S04.E05: Haunted

[writersblock51]

tv echo, your post is a thing of beauty and you brought up one solid point after another.  Well done!

 

What I liked about this episode:

- Constantine in both the flashbacks and the present day.  If only because he's Constantine and he stayed in character in both places.  I miss the show! 

- Oliver and Felicity again talking openly, honestly and respectfully to each other.  No sweeping music, no drama, just staying connected in a very realistic and adult way

- Thea being in places that made sense - the campaign office, sparring with Oliver, at 'home' (Laurel's but still).  I also thought the fight scene at the apartment with Sara was very well choreographed and Thea showed quick smarts about how to trick Sara in the stairwell

- Oliver realizing that he can't boss everyone around... on the other hand, he also has more experience than all of them except for Diggle and YES, he should be making much of the decisions for the team

- Diggle and Quentin working together - who knew how good their scenes would be?

- Felicity and Curtis, to an extent

- the good but unheeded advice of the new campaign manager

- Damien - he's just quietly and menacingly evil while being charming and giving surprising solid advice to Quentin about Sara.  Also, the cupcake line cracked me up! Snarky Damien for the win!

- forward movement on the Andy Diggle stuff for Diggle

 

What I didn't like:

- Laurel doing anything

- Yet more retconning of the complicated relationships between the Lances and the Queens, as if fans haven't been watching for 3+ years

- Yet more Tell Not Show stuff

- No one mentioning the blood lust side effect to Constantine, even if he didn't know how to fix it, why didn't anyone ask?

- I could see the stunt double for Matt Ryan in the fight way too obviously... the stunt team seems to be slacking off again

 

What I hated:

- see tv echo's thorough breakdown of the Laurel Problem

- an inordinate amount of screen time dedicated to setting up Legends of Tomorrow.  I want this show to get back to being Arrow, stat

- so far, for the advertised Year of Diggle, we've had paltry amounts

- Oliver, again, being more rusty than he should be in the fight scenes.  I miss S1/S2 Oliver being able to take out multiple bad guys on his own

- Absolutely no consequence for anyone regarding the people Sara killed.  And Laurel is in the DA's office.  I cannot believe the show just moves on from this stuff with nary a whisper

- the attitude Thea and Laurel show Oliver in the lair.  I kinda of get why Diggle is still a bit on edge with Oliver there, in boss mode, but Thea and Laurel ASKED Oliver to come back to help.  They both need to dial back their shitty attitudes.  They are acting petulant and ungrateful.  They need too drop it, now

- Felicity is being dumbed down.  Why can't she and Curtis BOTH be brilliant?  Why is she always going to him and not the other way around? 

- Felicity as the non-working CEO.  Just one shot of her at her desk, being interrupted by Curtis or someone, that's all I ask...

 

I hope Constantine gets some good buzz from this. I had tweeted the suggestion that perhaps he could be the floater.  I know Matt Ryan is currently on Broadway and therefore busy but... maybe in the future?    The show certainly left the door open for him to return in some fashion.

 

I missed what the tattoo's meaning was - the one he magically put on Oliver.  Did we even find out?

[KirkB]

I don't yell at my TV very often. I either have to be really emotionally invested in something or taken completely by surprise/disgust. I am not that invested in Arrow so I definitely think it was the second when Laurel started whining in the hallway about why nobody seems to take her feelings into account when dealing with her recently dead sister who's now running around the city trying to kill people who look like Oliver's sister, because of her. I am capable of feeling sorry for Laurel or taking her side, even though I pretty much hate her now, but this is the equivalent of her repeatedly slamming her head into the wall and then crying when no one appreciates the fact she has a headache.

 

I liked Constantine but I'll admit I was a little underwhelmed after all the buildup. Not about the character himself, the actor was fine, though I never watched his show so I have nothing to compare it to. But for a trip into another realm to try and retrieve someone's soul, not a lot happened. A sad fight with a couple of ninjas, Oliver and Laurel standing there watching Constantine for a minute, before remembering to finally pull Sara out of the hot tub. And after all that we just get a glimpse of Sara opening her eyes, hugging Laurel and Quentin, and then that's pretty much it. I presume her resurrection will be covered more thoroughly on LoT but why not just wait and bring her back there instead of half assing it on Arrow?

 

Neil McDonough is fun to watch. He brings a lot of energy to a character who hasn't had much to do so far but he is making the most of his screen time. I always enjoy villains who are themselves enjoying being villains. 

 

Oliver's rejection of hypocrisy was interesting. Him pointing out the fact he was in no position to call any else on lying or hiding anything was great. I even liked the bit of contrition on his part where he felt bad he had put her in a position where Thea felt the need to hide this from him. It doesn't necessarily make up for all that same stuff he's done in the past but it's a start.

 

There is definitely more going on with Andy than meets the eye. I have a hard time believing Quentin Lance could find and verify government information that neither Diggle or his wife, who used to work for frigging ARGUS, never knew existed.

