S06.E03: Season 6, Episode 3

[tenativelyyours]

I think Robert or Carson said as much when they were talking about the situation. They'd prefer for Thomas to just leave of his own accord then have to go through the nasty business of firing him. I can understand their worries. It is Thomas, after all. Who knows what kind of last-minute revenge he'd pull on his way out the door if he was fired with nothing to fall back on?

 

 

Martha and Harold aren't Jewish, though, only Cora's father was and Martha never converted. I don't think she travels in "Jewish" circles.

 

It would have been an interesting development if Martha had reached out to Tom. I can't remember any specific interactions they had (if they had any at all), but I feel like I remember her being somewhat fond of him. At the very least I don't think she hated that Sybil ran off with the Irish chauffeur. And whatever her feelings about Tom, I think she'd at least try to help out Sybbie, who is her great-granddaughter.

 

I'm pretty sure this was actually in part based on history. I read To Marry an English Lord and there was one family that had a non-practicing Jewish father and that was what put them on a ship across the Atlantic as the chances for entry to Mrs Astor's Four Hundred at the time was slim. While Europe and even Britain were much more lenient despite plenty of prejudice.  But I also think it is a little bit of a shout out to  Almina nee "Wombell" (aka de Rothschild) Countess of Carnarvon. 

[Roseanna]

Where I disagree is the idea that Mary can't stand Edith being "successful" and "confident". What Mary saw was Edith whining, complaining, unsure of herself, etc. and she commented. Her observations didn't sound like a woman who was resenting her sister's so-called happiness. I thought she sounded closer to bored than spitetful.

 

But at this scene Edith was not whining or complaining, on the contrary she clearly felt happy and confident with her success. And Mary didn't make make a comment although Robert urged her to praise Edith as he did and mere politeness would have demanded it, but she made a face, not simply out of boreness but in order to put down Edith's happiness although she didn't succeed it. 

 

Whining isn't a pleasant trait (although Edith in fact makes it much less than is claimed and in S5 she had a valid cause to mourn). But whining, like nagging, is born of frustration when original means have failed, without seeing that they are wrong strategies. 

 

On the other hand, meanness and cruelty are moral defects. And that's where Mary differs from Violet. The Dowager could even grudgingly admit that Isobel had innate goodness after she said that she had no right to feel bad seeing Mary laugh the first time after Mathew's death. 

[Andorra]

I think both sister don't like it when the other is the centre of attention. We hear unfriendly, eyerolling remarks from both of them every time the other does something. Edith snarks about Mary's men, about her job as estate manager, about her being sad that Tom is going to leave. Mary snarks about Michael Gregson and about Edith and the newspaper.

 

For some reason viewers only seem to hear one side though. Which is depending on which character they like or dislike. 

[ShadowFacts]

I think both sister don't like it when the other is the centre of attention. We hear unfriendly, eyerolling remarks from both of them every time the other does something. Edith snarks about Mary's men, about her job as estate manager, about her being sad that Tom is going to leave. Mary snarks about Michael Gregson and about Edith and the newspaper.

 

For some reason viewers only seem to hear one side though. Which is depending on which character they like or dislike. 

 

It's plain to see that both are guilty of unbecoming behavior.  One or the other of them comes off worse in particular episodes.  At their ages, their patterns aren't likely to change.  Which of the two is more tolerable probably depends on so many factors for individual viewers.  I'm sick of both of their toddler-like jealousies.  I'm past hoping they're going to grow up at this point.

[kassa]

Sometimes you just plain don't like somebody.  For cause or no cause.  If no cause, over the years you find cause, even if it's just that they chew too loud or their shoes are ugly.

 

I think we forget how isolated these girls have been, and how completely, utterly stuck with each other they were.  They didn't go away to school -- they had a governess.  There may have been some leeway in socializing with children on the estate when they were really, really small, but that was likely limited to village events.  There was no television.  There was no radio.  They didn't see their parents for more than an hour or so a day until they were old enough to eat a boring 7 course dinner with them in formal dress each night. Maybe by the time they were teenagers they might go off individually for a stay at the homes of other fancy friends of their parents with kids their age, but for the most part, they literally were their entire peer group.

 

They both doted on Sybil, and she carried the burden of making each other's company tolerable.  But pick your least compatible roommate ever and picture their being your only equal (since you've been carefully taught that the other 100 people you see in the course of your daily life are NOT).

[Roseanna]

I think both sister don't like it when the other is the centre of attention. We hear unfriendly, eyerolling remarks from both of them every time the other does something. Edith snarks about Mary's men, about her job as estate manager, about her being sad that Tom is going to leave. Mary snarks about Michael Gregson and about Edith and the newspaper.

 

For some reason viewers only seem to hear one side though. Which is depending on which character they like or dislike. 

 

It's not that. There is an essential difference sniping in (relative) little things and when the other is in mourning (even if she is mourning "only" a friend). Only Mary has done that.

 

When George was born, Mary said that she wanted to be only Matthew's Mary but not Edith's or anybody else Mary. Now Matthew's Mary is no more, softness he found inside her is gone. That doesn't mean that she has no more positive sides: there are still Anna's Mary, Carson's Mary and Tom's Mary. But her negative qualities have become stronger. A mature person accepts her both sides but Mary refuses them and projects them on Edith.       

