The Godfather Epic

[Spartan Girl]

Honestly would swapping Sofia for Winona really have changed anything? Mary’s storyline was trite at best and icky at worst — Vincent was her damn COUSIN!

And the whole premise of Michael’s eleventh hour remorse and trying to redeem himself was bullshit anyway.

[caracas1914]

9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly would swapping Sofia for Winona really have changed anything? Mary’s storyline was trite at best and icky at worst — Vincent was her damn COUSIN!

And the whole premise of Michael’s eleventh hour remorse and trying to redeem himself was bullshit anyway.

 

Though Godfather 3 gave us the memorable line:  "Just when I thought I was out...they PULL me back in"

Duvall being left out was really the biggest problem, Coppola in hindsight realized that how integral Tom was to the story.   Tom was like the Greek Chorus/Conscience of the movies, of the family but still separate.

Francis had been battered badly financially and even critically with his Zoetrope studio woes so Paramount essentially had him by the short hairs.   The only Godfather film that Francis essentially did what he wanted without major studio opposition/friction was the middle film. 

Godfather 3: The bones of the story I thought were good, with Michael having the hubris to try to whitewash himself and his sins by legitimizing his business,  which of course was a Sisyphean endeavor.  Some of the dialogue between Michael and Kay gave them some closure,, and the machinations with the Vatican  echoed back to one of the themes of The Godfather saga  that the Mafia was like any other big business, with corruption/duplicity/murder on all levels.

Tom in the middle of all this, with Robert Duvall, oh what might have been.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

I think Ryder (or any real actress of the right age and physical type) would have helped enormously with the Mary scenes, because poor Sofia Coppola was just lost as an on-camera presence in a major role. But the film was too little and too late. It never made a compelling case for its existence, even when pros like Pacino, Garcia, Keaton, Shire, and Mantegna were center stage.

Coppola made four great films in those heady New Hollywood days of the '70s (the first two Godfathers, The Conversation, and Apocalypse Now). Few of his "young genius" peers of that era fell farther once the '70s were over. I guess Cimino and Bogdanovich did, but most of the others who would be in that conversation -- Scorsese, Malick, Allen, Spielberg, De Palma, etc., and Altman who was a little older but a late bloomer -- had highly regarded work in early and later periods. 

Sure, it's easy enough to find people who really like one or more of FFC's later films, either for nostalgic reasons or because they really think they're good movies, but there's a big gap in standing between his '70s films and the rest. 

Now he seems to do as much "re-direction" as he does direction. We've had two alt versions of Apocalypse Now since 2000, and he's gone back into the editing room with The Outsiders, The Cotton Club, and now Godfather III. I won't be surprised a bit if he tinkers with Peggy Sue Got Married or Gardens of Stone or the Dracula movie next.

I don't want to be too petty about it, though. If you make four great films and your ceiling thereafter is "decent," you're still finishing ahead of most people who make movies.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Simon Boccanegra

[txhorns79]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:34 PM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Peggy Sue Got Married

Maybe he can have Nicholas Cage re-dub his lines in a normal voice.  Otherwise though, Kathleen Turner was excellent in that movie and it was actually very lovely. 

 

On 12/11/2020 at 1:51 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly would swapping Sofia for Winona really have changed anything? Mary’s storyline was trite at best and icky at worst — Vincent was her damn COUSIN!

I will admit I never understood why they decided to do an incest storyline.  It was such a weird choice, and it was really blech watching Mary pout over her father trying to keep her from continuing to have sex with her first cousin.  I do think swapping Sofia with Winona would have been better, if only because Winona can act, while Sofia was wooden. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

• So it seems this year, IFC and Sundance  think The Godfather  and The Godfather II are Christmas movies! I love the first. Just love it, while also being ashamed and horrified at myself for rooting for Vito and Michael! Al SHOULD HAVE received the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor.

All that said, WHAT THE FUCK, Sundance??!!🤬🤬🤬🤬

You air R-rated movies and don’t bleep the F-bombs, but you replace Woltz’s “ass” with “stuff” when he’s screaming at Tom about that young actress that Johnny “ruined”?!!!🤬🤬🤬

And they edited out the measly seconds of Sunny boinking Sandra along with the thumping and knocking sounds that Tom heard and smirked/laughed over, when we went to look for Sunny to tell him to get downstairs to the meeting.
 

