S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[quarks]

Bad things:

 

1. Ok, Oliver, if Malcolm can figure out that William is your son, then Felicity can too. So maybe - just maybe - before asking Felicity to marry you in a couple days, you might want to think about calling Samantha and suggesting a change in plans.

 

2. And then, Oliver, while you're chatting with Samantha, you can mention to her - just casually - that oh, yes, an evil mass murderer now really hates your guts and has promised to make you live in eternal pain and knows about William because I am fairly certain that this is information that she needs to know.  I mean, look, Oliver, I don't like Samantha much either, but are you really not going to let her know that Malcolm Merlyn is after her kid? That's worse than lying to Felicity about this.

 

3. I can't help but believe that someone like the Calculator wouldn't have been as clumsy about leaving his tech stealing device around - either trying to plant it later, or planting a smaller device.

 

4. So, Poppy. You have a magical stone that the evil guy wants for evil purposes. Do you a) remember that you're his prisoner, and therefore he can take anything of yours he wants, b) hide it from the guy, to halt his evil plans, or c) wave the magical stone in his face?  If you're thinking c, you, too, can become doomed for death on an evil island!  

 

(And to think, in the present day timeline, we were all criticizing Oliver for being stupid. I apologize, present day Oliver. I apologize. I'm sure Malcolm and Felicity would too if they'd known about Poppy's rock stunt.)

 

5. Flashback Oliver, I'm not exactly the world's greatest expert on romance, but I'm pretty sure that talking about how much you're still hurting after confessing to murdering her brother was maybe not the best way to establish a relationship.

 

6. Also, I thought Flashback Oliver was supposed to be going dark right now. Why is anyone, including Poppy, pushing him towards the light?

 

7. And now the flashbacks appear to be heading for something TRULY exciting: digging! 

 

Oooh, the suspense.

 

Maybe you should consider trying to destroy the Chinese economy again, flashbacks. Just a thought.

 

6. This might be just me, but I was kinda looking forward to Thea getting to deal with her bloodlust on her own, instead of having a bunch of people fight over her cure.  And why not tell her that you just cut off her father's hand, Oliver? She's just had a magical flower potion. She can handle hearing about terrible things!

 

7. Given how many huge fight scenes end up happening on that same street, you'd think Star City citizens just wouldn't go anywhere near it at night. I'm amused that the alleyway that used to be outside Verdant and occasionally outside the police station is now next to that street, though.

 

8. Not enough Diggle.

 

And now, Laurel!

 

After several episodes of making us suffer through her terrible decision making, poor Laurel spent tonight's episode suffering from everyone else's bad decision making. I even, for the first time since her scene with Sara's little toy shark, found myself feeling for her when, as she made a gallant attempt to talk Nyssa into Oliver's terrible plan, made critical because of Malcolm and Ra's and Thea's terrible decisions, she found herself surrounded by assassins. That was sad. And even her three good moments (jumping down from the roof to stop Nyssa; negotiating Oliver's plan with Nyssa, and immediately moving to hug Thea and start getting the girl back to a normal life) could not conceal that this was still a night of Laurel Fails Again or Is Otherwise Mostly Useless.

 

This character. This poor character.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a district attorney, one: Did everyone note that when Felicity called law enforcement to have her father arrested, she didn't contact Laurel?  I assumed because Felicity wants the Calculator to stay in jail.  Solid planning, Felicity. Solid planning. 

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, four: 1) failing to notice the other assassins hiding in the shadows when she went to talk to Nyssa; 2) delaying Nyssa and her allies for just long enough to let the entire group get attacked by Malcolm's people, 3) getting ambushed again during the street scene, 4) not anticipating that two groups of hostile ninjas might just break out into a fight.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, one-half: Not exactly from this episode, but clearly negotiations might have gone a bit smoother had Laurel not disregarded Nyssa's advice a few episodes ago and left Nyssa in a LoA dungeon despite calling Nyssa her friend, a failure explicitly called out in the script.

 

Number of times Laurel just stood there being useless and was also assaulted by some unfortunate blocking and direction, two: 1) On the rooftop scene, where she was just...there. To be fair to her it was not clear why anyone from Team Arrow other than Oliver was there - they probably would have been more effective watching from a different room, but then again they've been on this roof so much that maybe they just feel comfortable there. To be less fair to her, this meant that in more than one moment, she stood there, rigidly, while characters beside or behind her reacted to events. I think the intent was to convey that after getting ambushed four times in one episode, Laurel was on the alert, but unfortunately, it came off more as Laurel being completely unaware of everything around her. 2) In the final confrontation between Nyssa and a handless Malcolm. I'm assuming Laurel was there as Nyssa's sorta friend and the person who had convinced Nyssa to take the deal, but in that particular scene, she did pretty much nothing, and I think that scene would have been made more powerful with fewer people.

 

Number of times Laurel didn't get to join the My Father Is a Supervillain and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt Club: Just one. Just one. On the other hand, Laurel, having a non-supervillain father does seem to be one of the very few things you have going for you in this show. Cling to that.

[BkWurm1]

I actually had a horrible thought about Malcolm and the defunked League, but I'm not sure I want to put it out into the universe.  Let's just say that the League does go by another name at some point.  Oh please oh please let us not ever find out about that on this show though.

Oh let's tempt fate.  Are you perhaps talking about the League of Shadows???

 

Boring flashbacks are boring. Still wondering if Oliver can grow the crazy beard and hair in S5.

 

I'm still rooting for the hair and beard to be faked. 

