S31.E08: You Call, We Haul

[lilabennet]

I think the work Tasha did on Angkor was brilliant.  But, it doesn't matter because it took place pre-merge.  There will only be 2 people on the jury who were witness to her work on Angkor and one of them thinks that he was the mastermind and the other thinks that she was making all the moves.  She is going to need to be more active going forward in order to win.

[LanceM]

By all accounts Abi essentially offered herself up to Tasha and Andrew on a silver plate once they hit that beach as she really didn't like Peih Gee and Woo. So I am not actually sure how hard Tasha had to work for that at all.  

[ProfCrash]

By all accounts Abi essentially offered herself up to Tasha and Andrew on a silver plate once they hit that beach as she really didn't like Peih Gee and Woo. So I am not actually sure how hard Tasha had to work for that at all.

That is how I see it. Abi didn't want to work with Peih Gee, Woo or Jeff. Tasha pkacated Abi but didn't have to work hard. It was handed to her.

[ProfCrash]

She did nothing. Abi handed Tasha her vote. Jeff was gone because he couldn't walk. She did nothing.

[pennben]

I don't think it took a master strategist to work the cracks on the Ankor tribe.  Similarly I don't think it is fair to say Tasha did "nothing".

[KimberStormer]

Personally I think Tasha did a great job there, and I even must give some credit to Andrew Savage.  It's true the TaKeos were fracturing.  But Tasha took full advantage and played everything very well.  First of all, she and Savage very wisely stayed super-tight.  They were a bloc, not independent actors, whereas the TaKeos didn't stay unified.  That means that rather than four to two, it was two to one to one to one to one.  Second, irritating as it may have been to me, her scene at the challenge put Varner on the defensive and off his game, when he was probably the only one who could have kept the TaKeos in line together--close with Peih-Gee, friendly with Abi, knowing he needed Woo.  Varner instead ended up playing "anyone but me" scaredy-cat, which made no rational sense.  Finally, they had a choice to work with Abi or with Peih-Gee.  Remember, Peih-Gee came to them saying "I want to vote out Abi because I don't like how she talks to me."  Had they gone with that, the resulting PG-Varner-Woo trio would probably have regrouped to stay strong and get rid of them.  Instead, they went to Abi and told her about the plan, and got PG voted out instead.  Abi was clearly not going to work with Woo, so the remaining three TaKeos were not a threat anymore.  Really, a textbook dismantling of the majority, it should be taught in Survivor Class.

[SourK]

I second what everyone's already said: surprise turnarounds like this are why I watch Survivor and it was really satisfying to see.

 

I don't remember Savage from Pearl islands -- probably because I was focussed on hating Rupert -- but he lost me this very episode when he said it was disgusting for Stephen to talk about blindsiding someone in their alliance. I've been trying to figure out why it bugged me so much and the best I can come up with is that I like players who can compartmentalize the game better than that -- people who understand that it's a competition and other people might win, and they don't take it personally or act like jerks just for the hell of it. People who can't compartmentalize the game often go down a road where they convince themselves that anyone they vote for deserves it for being a bad person, or that anyone who makes them feel anxious is doing something morally wrong. That was actually why Rupert drove me crazy way back when, ironically enough.

 

I liked Ciera a lot in her first season, and I think she's partly beind sincere when she keeps yelling at everyone to play to win, but I think she also keeps going back to that because it was a talking point that got her a lot of respect from viewers and Jeff Probst in her first season. I think she saw it as a safe way to win an argument for a while, but we could see her rolling it back even in this episode, where she started to admit that the people at the top of the alliance obviously were playing to win already and that's why they didn't want to disrupt things. I think she's right in a way that the people on the bottom of the alliance could be trying harder to get to the top, but she's approaching it the wrong way by criticizing how they're playing.

 

Looking back on it, I seem to remember a similar incident in her original season where she overplayed her hand rhetorically and said something that ended up alienating the person she was trying to convince because it sounded condescending.

[KimberStormer]

It occurs to me that putting people off-balance with a big scene, like Tasha did to Varner, is exactly what Kass and Ciera were attempting to do last week.  Worked for Tasha, not for them.  There are reasons for that, and you can say they executed it poorly (I would say so), but Tasha's success shows that the idea is sound.

Edited November 14, 2015 by KimberStormer

[kikaha]

I agree with everything KimberStormer said a few posts above.  I also think managing Abi then was a full-time job that required the patience of Job.  Tasha did that masterfully.

