S05.E08: Birth

[Daisy]

How does it not? If you turn someone against their free will and against their dying wish into the Dark One villain, that certainly doesn't make you light.

 

but she's saving his life though. like.. that should have counted for something kinda.

(and it really possibility be more of I still don't get how Merlin was dark by being tethered so how that would have made Hook dark). 

[Writing Wrongs]

Aw, Emma and Hook share Dark Oneness like Snow and Charming share a heart. Ain't it romantic?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Aw, Emma and Hook share Dark Oneness like Snow and Charming share a heart. Ain't it romantic?

Maybe to the Addams family.

[Curio]

Hook should have gotten more "epic" circumstances surrounding his death. Getting nicked with the sword was a little random.

 

I think that was a direct callback to the line Arthur said earlier in the episode right before he was about to kill Hook with his sword in Storybrooke (hey, foreshadowing!): "It's always the simple mistakes that get us killed." It's no coincidence that Hook just happened to die from a simple cut on the neck after dodging Arthur's sword.

 

Aw, Emma and Hook share Dark Oneness like Snow and Charming share a heart. Ain't it romantic?

 

At least they they don't have to share a love child with Zelena...

Edited November 16, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

At least they they don't have to share a love child with Zelena...

No, they don't, but you know she'd let them babysit.

[Delphi]

Maybe to the Addams family.

Uh, Gomez and Morticia are totally healthy and romantic compared to half the crap this show does. Just saying.

[kili]

Hook should have gotten more "epic" circumstances surrounding his death. Getting nicked with the sword was a little random.

 

In a way, Hook died the same way his brother did. Liam scratched his own arm with a thorn and Hook got scratched on his neck. Both were fatal due to the nature of the scratching device, Both were easily healed by magic, but the healing was an illusion. Liam's healing only lasted until he left Neverland and Hook's only lasted a little while (or until somebody forged the sword or Calvinball rules required it). Both died in their loved one's arms and both triggered a dark changed in their loved one (Hook became a pirate and Emma became the Dark One). The only difference is that Liam actually did die while Hook had his agency taken from him and was turned into what he hated the most.

 

I wonder if there is something in that parallelism we are supposed to get?

[RadioGirl27]

The more I think about it, the more I hate the final twist. The episode was so good, the best of the season by far, and then they had to go there and make Hook the DO. Not only that, they had to make him the DO, the thing he hates the most, not by choice, but by force. I fear what they are going to do with him now. I don't trust this writers and I don't think they are going to do justice to the character and his redemption arc.

[lorbeer]

Could someone explain me what happenned? Do we have TWO Dark Ones now? Or only Hook is the Dark One? Anyone?

[Rumsy4]

We have two Dark Ones, but I'm not sure why Hook got turned into a Dark One. Emma said she was going to use the Promethean flame to untether Merlin from Excalibur and tether Hook to it so he doesn't die. I still don't get why that turned him into a Dark One.

[chrisvee]

Bringing this non-spoilery bits over from the spoiler thread:

Except, well, that makes Hook a hypocrite if he doesn't forgive Emma.

Last season Hook harped on Emma for not forgiving her parents for sticking all Emma's darkness in Lily. He's the one that told Emma she should forgive her parents because they did what they did to her and Lily because they were motivated by love and their fear for her and were just thinking of protecting her, and so, Emma forgave her parents with Hook's encouragement. This situation isn't very different.

Except the darkness they put in Lily was of an entirely different magnitude and impact. And Hook is her lover not her parent.

ETA: Calvinball Rules lol! Is that why Merlin didn't got Dark One? Or because Zelena used a different tethering method than Emma?

Edited November 16, 2015 by chrisvee

[RadioGirl27]

We have two Dark Ones, but I'm not sure why Hook got turned into a Dark One. Emma said she was going to use the Promethean flame to untether Merlin from Excalibur and tether Hook to it so he doesn't die. I still don't get why that turned him into a Dark One.

Because the writers were looking for an excuse to introduce Dark Hook and they thought this would be a cool twist. I don't think they had thought anything else beyond that.

[Sarcastica]

Dark Captain Swan. I still can't believe this. This was an episode that I will actually watch again. 