 

The flashbacks were about as bad if not the worst they've ever been.  I had to force myself to watch them I was so bored and while I've been bored before this was somehow worse.  The only moment I perked up was when Reiter told Poppy she had to tend to Oliver like a brother and for a brief moment I had the hope that that meant no, she's not going to end up sleeping with her brother's murderer.

 

I don't like Poppy.  It's beyond that she's a very dull character but her grabbing Oliver's decorative stone and trying to trade it to save her life reminded me of her getting a few of her fellow slaves killed from her self preservation.  Now that she's been reminded that Oliver is her only ally, now she kind of doesn't care about him killing her brother.  It's like she flipped a switch.  I'm fine with her either forgiving Oliver or holding it against him but they circled around to forgiveness fast enough that I worry about her being bi polar. 

 

I think the reason the flashbacks were extra torturous this week was one- then never left the cell and Oliver didn't even stand up.  Half the time he didn't move his face at all.  The other reason I think the flashbacks seemed extra bad was because I was soo freaking bored with the LoA war and the negotiation between Oliver and Malcolm and then Nyssa and Laurel and then Oliver and Nyssa and then back to Oliver and Malcolm and then of course Malcolm blew everything up so they had more conversations about the same thing we had already talked about.

 

At least Felicity and Oliver both found their answers to their problems from something the other said.  I did enjoy that a lot. 

[Commando Cody]

Whose going to be keeping Malcolm Merlin's hand in a jar?

[JenMD]

Laughed hysterically when the Arrow writers asked if Twitter broke after Oliver's sudden but inevitable betrayal.

Aw, bless their little hearts. 

 

Shallow things: Felicity/EBR looked stunning in that green dress. Also, I don't like Oliver's beige puffy coat. That needs to be burned. ASAP.

That jacket was AWFUL.  Who let that on set?  I think it was the most unflattering thing he's ever worn.  And I really dislike the new Arrow suit, but this was worse than that, even. 

 

My .02 on the "marriage" is it dissolved with the LOA.  May we never hear about it again.

[statsgirl]

I love Nyssa, serving truth-tea to all.

 

Malcolm telling Oliver he's very handsome but dumb?  Not surprised he feels that way since Oliver's IQ drops about 60 points every time he gets near Malcolm.

Oliver has obviously never heard of toxic parents given how much he wants to keep Malcolm alive.

 

When Malcolm reneged on the deal with Nyssa, I thought Oliver should have done more reading, like the fable of the scorpion and the turtle.

.

If the LoA is gone, does that mean that Nyssa is no longer married to Oliver since it was an LoA ceremony?

 

I hate that Malcolm said that William is the person Oliver loves most in the world. What about Felicity? And Thea, who he kept trying to save Malcolm for?  Hopefully he was just saying that to manipulate DD.

 

Keto Shimizu really loves Laurel. Still, Nyssa got to remind her of being left in the prison because of her.

 

I don't like that Felicity's Dad storyline got blown through so quickly but I do like that she totally sees the bad in him, unlike Thea and Nyssa.

 

3. Felicity thinking her father leaving her had anything to do with her as a child.  As someone who hasn't seen their dad since they were about the age Felicity was when her father took off - I can assure you, that it is not a requirement that a kid would grow up thinking there was something wrong with them.  I never once thought me not knowing my dad had anything to do with me and I don't know why Felicity would feel that way. I'm not nearly as awesome as she is - that's a BS writing moment.

 

It's not the child's fault but it's very common for children to think that it is.  Why would he leave unless I'm not good enough?  insecurity has been a theme for Felicity since she thought that Walter was going to fire her when really he just wanted her for a special project.  And then she felt that she wasn't good enough for Oliver while leggy model-types like Isabel and fighters like Sara were.   I wonder if she'll be less insecure now that she knows her father left because of his failings, not hers.

 

Did Oliver really say he's lost 4 people he cared about and loved?  I'm counting 6, there's Robert, Shado, Sara, Yao Fei, Akio, and Slade.  I guess they could say that Slade and Yao Fei aren't among them, but that goes against everything we saw.

Four people since Robert died, which I thought was Shado, Sara, Akio, Yao Fei and Slade. I guess Slade got kicked off the list when he turned evul.

[wonderwall]

Oliver looking to Felicity before chopping off Malcolm's hands was ad libbed by Stephen and Emily. THOSE IDIOTS. 

 

 

Further proof that it's the actors that made this couple so amazing. 

 

https://twitter.com/BenSokolowski/status/697645293433540608

[Guest]

What annoys me most about this Malcolm is Thea's father crap, is that he's only been around as her dad for the last year or so and even then he mind-raped her to murder Sara. The rest of the time Thea had an actual dad in Robert and a father figure in Walter. So this excuse that Oliver can't kill him because he's Thea's dad just doesn't sit right with me, not just because he's a mass murderer but because I just don't see him as her dad. 

[quarks]

I don't like Poppy.  It's beyond that she's a very dull character but her grabbing Oliver's decorative stone and trying to trade it to save her life reminded me of her getting a few of her fellow slaves killed from her self preservation.  Now that she's been reminded that Oliver is her only ally, now she kind of doesn't care about him killing her brother.  It's like she flipped a switch.  I'm fine with her either forgiving Oliver or holding it against him but they circled around to forgiveness fast enough that I worry about her being bi polar. 

 

She certainly didn't do herself any favors tonight. That rock trade made Oliver's decision to let Malcolm go look good in comparison. (Still a bad choice, Oliver.)

 

I think part of the problem is that Arrow doesn't seem to have decided who Poppy is, other than "slave on the island who can cook lizard and knows something about diving." The second problem is that she's the first flashback character to have - apparently - very little to teach or tell Oliver (even fellow castaway Sara had learned things from Ivo) apart from the diving thing, which was just one episode. The third problem is that she's the first flashback character to have - apparently - very few goals of her own, even by the very low standards of Shadowspire's new goal of "dig things up."  So, without any background or goals, we get this "you killed my brother!" "But you can save everyone!" thing from tonight.