[lucindabelle]

It did matter for she understood that it was a waste to give money to someone (Robert) who had just showed himself to be a fool in business (and who would have done it again, if Matthew didn't prevent him). And Mary was shown to be not at all practical but self-centered, greedy and shallow.  

 

absolutely true but again she also made it plain she didnt have access to funds to save downton anyway, it wouldnt have mattered.

I'm pretty sure this was actually in part based on history. I read To Marry an English Lord and there was one family that had a non-practicing Jewish father and that was what put them on a ship across the Atlantic as the chances for entry to Mrs Astor's Four Hundred at the time was slim. While Europe and even Britain were much more lenient despite plenty of prejudice.  But I also think it is a little bit of a shout out to  Almina nee "Wombell" (aka de Rothschild) Countess of Carnarvon. 

yes this, the way that coras heritage was never even hinted at earlier s a little retcon like the tolerant attitude to thomas' homosexuality. (apologies for lower case, ive hurt my right hand). but the second "upstairs, downstairs" was far worse, having a vulgar jewish hollywood director to dinner party! just woldnt have happened.

[Andorra]

It's not that. There is an essential difference sniping in (relative) little things and when the other is in mourning (even if she is mourning "only" a friend). Only Mary has done that.

 

And only Edith has really tried to ruin her sister, by writing that letter to the Turkish ambassy. That certainly was a bigger thing than getting a new haircut while the sister mourned what Mary supposed was a friend.

 

 

 But her negative qualities have become stronger. A mature person accepts her both sides but Mary refuses them and projects them on Edith.

 

 

I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree. I don't see where Mary's negative qualities have become stronger. I also don't see that she refuses to see them. IMO Mary has always been very realistic about herself and not at all refused to see her bad sides. She  just can't help herself when it comes to Edith. For me this always was one of her disarming qualities. She doesn't have such a high opinion of herself and would like to be a nicer person. I have never seen Edith show regret about something she did. She's whining about the consequences, but it never is her fault. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Mary can see her bad side when it comes to other people, but where it concerns Edith she is oblivious and believes there is nothing wrong with her behavior even if everyone else in the family does. Besides, even if it were true that Mary is self-aware of her faults, which is worse? Someone who knows their faults but still makes no attempts to be a better person or someone who is simply unaware of their faults?

Edited January 22, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Roseanna]

She doesn't have such a high opinion of herself and would like to be a nicer person.

 

Well, outwardly Mary has the highest opinion of herself or herself: because of her birth, beauty and marriage she is entitled to all privileges. It's likely she doesn't fully believe in that outer image as she had a misfortune to be born a girl. Unfortunately she had always listened more Carson's snobbish flattery and not her mother's more sensible and equal values.

 

What she has never tried is to be nice ​or please but those few she like. She doesn't care of other people's opinions (which isn't necessarily a bad quality in itself) but she doesn't try to rise above her negative feelings, either, not seeing that giving them full rein she hurts herself also.  

[helenamonster]

I would assume that Martha would have been cheering Sybil on ... just to spite her stuck-up aristocratic daughter ... laughing, not in mean way.  I'm just suggesting that if Boston was not comfortable or promising, it wasn't Tom's only choice, his cousins were not his only family in America and the Levinsons had plenty of money and connections to be "helpful" 

 

I don't think Martha has or had any desire to spite Cora. After all, it was her idea to ship her off to England and get a titled husband in the first place (fearing that because Cora's father was Jewish and their money was new that she wouldn't have much success in the states). At the time that Cora married Robert, the aristocratic system was still very much in full swing. It was until after the war that things really started to change, and Martha was able to accept that the world was moving forward and didn't want to be left behind. So I don't think she resents Cora's status, since she encouraged it, but resents that the system her daughter is a part of is dragging its feet when it comes to adapting, and I don't think she blames Cora for that.

 

I'm pretty sure this was actually in part based on history. I read To Marry an English Lord and there was one family that had a non-practicing Jewish father and that was what put them on a ship across the Atlantic as the chances for entry to Mrs Astor's Four Hundred at the time was slim. While Europe and even Britain were much more lenient despite plenty of prejudice.  But I also think it is a little bit of a shout out to  Almina nee "Wombell" (aka de Rothschild) Countess of Carnarvon. 

 

Oh it is based on history. I was just responding to a poster that was talking about how Irish immigrants and Jews didn't get along at the time, and how that might prevent Tom from reaching out to Martha, or prevent Martha from wanting to help Tom. Because Martha isn't Jewish, it wouldn't be a factor that would prevent them from getting together.

[PRgal]

I think Martha's Jewish - Cora brought up her religion at least once during Season 5 if I recall correctly.  As for the girls not having gone away to school.  Any chance of them having attended a finishing school?

[Llywela]

I think Martha's Jewish - Cora brought up her religion at least once during Season 5 if I recall correctly.  As for the girls not having gone away to school.  Any chance of them having attended a finishing school?

No, we were explicitly told back in season one that none of the three ever attended a school of any kind. They were taught by governesses.

[Artymouse]

No, we were explicitly told back in season one that none of the three ever attended a school of any kind. They were taught by governesses.

