S09.E08: The Zygon Inversion

[BizBuzz]

Shapeshifting Zygons are everywhere in the UK, and there is no way of knowing who to trust. With UNIT neutralised, only the Doctor stands in their way. But how do you stop a war? And what can the Doctor do to save his friends?

[Triskan]

Wooow, those teased "10 minutes of Capaldi being awesome" were not lies ! 

 

What an epic scene it was !

[ApathyMonger]

Yeah, that was good. Lots of intense conversation scenes this season, and Capaldi's very good at them.

 

The line about "the longest month of my life" (or however he phrased it) seems to back up the theory that The Doctor has seen Clara die already.

[HauntedBathroom]

Go Capaldi! I hate to sound terribly 80's here, but he ruled!!!

[tessaray]

Jenna was great as evil Clara.  And we have 2 Osgoods again! 

[John Potts]

Loved it! Glad to see that Kate Stewart has learned from her father (even if she realises that the Doctor wouldn't approve) that sometimes, "Five rounds rapid!" really does provide the solution (if not perhaps an optimal one). Loved Osgood as well, whichever one she was (I'm guessing she's the Zygon one - so now she's TWO Zygons). Also liked the callbacks to Day of the Doctor with the Moment, although it was perhaps inevitable that the Big Bomb would do nothing. I liked Clara fighting back against her captivity, even if it did (I think) contradict previous continuity. But hey, if it makes for a better episode, I'm relatively happy!

[penguinnj]

Capaldi was fantastic!  He brings all of Tennant's intensity without being as shouty- and I love 10- but tonight's episode  is why I believe 12 may be the best doctor ever. 10 out of 10 performance

 

That said- I'm sorry but the story bothered me.  Kate is not allowed to kill million to save the lives of billions, but Bonnie is allowed to kill 100s with basically no consequences and is forgiven in the bargain???  I get that to stop a circle of violence, there has to be forgiveness and growing, but apparently this has happened 15 times, so what exactly is being learned?  I guess YMMV- I can "forgive" Missy for the dead snipers in the square because she has't turned "good" and didn't pretend to, but this just leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.  One- albeit fantastic- speech from the doctor and we are to forget the UNIT soldiers, the pilot of the president plane, the new science gal at UNIT?  And not just forget them but count on that person/zygon to patrol the peace?  My head is spinning, but I don't think this will be a favorite for me.

Edited November 8, 2015 by penguinnj

[ApathyMonger]

Loved Osgood as well, whichever one she was (I'm guessing she's the Zygon one - so now she's TWO Zygons).

 

Would Bonnie have been able to transform into Osgood if Osgood was just a Zygon? They established that the Zygon Osgood can stay in human form if Human Osgood was dead, but would another Zygon be able to take that form after?

[John Potts]

ApathyMonger Would Bonnie have been able to transform into Osgood if Osgood was just a Zygon?

 

 

It seems that the Zygon transformation isn't just a "glamour" but a complete physical transformation (if the old guy Zygon!Clara devolving back into his "true" form is indicative). Thus, I would say they should be able to copy somebody, even if they're not the original (they'd only need the original alive if they wanted to ransack their mind for info). Of course, The Grand Moff is perfectly welcome to state the opposite is true.

 

The only real problem I had was the fact that I don't think I've ever seen London so empty!

[alrightokay]

Capaldi was fantastic!  He brings all of Tennant's intensity without being as shouty- and I love 10- but tonight's episode  is why I believe 12 may be the best doctor ever. 10 out of 10 performance

 

That said- I'm sorry but the story bothered me.  Kate is not allowed to kill million to save the lives of billions, but Bonnie is allowed to kill 100s with basically no consequences and is forgiven in the bargain???  I get that to stop a circle of violence, there has to be forgiveness and growing, but apparently this has happened 15 times, so what exactly is being learned?  I guess YMMV- I can "forgive" Missy for the dead snipers in the square because she has't turned "good" and didn't pretend to, but this just leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.  One- albeit fantastic- speech from the doctor and we are to forget the UNIT soldiers, the pilot of the president plane, the new science gal at UNIT?  And not just forget them but count on that person/zygon to patrol the peace?  My head is spinning, but I don't think this will be a favorite for me.