[Guest]

Oliver looking to Felicity before chopping off Malcolm's hands was ad libbed by Stephen and Emily. THOSE IDIOTS. 

 

 

Further proof that it's the actors that made this couple so amazing. 

 

https://twitter.com/BenSokolowski/status/697645293433540608

 

Makes me love them even more because EBR totally went along with it. Shows how well they work together. 

[BkWurm1]

8. So, it's been weeks or possibly months since Flashback Oliver called into ARGUS, right? Why, exactly, is Flashback ARGUS not following up on the presumed disappearance of one of its agents? Did they get as bored with this storyline as Arrow fans?

 

I've been paying as close attention as I can baring having to actually go back and watch all the flashbacks again, but I sincerely believe only about a week has passed in FB time since Oliver saved Poppy from being killed.  Not sure how long it was between Oliver landing, getting his job, and faking Poppy's death, but since then, time has crawled. 

[Lady Calypso]

Oliver looking to Felicity before chopping off Malcolm's hands was ad libbed by Stephen and Emily. THOSE IDIOTS. 

 

 

Further proof that it's the actors that made this couple so amazing. 

 

https://twitter.com/BenSokolowski/status/697645293433540608

 

And further proof why some shows desperately need their actors to have more input into the decisions of storylines/episodes/arcs/whatever. Sometimes, they know best.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[gpgurl50]

Malcolm is responsible for Tommy's death and 502 other people.  He is also responsible for Robert Queen's death, Oliver ending up on the island, and Sara going through hell before he brainwashed Thea to kill her.  The man is evil and deserves all the blame we can lay at his feet.  I'm pretty sure he's responsible for global warming and children starving in China as well.

 

It really bothers me that Ollie did not bring this up when Malcolm declared his vengeance.  Like "sorry, did I take your power (which I gave you) and cut off your hand after giving you numerous chances to surrender?  Then I guess we're even given all the stuff you've already pulled, Malcolm!"  Instead, Malcolm is going to get his daughter's nephew killed.  Super solid parenting.

[BkWurm1]

It really bothers me that Ollie did not bring this up when Malcolm declared his vengeance.  Like "sorry, did I take your power (which I gave you) and cut off your hand after giving you numerous chances to surrender?  Then I guess we're even given all the stuff you've already pulled, Malcolm!"  Instead, Malcolm is going to get his daughter's nephew killed.  Super solid parenting.

Sometimes I'm a little slow, it only just now occurred to me that Malcolm's vengeance is trying to set Oliver up in the same situation as Malcolm feels he was.  He told Oliver there were bigger things at stake than just one person, even if that one person was his daughter and then asked Oliver if he'd hand over the city and let DD do whatever he wants even if William was the one at stake.  Well that's the exact scenario that Malcolm is orchestrating, isn't it. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by BkWurm1

[tarotx]

Whose going to be keeping Malcolm Merlin's hand in a jar?

Captain Jack Holding on to 10's hand Reference? That's all I could think about after the hand went flying off.

 

I like this episode. The fast pacing wasn't too overwhelming in the episode. Though I do wish we got the Lance&felicity talk about her dad. Family drama can be nice some times.

 

The Nyssa and Laurel talks weren't as beautiful or intimate as I imagined. 

 

Oliver and Felicity was sweet this episode.

 

I did really wish Diggle and Laurel would remember that they don't think Oliver is the leader and that they could kill Malcolm. Diggle may not be Deadshot but he can still use a gun. Malcolm needs to die. Oliver is incredibly stupid when it comes to family.

Edited February 11, 2016 by tarotx

[johntfs]

 

(speaking of her claim that she could never beat him, didn't she beat him fair and square in S3?  So, that's a lie)

 

Nyssa and four other League of Assassin, um, assassins took him down and captured him via team attack.  Nyssa beat him by doing the opposite of "fair and square."

[lemotomato]

OK, I'm getting kind of ragey over the end of the last Olicity scene, and I'm hoping to get talked out of it.

 

I've managed to not let the BM secrets and lies ruin my appreciation for Olicity scenes, all the way up through even the last one, until Oliver's re-proposal. I remember how much we worried about the BM lie tainting the original proposal, and that mostly didn't come to pass because the lead up during the episode was so great and it happened kind of under extenuating circumstances. But tonight Oliver proposed while fully aware of the original lie, all the lies he's been telling when he's been visiting the kid, and the fact that the kid is not a secret anymore. But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

[SleepDeprived]

^ As much as I want to help talk you down from the BMD plottiness ruining Olicity scenes, I'm afraid my reading of that last scene is somewhat similar to yours. That Oliver wanted to get married right away before the shit hits the fan so Felicity won't leave him. And it's leaving a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, too, even as I'm still trying really hard to ignore everything related to the BM until I absolutely have to deal with it.

 

Sometimes I'm a little slow, it only just now occurred to me that Malcolm's vengeance is trying to set Oliver up in the same situation as Malcolm feels he was.  He told Oliver there were bigger things at stake than just one person, even if that one person was his daughter and then asked Oliver if he'd hand over the city and let DD do whatever he wants even if William was the one at stake.  Well that's the exact scenario that Malcolm is orchestrating, isn't it. 

 

Ohhh yeah. Good insight. I'm still pretty tired of Malcolm's shenanigans, though, and he should die or disappear for a very long time.