 

Which led to that great exchange where Edith says something about girls going to school in America, to which Violet retorts, "Yes, but in America they live in wigwams." And Cora says, "And when they come out of them, they go to school."

[sark1624]

Martha had a lot of money (enough for expensive clothes, house in the best site of NY, travel, etc), the problem is that Violet and Mary wanted another fortune, even if she hadnt enough money to save Downton his other son is more richer; she said that he is rich like Crassus and he enjoyed throwing his money ons yachts (bigger and faster yachts) if i remember well Violet, and Mary show a little jelaousy when she told that (like: what a waste, he can give that money to us!).

 

But even if Martha didnt have any money, she can easily persuade his son to give to the crawleys another little fortune to start again, but she noticed that they werent doing the necesarilly changes in their lives, she even told that to Robert that maybe is the end of those big houses and her way life and she adviced to him that he must change. Even after when Matthew inherited Swire money Robert inmediatily agreed with Carson to hire another footman and a assistan cook and Matthew made a little critic to that.

 

Is only in this season (the 6) that Robert finally understood when he saw the auction of his neighbour.

[shipperx]

Martha had money. She lives in Newport, home is jaw droppingly huge mansions. It was just that she's a widow and it was tied into her son's inheritance. Cora got her dowry. Everything else would go to the son after the widow died.

[whatsatool]

My favorite part of the episode was Thomas' interview with the old gentleman. Every once in a while this show rises above the soap opera material and this was one of those moments.

Yes and the cakes at the wedding! Edited January 23, 2016 by whatsatool

[Milburn Stone]

Same with architecture. You don't get thanks, time off, or overtime for working late, even until the wee hours. You do it. That is all. It's a deadline and you do whatever it takes. Nights, weekends, etc. That's just some industries' cultures.

 

Advertising's another one.

[PRgal]

Advertising's another one.

 

And IT.  That's why Google has just about anything and everything. 

[Milburn Stone]

These characters keep repeating the same tropes over and over again. In this one, Edith says something like, "I've got to have a purpose in life, and I think I may have found it." As if that need for purpose were a new revelation for her. Ten years ago, she said the same thing, when soldiers coming back from the front needed nursing. And she was a damned good nurse. But I guess she forgot, because it's like she just discovered that people need purpose.

[statsgirl]

Would Edith have been allowed to continue nursing?  Was it an acceptable profession for the aristocracy?

 

I remember reading about Charles Howard, 20th Earl of Suffolk when Ronald Pickup played him in the miniseries The Dragon's Opponent and one of the articles commented that if it had not been for the War (WWII) he would have had a quiet life as a research scientist. It was the shake-up that the war created that enabled him to do the extraordinary things that he did.

And only Edith has really tried to ruin her sister, by writing that letter to the Turkish ambassy. That certainly was a bigger thing than getting a new haircut while the sister mourned what Mary supposed was a friend.

It's true, she did write the letter. But that was six years earlier when she was still a teenager.  Mary is still constantly chipping away at her, and a woman in pushing thirty should be aware of when her sister is mourning a dear friend rather than always putting Edith's relationships down ("Gregson's apartment").

[TheGreenKnight]

And, really, the haircut incident isn't the first time Mary mocked Edith in mourning for the death of a man she had romantic feelings towards. She does the same in the very first episode of the series, when Edith is crying over the former heir who died. Someone Mary was intending to marry, but whose death wasn't as important as her wardrobe. It just shows that Mary is a static character.

[Llywela]

These characters keep repeating the same tropes over and over again. In this one, Edith says something like, "I've got to have a purpose in life, and I think I may have found it." As if that need for purpose were a new revelation for her. Ten years ago, she said the same thing, when soldiers coming back from the front needed nursing. And she was a damned good nurse. But I guess she forgot, because it's like she just discovered that people need purpose.

 

Would Edith have been allowed to continue nursing?  Was it an acceptable profession for the aristocracy?

Edith was never a nurse. Sybil was a nurse - she went away and did the training and wore the uniform, worked under Dr Clarkson's direction. What Edith did was more like a volunteer ward visitor. She hung around plumping pillows, fetching and carrying, and writing letters for the soldiers. She was a great comfort to them and worked hard, it was good for both them and for her, but what she did wasn't real nursing any more than Mary tending Matthew after his injury was nursing. Edith never showed any interest in becoming an actual nurse, like Sybil.

[sark1624]

Edith was never a nurse. Sybil was a nurse - she went away and did the training and wore the uniform, worked under Dr Clarkson's direction. What Edith did was more like a volunteer ward visitor. She hung around plumping pillows, fetching and carrying, and writing letters for the soldiers. She was a great comfort to them and worked hard, it was good for both them and for her, but what she did wasn't real nursing any more than Mary tending Matthew after his injury was nursing. Edith never showed any interest in becoming an actual nurse, like Sybil.

 

She wasnt not a nurse but she did a great job there, So why the wounded soldiers insisted and told to the general that the Edith´s work should be recognized? The main thing about her work in the house was not medical, she didnt present herself as a nurse, she said that she was in charge of non medical issues, and that soldiers were grateful of that, because in the end she emphatized with them, especially with the officer who lost his hand and couldnt write letters to his mother, she offered to write the letter together with him to inform his mother about his wound, she also knew all the officers there, and she informed to Isobel that some of them show a  tough side but in the interior were kind people. And the officers there asked to the general that her efforts should be accounted, to the surprise of Cora and Isobel.