[paigow]

Why was Sara running all over the city? Her "basic instinct" should have told her to hang around the building. Thea would eventually show up. When Felicity had her visual epiphany of Thea lookalikes, did anyone get a Terminator 1 flashback. "We got a phonebook killer, boss" 

[kirkola]

- Felicity is being dumbed down.  Why can't she and Curtis BOTH be brilliant?  Why is she always going to him and not the other way around? 

 

I prefer to fan-wank that Felicity is just so busy that she needs to outsource things.  I mean, yeah, Felicity could have done all that computer stuff on her own, but she's probably too busy 1) in boardrooms justifying yet another expenditure (*cough* mayoral campaign *cough*) when the company is in so much financial trouble it's laying people off; and 2) running off to Team Arrow and solving their tech problems. 

[that one guy]

I didn't like this episode very much, but it was worth it for the moment Zombie Sara punched Laurel in the face.

[benteen]

Great call on the WTF Thea moment where she says Lance has been looking out for them since their mother's death.  If by looking out for them she meant hounding them nonstop for the past year, she'd be correct!

[Chaser]

That line about Lance made no sense and it actually annoyed me more than anything Laurel said.

[AyChihuahua]

I did a totally non-scientific survey of articles and comments on the episode so far, and overall, the Laurel Redemption Tour, Take IV, seems to be a fail.  

 

The "What about meeee?!?" seems to be a particular source of derision in reviews.  And all problems had easy fixes, most obviously have LL NOT WAIT A WEEK AND ACTUALLY NEVER TELL ANYONE and have her be more apologetic or unsure or whatever, instead of whining about not getting enough attention.

[calliope1975]

I did a totally non-scientific survey of articles and comments on the episode so far, and overall, the Laurel Redemption Tour, Take IV, seems to be a fail.  

 

The "What about meeee?!?" seems to be a particular source of derision in reviews.  And all problems had easy fixes, most obviously have LL NOT WAIT A WEEK AND ACTUALLY NEVER TELL ANYONE and have her be more apologetic or unsure or whatever, instead of whining about not getting enough attention.

 

That's what's so baffling on a writing level - what the hell are they doing with this character? Everything about the Sara resurrection story line could have been achieved by making Laurel sympathetic, but they went the opposite route. TIIC keep saying she's great and all but continue to write scenes where she's selfish, rude, and quite possibly nuts. Why do they have such a blind spot? I truly don't understand it. 

[AyChihuahua]

That's what's so baffling on a writing level - what the hell are they doing with this character? Everything about the Sara resurrection story line could have been achieved by making Laurel sympathetic, but they went the opposite route. TIIC keep saying she's great and all but continue to write scenes where she's selfish, rude, and quite possibly nuts. Why do they have such a blind spot? I truly don't understand it. 

I would be on board that the writers simply don't care about the character, but then they have other characters call out what a stupid reckless shit she is, rather than just ignoring it.  So I'm starting to believe that the showrunners and some of the writers don't care about her, and some of the writers actively dislike her.  Maybe one actually cares and likes her, but they switch off writing, so I believe one writer who's not a showrunner or whatever doesn't have that much of a say re the episodes he/she is not actually assigned to write.

[dtissagirl]

It turns out BYGONES! only works if you're kinder gentler Oliver, blissfully happy in love with Felicity.

 

If only all of those reviewers had a Felicity.

[Sakura12]

What Laurel did was not a Bygones situation! She endangered the entire city by NOT TELLING anyone that her zombie assassin sister was on the lose. 

[AyChihuahua]

It turns out BYGONES! only works if you're kinder gentler Oliver, blissfully happy in love with Felicity.

 

If only all of those reviewers had a Felicity.

His frustration threshold is certainly much higher now that he's getting laid on the regular.

Edited November 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[writersblock51]

I agree that Oliver's resigned 'Laurel, what have you done?' and his folding like a house of cards at the end was far more reminiscent of how pre-island Oliver handled her rants as well as being able to see the overall big picture in the present day.  It helps that he's very secure and happy with Felicity and is on better grounds with Thea and Diggle.  Heck, he's even on better footing with Quentin, however tenuous it may be - he knows they're at least working together against DD.

 

This is now the pattern of being 100% baffled by the writing for and about Laurel.  Most of the stuff that came out of Thea's mouth when it was connected to Laurel was equally baffling BUT the stuff concerning Laurel that came out of Quentin's mouth made sense.  When Thea talked about Sara or non-Laurel info to Oliver, the writing was just fine.  I feel that the writers are trying to have an established, healthy and close relationship between Thea and Laurel that has actually been inconsistent in the past 3 years.  Laurel was very helpful to Thea in S1.  Kind of indifferent in S2 until it came time to dealing with Sebastian Blood.  Wasn't involved much until the truth of Sara's death came about...  I wonder if the EPs and writers actually see the final cut of the show as the audiences sees it, because I suspect that there are more scenes written and shot that provides them with a basis that we aren't privvy to.  So what makes sense to the writers and EPs - because of the deeper pool of scenes - causes viewers like me to be puzzled. 

