Disney Films

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

That would be wonderful, but unfortunately, villain apologia has been quite the thing for some time now, and doesn't appear to be going away any time soon. Backstories don't always make a character interesting. No, they don't. They really don't. Remember this great line from Scream?

Well, I don't really believe in motives... I mean did Norman Bates have a motive? Did we ever find out why Hannibal Lecter like to eat people? DON'T THINK SO! See, it's a lot more scarier when there's no motive.

I don't care about a villain's childhood, daddy issues, war trauma, what-the-hell-ever. Just give me a villain who has a plan, challenges the hero, cackles and gloats a bit, then gets defeated and there's much rejoicing (yay). Is that really asking so much?

I hate that trend but I don’t think it’s even possible with her unless it’s 100% prequel.  Even Once Upon A Time didn’t try to excuse away Cruella’s villainy. They attempted to redeem every other Disney villain including rapists and murderers but left her a sociopath. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Guest

[Mabinogia]

14 hours ago, Dani said:

Even Once Upon A Time didn’t try to excuse away Cruella’s villainy. They attempted to redeem every other Disney villain including rapists and murderers but left her a sociopath. 

Sometimes people are just...evil. 

I always loved Maleficent (until OuaT made her a unicorn loving wimp and the Jolie movies tried to make her some tragic heroine) because there was a reason for her actions (she was not invited to the Christening or whatever) but they weren't justified at all. She was just batshit crazy which is why she wasn't invited in the first place. That was a good balance, for me. It didn't need to be padded out with all that shit from the Jolie movie. 

And really, what is going to be Cruella's justification for murdering puppies to make clothes? Was she bit by a puppy as a child and this is her ultimate revenge against all puppykind? Was she denied a puppy as a child and so now she sees all puppies as taunting her for never having had one? Or, why don't we try something revolutionary and she's just an evil bitch! That can be a good life lesson for kids. Some people are just cruel for no reason and they don't just need a hug or someone to say they look pretty without the fur coat. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

48 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Sometimes people are just...evil. 

I always loved Maleficent (until OuaT made her a unicorn loving wimp and the Jolie movies tried to make her some tragic heroine) because there was a reason for her actions (she was not invited to the Christening or whatever) but they weren't justified at all. She was just batshit crazy which is why she wasn't invited in the first place. That was a good balance, for me. It didn't need to be padded out with all that shit from the Jolie movie. 

And really, what is going to be Cruella's justification for murdering puppies to make clothes? Was she bit by a puppy as a child and this is her ultimate revenge against all puppykind? Was she denied a puppy as a child and so now she sees all puppies as taunting her for never having had one? Or, why don't we try something revolutionary and she's just an evil bitch! That can be a good life lesson for kids. Some people are just cruel for no reason and they don't just need a hug or someone to say they look pretty without the fur coat. 

[Bill1978]

I think my big issue with this Cruella movie and if it does have redemptive arc is that it is purely made up by new people. If the author of the original novel wanted us to sympathise with Cruella, she would have mentioned it somewhere in her book. If the original author was happy to have Cruella be a villain just for the sake of being villainous to drive the plot than we all should be content with that view. 

As you can tell I'm not a fan of the recent trend of justifying villainy with a sob story.

[Dandesun]

There's that old adage of 'the villain is the hero of their own story' and, frankly, that's full on bullshit for Cruella. Her name is fucking Cruella DeVille. Even if she CHOSE that from Betty Niceascanbe then it was a deliberate choice. Her motivation is 'I want to wear Dalmatians and I'm going to collect a SHIT-TON of Dalmatian puppies so I have enough skin to make the wardrobe I want from them.'

That's it. I don't want anything more or deeper than that. Just like I never wanted any backstory for Maleficent other than 'Unseelie Fae' -- that was enough!

Ever since they decided to give Darth Vader a backstory of 'he's a cute kid and then he loved too much!' it's been increasingly more rare to get a good villain backstory.

Sometimes they're just assholes. I don't need to know why.

[Wynterwolf]

23 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Sometimes they're just assholes. I don't need to know why.

Right? Some people have just chosen to be selfish jerks. There will always be selfish jerks, I just want to see them stopped. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Right? Some people have just chosen to be selfish jerks. There will always be selfish jerks, I just want to see them stopped. 

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

There's that old adage of 'the villain is the hero of their own story' and, frankly, that's full on bullshit for Cruella. Her name is fucking Cruella DeVille. Even if she CHOSE that from Betty Niceascanbe then it was a deliberate choice. Her motivation is 'I want to wear Dalmatians and I'm going to collect a SHIT-TON of Dalmatian puppies so I have enough skin to make the wardrobe I want from them.'

That's it. I don't want anything more or deeper than that. Just like I never wanted any backstory for Maleficent other than 'Unseelie Fae' -- that was enough!

Ever since they decided to give Darth Vader a backstory of 'he's a cute kid and then he loved too much!' it's been increasingly more rare to get a good villain backstory.

Sometimes they're just assholes. I don't need to know why.

The irony is, trying to make a villain sympathetic not only makes them less interesting... but it makes them even less sympathetic (Jim Carrey's Grinch comes to mind).I am actively rooting for Cruella's failure at the box office. I don't care how petty that makes me. 

Jeez, I just hope Aunt Sarah or the rat in Lady and the Tramp don't get a friggin' backstory...

Edited August 26, 2019 by Wiendish Fitch

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

The irony is, trying to make a villain sympathetic not only makes them less interesting... but it makes them even less sympathetic (Jim Carrey's Grinch comes to mind)

The Grinch got his redemption story in the original story.  Cruella is just plain out and out the villain of her story and that is fine.

I remember in 5th grade we were watching some PBS show and all the villains in stories kept disappearing (the big bad wolf, the evil stepmothers, etc).  So, their stories became boring. It turned out that the one taking out all the bad guys was this girl in a story where all she is doing is picking out a dress and that's when we learned you need conflict for a story, so that means you have to have a villain.  Yeah, I know you can have some other conflict, but we were kids it wasn't supposed to be overly deep.

[Wiendish Fitch]

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The Grinch got his redemption story in the original story.  Cruella is just plain out and out the villain of her story and that is fine.

I remember in 5th grade we were watching some PBS show and all the villains in stories kept disappearing (the big bad wolf, the evil stepmothers, etc).  So, their stories became boring. It turned out that the one taking out all the bad guys was this girl in a story where all she is doing is picking out a dress and that's when we learned you need conflict for a story, so that means you have to have a villain.  Yeah, I know you can have some other conflict, but we were kids it wasn't supposed to be overly deep.

