S09.E12: Hell Bent

[Trepie]

I wish I could forget Clara, too.

[penguinnj]

 

I'm suddenly reminded of the time that Gallifrey nearly came back during the Tenth's doctor's last episode.  There was a woman who was hiding her face in her hands and then she looked up with a sad expression.  It was never explained who she was but I assumed she was the Doctor's mother.  I don't think this priestess is the same actress but since The Doctor's mother is a Time Lord she could also be his mother in her next regeneration

In 10's last episode the woman in the weeping angel pose who spoke to Wilf on the TV was the doctor's mother- according to the writer and producer Russell T Davies.  But since he didn't have time to flush it out in the episode he has since said you could interpret her in a number of different ways.  

IMO the woman in the barn and the woman we heard in Listen are supposed to be the same person.  Whether or not that is the doctor's mother or some kind of foster mother is up for debate.  We don't know what happened to the doctor's biological parents.  I say foster mother based on nothing more than his crying in the barn because he is afraid the other boys will see- he either has lots of siblings or it is a kind orphanage.  Both- as far as I know- are possible.

[WatchrTina]

I enjoyed this episode.  I don't want to think too hard about the "logic" of it or my head will surely explode but I said the same thing about "Mad Max:  Fury Road", which I also enjoyed very much.

 

Here are a few random thoughts.

 

If the doctor lived for billions of years trapped in the confessional, then is everyone on Gallifrey the same age as him?  I ask because I was struck by the idea of 2000-year old soldiers.  After 2000 years of life, wouldn't it be VERY difficult to surrender your judgement to someone else (like a commanding officer)?  So wouldn't 2000-year-old Time Lords make AWFUL soldiers?  Following that line of reasoning, billion-year-old people would be even WORSE soldiers.  Of course, they all just mutinied so maybe that's a symptom of exactly the I'm-too-old-to-be-taking-orders syndrome that I was wondering about.  But I'm going to stop wondering about it now because it makes my head hurt in the threatening way.

 

Did you hear Arya, I mean Ashildr say "Summer can't last forever"?  You know another way of saying that?  "Winter is coming."

 

"Reverse the polarity" made me laugh.  Was that really a shout-out to Star Trek or does Doctor Who use that bit of technobabble on a usual basis too?

 

"Clara who?"  When I first heard that I thought "Oh the Clara-haters will LOVE that."  But now I see that that line can be interpreted that as "Clara Who" and in light of her leaving in a Tardis with an immortal companion, heading to Gallifrey "the long way round" I'm afraid the second interpretation is also accurate.  Oh those poor wee Clara-haters.

 

Looking forward to the Christmas Special.  I was kicking myself for being spoiled about River coming back due to following the show on Twitter but now I see that remaining unspoiled on that point would be impossible.

Edited December 6, 2015 by WatchrTina

[ganesh]

"Reverse the polarity" made me laugh.  Was that really a shout-out to Star Trek or does Doctor Who use that bit of technobabble on a usual basis too?

 

"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flux" was used extensively in the classic era. I think Twelve said it before like, "I say that. I have no idea what it means." I think it was deliberate here. 

[Kelda Feegle]

Impossible.

Even though they don't press it to the 22 per year that an American production would, this is still too big a cash cow for the BBC for them to just abandon it just because Moffat might leave. They sell this show all around the world and won't easily give that up.

Moffatt is never going to let go of Who - he sees himself as the uberest uber fan that ever was - and I say this after just recently watching him in the flesh tell Peter Capaldi off for saying something about classic Who - his actual words to Capaldi? "You're trying to tell me something about Doctor Who?"

[Mabinogia]

We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her.

 

This is the reason I can't stand the most special little snowflake to ever flake. I kind of love the idea of the Doctor becoming so obsessed he basically stops being who he is. But why did it happen over Clara? I admit I only half watched during Matt Smith's run so I didn't catch ever nuance of Clara's arc. I vaguely know she split herself into a bunch of pieces and showed up all over his timeline for some reason but the show never really made me feel that this was why she was so special. I could understand if it was, but the show seemed to have forgotten about it. I would say Rose, Donna and Amy/Rory all did huge things, made great sacrifices on his behalf and yet he never went all scorched universe on their behalf. I suppose none of them technically died, but also none of them were stupid enough to commit suicide, which is basically what Clara did taking on someone else's death sentence.

 

For the Doctor to shoot someone, I just can't with that. If they are trying to show that being with Clara destroyed the Doctor, while I can see that he is a destroyed version of what he once was, I am just not seeing the storyline that it was Clara who did this to him, or why. Why was she so toxic for him? The idea is brilliant, for me, but the writing sucked balls. Such a terrible waste.

[beeble]

My DVR cut the final minute off. Argh! Can someone tell me what happens once Clara the waitress stands in from of the Elvis picture at the very near end? 

 

Not insisting that she return to her death scene seemed like a very un-Clara thing to do.

[Commando Cody]

We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her.

 

 

 

That took me a second. I thought by "he" you were talking about Moffat. I think Moffat is obsessed with the actress and he's projecting it through The Doctor. 

[Starchild]

Moffat frustrates me because he sets the scene, and has no intention of following through, never mind, lingering on many of the scenarios he offers up.