 

The change in writers from one episode to the other has been something that I think Arrow struggles with at times.  There are some writers that I think write for specific characters better than others.  But it seems like a universal problem to write for Laurel.

 

I saw a clip of the final scene with Oliver and Laurel... I admit to being biased against Laurel and KC so I say this with that full disclosure: The smug smile on Laurel's face at the campaign office irked me nearly as much as the shit eating grin she had on when she put on Sara's black leather jacket at the end of S2.  She got what she wanted, to hell with ramifications and accountability.

 

In regards to Felicity being too busy with real work to get deal with stuff that Curtis is clearly capable of doing, that makes good sense.  I guess I'd like to see her show more input and collaboration with a quick word or two, though.  Otherwise, I like the dynamic between Felicity and Curtis.  It's nice, too, that there are NO romantic beats there at all.   They are both in happy relationships and prove that you can work closely together without 'going there.'  It's how most people go about things, so it's nice to see the absolute lack of cliched tropes here. 

[sekay87]

I was starting to like Laurel. Then she resurrected Sara and insisted on keeping her alive despite everyone's warnings and clear evidence that it was a terrible idea. I wanted to bang my head against the wall during the hospital scene with her "What about me" crap. Laurel? Had you just let your sister rest peacefully, then Thea would have never been attacked in the first place. I wish I could just fully get on Laurel's side but this turn of events has frustrated me.

[Delphi]

I'm wondering whether they had Thea speak of Quinton in such esteem because it's going to be him in the grave so the writers are making an attempt to have it be more emotional at the end.

[statsgirl]

I can kind of understand Thea supporting the relationship with the Lances.  She knew Laurel from the time she was a young child and when Oliver left town and Thea didn't want to live in the loft, Laurel let her stay with her.  Also, she pretended to go to Nanda Parbat to help Thea.  The Lances are Thea's connection to the good times of her childhood before her father and brother died and her mother hid, before her mother went to jail for the Undertaking. Thea's grown up some since the show started but she's still blocked by seeing things through her eyes only.

 

Given that Quentin is asking questions about Sgt Diggle, and Damien presumably knows Oliver's driver is John Diggle, isn't he going to get suspicious?

 

I like Constantine. I just hated that he was all "Baron Reiter is doing worse things than harvesting drugs here" and then didn't tell Oliver what they were.  This isn't about keeping secrets, it's just stupid not to tell the guy who saved your life what those bad things are.

 

So Curtis is an athlete too. Why do I have the feeling it's important in a future episode?

Also, do you think the training area where Oliver and Thea were sparring is on a different level from the main lair area or just a separate room? It looks like a pretty open floor plan so I just assumed it was on a lower level.

I noticed that too. In the drawings that came out earlier there was only one floor but then why would Felicity need a PA system?

 

I mentioned this stuff in the spoiler thread when the episode leaked, but some extra thoughts --

 

1. They've been doing a structural thing with the episodes this season: each one focuses on Oliver's relationship with one of the other regular characters. Oliver and that character have a disagreement/clashing of interests/huge ass trust issues, and that conflict is solved by the end of the episode:

 

401 was Felicity

402 was Thea

403 was Diggle

404 was Lance

405 was Laurel

Given that Felicity and Curtis know that Ray is still alive, I'm guessing 406 will be Ray, even though they left on fairly good terms.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In regards to Felicity being too busy with real work to get deal with stuff that Curtis is clearly capable of doing, that makes good sense.

I'm mostly okay with it for the same reason. She now has to spend time dealing with administrative tasks like board meetings and other CEO-ish stuff while she's still command central in the Bat Cave, which leaves less time for her to do things in general. Giving some of these tasks to Curtis is just delegating to someone who she trusts and who is capable of the tasks at hand. I have seen people who are far lower on the corporate ladder ask their employees to do things that they are perfectly capable of doing themselves but are too busy (heh or self important) to do themselves, so it doesn't seem totally unrealistic for Felicity to do the same.

[aslightjump]

Okay, things I liked this episode:

 

-Laurel being like "Yep, I fucked up" in the hospital with Oliver. I love Laurel Lance so much, writers, I love her even more when you give her self-awareness

-Laurel dragging Oliver for being a douche to her for the last one and a half seasons, because I don't even blame that on Oliver, that was some weird, weird writing and I think SA's acting choices (there were some moments where it seemed like he genuinely hated her)

-I liked the hallway scene is what I'm saying, even though I hated Laurel's "think about my family" line. Does she know about Ivo? 

-I am not willing to give Oliver a pass on anything so long as we're apparently not telling Laurel her dad's working for the bad guy, just like I'm not giving Laurel a pass on not telling the team about Sara, even though she did explain why she did so. STOP KEEPING SECRETS GUYS!

-RAY PALMER!

-Diggle finding out about Andy. 

-The fact that this stupid resurrection storyline is done so the Lance sisters can stop being plot devices.

-CONSTANTINE!

 

Overall, I think I liked this episode? I'm not entirely sure. As an LL fan, I'm just happy this is over and now I can see my girl kick ass with her sister and keeping delivering stupid cheesy lines like "New cry, same frequency" (hahaha, whaaaa?)