I was pissed off enough to delete it from my dvr, and pop in my Blu-ray restored edition. No telling what words they would have used for Fuck.

If the network or censors were worried about minors watching or fragile ears, then maybe don’t air it on Christmas morning, but at night? Nimrods.

And I’m also peeved that the restored blue ray edition doesn’t include those deleted scenes that FUCKING USA NETWORK got the rights to air when they aired “The Godfather Saga” many years ago.

it includes

• Mama Corleone asking Sunny in Italian whether Vito will survive after they learn about his shooting
• Michael and Kay in bed when Michael calls Tom to tell him he won’t make it home
• Vito visiting a dying Genco
• The whining the mortician does when Tom calls in the favor-the mealy-mouthed asshole.
• 
  Then in II
• it opens with one of Sunny’s daughters, asking for blessing to marry her boyfriend.
• Michael finally finding Fabrizio and getting revenge for his part in killing Appollonia.

I think there’s an extra scene with Connie and some in the Young Vito/DeNiro flashbacks.

Maybe I’ll get it when they release the 50th edition in 2022?

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[VCRTracking]

I actually like Michael's hair in Part III. His character is trying to get away from his old ruthless self in the previous movies so it makes sense he would want to look very different. If you want cool longer, slicked back hair you have Andy Garcia as Vincent who is the new heir to the Corleone legacy.

 

[VCRTracking]

So I never saw the movie BOOK CLUB because I'm not the target audience so I didn't know about:

 

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:40 PM, BetterButter said:

 

Coppola should've kept this in the drafts, totally unnecessary.

Andy Garcia though,  😍

[MissAlmond]

Was The Godfather Coda: The Death of Michael Corleone actually released in December 2020 or was it pushed back?  If it did come out, how did it perform?  IMO, the whole redo seemed less about Coppola's true vision and more on removing the sting of criticism Sofia received from Coppola's decision on casting her. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by MissAlmond

[MissAlmond]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:09 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

So it seems this year, IFC and Sundance  think The Godfather  and The Godfather II are Christmas movies! I love the first.

LOL but believe it or not, showing The Godfather saga during the Christmas holidays is nothing new.  Years ago one of the cable networks - either A&E or Bravo - used to air it around Christmas, editing footage reflecting the holiday to promote it.  I vividly remember one commercial using the Luca Brasi reveal.  When Sonny opened the newspaper, it cut to a nutcracker falling out while The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy played in the background.  It was wild.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by MissAlmond

[Inquisitionist]

On 6/8/2017 at 10:48 AM, VCRTracking said:

He was actually much younger than the character IRL. Brando was in his 40s but they used a lot of makeup to make him look like 60 something Vito Corleone:

In Godfather II, Vito's birth year is given as 1891, making the character only 55 or so at the start of The Godfather.  Perhaps they retconned his age and had initially envisioned him as older.. 

On 8/16/2018 at 12:48 PM, VCRTracking said:

I was late in the Memoriam thread commenting on the passing of Morgana King, who played the Don's wife Carmela, aka "Mama Corleone" in The Godfather Pts 1 and 2. She died last March but the news was only announced yesterday. She was primarily a jazz singer. I love her singing "Luna Mezzo Mare" at the opening wedding in part 1. Also in Part II where she admonishes Connie at the Communion party "You go see your children first, and then worry about waiting on line to see you're brother. Like everybody else." Or at the dinner tale when she makes a contemptuous comment about Connie's fiancee and Fredo's wife in Sicilian to Tom Hagen!

Morgana King didn't sound like any Italian-American lady I ever heard from that era.  I heard no Italian accent when she spoke.  

On 12/30/2020 at 12:09 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And they edited out the measly seconds of Sunny boinking Sandra along with the thumping and knocking sounds that Tom heard and smirked/laughed over, when we went to look for Sunny to tell him to get downstairs to the meeting.

I think Sonny was boinking Lucy Mancini, who was a bride's maid.  Sandra was his wife's name.

FFC talked about the making of The Godfather in this NPR interview earlier this year.  The story about surreptitiously auditioning Brando is great.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Morgana King didn't sound like any Italian-American lady I ever heard from that era.  I heard no Italian accent when she spoke. 

I know! When I saw Godfather II, and saw that she and Vito spoke to each other in Italian, I wondered how she got rid of the accent over some thirty years later! My parents still have their Indian accents even after living in the U.S. for over 35 years!

