S05.E08: Birth

[formerlyfreedom]

Emma's dark plan will finally be exposed. A startling revelation that will splinter their world like never before.

 

 

[InsertWordHere]

I have been waiting on hour to ask this question (sorry Mulan and Red, I really couldn't give you my full attention and it was a bad choice to air these eps together):

 

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?!

 

(oh and Hook's totally playing Zelena and he's been dark this whole time but hasn't acted like it and he was dying and he still wanted Emma to destroy the darkness and have a future and he doesn't think he can be as strong as Emma and resist the darkness and she shouldn't have forced it on him but it was that or death)

 

I'm fine. Totally fine.

[Curio]

I feel like I just went from eating at an amazing 5-star restaurant to eating a TV dinner that’s been left out for three days.

[Delphi]

Look ABC, I'm sorry that season 4 didn't sell well. But I'm not buying it.

I loved seeing Red and Mulan but Damn were they wasted.

[Ikki]

Why the hell were these episodes aired together like this... 

 

At the same time, RUBY. MULAN. BRAVE RED WARRIOR.

 

Like, I should've gone to bed after the first episode, but the part of me that actually cares about shipping is glad I didn't.

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm going to say it again....I hate the glamour spell.

[Mari]

Commercial side note:  Why is Jennifer Lopez dressed like Elvis and Dolly Parton had a baby that they bedazzled when she grew up?  Why?

 

Hey--Granny’s still around.  Huh.  I thought maybe she wandered off.   Maybe she spent some time looking for Ruby, so they could visit?

 

You know what’s most frustrating about this?  Emma still hasn’t done anything particularly evil.  What’s with the “Emma’s not in there anymore.” talk from Regina and the Charmings?  It sounds ridiculous--especially coming from Regina, who’s done far, far worse things than anything they’d seen Emma do.  Snow and David haven’t even had a conversation with Dark Swan, apart from the initial welcome back to Storybrooke.  So them giving up on Emma?  It’s completely unearned.

 

Okay, I will admit I didn’t see “Killian the not quite a Dark One” coming.

 

And, now, let’s pause the main story for  a random adventure with Merida.  So much Merida.  So very much Merida.  And does anyone have any ideas about how the Mulan 2 years thing fits in with the Team Princess adventures, and Mulan joining Robin Hood?  Because wasn’t that about 1½-2 years ago?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mari

[Spartan Girl]

Arthur killed King Fergus. Not shocked. But I'm still glad Arthur got his ass handed to him several times in two hours.

It really sucks to love Captain Swan right now. That's all I've got to say.

[mjgchick]

I'm so glad I didn't stop watching that second hour. I can't even process what I saw in the first hour so I used the second hour to calm me the fuck down because Emma done fucked up. But we also got Mulan to be sparkly with both Merida and Red.

 

 

I still don't know why Red ended in the Enchanted Forrest though.

[OnceUponAJen]

Well, didn't Merida have a flask that allows you to speak to someone who's crossed to the Underworld? I can see that coming up again.

[Panopticon]

Hook and Henry picked out the house for Emma, and that's enough happy for me to be going on with.

P.S. When the Dark One offers you onion rings, don't take them.

P.P.S. What an odd set of episodes to run together. They didn't complement each other at all and could have belonged to two separate series sharing a villain in Evil Arthur.

[pcta]

I have bailed after first episode. Because the direction of the story is NOT OK. They've mucked up every character but Killian and now he gets it? Gone. Gone. Gone.

[irisheyes]

First hour had me on the edge of my seat going "What the hell was THAT?!??"

Second hour had me yawning going "What the HELL was that?"

How many episodes left until the winter finale?

[chrisvee]

Ok first people could become Dark Ones without killing the prior Dark One to save everyone else (Emma) now they can become Dark Ones against their will (Merlin, Hook). Life just sucks all around for the heroes.

Poor Captain Swan.

[Chaos Theory]

The first episode was better then the second but I enjoyed both. As someone who is not a Emma/Hook shipper I actually might very much enjoy what the hell are we going to call them? Dark Ones Emma/Hook. I find the idea incredibly fascinating.