Moffat is a high-concept writer. He's a visionary. There's a reason that the one with the vision and those who execute are different people. Big idea folks usually aren't very good at the detailed work required to execute properly.

 

"Reverse the polarity" made me laugh.  Was that really a shout-out to Star Trek or does Doctor Who use that bit of technobabble on a usual basis too?

That was primarily a 3rd Doctor thing. Which is cool because, with the prickly attitude, the grey hair, and the velvet jacket Capaldi feels like a Pertwee throwback. The 3rd was my favourite.

[raspberry7]

Anybody besides me going to have a tough time not thinking of Maisie Williams as Lady Me instead of Arya Stark when GoT comes back?

When I first saw her in the promos for this season I thought I would have the opposite problem. Well done, Maisie.

I thought she did a great job, and showed an interesting evolution for the character. The scene in the ruins of Gallifrey was particularly good.

 

I agree with the thought that Moffat seems to be trying to make his companions More Special Than RTD's Companions (and Wife!) 

[tennisgurl]

I have a lot of mixed feeling about this finale, but right now, I am just so happy we got an Amy and Rory reference. Oh how I miss them...

[benteen]

I thought it was very good.  Props for this episode for calling out how toxic The Doctor and Clara's relationship really was.  So the end with the Doctor forgetting worked for me and I'm happy to move on from this era.

 

I thought the opening scenes on Gallifrey were excellent and then in fizzled. Always great to see Donald Sumpter (who was in serials for the Second and Third Doctor) but he was really over-the-top here.  The Time Lords have rarely been handled well on this show and Moffat has probably destroyed the Gallifrey storyline forever with his incompetence. 

 

Did it drag on too much?  Definitely.  A season of Doctor Who should be more than just the fate of a companion.

 

The Matrix Cloister was awesome though and I loved seeing a classic TARDIS.  Glad to get the Amy and Rory reference.  Good performances by Capaldi and Coleman.

[buttersister]

I think Moffat is obsessed with the actress and he's projecting it through The Doctor.

Remembering Davis' obsession with Billie Piper/Rose. Boys. No. Enough with the special snowflakes/best companion ever/love of Doctor's life. He married River.

 

I shudder to think what this two-parter would have been without Peter. Otoh, maybe that wouldn't have been a problem for me because the answer is unwatchable.

[Anisky]

If the Doctor is going to regenerate as a woman, I don't want it to be while Moffat is the showrunner. I'm pretty sure he would make an absolute mess of it. When/if the Doctor is a woman, it's going to be fraught with difficulties. Some viewers of Doctor Who (the Gamer Gate-type viewers) are going to be very suspicious or even hostile towards the idea of a female Doctor, and unfortunately, that type tends to make a whole lot of noise online. If a female Doctor is badly written, that will add more fuel to their fire, and might even get other people agreeing with them that "a female Doctor doesn't work" or whatnot. On the other side of it, female viewers could be turned off to the show if the the female Doctor is written/portrayed in-- well, it's a bit much to get into, but there are a whole lot of ways a writer who doesn't know what he/she is doing could end up being pretty offensive, or just plain not believable. 

 

When/if the Doctor regenerates as a woman, I would want the showrunner to either be a woman, or have a proven track record of writing and portraying female characters very well; otherwise I fear Doctor Who would end up in the middle of a very unpleasant sh*tstorm. Moffat has a track record of not writing female characters very well. It's a recipe for disaster.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Anisky

[Kromm]

That took me a second. I thought by "he" you were talking about Moffat. I think Moffat is obsessed with the actress and he's projecting it through The Doctor. 

You know people made the very same accusation/observation with Mr. Moffat's predecessor and Billie Piper.

[Cthulhudrew]

Not yet sure how it ties into "destroying a billion hearts and stand in the ruins of Gallifrey"... maybe that's a clue that this storyline is NOT done, that Clara has NOT made a clean and utterly final irrevocable exit, that her avoiding the fixed point in time issue ends up making another crack in time or something.

That's the problem with prophecies; they never tell you anything useful because they're just too cryptic and open to many interpretations.

 

For instance, if we buy the Doctor/Clara hybrid theory, then "destroying a billion hearts" could refer to all the clones of the Doctor that died in the trap the TIme Lords put him in last episode, and I think he was standing in the ruins of Gallifrey when he was talking to Ashildr at the end of time (he said they hadn't moved through space, but time, IIRC). 

[Llywela]

I thought the woman was the one that helped Eight regen into the War Doctor? She came into the room and Rassilon was like, "what are you people doing here?"

Different woman. The one randomly hanging out with Rassilon was Ohila/Ohica (whatever) from the Sisterhood of Karn, yes. The one who was never introduced or explained was the one running in and out of the barn talking to the Doctor.

IMO the woman in the barn and the woman we heard in Listen are supposed to be the same person.  Whether or not that is the doctor's mother or some kind of foster mother is up for debate.  We don't know what happened to the doctor's biological parents.  I say foster mother based on nothing more than his crying in the barn because he is afraid the other boys will see- he either has lots of siblings or it is a kind orphanage.  Both- as far as I know- are possible.

I'm guessing a kind of house mother for boys at Time Lord Academy.