Hey, I'm all for villains! I just wish Disney would stop trying to make villains that give us the feels, that's not what they're there for!

[Dandesun]

Cruella's house in the country is called Hell Hall. She wants to skin puppies to wear. Sometimes, you don't need to dig deeper. This is the situation where you lean hard into what she is... which is fucking AWFUL.

When I first heard they were giving Maleficent a softer backstory than 'bad fairy' I was pissed because I knew that was going to result in King Stefan being made a bad guy and no thank you. He's also one of the few royals in Disney fairy tale movies that had a personality other than "MY SON MUST WED IMMEDIATELY"

The other thing Sleeping Beauty has going for it (it's a lot... it has so much going for it) is that is makes a really, horrible fairy tale far more palatable (the sheer amount of violation the princess is subjected as she sleeps in many version is fucking awful) and for all the people who like to talk to their daughters about 'it's not right for him to kiss her when she's asleep like that' -- okay, I get that but at the same time they never actually address the fact that Maleficent wanted her to flat out DIE and Merryweather needed to come up with something that would avoid that fate and give her an out on the fly.

At least they let Philip and Aurora actually know each other, fall in love immediately in the fairy tale way, and plan to run off together rather than... random prince shows up and makes out with local corpse/unconscious princess.

Frankly there are other stories I'd rather see fleshed out. How did King Stefan even get to be on such good terms with the three good fairies? And for all their playing at being benign and harmless they sure managed to conjure up as boss as fuck set of weaponry for Philip to use when shit was going down. What's THAT about?

[Mabinogia]

8 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Ever since they decided to give Darth Vader a backstory of 'he's a cute kid and then he loved too much!' it's been increasingly more rare to get a good villain backstory.

I like Darth Vader as he was and never saw the middle three movies so for me Darth's backstory is, he has a power hard-on end of story. Cruella's backstory is she liked to kill innocent animals and wear their skins end of story. 

It would be refreshing if they just went all in and made her an abomination, just absolutely horrible, Cruel and Evil like her name implies. Then, when the puppies triumph over her and get out with their lives and she is shipped off to prison where she belongs, everyone can hoot and holler that sometimes the bad guys do pay for their actions instead of getting a hug because they had a bad childhood. 

I think it would be cathartic to see a bad guy get their due rather than get forgiveness because of some past slight given how many of them are getting off scott free in the real world. (just realized I say scott free all the time and have no clue how it is spelled)

[Trini]

Off the top of my head, the only Disney villain I can see that might have an interesting backstory is Ursula, the Sea Witch. She used to be part of the Sea King's court, but craved greater power and position. Tried to take it by force but was overruled and banished. But still preys on vulnerable merfolk who need/want her sorcery skills.

[Spartan Girl]

19 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Hey, I'm all for villains! I just wish Disney would stop trying to make villains that give us the feels, that's not what they're there for!

Ms. Mojo posted a video about the top 10 Disney Villains that they felt were "right all along."  Not going to post the video, but the ones they picked were horseshit.  So what if little Simba was a petulant entitled spoiled child?  Scar was TEN TIMES WORSE when he stole the throne by killing his own brother.  Maleficent didn't get invited to Aurora's birth celebration, so it's okay for her to be petty and curse Aurora?  And Syndrome/Buddy from The Incredibles?!  Are you fucking kidding me?!  It's okay for him to destroy superhero just because his idol was mean to him?!  That's toxic fanboy crap, and you know it.

The only one that was maybe okay to be on the list was Callahan from Big Hero 6, and only because he lost his mind out of grief for his daughter.  And even then it's still wrong.  He did wind up getting his daughter back, but Tadashi was still dead because of him. 

I did like how, in the Big Hero 6 animated series, when Hiro visits him in jail and a finally remorseful Callahan apologize for what he did, it still doesn't cut it.  Hiro's reply is : "Tadashi would've wanted me to forgive you.  Someday I hope I can."

That's how it's fucking done.

[Wiendish Fitch]

38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ms. Mojo posted a video about the top 10 Disney Villains that they felt were "right all along."  Not going to post the video, but the ones they picked were horseshit.  So what if little Simba was a petulant entitled spoiled child?  Scar was TEN TIMES WORSE when he stole the throne by killing his own brother. 

Agree 100% (I hate to think of those who don't).

39 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

  Maleficent didn't get invited to Aurora's birth celebration, so it's okay for her to be petty and curse Aurora? 

The bitch was brilliant enough to conjure up a death curse... but didn't have the good sense to have competent henchmen. My gal Ursula, she knew who to have on her payroll!

40 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And Syndrome/Buddy from The Incredibles?!  Are you fucking kidding me?!  It's okay for him to destroy superhero just because his idol was mean to him?!  That's toxic fanboy crap, and you know it.

I know I do! Seriously, Syndrome defenders, Mr. Incredible wasn't "being mean", he was justifiably pissed off because Buddy was being an annoying tagalong and a serious liability! I was rooting for Mr. Incredible to punch that nasty kid right into the sun (in retrospect, he should have).

42 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The only one that was maybe okay to be on the list was Callahan from Big Hero 6, and only because he lost his mind out of grief for his daughter.  And even then it's still wrong.  He did wind up getting his daughter back, but Tadashi was still dead because of him. 

I did like how, in the Big Hero 6 animated series, when Hiro visits him in jail and a finally remorseful Callahan apologize for what he did, it still doesn't cut it.  Hiro's reply is : "Tadashi would've wanted me to forgive you.  Someday I hope I can."

That's how it's fucking done.

It's still wrong, indeed. Jenny from Oliver and Company knew what she was talking about.

Good on the writers of the Big Hero 6 series. Apologies are great, I'm all for 'em, but they don't always cut it, especially when it involves someone's fucking life. 

Sigh, what I wouldn't give for a gleefully evil, uncomplicated villain like Hades or Ratigan nowadays.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

what if little Simba was a petulant entitled spoiled child?  Scar was TEN TIMES WORSE when he stole the throne by killing his own brother. 

Not to mention the fact that Simba was a child/cub. There's no reason to think he wouldn't grow out of the brattiness.  Especially with Mufasa's guidance (assuming he didn't kill him or run him off, because, well, lions).

[Matt K]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Hero 6 animated series, when Hiro visits him in jail and a finally remorseful Callahan apologize for what he did, it still doesn't cut it.  Hiro's reply is : "Tadashi would've wanted me to forgive you.  Someday I hope I can."

