S02.E11: She Hates Us

[helenamonster]

Speaking of which, was that a new car Connor was driving?

 

Yes; Frank got rid of the old one because it would have physical evidence from Sam's murder in it.

[ShadowSixx]

Why are these characters so damn repulsive with the exception of Oliver. The K5 acting all rebel like when Anni is the one keeping their asses out of prison, so they really need to take several damn seats. I hear the Astrodome has plenty of seats for them to sit in. Now look at them running to Anni to fix the video problem. They're so co-dependent it's not even funny. They don't like Anni and her self interest but go running to her to serve their self interest and to not go to prison. They're so damn lame.

 

Oh dumbass Frank, see what happens when you let a spatula get in your ass, idiot. Should have kept that to himseslf.

[marceline]

Connor: Phillip's back.

Me: Wait, who's Phillip? That guy? I didn't know he was "gone."

 

As much as I understand why Wes was on a psych hold, I refuse to believe that any doctor would've tried to deal with him in his clearly insomniac/manic state. He would've been given something to relax him.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Annalise is Caleb's birth mom.

[starri]

How could she be his birth mother?  He's clearly not ten.

[darkestboy]

A little better than last week. The flashbacks with Frank and Bonnie and Sam and a pregnant Annalise were interesting.

I knew there was a reason that Annalise went after Rose and this episode revealed, so good one there.

Maybe they should've left Wes in the psych ward. I am liking Laurel more and more though and the confession from Frank about Lila I didn't see coming.

Connor and Oliver and the way they tried to deal with Asher was amusing enough. Michaela and Caleb, a bit meh that scene.

Philip clearly sent Connor that little video at the end of the episode, right?

Main case of the week was one of the better ones, shame the ratings are terrible at the moment though, 8/10

[dgpolo]

At the beginning of the series I tried to keep coming up with ways the K5 could be 'redeemed' and go on with their lives in a 'normal' way. After I realized this was not what the show was about and just relaxed to let the insanity flow, I enjoyed both the show and the K5 much more.

If they take away Connor/Oliver I will probably stop watching.

Don't love Wes, don't hate him.

I was 100% sure Laurel's tears were fake, I was sure she was looking for something to hold over AK so she wouldn't be 'fired'

AK grabbing the statue last week to defend herself was just more proof (for me) that she delivered the fatal blow to Sam when Wes was out of the house.

I wondered if Nate had a cobbler in his bag of goodies for Anna.

I'm pretty positive Sam was changing his shirt after an assignation.

Didn't someone mention that AK needed an OK from her Dr to fly? I agree she looked 3rd trimester if not full term.

[thelonerafter]

I honestly have to wonder if Ana is just a magnet for murder, I mean by showing us that Bonnie was an intern and Frank an assistant (glad to finally know his real job) it seems like whoever is around her just gets sucked in, yet she wasn't there for any of the actual murders. It is just so weird to me, she's the common connection all of these murderers have yet she hasn't actually done anything, at least to our knowledge. I don't blame the Keating 5 for their behavior, I'm not sure how to word it, but I imagine they are feeling a whirlwind of emotions and I'm sure that's clouding their decisions. 

Connor and Oliver continue to be cute.

I wish Michaela had more screen time, the actress is so beautiful IMO and I love her scenes with Connor, they seem to click so well. 

I also really enjoyed the COTW, I found the concept of forgiveness and taking responsibility really interesting contrasted with the K5. But, I found it interesting even on its own, like I would honestly probably watch a show based on that idea (not sure how that could be a show, but I'd watch it)

[Eolivet]

After this episode, I've come to the conclusion that while Annalise is the foundation of the show (as house, for this metaphor), the Keating 5 are the walls, and I guess Bonnie and Frank are the roof. I don't know if it's structurally sound or makes sense, but basically -- the walls can wobble, but the house will stay up, and the roof can fall off, but the house stays up -- but if the foundation crumbles, it all falls down.

 

Right now, the show is shaking the foundation, the walls and the roof -- and I can only take so much shakiness. I want at least one thing to be solid.

