FS dates, Kaitlyn and Ben talked about past relationships and he said he was in love once. He talked about things important to him and Kaitlyn asked how he felt about the FS coming up. He said that it didn't have to be all about being physical and it is an opportunity to spend more time together and know each other more or something similar. Kaitly then said, "Ben, are you a virgin?" and giggled. He looked a little stunned and put on the spot and said, "No. I'm not." I am not sure if he wanted his sexual history for his family, friends, church, community to see on ABC prime time, but he seemed like, "okaaaaaay... she went THERE." The next week he did go to the FS with Kaitlyn, as did Nick and Shawn. I have no idea or inkling if they had sex. It wasn't made obvious to me either way.

[Luckylondon]

There's an angry mob on social media? Yikes. I don't think he's phoney or particularly hypocritical, but he's a very unformed personality still.

I agree, he's just doing his best and bumbling his way along. He's pickled on alcohol most of the time and is getting a bit blurry around the edges and I think is very confused by the process.

I have seen some red flags, those little flares of anger and indignation whenever he's challenged or questioned by a woman, etc - but hey, I ain't marrying him! and I only got to recognize the small red flags c/- my ample experience with men of far worse character and intentions than good ole boy Ben.

violet and green, perhaps I should edit my post as I may be incorrect. I inferred from posts here, that Ben was taking a lot of heat on social media because multiple people stated examples of him being given a hard time and going from well-liked to perhaps more mass dislike than Juan Pablo who at least was always honest that he didn't have feelings of love for anyone. I don't use Twitter much or follow the show on any social media, so I was taking the information from the posts here that he was getting skewered, as many do when they make a misstep in the social media age. I used the term "angry mob" regarding reactions to Ben telling 2 women he loved them as an idiom as a way to say "the town folks are upset with good boy Ben" and his treatment of the ladies. I didn't mean to imply that it was more serious than that and that there are literal shouting mobs over Ben's actions. I hope this clarifies my statement/post.

I agree that he is bumbling along, getting lost in the process and his feelings and it is getting messy in a way he did not intend and is not going to be good for him.

[kingshearte]

2. Ben is definitely not calling one of the girls back on the phone (preview for final rose). I bet he is calling Lauren's dad for approval to take her hand in marriage. He is head over heels with her.

I really hope not. I find that practice so utterly gross and regressive that I told my now-husband that if he asked my father, I would say no. Do people in real life still do that as often as they do in TV and movies?

 

Edited to add: why do a lot of people assume that all three women had intercourse with Ben? Don't all the last women standing (so to speak) spend the night in the FSs? I haven't watched for several years but they certainly used to. One can certainly spend the night without 'going all the way' to use an oldfashioned term. Also isn't this pretty much the only time they get to spend alone without cameras in tow? One would think at this point in the game each would want that time for that reason alone.

I don't necessarily assume that they for sure did, but I think the combination of the cameras being off so we really don't know for sure one way or the other and the perhaps lingering idea that you might get dumped for not "going all the way" just fuels the imagination. Plus, there have been after-the-fact reactions that pretty strongly suggested that things happened, often enough that it's not hard to extrapolate to include all of them. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I'm pretty sure, if I were in an F1 position, I would have a very hard time watching the guy's behaviour all the way through, right up to that moment, and not at the very least having suspicions and thinking about what he might have gotten up to in there.