Edited January 23, 2016 by sark1624

[Llywela]

She wasnt not a nurse but she did a great job there, So why the wounded soldiers insisted and told to the general that the Edith´s work should be recognized? The main thing about her work in the house was not medical, she didnt present herself as a nurse, she said that she was in charge of non medical issues, and that soldiers were grateful of that, because in the end she emphatized with them, especially with the officer who lost his hand and couldnt write letters to his mother, she offered to write the letter together with him to inform his mother about his wound, she also knew all the officers there, and she informed to Isobel that some of them show a  tough side but in the interior were kind people. And the officers there asked to the general that her efforts should be accounted, to the surprise of Cora and Isobel.

Yes, I'm aware of what she did. But people were talking about her as an actual nurse and asking if she couldn't have continued nursing after the war, so my point stands. She did a lot of good work as a volunteer in the hospital, but she wasn't a nurse and showed zero interest in becoming one. In order to work as a nurse after the war, which was suggested, she would first have had to go away and train, like Sybil did, something she never chose to do.

 

Edit: to answer the question above, no, nursing wouldn't have been an acceptable profession for the gentry - I don't think there was an acceptable profession for aristocratic women, who were supposed to be wives and mothers and nothing more than that. There was more leeway for women in all walks of life during the war (see Edith's tractor driving), but even then Sybil's decision to train as a nurse came as a shock, because she was a lady and ladies didn't do that kind of thing. Sybil's determination to continue her nursing after the war, after her marriage, set her apart from most women of her class.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Llywela

[Roseanna]

These characters keep repeating the same tropes over and over again. In this one, Edith says something like, "I've got to have a purpose in life, and I think I may have found it." As if that need for purpose were a new revelation for her. Ten years ago, she said the same thing, when soldiers coming back from the front needed nursing. And she was a damned good nurse. But I guess she forgot, because it's like she just discovered that people need purpose.

 

As above is told, Edith wasn't a nurse.

 

As we met Edith, she expected and hoped for a conventional life of woman of her class: to marry, have children and live just like her mother. She seems to have been able to fall in love with any eligible man. Having lost  Strallan she found a purpose during WW1 by helping convalescent soldiers with problems that weren't medical but simply human. After the war she tried to go backwards and do the conventional thing by marrying Strallan. After that failed, she found a purpose by becoming a columnist. And just in the moment when she didn't search for love, she found it. Now, having lost her great love and deciding to take care of their daughter and having inherited his magazine and flat, she has the first time in the situation where she has options to choose.

 

Most of us would probably give her advice: leave Downton as you prosper in London.

 

But also irl, people can experience many times when they ponder what they really want in life. Not seldom those decisions one had made in twenties, are changed later.  

[Roseanna]

And, really, the haircut incident isn't the first time Mary mocked Edith in mourning for the death of a man she had romantic feelings towards. She does the same in the very first episode of the series, when Edith is crying over the former heir who died. Someone Mary was intending to marry, but whose death wasn't as important as her wardrobe. It just shows that Mary is a static character.

 

Of course everyone had a basic character but that doesn't exclude change. In fact, Mary changed in S1 and S2 as well reflected her life. After the Pamuk affair she said to Matthew how the women of her class lived in the hallway before their marriage. And with Lavinia she behaved unselfishly. In all, she was interesting because she had real matters to decide on where the stakes were high (considering the time).

​However, the scene where Mary gets annoyed by Edith's crying over Patrick is really revealing, for the reason why it really annoys her is probably that she knows that she should feel sorrow - if not because of fiance as she didn't love him, but because her cousin who died too young. In short, she knows that she has a cold heart but that she can confess that only in her bedroom. Outside, she scolds Edith who behaves like a normal human being.

 

If one interprets most kindly Mary's behavior during the hair cutting episode, it may be that she couldn't stand Edith's sorrow because it reminded her of her own sorrow over Matthew that she had tried to put away by starting to date too soon with other men. Now this strategy had failed as she had realized that she couldn't marry Gillingham. For all power she had in Downton, life seemed a desert to her. So, instead of realizing that she hadn't dealt with her own sorrow yet, she decided to get merry, have haircut in order to keep the man she didn't want in thrall - until Edith by openly mourning "spoiled everything", not to speak of that her sister couldn't possibly have as tragic a fate as Mary.     

Edited January 23, 2016 by Roseanna

[Andorra]

What I see is, that people have extremely double standards when it comes to Mary and Edith. We only see  Mary be unkind to one single person (Edith) which makes her a monster and we see Edith be heartless and unfeeling to many people (Carson, the Swiss family, farmer Drake's wife, Mrs Drewe and Mrs Gregson) and she is a Saint. All bad things about Edith get excuses. No thing Mary does gets ever excused nor is anything Mary does ever good enough, because it is of course "just for the few she loves" or even better "only for people lower than she is".

 

But I quit this discussion. It is beating a dead horse and doesn't belong in this episode thread anyway. May the Edith lovers be happy with their adoration of Saint Edith. I can't stand her. 

[Avaleigh]

Would Edith have been allowed to continue nursing?  Was it an acceptable profession for the aristocracy?