 

The show's ratings are declining by the week, which could partly be a result of Scandal going down, but I also think there is only so dark you can get before unfortunately, viewers start dropping off. Showing a heavily pregnant woman 10 years ago, who we are pretty certain has no children of her own now generally only means bad things.

 

I really hate when "network television" is used as some kind of descriptor that generally implies safe or bad television, but I have to admit...that kind of thing does not happen on network television.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Eolivet

[Beezella]

Here's how cynical I have become about this show: I suspected in the COTW there was more going on than appeared. Maybe the mother and the murderer were in cahoots to kill the son, and the mother was trying to get him out of long jail time, shades of Pamela Smart. Fortunately not.

 

I'm not surprised it's loosing viewers, combination of the darkness, the complete lack of levity this season, the long hiatus, and the densely stacked Thursday night lineup. I think I'm ready to cut it loose after this season. I'm only hanging on because I think there are only 4 more episodes.

[secnarf]

As much as I understand why Wes was on a psych hold, I refuse to believe that any doctor would've tried to deal with him in his clearly insomniac/manic state. He would've been given something to relax him.

Wes definitely wasn't manic. The only symptom he had was lack of sleep, and he clearly didn't have lack of NEED for sleep, which is what happens in mania.

I actually thought the psych hold was interesting - I'm not familiar with American laws, but where I live, the involuntary hold (a "Form 1") is 72 hours (not 120) and a comment like the one Wes made is not enough to automatically put you on a Form 1. The doctor has to believe you are imminently at risk of harming yourself or someone else. You can tell a doctor you are suicidal, and that alone is not grounds for a Form 1. You can only be held voluntarily if you or someone else is at imminent risk of harm. The doctor said she believed Wes when he said he was just joking, and later on mentioned it was a joke in the conversation with Laurel, so the grounds would have been somewhat shaky and I believe Wes easily could have challenged it. So, was this a plot device where the doctor had to hold Wes, or is that actually the way American laws work?

At any rate, I agree that they definitely would/should have given him Ativan or Imovane or something to help him sleep while he was there, and it seems very odd that they didn't (or at least, we didn't see it). It stands to reason that his mood would improve considerably if he got some sleep.

 

 

How could she be his birth mother?  He's clearly not ten.

While I strongly doubt she is Wes or Caleb's birth mother, we haven't seen anything explicitly saying she's not. It obviously wouldn't be the pregnancy in the flashbacks, but she could have been pregnant in the past. Just because they're not ten years old, that doesn't exclude her from being one of their birth mothers.

 

Here's how cynical I have become about this show: I suspected in the COTW there was more going on than appeared. Maybe the mother and the murderer were in cahoots to kill the son, and the mother was trying to get him out of long jail time, shades of Pamela Smart. Fortunately not.

I never thought of this, but if it wasn't already such a dark show, I think I would have liked this better. It would have surprised me, at least, and it's more original than the storyline they went with. And, I felt they were a bit heavy handed with the "message" of the COTW. But, given all of the darkness and cynicism already present in the show, I didn't mind a lighter, more hopeful COTW to offer a bit of balance.

[Black Knight]

When Laurel said Frank wasn't her boyfriend, I was hoping she meant that as in he's still just a fuckbuddy to her. But the Frank/Laurel train continues onwards. Sigh...

 

It was so weird to see Annalise being nice to Bonnie in the flashbacks. I did think it was hilarious when Annalise told Laurel that she doesn't need her anymore because she has her old Bonnie back - the woman she did nothing but criticize and complain about last week (same as ever). Their current dynamic is so weird and seeing how they were ten years ago has brought me no closer to understanding. I did notice that Bonnie didn't seem to be fixated on Annalise back then - she obviously liked her, wanted to do well in her job, etc. but it was normal, not the teary crawling-on-her-knees/obsessive devotion stuff we've seen since. I am really curious about what happened that so warped their dynamic.