[himela]

I listened to Rob's interview with Savage and he justified his decision of last week to suggest Ciera as the person they'd tell Spencer was going to be voted out like this: that Spencer and Wiggles had gone to take water and they only had 10 minutes so they decided to follow Kass's will from the start of the game to boot Spencer so they agreed on that, then Spencer and Wiggles were coming back so he just decided in a second to throw out Ciera's name. Such a noob mistake while he could just suggest his own name or suggest nobody's name, Spencer knew already he was going to get voted out that tribal council, no need to lie to him any more than needed. This fast decision of his sealed his fate as it seemed cause had that not happened the outcome would be different; Kass, Ciera and Abi would be tight with Savage, Spencer would be gone and things after merge would be very different.

 

Maybe stupid question but I can't figure this out. There is a capture of a scene when Jenn played her idol last year and when she did Joe whispered "Savage". Why did he say that?

 

http://parade.com/436537/joe-savage/

 

[Xcptnl]

Did he just mean savage game play?

[BigRedCheese]

 

Did he just mean savage game play?

 

That would be my guess.

[Kromm]

Did Kass flip off a certain person when she came out or the group as a whole? Keeping it classy Kass.

I've always thought they gave the jurors pretty strict instructions to not signal or interact with the "live" players, but trust in Kass to ignore that and do whatever the fuck she wanted to.

[peachmangosteen]

They do have those rules, but the jurors rarely follow them. I believe it's a rule for them not to talk during TCs but they always do anyway. All the rules on this show are pretty lax and if Production decides something that broke the rules is good tv then they don't give a fuck about the rules anymore.

[needschocolate]

I loved seeing that too. Kimmi was clapping and appreciated the gameplay. Even Tasha was smiling. They are players but they are fans too, and I appreciate that these people can appreciate a great move when they see one.

 

At least from what I remember, this season so far has less people taking things personally compared to other seasons. I remember when Woo and Varner were pleading their case with Abi, no one got personal about it, and the arguments of why they should stay over the other were the merits of each other by being on camp, not using stuff such as this is my lifelong dream, please I'm gonna die if I go, etc. And when Woo and Varner finished their arguments, they even shook each other's hands as if to say, nothing personal, may the best man stay.

 

Yes, I agree with you, but the counterpoint to that is Kass and Andrew flipping the bird.  Andrew took it very personally, LOL.

 

Hell, Andrew flipped the bird at the damn challenge when he lost. He just strikes me as an immature little boy with a bad temper. Other than him, though, I think I agree that people have been appreciating moves and not getting too worked up about stuff. 

 

I agree that this season is filled with players who realize that this is a game and don't take things personally.  Kass and Savage both had their "personally" moments.  I think Kass was able to not get personal at times, like when she clued Spencer in and saved him.  Savage tends to take things more personally.  However, the big exception to the "not taking things personally" theme is Abi, who seems to take everything personally.  Thinking back to the early episodes this season, when we were forced to listen to Abi, I can't think of anything she didn't take personally.  

 

Now she is getting so little screen time, I keep forgetting she is there - and that is the way I like it.  

[bikebrh]

Savage and Kass could practically be grandparents.

Kass is only 42. Same age as Kimmi.

Just sayin, if you and your kid have children at a sufficiently young age, you can be a grandmother by your early thirties, and a great-grandmother by 50.

[Oscirus]

After much consideration, I'm starting to realize that Jeremy's in a lot of danger this week. With Savage gone,  Joe and Stephen willing to work with the girls, I'd assume Jeremy becomes their number one target. Yea he's in the majority at the moment, but having a tree person bloc targeting could be dangerous in a situation where six votes are needed.

[ozlsn]

If Kelly-With-One-E is hated by the producers for a lack of soundbites, Keith has to be a close second. It's great that he's doing more than spitting, but driving the tuk-tuk must have left Burnett and Co. out of breath. What if he flipped it over? Huge disaster, and Probst would have no choice but to track down every single person who voted him into the game and beaten them up.

 

 

I kept imagining production chasing them down the beach going "stop! stop! our insurance doesn't cover this!!!"

 

Plus Andrew is an asshole so I think that was just enjoyable for the ladies :) I am so glad he's gone. Still not sure if the editors were making fun of him this whole time or actually liked him...