As for the second episode it was a lot slower considering how enjoyable the first episode was but I liked it anyway. I liked Merida's adventure with Mulan and Ruby to prove her father didn't use the zombie helmet.

[Ikki]

As weird as it was that they aired these two episodes together (and it was quite weird), maybe they figured they couldn't just air the second episode on it's own at some point? I would've been there for Mulan and Ruby, but the whole lack of the main cast thing would have made the episode seem strange anywhere, I think.

[tennisgurl]

Seriously, WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST WATCH?!?!

[CatMack]

How did anyone with any tiny shred of knowledge about storytelling think that airing these two episodes together was in any way anything but a horrible, no good, very bad idea?  Pacing?  What pacing?  Fuck pacing, have a shiny Scott. 

[mjgchick]

Honestly show if you wanted to tell us Emma and Hook are true loves you didn't have to go through all of this theatrics. I grief does make you do crazy things but calm down A&E.

[kennyab]

Oh, Show, I'm usually a master of fanwankery, but can't you keep the story straight between two episodes? Nimue became the Dark One by killing someone with magic after drinking from the Grail. The tether to the dagger came later. But now the tethering process turns someone into a Dark One? Please, read your own scripts.

[bmoore4026]

Dr. Whale! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!  And he's flippant!  Double yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

 

Goddamn but people get tied up often on this show, don' they?  Not that I'm complaining in terms of Hook, Charming, and Robin (woo woo).

 

This whole Dark One storyline is going to end like The Dark Phoenix Saga from the X-Men comics, ain't it?  Someone's going to blow themselves up to keep from being corrupted by darkness.  My guess it'll be the baby.

 

I'm getting annoyed with shows casting young actors for characters that are supposed to be older.  I thought Merida's mother would be in her late forties by now, so who the hell is this actress who looks to be the same age as Merida claiming to be the old queen!?

 

I did like Merida's angry "You have no idea what's coming" line at the end, because, right now, Arthur needs to be hung up by his balls and swatted repeatedly with cricket bats.  Maybe force Guinevere to join in at gunpoint (or magicpoint).

 

Lastly, Ruby and Mulan need their own spin-off.

 

Now, I gotta wait for the encore performance of The Walking Dead.  Gonna be awhile because of the shit sword fighting show that's not Mortal Kombat screwed up the schedule for everybody!

Edited November 16, 2015 by bmoore4026

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, why pair those episodes together? They have nothing in common at all, besides Arthur and Zelena showing up. I feel bad because the Merida/Ruby/Mulan show was hardly a bad watch, but following that epic bombshell? How am I supposed to focus on anything else!? 

[ABitOFluff]

I admit I died little when it was revealed that Emma's house was Killian's idea, but talk about a complicated relationship. At least now some spoilers of the future episodes make more sense.

 

I couldn't get into the second hour at all, but it was good seeing Ruby and Mulan. Merida, girl, I'm glad your story's over now.

Edited November 16, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[FierceAfroChick]

I...have no words.  I'm just gonna go rewatch and die from the Captain Swan feels and read this forum.  

 

Oh wait...lemme say this...Merida needs to go.

Edited November 16, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Chicken Wing]

The first episode really should have aired last. The Merida episode wasn't much of a "finale" to a two-part event. Very much a "We're only airing this now because we're pre-empted next week and we have to stay on schedule" thing, but they didn't go well together at all. I kept waiting for some big twist that tied back to the first episode to justify why the two were paired together. There wasn't. It was, apparently, nothing more than a scheduling necessity.

 

"Bear" was entertaining, though, I guess, despite the "Hey, remember that character?!" parade. (Was anyone actually missing Ruby or Mulan?)

 

"Birth" was awesome. I've never been on the Captain Swan (or any shipper) boat, but damn that was heartbreaking. Seeing Hook look at Dark Emma Crazy One with such hatred was the saddest thing ever.

[BoPeeps]

OK, who put peyote pills in the coffee in the writer's room?