 

The COTW was well-done. With TV shows I tend not to be a fan of COTWs, often FFing them, but I think this show needs them for a break from the overall craziness of the main plots.

[vanarnd1]

 

The show's ratings are declining by the week, which could partly be a result of Scandal going down, but I also think there is only so dark you can get before unfortunately, viewers start dropping off. Showing a heavily pregnant woman 10 years ago, who we are pretty certain has no children of her own now generally only means bad things.

 

 

I agree, I still enjoy the show a lot but I could see how it can get to be too much for viewers at some point. And I don't really know what the show does from here. They are teasing the Annalise/Wes backstory, but how long can Wes really remain on the show considering he is pretty much at a breaking point? The problem with making all of the characters do bad things is that at some point they reach a point of no return. I feel like there almost has to a reset at the end of the season, but what they really have a  different murder next season with new characters? It seems like the limits of the show's premise are starting to show themselves.

[tennisgurl]

I still quite like the show, but I agree that it needs a little more levity, or at least some breaks. The story is just so complicated, and everyone is lying all the time, it can be hard to keep things straight. 

 

I liked seeing the flashbacks of a better time for Sam and Annalise. It makes their relationship seem more real, knowing they actually had something before it all went to shit. 

 

I still quite like the K5. They're all deeply messed up, but, honestly, its amazing they arent way worse. Law school on its own can drive a person to some dark places, let alone all the other crap they have dealt with, most of which they just kinda stumbled into. I can forgive a few break downs here and there.  

[represent]

Well for me personally, I was watching election coverage, that's why I missed it live. I also watch Shades Of Blue with Liotta and Lopez which is on at the same time. It says a lot because I haven't watched a drama on NBC for at least fifteen years, maybe more. It's  definitely a show that doesn't have you overthinking, it's an easier watch for folks who feel this show is just too confusing. But I watch Viola live, now that she's back. But this week I was watching election stuff and couldn't pull myself away to watch this show or any show live.

 

But I'm not losing interest in this show.  Yet, I still don't get what foul play went on with Wes' mother?  I still don't get what the big deal was, and how/why she killed herself. Anna leaves an envelope at his door, clearly it was on the case she worked years ago, having something to do with his mother. But what?  They have had all this build up and I still don't get what the big reveal was exactly. They've devoted way too much time to this Wes, so that better not be all there is.

Edited February 21, 2016 by represent

[Dr Epi]

I was going to quit the show last week but I had some free time today and thought I would give it a go.

 

Not a bad episode. I really enjoyed seeing a lighter side of Annalise and Sam, of the previous K5.  Reminds me of what I liked more in the first season.

 

I don't know if Shonda is so busy with 3 shows + developing another show (or 2), but both HTGAWM and Scandal have both been going down hill.  There is too much emphasis on plot, often plot that does not make sense, and a loss of character.  Characters are now doing things that make no sense to fit into plot contrivances.   

[Dowel Jones]

I suspected in the COTW there was more going on than appeared.

 

I was thinking that she would waiting to put a bullet in him as he walked out of the courthouse.

[secnarf]

But I'm not losing interest in this show.  Yet, I still don't get what foul play went on with Wes' mother?  I still don't get what the big deal was, and how/why she killed herself. Anna leaves an envelope at his door, clearly it was on the case she worked years ago, having something to do with his mother. But what?  They have had all this build up and I still don't get what the big reveal was exactly. They've devoted way too much time to this Wes, so that better not be all there is.

They're nowhere near done with the storyline, and we're not supposed to "get" what happened with Wes' mother yet - only that her death may not have actually been suicide and it seems Annalise and Eve were involved, and it all revolves around this federal case that they're all somehow involved in. I don't think they've had a "big reveal" since the last scene before the break, and that gave more questions than answers - it has mostly just a bunch of little reveals.

And I put this in the spoilers/spec thread, but

Pete Nowalk said in an interview that Rose's death is the murder that this half of the season deals with, so although I'm pretty sure Wes genuinely believes it was suicide, it would seem that that's not the case

[LydiaMoon1]

I still quite like the show, but I agree that it needs a little more levity, or at least some breaks. The story is just so complicated, and everyone is lying all the time, it can be hard to keep things straight.