 

I agree with your reservations about this episode.  I don't think the story really held together; the acting saved it in the end.  To be honest, I liked Capaldi's quieter moments in the episode more than I liked the big speech itself (as good as it was).  For instance, I loved the calm, nonchalant way he said, "Thanks," when Osgood said that if she were invading the world, she'd kill the Doctor first.  Or how, when she noted that this was the first time she'd seen him smile, he said, "Dazzling, isn't it?"  And his pensiveness when Clara asked how it was to think that she was dead--that moment seemed to "show" more than "tell," while the big speech was a lot of "telling."  But if the big speech is what will finally win over those viewers who've been ambivalent about Capaldi, then so be it, because he definitely deserves the love (and has deserved it since S8).

[elle]

I think Jenna really enjoyed this episode, getting a chance to do something different.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I agree with your reservations about this episode.  I don't think the story really held together; the acting saved it in the end.

 

I wasn't terribly thrilled with the story either -- plus something just seemed off with Osgood, she didn't seem to be acting the way she normally does.

 

Wouldn't the plane of the President of the World have anti-missile defenses ?  It's run by UNIT after all.  I'm still curious how the first heat-seeking missile was defeated by moving the plane slightly to the left (what is this -- the first Star Wars movie ?  Because that's some maneuvering).

 

What was the whole point of sending Kate to New Mexico ?  Because that just seemed to be a big waste of time and really contributed nothing to the story -- except for hammering home the whole 'Truth or Consequences' idea. I'm just surprised that Bob Barker didn't show up at some point (since he used to host the TV show 'Truth or Consequences' at one point).

 

How come The Doctor never tried the whole 'war is bad, people die' schtick on the Daleks or the Cybermen or any other enemy before now if he is so wracked with guilt about what he has done in the past ?

[Morrigan2575]

I adore Osgood. I'm going to assume that Osgood was human all along and that Bonnie is the new Zygone Osgood.

Capaldi's a great actor and that was a powerful scene but I felt the whole story was subpar.

[Lantern7]

I feel like I need somebody to walk me through the story. So there were two Osgood boxes, and both were bluffs? And there are two Osgoods again? So what .. . the survivor was human, and a new Zygon fills in? I don't get it.

 

I liked the Doctor monologuing, especially with his American Game Show Emcee voice. More than balances out how Clara was so special that she could partially overcome her double's machinations.

[elle]

 

How come The Doctor never tried the whole 'war is bad, people die' schtick on the Daleks or the Cybermen or any other enemy before now if he is so wracked with guilt about what he has done in the past ?

Because the Daleks are Daleks and the Cybermen, well thanks to Missy they don't worry about that part anymore.

 

I really got a "Nine" vibe during the confrontation in the Dark Archive.  I could just imagine Eccelston playing it the same way, even to the "American" accent that the Doctor suddenly had when he was went into game show host mode.

[benteen]

I thought it was alright.  Capaldi was definitely great in that scene when he talked about what he did during the Time War and Jenna Coleman makes a strong bad guy.  While the Osgood Box being a fake is clever, it’s another example of the Doctor defeating someone before the conflict begins and that does rob the show of any real danger.  I also had a problem with Bonnie going unpunished, considering she murdered dozens of Unit personnel and her own people.  Truth and no Consequences?

 

Kate was more clever in this one and I don’t know why the Doctor got pissy about her having to put down that Zygon in NM.  Even when the Brigadier was portrayed as bumbling, he was never as inept as Kate is at running things.

Edited November 8, 2015 by benteen

[Anisky]

Huh, I guess I'm the only one who didn't really like the big speech. It felt very heavy-handed and anvil-y to me. 

[Morrigan2575]

Because the Daleks are Daleks and the Cybermen, well thanks to Missy they don't worry about that part anymore.

I really got a "Nine" vibe during the confrontation in the Dark Archive. I could just imagine Eccelston playing it the same way, even to the "American" accent that the Doctor suddenly had when he was went into game show host mode.

He did remind me of Nine in that scene. All the guilt and angst over killing his entire race (excepisode he didn't)

[clack]

The way that Clara and Bonnie interfaced with each other through Clara's hallucinating subconscious was cool.