 

Can I just say, though, that was a very impressive prosthetic hand of Malcolm's that got cut off. Not enough blood to be believable but the hairs on the hand when they did the close-up gets a B+ for realism. Would've given an A but I don't think Barrowman is that hairy IRL.

 

What a waste of that Lotus elixir, though. There's, at least, 200-300 ccs left in that bag before Thea's IV line was disconnected. Team Arrow should try to keep that, just in case, the bloodlust plot gets recycled in the future.

[Xenith22]

I hate that Malcolm said that William is the person Oliver loves most in the world. What about Felicity? And Thea, who he kept trying to save Malcolm for?  Hopefully he was just saying that to manipulate DD.

Well yeah...I mean obviously Malcolm was not going to put his own daughter in DD's crosshairs.   Plus DD already almost killed Felicity which the potential for her death was not enough to get Oliver to drop out of the race or do whatever else he wanted.   So from DD's perspective the only way to get to Oliver would be to try to threaten someone he cared about more than his fiance?   (Although really not sure why he could not just kill Oliver at this point...whatever)

 

Still really worried about Diggle being in the grave...the fact that he was the first one to urge Oliver to kill Malcolm in this episode worries me.    William/Samantha still does not make sense with Oliver asking Felicity if she is okay first in the limo.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Xenith22

[Chaser]

When Noah dropped the Overwatch bomb on Felicity, I thought she looked startled and a little angry, but looking at a gif set she honestly looked scared as she started to wheel away. Suddenly it occurred to me that she couldn't run. He was her father, but she didn't know what he would do or truly what he was capable of. But she did know that he could be dangerous and she couldn't get away from him if she needed too. 

 

As much as I'm not a fan of the paralysis arc, there is so much potential there that they aren't exploring. 

[catrox14]

Commando Cody, on 10 Feb 2016 - 8:47 PM, said:

    Whose going to be keeping Malcolm Merlin's hand in a jar?

Captain Jack Holding on to 10's hand Reference? That's all I could think about after the hand went flying off.

 

YES! Nice!

[Chaser]

OK, I'm getting kind of ragey over the end of the last Olicity scene, and I'm hoping to get talked out of it.

 

I've managed to not let the BM secrets and lies ruin my appreciation for Olicity scenes, all the way up through even the last one, until Oliver's re-proposal. I remember how much we worried about the BM lie tainting the original proposal, and that mostly didn't come to pass because the lead up during the episode was so great and it happened kind of under extenuating circumstances. But tonight Oliver proposed while fully aware of the original lie, all the lies he's been telling when he's been visiting the kid, and the fact that the kid is not a secret anymore. But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

I don't disagree. I think he feels the foundation shake on him and he is starting to cling to her. I don't think it changes how much he loves her or how much he wants to marry her. It's just so sad. This entire arc. I'm actually worried watching it will lower my IQ.

 

Seriously considering not watching the next few episodes. This episode was so much of what I didn't want. The contrived villain mess, the BMD coming up, them continuing to gloss over Felicity, etc..

[Guest]

OK, I'm getting kind of ragey over the end of the last Olicity scene, and I'm hoping to get talked out of it.

 

I've managed to not let the BM secrets and lies ruin my appreciation for Olicity scenes, all the way up through even the last one, until Oliver's re-proposal. I remember how much we worried about the BM lie tainting the original proposal, and that mostly didn't come to pass because the lead up during the episode was so great and it happened kind of under extenuating circumstances. But tonight Oliver proposed while fully aware of the original lie, all the lies he's been telling when he's been visiting the kid, and the fact that the kid is not a secret anymore. But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

 

I appreciate what you're saying but I didn't read the scene that way. It didn't come across like Oliver wanting to lock her down before it all blows up, at least not to me.

 

Felicity had just once again told him how much she loved him and the way he immediately asked her to marry him felt like a 'God, I love this woman so much' kind of moment, IMO. Like just one sentence was all it took to wonder why they were waiting to get married. I honestly don't think he was even thinking of his dumb lie tbh. Oliver is the master of compartmentalizing. LOL.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[wonderwall]

OK, I'm getting kind of ragey over the end of the last Olicity scene, and I'm hoping to get talked out of it.

 

I've managed to not let the BM secrets and lies ruin my appreciation for Olicity scenes, all the way up through even the last one, until Oliver's re-proposal. I remember how much we worried about the BM lie tainting the original proposal, and that mostly didn't come to pass because the lead up during the episode was so great and it happened kind of under extenuating circumstances. But tonight Oliver proposed while fully aware of the original lie, all the lies he's been telling when he's been visiting the kid, and the fact that the kid is not a secret anymore. But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

 

The way I saw it was, Oliver was most likely thinking "gosh I almost lost Felicity and almost lost Thea - Life is so damn short why the hell aren't we getting married right away? Because I can't see why not because I actually love you that much" -- I don't think the lie ever really came across Oliver's mind when he said that because he literally almost just lost his sister, had to deal with the LoA nonsense, cut Malcolm's hand off, was worried about Felicity because her father came back into town, had to deal with making stupid decisions... In an episode where a lot happened (regardless of how stupid Oliver was), I think that, that decision was completely spur of the moment which is why he put so little thought into it.

[lion10]

I cheered when Oliver cut off Merlyn's hand.  He deserved it so much for all of Season 3.

[Artsda]

So Oliver knows that Malcolm knows and that Malcolm wants revenge yet Oliver STILL doesn't think he should tell Felicity the truth? 

[Chaser]

Oliver didn't even meet Noah. Felicity's father. The man who blackmailed Roy. Almost killed him and thousands of others.

 

Nope. 'Cause it had to be in an episode with Thea almost dying and Nyssa and Malcolm and LOA. 