[mtlchick]

"Aw hell to the NO!" - episode 1

"Aw, HELL no" - episode 2.

 

It was nice to see Red and Mulan.  But please tell me that this was a network head that said to pair these two together because if it was a showrunner I'll be highly displeased.  These episodes didn't go together at ALL!

 

But back to episode 1; at least the love birds are bound together.  Too bad it was for the wrong reasons.  I hope to God this gets rectified soon. 

 

Edit; I had to laugh at how they had to explain Dr Whale's funky new do.  The drawbacks on filming on another show at the same time...

Edited November 16, 2015 by mtlchick

[Writing Wrongs]

They brought Whale back just so he could end up knocked out again? Um, ok. I feel like he was channeling Blaine more than Whale.

 

First episode was great. Second one was yawn. Brave and Merida is just not flowing into the main storyline like the Frozen characters did. If I was the regular cast, I'd be pissed at all the guest characters taking up space.

[Senna]

The first episode was all melty Captain Swan goodness ... and then of course, cold hard angsty advancement of plot.  I'm disappointed at how Hook's deadly injury came about.  And the bit with putting Hook's name on Excalibur happened way too fast to follow.  And I don't buy him being so mad at Emma.

 

The second episode I was afraid was going to be nothing but terrible wigs and Merida's way-too-young mother.  Why do they have to slow things down like this?!
No one cared about Merida before, and I care about her even less now when she's taking up time when I desperately want more actual plot.

 

Oh, and an honor-less Mulan,  What the hell, show?  I can't even remember where we last left her (other than the Aurora pregnancy news), but I do remember I was finally warming to her.  She was OK here, but the mercenary bit felt all kinds of wrong even in her brokenheartedness.

 

Ruby, on the other hand ... I do appreciate that they didn't kill the character off with the actress getting busy with other projects, because I've always liked Ruby.  But why couldn't we have gotten this story when she "left"?   I seem to remember her wolf self being bigger.

 

Arthur is getting to be such a tool.  I liked his crazy villainy earlier in the season, but it's being overused.  He has his hands in way too many pots.

[AmeliaBedelia]

It's been an hour, and I'm still thinking about the first episode. That was awesome. As a Hook/Emma fan I was loving every second.

 

The Good:

Every CS scene. I kept saying "This is my favorite scene," and then they would go and top it.

Hook picked a house for them to live in and he enlisted Henry (first time I awed at the television, but certainly not the last).

Dr. Whale's return was funny. I don't like DA on iZombie, but I do like him on Once.

The show is not even pretending that Zelena's baby will be important. I guess Neal will have to make some room in his offscreen closet.

The editing between Camelot and present-day was actually pretty good. I loved getting to see Hook watching his memories in the dreamcatcher.

Hook in a Dark One robe. I hope there's more where that came from.

 

The rest:

Regina/Emma scene. I didn't hate it. Regina is the only one who would use the dagger to force Emma to admit her true feelings. But, it would have been nice to replace this scene with a Snow/Emma heart-to-heart.

CGI of the darkness at the end was a little wonky.

 

I watched none of the second episode, though I did flip the channel to catch the promo (more angst...I love it). Maybe I'll watch 5x09 next week while Once is off.

 

 

[InsertWordHere]

So are they really trying to tell us that if you don't know you're the Dark One you won't turn dark? Or did Emma do something to Hook to make him not act dark?

[Hook75]

OMG, the first hour killed me! OMG!!!!

[Curio]

You know what’s most frustrating about this? Emma still hasn’t done anything particularly evil.

 

One could argue that Emma forcing darkness into Hook against his free will, especially when Emma knows how much Hook hates The Dark One and spent hundreds of years thinking it was his biggest enemy, is slightly evil-leaning.

 

With that being said, I am completely confused by Hook's 180 turn at the very end because it seemed incredibly out of character, even if he is technically a Dark One. That better be a bait and switch and he's playing Zelena or something.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Curio

[Arnella]

Finally getting some traction on the Dark Swan story and then what??  It was very nice to see Red again but I cannot tell you how much I don't care about Merida.  She was just slightly annoying when she was a side character but a whole HOUR of her??  ACCKK! 