Not so cool : Bonnie murders hundreds, humans and Zygons both, but the Doctor gives her a speech, and she totally reforms? And not only reforms, but becomes an Osgood, smugly grinning and joking with the Doctor -- who is now a professed "fan" -- and seemingly without remorse for all the death she's caused.

[sluggish neko]

Huh, I guess I'm the only one who didn't really like the big speech. It felt very heavy-handed and anvil-y to me. 

Not the only one. I didn't like it either. I kept hoping one of the girls would just push a button to make him stop with the whole "War is bad" speechifying. I'm disappointed neither one did-- especially when the boxes were empty. We could have arrived at that conclusion a lot earlier and saved time. Plus, I just didn't buy that his argument convinced Bonnie after all she went through to get to the box in the first place.

 

Still, the dual boxes and buttons were a clever ruse. I'll give the Doctor that.

[GenieinTX]

BBC America has uploaded the speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBv_lwQWxoM

 

I thought that was fantasitic.  I really really love Osgood.  It doesn't matter to her which is human and which is Zygon.  (I think we have to assume Missy killed the first Zygon one and again they are one human and one zygon).  I didn't quite buy Bonnie immediately turning into Oszygon, but hey, it's the show.

 

Capaldi, wow, he was incredible.  Yes, in the big speech, but also the small moments when it was obvious he was mourning Clara.  I hate Clara, but I buy Capaldi's emotion for her.

[benteen]

Not the only one. I didn't like it either. I kept hoping one of the girls would just push a button to make him stop with the whole "War is bad" speechifying. I'm disappointed neither one did-- especially when the boxes were empty. We could have arrived at that conclusion a lot earlier and saved time. Plus, I just didn't buy that his argument convinced Bonnie after all she went through to get to the box in the first place.

 

Still, the dual boxes and buttons were a clever ruse. I'll give the Doctor that.

 

I kept hoping Kate would put a bullet between Bonnie’s eyes.

[elle]

He did remind me of Nine in that scene. All the guilt and angst over killing his entire race (excepisode he didn't)

Exactly.  On the one hand, it was nice to see a call back to Nine.  On the other hand, I did wonder if the Doctor still kept all the guilt of destroying everyone even though he did not.  I do think that there were things that were done by the War Doctor that still haunt the doctors today.

[benteen]

Right.  He's probably remembering other things he did during the war.

 

You know, back in Classic Who the Doctor opposed executing the Master but did support locking him up.  It seems now no matter how serious your crimes are, the Twelfth Doctor will let you get off scot free.  Especially if you’re “sorry” about it in the end.  It’s this kind of behavior by the Doctor that infuriates me.

 

Forgot to mention but this was a great line…

 

“I’m over 2,000 years old. I’m old enough to be your messiah!”

Edited November 8, 2015 by benteen

[rainbowrockgal]

Did anyone else notice that the helmet that "killed" Ashildra was in the illuminated nitch behind the Dr during his 10 minute speech? Is that foreshadowing something?

[MarkHB]

Did anyone else notice that the helmet that "killed" Ashildra was in the illuminated nitch behind the Dr during his 10 minute speech? Is that foreshadowing something?

Great catch!

 

And someone else mentioned it, but I have to say that the "Five rounds rapid!" mention warmed my old-school heart.

 

Also: which Doctor was the second Osgood cosplaying as at the end, with the paisley scarf or whatever it was?  Seven?  The question marks on the collars (as seen throughout the episode) would be Five.

 

Also, regarding what we have for Osgoods, in the "Inside Look" Ingrid Oliver

effectively said that there was one human and one Zygon Osgood, so I have to assume that the human was with them throughout the episode until the very end.

[tessaray]

I liked the Doctor monologuing, especially with his American Game Show Emcee voice. More than balances out how Clara was so special that she could partially overcome her double's machinations.

 

This seemed to me more like a call back to Asylum of the Daleks, with Oswin fighting against becoming a Dalek - especially with the recreation of a normal environment in her mind.  

[AudienceofOne]

I enjoyed this two-parter a great deal. It felt like Classic Who and the two mains got to do some actual acting and that was good. The premise of the episode didn't make any sense but I can barely think of a Moffatt era episode that did so, whatever. It made more sense than three quarters of last season.