And because I'm an anal-retentive wench, I notice how DeNiro's Vito didn't wear a wedding ring, yet in the opening of The Godfather, we see Marlon Brando's Vito wearing a thick band as he's stroking that kitty cat!

I read where Brando was 48 when they filmed the first movie--but Vito was supposed to be older. I just wish I knew what year it was when the first movie opened.

6 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I think Sonny was boinking Lucy Mancini, who was a bride's maid.  Sandra was his wife's name.

D'OH! You're right. Why did I think his wife's name was Theresa? Oh, right, that was Tom's wife's name!

[Spartan Girl]

So AMC aired The Godfather Coda: The Death of Michael Corleone and yeah, IT’S THE SAME DAMN MOVIE. The only real difference is that they cut the opening recap—the only thing Part III really had going for it—and cut/rearranged a few scenes. Such bullshit.

Up until now, was too busy being squicked out by the sheer incest of Vincent and Mary that I completely neglected the fact that there’s a seven year age difference between them. Double ew!

God, the way she comes up to him at the party makes it clear that she’s already got her eyes on him…girl, STOP IT! He’s your COUSIN!

[bunnyblue]

The trilogy is on Peacock premium and I decided to watch Part III for the first time in years.

Yeah, Sophia Coppola is still terrible; she did this weird lip curl/sneer that was completely distracting. 

The cousin incest: I never realized that Vincent & Mary actually had sex until this viewing. If they had never met until Michael's party and didn't realize they were cousins until after they felt an attraction to each other, then maybe I could understand why they were reluctant to end their relationship. However, they clearly state that they knew each other as children and knew they were cousins when they reconnected at the party. Yet, Mary pursued Vincent and he was more than willing to make out and sleep with his first cousin. Gross.

I remembered Bridget Fonda having a bigger role and I kept expecting her to reappear at some point after the attack in Vincent's apartment but, nope, she just disappeared. 

For all this movie's faults, I do like that a few of the original actors who had minor roles in the first movie made appearances: Calo the bodyguard, Enzo the baker, Lucy Mancini, and maybe one more I'm forgetting. 

I wonder if Al Neri's expanded role was because someone had to fill the huge hole left by Duvall's/Tom's absence. It's kind of funny that after all the years, Michael's longest lasting advisers turned out to be Connie and Al. 

Speaking of Connie, I like that she finally got her hands dirty by killing Don Altobello and that she seemed to relish it. She went from spitting on Michael at the end of The Godfather to killing for him; she certainly embraced her role as Mafia Matriarch. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 3/3/2021 at 8:36 AM, MissAlmond said:

LOL but believe it or not, showing The Godfather saga during the Christmas holidays is nothing new.  Years ago one of the cable networks - either A&E or Bravo - used to air it around Christmas, editing footage reflecting the holiday to promote it.  I vividly remember one commercial using the Luca Brasi reveal.  When Sonny opened the newspaper, it cut to a nutcracker falling out while The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy played in the background.  It was wild.  

I will never understand this phenomenon of airing movies that have nothing to do with Easter/Thanksgiving/Christmas during the respective time of the year. These aren't even family friendly movies like "The Sound Of Music" and "The Wizard Of Oz" that everyone can enjoy, it's always heavy hitting adult things like this or "Gone With The Wind".

[Hiyo]

Quote

Speaking of Connie, I like that she finally got her hands dirty by killing Don Altobello and that she seemed to relish it. She went from spitting on Michael at the end of The Godfather to killing for him; she certainly embraced her role as Mafia Matriarch. 

Connie definitely had one of the more interesting arcs throughout the trilogy.

Although I would say she didn't quite relish killing Don Altobello, rather it was a bit bittersweet for her as he was her godfather, no? Still, family trumps all in the end, and yes, she was definitely the matriarch of that Corleones.

[JAYJAY1979]

I remember my late mom was a huge fan of the godfather movies (and where she became a fan of Diane Keaton and Al Pacino for life).

The one thing she said about Godfather 3 was that it was interesting having Michael's daughter Mary want to be in the Mafia lifestyle...but felt bad that Sofia was tasked with such a huge role with little talent.  She didn't think Winona would have been any better since Winona seemed to play more introverted roles at the time...and Mary wasn't supposed to be that.