 

Soooo bitter.

[Lady Calypso]

Oliver didn't even meet Noah. Felicity's father. The man who blackmailed Roy. Almost killed him and thousands of others.

 

Nope. 'Cause it had to be in an episode with Thea almost dying and Nyssa and Malcolm and LOA. 

 

Soooo bitter.

 

I mean...technically, he met him last episode.

 

But I get what you mean. 

[BkWurm1]

But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind.

 

I really didn't get that vibe from Oliver.  The show is sending that vibe because a lot of us see the clock counting down but I honestly felt Oliver was being straightforward in his reasons.  He loves Felicity.  He knows her and she knows him and they finally have a pause in all the awfulness and he wants to take advantage of that to  formalize something wonderful in his life. 

 

I don't think Oliver has yet thought of why not telling Felicity about William and asking her to marry him are contradictory behavior.  I really think he thinks they are separate issues and in moments when he just looks at her and feels all his love for her well up, I too have a hard time tying them together. 

 

I think he's honestly ignorant about how close his lie is to blowing up.  He is in a way locking Felicity down, but only because he wants to cement his love with her in the most public and official way, not IMO because it would keep her from leaving him if she found out about William.  I don't think that's crossed his mind. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by BkWurm1

[theacostov]

I really didn't like this episode for too many reasons to point them all out. So just going to focus on the things that infuriate me. 

 

Nyssa - She's been a complete badass since the moment she arrived at the airport in S2. This episode makes me so sad, because what the hell happened to that woman? I HATED how she got Oliver to fight her battles. Yes husband help me. It just felt super gross to me. And all that so she could disband the LOA. What the hell is the point? I would say I'm glad the LOA stuff is over but I'm not that optimistic they won't make a return. 

 

Felicity/Noah - What a freaking waste. Stupid episode to put it in and barely any time to really feel the emotions. 4 years we've been waiting for a Felicity arc and that wasn't it. Her conversations with her parents seemed like precursors to whatever her issues with Oliver are going to be. She couldn't even have her story with her parents just be about that. At least Felicity was allowed to be smart enough not to be blinded by, oh he's my father so that must automatically mean he should be spared. (I'm looking at you Oliver). On a related note Thea should never speak to Malcolm after he was willing to let her die so he could keep an ugly ring, I won't hold my breath. 

 

Oliver/Spawn - They have managed to make Oliver look even worse if that was even possible. The moment Malcolm found out was the moment you tell the whole team and you do something about keeping that kid safe. God how am I supposed to root for such stupidity? 

[thegirlsleuth]

I didn't love this episode, but am willing to grade up since they killed the League of Assassins storyline and salted the earth. I'd love a web series of the different league members going through job training. Nyssa could open up her own credit card call center, although I suppose that would defeat the purpose of giving up evil.

As always, anything having to do with Malcolm immediately involves stupid decision, which most of you have covered. I was annoyed that Oliver was going to keep Malcolm alive for Thea considering at one point, killing him is the only thing that would keep her alive. I also wished that they had Lance arrest him at the same time he arrested Felicity's father. I know no prison can hold Malcolm, but they should at least try.

I liked the Felicity father story and would have gladly given up one confusing LoA sword fight so that there was more room for that story to breath. I would have liked to see dad try to win her over more, and I would have loved a scene where he faced off against Donna, who was truly a force to be reckoned with. I hated that in the scene where she's telling the group that she saw her father turned into a Malcolm conversation within five sentences. And I know they've said they are going to bring him back but I hope they do because I really liked the fact that even after we knew he was a rat bastard, when Noah was pleading with Felicity it seemed warm and sincere and is a dynamic that was intriguing. Also, considering the man was more than happy to blackmail Roy, I couldn't believe that Felicity would think he would keep her secret once he was in custody. Wasn't she worried about him turning her or Oliver in?

That said, this episode gave me, for the first time, the tiniest bit of hope for the coming baby mama disaster. They made a big deal about how both Malcolm and Felicity's dad failed the baby steps trust tests. I think Felicity is going to give Oliver a baby step test and he is going to PASS. If it's paired with him learning once and for all to stop keeping secrets, all hope is not lost.

7. And now the flashbacks appear to be heading for something TRULY exciting: digging!

Oooh, the suspense.

Maybe you should consider trying to destroy the Chinese economy again, flashbacks. Just a thought.

Hahaha. No one will be allowed to fast forward during the exciting DIGGING scenes. They managed to make the destruction of the Chinese economy boring--and don't forget the genocide--so next week is going to be can't miss.

[themadman]

Damn it, Arrow writers, enough of the bloody flashbacks! This isn't Lost!

[lemotomato]

I'm still undecided on how to feel about that last scene, but I liked reading everyone's thoughts on it! Have some pretty gifs! (source)

 

[Chaser]

That might be one of my favorite kisses.

[Starfish35]

Yeahhhhhh that wasn't great. I'm starting to fall into the old familiar second-half-of-season depression. Hello my old friend. Although I suppose I have to apologize to the CW promo people - it turns out the Felicity's father storyline really was just a sidenote. Disappointing, after all the years of anticipation. :(

I mean, I'm glad people were actually talking about the bad things that Malcolm has done, but still. I hate that Nyssa couldn't beat him herself. And how the hell did Oliver beat him so very easily?