[John Potts]

Have to add one other thing I liked - where Osgood is talking with The Doctor at the beginning (when she mentions that "If I was invading Earth, I'd shoot you first - twelve times if necessary!") when she comments that "You must like Earth - you've visited so many times" and he replies "I've been kidnapped so many times, doesn't mean I like that" because that's true too!

 

OttoDBusdriver Wouldn't the plane of the President of the World have anti-missile defenses ?  It's run by UNIT after all

 

I have to admit, I thought that too. Air Force One (at least in the film) does, you'd think World Force One would as well.

[Occasional Hope]

I feel Moffatt is less interested inwhether it makes sense, than whether it has some kind of resonance or message, like this week's unspoken analogies with refugees and minorities and terrrorism.  Is it a coincidence that the Zygon base was in Somethingstan (even if it looked like the Alps)?

[clack]

I didn't quite catch what Kate's memory wipe entailed. Does she still remember that a Zygon rebel group tried to take over the world, killing a bunch of UNIT soldiers in the process?

What does UNIT, as an organization, know about the Zygon rebellion? If the do know, are they ok with letting shape-shifting murderers continue to blend in, unsupervised, among the general population? And if they don't know, won't there be an internal crisis when they realize that a good proportion of their elite fighting force members have disappeared off the face of the earth?

[Llywela]

God, that was horrible.

 

I think I might have just broken up with the current show. :(

[Pattycake2]

Glad the Osgoods are back.  Stop using close ups on Capaldi when he is shouting and spitting.  Really, I had to look away.  Thought this episode was inferior to the first.

[clack]

Another thing, if Bonnie tells the rebels to stand down, does everyone automatically obey? There were no actual political reasons for revolting, the rebels were just going along with whatever Bonnie said? When she said she's now ok with the status quo, all the other rebels say great, whatever?

And didn't the rebels assassinate the former Zygon leaders? Are the rest of the Zygons going to just let bygones be bygones?

In Moffat's world, all that is needed is for an ISIS leader to be given a good talking to, be told he's forgiven, and then all the fighters can go home and be nice.

[Primetimer]

The Doctor's arrangement for human/Zygon peace leaves credulity in pieces.

Read the story

[Llywela]

Another thing, if Bonnie tells the rebels to stand down, does everyone automatically obey? There were no actual political reasons for revolting, the rebels were just going along with whatever Bonnie said? When she said she's now ok with the status quo, all the other rebels say great, whatever?

And didn't the rebels assassinate the former Zygon leaders? Are the rest of the Zygons going to just let bygones be bygones?

In Moffat's world, all that is needed is for an ISIS leader to be given a good talking to, be told he's forgiven, and then all the fighters can go home and be nice.

Plus...I may be misremembering, because I watched the episode first time round in a room full of noisy family members, and then when I rewatched in peace and quiet, I got as far as the Doctor's first stab at the horrible faux-American game show voice and had to switch off, but didn't the Doctor say they'd already gone through this routine numerous times since the Zygons were allowed to settle? And it's only been a couple of years, at the most. If this keeps happening, surely that's a sign that it doesn't work.

 

Stupid plot. Horrible episode.

 

I'm still angry about the Harry reference. I hadn't forgiven the show for turning the Brigadier into a Cyberman, and coming on top of that, this broke me.

[Morrigan2575]

I believe he said 15 times. So, a Zygone rebellion has happened 15 in the past 2-3 years but it's all OK now?

I really do think this was a weak episode that seemed to only exist for the big Capaldi/Twelve speech at the end.

[pcta]

It did have a classic Who vibe.

I have no problem with the forgiveness. It really is the essential Christian forgiveness. Next to impossible to do - but the right thing to not perpetuate hate. It is the truth and reconciliation process.

[alrightokay]

I believe he said 15 times. So, a Zygone rebellion has happened 15 in the past 2-3 years but it's all OK now?

I really do think this was a weak episode that seemed to only exist for the big Capaldi/Twelve speech at the end.

 

Right--that's really troubling, if that means that even more people have died than we saw in this one, final rebellion.  The only way I can reconcile this with the Doctor's motto that he "saves people" (from "The Girl Who Died") is that saving the 7 billion humans and 20 million Zygons on Earth is worth the maybe hundreds or thousands that died in these 15 rebellions (still a grim thought, though).  OR, that the 15 times this has happened before only refers to the showdown with the Osgood Boxes--so the Doctor has had this conversation 15 times already as part of this one and only rebellion, wiping everyone's mind each time until this final round, when they get it right.