 

I still like the show a lot, but I agree it needs more moments of levity.  It's been that way from the beginning.  In fact, I thought they should have made Elizabeth Perkins' character (from season 2, maybe?) a regular. She was comically outrageous.  I thought she would have made a great friend/sounding board for Anni and fill a niche that I think the show still needs.  Annie needs a confidante other than Bonnie (because that relationship is too weird) and Eve (because that relationship is complicated by the fact that they're former lovers).

 

 

I liked seeing the flashbacks of a better time for Sam and Annalise. It makes their relationship seem more real, knowing they actually had something before it all went to shit.

 

I liked those scenes too.  I am still struck by the fact that everyone was so much happier and "lighter" back then. What in the heck happened to these people in those 10 years?

 

I still quite like the K5. They're all deeply messed up, but, honestly, its amazing they arent way worse. Law school on its own can drive a person to some dark places, let alone all the other crap they have dealt with, most of which they just kinda stumbled into. I can forgive a few break downs here and there.

 

During season one, I used to complain that they should cut a few of the K5.  I don't feel that way anymore.  They've all become interesting to me in different ways.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Whoa: A Couple Of People In How To Get Away With Murder Almost Do The Right Thing!
By this show's standards, Frank and Laurel are basically Father and Mother Teresa now.

[Mreid]

I felt sorry for Wes this episode :(   Asher too, even though he is kind of a clown/the outcast I still like him. 

[Milaxx]

I am so tired of these whiny students. Poor Asher though. He killed that woman, but I feel for him. In some ways, he is so much more innocent than the rest of the students. 

 

Laurel can do so much better Frank. Why won't she just walk away? She would much better off with Wes. 

 

Oliver and Connor are still adorable despite everything.

I don't think any of the are more or less guilty than others. After all Asher did have the events at Trotter Lake in his past. They are just a group of people making one bad choice after another. In may ways Wes is right, he should have confessed. Most of what they have done since has been to cover that up and only served to dig them deeper and deeper into trouble.

 

They barely know Wes, they barely like him, but now they're all so concerned about him?  Not that I think they should wish him ill will or anything, but why the continued bending over backwards to make sure he's Ok?  He's such a tool.

 

Now that that's off my chest.  I was kind of bored with the first half of this episode, but it sure did pick up at the end.

I think they've realized with Asher and Sinclair that they have to stay together. Part of what allowed Sinclair to get close enough to Asher to blackmail him over Trotter lake was that they often left him out. 

 

 

Really? Why? She wasn't home. He didn't call ahead to see if she was in. She didn't make him do anything. It not like she was home, looked out him on the steps and just would let him in. Or did I fall asleep again? Earlier I said I need to see the episode again (maybe fast forward it at least).

I don't think that Caleb really meant what he said about just wanting to get laid. It seemed to me that he was hurt by what Michaela said to him. And honestly, as good looking as he is and heir to billions, I doubt he has trouble getting laid. I think he was caring about her but got hurt when he felt manipulated by her and AK.

....

I don't trust Caleb. I do think he's attracted to Michaela, but she had a point. He did wait until after they slept together to tell her about the gun. I also keep remembering that time he went for a run but when they got arrested he told them he as home with Catherine all evening. 

 

....

 

I don't know if Shonda is so busy with 3 shows + developing another show (or 2), but both HTGAWM and Scandal have both been going down hill.  There is too much emphasis on plot, often plot that does not make sense, and a loss of character.  Characters are now doing things that make no sense to fit into plot contrivances.   