Watching the movie..I do think Winona would also have been a miscast...but also hearing that Madonna was considered for Mary...I do wonder if maybe going for an unknown  as Mary would have worked better (one not related to Coppola)

 

[BetterButter]

 

 

[SlovakPrincess]

On 7/17/2021 at 2:38 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

The one thing she said about Godfather 3 was that it was interesting having Michael's daughter Mary want to be in the Mafia lifestyle...but felt bad that Sofia was tasked with such a huge role with little talent.  She didn't think Winona would have been any better since Winona seemed to play more introverted roles at the time...and Mary wasn't supposed to be that.

Watching the movie..I do think Winona would also have been a miscast...but also hearing that Madonna was considered for Mary...I do wonder if maybe going for an unknown  as Mary would have worked better (one not related to Coppola)

 

Madonna ... as Mary??  Ok, now I'm even more convinced that Sofia was not the main problem, and that the entire character was a cypher.  Madonna, Winona Ryder and Sofia Coppola should never have been considered for the exact same part, that's craziness, LOL.  Did they just plan to adjust the script around whoever signed up?  

They struck gold with the little-known Italian actress who played poor, doomed Apolonia in the first movie ... here, they should've done something similar, and focused on auditioning for an actress who had convincing chemistry with Andy Garcia.  I think Sofia brought the innocence they wanted for the role, but she and Garcia had no spark.  Ryder would've done a lot better bringing some life to Mary's trite and uninspired lines, but it would never have been a great role.  

I always felt bad for Sofia, because she never should've been put in that position.  Glad she went on to a successful directing career!

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, BetterButter said:

 

 

Dare I hope that the deleted scenes that USA aired many moons ago (Mortician whining about having to repay Vito's favor and railing on his wife for ever being friends with Mama Corleone-and the favor turned out to be Vito asking him to clean Sunny up for the funeral; Mama Corleone asking Sunny if Vito is alive after they shot him; scenes of Michael & Kay in New York before they heard about Vito's shooting) in this 50th anniversary airing?

I don't care; it's released on my birthday weekend and I.AM.SO.GOING.

I will triple mask myself when I go to the theatre and choose late late latest airing.

[Popples]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Dare I hope that the deleted scenes that USA aired many moons ago (Mortician whining about having to repay Vito's favor and railing on his wife for ever being friends with Mama Corleone-and the favor turned out to be Vito asking him to clean Sunny up for the funeral; Mama Corleone asking Sunny if Vito is alive after they shot him; scenes of Michael & Kay in New York before they heard about Vito's shooting) in this 50th anniversary airing?

I don't care; it's released on my birthday weekend and I.AM.SO.GOING.

I will triple mask myself when I go to the theatre and choose late late latest airing.

I saw those scenes a few years ago when Cinemax had the near 7-hour version of the first two films in chronological order and I want to know why they haven't put that on DVD yet.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, Popples said:

I saw those scenes a few years ago when Cinemax had the near 7-hour version of the first two films in chronological order and I want to know why they haven't put that on DVD yet.

I know, right? I thought for sure it would be on the blu ray set, at least, but nope.

Aggravating. And in Part II, we see that Michael finds Fabrizio and kills him. And in the opening scenes, one of Sonny’s daughters asks his permission to marry and Connie showing up. Mama laying into her.

[Simon Boccanegra]

It's hardly the biggest problem with the movie, but III muddies up the timeline.  Anthony and Mary are born within the span of the first film, in 1951 (a year after the Michael/Kay reunion) and 1953 respectively. The second film picks up with them as children in 1958. Anthony is having his First Communion. So far so good, as he would be seven. 

But it seems Puzo and Coppola badly want the kids to be younger than 28 and 26 at the start of the third film (1979). Even for children with a very traditional and imposing Italian family background on one side, they're too enmeshed. Anthony is played by a 28-year-old, but that isn’t how he’s written, with Mom marching him into Dad’s office to deliver his “I’m gonna do my own thing” statement. Mary is even less convincing as the age she would be, played by 19-year-old Sofia Coppola, replacing 19-year-old Winona Ryder, and really getting "babe in the woods" writing. 

I guess Puzo and Coppola had their hearts set on developments with just-adult children (the defiant son quitting law school to sing, the daughter falling in love with a dangerous man and dying for her father's sins), and they were equally dead-set on the 1979-80 period so everything could coincide with real-life Vatican scandals and mysteries: the suspicious death of a new pope, the hanging suicide-or-murder of the banker, etc. Also, Michael (born 1920) needed to be "old" to a certain degree. Frankly, I think he gets written and played as if he's more than just pushing 60. 