The problem is that the reason Nyssa didn't fight him is a BTS reason. Nyssa would have killed him and there really isn't a credible way to explain her not killing him. But the writers want to still keep Malcolm around for awhile. So Oliver had to be the one to fight him, and they can explain Oliver not killing him because of the stupid no-kill find-another-way thing. But he still beat him way too easily, and now because he is an idiot and didn't kill him, his son is going to be put in danger. :(

It also bugged me that Oliver called Robert a bad man. Do we really have evidence that he was all that bad? Yeah, he killed a man by accident and covered it up. Not a good thing to do. But when he found out what Merlyn was actually planning he tried to find a way to stop him, and that's why Malcolm had the yacht sabotaged. Am I not remembering this correctly? It seems like Oliver is trying to justify to himself his association with the man behind his father's death by saying that Robert wasn't a good man.

I don't know why I expect this show to make sense anymore. :(

ETA: oh and could Poppy have made a quicker turnaround in her feelings toward Oliver? I think I got whiplash there.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Starfish35

[thegirlsleuth]

Also, a positive: I am really liking how they have maintained Oliver and Felicity's physical intimacy since she's been in a wheelchair. Not just the kissing, but how they stay in each other's orbit, moving around each other in a way that never feels like they are stopping and having to think about how to interact. She goes to him, he goes to her, she reaches for him, he crouches in front of her--both of them staying in motion. It feels organic, to use Marc Gs favorite word. I think the reason that Amell and Rickards have always clicked is that they are both strong physical actors, and it has made the a pleasure to watch them together.

[La Dee Da]

I liked the episode but there are some parts of it I have to ignore in order to do so. The main one being that both Thea and Nyssa weren't participants in the events shaping their lives. They're strong characters that deserve to be more than plot points.

The lack of Byzantine twists in the LOA storyline made it an improvement over season 3. I thought that Oliver's solution was pretty crafty for the immediate situation and an effective starting point for the spiralling to come, re William and Malcolm's re-breaking bad. I have to admit that I thought Malcolm was in on it, given how lopsided the duel was ... Well, until the de-handification

We're on the clock with the wedding being set, I'm afraid (I thought proposal #2 was just impulse, given his googly heart eyes). The "found the best solution in a difficult situation" is clearly the counterpoint to the "people don't change" perspective when the big lie gets revealed - but I don't think Oliver really tried to find a different way back in the cross over, so good luck in advance with that, Mr. Queen.

For some reason, DD saying "we did a number on her" and how pleased he was with that made me laugh.

  

I find myself thinking "you scamp!" When DD is being nefarious but calling for Malcolm's head when he walks into the room.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know I shouldn't have, but I laughed every time Nyssa referred to Oliver as her husband. Like seriously, woman? You are going to uphold the marriage that your father forced both of you into? I was also laughing because Mr. EB and I got married several years ago but recently I found a folder with the signed paperwork. I scrutinized the signatures to see if it was just a photocopy for our records or the originals. For a brief moment, there was the distinct possibility that despite the actual ceremony, we weren't legally married because we had never submitted the paperwork. So I was totally cracking up imagining Nyssa's father dispatching one of his minions to turn in the marriage paperwork for Oliver and Nyssa.

 

So we're back to that thing where Nanda Parbat is just around the corner so Laurel can jet off to have a chat with Nyssa and then come back to Star City to update everyone on Nyssa agreeing to Oliver's suggestion and then Oliver and Laurel have time to fly back to Nanda Parbat to ask for a tiny sample of the lotus stuff and then fly back to Star City to see if it works on Thea and then Oliver, Laurel, Diggle, and Malcolm all fly back to Nanda Parbat so Malcolm can ambush Nysssa and then everyone flies back to Star City to fight some more. That means in the first half of this episode, there were three full round trips between Star City and Nanda Parbat. Remember back in the olden days when Oliver would come back from Nanda Parbat looking exhausted because it was a long ass plane ride and then a hike? Now it's like going around the corner to get a slurpee at 7/11.

 

How long before someone makes a Star Wars joke about Malcolm's hand on the show?

 

I mean, look, Oliver, I don't like Samantha much either, but are you really not going to let her know that Malcolm Merlyn is after her kid? That's worse than lying to Felicity about this.

Last night on izombie, the main character found out the guy she just started boning served time for a felony assault (which she learned by going into the police database). When she confronted him about it, he jokingly said that's usually something he doesn't bring up until the fifth date and I understood why he hadn't told her yet. They barely know each other and they slept together exactly once so I don't think you necessarily have to disclose all of your baggage at that point.

 

But Oliver is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He has known Felicity for years. He trusts her with his life. He lives with her. They are engaged. There is NO reason not to tell her about his kid. Sure, whatever, he promised Samantha he wouldn't tell anyone, but he doesn't have to run straight to Samantha and say, "Soooooo, remember how I said I wouldn't tell Felicity about William? I totally did. Like, just now."

 

More importantly, ITA that now that Oliver is aware that Malcolm knows about William, it is a DICK MOVE not to tell Samantha that she is in danger and needs to move. Yeah, she might get mad and tell Oliver he can't see William anymore, but isn't their safety more important than Oliver getting to visit?

 

I think that when Felicity does find out about William, she is going to see the parallel between William and herself, growing up without a father and wondering why he didn't love his kid enough to be around. Noah definitely seems shady, but I think he was at least partly sincere when he said that he didn't want Felicity to grow up on the run because of him. The difference is that Noah didn't have to put his family in danger. He could have turned himself in and then the police and the FBI wouldn't have been chasing down Felicity or Donna. William, on the other hand, will always be in danger as long as Malcolm is alive (which is why I wish Oliver had just killed him). Even if Malcolm doesn't personally go after William, just the fact that he knows about him endangers him. Oliver has a lot of enemies, not just Damian and Malcolm, so keeping William's identity a secret is important for his safety whereas Noah running off was about keeping himself out of prison, not protecting Felicity from assassins.