[KingOfHearts]

Hello. My name is Merida of DunBroch. You killed my father... prepare to die.

 

Pros:

* First half was phenomenal. Plot moved forward, all the characters had their respective spotlight and were utilized well. Jennifer and Colin were acting the heck out of their roles. It was engaging and beautifully done. Probably my favorite episode of the season so far.

* Zelena remains awesome. She always seems to have the practical view of things.

* The casting for Fergus and the Witch were spot on.

* Dr. Whale. That was funny.

 

Cons:

* Nobody cares about you, Merida. No one. 

* The second half was basically OUAT on drugs.

* You could count the number of stories that got less closure than Merida's on a few hands.

* Queen Elanor's casting was horrible. She looked maybe 10 years older than Merida tops.

* Arthur killed Fergus?! How shocking... how heart-stopping... how.... predictable and boring. I almost thought it was AU Rumple because of the armor.

* Red and Mulan's returns were contrived.

* So Mary Margaret decides she suddenly cared about Red in the middle of that party. Then afterwards, no one says anything? Oh I forgot - Marian's return trumps everything because it involves Regina's happiness.

* Another magic bean? How many jokes can we crack about the ongoing taxi service between realms?
* 

Witch: "Underworld. Did you hear me? I said Underworld!"

* The seance water. It's so convenient that the only person who has it was that random witch from Brave. Of all the dead characters we could be talking to, we're stuck with King Fergus. That's just great. Yet Cora is stuck as a mute ghost.

* There's a pregnancy acceleration spell. Why didn't Zelena just do that in 3B?
* Arthur and Zelena's quest for DunBroch was completely pointless. Not thrown in at the last minute at all...

* I still don't understand how Hook is a Dark One now... like the mechanics of it. I don't get how Emma did it. I also don't understand how just now he's acting like one and not before.

 

Those two hours were so polarized in quality. I'd say the first half was the best OUAT can offer at this point, while the second was the worst. They were two completely different shows. I'll probably have more Pros to talk about after I remember more of what happened. The second half killed the momentum so much it fogged my brain.

 

 

Okay, I will admit I didn’t see “Killian the not quite a Dark One” coming.

I'm calling him the Dark Two.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

No seriously WTF did we just watched 2 hours ago? JFC I mean at least this show knows how to work the angst without the cheating scandals and stuff but I still don't know how to process what happened.

 

For the Merida episode I did enjoy it but like others said it was not the right time to air it. Snow had a longer conversation with Red than she's had with her daughter all season long.

[OnceUponAJen]

I predict a Dark Ones throwdown of epic proportions coming. How did Killian go so quickly from, "I'll love you no matter what you've done" to the total opposite, teaming up with Zelena against her? C'mon Zelena, this is your OTP we're talking about.

No wonder Hades is pissed off....how many people have cheated death now?

I could not focus on hour 2 at all, so I muted it about halfway in. I did see the lovely goodbye scene between Merida and her father, though. Well done there!

[scarynikki12]

At least we now know why the True Love's Kiss wasn't working in Storybrooke. Hook not knowing he's a Dark One likely prevented that completion on his side and Emma was afraid removing the darkness from him would finish him off. That actually made sense!

The second hour was reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally boring though. I was happy to see Red (she's pulling a Snow and telling people her Curse name is her real one but at least she lets them call her Red as a compromise) and Mulan but they should have been incorporated into the main Camelot story instead.

[Babs Gordon]

Too be honest, I'm not even completely sure what happened in the second hour since I'm still so emotionally compromised from the first episode. HOLY SHIT. 

[Mari]

Merida, girl, I'm glad you're story's over now.

We're going to have to see her again.  She somehow came to Storybrooke with them, so she's at least in next week's episode, and they'll have to send her back.  

 

Yay. And yay!