And it doesn't help that they keep showing Stephen as so whiny. When he made the Ahab/Moby Dick comparison, I thought to myself, Did that work out for Ahab?! I thought you liked to learn from literature!!

 

The thing that stood out fo me about Andrew was at the merge when he said something like "I'm finally back with my Bayon brothers."  I think he was completely dismissive of pretty much all the women there - yes, he worked with Tasha but I don't think she was in his final three, no matter what she thought.

 

I thought the same thing about Ahab - Stephen will drown (metaphorically speaking) trying to get Joe out.

 

What I don't understand is why Kimmi is not considered a core 5 with those guys. She is original Bayon, and has played with Jeremy and Fishbach the entire time, correct? It all of a sudden appears as if she's not tight with them anymore. Did I miss something?

 

I wondered that too.  That is, when I remember she's there.  The upside of Andrew being gone is hopefully we might get to see some more of the other players? 

Abi has flipped on every alliance she is in and pisses people off by breathing at this point. <snip>

 

Unless that goat is Abi. But I think she is pissing people off enough on the beach that she won't make it to the end because people don't want to deal with her.

 

That made me lol.  It's not so much the breathing part though I think as the talking part that goes with it.  I kind of hope she gets booted soon, although I'm also enjoying not having her featured in the editing.

 

Has any Survivor ever asked him to be quiet?  I seem to remember Penner giving Probst some lip once, but I would love to see a contestant who is desperately trying to concentrate ask Jeff to please keep his running commentary to himself.  I've always thought this was Probst's way of getting into their heads, but if I'm trying to balance or concentrate, and Jeff Probst announces that I'm starting to fall/slip/move, I'm probably going to overcorrect myself and drop out.  I'm always impressed by those who seem to be able to completely block out his voice.

 

Yeah same.  Probst would drive me nuts if I were trying to focus.

 

I have developed a major girl crush on Wentworth.  She's quite awesome.

 

As Spencer said, what Cierra was saying is true.  I don't think she's telling people how to play but rather trying to drum more people up for her to play with. I can't fault her for that.

 

I get that she's frustrated, but I still don't think she's going to drum up more support by basically haranguing people at tribal council.  If she can't manage it in small group conversations at camp I doubt anyone's going to have a Road to Damascas conversion at tribal without some extremely new and shocking information being inadvertently revealed by someone.

 

And I wish they'd show us the schoolyard picks again, and do the challenge where you get to chop other people's ropes.  This group should be savvy enough not to reveal their alliances... but stranger things have happened.

[Kromm]

Yeah same.  Probst would drive me nuts if I were trying to focus.

Probst is an asshole, plain and simple. That said it's not an unaware kind of assholery. He knows he's disturbing people and messing up their game.

[SVNBob]

From the first page:

So, so satisfying to see all those votes for Wentworth and to realize that girlfriend had read the room correctly at just the right moment.

She didn't just read the room right (even with being tipped off), she was actively drawing their fire, despite Ciera doing the same. When Kelley called out the "mystery person" in the alliance (Joe) that wanted to work with the 3 women, she specifically said that that person came to her. Not the three of them; her.   She was trying to cement in their minds that the potential "traitor" among them had only one link to the triad; her. So by eliminating her, they'd also cut off a budding counter-alliance. Kelley wanted to be absolutely sure she was getting all 9 of their votes, so that only the 3 on her side would count.

 

Best idol play since Parvati.

This I'll concur with. Possibly the best single idol play to date. (Parv's was a double, and still the best in that category).

[Oscirus]

I think you give Kelley too much credit. Yea she knew she was safe and even knew she was the target, but I doubt she was trying to change votes that were pretty much locked in at that point. If anything, that statement about someone coming to her was used to try and create paranoia among the remaining eight.

 

I guess we can all say the girl's alliance is an alliance of four since it was the poison spider that apparently stopped Andrew from splitting up the votes.

[kikaha]

Interesting thought, SVNBob, but like Oscirus, I doubt it impacted play.  By then, Bayon had already chosen its strategy: to load all the votes on Kelley. 

 

Here are the top idol plays IMO:

 

1.  Russell's play early in HvV, to save Parvati.  To me this one is in a league of its own;

 

2.  Parv's double-idol play in HvV, that booted JT.

 

3.  Jenn's play last season. 

 

I loved Kelley's play, and I loved how she found the idol: it required more strategy, risk and creative problem solving than any of the others.  The reason it does not make my top 3 is that Kelley knew, or at least was real sure, that she was the target.  Still, this one probably has the potential to change the season more than Jenn's ended up doing.  So from that standpoint, maybe Kelley's should go to #3 on my list. 