 

But Doctor Who was a much stronger show when we didn't have a show runner desperate to explain - or attempt to explain - every mystery of the lead character's past. All he's done is make the Doctor Who universe feel smaller.

 

If the doctor lived for billions of years trapped in the confessional, then is everyone on Gallifrey the same age as him?  I ask because I was struck by the idea of 2000-year old soldiers.  After 2000 years of life, wouldn't it be VERY difficult to surrender your judgement to someone else (like a commanding officer)?  So wouldn't 2000-year-old Time Lords make AWFUL soldiers?  Following that line of reasoning, billion-year-old people would be even WORSE soldiers.  Of course, they all just mutinied so maybe that's a symptom of exactly the I'm-too-old-to-be-taking-orders syndrome that I was wondering about.  But I'm going to stop wondering about it now because it makes my head hurt in the threatening way.

It's Gallifrey. Any Time Lord you encounter on Gallifrey is going to be hundreds of years old, at the very least, if not millennia. And usually the Doctor's personal time stream remains in sync with Gallifrey. But you're right, we were never told whether or not the same amount of time had passed for Gallifrey as for the Doctor.

 

I remain unconvinced that the Doctor truly experienced four and a half billion years anyway. That's just a number pulled out of a hat to deepen the pathos, but it's typical over-the-top nonsense. Within the internal logic of the story he should only remember a couple of days of that, since that's all this copy experienced. And since he was within a virtual reality anyway, it probably took no longer than the journey to Gallifrey, in reality. The stars he was seeing inside the confession dial weren't real stars - it was a simulation.

 

 

"Reverse the polarity" made me laugh.  Was that really a shout-out to Star Trek or does Doctor Who use that bit of technobabble on a usual basis too?

 

"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flux" was used extensively in the classic era. I think Twelve said it before like, "I say that. I have no idea what it means." I think it was deliberate here. 

It was "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow", in fact - the Third Doctor's most iconic line, although despite popular belief he never actually said the whole thing more than once or twice. But some variation on that phrase was Jon Pertwee's default whenever he couldn't be bothered learning the actual technobabble! So yes, very much a classic Doctor Who line, not Star Trek. It's been referenced by New Who on numerous occasions.

 

Moffatt is never going to let go of Who - he sees himself as the uberest uber fan that ever was - and I say this after just recently watching him in the flesh tell Peter Capaldi off for saying something about classic Who - his actual words to Capaldi? "You're trying to tell me something about Doctor Who?"

The trouble is that Moffat's brand of fandom is the kind that defines its fandom by memorising minute trivia, rather than understanding the actual world and the people populating it. He has no understanding of or sympathy with the characters of the classic show whatsoever - he frequently sounds disdainful when referencing them. I've hung out with his type at Doctor Who quizzes and on Gallifrey Base forum. Not my brand of fandom at all. I'm more interested in characters than trivia. This is why I don't get on with Moffat's version of Doctor Who.

 

We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her.

 

This is the reason I can't stand the most special little snowflake to ever flake. I kind of love the idea of the Doctor becoming so obsessed he basically stops being who he is. But why did it happen over Clara? I admit I only half watched during Matt Smith's run so I didn't catch ever nuance of Clara's arc. I vaguely know she split herself into a bunch of pieces and showed up all over his timeline for some reason but the show never really made me feel that this was why she was so special. I could understand if it was, but the show seemed to have forgotten about it. I would say Rose, Donna and Amy/Rory all did huge things, made great sacrifices on his behalf and yet he never went all scorched universe on their behalf. I suppose none of them technically died, but also none of them were stupid enough to commit suicide, which is basically what Clara did taking on someone else's death sentence.

 

For the Doctor to shoot someone, I just can't with that. If they are trying to show that being with Clara destroyed the Doctor, while I can see that he is a destroyed version of what he once was, I am just not seeing the storyline that it was Clara who did this to him, or why. Why was she so toxic for him? The idea is brilliant, for me, but the writing sucked balls. Such a terrible waste.

Exactly. Almost every companion the Doctor has ever had has done incredible things in their time - many of them saved his life, some repeatedly. Katarina sacrificed her life to save his. Why was he so obsessed with Clara? No actual reason has ever been given. He just is because the story demanded it - and I fail to see why anyone would want to tell such a toxic story to begin with. Because it's trendy to fill the telly with unhealthy character dynamics? But that isn't Doctor Who.

 

I long for something different. But we'll never get it while Moffat is at the helm.

[Cthulhudrew]

• I’m still struggling with the idea that The Mire medical kit can create immortality.  Really?  So Moffat decides the season long plot needs an immortal as the Hybrid red herring (or maybe the actual Hybrid?  Are we sure we know yet?) and with one of the most ridiculous handwavey actions in the whole 50+ years of Dr. Who suddenly we have immortal Lady Me. 

This.

 

While I liked this episode overall, I still don't get the whole Ashildr/Me thing. The concept that all that had to happen to make an immortal was sticking that medical kit on Ashildr (and some sonic glasses wankery); the fact that- to my observing- Ashildr/Me seems to have a different personality and motivation each episode, as the plot dictates, without actually seeming to have any "reality" of her own; and what purpose was served by having her in this episode in particular.