 

I remember reading about Charles Howard, 20th Earl of Suffolk when Ronald Pickup played him in the miniseries The Dragon's Opponent and one of the articles commented that if it had not been for the War (WWII) he would have had a quiet life as a research scientist. It was the shake-up that the war created that enabled him to do the extraordinary things that he did.

It's true, she did write the letter. But that was six years earlier when she was still a teenager.  Mary is still constantly chipping away at her, and a woman in pushing thirty should be aware of when her sister is mourning a dear friend rather than always putting Edith's relationships down ("Gregson's apartment").

Like others, I remember her being praised by the general but I don't recall scenes of her nursing men. I remember her writing letters for people and running to the village to get various items for the officers.

 

I don't understand why there's this repeated claim that Edith was a teenager when she wrote the Pamuk letter. Edith was 21 or 22 when she wrote the letter--of age and definitely old enough to know better. Edith chips away at Mary when she can. Edith snarks in front of the family that Mary is the only one who isn't moving on with her life but this isn't seen as chipping away at Mary for whatever reason. Edith slyly tries to expose Mary for sex week. The list goes on.

 

I think the sisters should both start treating each other better. 

[Roseanna]

What I see is, that people have extremely double standards when it comes to Mary and Edith. We only see  Mary be unkind to one single person (Edith) which makes her a monster and we see Edith be heartless and unfeeling to many people (Carson, the Swiss family, farmer Drake's wife, Mrs Drewe and Mrs Gregson) and she is a Saint. All bad things about Edith get excuses. No thing Mary does gets ever excused nor is anything Mary does ever good enough, because it is of course "just for the few she loves" or even better "only for people lower than she is".

 

But I quit this discussion. It is beating a dead horse and doesn't belong in this episode thread anyway. May the Edith lovers be happy with their adoration of Saint Edith. I can't stand her. 

 

As my last post should show you, I don't see Mary a monster, only a person unable to recognize that her true motives are inside herself which makes her reactions overkill. I liked her a lot when she had important matters to decide on, even when she made mistakes. I wouldn't have condemned her if she had gone to Pamuk of her own free will or tried to take Matthew from Lavinia. What I don't like that she hasn't grown up but for that she would have needed challenges where she had a real possibility to lose.

And it's not only Edith Mary has ben been rude. She had been many times rude to Cora. She was also rude to Blake because he wasn't interested only saving the grand estates but for securing food for the whole population (which is one of most important things of the government during the war), Talbot for the matter he possibly couldn't (in CS) and Mabel for not letting Gillingham go, and even Matthew for putting his conscience before her will.

 

As  for Edith, after being really horrible in S1, she has had real and difficult challenges that hade forced her to make difficult choices which makes her interesting as a character.  Far from regarding her a saint, I would find her a doormat and a bore if she would have been able to sacrifice all her interests for the others.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Roseanna

[Milburn Stone]

I understand the corrections that Edith wasn't actually a nurse for the wounded soldiers of the Great War, but instead found her purpose in helping them in whatever humane ways she could. I also understand that maybe this didn't provide the career opportunity for purpose that she needed after the war. (It could have--she could have translated this experience into other forms of service for the sick or unfortunate--but she didn't.) For a time she then found a glimmer of purpose in writing a newspaper column. And caring for Marigold seemed to be another fruit of her quest for purpose.

 

I can buy that none of these quite did it for her. What I can't buy is that she seems now to be discovering the human need for purpose for the very first time. I could buy it if she said something like:

 

"I've been looking for purpose for a long time, and I think I've finally found it."

 

Or if she said:

 

"I thought I could find enough sense of purpose in [X], but I didn't. At last, I think I have found it."

 

But she didn't say that. She spoke as if it never dawned on her that humans need purpose, and as if she herself hadn't been on a quest for it for at least the last ten years. Again, I have no trouble believing that Edith has found her search fruitless or short of fulfilling until now. I do have trouble believing that her need for purpose comes to her now as a complete revelation.

 

I don't blame Edith for this baffling absence of memory. I blame Fellowes.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Roseanna]

Edith chips away at Mary when she can. Edith snarks in front of the family that Mary is the only one who isn't moving on with her life but this isn't seen as chipping away at Mary for whatever reason. Edith slyly tries to expose Mary for sex week. The list goes on.

 

I think the sisters should both start treating each other better. 

 

They did treat each other better from S2 to S4. Then sniping was an exception.

In CS3 Mary was in her best, she wished Edith well before her wedding (although "at least in this day"), she clearly felt empathy when Edith was jilted and she even encourage Edith in her writing, probably because of Matthew set an example. In CS Mary did some sniping about Gregson but in S4 she was mostly indifferent towards Edith.

 

Sniping came a regular habit again in S5. It was initiated by Mary who already in ep1, instead of showing empathy towards Edith who was in low spirits because Gregson and (and because of Marigold but that Mary didn't of course know), said "cheer up, you spoil the evening"- as if she hadn't herself rushed from the table after six months of Matthew's death and got upset over the gramophone.

 

But sniping really intensified only at the time Mary realized that she hadn't find a new love (hair cutting scene). After Edith disappeared, all were worried but Mary showed total indifference, although any person of sense would have been afraid even of suicide.