Shonda isn't the showrunner or writer for HTGAWM.  Pete Nowalk is. Shonda is Exec. Producer

 

I liked this week. In fact I find broken Wes a lot more interesting than puppy Wes.  I don't think Annalise kills her baby, but I do think something tragic happened to the baby. I'd even venture to say that was the beginning of the end of the Keaton marriage. Although I also found it suspect that Sam came in fixing his shirt. For some reason I think he may have been less than professional when he was treating Bonnie.  Sam has a history of cheating and both Bonnie and Annalise spoke of Bonnie having an attraction to Sam. I also found it rather endearing that Frank confessed to Laurel. Yes murder is awful, but they are are awful people at this point. With all the lying and covering up they are doing, Laurel wants to know what she has with Frank is genuine. That confession was him pulling the walls down and being honest. That's what worries me about Connor and Oliver. Oliver has no idea that they killed Sam or the shenanigans that took place at the Hapstall mansion. Their entire relationship is build upon a lie. Connor goes on and on about being "good". (Seriously, what is up with that?) What is he going to do if Oliver ever finds out all murdering and cover ups the K5 have committed? 

[rubinia]

 

What is "ish?"

It's a non-vulgar way to say "shit." As in, "That ish was cray."

[theatremouse]

I actually thought the psych hold was interesting - I'm not familiar with American laws, but where I live, the involuntary hold (a "Form 1") is 72 hours (not 120) and a comment like the one Wes made is not enough to automatically put you on a Form 1. The doctor has to believe you are imminently at risk of harming yourself or someone else. You can tell a doctor you are suicidal, and that alone is not grounds for a Form 1. You can only be held voluntarily if you or someone else is at imminent risk of harm. The doctor said she believed Wes when he said he was just joking, and later on mentioned it was a joke in the conversation with Laurel, so the grounds would have been somewhat shaky and I believe Wes easily could have challenged it. So, was this a plot device where the doctor had to hold Wes, or is that actually the way American laws work?

At any rate, I agree that they definitely would/should have given him Ativan or Imovane or something to help him sleep while he was there, and it seems very odd that they didn't (or at least, we didn't see it). It stands to reason that his mood would improve considerably if he got some sleep.

I'm not completely clear on the exact law, although I thought it was presented as 72 hours here as well? But I took the doctor's comment being more so...I know you're trying to play it off as a joke but I don't think you were entirely joking. Like the kind of thing where someone says something in a jokey tone even though they mean it but will hope you won't notice. But she noticed. At least enough to be concerned he might mean it. So I think she did have genuine concern he might be a danger to himself or others.

On the other hand, at first when she didn't want to just give him sleeping pills when he basically begged for them, I assumed she was cagey about doing so because she was concerned he was just aiming for drugs and not being completely forthcoming about his symptoms. So if he's just aiming for drugs, I can see why her response would not be to just give him drugs. I think it was a weird situation where she was concerned about him from sort of two angles and kind of...tried to take action that wouldn't necessarily cave/cause harm on either side. So: if he really were just looking for drugs, she didn't want to give him any. And if he really were a danger, she didn't want to let him leave. Maybe she thought he might have already taken something and didn't want to give him more lest she facilitate...who knows what.

Not saying her actions were necessarily a good choice or the most appropriate choice for a doctor (I don't know enough about this to say) but I could see some sort of internal logic to what she did.

Edited February 24, 2016 by theatremouse

[Dr Epi]

 

Shonda isn't the showrunner or writer for HTGAWM.  Pete Nowalk is. Shonda is Exec. Producer

True that Shonda is not the showrunner or main writer for HTGAWM but she is Exec Producer and unless this is just an honorific title (as it is for others in other shows), that means that at least some of her attention goes to this show which means she should take some level of responsibility for when the show loses focus and just becomes a hot mess of plot contrivances and character missteps. If she can accept the good acclaim that HTGAWM got in the beginning when she was an EP, she she also has to accept some of the negative criticism now. 

 

It is clear that Betsy Beers, her producing partner, and also an EP on HTGAWM, is still involved with the show as evinced in the podcasts. So I stand by what I wrote- with Shonda being so busy with her other shows and developing new shows, she might not have the time or energy to help with HTGAWM, either directly or through Pete Nowak.  And that is a pity for both of them.