 

3. 

[marys1000]

I (still) believe that Jeremy has been sandbagging challenges.  I also think that it was a huge mistake to send Savage home vs. Jeremy.  While I understand that  Jeremy playing quiet and under the radar may have led the 3 girls to underestimate his being leader of the 8 alliance (9?) it still doesn't make any sense to me. 

Go for the biggest threat - Savage is good but not as good as Joe and Jeremy in challenges.  Not as likeable as either and so a social threat at final. Not to mention Savages is vindictive as hell so a jury threat.   Joe wins immunity - your next target is Jeremy.  To vote out Savage is an emotional move and emotional moves will send you home within a couple of TC's. 

 

I also think along the same lines as someone mentioned above "show me how X, Y Z are playing a good game".   Lucking into the numbers, or even strategizing your way into the numbers and then sitting pat is sort of a mediocre move.  In an alliance of 8 or 9 with 3 votes to go all you have to do is sit there.  Till you are 8 or 7 or 6 and hope you can save yourself or you get lucky.  Its sort of boring and not great game play.  Its safe and hopefull.  That's what everyone on the major alliance is doing.  Tasha, Spencer, everyone.  Yawn.  Not so hard.  It would be nice to see if/how people are trying to move up the ranks within the alliance vs. just who is going to get booted next.

 

P.S. I sort of love Keith.  Aren't he and Jeremy both firefighters?  Would that give them some sort of bond?

Edited November 16, 2015 by marys1000

[cherrypj]

I (still) believe that Jeremy has been sandbagging challenges.

...

P.S. I sort of love Keith.  Aren't he and Jeremy both firefighters?  Would that give them some sort of bond?

 

I believe it too! He just doesn't win immunity. It felt like he was holding back in SJDS too (where he and Keith played together).

[ProfCrash]

I could have sworn Jeremy said he was tossing challenges so as to reduce the target on his back. It is possible that was my interpretation of his whole I did not work out as much so I wouldn't stand out when I hit the beach line. Jeremy does far more in the reward challenges then he does in the individual immunity challenges. You would have to work hard to convince me that Jeremy, a fire fighter, did not have better muscle control in order to last far longer in the two challenges that have been held.

 

Keith is a firefighter. They tried for an alliance based on that in SJDS but Keith is about as strategic as the monkeys they keep showing in their nature shots. Actually, the monkeys might play a more strategic game if they were cast. Keith flat out said in tribal that he knew Jeremy was in a different alliance or something and Jeremy asked Keith if he had heard of sub-alliances. Keith's facial expression made it clear that he had no clue what a sub-alliance might be and his ability to work with Jeremy went up in smoke.

[Zuleikha]

I'm guessing at least Spencer and possibly Joe have a plan besides continue to let group 1 call the shots until they go out 4th-8th.

I can buy it of Joe, but I don't buy it of Spencer. Spencer was actively working with Jeremy to switch the target from Stephen to Wentworth. That means Spencer doesn't realize Stephen going advances Spencer's position in the hierarchy (because Spencer gets one person closer to Jeremy), but more importantly means Spencer loses his best connection to the outsider to pull in a suballiance. With Wentworth gone, who are Spencer's options? Kimmi, who seems very loyal to Jeremy? Keith, who doesn't like to strategize and has no working relationship with Spencer? Joe, with whom he has no working relationship? Wigles, who also doesn't seem to want to strategize? 

 

Ciera and Abi are both self-interested enough that I'm not ruling Spencer out. I don't think it's impossible that he could pull people in based on rational self-interest. But I don't see Spencer laying the ground work for it, or even being very sensitive to the other relationships at play.

 

By contrast, we know Joe has been working with Kelley/Ciera/Abi and trying to keep that relationship open. Joe and Keith have been together for the whole game. Joe seems to be connecting with Wigles. Joe is aware and nervous about the fact that Stephen is actively targeting him and everyone's watching Joe's immunity victories pile up.

[Hanahope]

Great idol play.  I just love how all season there's constant talk of vote-splitting to protect against an idol that was never an issue, and the one time it really was an issue, they didn't do it. Hahahahaha.  I wonder if Jeremy was keeping any sortof eye out at all the challenges after he got his idol and when he didn't seem anyone appear to go for one, he assumed no one else got one.  He may have never considered that someone had gotten an idol before him.