I still don't care for Zelena, but my god her snark gives me life. 

[Rosiejuliemom]

Uh, Gomez and Morticia are totally healthy and romantic compared to half the crap this show does. Just saying.

 

Gomez and Morticia are quite possibly the healthiest and most romantic relationship on television. Period.

 

I imagine that Dr. Whale is going to invest in some padded walls for the maternity ward.

 

Where the hell is Grumpy in Camelot? We've seen Granny and Doc, but I don't recall seeing Grumpy since the ball. Is he hanging out with Lancelot in Offscreenville?

[HoodlumSheep]

Where the hell is Grumpy in Camelot? We've seen Granny and Doc, but I don't recall seeing Grumpy since the ball. Is he hanging out with Lancelot in Offscreenville?

I've headcanoned that they are off on a mission to de-sand Guin. Obviously by the end of all this they end up failing because of how things turned out back in Storybrooke, but at least they would be active trying to help. It's better than thinking that they've just been sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

I mean, Doc was even there for goodness sakes!

[Camera One]

The Zelena gloating scenes with Hook and Emma might have worked a bit better if they weren't trying to sell that she cares so much about that baby.  She could have taken the baby from Robin and be halfway to Oz by then, since Regina was otherwise occupied.  She also knew squid ink doesn't last forever and Dark Emma could grab her back very quickly if she was still in Storybrooke.  Why would Dark Emma have Dreamcatchers lying around everywhere with incriminating memories anyway?  Why wouldn't she have hidden the Squid Ink magically instead of behind some random painting Hook took down?  The most annoying part of the episode for me was how they had Arthur getting freed so he could later slash Hook.  There was no way Dark Emma's magic rope around Zelena would have been so easy to remove.  These types of things took me out of this episode.  

[Mari]

I imagine that Dr. Whale is going to invest in some padded walls for the maternity ward.

Or a bubble suit to wear to deliveries.

 

Personally, I vote bubble suit.

 

The Zelena gloating scenes with Hook and Emma might have worked a bit better if they weren't trying to sell that she cares so much about that baby.  

I bought it.  Partly because they haven't been convincing about Zelena loving the baby.

 

Zelena is set on the baby loving her, which is different.  It's still all about her;  the baby is just the latest in a line of people who will disappoint her because, well, people do.  Zelena is just not equipped to accept that, I think.

[Camera One]

Even if she doesn't care about her baby, she cares about herself, and she knew full well she could be murdered by Dark Emma the moment the squid ink wore off.  The narrative needed someone to reveal the truth to Hook and Zelena was just the convenient mouthpiece.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Tiger]

Dark Captain Swan. I still can't believe this. This was an episode that I will actually watch again. 

I still don't care for Zelena, but my god her snark gives me life. 

 

Rebecca looks like she is having a blast.  

[Randomosity]

Just watched again. So Merlin's exact words to Emma's idea to tether Killian to Excalibur: "Emma, you know what that could do." COULD. Not will, not must, could.

 

It was Regina who said it would create another Dark One. Everything else Merlin then followed that up with seemed to be about Emma going darker and completing her conversion into the Dark One or whatever. My question - what the hell does Regina know about how or why it would turn Hook dark? And why does the 'tether' suddenly make Hook dark when Merlin wasn't dark with it? I'm confuzzled.

[Camera One]

Why would tethering Merlin to the broken Excalibur cause Darkness to enter him?  Because we saw Darkness streaming out of him when he was "freed".  Though for a moment, I thought those were branches and he was turning into a tree again.  I just love the CGI on this show.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Randomosity]

Why would tethering Merlin to the broken Excalibur cause Darkness to enter him? 

 

Also a good question. I feel like I might need to watch 'Nimue' again, but I also feel like that won't help clarify anything, because logic has no place on OUAT.

[KAOS Agent]

Anyone wonder where Hook was going to get the money to buy that house? And whom did Emma displace/screw out of payment when she took it over via the new curse?

Edited November 17, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Here's a tumblr post that actually makes the most sense as an explanation. Basically what it's saying is that Emma used Dark Magic to tether Killian to Excalibur. She couldn't grant him immortality. I do wish the dialogue within the episode had made it clearer. 