[secnarf]

I'm not completely clear on the exact law, although I thought it was presented as 72 hours here as well? But I took the doctor's comment being more so...I know you're trying to play it off as a joke but I don't think you were entirely joking. Like the kind of thing where someone says something in a jokey tone even though they mean it but will hope you won't notice. But she noticed. At least enough to be concerned he might mean it. So I think she did have genuine concern he might be a danger to himself or others.

On the other hand, at first when she didn't want to just give him sleeping pills when he basically begged for them, I assumed she was cagey about doing so because she was concerned he was just aiming for drugs and not being completely forthcoming about his symptoms. So if he's just aiming for drugs, I can see why her response would not be to just give him drugs. I think it was a weird situation where she was concerned about him from sort of two angles and kind of...tried to take action that wouldn't necessarily cave/cause harm on either side. So: if he really were just looking for drugs, she didn't want to give him any. And if he really were a danger, she didn't want to let him leave. Maybe she thought he might have already taken something and didn't want to give him more lest she facilitate...who knows what.

Not saying her actions were necessarily a good choice or the most appropriate choice for a doctor (I don't know enough about this to say) but I could see some sort of internal logic to what she did.

I thought they explicitly said 120 hours for the hold, but I might have misheard.

If the doctor thought Wes wasn't joking, then it's "in her judgement", not "because you said that I have to hold you". She implied that it was automatic and she had no choice, which infringes on patient rights (depending on how the law is written, I suppose). And then, how does Wes telling the doctor about his mother decrease his suicide risk to the point where she then feels safe to release him? She didn't arrange any follow up.

 

Even if you think a patient is drug seeking, if they have a valid indication for a drug, you need to treat them. Wes was held overnight, she would have seen that he's not sleeping, and regardless, giving him one pill while he's in hospital is not going to lead to him selling them, and if she thought he was addicted, stopping cold turkey is really not the way to go and in that case he probably would have asked for something specific.

 

That part of the storyline really just didn't make sense to me, and I don't see the purpose of having him in a psych ward. Of course, we might just not know the purpose yet - it may come back later on - but it just seemed full of holes and arbitrary.

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by secnarf

[theatremouse]

If the doctor thought Wes wasn't joking, then it's "in her judgement", not "because you said that I have to hold you". She implied that it was automatic and she had no choice, which infringes on patient rights (depending on how the law is written, I suppose).

I think maybe we just disagree on what she meant by it. Even though she literally said "I wish you hadn't said that; now I have to hold you." I didn't think she literally meant it was just because he said it in general. To me the way the actress played it read like she was saying "I wish you hadn't said that because now that you've said it my judgement is...stay here" the implication being that before he'd said it she wasn't worried (or was maybe on the fence) and after he said it she was convinced otherwise.

[Milaxx]

The involuntary hold laws vary from state to state. In PA minimum is typically 72 hours, but can be as long as 120 before a hearing is required.  I suspect that Wes probably would have been discharged after 72 hours if Laurel hadn't come in lying and Wes hadn't omitted experiencing any trauma from Annalise's shooting.

 

I do agree Wes should have been given sleeping pills while he was in the hospital under care. It would have been a good method of treatment because hopefully discussions with the therapist would have been better after he was able to get  some rest. I've had insomnia, you really can get a little cray after a few days of not sleeping. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[represent]

True that Shonda is not the showrunner or main writer for HTGAWM but she is Exec Producer and unless this is just an honorific title (as it is for others in other shows), that means that at least some of her attention goes to this show which means she should take some level of responsibility for when the show loses focus and just becomes a hot mess of plot contrivances and character missteps. If she can accept the good acclaim that HTGAWM got in the beginning when she was an EP, she she also has to accept some of the negative criticism now. 

 

It is clear that Betsy Beers, her producing partner, and also an EP on HTGAWM, is still involved with the show as evinced in the podcasts. So I stand by what I wrote- with Shonda being so busy with her other shows and developing new shows, she might not have the time or energy to help with HTGAWM, either directly or through Pete Nowak.  And that is a pity for both of them.