 

I bit surprised they took out Savage over Jeremy, but Savage seemed a bit more arrogant and while Jeremy seems to be more of the real king, he's defiitely playing very low-key, very smart.  Keep those meat shields and they will go instead of you, just like Savage did.

 

I can sortof see why no one on the 'bottom" of the main alliance wants to switch for now, with so many people, there's just a lot of votes and people to keep track of.  They may be thinking a better time to jump is when there's fewer people to coordinate with, like maybe once they are down to 9 total people and only have to get 5 to go their way.

[KimberStormer]

Here are the top idol plays IMO:

 

1.  Russell's play early in HvV, to save Parvati.  To me this one is in a league of its own;

 

2.  Parv's double-idol play in HvV, that booted JT.

 

3.  Jenn's play last season. 

 

To me, Jenn's was a weak play.  (I love her, but it was.)  It was the right time, but it did nothing but buy her and the No Collars three more days.  This was the problem with idols as concieved, and first used by Gary in Guatemala: it gets you basically nothing but a couple days and another chance at immunity.  (Also, in practice, what winning at Redemption Island gets you.)  That's what I fear from Kelley's idol play this episode.  But luckily the players have been more creative and have done some fun stuff with idols.  Russell's in HvV was better than Jenn's, even if you don't believe he (and Parvati IMO) conned Tyson into voting for Parv, because he and Parvati were able to use it to break Boston Rob's alliance apart.  They picked the right target to bounce it on--Tyson was by many accounts the social glue of that alliance--and they were able to break Jerri off, and with her, Coach.  But a lot of that was really on Rob himself: he was demoralized and unable to effectively regroup to pull Jerri back in.  I guess we'll see if Kelley picked the right target in Savage, and whether Jeremy and Tasha can keep their group together.  Amanda's play in Micronesia is of this sort too: using an idol as an idol, but by that use getting control of the game (getting it back, in her case--Natalie and Alexis were flipping at just the right time to take over, which I love them for, but Amanda (with a little assist from Parvati) got the idol and with it got the game back.

 

I prefer more creative and interesting uses of the idol.  Yul flipping Jonathan is a classic example, somewhat receding into the mists of time by now, but it proves that "never tell anyone you have the idol" is not always the right thing.  Of course, he had the Tyler Perry bullshit idol, so it's somewhat less impressive to me; but still, he saw it as a tool to be used in many ways, not just to get him personally a couple days more.  Another great one for me is JT using Tom's idol to get rid of Cirie, whom he rightly feared.  JT was in good shape for the time being, but (like Cirie herself is famous for) was thinking down the line, saw the threat, and knew there might not be another opportunity to get the job done; so, using a split-vote, someone else's idol, and 2 pawns on the bottom to his advantage, made the move.  Brilliant!  (Have I told you lately how much I fucking love JT's game in HvV?  I will sing his praises forever.)  Natalie's move with Baylor towards the end of SJDS was another--she had nothing to fear at that moment, but she split up Missy and Baylor and made a shamelessly awesome showy move to the jury.

 

But of course I must put Parvati's move at the top.  It's not just that it basically gave her entire alliance immunity--Malcolm did the same in Caramoan and it was a total waste of time, as weak as Jenn's idol play.  It's that she made two possibilities overwhelmingly likely: either she gets to Final 3 (and, absent Russell's taking out Danielle, which is one of the dumbest moves ever played in the history of the game, Parvati wins), or she goes out right then and there.  Go big or go home.  After that she had 5 Villains to 4 Heroes, was sitting in the top 3 of that villain 5, and the bottom two of it, Sandra and Jerri, had very few options.  If they got any Heroes to flip with, it would make a super dangerous final tribal situation, with the Heroes so jingoistic about the tribes and the Villains they flipped on pissed at them.  Their best bet is to somehow get to the end with each other and Russell, and that's a difficult situation to arrange even if Sandra doesn't hate Russell and Jerri so much.  The two of them both got super-lucky that Russell is a moron for the ages, which is the only reason Sandra made it to the end and won.  Of course Survivor is unpredictable, and there are many things that could have happened (and one of them did) but Parvati's move basically wrapped the game up for her at Final 10, which is amazing.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping the aftermath of Kelley's move is more like Russell's than like Jenn's.  We'll see.