 

I still haven't gone back and watched the "Clara Dies" episode since falling asleep halfway through it the first time; did they ever mention what happened with the other Immortal from the Mire medkit? That highway robber/comedian guy? Why wasn't he also sitting in a chair at the end of time watching the stars fade?

[Anisky]

So, hot off our correct prediction about "It's me" actually being "It's Me" at the end of last episode...

 

Anyone wonder if the Dalek saying "Exterminate me" is actually saying "Exterminate Me"?

Edited December 7, 2015 by Anisky

[TheGourmez]

I never got the impression that 12 thinks Clara is the most special of all snowflakes. He doesn't obsess over her because he thinks that she is. He obsesses over her because they bring out the worst in each other, amplify their most negative qualities because of how similar they are. And that includes amplifying the Doctor's desire to save people, making him break his own rules of being preferential over who to save, which drives him to value his companion's life over other people's. It's not obsessing over her, really. It's that he'd begun to believe it was okay for him to break his own rules. Not that he would only break those rules for her but that being with her brought him to a point where he would break them. I really dig that arc. And Clara's decision to use her wiggle room also shows how much she's become like the Doctor's worst parts too, because using the wiggle room is never a good idea. The fact that she's dead in the first place showed that already.

 

I think Gallifrey was underused, but I otherwise enjoyed the episode a lot. And I loved the sly line from Me about the summer ending.

Edited December 7, 2015 by TheGourmez

[darkestboy]

It had its moments but it also lacked something.

 

I don't mind the idea of Clara/Ashildr having their own TARDIS but it did seem to cheat the former's fate a little though.

 

There were great moments with Twelve/Clara in the episode and I liked the subversion of Donna's fate here too.

 

Gallifrey amounted to very little in the episode. Ohila seemed tacked on and Rassilon too easy defeated also.

 

Sliders seemed cool but barely used. I do like the new sonic though.

 

Christmas also looks fun, 8/10

[tankgirl73]

So how exactly does heartbeat-less Clara WORK, anyway?

 

I can understand the idea of this 'shade' of a person being extracted the moment before death, having a brief conversation, then being returned.

 

I can understand the idea that this 'shade' of a person, removed in time from the chamber, 'reboots' and their heart starts beating again.

 

But this didn't happen to Clara. The Doctor supposed that it would, but in reality it didn't. So if she continues to wander the universe teetering a moment from death -- cool idea bro. But what happens when she gets a cut? Does she bleed? When she gets excited, will her face flush? Can she get sick, does her immune system work?

 

He said that even her breathing is only a habit, so presumably she doesn't have to breathe. (Oh, hey, nice callback to Deep Breath there.)  She is, effectively, undead.

 

Is her body in some sort of suspended state... except for her brain, obviously... or will it start to deteriorate? Her cells can't be repairing themselves.

[Pattycake2]

So, Gallifrey somehow escaped being frozen in its pocket universe and is hiding at the end of the universe 4 1/2 billion years in the future.  Okay, maybe when Missy gave the Doctor the coordinates for Gallifrey and he travelled there and it was empty, Gallifrey was really there only billions of years in the future?  It had to have been frozen for a good long time, because we saw 11 age and die over a period of 900 years.  Rasillon and the soldiers and others would have had to have regenerated past their twelve lives if they had been sitting around the end of the universe for any long period of time.

 

I know people like Maisie Williams from her other work which I've never seen. All I see is a baby-faced snot who barely seems to grow or learn as time passes. There is no way she had been around for 4 1/2 billion years.  She would have been Something.  At least Something other than a slightly more sophisticated snot with a different hair style.

 

Up to the last two episodes, I hadn't been hating on Clara much this season.  She loved him and enjoyed her travels with him unlike last season.  DON'T mention Danny Pink.  Shudders.  That was god-awful.   No to Clara and Me travelling together in a Tardis for goodness sake!  Absolute rubbish.   

 

Please don't anyone wish more Moffat on Sherlock.  Turning Sherlock and Watson into psychologically broken men, a ninja assassin wife, rosebud/red and making Mycroft into a god like character makes my blood boil. 

[Kromm]

Please don't anyone wish more Moffat on Sherlock.  Turning Sherlock and Watson into psychologically broken men, a ninja assassin wife, rosebud/red and making Mycroft into a god like character makes my blood boil. 

Arguably Mr. Holmes and his gang got it in the posterior even harder with Elementary. Where the crappy writers insist that Watson has to give up a lucrative career to be inserted into this story. Where Moriarity and Irene Adler don't even get their own existences, but have to be mashed up into a whole that's lesser and lamer than either character. Where poor Lestrade only gets a minor mention and a few episodes, and he's a vile nutjob. And Mycroft, if not a godlike character, is instead kind of a waste of space. Oh, and the addition of a Holmes Senior, who's existence and relationship with Sherlock totally invalidates the idea of Holmes as actually being successful, because now his existence is predicated on Daddy having paved the way for him financially. 

 

Actually Holmes is arguably what's been left alone most in both versions. I mean original book Holmes WAS arguably still a drug addict, mind you, and a bit of a son of a bitch, and I can even see parts of the stories that suggest he could be some sort of savant, and kind of Asperger-y in relation to that. So the rude social misfits both Moffat and Rob Doherty of Elementary make him into is just exaggerating--because isn't that what modern TV does? 