It's interesting, I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't watch Grey's anymore and I can only stomach Scandal for about five minutes. Meanwhile, this show is still must see tv for me.

[KaveDweller]

I thought they explicitly said 120 hours for the hold, but I might have misheard.

 

I thought they specifically said 3 days, but easily could have misheard that. I already deleted in from my DVR so I can't double check.

[Milaxx]

SECNARF, ON 23 FEB 2016 - 8:50 PM, SAID:

I thought they explicitly said 120 hours for the hold, but I might have misheard.

 

I thought they specifically said 3 days, but easily could have misheard that. I already deleted in from my DVR so I can't double check.

Just rewatched. When Laurel threatened to file an injunction too get him out, the doctor stated that the judge wouldn't review the case until after 120 hour hold.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[pennben]

If she can accept the good acclaim that HTGAWM got in the beginning when she was an EP, she she also has to accept some of the negative criticism now.....with Shonda being so busy with her other shows and developing new shows, she might not have the time or energy to help with HTGAWM, either directly or through Pete Nowak. 

 

The thing is though, Shonda has always made very clear that this is Pete Nowak's show, she has done that since the very beginning when it was being heaped with praise.  She's always deferred to him in the press and elsewhere. One of my favorite lines she said about the show is that she sees it as a grandchild, Pete brings it in to tell her what he's doing, she holds the grandbaby for a bit and loves it and then gives it back to Pete.

 

As EP and having her name attached, she was very important for the show being picked up and for getting Viola Davis to sigh on, but I believe both her and Nowak when they say that this is his story and his "baby", if you will.

[wanderingstar]

It's interesting, I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't watch Grey's anymore and I can only stomach Scandal for about five minutes. Meanwhile, this show is still must see tv for me.

Right there with you. This is the only Shondaland show that I never miss. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[jhlipton]

I don't think any of the are more or less guilty than others. After all Asher did have the events at Trotter Lake in his past.

Asher wasn't involved with the rape -- he was too incapacitated to stop it, and listened to his lawyer dad about not calling the police right away. To a certain extent, DA Smugface took advantage of Asher's better nature, making him feel more guilty than perhaps he was. Coming right after his father's suicide (or murder), it's no wonder he snapped.

 

And he made the same mistake -- asking a lawyer with no ethics what to do instead of going to the police.  He might have been charged, but then he'd be out from under all the thumbs holding him down.

[Milaxx]

I understand the situation. He still allowed and took advantage of the coverup and continued to do so when Sinclair put the screws on him. Even if I was willing to give a pass to youthful indiscretion on the events at Trotter Lake, his failure to come clean when Sinclair was blackmailing him makes it worse for me because now he does know he was wrong not to report it and still doesn't come forward. Instead he cuts a deal to keep his name of it. That makes him just as bad as the others in my eyes. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[Kira53]

The involuntary hold laws vary from state to state. In PA minimum is typically 72 hours, but can be as long as 120 before a hearing is required.  I suspect that Wes probably would have been discharged after 72 hours if Laurel hadn't come in lying and Wes hadn't omitted experiencing any trauma from Annalise's shooting.

 

I do agree Wes should have been given sleeping pills while he was in the hospital under care. It would have been a good method of treatment because hopefully discussions with the therapist would have been better after he was able to get  some rest. I've had insomnia, you really can get a little cray after a few days of not sleeping.

A psychiatric hold is based up imminent danger to yourself or others. That plotline was not based on real practice. At the least, you need a plan, means and immediate intent for a doctor to place a 3 day hold. I agree with other posters that Wes would be treated for his insomnia with meds not just conversation. The dialogue with the resident was not realistic - the tone was wrong. I did also wonder whether it was a setup for a future relationship. If so, the resident would be in ethical problems - but Wes would be back in a relationship that was problematic, as usual.

[Milaxx]

I know I'm watching a fictional tv show. I was responding to the question as to  whether psych hold was 72 or 120 hours. I know how psych hold work.  If we want to nitpick we should of seen an attending at some point but we didn't.