[Mari]

Anyone wonder where Hook was going to get the money to buy that house?

 

I've decided that in Offscreenville, it was revealed that Hook had buried several chests of gold/jewels/etc somewhere in Storybrooke, and then received still more additional fund when his ship popped out of the bottle.

 

Henry helped him sell some of it, since as far back as season 3 he was planning on an apartment or a house for Emma in Storybrooke, while Emma was still thinking about New York.

 

It makes as much sense as anything else.

 

 

He did have gold. How much, we don't know, but he told David he was still paying for things in doubloons forever ago when they were staring at the ice wall.

 

 

Yup.  I've just decided that until proven otherwise, he has lots and lots and lots of it.  I figure why not?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Mari

[Randomosity]

I've decided that in Offscreenville, it was revealed that Hook had buried several chests of gold/jewels/etc somewhere in Storybrooke, and then received still more additional fund when his ship popped out of the bottle.

 

 

He did have gold. How much, we don't know, but he told David he was still paying for things in doubloons forever ago when they were staring at the ice wall.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Randomosity

[Randomosity]

Here's a tumblr post that actually makes the most sense as an explanation. Basically what it's saying is that Emma used Dark Magic to tether Killian to Excalibur. She couldn't grant him immortality. I do wish the dialogue within the episode had made it clearer. 

 

Meh, I guess. Thanks for linking. But still, meh. It says Hook is Dark because Emma can't grant immortality, which only the grail can. But, uh, he didn't die. And still can't die. So... immortality. Brought to you by Emma, who can't grant it?

 

 

I think one of the main things that rubs me the wrong way about this storyline is that, yeah, Emma was selfish to save him. And she was naughty and used her Darkness to do it. But, jeez, she wanted her future with him. You know, AKA their happy ending? The thing that everyone's usually all for? Sigh. Poor Emma, she just can't win.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Randomosity

[tennisgurl]

It almost makes it seem like magic users should be like Jedi, and have no real connections to each other. You get powers, you find people you care about, and you cross the line trying to protect them. It starts with frolicking in fields, and ends with force chocking.

 

I kid, but I am curious as to how we are supposed to take all this. The idea that doing one negative thing will immediately lead to a slippery slope of darkness.   

Edited November 17, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

Why on earth did Merlin have a spell for destroying Light Magic in his book?? (cries of a newborn? Really?) That man needed to be stopped. He was like a mad scientist in his reckless creation of destructive spells and objects. 

[Leia1979]

In a way, Hook died the same way his brother did. Liam scratched his own arm with a thorn and Hook got scratched on his neck. Both were fatal due to the nature of the scratching device, Both were easily healed by magic, but the healing was an illusion. Liam's healing only lasted until he left Neverland and Hook's only lasted a little while (or until somebody forged the sword or Calvinball rules required it). Both died in their loved one's arms and both triggered a dark changed in their loved one (Hook became a pirate and Emma became the Dark One). The only difference is that Liam actually did die while Hook had his agency taken from him and was turned into what he hated the most.

 

I wonder if there is something in that parallelism we are supposed to get?

Interesting considering Hook also mentioned the ring he gave Emma belonged to Liam, and I can't recall the last time his brother was mentioned.

 

For some reason, I now want the dark couple to start terrorizing Storybrooke in their coordinating black leather outfits. But then I remembered we sort of had that with Gold and Lacey a couple years ago. 

[PixiePaws1]

I understand why many people regard Emma tethering Killian to the sword as selfish  and, this is likely how other characters will also see it, but I just can't see it that way.

This was a desperate act by a desperate, grief stricken soul. Ye gods, what this poor  woman has been through! She only just recently watched helplessly as he died to save her and Henry. It was only a few seconds, but when she got to the loft and he wasn't there, she'd thought she'd lost him. So she already knows how if felt to lose him. Add this to all the loss and loneliness she endured in her life. Then a very short time later she is sacrificing everything to save everyone, but  in doing so , she takes away HIS happy ending without even getting the chance to discuss it first, adn she has to leave her son. She knows how utterly devastated he was going to be when she became the Dark One, so she had to  be carrying some level of guilt over putting him through that. She gets dumped in the EF (and we all know how she just loves it there!) and is immediately hit with ear worm Rumple driving her bonkers, she can't sleep (and personally, I think the deep, roughened voice is a result of sleep deprivation rather than being Darked up) and falls  into creating a bazillion creepy dreamcatchers in what looks to me like an OCD.