 

Edith's remark that Mary couldn't stand that the others would move on was made after ​Mary had shown in many ways contempt for her (refusing to share a room with her in London, making an invitation to the restaurant in an impolite way "even Edith", despising her worry for Marigold "Edith thinks to have invented motherhood"). We had also seen Mary say to Tom that she wanted to "murder" Edith.

 

All in all, Edith can snipe Mary as well but she has done it only in times when Mary can handle it. When Matthew was MIA and Mary mourned him, Edith showed empathy.

 

Therefore, it's not only "behaving better" but about the motives of the sisters. It's probably that Edith would cease sniping Mary if Mary treated her as equal. But that's just what Mary can't do for she needs ​to se Edith as she was in S1. 

 

Irl the only sensible solution for Edith would be to realize that, as she can never got anything but contempt and belittling from Mary, she must avoid her as much as possible and move to London.    

[Avaleigh]

This isn't the thread to get into all of the sniping that happened season 2-4 between Mary and Edith. In season 2 I will quickly point to Edith's gloating face when she sees how hurt Mary is over Matthew's engagement to Lavinia. Even Cora notices what a bitch Edith is being and tells Edith that she isn't helping the situation. In season 3 even though Strallan is back in the picture, she can't hide the fact that she's resentful of Mary on Mary's wedding day but that's supposed to be okay because Edith's happiness wasn't already squared away. Rubbing in Gillingham's engagement in Mary's face unnecessarily in season 4, etc.

[helenamonster]

I think Martha's Jewish - Cora brought up her religion at least once during Season 5 if I recall correctly.  As for the girls not having gone away to school.  Any chance of them having attended a finishing school?

 

Cora talked about her father being Jewish but said that her mother never converted. There's a scene where the Sinderbys come to dinner at Downton and Lord Sinderby asks Cora if it was difficult growing up with a different religion than her father, in a transparent attempt to make Rose and Atticus's blossoming courtship look like it was doomed to fail due to their different faiths.

 

If Cora practiced Judaism, then Mary, Edith, and Sybil would have been recognized as Jewish at birth, which would not have pleased Robert, Violet, or their peers.

 

Judaism is passed down through the maternal line. If a non-Jewish woman marries a Jewish man, as was the case with Cora's parents, then the woman would have to convert in order for their children to be raised Jewish (or the children would have to convert later in life if the wife didn't want to).

[jrlr]

I understand the corrections that Edith wasn't actually a nurse for the wounded soldiers of the Great War, but instead found her purpose in helping them in whatever humane ways she could. I also understand that maybe this didn't provide the career opportunity for purpose that she needed after the war. (It could have--she could have translated this experience into other forms of service for the sick or unfortunate--but she didn't.) For a time she then found a glimmer of purpose in writing a newspaper column. And caring for Marigold seemed to be another fruit of her quest for purpose.

 

I can buy that none of these quite did it for her. What I can't buy is that she seems now to be discovering the human need for purpose for the very first time. I could buy it if she said something like:

 

"I've been looking for purpose for a long time, and I think I've finally found it."

 

Or if she said:

 

"I thought I could find enough sense of purpose in [X], but I didn't. At last, I think I have found it."

 

But she didn't say that. She spoke as if it never dawned on her that humans need purpose, and as if she herself hadn't been on a quest for it for at least the last ten years. Again, I have no trouble believing that Edith has found her search fruitless or short of fulfilling until now. I do have trouble believing that her need for purpose comes to her now as a complete revelation.

 

I don't blame Edith for this baffling absence of memory. I blame Fellowes.

ITA it's Fellowe's fault.  The "Edith finding a purpose" theme is full of sloppy writing.  She wouldn't have been looking for a purpose in life earlier, since she was basically brought up to believe that a purpose in life means marriage and family.  Without that, she's been such a relentlessly unhappy character that it would have been nice to see that the magazine-crisis brought her an unexpected understanding about herself, and she could say something like, "I never realized before that having a purpose could make someone so much happier."   

[Roseanna]

ITA it's Fellowe's fault.  The "Edith finding a purpose" theme is full of sloppy writing.  She wouldn't have been looking for a purpose in life earlier, since she was basically brought up to believe that a purpose in life means marriage and family.  Without that, she's been such a relentlessly unhappy character that it would have been nice to see that the magazine-crisis brought her an unexpected understanding about herself, and she could say something like, "I never realized before that having a purpose could make someone so much happier."   

 

It can, although not necessarily. But if one has a purpose in life, one can bear hard times.     

[Roseanna]

I understand the corrections that Edith wasn't actually a nurse for the wounded soldiers of the Great War, but instead found her purpose in helping them in whatever humane ways she could. I also understand that maybe this didn't provide the career opportunity for purpose that she needed after the war. (It could have--she could have translated this experience into other forms of service for the sick or unfortunate--but she didn't.)

 

Many women did nursing and other works during the war as they considered it as their patriotic duty or they simply had to do works that men had done before. But after the war they began to think what they themselves wanted to do.

 

That is, if they like Vera Brittain who nursed in the continent during WW1 and after it returned to the university and became a writer. It seems that single middle-class women had better chances to start a modern life than aristocratic ladies - or maybe the former even had to work. If so, Edith's main problem was that she could stay at home - so she needed a catastrophe (being jilted) and now a stroke of luck (heritage).