[benteen]

This episode "redeemed" the 12/Clara relationship by firmly establishing that they brought out the worst in each other.  I like the idea of the Doctor forgetting her because I will consider this a two-year "bender" for the Doctor following 900 years on Trenzalore.

 

Agreed that I wouldn't want Moffat writing a female Doctor because the characterization would be so broad that it would be farcical. 

 

He did one thing right with the Time Lords in this episode...whenever a Time Lord would get killed when the Fourth Doctor visited during the Classic era, they would never regenerate.  Despite the fact they could regenerate.  The General gets killed in this episode, he actually regenerates.

 

Like I said, I thought the early Gallifrey scenes were excellent.  Once 12 started focusing on his toxic relationship with Clara, the story started to fall apart.

[Llywela]

He did one thing right with the Time Lords in this episode...whenever a Time Lord would get killed when the Fourth Doctor visited during the Classic era, they would never regenerate.  Despite the fact they could regenerate.  The General gets killed in this episode, he actually regenerates.

I always took that to mean that Time Lord guns, designed for use against other Time Lords, inhibit regeneration. Because when shooting to kill, you'd want it to stick.

 

Except that it never made a great deal of sense that they'd have weapons to use against other Time Lords in the first place, in those days, since they were meant to be such a stuffy, hidebound people who never went anywhere, living on a dusty old planet where nothing ever happened.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Was Doctor Who Less Than Some Of Its Parts?
Just because Season 9 sometimes seemed like the old-school serial, we wouldn't advise pouring milk on it.

[benteen]

I wish I could forget Clara, too.

 

Remember, Clara is just a bad dream.  The result of a two-year bender the Doctor went through after spending 900 years on Trenzalore.

Edited December 7, 2015 by benteen

[Ringthane]

I always took that to mean that Time Lord guns, designed for use against other Time Lords, inhibit regeneration. Because when shooting to kill, you'd want it to stick.

 

Except that it never made a great deal of sense that they'd have weapons to use against other Time Lords in the first place, in those days, since they were meant to be such a stuffy, hidebound people who never went anywhere, living on a dusty old planet where nothing ever happened.

 

But they have a stun setting.  Maxil shot Five in "Arc of Infinity", but it was just on stun.  Surely Twelve could have just stunned the guy instead of killing him. 

[Llywela]

But they have a stun setting.  Maxil shot Five in "Arc of Infinity", but it was just on stun.  Surely Twelve could have just stunned the guy instead of killing him. 

You'd like to think so, right? I think he did ask about a stun setting - or someone mentioned that there was no stun setting on that type of gun. The whole thing was  completely out of character, unnecessary just a set up to a) drum home the point about how much the Doctor supposedly cares for Clara (still not buying it), and b) facilitate the male-female regeneration, which someone just really, really wanted to shoehorn in just to make a point, rather than because the story needed it in any way.

 

The Castellan (I think it was the Castellan - I get all their titles confused!) was shot dead in The Five Doctors - no regeneration, that time, just one shot and gone. It seemed pretty instantaneous, as well, rather than taking a few days to die (Moffat this season keeps making up more and more Time Lord lore that contradicts what's been seen previously). All of which just goes to show that even before the Time War, the Time Lords had a surprising amount of different types of weapon for a stuffy, hidebound race who supposedly never did anything or went anywhere! Maybe crime and invasion rates on Gallifrey have always been higher than the Doctor liked to admit!

Edited December 7, 2015 by Llywela

[penguinnj]

 

He did one thing right with the Time Lords in this episode...whenever a Time Lord would get killed when the Fourth Doctor visited during the Classic era, they would never regenerate.  Despite the fact they could regenerate.  The General gets killed in this episode, he actually regenerates.

ha-ha.  I've just been watching The Invasion of Time and I've been sitting here stupidly wondering why the guards don't regenerate.  Yet they talk about regeneration through a decent chunk of the episode.  

 

Remember, Clara is just a bad dream not.  The result of a two-year bender the Doctor went through after spending 900 years on Trenzalore.

I adore this interpretation- we've all hooked up during benders with people who were terribly bad for us, right?  No- just me?  OK I'll get me coat :)

Seriously I LOVE the idea that the entire Clara phenomena was the result of Missy finding the worst person (or puppy) in the world for the doctor- not a bad person per se but bad for the doctor.  She is what happen when not only is the Time Lord Victorious not stopped but actively indulged and encouraged-  you can absolutely save everyone doctor- to hell with the rules.  No steadying influence- no one to stop him when he gets emotional.    In fact the most memorable times when Clara calls him out on his actions it's to scold him that he isn't doing more, saving more people or species or whatever.  I liked his line that he is not, in fact, the intergalactic police.

I also wanted to chime in that I did in fact end up loving Maisie Williams/Me this season.  I thought her conversation with the doctor at the end of time was marvelous.- loved the way she said "Brilliantly."  I know there are some who disagree, but I think she was Moffat's best executed idea of the season.   Without her and Capaldi's stellar performance this entire season falls apart.  Not sure how much of that had to do with Coleman decision to stay at the last minute, but tempo wise it was a mess.

Edited December 7, 2015 by penguinnj

[HouseofBeck]

I'm not sure yet what i think about this episode but i do think it had some interesting ideas in it.