That's how it's fucking done.

Just replying because I really loved that scene, it was so well done. 

[Silver Raven]

I was looking at the something like 150 films listed as being in production, pre-production, or possible production from Disney: https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?companies=co0044374&sort=release_date,desc

I noticed that one of them is a live action Hunchback of Notre Dame.  Please, please, please, be a filming of the musical.  THAT is a beautiful, wonderful production.

[Spartan Girl]

22 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Good on the writers of the Big Hero 6 series. Apologies are great, I'm all for 'em, but they don't always cut it, especially when it involves someone's fucking life. 

When I saw that scene, part of me thought that of course Callahan could afford to be remorseful: he got his daughter back.  Except now she found out all the terrible thing he had done.  It's one thing to go supervillain to avenge dead family, kind of another when they're alive and now you have to explain your actions to them.  I'm guessing that didn't go too well for Callahan.  

22 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Seriously, Syndrome defenders, Mr. Incredible wasn't "being mean", he was justifiably pissed off because Buddy was being an annoying tagalong and a serious liability! I was rooting for Mr. Incredible to punch that nasty kid right into the sun (in retrospect, he should have).

Amen to that.  On that note, I also hated the villain in Incredibles 2 and I also wish Helen/ElastiGirl hadn't saved her life because she wasn't the least bit grateful or remorseful for her actions, she was just all, "I'm still right."  Newsflash, bitch: you brainwashing superheroes to killing/destroying doesn't prove your "superhero villains make us weak" point, since you're the one pulling the puppet strings.  Try focusing your rage on the people that actually killed your parents instead of the heroes that couldn't get to them on time.

Other than her and Syndrome, I kind of feel that the villains in The Incredibles franchise were the ungrateful lawsuit happy whiners that sued all the superheroes for petty reasons.  That suicidal guy Bob saved sure got over his issues quick he could get money out of his rescuer.  *eyeroll*

Edited August 28, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Ailianna]

On 8/26/2019 at 1:17 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Right? Some people have just chosen to be selfish jerks. There will always be selfish jerks, I just want to see them stopped. 

There's a great Law & Order episode where the guy who eventually turns out to be the murderer (or at least, hired the murderer), tells the detectives, "Yes.  I am a son of a bitch.  I've been one all my life.  The hours are good and there's no heavy lifting." 

Some people just are bad, and don't care what they do as long as they win and I think kids should know that just because they can't make friends or be liked by someone, doesn't make it the kid's fault.  You can't be friends with everyone--and probably you shouldn't be.

[Spartan Girl]

On 8/26/2019 at 3:36 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Jeez, I just hope Aunt Sarah or the rat in Lady and the Tramp don't get a friggin' backstory...

I hear ya, but the funny thing is, after rewatching parts of the original cartoon, I don't consider Aunt Sarah a villain, at least not at the Cruella level.  True, she's a bitch and prejudiced against Lady from the start, but to be fair, it was her stupid cats that set Lady up by pretending she'd attacked them and trashed the house.  And then later, when she caught Tramp in the baby's room, she did honestly think that he was trying to attack the baby.  I don't know if anyone else would have reacted different finding a stray dog in the baby's room the crib knocked over.

Speaking of Lady and the Tramp, I gotta hand it to Tramp for being one of the most underrated Disney dogs.  It's not every guy who would come running back to the rescue after Lady ripped him a new one because she thought he ditched her and got pissy about all his past relationships.  Yeah, there were a lot, but he's a friggin dog for goodness sake. 

Points also to Jock and Trusty for running to his rescue when the truth about the rat comes out and they realized they misjudged them.  I love dogs.

[Captain Carrot]

Lindsey Ellis has a new video essay regarding post regarding Disney remakes, how they're 'fixing' problems that most people don't care about that much, and how they're ignoring more serious issues with the originals.

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, Captain Carrot said:

Lindsey Ellis has a new video essay regarding post regarding Disney remakes, how they're 'fixing' problems that most people don't care about that much, and how they're ignoring more serious issues with the originals.

Lindsay is awesome, as always.

Here's the thing: no story is perfect. Don't argue with me, the perfect story does not exist. There will always be plot holes, plot contrivances, problematic elements, and the like. It's fine to take issue with any story, but remaking even the worst movie ever won't "fix" it. And my favorite movies of all time will always have flaws... and that's fine, because my loved ones have flaws, too. I don't want to remake, fix, or perfect my loved ones. Their flaws are part of what they are.

Dumbo has racist elements, which sucks... but there it is. It was released in 1941, what does one expect? The remake looks horrible because it misses the point of the original.

Spoiler

Also, why is it a happy ending that Dumbo and his mom are released back in the wild? They're fucking circus animals! They don't know how to survive in the wild! They'll be dead in half an hour!!

Also, poor Nico Parker is part of the trend of "Dull Surprise" child actors who mindlessly recite their lines in a robotic monotone.

[Spartan Girl]

On 9/30/2019 at 7:54 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Dumbo has racist elements, which sucks... but there it is. It was released in 1941, what does one expect? The remake looks horrible because it misses the point of the original.

  Hide contents

Also, why is it a happy ending that Dumbo and his mom are released back in the wild? They're fucking circus animals! They don't know how to survive in the wild! They'll be dead in half an hour!!

Yeah, and if you follow that logic, The Fox and the Hound has a similar issue with the widow releasing Todd into the wild. Yes, she did it to save him from the neighbor shooting him, but he's a TAME fox by then, how did she think he'd survive on his own after being raised by her for most of his life?!

Good points from Lindsay, but I didn't mind Jasmine having more political ambitions in the new Aladdin. In my defense, I was (and still fucking am) feeling raw from what they did to Dany on Game of Thrones so kind of needed the catharsis.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[AimingforYoko]

What, you thought all Disney had was comic-books and live-action remakes of beloved animation classics to make money off of? To that, Disney says, "HA! We also have theme park attractions."

[Bill1978]

Jungle Cruise looks like it could be a fun ride in the cinema. Even if it appears to have just transplanted the characters from The Mummy and given them new names and actors. I'm a fan of movies who lovingly have one foot in the 'we know this is all a bt silly but lets have fun with it' box. Although I confess I was sold from the moment Emily Blunt opened her voice and that English accent poured out of her mouth.

[starri]

I think I'm most amused by the fact that that cap is WAAAAAAY to small for the Rock's head.  Which is totally charming and doubtlessly intentional.