 

(And why is she acting like Arthur snuck into Fergus's bathroom and stabbed him while he was peeing?  Because what did she think the people they were at war with were going to do?  What did she think Fergus was doing to them?  I mean, yes, Arthur's a weasel, but her shocked, "You betrayed us!"  style reaction makes no sense.)

 

 

One could argue that Emma forcing darkness into Hook against his free will, especially when Emma knows how much Hook person hates The Dark One and spent hundreds of years thinking it was his biggest enemy, is slightly evil-leaning.

 

With that being said, I am completely confused by Hook's 180 turn at the very end because it seemed incredibly out of character, even if he is technically a Dark One. That better be a bait and switch and he's playing Zelena or something.

Oh, it absolutely is a bad thing.

 

But when they were having their "OH, NOES!  Emma's super extra evil and unsaveable!" moment before any of them knew any of that.  Therefore, unearned and overreacting on their part.

 

 

As for Hook--any chance he's playing another mind game?  I get him being angry at Emma, but I have trouble seeing him getting all of those memories, and going straight to "End Emma."

[pezgirl7]

I think we should have two separate episode threads for these two entirely separate episodes. I have no interest in talking about the Bear King, although I have to ask, since I fastforwarded through a lot of it, did I miss the gay storyline? Wasn't there suppose to be something between Mulan and Ruby? Or was all this hype about Mulan admitting she was in love, which we aleady knew?

The Birth episode was insane. I'm still trying to process everything that happened. There was so much lovely CS stuff, but then it ended with Hook becoming the thing that he has hated the most. And boy his death scene was really hard to watch. He really did look like he was in pain. I don't really understand how he hasn't manifested any magic yet or had no idea that something was off with himself. I also hate that he seemed so angry at Emma with what she did. I know some people think he's pretending because Zelena is still there, but I don't really believe that.

[Guest]

I really loved the first hour.  Didn't watch the second hour after the previously let slip that it was all Merida.

 

The only thing I didn't get about Hook was this...  How does having his memory removed remove the Dark One tendencies?  Is that really all it takes?  Can't they just make Emma forget everything from the end of 4B?

[ABitOFluff]

With that being said, I am completely confused by Hook's 180 turn at the very end because it seemed incredibly out of character, even if he is technically a Dark One. That better be a bait and switch and he's playing Zelena or something.

No, I think it's totally playing Zelena.

[CalamityBoPeep]

Hated it. I was going along fine with the whole "Emma's doing what she's doing for Hook," loving the build-up, until their stupid, stupid, (and have I said how much I hated this?) Twist <spit>, of Hook now being dark.  I'm so pissed with this show right now, I just can't.

 

How on earth do they justify taking everything that makes a good story (and has, for as long as humans have been around) and throwing it all out the window, in an effort to be all subversive, or whatever they think they're being?  There is a reason the Hero's Journey appeals to people, Show!  There is a reason that stories about justice, and adventures, and mysteries have scenes where "All is revealed" and Heroes are victorious, and that reason is Human-Freaking-Nature.  People do not like to see their strong, moral characters destroyed. It is so deeply unsatisfying to have all this build-up, all these bread crumbs, and find it all leads to...

 

SOMEHOW (the writers don't even know how)... all the universal balance of the magic symbolized by broken Excalibur, with Light and Dark... well, that balance is off and NOW... NOW it's all DARK.  Merlin+Nimue=whole sword.  Light and Dark magic.  Now Emma+Hook=whole sword.... but nope, no parallel here.  No good story telling.  It's all freaking dark.

 

I hate this show, right now.

 

And it's all initial impressions right now, but I'll just add, that second hour was boring as f*ck.

 

I was so looking forward to tonight's episode.  Now I think I might just really be done.  Guess I'll see what y'all think in two weeks, before I bother starting the episode.  If this story's universe isn't righted, I'm out.

Edited November 16, 2015 by CalamityBoPeep

[Rosiejuliemom]

Not gonna lie, I haven't watched the second part yet. I do enjoy this show, but the Walking Dead has a claim on Sundays at 8.

 

The first part, however, is my favorite episode of the season thus far. Possibly the best in a couple seasons, if I'm honest with myself. All the delicious CS feels are making my head spin.