 

Also, side note, something I just did not believe: Laurel pulling the gun on Sara. I realize that she realized that Oliver was right and homegirl had no soul and she needed to put her sister out of her misery but I'm calling bullshit on Laurel freaking Lance, who did absolutely everything she could to bring her sister back, was gonna give up when they were on the verge of recapturing her. Nope. Sorry, show. Try again.

 

Another side note: when they were going into the soul room, just before, Laurel screamed something? Does anyone know what that was?

[dtissagirl]

Another side note: when they were going into the soul room, just before, Laurel screamed something? Does anyone know what that was?

 

"Oliverrrr."

[Happy Harpy]

I still love Quentin and consider him victim of a character assassination, but a reminder: after the Queen Gambit, Thea was so alone that she talked to a gravestone. Also Thea didn't seem so fond of Laurel in S1-A, see how she told Oliver about Laurel/Tommy. And I was under the impression that Quentin wanted nothing to do with the Queens - IIRC, he said something like this in S1.

So I think that I'd better spare myself Thea's "For the Lances" speech, because my memory is still good enough and my stomach still not strong enough to bear it.

 

Also, just from the preview (didn't have the time yet to find a minus Laurel edit of the episode) I know why I stopped watching Constantine, aside from the show dumping Liv. Matt Ryan plays it too campy for me, I feel that he distances himself from the role and doesn't truly embrace it. And honestly, the dye job is as awful as the Island wig.

But...if he toned it down, and went back to his (gorgeous) natural hair color, and if I can't have Roy back, I'm still all in favor of some snarky Constantine/Thea hookup. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Menrva]

I can't really add anything new. It was an ok episode. Liked seeing Constantine and wouldn't mind if he popped up again sometime. Enjoyed watching Sara kick LL's butt. I would watch that on a loop over and over again…

 

Laurel is the worst. I detest her with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. She is irredeemable. I said it once and I'll say it again: Laurel Lance is the Lina Lamont of Arrow. Too bad she'll never get her comeuppance.

 

My kid was throwing a tantrum and in my head, I was thinking, "Don't you dare pull a Laurel Lance on me, kid. You are so grounded." If only I could put LL in time out.

 

Oh, and Thea can't have Constantine. He's mine.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Menrva

[aslightjump]

Quentin: you gotta admire her consistency, death secret from me, resurrection secret from you. *talks about his business with Darhk* btw, don’t tell Laurel.

 

These people have problems. 

 

I still love Quentin and consider him victim of a character assassination, but a reminder: after the Queen Gambit, Thea was so alone that she talked to a gravestone. Also Thea didn't seem so fond of Laurel in S1-A, see how she told Oliver about Laurel/Tommy. And I was under the impression that Quentin wanted nothing to do with the Queens - IIRC, he said something like this in S1.

So I think that I'd better spare myself Thea's "For the Lances" speech, because my memory is still good enough and my stomach still not strong enough to bear it.

Yeah, but Thea went right on to say how Laurel helped her at CNRI. And those two families have a long history together, and Thea clearly adores Laurel now. I really liked their hospital scene. I wish Thea and Laurel and Felicity would have some actual scenes together. Or have I just missed them?

 

So after this episode, do you think we could see Team Arrow actually acting as a cohesive unit instead of two separate forces loosely bond together? I missed the Nanda Parbat episode and I don't plan on watching it because "OTA" makes me rage almost as much as Laurel Lance does for other people, but once Ray and Sara are shipped of to LoT the team will hopefully get back on track.

 

I miss Arsenal.

 

Thank you, dtissagirl. That was weird.

Edited November 5, 2015 by aslightjump

[AyChihuahua]

 

And those two families have a long history together, and Thea clearly adores Laurel now. I really liked their hospital scene.

A history that includes the patriarch of the family leading a massive manhunt for Oliver SIX MONTHS AGO.

 

Thea obviously has Pit-induced brain damage.

[lexicon]

Nope poor Thea, this is obviously her season to prop. It's like Felicity and Diggle in s3, except for her it's worse, in addition to becoming her advocate with Oliver (and by proxy the audience), she lives with LL, works with her on the team, takes strange grave robbing/Lazarus Pit dropping field trips with her and even parrots her words (refusing to answer her phone because she doesn't need anymore of Oliver's judgment).

 

I saw one comment that the she's probably coming down with Stockholm Syndrome and even though it made me laugh it made me kinda sad too, it almost as if the poor thing is being held hostage.

[Happy Harpy]

And those two families have a long history together, and Thea clearly adores Laurel now.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember that any of that "long history together" was ever established, showed in flashbacks, or even mentioned on Arrow.

It was said that Tommy, Laurel, Oliver and Sara knew each other around high school (maybe before?) but no relationship between their families was mentioned. I'm not even sure that Moira and Dinah ever mentioned each other.

The only connection between those families that I've seen on the show was revolving around the Queen Gambit and again, the history then isn't about being "together", but apart and from Quentin's perspective, adversarial.