I can't believe they lifted the "back side of water!" joke from the actual ride.  I mean, I can believe it, but I can't imagine the vast majority of the potential audience will get why it's funny.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I can't believe they lifted the "back side of water!" joke from the actual ride.  I mean, I can believe it, but I can't imagine the vast majority of the potential audience will get why it's funny.

That line was the moment when I went from having no desire to see this to really wanting to see what other jokes they incorporate. Apparently Disneyland nostalgia is a more powerful motivator for me than I realized. 

[Dandesun]

On 10/11/2019 at 8:21 PM, starri said:

I think I'm most amused by the fact that that cap is WAAAAAAY to small for the Rock's head.  Which is totally charming and doubtlessly intentional.

I can't believe they lifted the "back side of water!" joke from the actual ride.  I mean, I can believe it, but I can't imagine the vast majority of the potential audience will get why it's funny.

They had to. They HAD to. There were a ton of scenes in 'Pirates of the Caribbean' that were lifted right out of the ride so they have to do the same with Jungle Cruise.

And the backside of water is THE joke. Most of the others shift and change and alter but the backside of water is always there. (My personal favorite is 'Uh oh. A crashed plane... you know what that means: Hippos.')

I love Emily Blunt. I love the Rock. And this looks fun as hell. I'm in.

[Chyromaniac]

As someone who loves the Jungle Cruise ride, I really don’t know what to think of this film.  Mostly it comes down to casting - I can’t shake the feeling that I would rather have had Emily as the Skipper, and The Rock just not in the picture.

[bmoore4026]

OK, here are my thoughts a fat gay man who has loved Disney for much of his life.  First up:

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs - Empathy is not weakness.  I don't understand why being a caring individual is considered weak, especially with women who are supposed to be "strong, independent warrior goddesses".  Snow White takes it upon herself to become the "mother" to what she assumes are seven orphaned children.  Snow White is just 14 and takes it upon herself to raise kids out in the middle of nowhere.  This is a young lady who was told that her stepmother wants her dead that very morning.  She let her emotions get away with her once but when she sees that the "scary things" following her were just gentle woodland creatures, she tells them (and herself) that she's not going to let her fear get the best of her again.  That's strength.

And the prince didn't show up to save her.  He showed up to say good-bye.  Also, he didn't "make out" with a corpse - Snow White wasn't dead in the first place but was expected to be buried alive by The Evil Queen.  And The Dwarfs were not going to show The Evil Queen mercy for what she did (look at how the scene where The Evil Queen is running away mirrors Snow White's run into the forest).  They knew Snow White for only a day and considered her a part of their "family" and were willing to kill a freaking monarch for her.

I just don't know why "empathy", especially empathy in women, is considered a weakness now.  You can be a woman and have your characters be kind and good, movie people.  There's a difference between strong women and "strong" women. 

Next time (if this gets any likes), I'll share my thoughts on Cinderella.

Edited October 23, 2019 by bmoore4026

[bmoore4026]

Well, my post on Snow White seemed to do well, so here's my view on Cinderella:

Can we knock it off with the victim blaming?  The Take goes into more detail about this than I can and it touches on many points I agree with.  Again, like Snow White, Cinderella's strength is her empathy.  She treats with kindness creatures any other person would with disgust and have killed.  She even adopts them as her friends (not pets), makes little clothes for them, and has the mutant ability to communicate with animals.

There are somethings people are missing - Lady Tremaine's motivation.  Cinderella's father more than likely had no other siblings, especially male ones, so there's a good chance that he would have left the estate and family fortune to Cinderella when she came of age.  That would have left the stepmother and her two daughters, Drizella and Anastasia, beholden to Cinderella for financial support.  As Cinderella was prettier and more talented than Drizella and Anastasia, Lady Tremaine would do everything in hero power to undermine her until she turned 18, including making her into a domestic.  And let's all agree that Lady Tremaine is in the top three of Disney villains.  What makes her so remarkable is that she has no magic powers.  All she has is her wits and she knows how to use those wits.  "Of course.  I said 'if'."  If that isn't one of the best villain lines in movie history, I don't know what is.  

Lady Tremaine only cares about three things:

1) Herself

2) Her social and financial setting

and

3) Her daughters except Cinderella

(And could we give it up for Eleanor Audley and the voice actresses for the stepsisters for bringing their A game?)

Cinderella could have given into bitterness but she doesn't.  She could run away but where to?  That chateau is her home and by all rights belongs to her.  She might not have a dime to her name thanks to her stepmother, but that estate is her father's estate.  She's not taking care of it because her stepfamily orders her to.  To me, she's taking care of what she can in memory of her father and birth mother. 

Her birth mother.  If the chateau represents the father, then the dress represents Cinderella's deceased mother.  (Which reminds me, can we knock it off with the asinine "why are there so many dead mothers in Disney films?"  Internet!?  These films are based on time periods with high mortality rates in childbirth.  You know the answer, smarty pants Cracked and Youtubers, so don't ask it.  It's insulting to all the women who died giving birth.  And the destruction of the dress is one of the most messed up scenes in movie history.  Had the stepmother not stopped Drizella and Anastasia when she did, they would have started in on Cinderella's skin.  Cinderella's reaction, just standing there in her slip with shreds of the mother's dress still on her, reminds me of someone who just suffered sexual assault.

Then there's the subject of the prince.  There was an episode of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt where she goes on a tirade against Disney films and fairy tales in general.  She says of Cinderella about the prince "kicking in doors and forcing women to try on a shoe".  First of all, Tina Fey, the prince didn't kick down a door.  The prince wasn't there at all.  It was the Grand Duke, that poor man who was forced at sword point to go out in the middle of the night and try on the glass slipper on what had to have been hundreds of young women who would be falling over each other for a chance to be the prince's bride and the next queen.

And I feel horrible for the prince.  He's not a character, he's a human object.  He has no personality.  He only has three or four lines, one of which is "Wait!  Please wait!"  He's literally painted into the background at end, reclining in the carriage while Cinderella waves to the crowd.

Now, let's move on to the king.  He's basically the mirror image of The Stepmother.  He's forcing two people (The Grand Duke and the prince) to do things they don't want, the former of which under penalty of death.  He's doing all this because he wants grandchildren before he dies.  So, what's he going to do when Cinderella and the prince get married at the end afterwards?  Sit in the bedroom and watch?  He might mellow out at the end, but we do see that he has a hair trigger temper. 