The poor creature looks completely exhausted,  look at the way she just collapses on Killian after the fight with Merlin. Her family is threatened, her mother is nearly strangled AFTER she realises she doesn't have the firepower to beat Merlin and then finally, FINALLY after literally being commanded to face her deepest fears, she is ready to get rid of the darkness and  . . .WHAM!

Honestly, how is this woman still standing?? I don't think her actions came from a  selfish place.. Yes, her judgement was impaired by the darkness and for a while there she was hanging onto her sanity by a thread, but she finally believes him when he says she never fails and that she believes they are stronger together and can face whatever happens, together. She didn't know for certain he would be a DO.  I really don't believe she was in the headspace to be selfish OR selfless, she was acting on instinct to hold on to something.

Just my two cents . . . and a LOT of sentences . . .

[YaddaYadda]

And why does the 'tether' suddenly make Hook dark when Merlin wasn't dark with it? I'm confuzzled.

We saw darkness leave Merlin and transfer into the sword, so I'm guessing Arthur ordering Merlin to do terrible things, like strangling Snow, with his light magic was slowly turning him dark. Emma managed to talk Merlin down, she was telling him to resist the darkness.

 

I think she effectively tethered Merlin's darkness, which I'm guessing was powerful because of who Merlin is, to Killian, like she tethered the goop to herself back in Storybrooke.

 

That's all I can come up with to explain why Hook came out of the Dark One's vault.

[HoodlumSheep]

Could Emma tethering his name be the cause of the dark magic? Because she was tethering him to a crazy magical/holy? sword the sword got contaminated. Although, I guess Zelena tainted the sword half first, so it'd be all her fault. Except, I guess that means Merlin would have performed dark magic way back when he tethered Nimue. Maybe Merlin (through all his ridiculous experiments and stuff) actually has a bunch of dormant dark magic in him?

Plus add on his 2 evil things he id under Arthur's control.

Actually, what was Merlin's original color of magic (wasn't it white light/flashes)? It was purple when he fought emma, so does that mean the tethering tainted him, or the fact that Arthur was using him for evil?

Edited November 17, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[kili]

I'm having a hard time deciding whether Merlin is an idiot or evil.

 

Here are the facts:

1) Merlin knows that Emma is the Dark One

2) Merlin knows how important loved ones are for helping the Dark One. He said so himself

3) He knows that Emma loves Killian.

4) He knows that even scratches from Excalibur are fatal.

5) He knows that Killian has been scratched by Excalibur. He was right there.

 

He could have said "I"m sorry, Emma & Killian, scratches from Excalibur are always fatal. Best to say your peace now and take a few hours to say goodbye".

But what he did was, keep this all secret and wait until Killian was mostly dead before revealing the secret turning it into a desperate sitution and giving nobody time to think or process.

 

Or did he want Hook to become the Dark One and he's at the Dumbledore levels of pawn manipulation?

[YaddaYadda]

Merlin is a moron of giant proportions.

 

He creates Excalibur out of the Grail to cut his immortality, but never mind the poor suckers, mere mortals who get nicked by it. Then he uses part of it to tether Nimue's soul to the dagger so that he can control her, you know, just in case.

 

Then he turns around and makes a hat that will cleave the Dark One from the control of the dagger.

 

Incidentally, the two people who were going to pay the price for the hat, were Emma, because of her magical powers, and Hook because of his heart.

 

And now with Excalibur, Emma and Hook are paying for Merlin being such a little fucker. Because he really is. He said he sees 2 paths for Emma. It was never either/or. She was always going to walk both paths.

 

He sucks!

[kili]

Then he uses part of it to tether Nimue's soul to the dagger so that he can control her, you know, just in case.

 

 

Which lasts all of 10 seconds because he uses it to call her once and then drops it to the ground and she picks it up and it is used for general mayhem for the next 500 years.

 

And then, because he is completel moron, he writes the spell down so that other people can tether him to the rest of the sword and make him do evil things. Why not? What could possibly go wrong?