By the way, this may just be an unfortunate drawback of our high-def age, but when they show a newspaper headline in this movie, it’s obvious that the text is unrelated. At one point there’s one that reads “Vatican Accountant Missing,” and what’s underneath it is a Cold War stew of paragraphs from various stories: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Khrushchev, Gorbachev, Castro. And it stays on screen for a good long time.

[SlovakPrincess]

Is it weird that one of my all time favorite scenes in Godfather I is Sonny just beating the absolute shit out of Connie's husband, and even biting him??  Quite frankly, given what happens later, Sonny should've killed the guy.  

[Fool to cry]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Is it weird that one of my all time favorite scenes in Godfather I is Sonny just beating the absolute shit out of Connie's husband, and even biting him??  Quite frankly, given what happens later, Sonny should've killed the guy.  

A couple of years ago I went to our main library where they have a room the videos are kept and they have stations where people can play them and watch them on monitors with headphones. I saw a guy watching the scene of Sonny beating up Carlo, and he was going "Yeah! Get em!"(not too loudly) and punching the air!

Edited January 16, 2022 by Fool to cry

[Spartan Girl]

20 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Is it weird that one of my all time favorite scenes in Godfather I is Sonny just beating the absolute shit out of Connie's husband, and even biting him??  Quite frankly, given what happens later, Sonny should've killed the guy.  

Nope, it’s my favorite part too! And yes, he should have killed him.

[benteen]

I still wish they would release The Godfather Saga on blu-ray.  I don't buy blu-ray's anymore but would make an exception for that.

[Fool to cry]

Wow, Matthew Goode's Robert Evans impression is incredible!

 

[Tom Holmberg]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:04 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Is it weird that one of my all time favorite scenes in Godfather I is Sonny just beating the absolute shit out of Connie's husband, and even biting him??  Quite frankly, given what happens later, Sonny should've killed the guy.  

"The Simpsons" had an episode where Marge beats up a mugger in a parody of this scene.

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, Fool to cry said:

Wow, Matthew Goode's Robert Evans impression is incredible!

 

Heh, they really upped the likability factor replacing Armie Hammer with Miles Teller.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 2/1/2022 at 2:56 PM, Fool to cry said:

Wow, Matthew Goode's Robert Evans impression is incredible!

 

Wait, what? They've cast someone to play Pacino (looks NOTHING like him) when Pacino was the last to be cast as Michael? What about Robert Redford? James Caan? Even the dude they cast to play Brando...doesn't look like...Brando. What about Diane Keaton? Talia Shire?

Are they doing this because of the 50th anniversary of the movie?

I've seen the making of this movie and enough interviews to know of the difficulty Francis Ford Coppola had getting this film made.

But sure, make a movie about the problems getting the movie made; throw in lines for draaaammmaaaaaaa and some real life mafia criminals, to boot! Hey, I didn't know the mob financed this movie!

[Fool to cry]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Wait, what? They've cast someone to play Pacino (looks NOTHING like him) when Pacino was the last to be cast as Michael? What about Robert Redford? James Caan? Even the dude they cast to play Brando...doesn't look like...Brando. What about Diane Keaton? Talia Shire?

Are they doing this because of the 50th anniversary of the movie?

I've seen the making of this movie and enough interviews to know of the difficulty Francis Ford Coppola had getting this film made.

But sure, make a movie about the problems getting the movie made; throw in lines for draaaammmaaaaaaa and some real life mafia criminals, to boot! Hey, I didn't know the mob financed this movie!

I am kinda interested in how the movie got made despite huge opposition from Italian American groups and organized crime. If I wanted to see a fictional take focused on Coppola it would be about the filming of Apocalypse Now. Also would like to see someone imitate young Pacino when he still had the high voice and not the deep smokers rasp of Scent of a Woman!

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Fool to cry said:

I am kinda interested in how the movie got made despite huge opposition from Italian American groups and organized crime. If I wanted to see a fictional take focused on Coppola it would be about the filming of Apocalypse Now. Also would like to see someone imitate young Pacino when he still had the high voice and not the deep smokers rasp of Scent of a Woman!