 

Regarding the show, as Sybil had been a nurse, there was no need to repeat the theme (although Fellowes did repeat much). Also, show had already a do-gooder in Isobel. So something other had to be invented for Edith.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, imho, Edith's role as "volunteer" in some ways was harder than Sybil's as "nurse" ... Sybil had training and proscribed tasks that needed to be checked off. Edith's role was to "be available" to "be helpful" (but of course not to overstep her role).  Also generally volunteers are not listened to or respected.  I was surprised and impressed that she stuck with it and did it with enough grace that the soldiers thought she was a champ.  Particularly since she seemed so overwhelmed and adrift early on. My opinion of volunteers in this regard comes from working with volunteers in a hospital setting ... they are really champs ... being vaguely "helpful" is much harder than performing a specific job. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[lucindabelle]

Martha had money. She lives in Newport, home is jaw droppingly huge mansions. It was just that she's a widow and it was tied into her son's inheritance. Cora got her dowry. Everything else would go to the son after the widow died.

She's rich but it's the equivalent of a fixed allowance, for that set! She doesn't have a fortune to dip into, I disagree she'd have said a word to her son to get the inheritance and Cora didn't want her to, either.

I always thought it was a little implausible not one of those grateful officers proposed to edith the English rose who was so nice to them. A soldier didn't likely make a huge distinction with nurse who changes dressing and kind lady who listens and writes letters.

[Andromeda]

I loved Edith taking on the magazine production. That editor should have been fired much sooner -- way too much was left undone with the ship time being just a few hours from then. (I'm a magazine editor in my real life, and that's just inexcusable.)
 

Several other journalists chimed in to make this point and I agree. Late nights and deadlines are just part of the job. The only issue I have is that there should be "people," not just one secretary-- and at 7 p.m. it was more than early enough to get messages to at least a few of the skilled staff.
And speaking of skills, I know Fellowes cuts out the parts that are uninteresting, but watching Edith magically understand layout was kind of like her magically knowing how to play the flute. I don't need to see her practice or learn, but a line or two about it would go a long way. Because editing and layout are not at all the same as writing, which we've seen her do, or at least talk about. Even the observation that the article is underset by two lines is an editorial one.

 
I do wonder what happened to the rest of the staff that Edith had to do everything hands on (except for one secretary). Had they all gone home for the evening, leaving their sections unfinished? Weird. There should have been an artist on hand to do the layout and production, and other editors. I am guessing the editor-in-chief had left a few sections undone, for...reasons. 

 

Anyway, I guess I'll excuse that at a TV drama thing. I love Edith's story. Mary is so annoying and hateful toward her.

 

I love Edith showing her flats to her father, and him being genuinely impressed and interested.
 
I agree with many that Tom's appearance at the wedding really stole from the newlyweds. That sucked. It's not like he's that close to the staff anymore.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Andromeda

[renatae]

I'm so glad Mr. Fellowes decided to return a character for a change. Love Tom!

[SusanSunflower]

re: Tom and Wedding -- do we know if he even knew it was "wedding day"?  

Mary had received a letter from him from America the day before, (I think), and the mail service was fast -- mail traveled regularly and "quickly" on ocean liners (5-6days https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch3en/conc3en/linertransatlantic.html)so Tom must has boarded almost immediately after posting that letter to arrive -- having to make the transit from Southhampton or where ever -- to reach Downton wiht Sybbie in tow.  

and I note, we still haven't been told what prompted such a sudden departure or unannounced arrival. 

[Llywela]

re: Tom and Wedding -- do we know if he even knew it was "wedding day"? 

Not until he arrived, I don't think. He said he'd gone to the house and was told where everyone could be found.

[queenanne]

Also in season 1 when Tom arrives as a chauffeur he starts to talk with Bates who was doing something with Lord G collars, O´Brien was hearing the conversation, Bates tell that he get some clothes but another is given to charity, Tom said something about that giving collars is not very useful and O´brien reprimended him and she said that keeping some of the clothe is one of the Valet and Lady Maid privileges; i think that she said also to reminded him about his "place" betwen the servants, because in fact O´Brien and Bates were in the top only bellow of Carson and Mrs Hughes.

 

So, since this episode we are reminded that it would be one of Baxter's jobs to make clothes over, isn't it possible that what we are supposed to be seeing, is "Valet and Lady's Maid receive some of the out of date clothing that they themselves labored to work on?

 

If so, I think it's a kind and appropriate gesture, redeeming some of the valet's and lady's maid slaving over the clothes to look nice.

[Wordsworth]

• Cora and the Coat:  We've all said things we've regretted at one time or another because of fatigue or irritation.  Mary told the women more than once that her mother wouldn't mind.  She probably ordinarily wouldn't have save that she'd been through the ringer that afternoon and took her anger out on the wrong people.  She admitted as much and made amends.  That's what makes Cora great.

Spratt & Denker:  I can take or leave Denker, but, since Molesley is no longer the most hapless character on screen, they had to give his spot to someone.  Spratt, with his rigid worldview and his bulging eyes, is perfect.  I love his scenes.  They're just what I need to get through Anna's miscarriages and this whole hospital business.

The Incredible Re-emerging Tom:  I saw him in the background before he was noticed.  Glad to see him; sorry Boston's food has agreed with him too much.