And let's get one thing straight - Cinderella didn't get rescued by a man.  She used her Scarlet Witch powers to alter reality and will a godmother with magical powers into existence for a brief time.  A woman saved Cinderella.  And the rats saved Cinderella by getting that key.  And Cinderella saved herself (and The Grand Duke's life) by coming down stairs with the other glass slipper. 

This was Walt Disney's favorite film.  And it's one of mine.  I know what it's like to be a victim of abuse.  Still am actually and I'm almost 40.  But there's a line in Cinderella that resonates with me and I'm sure a lot of people who have had to put up with bullying and verbal and emotional abuse - "They can't order me to stop dreaming".  Cinderella isn't a victim.  She's a survivor.

Also, the "Stroke of Midnight" scene is amazing.  Those guards riding black horses with red eyes and wielding swords and Cinderella and the coach suddenly developing Flash powers and The Grand Duke freaking out.  It's stunning.

And while I liked the remake, the one thing I didn't like was how they treated The Grand Duke.  Not only was he crapped on in this film, he got turned into a bad guy in the remake.  Maybe this is a reference to Ever After with the duke being a bad guy?

Also, the sequels never happened.  They are uncanon.

If I still get more likes, I'll got into The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad for Halloween.

Edited October 29, 2019 by bmoore4026

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, my post on Snow White seemed to do well, so here's my view on Cinderella:

Can we knock it off with the victim blaming?  The Take goes into more detail about this than I can and it touches on many points I agree with.  Again, like Snow White, Cinderella's strength is her empathy.  She treats creatures any other person would disgust and have killed with kindness.  She even adopts them as her friends (not pets), makes little clothes for them, and has the mutant ability to communicate with animals.

There are somethings people are missing - Lady Tremaine's motivation.  Cinderella's father more than likely had no other siblings, especially male ones, so there's a good chance that he would have left the estate and family fortune to Cinderella when she came of age.  That would have left the stepmother and her two daughters, Drizella and Anastasia, beholden to Cinderella for financial support.  As Cinderella was prettier and more talented than Drizella and Anastasia, Lady Tremaine would do everything in hero power to undermine her until she turned 18, including making her into a domestic.  And let's all agree that Lady Tremaine is in the top three of Disney villains.  What makes her so remarkable is that she has no magic powers.  All she has is her wits and she knows how to use those wits.  "Of course.  I said 'if'."  If that isn't one of the best villain lines in movie history, I don't know what is.  

Lady Tremaine only cares about three things:

1) Herself

2) Her social and financial setting

and

3) Her daughters except Cinderella

(And could we give it up for Eleanor Audley and the voice actresses for the stepsisters for bringing their A game?)

Cinderella could have given into bitterness but she doesn't.  She could run away but where to?  That chateau is her some and by all rights belongs to her.  She might not have a dime to her name thanks to her stepmother, but that estate is her father's estate.  She's not taking care of it because her stepfamily orders her to.  To me, she's taking care of what she can in memory of her father and birth mother. 

Her birth mother.  If the chateau represents the father, than the dress represents Cinderella's deceased mother.  (Which reminds me, can we knock it off with the asinine "why are there so many dead mothers in Disney films?"  Internet!?  These films are based on time periods with high mortality rates in childbirth.  You know the answer, smarty pants Cracked and Youtubers, so don't ask it.  It's insulting to all the women who died giving birth.  And the destruction of the dress is one of the most messed up scenes in movie history.  Had the stepmother not stopped Drizella and Anastasia when she did, they would have started in on Cinderella's skin.  Cinderella's reaction, just standing there in her slip with shreds of the mother's dress still on her, reminds me of someone who just suffered sexual assault.

Then there's the subject of the prince.  There was an episode of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt where she goes on a tirade against Disney films and fairy tales in general.  She says of Cinderella about the prince "kicking in doors and forcing women to try on a shoe".  First of all, Tina Fey, the prince didn't kick down a door.  The prince wasn't there at all.  It was the Grand Duke, that poor man who was forced at sword point to go out in the middle of the night and try on the glass slipper on what had to have been hundreds of young women who would be falling over each other for a chance to be the prince's bride and the next queen.

And I feel horrible for the prince.  He's not a character, he's a human object.  He has no personality.  He only has three or four lines, one of which is "Wait!  Please wait!"  He's literally painted into the background at end, reclining in the carriage while Cinderella waves to the crowd.

Now, let's move on to the king.  He's basically the mirror image of The Stepmother.  He's forcing two people (The Grand Duke and the prince) to do things they don't want, the former of which under penalty of death.  He's doing all this because he wants grandchildren before he dies.  So, what's he going to do when Cinderella and the prince get married at the end afterwards?  Sit in the bedroom and watch?  He might mellow out at the end, but we do see that he has a hair trigger temper. 

And let's get one thing straight - Cinderella didn't get rescued by a man.  She used her Scarlet Witch powers to alter reality and will a godmother with magical powers into existence for a brief time.  A woman saved Cinderella.  And the rats saved Cinderella by getting that key.  And Cinderella saved herself (and The Grand Duke's life) by coming down stairs with the other glass slipper. 

This was Walt Disney's favorite film.  And it's one of mine.  I know what it's like to be a victim of abuse.  Still am actually and I'm almost 40.  But there's a line in Cinderella that resonates with me and I'm sure a lot of people who have had to put up with bullying and verbal and emotional abuse - "They can't order me to stop dreaming".  Cinderella isn't a victim.  She's a survivor.

Also, the "Stroke of Midnight" scene is amazing.  Those guards riding black horses with red eyes and wielding swords and Cinderella and the coach suddenly developing Flash powers and The Grand Duke freaking out.  It's stunning.

And while I liked the remake, the one thing I didn't like was how they treated The Grand Duke.  Not only was he crapped on in this film, he got turned into a bad guy in the remake.  Maybe this is a reference to Ever After with the duke being a bad guy?

Also, the sequels never happened.  They are uncanon.

If I still get more likes, I'll got into The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad for Halloween.

Thank you! Cinderella is my favorite move for all those reasons. I'm mentioned in Eeeevil thread that Lady Tremaine is one of the scariest evils for me because she's so real. Abusive stepmothers and stepfathers are everywhere and always have been. Cinderella's life was so much like so many real life kids throughout history. She was forced into being a maid. Its mention in the beginning that her new stepfamily took to abusing her. Despite all of that she is a cheerful person or tries to be. The why didn't she just leave. Where would she go? She had no where to go. She had no friends except mice. And most likely no money. There weren't really that many options for her. Except for the ball she spends all of her time at home cleaning and everything else. She doesn't want to go to the ball to snag a prince. She just wants to go to the ball. That's it. She's the only one there who isn't trying to snag the prince which is what draws his interest and Cinderella doesn't even realize she's danced with the prince. When its midnight and she turns back into the maid. She's happy she had a nice night. But again doesn't expect anything else. She's happy to have a souvenir from the night and goes back home.  