 

And then, the Dark One can get a hold of the sword and make more Dark Ones. Excellent.

Edited November 17, 2015 by kili

[HoodlumSheep]

You know what. I've had an epiphany.

Merlin is the human embodiment of The Eagles from The Hobbit/LotR.

It all makes sense now.

[YaddaYadda]

Which lasts all of 10 seconds because he uses it to call her once and then drops it to the ground and she picks it up and it is used for general mayhem for the next 500 years.

 

And then, because he is completel moron, he writes the spell down so that othe rpeople can tether him to the rest of the sword and make him do evil things. Why not? What could possibly go wrong?

 

And then, the Dark One can get a hold of the sword and make more Dark Ones. Excellent.

 

He also wrote the spell to snuff out Light magic.

 

Him in a tree wasn't the worst thing that happened to the world.

[InsertWordHere]

I think Merlin is Dumbledore, doing this all for the greater good. His goal is to get rid of the Dark Ones and he doesn't care about who gets hurt in the process. He's always known that Hook would become the Dark One.

[chrisvee]

What also irks me about this story is that Emma -- after a superhuman battle to mentally resist the Dark One that transpires over days? weeks? -- now must lose the one person who embodies her happy ending of a loving home -- and then because she can't jump that freaking hurdle, she makes a really huge mistake that puts everyone in jeopardy.

And poor Hook -- who has done nothing but turn his life around and provide amazing support to Emma while asking very little in return -- gets turns to the darkness against his will.

Sucks to be Hook and Emma. Shame Merlin couldn't have fixed his own damned mistake instead of getting turned into a tree.

Edited November 17, 2015 by chrisvee

[Rumsy4]

He could have said "I"m sorry, Emma & Killian, scratches from Excalibur are always fatal. Best to say your peace now and take a few hours to say goodbye".

But what he did was, keep this all secret and wait until Killian was mostly dead before revealing the secret turning it into a desperate sitution and giving nobody time to think or process.

 

I think Merlin was sort of out of it when Hook got cut and then Emma healed it quickly. Just cutting him a little slack for this (alone). :-p

 

I think Merlin is Dumbledore, doing this all for the greater good. His goal is to get rid of the Dark Ones and he doesn't care about who gets hurt in the process. He's always known that Hook would become the Dark One.

 

He could be either Dumbledore or Jacob from LOST. Both were manipulators with a secret long-term agenda.

 

He also wrote the spell to snuff out Light magic.

 

Him in a tree wasn't the worst thing that happened to the world.

 

Seriously! If Nimue hadn't Tree-ed him, he would have continued making all sorts of dangerous spells and objects. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[daxx]

Merlin's a cutie, but he's not exactly the best at this whole helping out thing. Wouldn't want him as a life coach. 

 

Similarly, what about Dopey? Is anyone trying to help him?

j

You mean you are not exactly seeing the helping?

[Rumsy4]

I rewatched the episode (skipped some bits). Seriously amazing episode but so painful! All the awards to Jen and Colin! Sigh...

[jaytee1812]

I think Colin O'Donoghue has ruined this show. Emma has gone from powerful saviour to lovesick teenager, in love with a man who tried to kill her.

[Randomosity]

I think Colin O'Donoghue has ruined this show. Emma has gone from powerful saviour to lovesick teenager, in love with a man who tried to kill her.

Yeah, love sucks and never gets anyone anywhere in terms of saving anyone. Except, you know, when Emma broke the original curse. And everyone else's curse-breaking rooted in love...

[jaytee1812]

Yeah, love sucks and never gets anyone anywhere in terms of saving anyone. Except, you know, when Emma broke the original curse. And everyone else's curse-breaking rooted in love...

I don't have a problem with love, I have a problem with a powerful woman becoming a pathetic mess for a man who tried to kill her.

Emma's definitely not her mother's daughter.

[Shanna Marie]

As good as this episode was, it doesn't really hold up well when you put much thought into it, and we have two weeks to think about it. For instance ...
 

He could have said "I"m sorry, Emma & Killian, scratches from Excalibur are always fatal. Best to say your peace now and take a few hours to say goodbye".