Edited February 11, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[wonderwall]

I know I shouldn't have, but I laughed every time Nyssa referred to Oliver as her husband. Like seriously, woman? You are going to uphold the marriage that your father forced both of you into? I was also laughing because Mr. EB and I got married several years ago but recently I found a folder with the signed paperwork. I scrutinized the signatures to see if it was just a photocopy for our records or the originals. For a brief moment, there was the distinct possibility that despite the actual ceremony, we weren't legally married because we had never submitted the paperwork. So I was totally cracking up imagining Nyssa's father dispatching one of his minions to turn in the marriage paperwork for Oliver and Nyssa.

 

So you're telling me you both have been living in SIN for the past several years?!? FOR SHAME ELECTRICBOOGALOO, FOR SHAME :p

 

Ps. I hope you rectified the problem and submitted those papers accordingly :p

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Hahaha, I know, right? We were totally cracking up at the idea that we finally got married and then weren't actually married this whole time. We eventually realized that what I found were just copies and we did submit our paperwork, which is not nearly as hilarious as accidentally not getting married. Plus if it turned out that we weren't really married, we were going to go around introducing each other as "my lovaaaaah" like the SNL skit:

 

But seriously, I was like Nyssa, are you guys REALLY married? That's like saying everyone who has a ceremony at Burning Man is really married!

Edited February 11, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Jediknight]

IIRC, FB!Oliver said that he's lost 4 people since Robert. So, that's Yao Fei, Shado, Sara, and Akio. I don't think he's counting Slade since Slade did try to kill him after he got Mirakuru-crazy.

Okie dokie, and I guess it makes sense that he'd kick off Slade.

[looptab]

Well, I finally have my answer on who's the worst Arrow writer (to me). Keto Shimizu, come forward, don't be shy!

Seriously, of all the back and forth of Oliver, Malcolm, Nyssa, Malcolm again, I didn't follow any of it. I'd watch a scene and wonder, how did they got there? I didn't care enough to follow, couldn't care enough to. 

One last thing. Why did Oliver not notice until the morning after Felicity and her dad had coffee that she was upset? They live together. She's dependent on him to make it upstairs to bed and, presumably, her closet. They couldn't have not seen each other when she got home from seeing her dad. I know the answer is so the reveal could be convenient to having everyone around, but bad writing like that just bugs me.

This bugged me as well. But I think the most glaring insult to the audience's intelligence must be, Kill Malcolm for me Oliver! - I don't let anyone fight my battles Oliver!....ok, then...

 

Sad to be proven right about Felicity being very marginal. And all the lampshading about her evil dad showing up at the same time  Thea was possibly dying, therefore being a much less important problem, just kept me wondering, okay, but why?? Why did it have to be like this?

Anyway her story was really good, if short. Hope to see more of her dad in the future.

 

Finally, this was a good episode for Laurel. And she didn't cross her arms! (I hope I am right this time, anyway she seems to be doing it a lot less, haha), but:

 

-What was the point of DD being weakened by Thea? This isn't really where I thought they were going with the bloodlust.

-Agree with the bad acting. I thought, too, that Oliver was playing a con on Nyssa with Malcolm.

-The scene where Oliver, Laurel, and Diggle prevented Malcolm to follow Nyssa had me giggling. Intimidating, you are not, lol.

- Oliver, I'd feel bad for you right now if you weren't a giant idiot. Your son is innocent, though.

 

About that scene on the roof you guys pointed out, of Oliver looking at Felcity befor chopping off the hand, I thought at that point everyone believed he was going to kill him? So I don't know if I feel like appreciating that bit, haha.

Edited February 11, 2016 by looptab

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The scene where Oliver, Laurel, and Diggle prevented Malcolm to follow Nyssa had me giggling. Intimidating, you are not, lol.

I was laughing too because Laurel was completely superfluous. Like Malcolm is afraid of her, ha!

[Password]

Whoever said 95% was a snooze and 5% was great I wholeheartedly agree.

To be more specific minute 30-40 was fantastic. I was hoping Malcolm would die but now I feel more assured it's him in the flashforward Felicity spoke about. I loved every time Nyssa referred to Oliver as her husband and Thea as her sister because I snorted. I really liked that Malcolm lost even this LITTLE even though again, KILL HIM OLIVER.

The last 2 minutes were business as usual because they annoyed me. Oliver proposing to Felicity again (after actually being REMINDED he has a son) whilst being beautiful was completely tragic. Maybe Oliver has compartmentalized so much he actually believes he only has a son when he's in CC. Felicity is going to be ridiculously hurt. People don't change actually.

Yay for Malcolm just being straight up evil. No more I love my daughter, you're like a son Oliver. Nope. He knows he's doing it to hurt Oliver and that's good. Now die Malcolm.

Everything else was an absolute SNOOZE. Bored to tears, not enough Felicity. Attention Arrow writers: Original Team Arrow does not include Laurel Lance. She doesn't go there.

[AudienceofOne]

I agree with all. But the thing that most struck me about this episode (apart from the godawful Laurel acting - even for her that was bad) was that this show can never decide how good a fighter somebody is. So now suddenly Oliver is the best fighter in the entire LoA? That means he's pretty well the best fighter in the world. Yet he gets taken out every second week by two-bit villains who've had some self-defense classes at the Y. And the fight between him and Malcolm lasted 10 seconds.

 

Meanwhile, Nyssa was a total badass but now she can't fight a couple of League goons without running away?

 

The running battle scenes between the League groups were really badly directed. This show used to have fight scenes as its strength but now they're often sub par.

[doesntworkonwood]

I realised this episode that Stephen Amell is not actually blonde. That was the most interesting part of the episode for me. And Tom Amandes's face. 