I love what you said about the King. Yeah, he's insane and every bit as a bad as the Stepmother. The poor Grand Duke. Plus he makes it clear he doesn't care who his son marries he just wants some grandchildren. At least Cinderella gets away from her stepmother, what about the King?  

[WendyCR72]

Disney's sale of Fox leads to trouble with theaters as Disney puts Fox movies in the vault.

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Disney's sale of Fox leads to trouble with theaters as Disney puts Fox movies in the vault.

Who decides what goes in the vault, and what criteria do they use?

[Wiendish Fitch]

12 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Her birth mother.  If the chateau represents the father, than the dress represents Cinderella's deceased mother.  (Which reminds me, can we knock it off with the asinine "why are there so many dead mothers in Disney films?"  Internet!?  These films are based on time periods with high mortality rates in childbirth.  You know the answer, smarty pants Cracked and Youtubers, so don't ask it.  It's insulting to all the women who died giving birth.

Preach. That's why I hated the whole "Belle's dead mom" subplot (one of too many) in the 2017 live-action Beauty and the Beast. It went nowhere, it contributed nothing, and I hope live-action Belle caught the Plague and died from kissing that trinket that looked like something you purchase at Claire's.

Where are all the Disney moms? Simple: they're dead. Maternal death, up until about a century or two ago, was alarmingly common, to the point where I'm amazed the human race even survived. The O.G. Belle's mom? Died in childbirth. Same with Cinderella. And Pocahontas. Ariel... okay, who the hell knows, and who the hell cares? I sure don't, because I'm not a ghoul.

If you read the original fairy tales on which these movies are based, most of the parents are widowed, because they were written during a particularly crappy time in history where people were dying left and right before the age of 40. Yeah, it was not a fun time to be alive. 

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Anduin said:

Who decides what goes in the vault, and what criteria do they use?

Disney refused to comment and when asked before, it said a bunch of different answers to a bunch of different people per the article, so your guess is as good as mine.

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

If you read the original fairy tales on which these movies are based, most of the parents are widowed, because they were written during a particularly crappy time in history where people were dying left and right before the age of 40. Yeah, it was not a fun time to be alive. 

This. Plus, given the stories were intended to be dark in general, in order to teach kids lessons and warn them of the dangers of the world and all that, having parents die kinda came with the territory as a result. 

[bmoore4026]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Disney's sale of Fox leads to trouble with theaters as Disney puts Fox movies in the vault.

Well, The Rocky Horror Picture Show isn't going in the vault.  So let's all imagine Mickey and Friends singing The Time Warp, Goofy singing Sweet Transvestite, Hans singing Hot Patootie, and Ariel singing Touch-a Touch-a Touch Me.  There.  Childhood ruined.

Seriously though, the fact that they're putting so many fabulous movies away is infuriating.  All About Eve, Grapes of Wrath, The Ox-Bow Incident are all some of the greatest movies of all time.  One of my favorite films from Fox is The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie.  Hell, they're not even releasing the X-Men movies or Avatar.  They own the rights to both now and they've all but ruined their nature park with that Avatar attraction and now they're not even going to show it!?  I love ya, Disney, but sometime you make me furious.  You make me feel like Gollum.  "I loves the Disney.  No!  I hates the Disney."

If Disney insists, I'm will to pay a dollar or two more just to see the classic Fox films, but they shouldn't jut be shunted away to be forgotten.

[Spartan Girl]

On October 26, 2019 at 9:02 PM, bmoore4026 said:

Cinderella could have given into bitterness but she doesn't.  She could run away but where to?  That chateau is her some and by all rights belongs to her.  She might not have a dime to her name thanks to her stepmother, but that estate is her father's estate.  She's not taking care of it because her stepfamily orders her to.  To me, she's taking care of what she can in memory of her father and birth mother. 

Her birth mother.  If the chateau represents the father, than the dress represents Cinderella's deceased mother.  (Which reminds me, can we knock it off with the asinine "why are there so many dead mothers in Disney films?"  Internet!?  These films are based on time periods with high mortality rates in childbirth.  You know the answer, smarty pants Cracked and Youtubers, so don't ask it.  It's insulting to all the women who died giving birth.  And the destruction of the dress is one of the most messed up scenes in movie history.  Had the stepmother not stopped Drizella and Anastasia when she did, they would have started in on Cinderella's skin.  Cinderella's reaction, just standing there in her slip with shreds of the mother's dress still on her, reminds me of someone who just suffered sexual assault.

Great post. And I agree with what you said about the chateau representing her father. The live action one kind of touched on this theme to explain why she stayed: not only because she had nowhere else to go, but also because it was her family home and she couldn't bring herself to just abandon it to the Tremaines. And kindness and love does not make you weak. Rewatching the cartoon as an adult really gave me a new perspective on Cinderella. I misjudged you, girl. And I'm sorry.

Yeah, the King and Prince were way better characters in the live action one than in the cartoon, but making the Grand Duke evil was pointless.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The Prince in Disney's animated version of Cinderella was virtually, no practically, a non-entity. We, or I should say, I, since I don't want to speak for anyone else, never got a sense of who he was, or what he wanted. We saw him at the ball, bored to death. Until he sees Cinderella and falls in love.

Even Prince Charming had a line or two, and we saw him grieving, when he thought Snow White was dead.

The only prince who was fleshed out--and had a personality, was Prince Phillip in Sleeping Beauty. It's one of the reasons it's my favorite of the three.

And I don't care, but I loved the king in Cinderella. I don't have a problem watching these movies or any period pieces, really, in the period they were set. So my inner feminist doesn't get outraged.

[Katy M]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 9:49 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Ariel... okay, who the hell knows,

Her mom was eaten by a shark.  Or she ran off with a sailor. Or, better yet, she had an affair with a sailor and Ariel was the result and that's why she so longed for land.  And, then, of course, she died during childbirth.

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Great post. And I agree with what you said about the chateau representing her father. The live action one kind of touched on this theme to explain why she stayed: not only because she had nowhere else to go, but also because it was her family home and she couldn't bring herself to just abandon it to the Tremaines. And kindness and love does not make you weak. Rewatching the cartoon as an adult really gave me a new perspective on Cinderella. I misjudged you, girl. And I'm sorry.