 

PCTA said: 

I have no problem with the forgiveness. It really is the essential Christian forgiveness. Next to impossible to do - but the right thing to not perpetuate hate. It is the truth and reconciliation process.

 

 

The Doctor did say at one point, "I'm 2000 years old, I'm old enough to be your Messiah."  So the Christian connection is there. 

And I just realized, Jesus was a hybrid--part human, part divine.

Edited November 8, 2015 by alrightokay

[diggle]

Only quibble with the mostly spot on review/recap is that the Doctor would not be "phoning it in" because even though it is a repeat for him, each time it does not work/reach the desired results would add to his angst and frustration.

Also - mind wiping - has he wiped himself to forget that

Clara already died as some are predicting?)

....

[elle]

This seemed to me more like a call back to Asylum of the Daleks, with Oswin fighting against becoming a Dalek - especially with the recreation of a normal environment in her mind.  

I thought it was a call back to that episode too.  One of the reasons Clara is so special.  AND, it will be on today as part of the "The Day of The Daleks" on BBCA.

 

I'm still angry about the Harry reference. I hadn't forgiven the show for turning the Brigadier into a Cyberman, and coming on top of that, this broke me.

Yes, definitely!, and yes.

 

While I was wondering what happened to the one poor Zygon who was outed (what did happen to him?)*, it suddenly dawned on me what happened in TorC?  Did the sheriff-Zygon kill the entire population of Truth or Consequences, NM?   Where was everyone?  Or was it only the Brit-Zygons that were destroyed?  So, where was everyone?

 

And Bonnie not only gets a pass, but a impossibly perfect cover as an Osgood?

 

*sidebar -- If social media was suddenly abuzz with a video as the one in this episode, would you think "oh! alien on Earth!" or "hey, a man in a rubber suit, not very convincing".

[penguinnj]

 

Right--that's really troubling, if that means that even more people have died than we saw in this one, final rebellion.  The only way I can reconcile this with the Doctor's motto that he "saves people" (from "The Girl Who Died") is that saving the 7 billion humans and 20 million Zygons on Earth is worth the maybe hundreds or thousands that died in these 15 rebellions (still a grim thought, though).  OR, that the 15 times this has happened before only refers to the showdown with the Osgood Boxes--so the Doctor has had this conversation 15 times already as part of this one and only rebellion, wiping everyone's mind each time until this final round, when they get it right.

I really hope the second option is true.  If I rewatch this I'm going to go with that interpretation- so thank you :)

The re-setting seems like a callback to The Beast Below- Liz 10 had gotten to that room lots of times and then chose to forget.  What I like there is that at least she- of her own free will- is chasing to forget, not having the Doctor zap her. 

[Ringthane]

Right--that's really troubling, if that means that even more people have died than we saw in this one, final rebellion.  The only way I can reconcile this with the Doctor's motto that he "saves people" (from "The Girl Who Died") is that saving the 7 billion humans and 20 million Zygons on Earth is worth the maybe hundreds or thousands that died in these 15 rebellions (still a grim thought, though).  OR, that the 15 times this has happened before only refers to the showdown with the Osgood Boxes--so the Doctor has had this conversation 15 times already as part of this one and only rebellion, wiping everyone's mind each time until this final round, when they get it right.

 

PCTA said: 

 

The Doctor did say at one point, "I'm 2000 years old, I'm old enough to be your Messiah."  So the Christian connection is there. 

And I just realized, Jesus was a hybrid--part human, part divine.

 

Oh, no - please don't tell me Moffat's trying to bring back the Cartmel Masterplan.

 

Something I realized while thinking about this episode - the Doctor is really a jerk to Zygons.  How many times since 2005 alone have we heard him say to somebody "I've got a TARDIS - hop on in and I'll find you a planet all your own".  Yet, twice now that we've seen (and apparently at least fourteen more, if the Doctor is to be believed), when it's the Zygons, it's all "Nope, screw you.  You make it work here."  Sure, there are twenty million Zygons to relocate.  But if what this episode is saying is to be believed, most of them want to just live somewhere in peace.  The Doctor should be all over that like bees on honey. 