[kikaha]

Besides some of the plays Kimber brought up (that I forgot), another inventive and highly effective idol play I overlooked was Tony's.  He leveraged it to pretty well save himself late in the game -- by lying about its special unknown properties, when it in reality was useless.  When that season started I couldn't stand Tony.  By the time it ended, I thought he was one of the best winners I'd ever seen. 

 

Parvati's social/personal game was so good, she convinced the winner of the FIC to take her to finals -- twice. 

[blackwing]

I never minded Andrew that much on Pearl Islands.  I didn't care for the way he decreed that all the guys on his tribe had to strip and do the challenge butt naked just because Osten's underwear wouldn't stay up, and then bullied Skinny Ryan for not complying.  I also didn't care for how he bragged about the size of his pixel blur after he had been booted.  But this episode, I finally saw why he seems to be hated by so many.  Frankly, the man seems like a dick.  Why is it so "disgusting" that Stephen is trying to play the game?  He, like so many other people, seems to have fallen under the golden spell of Joe.  "I love you, I swear on my children's lives that I will never vote for you."  Really?  Andrew is used to getting what he wants in life, and it was nice to see that it didn't happen for him here.

 

Then he flips the bird not once, but twice.  As did Kass.  Do 50 year olds commonly engage in bird flipping?  I would have thought they would have been more mature.  Especially since it's a game.

 

I have no idea why Andrew's alliance didn't split the vote.  There were only three girls on "the bottom".  There were 9 other people supposedly with him.  Why didn't they do 5 for Kelley and 4 for Ciera?  4 is still greater than 3.  You could tell that when the first few votes said Wentworth and she's all whooping and smiling, Cutlass Ciera was still very nervous that her name would appear.  Really really poor strategy.

[Alapaki]

Then he flips the bird not once, but twice.  As did Kass.  Do 50 year olds commonly engage in bird flipping?  I would have thought they would have been more mature.  Especially since it's a game.

I'm depressingly close to 50. And can obviously not speak for Savage. But, when I'm trying to assemble furniture or something, to quote Kramer, I let the expletives fly! And, if it's from IKEA, there is absolutely some bird-flipping involved.

[Hera]

I prefer more creative and interesting uses of the idol.  Yul flipping Jonathan is a classic example, somewhat receding into the mists of time by now, but it proves that "never tell anyone you have the idol" is not always the right thing.

Same here—idols can be great for building alliances—Yau Man and Earl had a very strong bond that centered around Earl taking everyone away from camp while Yau stayed back and looked for the idol. In One World, Kim told Chelsea about her idol and she was no worse off for it. Similarly, Parvati sealed her alliance with Danielle in Heroes vs. Villains by telling her and not Russell about the clue to the hidden immunity idol (which they later found). Parvati also told Amanda about the idol in exchange for information about who the Heroes were voting out. Luckily, Amanda is a terrible liar and Parvati got the information she was looking for anyway.

 

In short, if a player is smart about who s/he tells about the idol, it can help cement alliances. I think what's put so many players and fans off the idea of sharing idols and clues with other players is that there have been a spate of people being forced into alliances they didn't really want to be in by dint of the fact that someone discovered that they had an idol (or a clue) by accident. Lisa tripped Malcolm up in Philippines by discovering his idol while washing his clothes, and just last season, we saw Joe have the idol found out from under him because he was forced to share it with Tyler (because Tyler saw him find it) who then didn't have the presence of mind to lie to Mike about what it said after he caught them reading it. But if a player can control who knows about his/her idol, it can be a very powerful tool for making and keeping alliances. In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who flipped on an ally after finding out said ally had a hidden immunity idol, though I'm sure if someone has, someone on these boards will correct me.

[violet and green]

Then he flips the bird not once, but twice.  As did Kass.  Do 50 year olds commonly engage in bird flipping?  I would have thought they would have been more mature.  Especially since it's a game.

 

Well, three times, actually. He gave the finger to the challenge after his ball dropped off, also. Kass is only 42, but looks older. It was the thing to do, back in the day, to express anger and defiance. Now I guess you tweet a few expletives or veiled threats.

 

It is a bit immature, as is Ciera's eye-rolling demonstrations. I don't take it very seriously. They're tired and emotional, haven't slept well, are hungry, are no doubt aching all over, and they are also providing some dramatic moments for camera footage in a moment of anger; and in Kass's case, I think, beefing up the drama at tribal council in a WWE way.