Yeah, the King and Prince were way better characters in the live action one than in the cartoon, but making the Grand Duke evil was pointless.

I'm not sure the live auction really explained that part or that Ella had no where else to go. We see her able to spend time walking the market with her friends, time meeting the prince and for wanting to stay because it was her father's home. She has no problem leaving it at the end. I really wish they had looked to Ever After as much as the Cinderella animation. It shows so much better that Danielle had no where to go. Her only friends are servants and her friend August who has his own master. Danielle still believes to a point that her stepmother cares about her. Rodmilla gives Danielle just enough pet the dog moments her and treats her own daughter Jacqueline like crap for her to think that. She's at first all for Marguerite ending up with prince because she thinks it means they'll leave and she'll get to stay in the manor. She's strong in many ways but still stuck in a crappy situation. She spends time with Henry she doesn't like him at first and quick to point out he didn't even bother to look at the other prisoners. Henry has faults which he over comes. Rodmilla is scary enough making her chose between her mother's shoes and her father's book. Then holding her while the book burns and still whipping her afterwards. Selling her to Danielle's creepy stalker who we learn Rodmilla had been secretly selling things to and blaming her servants for stealing them and taking money out of their pay for it. 

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The Prince in Disney's animated version of Cinderella was virtually, no practically, a non-entity. We, or I should say, I, since I don't want to speak for anyone else, never got a sense of who he was, or what he wanted. We saw him at the ball, bored to death. Until he sees Cinderella and falls in love.

Even Prince Charming had a line or two, and we saw him grieving, when he thought Snow White was dead.

The only prince who was fleshed out--and had a personality, was Prince Phillip in Sleeping Beauty. It's one of the reasons it's my favorite of the three.

And I don't care, but I loved the king in Cinderella. I don't have a problem watching these movies or any period pieces, really, in the period they were set. So my inner feminist doesn't get outraged.

I do love Sleeping Beauty because we get to see Aurora and Philip meet, spend time together and fall in love before they know who each other is. The others don't really get that. Cinderella and her Prince met at the ball and its love and Prince Charming meets Snow White while she's under asleep curse. She wakes and goes off with him. Love at first sight and love at first wake. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Prince Charming meets Snow White while she's under asleep curse. She wakes and goes off with him. Love at first sight and love at first wake. 

Not quite. Prince Charming and Snow White met in the beginning of the movie--he heard her singing "Some day My Prince will come" and then joined her in the song. Before she ran away and hid behind the door. She did think about him and did fall in love with him at first sight. In the original drawings, narrated by Walt Disney (in the bluray), they were to have had more scenes after that song, but it was scrapped. I guess it was too light hearted for the dark story. Or something.

[Trini]

I think Prince Eric (Little Mermaid) has personality. Or are we just talking about pre-Renassaince princes?

[Dandesun]

I mean, if you're going to go down the list:

Prince Florian (Snow White): Rides his horse, hears singing, climbs a wall to join in.  Sings 'One Song' to her. They trade kisses via bird. 

Prince Charming (Cinderella): Bored as fuck at the ball. Not impressed with the step-sisters. Sees Cindy and yeets himself out of the ball as fast as he can.

Prince Philip (Sleeping Beauty): Another one who rides horses and hears singing and goes off to join in. Props to his horse, Samson, who also has a personality. Not remotely interested in some princess he hasn't seen since he was six or whatever. Argues with his father about it being the 13th century and love comes before breeding. (Man, the Hapsburgs needed a few Philips.) Can actually fight and does more than once. Kills a mother fucking dragon. Full on bad ass.

Prince Eric (The Little Mermaid): Loves dogs and sailing. Pulls his own weight. Not crazy about the statue but not interested in hurting the feelings of Grimsby for gifting it to him. Goes back to a burning ship to save his dog. Another one who loves the ladies who can sing. Seems to take the wedding where his enscorcelled bride explodes out of her wedding dress into a ginormo purple octopus lady in stride then pulls himself onto a wrecked ship in the midst of a whirlpool and slams it the fuck into the now super ginormo purple octopus lady. Also a full on bad ass.

Prince Adam (Beauty and the Beast): Spoiled kid who might have been done the dirty by a wandering sorceress/fae and basically hates everything and is miserable. Pretty tough in his beast form what with the fighting off a pack of wolves and able to take on Gaston but who is to say it carries over into his human form. A giant asshole at first but when given the chance and reminded that he's got to do this on his own and, by the way, everyone in his castle is kind of counting on him because they got cursed too, really steps up and learns how to express decency and generosity (remember how excited he was to give Belle the library?) Chooses to be the bigger man in his confrontation with Gaston and not drop him off the castle roof. That's progress.

Prince Naveen (Princess and the Frog): Spoiled rotten and complete wastrel who cares for nothing but the riches he's taken for granted, partying all the time, playing his ukelele and jazz. In serious need of humility and gets it in a big way. Decides he will do whatever it takes to help Tiana achieve her dreams even if it means not being with her. (Lucky Charlotte was such a good person herself.) Married Tiana as a frog because, at that point, they could be together and he loved her... and then they both got changed back due to a technicality (but I still kind of love it.) Dug in and still worked his butt off to help Tiana build her restaurant.

Those are the characters that are Official Princes. You can make arguments for others marrying into the role like Aladdin or Flynn/Eugene. Also, you can probably make some arguments for Bambi (the young Prince of the Forest) or Simba (prince of the Pridelands) but I went with the human princes even if a couple of them got changed to something else.

Basically, once Philip came along the princes started getting some actual personality other than Handsome Love Interest with One Song.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Prince Philip (Sleeping Beauty): Another one who rides horses and hears singing and goes off to join in. Props to his horse, Samson, who also has a personality. Not remotely interested in some princess he hasn't seen since he was six or whatever. Argues with his father about it being the 13th century and love comes before breeding. (Man, the Hapsburgs needed a few Philips.) Can actually fight and does more than once. Kills a mother fucking dragon. Full on bad ass.

I LOVE the scene of toddler Prince Phillip when Aurora was born and they were...betrothed, I think?😅 And the amusement in his voice when he tells his father the king, how the 13th Century (I could have sworn it was 14th, but, semantics!) was so much moooore advanced.🤣

I fucking LOVE Prince Phillip.