The Merlyns and the Queens being close friends was established. The Lances and the Queens? Pretty much made of sister swapping.

 

And yeah, Thea isn't in her right mind right now, or she'd realize that Laurel used her to get access to the LP.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[AyChihuahua]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember that any of that "long history together" was ever established, showed in flashbacks, or even mentioned on Arrow.

It was said that Tommy, Laurel, Oliver and Sara knew each other around high school (maybe before?) but no relationship between their families was mentioned. I'm not even sure that Moira and Dinah ever mentioned each other.

The only connection between those families that I've seen on the show was revolving around the Queen Gambit and again, the history then isn't about being "together", but apart and from Quentin's perspective, adversarial.

The Merlyns and the Queens being close friends was established. The Lances and the Queens? Pretty much made of sister swapping.

Well, we do have the flashback in which Quentin called Oliver an "overgrown frat boy" [he wasn't wrong] and didn't want Laurel to move in with him.  I'm sure Moira loved the guy who pretty obviously [and justifiably, Ollie was a douche] disliked her "beautiful boy."  She wasn't really that into her kids, you know.

[Happy Harpy]

Well, we do have the flashback in which Quentin called Oliver an "overgrown frat boy" [he wasn't wrong] and didn't want Laurel to move in with him. 

Hey, so actually Oliver and Quentin had common grounds back then! Oliver didn't want to move in with Laurel, either [he wasn't wrong].

:D

[Angel12d]

The only issue I had with Thea preaching about the long history between the Lance and Queen family was how unnatural and heavy handed it was. Quit telling me these things and start showing me. Don't give me a list of reasons why Laurel is a saint who doesn't do anything wrong and yet show me the complete opposite on screen. It's cheap. 

 

And that crap about Quentin being there since Moira died still annoys me because just the episode previously he was hoping Oliver would become Mayor so he could go the same way the previous Mayors did…which is dead. Yeah, that's real nice and supportive.

[aslightjump]

Yeah, no, the Quentin part I totally agree with since he seems to have always hated Oliver, but the Laurel part I understood since Thea has swung from regarding her as a big sister and being irritated that she had moved on from her big brother with his best friend. Moira seemed to like Laurel alright in the flashbacks they showed, and even said she was good for Oliver, so I buy the Laurel-Queen connection. Quentin? Nah. By long history together, I basically meant Laurel (and Sara?) and the Queens. I should have clarified. 

 

I have to admit that I watch Arrow very sporadically so there's probably stuff I have missed. More and more I'm coming to realize that I genuinely don't like this show. I didn't like a majority of season three, I don't like Oliver much, and I don't like how they write women. Even Felicity's line about being glad Constantine wasn't a gorgeous girl, which should have been funny, annoyed me. I keep thinking they'll turn it around, and now that Sara's resurrected and Ray's coming back I'll give it a couple more episodes, but the characters never learn anything. It bugs me. Felicity is the same character she was in season one, Laurel has gone on the same downward spiral for the third season in a row, Diggle is...what even is Diggle anymore? Oliver and Thea grew, and I love Thea but I didn't like how Oliver grew because I feel like he stepped over everybody else to get there. 

 

But I did like Constantine. 

[Chaser]

Considering pre-island Oliver, I read Moira's words to Laurel as manipulation. My head canon is Moira saw Laurel as someone who would look good at functions and was easily controllable.  

 

ETA: Queen - Lance connection makes absolutely no sense. Not when I think about everything we know pre-island and everything we have been shown.

 

Lance hates Oliver. He always has. The idea that Oliver secretly wanted his approval doesn't work. Oliver cheated on Laurel multiple times including with her own sister. If he had no respect for Laurel, why in the world would he have any respect for Lance.

 

Laurel was idiot. She dismissed Oliver's behavior and allowed him (also an idiot) to play her for a fool. And if we are to accept that she was actually quite smart, then she a gold-digger. The Moira Queen they showed on Arrow would have no time or respect for Laurel Lance. And I would think with Lance taking pot-shots at Oliver, she wouldn't care much for him either.

 

As for Thea and Laurel? Nope. When Thea lost her brother, it certainly wasn't Laurel that was there for her. And Laurel's actions in 4x02/4x03 were pure manipulation.

 

This got long. But UGH.

Edited November 6, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

I'm basically okay with the idea that Laurel and the Queens have a long history.  Throw Sara in there, fine.  I mean, it's an incredibly horrific and sordid history, but it exists.  But saying Lance was there for them after Moira died is, by and large, delusional.  I get that we're supposed to forget that Quentin LED A MANHUNT FOR OLIVER SIX MONTHS AGO, and also LORDED ROY'S DEATH over the brokenhearted Queen siblings, also six months ago, but unfortunately for me I have a functional non-LPd brain and therefore can't just forget these actual in-show facts.

 

 

Laurel was idiot. She dismissed Oliver's behavior and allowed him (also an idiot) to play her for a fool. And if we are to accept that she was actually quite smart, then she a gold-digger.