 

Woo would never flip the bird, though!

[peachmangosteen]

I can kind of see the non-players' strategy if they plan to do something once it's down to 8 or so.   Say the pecking order is something like this:

 

Firm alpha alliance:

Jeremy

Tasha

Stephen

 

Quiet middle:

Kimmi

Kelly

Spencer

Keith

Joe

 

Outs:

Ciera

Abi

Kelley

 

If the middle group would for some reason rather side with the top group than the bottom one for now, ok.

 

The problem I see with this is that once the bottom tier is gone, then the only people in the mid group that have a real shot at being able to take on the J/T/S juggernaut will have lost all the numbers they needed to do it. Kimmi is not going to go against Jeremy/Stephen. Keith and Kelly are too simple and passive, respectively, to do it.

 

Plus, Spencer appears to be doing nothing to try and shore up a vote from Keith/Kelly. It seems like his play is to try to replace Stephen with Jeremy, but that's dumb in a couple ways.

 

Now Joe, I will say he does seem to be maybe doing some stuff, at least with Kelly. But he's also a very passive player and imo at the end of the day he'll just continue to follow Jeremy's lead and just try to IC win his way to the end. I hope I'm wrong about him though since I think at this point he's the only shot I have at seeing Kelley/Ciera get farther/seeing Jeremy not win.

[Oscirus]

If I'm being honest, I thought most of the idol play in Hvv was atrocious.

Despite the fact that it worked, I saw Russell's play as moronic and relying on a one in a million chance that Tyson would needlessly do something really stupid.

Parv's Idol play only served to get Russell's paranoia antenna up which eventually led to his booting her closest ally.

Jt's. I really don't mid Jt's  I always thought it would be awesome to interfere with the other teams dynamic.  Well other then the fact that Russell was on the  Villains tribe. Even if you don't know Russ, you have to know that he was probably dishonest.

 

My fav idol play was probably Amandas in FVF. Sulking, guilt tripping and depressed body language until the reveal came. Don't get why you'd boot an injured Alexis over Natalie but I guess no play is perfect.

 

I do wonder why an alliance with two people from Cagayan would argue against splitting the votes.

 

[green]

I have no idea why Andrew's alliance didn't split the vote.  There were only three girls on "the bottom".  There were 9 other people supposedly with him.  Why didn't they do 5 for Kelley and 4 for Ciera?  4 is still greater than 3.  You could tell that when the first few votes said Wentworth and she's all whooping and smiling, Cutlass Ciera was still very nervous that her name would appear.  Really really poor strategy.

 

It's been brought up in this thread several times.  Someone here (sorry, can't find the original post right now) quoted a tweet by Stephen.  He said they could not completely trust Andrew and Joe on a split vote.  What he didn't say is that he was the one with his stupid (and even before the IC too) "get Joe" crap that drove the wedge in between those two and the rest of the mega-group to the point that people were uneasy over whether they were so estranged that they might flip.  With a split vote, two votes going the other way could send the person in the mega-alliance home.  With everyone voting for one of the bottom three, there was no chance of that. 

 

Of course they didn't think any of them had the hidden idol.  In fact it seems that everyone in that mega-group (except Jeremy who is keeping his mouth closed obviously) thought there were no hidden immunity idols in this game cause they had been looking everywhere for them from day one and never found any.  That's why they thought not spliting the vote was a safe bet.

[kikaha]

Another top-notch idol play: Malcolm in Philippines.  It kept him safe for a number of episodes, and he didn't even have to play it. 

[Skeeter22]

Not only did they not trust each other to split the votes, which really should have been a huge red flag to Joe and Savage, but they thought there was no way the weak, undeserving girls could have an idol. Jeremy has a secret scene where he basically says Kelley doesn't have the balls to grab an idol in the middle of a challenge. At least Stephen had the grace to acknowledge they'd been arrogant in his People blog.

[peachmangosteen]

Jeremy has a secret scene where he basically says Kelley doesn't have the balls to grab an idol in the middle of a challenge.

 

LMAO wow. They really should've shown that during the ep. It's always fun to see people act so stupidly arrogant and get fucked over by their own arrogance so quickly.

 

Also this just makes me want Kelley to outmaneuver Jeremy even more.