But what he did was, keep this all secret and wait until Killian was mostly dead before revealing the secret turning it into a desperate sitution and giving nobody time to think or process.

I wasn't entirely clear whether any wound whatsoever, even just a scratch, from Excalibur was fatal or it was just that wounds from Excalibur don't heal, which means that you might go on with a chronic wound if it's non-mortal, but a mortal wound is permanent, no matter how much magic there is. If it's the former, then you'd think he'd have said something before sending Team You Had One Job off to get it -- "You might want to wear gloves when handling it, just in case." If it's the latter then he still should have warned them (and it would have a parallel in Arthurian mythology, with the Fisher King whose wound wouldn't heal). And did that magic only kick in when the sword started to be made whole? So could Arthur have nicked himself once or twice over the years but wouldn't have seen any effect until Emma started to reunite the sword and the dagger? Is Hook really the only person who ever got any injury at all from Excalibur? But I guess that having Merlin act with any logic and warn people would have ruined the shock of Hook collapsing.

 

I'm also not really getting how an object made from the Holy Grail would be so automatically deadly. There should be a healing component to it, since it's an object that gives eternal life. As usual with magic on this show, Calvinball.

 

Then there's that conversation between Regina and Emma, which mirrors things the writers and Jen have said about Emma being the Dark One, and which bears no resemblance to what we've seen on the screen. Up to that point, Pale Gray Emma had been miserable. She was desperately fighting the darkness, and when forced to use her powers, she felt awful about it. There was apparently some thrill in using the power to heal Robin, but Emma was able to heal pre-Darkness. The only difference for her, really, was that she was able to do the tough things that had to be done without the kind of moral qualms she'd usually have, like hurting Henry enough to get the tears for the spell. Even then, she felt bad about it. Moving past that conversation to full-on darkness, she still doesn't seem to be having any fun or enjoying getting to be selfish. She's desperately trying to save Hook before he figures it out, and still it just boils down to her being able to do the things that have to be done without conscience getting in the way. She's not acting at all liberated. The one moment of selfishness that probably wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been the Dark One is saving Hook the way she did. Regular Emma would have been crushed at him dying on her, but I don't think she would have disregarded his wishes that way. Unless she goes on a wild and crazy spree in the next couple of episodes, I'm not getting the sense of liberation and the enjoyment of pure power that they've been talking about.

 

I still can't make sense of how tethering Hook to the sword makes him a Dark One. I'm going to need a thorough explanation with visual aids. And I don't get how he can be all that dark and have been a Dark One all this time without knowing it. He's been on his best behavior while back in Storybrooke, acting the opposite of what we've been told a Dark One is all about. He's held the line on his own values, even when it meant rejecting Emma -- the big "that's not who I am" line. He refused to let her hurt Zelena, even to save Emma, even though he doesn't have any reason to care about Zelena. This isn't someone who has some great darkness within him, and I can't see how not remembering would make that much difference. If anything, not remembering should make matters worse because he wouldn't know he needed to fight. All I can think of is that this is what it's always like for him, that he's always fighting off his inner darkness and the worst part of his nature, so he always feels this struggle, and he didn't notice the difference.

 

I'm afraid that if I rewatch this without the emotional impact of seeing it the first time, it'll totally fall apart.

[FierceAfroChick]

I don't have a problem with love, I have a problem with a powerful woman becoming a pathetic mess for a man who tried to kill her.

 

I hope he tries to kill her in bed too...I need that in my life.

 

Emma's definitely not her mother's daughter.

 

 

Well, Snow kind of dotes on the woman who has repeatedly tried to kill her, her husband, and her child, so Emma really is like her mama.

Edited November 17, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Randomosity]

I don't have a problem with love, I have a problem with a powerful woman becoming a pathetic mess for a man who tried to kill her.

Emma's definitely not her mother's daughter.

To be fair, I may be having a brain fart, but when was this attempted murder?

Yeah, Snow is currently useless. So no, Emma is not like her.

[jaytee1812]

To be fair, I may be having a brain fart, but when was this attempted murder?

Yeah, Snow is currently useless. So no, Emma is not like her.

Season 2 when he was working with Cora, it happen more than once as I recall.