[andromeda331]

15 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I LOVE the scene of toddler Prince Phillip when Aurora was born and they were...betrothed, I think?😅 And the amusement in his voice when he tells his father the king, how the 13th Century (I could have sworn it was 14th, but, semantics!) was so much moooore advanced.🤣

I fucking LOVE Prince Phillip.

I love that scene with toddler Prince Phillip meeting baby Aurora. Its so how I've seen so many toddlers react when they see a baby.

For me Phillip and Eric are tied as the best. He went back to save his dog and joined in the fight at the end.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Not quite. Prince Charming and Snow White met in the beginning of the movie--he heard her singing "Some day My Prince will come" and then joined her in the song. Before she ran away and hid behind the door. She did think about him and did fall in love with him at first sight. In the original drawings, narrated by Walt Disney (in the bluray), they were to have had more scenes after that song, but it was scrapped. I guess it was too light hearted for the dark story. Or something.

Oh, your right. I do wish they kept in a few more scenes after that. Even just one or two. So its a little less weird that Snow White goes off with him at the end. 

31 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I mean, if you're going to go down the list:

Prince Florian (Snow White): Rides his horse, hears singing, climbs a wall to join in.  Sings 'One Song' to her. They trade kisses via bird. 

Prince Charming (Cinderella): Bored as fuck at the ball. Not impressed with the step-sisters. Sees Cindy and yeets himself out of the ball as fast as he can.

Prince Philip (Sleeping Beauty): Another one who rides horses and hears singing and goes off to join in. Props to his horse, Samson, who also has a personality. Not remotely interested in some princess he hasn't seen since he was six or whatever. Argues with his father about it being the 13th century and love comes before breeding. (Man, the Hapsburgs needed a few Philips.) Can actually fight and does more than once. Kills a mother fucking dragon. Full on bad ass.

Prince Eric (The Little Mermaid): Loves dogs and sailing. Pulls his own weight. Not crazy about the statue but not interested in hurting the feelings of Grimsby for gifting it to him. Goes back to a burning ship to save his dog. Another one who loves the ladies who can sing. Seems to take the wedding where his enscorcelled bride explodes out of her wedding dress into a ginormo purple octopus lady in stride then pulls himself onto a wrecked ship in the midst of a whirlpool and slams it the fuck into the now super ginormo purple octopus lady. Also a full on bad ass.

Prince Adam (Beauty and the Beast): Spoiled kid who might have been done the dirty by a wandering sorceress/fae and basically hates everything and is miserable. Pretty tough in his beast form what with the fighting off a pack of wolves and able to take on Gaston but who is to say it carries over into his human form. A giant asshole at first but when given the chance and reminded that he's got to do this on his own and, by the way, everyone in his castle is kind of counting on him because they got cursed too, really steps up and learns how to express decency and generosity (remember how excited he was to give Belle the library?) Chooses to be the bigger man in his confrontation with Gaston and not drop him off the castle roof. That's progress.

Prince Naveen (Princess and the Frog): Spoiled rotten and complete wastrel who cares for nothing but the riches he's taken for granted, partying all the time, playing his ukelele and jazz. In serious need of humility and gets it in a big way. Decides he will do whatever it takes to help Tiana achieve her dreams even if it means not being with her. (Lucky Charlotte was such a good person herself.) Married Tiana as a frog because, at that point, they could be together and he loved her... and then they both got changed back due to a technicality (but I still kind of love it.) Dug in and still worked his butt off to help Tiana build her restaurant.

Those are the characters that are Official Princes. You can make arguments for others marrying into the role like Aladdin or Flynn/Eugene. Also, you can probably make some arguments for Bambi (the young Prince of the Forest) or Simba (prince of the Pridelands) but I went with the human princes even if a couple of them got changed to something else.

Basically, once Philip came along the princes started getting some actual personality other than Handsome Love Interest with One Song.

Excellent summary on the Princes. 

[Trini]

Even if they aren't royalty, yes, I think we could include the love interests of the other princesses too. I'd even include John Smith (Pocahontas).

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

Those are the characters that are Official Princes. You can make arguments for others marrying into the role like Aladdin or Flynn/Eugene. Also, you can probably make some arguments for Bambi (the young Prince of the Forest) or Simba (prince of the Pridelands) but I went with the human princes even if a couple of them got changed to something else.

And FYI, the Tangled TV series has made Eugene legit royalty!

----

But speaking of princes, there hasn't really too many Disney films with male royalty as the lead? Off the top of my head: Emporer's New Groove, Sword in the Stone, and ... I thought I had a third one. The rest have been secondary leads (Beauty and the Beast, Princess and the Frog).

[bmoore4026]

Well, I was going to talk about to The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad and, by God, though I don't really feeling like due to family reasons, I'm going to do it.

I honestly don't remember much from the Wind in the Willows segment except for this song.  I sure as hell remember The Legend of Sleepy Hollow segment.  And did I mention I was gay?  Because here's what I remember most - I thought Brom Bones was hot and Ichabod was cute.  My mother doesn't want me talking about my gayness to total stranger, but I couldn't care less.  This is the Internet and this particular site isn't Reddit or 4 Chan, so it feels like a safe place.  I won't to too deeply into my feelings though.

The Legend of Sleepy Hollow cartoon is actually a good companion piece to Beauty and the Beast as I see several parallels between the characters:

Brom Bones and Gaston.  Brom is a jock like Gaston, but more of a gentle jock and not an outright bully.  He isn't malicious in how he treats the others in town, except Ichabod.

Ichabod and Lumiere.  They're both womanizers though Lumiere is mostly a flirt while Ichabod usually has an ulterior motive in his wooing, especially in regards to Katrina.  He care more about her father's estate than her.

Katrina Van Tassle as both Belle and The Prince.  She's the most beautiful girl in town and spoiled as hell.  She has every man in Sleepy Hollow wrapped around her little finger.  She's also smart enough to see through Ichabod and know what he's up to.  It's mentioned in passing just before the Headless Horseman sequence that Katrina rejected him.  Even humiliated him, if I remember correctly.

And can we all agree the Headless Horseman sequence is one of the most underrated sequences ever in a Disney animated film?

Anyway, time to get going.  Next I think I'll tackle Alice In Wonderland (and also touch on Tim Burton's version and why I will never forgive him for what he did to Alice and what he almost did to Superman.)

[Annber03]

Oh, god, it's been so long since I saw "Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad". I remember having a crush on Ichabod as a kid, too :D.

24 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

And can we all agree the Headless Horseman sequence is one of the most underrated sequences ever in a Disney animated film?

Yes!