 

But the fact that they hid that little tidbit from Jeremy, among other things, has me pretty convinced now that he is the winner. Initially I was thinking Kelley (or Spencer) were better bets, but now I'm thinking Kelley is getting more of the Jenn edit and she'll be gone soon. Sigh.

[marys1000]

The problem I see with this is that once the bottom tier is gone, then the only people in the mid group that have a real shot at being able to take on the J/T/S juggernaut will have lost all the numbers they needed to do it. Kimmi is not going to go against Jeremy/Stephen. Keith and Kelly are too simple and passive, respectively, to do it.

 

Plus, Spencer appears to be doing nothing to try and shore up a vote from Keith/Kelly. It seems like his play is to try to replace Stephen with Jeremy, but that's dumb in a couple ways.

 

Now Joe, I will say he does seem to be maybe doing some stuff, at least with Kelly. But he's also a very passive player and imo at the end of the day he'll just continue to follow Jeremy's lead and just try to IC win his way to the end. I hope I'm wrong about him though since I think at this point he's the only shot I have at seeing Kelley/Ciera get farther/seeing Jeremy not win.

I'm eager to see if this comes to pass.

[Oscirus]

How is that scene Jeremy being arrogant or saying that Kelley doesn't  have the balls to grab an idol during the challenge?  I get disliking Jeremy and all but come on.  I mean yea, he miscalculated but if anything that scene shows he at least acknowledges that it's possible.

[peachmangosteen]

I mean that was pretty bad imo. He was marginalizing Kelley a lot. Talking about how hard it was for him and so he doesn't believe Kelley could've possibly done it. Saying Kelley is 'just a vote.' His words were very marginalizing and arrogant, but his delivery didn't have the kind of OTT annoying arrogance that someone like Andrew or even Stephen have.

 

And they really should've shown that clip. It would've made the idol play even sweeter.

[Skeeter22]

Jeremy is actually one of my favorite players left in the game, but he was pretty patronizing about Kelley's chances of retrieving an idol. The main alliance simply didn't respect any of "the girls" on the bottom.

In Jeremy's defense, he admitted on Twitter that he was an idiot in that confessional. His Twitter also shows he's a massive Pats fan, so -1000 points for that.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Skeeter22

[Oscirus]

That scene really demonstrates how stupid that Joe is playing since he's going along with a vote that's being made to specifically weaken him.  Not only was it "no we won't target that guy targeting you," but also "we're targeting the one person on the bottom we consider to be part of your alliance."

[KimberStormer]

Yes, now don't you feel it's just a little justified for Ciera to be frustrated that her game is dying because he won't make a move to save himself?  That it's a little silly to claim "everyone is playing to win, they're just not playing how you want"?

[Oscirus]

Ok, I will concede that Joe's gameplay would be a bit frustrating if one is at the bottom and he's one of your only lifelines.

[kikaha]

Yes, now don't you feel it's just a little justified for Ciera to be frustrated that her game is dying because he won't make a move to save himself? 

Not really.  She'll do the same thing to him, if he comes to her aid, as soon as she can. 

[violet and green]

Not everyone can think like a gutter rat. Joe is playing his best game, according to his abilities, and soz if that isn't helping elevate the ones you like. Doesn't mean it's poor game play. It's conservative, that's for sure. Time will tell, I guess, but I have never expected big moves from Joe. I think Spencer and him lying low, move-wise, is the best thing for them, for now.

[peachmangosteen]

His Twitter also shows he's a massive Pats fan, so -1000 points for that.

 

Well, there goes my Jeremy hate rearing it's head again!

[willpwr]

I don't think anyone really expects people to play the game just so that their favorites get elevated. There was a lot of talk about making big moves and it's frustrating to get hyped only to not have anything come to fruition. If Joe had stepped up the way he was talking about then his biggest supporter would still be there. If Joe hadn't run his mouth to Ciera and Kelley then his biggest supporter would be there but it looks like Joe is trying to be everything to everyone and he needs to make a stand instead of being so wishy washy. And as a Jeremy fan, his video was condescending, to say he didn't think Kelley had an idol because in his case, first he had to find a clue and then get the nerve to get it in front of 18 other people and how he couldn't picture her doing that is pretty messed up and I'd think that regardless of who it was said about because imho it implies the feeling of superiority when someone says they can't picture someone else doing what they did.

All in all it was some sloppy and arrogant gameplay which is why it was so satisfying to see the blindside.