 

If Twelve has really gone through this fifteen times since the treaty, then either a) he just hates the Zygons, b) he's lying when he says Earth is protected, or c) he's just being a colossal idiot.  None of these make him look very good.

 

Actually, that is kind of the problem with Twelve all along.  He has his moments where you can tell he's really up on things and really quite a few steps ahead of everyone, but a lot of the time, he just really makes a lot of stupid decisions.  This episode is a perfect example.  Sometimes you just want to say to the guy "Come on, you're smarter than this."

 

Edit: speaking of stupid things, did the writer really have Clara type and send a text from a cell phone, without even looking at the screen?  This isn't a computer keyboard, where you can touch type and get the tactile feel of the keys.  You're basically tapping on a piece of glass.  Most people have trouble typing out texts at the best of times, when they can see the screen.  And yet SuperClara can do it without even looking?  How did she even open the messaging app to text in the first place?  For all she knew, she could have been opening Hulu or Angry Birds or something.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Ringthane

[alrightokay]

Edit: speaking of stupid things, did the writer really have Clara type and send a text from a cell phone, without even looking at the screen?  This isn't a computer keyboard, where you can touch type and get the tactile feel of the keys.  You're basically tapping on a piece of glass.  Most people have trouble typing out texts at the best of times, when they can see the screen.  And yet SuperClara can do it without even looking?  How did she even open the messaging app to text in the first place?  For all she knew, she could have been opening Hulu or Angry Birds or something.

 

Heh, Angry Birds would have been appropriate, as many people have compared Capaldi/Twelve to an angry (but adorable) owl (Google Peter Capaldi owl, and you'll see the pics).

[Llywela]

Oh, no - please don't tell me Moffat's trying to bring back the Cartmel Masterplan.

 

Something I realized while thinking about this episode - the Doctor is really a jerk to Zygons.  How many times since 2005 alone have we heard him say to somebody "I've got a TARDIS - hop on in and I'll find you a planet all your own".  Yet, twice now that we've seen (and apparently at least fourteen more, if the Doctor is to be believed), when it's the Zygons, it's all "Nope, screw you.  You make it work here."  Sure, there are twenty million Zygons to relocate.  But if what this episode is saying is to be believed, most of them want to just live somewhere in peace.  The Doctor should be all over that like bees on honey. 

 

If Twelve has really gone through this fifteen times since the treaty, then either a) he just hates the Zygons, b) he's lying when he says Earth is protected, or c) he's just being a colossal idiot.  None of these make him look very good.

 

Actually, that is kind of the problem with Twelve all along.  He has his moments where you can tell he's really up on things and really quite a few steps ahead of everyone, but a lot of the time, he just really makes a lot of stupid decisions.  This episode is a perfect example.  Sometimes you just want to say to the guy "Come on, you're smarter than this."

Oh how I hate the Cartmel masterplan. Moffat comes from the same generation of fans that invented it, though - the generation of fans who adored the show as little boys in the 70s, but then as young adults in the 80s remained fans while simultaneously being hideously embarrassed by both the show and their fandom, and so sought to reinvent the show as 'cooler' and 'edgier' in order to compensate. It was how the Carmel Masterplan was born (but thankfully never came to fruition). It's where the NAs came from. You can see elements of it in RTD's writing. And it comes out most strongly in Moffat's.

 

I think a lot of the problem with this story is that is sends massively mixed messages, largely because it's trying too hard to achieve too many things, most of them contradictory. Which is why the writers probably don't even realise how their throwaway little continuity tie-in completely assassinates the character of a very sweet companion from 40 years ago.

 

speaking of stupid things, did the writer really have Clara type and send a text from a cell phone, without even looking at the screen?  This isn't a computer keyboard, where you can touch type and get the tactile feel of the keys.  You're basically tapping on a piece of glass.  Most people have trouble typing out texts at the best of times, when they can see the screen.  And yet SuperClara can do it without even looking?  How did she even open the messaging app to text in the first place?  For all she knew, she could have been opening Hulu or Angry Birds or something.

Didn't you get the memo? Clara is perfect. She can do anything and everything, without breaking a sweat.