First, i took the notion of the Doctor and Clara as being the hybrid to be precisely a statement that she wasn't the greatest companion of all time. That was Ashildr's point about it being Missy who set them up. Clara was always a trap for the Doctor (perhaps because he was so intrigued after Ostwin) and Missy almost succeeded in turning the Doctor into another Master. In some ways Ashildr saved him which gives a new meaning to her promise to make sure she would clean up his messes when he left (and that leaving was a major theme of the season).

Second, although i too was thrown by the use of the gun, the Doctor did make sure he knew how many regenerations the General had left before he shot him. He wasn't killing him but forcing him to become a distraction by regenerating. Had he killed the guy after Jenny he would have stayed dead. And as to why the Doctor saved kept the general and not the Council the general had blocked Rassilon when he was trying to kill the Doctor by eliminating all of his regenerations (that question about how many regenerations the Doctor had was the linked opposite to the Doctor's question to the general since Rassilon meant to be sure he eliminated all of them).

Did anyone else think, when they came across the Dalek saying "exterminate me" that that might be Missy? It seemed like a throwback to when Missy trapped Clara in a dalek and also wasn't Missy's final scene in that episode an effort to convince the daleks that she knew how to help them against the Time Lords? Breaking into the matrix would do that.

I do like the concept that Missy was behind much of this; from the old days, that character has been having such a grand time being evil mostly for the hell of it (and, of course, meglomania and ruling the universe). Hell, I even like the notion that it was her, or possibly a Clara, saying Save Me on the inside of that Dalek that I still feel sorry for, arrgh.

I can't yet reconcile that shooting of the General despite the regen question. The principle still gets me. "My" Doctor never would (though he was never above putting someone out of commission for awhile). But I've long been thinking this isn't really my Who anymore either, though my love for it overall is so strong I keep coming back. :)

Edited December 7, 2015 by HouseofBeck

[shandy]

Unfortunately since I started watching earlier iterations of Doctor Who, my respect for the RTD and Moffat eras has dwindled. I'm not convinced that any show really benefits from being in the hands of a super enthusiast -  perhaps Moffat has more tricks than Brannon Braga, but I get the same sense of otaku ego driving the franchise over a cliff that Voyager and Enterprise had. 

 

On one level  there was a great piece of TV, Talalay's cinematic vision shows what a talent she is, the score was subtle for once, the acting a showcase. Yet at heart this was telling the tedious tale of doomed love yet again, with the pacing of a glacier and a few timey wifey sci-fi twists. Unlike Lennon and McCartney, where the rivalry achieved something amazing, Moffat trying to outdo and erase RTD just gets toxic.

 

If Moffat had just let Clara choke on that feather two episodes ago what a two parter we could have had - Capaldi could have been amazing leading a coup against the High Council. Moffat's teasing with titbits - Ohila calling the doctor 'boy', the woman in the barn recognizing him, it's just become tawdry - his games are like cheap burlesque.

[WatchrTina]

 

did they ever mention what happened with the other Immortal from the Mire medkit? That highway robber/comedian guy? Why wasn't he also sitting in a chair at the end of time watching the stars fade?

Really good question.  The other really good question is if that thingamajig from the Mire med kit creates an immortal whenever it is used then why aren't there a LOT of Mires hanging out together at the end of time?  How is it that Ashlar/Me is the only person gifted with that technology to stay the distance?  They said in her first episode that she could die -- the whatsit only cures disease and heal-able injuries.  If she'd been decapitated (a la the TV show Highlander) or hanged or had not trained herself to hold her breath a really long time that time she was drowned as a witch, she'd have died.  What makes her so special that none of those things ever happened to her in 4.5 billion years but everyone else who used that technology (including, apparently, the robber dude) all croaked eventually?  I am not a fan of the Ashildr story-line.  It seems to serve no purpose.

Edited December 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Starchild]

Ashildr/Me seems to have a different personality and motivation each episode, as the plot dictates, without actually seeming to have any "reality" of her own; and what purpose was served by having her in this episode in particular.

Her only purpose was to allow all the "clever" word games:

"The hybrid is Me."

"Who's knocking?" ... "Me."

 

That's the sum total of her purpose.

[Sunnydayman]

What am I watching? Rassilon can't be discarded so easily. If Gallifrey still exists why no other renegades? For a race this New Who insists on characterizing as evil they sure tow the line. The story was convoluted. Just let Clara die.

[Darth Nigel]

High spot of this one for me was the conversation between Me and The Doctor in the ruins of Gallifrey.  There's real acting chemistry between those two, and I'd love to see more of it.

 

Other high spot (perhaps) was finally seeing the last of Clara (except one presumes occasional "very special episodes" and Red Nose shorts).  And I loved the old-style Tardis.

 

But BBC America (Comcast Pierce County) screwed up the audio mix like they did all season -- for much of the early scenes, we had 

"dialog dialog dia"MUSIC SWELLS"dialo"MUSIC REACHES A PEAK"alog dialog"MUSIC RUMBLES INTO OBSCURITY...   followed by me or  my wife asking, "did you get any of that?".    The audio mix is OK on the Amazon episodes that are for sale, so I have to decide if the missing dialog and plottery is worth $5.99 or whatever it is.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Darth Nigel

[Kromm]

High spot of this one for me was the conversation between Me and The Doctor in the ruins of Gallifrey.  There's real acting chemistry between those two, and I'd love to see more of it.