Yes, I'm shipping Baxter and Molesley.  Is it Bolesley or Maxter?

I loved that nothing ruined the wedding.  That's just what I wanted to see.

[Camera One]

I liked Edith's storyline with getting the magazine ready, and she has some chemistry with the agent.  She was able to find an editor so quickly?  

 

I too am tired of the sniping over the hospital.  It makes no sense why Dr. Clarkson would suddenly be reconsidering after that rude remark.   What a waste of Maggie Smith and Penelope Wilton.

 

I was embarrassed for Mrs. Hughes when Cora yelled at her.  Not enjoyable to watch at all.  

 

I did like Mrs. Patmore trying to find a dress for Mrs. Hughes and the reactions with Anna and Daisy when it arrived.

 

Thomas finding another job is interesting as well, though i wish he'd stop moaning about that other guy not liking him.  They had two such scenes with Baxter in this episode, which was unnecessary.

 

The time with Spratt and Denker could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

I'm still not a fan of Carson and Mrs. Hughes marrying, but the wedding was nice.  I had no idea Tom was coming back.  That was just awkward and I'm not looking forward to more retread with him.

[TaurusRose]

On 10/11/2015 at 1:47 PM, DianeDobbler said:

Danker has the world's worst wig. 

True story.

On 1/17/2016 at 10:26 PM, TiredMe said:

Loved Robert picking up,Sibbie and telling her to give Donk a kiss. Lol

I liked this as well.  I guess he's given up the fight against Donk.  LOL

On 1/17/2016 at 11:28 PM, ZoloftBlob said:

How is that different from any other time Daisy's IQ drops to 10 to suite the plot?

Daisy's IQ has never been above 10 no matter the plot.  She's a friggin' idiot.

On 1/18/2016 at 0:08 AM, CleoCaesar said:

I also recently saw Brooklyn in theatres, a film about an Irish person who immigrates to America and how difficult of a transition it was. Tom spends, what, a few months in America and runs back home? That's only slightly more than a vacation, not an honest attempt at adaptation to a new environment. He only appears to have adapted to American portion sizes.

American portions were not supersized in the 1920s.  I have china from a deceased aunt and I can't believe how tiny the dinner plates are.  Actually, the dinner plates are roughly the same size as the salad plates in my everyday set.  I can't be certain when the set was purchased but I'd say somewhere between 1970-1980. 

On 1/18/2016 at 3:58 AM, JasmineFlower said:

Love that Mary is jealous of Edith's success with her magazine. Serves her right to be outshined and have to sit there and have Edith's accomplishments recognized, goodness knows Edith has had to do the same for Mary for insignificant things or things she's not nearly as responsible for. Really happy for Edith standing up for herself and her magazine and definitely hoping she's finally found a guy who is genuinely interested in her and excited to be with just her, not settling in any way.

Mary has been conditioned to believe the sun rises and sets on her ass.  I remember back when Sybil was alive and the sisters were being introduced to a visiting duke.  Mary gave Sybil the stank eye when the duke singled her out for special attention.  

On 1/18/2016 at 9:23 AM, Haleth said:

The child who plays Marigold is odd looking.  (I'm sorry to criticize a child, but yeesh.)

Agreed and I'm not sorry.  Funny looking applies to men, women and children equally. 

On 1/18/2016 at 6:57 PM, Constantinople said:

Rose - Atticus (too early to tell)

I think these two will make it.  They seem to have the real thing going for them.  

On 1/19/2016 at 5:32 PM, kassa said:

As for Tom unrealistically bailing out of Boston quickly, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.  “No Irish need apply” was still very much in force in that time period, and while he would have had a going concern with his garage or whatever it was, Sybil’s social expectations would have been limited compared to what she would have at home.  Yes, sure, the Crawleys would no doubt have paid for her to go to a fancy school, but she’d be limited to the Catholic girl schools or a minority in others.  Or he could send her to the local school, but that would harm her chances of assimilating should she ever go back to England.

Practically every ethnic group that arrived in the U.S. had trouble assimilating back then.  

[AZChristian]

Regarding Danker.  Wig bad - yes.  But she's actually a very pretty woman.

 

[TaurusRose]

On 1/22/2016 at 10:16 AM, ShadowFacts said:

 

It's plain to see that both are guilty of unbecoming behavior.  One or the other of them comes off worse in particular episodes.  At their ages, their patterns aren't likely to change.  Which of the two is more tolerable probably depends on so many factors for individual viewers.  I'm sick of both of their toddler-like jealousies.  I'm past hoping they're going to grow up at this point.

This.  

[whateverdgaf]

On 03/03/2017 at 9:59 PM, taurusrose said:

 

It's plain to see that both are guilty of unbecoming behavior.  One or the other of them comes off worse in particular episodes.  At their ages, their patterns aren't likely to change.  Which of the two is more tolerable probably depends on so many factors for individual viewers.  I'm sick of both of their toddler-like jealousies.  I'm past hoping they're going to grow up at this point.

On 03/03/2017 at 9:59 PM, taurusrose said:

This.  

Except that Edith does now know where to draw the line. She knows when to show empathy and kindness towards Mary, look at the episode with the race when she goes to comfort her after the crash. Mary never shows Edith that level of compassion.