You can get all that from the making of The Godfather. Coppola talks a lot about how Pacino wasn't even considered because he was unknown at the time. They wanted Robert Redford to play Michael. Yeah. Robert. And that it was his daughter, Sophia in the christening scene at the end.

 

[Fool to cry]

49 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

You can get all that from the making of The Godfather. Coppola talks a lot about how Pacino wasn't even considered because he was unknown at the time. They wanted Robert Redford to play Michael. Yeah. Robert. And that it was his daughter, Sophia in the christening scene at the end.

 

I've seen the making of docs. The screentests are crazy. DeNiro auditioning for Sonny and Coppola forced by the studio to test James Caan for Michael. Seeing Robert Evans shown to be completely wrong about not wanting Brando and Pacino and every other creative decision would be enjoyable.

[Fool to cry]

 

 

 

[Columbo]

Rewatched the first two Godfathers for the millionth time the other day. Michael is so cold and evil in the second film. Because at least in the first one there's occasional glimpses of humanity, and you could make the case he does what he does for his family, but in the second film he's like some kind of heartless monster, solely dedicated towards maintaining power. Like there's a scene in the movie where he berates Tom for a job offer he received, even though Tom turned the job down. And he berates Tom in such a cruel way. Quite frankly I think one of the reasons Francis included the young Vito scenes was to give viewers a break from the evilness of Michael. Makes me wonder if Michael was really evil all along and just needed the right set of circumstances to bring out his true personality. If Michael really was evil does that put a different context of Vito not wanting Michael to be involved in Mafia business? Instead of it being a father wanting his son to make a better life for himself instead of getting involved in crime it was a father who realised the darkness and intelligence of his son and how if he got involved in the family business that Vito had so carefully built over the years it could lead their family down a much darker path.

 

[Orbert]

I always figured it was because Michael was also a war veteran.  He was a "civilian" to the family, but Michael knew the cold-bloodedness of military war, a very different kind of war than the families fought with each other.  The families fight each other with a fierceness and dedication that comes with fighting for your literal family, your mother, your brothers, your sisters.  In military war, a different kind of loyalty and fierceness is trained into you.

When the attempt was made on Don Vito's life, Michael was pulled into the family business (or inserted himself into it), and when Sonny was killed, there was a change.  I think the two backgrounds combined in Michael to produce something beyond both.  His coordinated attacks on the other families showed military precision and thinking.  His ruthlessness showed a military focus on the goal, with "acceptable losses" as part of the equation.  His was a type of leadership not seen before.  But with that came a lack of human compassion which was also somehow amplified.  To care for Kay and his children, he felt that he had to become emotionally detached in order to make the hard decisions.  It was "tough love" taken to a terrible extreme.  I never really saw it as evil, just a guy who lost the plot but followed it to the end anyway.

Or something like that.

[BlackberryJam]

I was of the impression that the murder of his first wife really changed him. He was away from his family, away from the business, putting what he'd done behind him, building a new life. And then they murdered her.

When he returns to New York he is colder, unwilling to attach to Kay in the same way, but he wants her back in his life, and he wants children. He never lets her be his partner or his confidant. He doesn't want to get too close because he could lose her too. He then goes on a complete rampage to eliminate every possible threat. And in doing so, loses his own humanity. 

[Orbert]

That's a good point.  I forgot about Appolonia and how that must have affected him.

[Columbo]

But what about the famous scene outside the hospital where Michael manages to light Enzo's cigarette because Enzo's hands were shaking? Enzo was a solider in world war two like Michael but he didn't have the same steely eyed determination as him.

[Orbert]

Enzo was in WWII, but was a civilian with regards to the family wars.  The son of a baker.  This was a different kind of situation for him, I guess, and he was nervous.  Everyone's different.  Michael was always very quiet and calculating.  He had to be, the youngest brother, the baby of the family (or was Connie younger than him?  I don't remember).  He learned to keep quiet and plan his next move, his revenge, carefully.

I'm just saying that it was a combination of circumstances and personality that made Michael into the monster that he eventually became.  The quiet, pensive nature, the military background, the family business, and being thrust into a leadership position he didn't want but felt he had to take.  Observing Sonny's fiery, explosive temper, and Fredo's... let's call it "wimpiness", I think it's good to remember that Michael was of the same stock, just a different mix.  

[Morrigan2575]

I haven't read the books but, my understanding is that the Michael/Kay love story is much deeper and it's obvious she's his OTP. Apparently he actually listens to her in the book and views her as a partner, instead of the movie where he shut her out.