[Latverian Diplomat]

The Doctor's arrangement for human/Zygon peace leaves credulity in pieces.

http://previously.tv/doctor-who/cease-this/"> Read the story

In this bit:

Eventually the Zygon rebel leader Bonnie, in the shape of Clara Oswald, stands with a hand poised over two buttons that, supposedly, will either annihilate London or annihilate every Zygon on Earth. While this would seem like a lose-lose proposition for her, being a Zygon who is currently in London,

 

The full explanation from the Doctor went by pretty fast, so I don't blame you, but you don't have that right. Those are the buttons on the red [Kate] box. The blue [bonnie] box has buttons that are a) reveal all the Zygons--causing the war Bonnie is convinced the Zygons will win or b) Take away the Zygon shifting ability, effectively making them human and ending the Zygon species.

 

I agree that it's still not a perfect symmetry, but it's on much better footing than you seem to think. For people thinking it's tied to a specific current situation. I think the intention was to be more abstract than that. I think it's meant to be a game theoretic take on the causes and costs of war, not exactly the prisoner's dilemma but in that vein. It worked OK but not great for me. The original treaty negotiation where the negotiators didn't know which side they were on so they struck the fairest deal possible was more elegant IMHO. If we see the Zygons again, they might again go for this kind of set up; maybe it's the Zygon story motif now.

 

As an aside, given that Kate was able to kill multiple Zygons with a handgun, I'm not sure why Bonnie is so confident of victory.

 

As far at the 15 times before thing. I have the impression that this was the most dangerous and violent of the past breakdowns (that's why it's an episode and not a footnote). In particular, since it's the Osgood Box, and previously (and now again) there were two Osgoods to facilitate, it's possible that the previous times the "Box method" was used sooner to calm things down before they got quite so bad.

 

Lastly, there were three unrelated occurrences of "Truth or Consequences" (The town, Bonnie's slogan, and the labels on the buttons). I suspect this was meant to just be an intriguing coincidence. But I wonder (perhaps pointlessly) if Bonnie was at one of these "Box(ing) Matches" (Sorry) before, and came away with a very deeply buried memory of the labels that influenced her. Also, it didn't quite work as a slogan, because Bonnie seemed to want both Truth and Consequences -- unmasking of the Zygons and the consequence of war with the humans. I'm left feeling that this  "coincidence" was not quite clever enough to really work.

 

Overall, I agree that it was a problematic story, saved for me by some great performances and the ambition to do something different than just another invasion story.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[Terrafamilia]

Yes, Doctor, it's very easy to forgive someone in someone else's stead. You can certainly forgive Bonnie for trying to kill you by blowing you out of the sky. But on behalf of the pilot, copilot, and anyone else who was on the plane and didn't parachute to safety, not so much.

 

If Bonnie was such a Zygon liberation nut and wanted her people to be able to be themselves rather than go through life masquerading as human, why did she insist on being called 'Bonnie' rather than her Zygon name?

[whoknowswho]

I liked it, for the most part. Although I did say at one point- "oh God, there's two Claras now". 

 

I do have a question though- remember in The Day of the Doctor (I think it was) when they were in the Black Archives- everyone forgets what happened in that room? Is that why they did the same thing 15 times?  Does that explain why Bonnie just gave up and decided to be good- or Osgood? 

[Mabinogia]

The only problem I have with the Doctor’s forgiveness speech is knowing 100% that he would NOT have given it had Clara really died. Then he’d be doing a scorched Earth routine and killing Bonnie himself. He’s a fucking hypocrite when it comes to her and that is a huge part of what makes her character so insufferable. It’s easy to forgive when the people who died aren’t Clara. But, much like the underwater base with the ghosts, he didn’t care when that one woman died but then when Clara’s name came up next on the list he goes into action. The only reason Bonnie gets to walk off into the sunset as an Osgood is because she didn’t really harm a hair on perfect little Clara’s perfect little head. UGH! It’s making me start hating the Doctor, and I don’t want to hate the Doctor. His speech was great, though, as were some of the smaller moments others have mentioned. Capaldi is doing great. It’s just being saddled with St. Clara the Perpetually Perfect that is bringing him down for me.

[benteen]

The Doctor and Clara's relationship is unhealthy and brings out the worst in the Doctor.  And Clara is such an average companion at best.