I really like Kismet's head canon that Laurel wasn't a gold digger, she wanted a project.  She considered Oliver to be her project, and at the successful end of the project, he'd be perfect Ollie Queen and she'd be perfect Mrs. Queen and it'd all be perfect.  I mean, I'm sure she considered the money and status to be a bonus, but I can accept that she really wanted a project.

Edited November 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

You know, if you take Laurel out of the vision quest scene nothing changes. The same result of recovering Sara's soul could have been achieved with Oliver / Thea or Oliver / Quentin. Oliver was the key to saving Sara, not Laurel. All she did was create the problem in the first place.

But Laurel did claim partial credit for the save at the end of the episode, so there's that. If this is her character redemption arc, then it's not working for me.

if you take LL out of the entire episode, nothing really changes. LL was completely unnecessary in this entire episode and yet it was all supposed to be about her.

Sorry NOT sorry, but to me that says a lot about the usefulness of a character. If the only thing the character did was create the problem that needed a whole episode or 2 to fix.

Edited November 6, 2015 by kismet

[catrice2]

I could not believe Thea's speech.  The problem is that both Thea and Laurel needed to be shown having a friend.  Laurel had the Charlies Angel girl before they sent her away.  Oliver had Tommy and Diggle.  I don't understand why they feel that everyone's lives have to revolve around team Arrow. Even if it is not shown on screen they need to indicate that these people have an outlet.  Diggle has his wife and child, and Felicity is forming a friendship, but again it is a work related thing. 

 

Maybe Oliver did want Quentin's approval, only because he knew he never liked him, but what happened to Moira's ex husband?  Why not keep him around and let the kids establish and explore a relationship with him? 

 

To me, the best chemistry Oliver had was with the girl (can't remember her name) that was killing people when her father was in the mob. I actually would have liked to see them explore his relationship with the police officer he went to school with that got shot. They never even showed her healing and coming back. 

 

Do we know if the information about Diggle's brother is true?  Wasn't it hinted he was still alive and one of the "ghosts" or Hive people they were fighting one night? 

 

I have fast forwarded so much this year I have confused myself! 

 

I am just meh on Sara and the whole Legends of Tomorrow.  I resented the way they used the Ray character as a foil for Oliver and Felicity (who are so boring together it is unreal) but he was not interesting to me last year and he is not interesting to me now..and I feel the same way with Sara.  Her whole shoehorned relationship with Oliver, and now Felicity is supposed to work with and care for both of Oliver's old "buddies." What woman wants to work that closely with women her boyfriend used to sleep with?

 

For me, the best part of the show was when everyone did not know who he was and we didn't have multiple members of the team. 

 

If Darkh knows so much, surely he would know Lance and Oliver have met? I don't see him not having Lance followed. 

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, no, the Quentin part I totally agree with since he seems to have always hated Oliver, but the Laurel part I understood since Thea has swung from regarding her as a big sister and being irritated that she had moved on from her big brother with his best friend. Moira seemed to like Laurel alright in the flashbacks they showed, and even said she was good for Oliver, so I buy the Laurel-Queen connection. Quentin? Nah. By long history together, I basically meant Laurel (and Sara?) and the Queens. I should have clarified. 

 

I have to admit that I watch Arrow very sporadically so there's probably stuff I have missed. More and more I'm coming to realize that I genuinely don't like this show. I didn't like a majority of season three, I don't like Oliver much, and I don't like how they write women. Even Felicity's line about being glad Constantine wasn't a gorgeous girl, which should have been funny, annoyed me. I keep thinking they'll turn it around, and now that Sara's resurrected and Ray's coming back I'll give it a couple more episodes, but the characters never learn anything. It bugs me. Felicity is the same character she was in season one, Laurel has gone on the same downward spiral for the third season in a row, Diggle is...what even is Diggle anymore? Oliver and Thea grew, and I love Thea but I didn't like how Oliver grew because I feel like he stepped over everybody else to get there. 

 

But I did like Constantine. 

 

I am going to reply to the Laurel-Queen connection in the relationship thread.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Lady Calypso

[kismet]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember that any of that "long history together" was ever established, showed in flashbacks, or even mentioned on Arrow.

It was said that Tommy, Laurel, Oliver and Sara knew each other around high school (maybe before?) but no relationship between their families was mentioned. I'm not even sure that Moira and Dinah ever mentioned each other.

The only connection between those families that I've seen on the show was revolving around the Queen Gambit and again, the history then isn't about being "together", but apart and from Quentin's perspective, adversarial.

The Merlyns and the Queens being close friends was established. The Lances and the Queens? Pretty much made of sister swapping.

 

And yeah, Thea isn't in her right mind right now, or she'd realize that Laurel used her to get access to the LP.

I feel like there was some relationship established during SL's return party when I believe Moira & Dinah talked. but it certainly has not been touted as this amazing & long running interrelationship like Queen-Merlyn families.