[bijoux]

Now that we've started amputating parts of Malcolm's anatomy, can his tongue be the next part to go so he can stop spewing crap? Or at least have others stop buying into it. I mean, I laughed my ass off at Laurel's, He'll do anything to save his daughter. Only to have Malcolm show up to be there when Thea croaks. Tears in my eyes. I've been cheering for the ring hand to be chopped off for a while, but I was hoping Nyssa would do it and thrwo the stump in his face. Considering Oliver had to scale an entire mountain to face the old Ra's, did she at least have to scale the building? Which was hilariously situated among a number of taller buildings which were lit up like Christmas trees. So I imagine people in there all gathering with pop corn and soda to watch the show.

 

I'm glad the damn league is dead, but is a bunch of assassins as free agents actually good news?

 

Oliver will be so screwed when Felicity finds out. She was stone cold with Noah. I mean, she called Donna's new squeeze to book him! And Donna was the fiercest she has ever been. That was a great instant switch from fun and games to stay away from the bastard.

 

I have some superficial notes. Why didn't Donna get her jeans hemmed? She looked like she had hooves. And The Lashes are completely out of control! They're practically covering BC's eyebrows at this point.

[EmilyBettFan]

Oliver, Felicity and Diggle were all great.

Quarks you can list the fact that Laurel hides behind a car for most of the fight and then comes out from behind a car to do her second hair flip. What a fail of a character.

[dtissagirl]

But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

 

I agree with the others who don't believe Oliver is being this manipulative. He really does want to be married to Felicity because he loves her that much.

 

But there's something else that I get from this hardcore compartmentalization that Oliver's been doing wrt the BMD. The writers are still avoiding writing this as an actual storyline. The secret is still being treated as a ticking bomb TO THE AUDIENCE, but not to Oliver.

 

I can truly believe that from the moment Oliver told Felicity nothing was wrong and it was over in 408, until now, he hasn't had a single thought about the fact that he's lying to Felicity. None at all. He told BM he would keep the kid a secret, and that's what he's doing, and he's not contemplating the ramifications of anything, because that's the mission -- keeping the secret. It's the ultimate compartmentalization.

 

It was even more glaring in this episode, because Malcolm's words to him were a ginormous threat, but Oliver's reaction was to 1. do nothing about it, because 2. must. keep. the. secret. a. secret.

 

[Even though it's not a secret anymore, since Barry knows and MALCOLM MERLYN KNOWS.]

 

Malcolm: Let me ask you something. If Damien Darhk came to you and told you to lay down your bow, let him finish his plan for Star City, would you do it? Even if it meant saving William's life? I know everything about you, Oliver. I am Ra's Al Ghul, but back to the matter at hand. You will never sacrifice your city to save your son, and believe me when I tell you that I am only making the same choice.

 

Oliver: No. I would look for another choice, and I wouldn't stop looking until there was a third option!

 

Which brings me back to Oliver and Felicity. I know there's very very little internal logic to Oliver keeping a secret. He's keeping a secret because at some point in the near future, the ticking bomb will explode in his face, and Felicity will break up with him. That's the whole point of it.

 

The side effect here is that I remember Felicity telling Oliver in the erased timeline that telling her wouldn't be a burden -- that it would be a relief. And it makes me sad that the pretzel-like non-writing is making me think Oliver is ignoring/forgetting/has unlearned a side of Felicity that WE KNOW he knows well. He knows she's the best problem-solver he knows. He knows that if he needs someone to bounce off ideas and come up with solutions to ANYTHING AT ALL, she's the best person for the job, and that also, for quite awhile now, she's been his go-to person when he needs to do just that.

 

But it seems like Oliver isn't even thinking about telling Felicity, because he's not at all trying to look for a solution to his ~dilemma. He's keeping the secret kid completely separated from Felicity, which is why he can ask her to marry him again, and truly mean it.

 

Which is super sad and disheartening, but not in the Oliver-is-a-manipulative-douche way. Just in a Oliver-needs-some-serious-therapy way, because this high level of compartmentalization is borderline creepy, and it's also making him overlook one of Felicity's greatest skills.

Edited February 11, 2016 by dtissagirl

[kes0704]

I thought this episode was okay and I really hate all things LOA related so that is glowing praise for me! I'm really disappointed that Felicity's story with her father was nothing but a minor blip in the episode. It's been four years in the making and it took next to no time to play out because we had to fit in numerous sword fights to replay part of S3.

The EPs had said previously that the story of Felicity's dad was pushed back because there wasn't time to "do it justice", but seriously they couldn't find the 15 minutes somewhere in a previous season to squeeze it in because that's all they really needed.

I also feel like I've missed something along the way because I have no idea what the evil schemes of the villains are in either the past or present timelines. The writers routinely burn through story (see exhibit A, the return of Felicity's father) but this part of the plot feels like it's stalled. Though to be fair, I may have fast forwarded or dozed off during the scenes where we were given this information.

So overall, not the best episode of the season, but by no means the worst.

[bijoux]

I'm really disappointed that Felicity's story with her father was nothing but a minor blip in the episode. It's been four years in the making and it took next to no time to play out because we had to fit in numerous sword fights to replay part of S3.

 

At least she played and active part in her story. On the other hand, there's Thea being the Sleeping Beauty (nice shooting schedule for Willa this episode) and Nyssa who kept asking Oliver to fight for her while calling him her husband. At least that tomfoolery has to be annulled now. So Nyssa can go for milkshakes and fries. Oh God, she'll get to eat carbs on the regular! Maybe she'll get super happy as a result.

 

Poppy is both stupid and horridly acted. I burst out laughing at least twice at her acting choices.