 

Have the Charmings and Emma exchanged words since 5x02?

 

Arthur now sucks giant balls. I don't care if he single-handedly saves every realm, gives everyone their happy ending, and personally makes Dopey a lifetime supply of tacos, he is still Arthur: The Once and Future Suck.

[Shanna Marie]

It'll be interesting to see how the ratings play out for these because that first episode ended with such a bombshell cliffhanger that it made what followed seem weak and inconsequential. A better approach might have been to weave them together better, or at least have the opening bit of the showdown in the forest, then follow Zelena and Arthur after they poofed away before coming back to the real plot. As it is, the second hour felt like filler. We get to see Merida yet again, for the second time in a single arc, prove to herself that she's a leader.

 

The people in this world have absolutely zero resilience when it comes to romance. No, Mulan, you didn't lose the person you love because you waited until it was too late to say anything. You never had a chance because she was already engaged to someone who was her verified True Love via a curse-breaking kiss before you met her. You were friends with her True Love, who was on a desperate quest to find and save her, before you met her, so saying anything would have been a jerk move.

 

As for the other storyline, I'm going to be very annoyed if Hook starts being all dark now that he knows the truth. This whole time, he's been a Dark One without showing the slightest signs of darkness. He resisted all temptation to join Emma in darkness, defended Rumple to her, managed to have a reasonable conversation with Rumple, showed remorse for his past bad deeds, and was willing to free Zelena rather than let Emma put her darkness in her. Why would knowing what he is make any difference? You'd think him not knowing would have been the greater danger because he wouldn't have known why he was having darker impulses and wouldn't have known the importance of resisting.

 

If they wanted that wound to be guaranteed fatal, it should have looked a lot worse when they first discovered it. It really did look like a mere scratch, not like something that would kill him if it didn't heal.

[Mari]

although I have to ask, since I fastforwarded through a lot of it, did I miss the gay storyline? Wasn't there suppose to be something between Mulan and Ruby? 

 

No.  Mulan and Red made eye contact a few times, and Red landed on Mulan when she was dewolfed, but there was nothing that couldn't be completely platonic.  If this was the big girl/girl romance, it was decidedly nonromancey.  They decided to go on a quest or something together at the end of the episode, but since both of them have done that before without romance being involved, that doesn't really mean anything.

 

There wasn't much subtext, let alone text.

[YaddaYadda]

Well, gee, Merida has her validation and confidence now.  Yay.

Maybe she can go away now. But nope, no such luck since she's in the promo for 5x10. There's just 2 new episodes left! I might cry a little.

 

I don't even know where to start. And I don't understand how the hell the sword or the dagger work anymore.

 

Operation Light Swan...the house Hook chose for them to build their future, the spark being lighted reminded me of Emma finding her magic again in 3x22. Also, Arthur, you little shit! I don't even know if I love you, or hate you.

 

I just need to sleep on this.

[KingOfHearts]

 

No, I think it's totally playing Zelena.

In that whole scene I thought something had to be for show. I was seriously thinking one of them was fake - either Emma, Zelena or Hook. There was something off about Emma confronting Regina, Snow and Charming outside only to come back in or Zelena walking outside to find the Dreamcatchers, only to come back in. What does she even care? Wouldn't she want to make a beeline back to her newborn daughter?

 

There wasn't much subtext, let alone text.

This. I thought maybe Mulan and Red were going to already be together or something. A&E promised to explore an LGBT relationship without actually exploring it. Not that I was necessarily expecting them to kiss passionately, but like you said... there was absolutely nothing.

 

As for the other storyline, I'm going to be very annoyed if Hook starts being all dark now that he knows the truth.

 

According to the promo, it looks like it. I guess it makes sense now why she couldn't tell him - because he would begin transforming into the Dark Two. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Agreed. It's going to get really confusing discussing two completely different story themes in one thread. Mods, can we make this happen please? 

They can't, already asked much earlier today. Something with board rules when 2 episodes air the same night.