One of these days I'll have to read the book.

[GHScorpiosRule]

23 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

One of these days I'll have to read the book.

It's really good. I finally read it a few years ago, after having watched the movies multiple times (except for the last. Once was more than enough, and that was when it came out), and the movie is pretty much lifted from the book. Except for a chunk which features what'sherface-Connie's bridesmaid who was boinking Sunny? and Johnny get involved. Glad that didn't make the cut into the movie.

And Connie is the baby of the family. I just think Michael just got...colder as the years passed. I do believe that Vito really thought and wanted Michael to not get involved with the business and be a legitimate citizen. Like he said, "Senator Corleone" was one of his ambitions. But I absolutely LOVE Michael in the first movie.

[benteen]

As I recall in the book, Enzo was an Italian POW held in America.  The father of Enzo's wife appealed to the Don on Connie's wedding to find a way for him to stay in America, which the Don was.   

After Michael gets punched, he asks Tom.what happened to Enzo.  Tom said Enzo was fine and Michael tells him that he helped him with the Don.  Tom makes it clear that Enzo will be rewarded for his help.

[BlackberryJam]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I haven't read the books but, my understanding is that the Michael/Kay love story is much deeper and it's obvious she's his OTP. Apparently he actually listens to her in the book and views her as a partner, instead of the movie where he shut her out.

One of these days I'll have to read the book.

It's been years since I read it, but I don't recall Kay being his OTP, or there even being the concept of an OTP in the novel. The relationships were much more layered than that.

Michael loved Kay, but it was an emotional lightning when he saw Apollonia, which his friends in Italy actually laugh about. Michael sees Apollonia and immediately falls in love. He then sets about wooing her in the traditional way, first through speaking with her father. 

Because of her early, and violent, death, I'm sure Michael idealizes her. She has become his perfect woman, with Kay as...Kay, the woman he knows who he used to be, loves him and bears his children. When Kay confesses the abortion, which is one of the most powerful "relationship" scenes in the movie, Michael immediately demonizes her. 

 

[Tenshinhan]

The novel and the film are very far removed from one another, and in my mind it is best to view them as separate beasts. 

I wouldn't mind seeing them try to adapt the novel again someday, either in film or in television.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Tenshinhan

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

The novel and the film are very far removed from one another,

I disagree. As noted above, aside from a section focusing on Johnny and bridesmaid, the movie is just like the book. That's also because Puzo wrote or co-wrote the screenplay.

[Tenshinhan]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I disagree. As noted above, aside from a section focusing on Johnny and bridesmaid, the movie is just like the book. That's also because Puzo wrote or co-wrote the screenplay.

The Johnny sections take up a significant amount of the story.  It's not something that can just be excised away like it's nothing.

But that's really only the tip of the iceberg.  The characterization of everyone is notably different from novel to film, while the story itself goes into different directions between versions.

The film is a loose adaptation of the novel in my view, and Puzo's contributions don't really change that.  If someone were to attempt a more faithful version of the book, I think that the end product would look vastly different than what we got in Coppola's film.

[DearEvette]

Yeah, I remember the movie being one of the more faithful adaptations of an original book. 

The book does a lot more in depth background character stuff on side characters.  For instance in the movie during the lead up to that final climactic montage -- the one with the violence intercut with the baptism -- there is one of the family's younger, devoted capos cleaning his gun.  That character was barely in the movie, but in the book we know all about why he is so devoted to the Corleone's and he is ride-or-die.  And in the book we learn a lot more about the family's legit company, the Olive Oil company they owned, which is mentioned in passing in the first movie.  And there is a lot more overt racism in the book which Copolla downplayed or erased in the movie.

But overall it captures the book extremely well.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Kay being his OTP, or there even being the concept of an OTP in the novel. The relationships were much more layered than that.

OTP was me just being lazy.

As I said I haven't read the books so I Googled and surprisingly this is a pretty popular discussion on various boards. I've seen people argue both, that he loved Appolonia beyond measure and settled for Kay. I've seen people say that he was thinking of Kay even while in Italy and that Kay is the only person he listens to and that can change his mind about things.

Without reading the book for myself I can't tell which is correct. I know that from the movie the impression I got was that Michael loved Kay pre-Italy and Post-Italy. I always thought that the only difference was that Michael grew colder based on the life he was forced into.