 

Gotta say TQ does seem to be acting like she has Stockholm Syndrome. Her willingness to just go along with LL’s way is a little off, as is her mimicking her words. But tbh, her talking up LL was not surprising or off-putting to me. I feel like the show did establish them as having a friendship.  And I guess I just figured that during the hiatus they just got closer, esp considering they are now roommates & co-workers on a vigilante squad.

 

TQs comments about QL were just utter bullshit. At no point was QL ever a huge supporter of the Queen family before or after MQ died.  In fact, I’m pretty sure he didn’t do anything different or special and then by a year later he was actively destroying the Queen name & family. So yeah that seemed like either propping or an oversight. I do not think the writers really watch their own show. Or perhaps what they established or forgot to establish just escapes their minds.

[tennisgurl]

The Queens and the Lances certainly do have a history, but I wouldn't call it a good one. From what we have seen, it went from awkward (the Laurel/Sara sister swap) to openly hostile, like in the flashback where Quentin busted Thea at Tommys party, and started throwing her dead brother in her face. The best the Lance/Quentin connection was probably a few seasons ago, when Oliver was alright with Quentin, and was an active ally of the Arrow. Then last season happened, Quentins character was ripped to shreds, and the whole connection fell apart. 

[Chaser]

It bugs me that Felicity is wearing two different colors of nail polish. That's not right.

[writersblock51]

The Thea and Laurel speeches, to me, indicate that the writers and EPs either:

1) don't watch their own show with an eye and ear for continuity

2) don't think viewers pay close attention

 

The show changes history often enough so I suppose it's nothing to be shocked by when it happens again.

 

I think there's a lot of grey area where Thea is concerned - the girl's mind was controlled by someone else and who knows, really, how stable she is.  I'm sure there are plenty of synapses that aren't firing right.  It would explain a lot.

[Starfish35]

Well, I watched it.

I don't feel like belaboring the points everyone else has already made so eloquently. Let's just say this was not one of my favorites episodes ever. But I'm glad I read everyone's reactions before watching. I'd probably be raging if I'd gone in unspoiled.

Constantine was cool. Never watched his show, but I liked him.

I'm really enjoying Curtis.

I'm not an Olicity shipper but if they keep handling them like this, they might win me over.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Sara get to be herself again, instead of zombie!Sara. Her soul resurrection, however, was really anticlimactic.

Laurel is the worst. Seriously. :( The absolute worst. I do not know if I've ever despised a fictional character more.

Can we have the next episode now please?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Laurel is the worst. I detest her with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. She is irredeemable. I said it once and I'll say it again: Laurel Lance is the Lina Lamont of Arrow.

OMG, she totally is!  The star, the inability to see her own failings, thinking what she does is right when it isn't.

 

Quentin: you gotta admire her consistency, death secret from me, resurrection secret from you. *talks about his business with Darhk* btw, don’t tell Laurel.

As a parent, I can see that Quentin didn't want Laurel to think less of him because of what he got into.

 

As a viewer, Laurel was talking loudly about being the Black Canary in a hospital corridor.  Secrets aren't safe with her.

 

Considering pre-island Oliver, I read Moira's words to Laurel as manipulation. My head canon is Moira saw Laurel as someone who would look good at functions and was easily controllable.  

 

ETA: Queen - Lance connection makes absolutely no sense. Not when I think about everything we know pre-island and everything we have been shown.

 

Lance hates Oliver. He always has. The idea that Oliver secretly wanted his approval doesn't work. Oliver cheated on Laurel multiple times including with her own sister. If he had no respect for Laurel, why in the world would he have any respect for Lance.

[snip]

As for Thea and Laurel? Nope. When Thea lost her brother, it certainly wasn't Laurel that was there for her. And Laurel's actions in 4x02/4x03 were pure manipulation.

I agree with your head canon -- I got the feeling that Moira thought that Laurel would be someone who make Oliver stop with the drinking and partying and settle down, and who could be manipulated to be a Queen consort.

 

I can see Oliver maybe wanting Lance's approval when he got back to Starling City.  Quentin was fighting the same fight, saving the city, and a respected detective.  Before the island?  No way.

 

Since Thea doesn't seem to have any friends any more, Laurel is literally the only person left from the Old Days because Robert, Moira and Tommy are dead and Walter is gone.  And Laurel was kind to her at CNRI.  Thea didn't know she lied to her about what she was doing in Salvation.

[Chaser]

During the ritual scene they did that over head shot of the group. You had Oliver and Laurel in the middle standing over Sara. Behind Oliver stood Diggle, Thea and Felicity. Lance was standing with Constantine so he was on Laurel's side, but not behind her. 

 

I thought it was interesting placement. I would have thought they would have had them more evenly distributed to demonstrate the Team or just because it would add better symmetry to the shot. 

 

I'm not reading anything into it, it just stuck me as kind of an odd choice.

[BkWurm1]

Nope poor Thea, this is obviously her season to prop. It's like Felicity and Diggle in s3, except for her it's worse, in addition to becoming her advocate with Oliver (and by proxy the audience), she lives with LL, works with her on the team, takes strange grave robbing/Lazarus Pit dropping field trips with her and even parrots her words (refusing to answer her phone because she doesn't need anymore of Oliver's judgment).