 

Other high spot (perhaps) was finally seeing the last of Clara (except one presumes occasional "very special episodes" and Red Nose shorts).  And I loved the old-style Tardis.

 

But BBC America (Comcast Pierce County) screwed up the audio mix like they did all season -- for much of the early scenes, we had 

"dialog dialog dia"MUSIC SWELLS"dialo"MUSIC REACHES A PEAK"alog dialog"MUSIC RUMBLES INTO OBSCURITY...   followed by me or  my wife asking, "did you get any of that?".    The audio mix is OK on the Amazon episodes that are for sale, so I have to decide if the missing dialog and plottery is worth $5.99 or whatever it is.

I'm confused. Why would the audio be remixed?  

 

Heck, I don't even think the video is altered anymore the way it was back in the NTSC vs. PAL days (when each country had different video resolutions).

[SoothingDave]

I still haven't gone back and watched the "Clara Dies" episode since falling asleep halfway through it the first time; did they ever mention what happened with the other Immortal from the Mire medkit? That highway robber/comedian guy? Why wasn't he also sitting in a chair at the end of time watching the stars fade?

 

It was explained in that previous episode.  Something like since he was being super-killed by the bad aliens in the sky, that instead of getting immortality, he just got to be not dead.  

 

 

Is there some reason that the guy with the time machine can't just go back and visit with Clara back before she died?

Edited December 8, 2015 by SoothingDave

[Llywela]

It was explained in that previous episode.  Something like since he was being super-killed by the bad aliens in the sky, that instead of getting immortality, he just got to be un-dead.  

Is there some reason that the guy with the time machine can't just go back and visit with Clara back before she died?

The Doctor wasn't entirely sure either way, though, so it was left a bit open-ended - but we can only presume that he wasn't made immortal, since he doesn't seem to still be around.

[BizBuzz]

Finally saw this ... and I tried to do a search but came out empty handed so I will just ask ... wasn't that the same diner as the one with Rory/Amy and 11?

 

Again, if this has been alluded to before, i missed it.

[Llywela]

Finally saw this ... and I tried to do a search but came out empty handed so I will just ask ... wasn't that the same diner as the one with Rory/Amy and 11?

 

Again, if this has been alluded to before, i missed it.

It was, yes. The Doctor mentions it at one point - he gets confused and thinks he visited it with Clara, then remembers it was with Amy and Rory. Filmed at Eddie's Diner in Cardiff Bay. I think the re-use of the same location was purely so he could realise it's in the wrong place, as a clue that all is not as it seems. There seems no other purpose for the location.

[BizBuzz]

There seems no other purpose for the location.

 

First thanks for validating ... I am going to have to rewatch, because although I did go nuts when 12 mentioned Rory and Amy, I didn't get that he knew where he was.

 

I don't know but the whole last part of this season seemed like there were many call backs to old and new Who ... my daughter and I were constantly going, hey, this reminds me of such and such, or lookie there, that is the same thing as in that episode in season 4, etc.

 

I like stuff like that.  It makes me feel like my viewership is appreciated.

 

As far as the episode ... while I enjoyed parts of it immensely ... other parts were on the verge of feeling anticlimactic.  It says something when I get more of a kick seeing River in the "Next Time" than the episode itself.

[Beatriceblake]

I found this episode very disappointing. It felt like the previous episode could have led into several compelling storylines. We had the hybrid mystery, the return of Gallifrey, the threat posed by Me/Ashildr and a fourth story about the Doctor possibly going too far in the midst of his grief for Clara. Then this episode didn't deal with any of that; it just rehashed resolved storylines. We know the Doctor cares about Clara. We know Clara and the Doctor are bad for one another.

 

Clara had already had a good send-off. She died trying to help someone and because she'd become too reckless. Having her turn up again undercut that. It also spoiled the wonderful "Heaven Sent" since the Doctor wasn't honouring her memory that whole time, he was planning to risk all time and space to bring her back.

 

Also Missy bringing Clara and the Doctor together to create chaos seems a bit goofy. How did Missy work out that the meek version of Clara we met originally with 11 would be bad for the Doctor?

 

Another big problem was the way Gallifrey was dealt with in this episode. The Timelords are just another bunch of aliens that are five or six steps behind the Doctor. Gallifrey can be a bad or a flawed place but surely the whole point of bringing it back is so the Doctor is among equals or superiors when it comes to power and smarts.

 

The only good thing is that Peter Capaldi was excellent in the episode. Jenna Coleman was good too (I think she's a good actress who had to play a dud character) but my enjoyment of her was tempered by the fact I hate death reversals and resurrections. It kills any sense of stakes and peril.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Beatriceblake

[Rhetorica]

Was the barn also where the War Doctor went to encounter the Moment?

[Starchild]

I think folks missed my earlier question so I will repeat and hope one of you knows the answer:

 

He said something after drawing that line in the sand while facing down the hovering ship, but I missed it. Does anyone remember what he said?

[Commando Cody]

In response to people asking where do we go from here with the next companion. I will settle for "likable". 