 

I saw one comment that the she's probably coming down with Stockholm Syndrome and even though it made me laugh it made me kinda sad too, it almost as if the poor thing is being held hostage.

I said it only as half a joke.  Laurel is not holding her prisoner, but after Roy ran away from her for her own good and Oliver left the city for his, Thea likely felt she had no where else to go.  For those five months while Oliver was away and Thea was grappling with this bloodlust and the trauma have a violent non death (something that apparently she never talked about with Laurel) her alternative was either Laurel or be alone.  Dig had his family and any new friend would be in the dark and Malcolm wasn't an option.  

 

I've seen it too many time, even if a person says something that is initially completely dismissed, if the same person says it over and over enough times, suddenly, the crazy starts sounding reasonable.  So this revamped history of Quentin having been there for their family since Moira died, where would it come from except from Laurel?  I mean after Moira died, Thea left town.  She only came back after Oliver went and brought her home.  Did she have ANY dealings with QL before he was coming to her apartment and making threats?  Maybe she would have heard that he was getting along with the Arrow but that would have been about it. 

 

 Whether Thea ever figures it out or not, Laurel traded very heavily in on their relationship to get Thea to do something she did not want to do.  Then in order to justify her actions to herself, we start to see Thea parrot back all the excuses Laurel was making.  Again, Laurel isn't forcing Thea to stay with her, but between not feeling she had anyone else to turn to and the constant exposure to her viewpoints while feeling like she owes so much to Laurel for being there, she's become indoctrinated to Laurel's way of thinking.

 

Even in season one with CNRI, Laurel was willing to take her under her wing for a couple weeks and after that, the real person that changed Thea's perspective on life was Roy.  But Roy left her.  Oliver left her.  Her mom died.  Her bio dad is evil.  Ah, but Laurel is still there.  And history is rewritten. 

[lemotomato]

"Oh Thea, you're the little sister I've always wanted! I've always been here for you, haven't I?"

"Well, there was that time when you were prosecuting my mom in a capital case--"

"HAVEN'T I BEEN YOUR BEST FRIEND THIS SUMMER WHEN EVERYONE ELSE LEFT YOU?"

"Yes, of course, Laurel!"

"Yay! So tonight we're going to have dinner with Daddy. One happy family, just like old times!"

"Uh... but I've never really spent any time with your father--"

"Just. Like. Old. Times."

"... Of course, Laurel."

Edited November 6, 2015 by lemotomato

[looptab]

You know, as much as there seem to be reasons for this friendship between Thea and Laurel to be mostly "the only alternative" for Thea, from outside the narrative I believe it's mostly a thread to keep Laurel in. As in, Thea would be connected anyway because she is Oliver's sister. But Laurel, at least until this episode, was far far away from anyone else. Hence, roommates and BFFs with Thea. Unless they also want to sell me that now she's BFFs with Diggle too, which, hahah, no.

[arjumand]

I've seen it too many time, even if a person says something that is initially completely dismissed, if the same person says it over and over enough times, suddenly, the crazy starts sounding reasonable.  So this revamped history of Quentin having been there for their family since Moira died, where would it come from except from Laurel?  I mean after Moira died, Thea left town.  She only came back after Oliver went and brought her home.  Did she have ANY dealings with QL before he was coming to her apartment and making threats?  Maybe she would have heard that he was getting along with the Arrow but that would have been about it. 

 

 

 

I get why Thea might be saying this, what I don't get is why Oliver doesn't say anything to her*, something like, "Do you not remember when he wanted to lock me up for the rest of my life? How about Roy? Remember him?"

 

She was there when Quentin launched his manhunt. She was there when Oliver was arrested. I guess Oliver's never told anyone that Quentin essentially assaulted him when he was in handcuffs. But Quentin kept harassing her about Roy and even crowed about his death like it was Oliver's fault. I mean, newsflash, Captain Lance - when someone dies in police custody, guess who's responsible? Here's a hint - it's not his girlfriend's brother.

 

Thea was around for all this, so what the hell? I know you were half joking about Stockholm Syndrome, but what the hell.

 

* I mean, he just keeps taking it, and not responding unless he really has to - like when he saw Damien Darhk with Lance. Maybe he really is that fuck-stupid right now. That's my headcanon now - everytime whoever starts laying into him, he remembers Felicity and starts singing sappy Lionel Richie songs in his head.

[looptab]

Moved to behind the scenes thread.

Edited November 6, 2015 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

So anyone else feel that the "erotic hand rubbing" during the Olicity scene was just an inorganic romantic wink tossed in that fell flat given they were discussing such serious matters like Sara's resurrection and Ray's death? 

 

Have I mentioned how very happy I am to have found Previously.TV?

[EmilyBettFan]

It fell flat? That's the only scene that I liked. Plus Curtis and overlord.

[bijoux]

It didn't fall flat to me. It read as primarily support and comfort. Any eroticism was undercurrents that are just there.