[hnygrl]

Another thing that bothers the hell out of me about this finale: There is the fact that saving Clara effed up the entirety of reality. The whole of reality is dying because Clara's not dead, and as long as she's alive, the universe/all of reality is in chaos. Planets, people, all those people, beings, etc. in all of time and space (Gallifrey included) are dying because she's not dead. Hers is a fixed point in time.

DID THEY FORGET THIS???? Is Moffat gonna pull a MOFFAT and just IGNORE that Clara's death was a FIXED POINT and she needs to her her special little butt back to knocturn alley and DIE already?

 

That long way round thing pisses me off because hello? FIXED POINT IN TIME????

DAMN YOU MOFFAT!!! I HATE IT when he does that!!!!

[DoctorHow]

I'm fairly new to the show (about three years) and even newer to this forum. (Today.)

 

I've seen all of New Who so far, though.

 

Hell Bent to me, was like vomiting; nobody ever wants to do it, and the lead up to it is in some ways even worse, but once it's done, it done, and you feel better.

 

I didn't get into Clara at all, so I am not sad to see her go. (Any of the 15 times it seemed like she was going.) She always felt to me like someone who was keeping a seat warm between Amy and the next "real" companion, even though she was on longer than Amy. My true dislike for her started when she jumped into the time stream, and basically became the most important being in the history of the Doctor, and hence the show. (That particular TARDIS the First Doctor stole was HER idea? Really?)

 

So, in one sense, I don't care how the character is gone, so long as she's gone. Never understood the appeal, so I'm happy to have it over and done with, even in an episode that was, to me, not great.

 

Which means I don't understand why, at the end of this season the Doctor was made insane by her presence/absence. It was to me, like, okay, nobody has ever meant more to the Doctor in all his centuries than this woman...if you say so, writers...because the on-screen chemistry and the behavior of the characters didn't show that to me.

 

As for the other non-Clara stuff that bothered me about the episode...

 

-THAT was the Doctor's return to Galifrey? A decade in the reboot with the home plamet being only mentioned, or seen in passing and such, and when the Doctor is at last back on it's soil what do we get? A five minute coup. The 50th Anniversary established that his purpose was to be headed home "the long way round," which was ignored for most of the Capaldi era. It finally happens, and we get the Doctor having a bowl of soup, and blowing an unarmed ally into their 11th regeneration for virtually no reason. (Other than to shock viewers.)

 

-Also with Galifrey...the great moment of 13 Doctors and their TARDIS's converging on the planet in the 50th in the nick of time to send the planet away into a pocket universe...kind of the entire climax of the 50th. And when the subject of the planet being in the regular universe again is brought up, we get, "I guess they got out somehow."

 

-The extraction thing...there is nobody else anywhere in all of his travels he would choose to save while he was there? That's how much Clara eclipses everybody else?

 

-Another useless "Villains Greatest Hits" number like we had in Trenzalore for about five seconds...

 

-"Me" at the end of the whole universe watching even "the other immortals die." That very contradiction just bothered me to no end. What about that goofy guy she gave the other "disk" thing to? The one that was scheduled to be hanged earlier this year? A human with the exact same treatment as her, and yet, never mind, "Me" is the only living thing left in the universe.

 

-The (as far as I can tell) pointless call back to the diner from the Impossible Astronaut. Was it just for the "coolness" of Capaldi saying "Amy and Rory"?

 

There was more foolery yet, if I could remember it.

 

In the end, I'm in the anti-Moffet camp. He seems constitutionally incapable of writing a straight up adventure anymore. Every episode just about is part of an arc that wraps around the very mythology of everything there is about the Doctor. He mad his character rewrite the show's whole history, and the same character comforted a child-Doctor up in the loft, even giving him a little toy figure. I thought for sure before it was all said and done that we would find out Clara is in fact his mother...or better yet, is somehow in fact the planet Gallifrey made into a person. Or is the TARDIS...or all of the above. I wouldn't be surprised if any of that happened. 

 

Frankly what I most fear is that Coleman will in fact be a future regeneration of the Doctor...since we know that "important" faces can influence a regeneration, ala Capaldi from "Pompeii." 

 

I started watching the show for weird adventures and chasing bad guys, or saving planets that can't save themselves. Each year there seems to be less and less of that, and more and more "huge revelations" that in the end go no where.

 

At least half of the posters here seem to think in similar manner to this. I am glad, because most of the places I go to see reviews of the reason season consider it all so very brilliant.

 

Oh well. Can't wait to see 12 as just 12, without Clara. I think Stormeggedon as originally seen would make a more interesting companion than she was.

[tv-talk]

but my enjoyment of her was tempered by the fact I hate death reversals and resurrections. It kills any sense of stakes and peril.

 

 

This! Exactly what bothers me most about current Who is that it tries to be so grand and emotionally compelling but then nothing that ever happens actually matters. Clara dies and we dont get even ONE episode where she isnt present. Apparently the only person who can die is Danny Pink?

 

The show seems to strive so hard for a sense of great loss and regret and CONSTANTLY pushes the theme that the Doctor's loss and regret is so much greater than any human can comprehend due to his immortal and timeless nature...yet really there is no loss and he regrets nothing. It's just terrible writing. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by tv-talk