S04.E05: Haunted

[millennium]

I continue to be amazed at how blasé the characters' reactions are to resurrected love ones, traveling to magical realms, Thea killing people, Sara killing people, etc.   As I said last week, the average teenager has more spirited exchanges with his parents about breaking curfew than the Arrow crew does about all the grievous harm they do to each other and to their city in the name of good intentions (and yeah, Laurel, this time it's you because you selfishly brought rabid Sarah back to life and back to Star City where she murdered two people and attempted to murder two innocent women).   They don't even seem to care about the impact of their actions beyond how it affects their small circle.  The level of regret rises to "Oops" and is then dismissed and the character absolved by default when a new crisis comes along. 

[TyranAmiros]

Constantine rubbed me the wrong way--maybe because the soul thing was underwhelming, especially with the lack of Sara POV after the resurrection. I kinda want a Thea/Constantine spin-off now though. Maybe that's just because I enjoy The Librarians and Constantine seemed like a second-rate Flynn Carson to me.

[FurryFury]

Wow, how long has it been since I've legitimately enjoyed Arrow? Two years? Anyway, I really liked this episode! I came back to the show basically for Sara and LOT setup, but I've even liked the flashback this time (I've FF-d through them in the previous episodes so I've no idea who are these guys on the island or why Oliver's back there again after Hong Kong), mostly thanks to Constantine, who was a hoot. Hell, if the show continued in this vein - with a focus on all the characters interacting with each other, with Oliver not being a dick (I still remember his s2 self, ugh), with some humor, etc., I may even think about returning. 

 

Too bad about Laurel, who continues to be the worst, but most of my hate for her was how the writing constantly shilled her over Sara and how she stole her superhero identity from her sister, and now that Sara's back and going to have her own show without any Laurel, it's got a bit easier to tolerate. But holy shit, Laurel. I wanted to punch her so much this episode.

 

I really like how much focus and agency Thea has got compared to how I remember. Although wanting to die because of the bloodlust thing felt too much.

 

Also, I would have wanted some POV for Sara when she was resurrected, but I hope it gets explored later, maybe in LOT. I did love how everyone came together to help her. That was heartwarming.

 

Anyway, Sara's back! Yay! Finally! And Constantine! And likable Oliver! This ep was a really nice surprise.

 

Don't give a damn about Ray, but whatever. They need to get him back for LOT, I know. Just please, no Sara/Ray romance, I'm already dreading it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by FurryFury

[BkWurm1]

Just curious, have you felt that Oliver has been unlikable before this episode this season?

[yellowfred]

So, I felt like this episode was a bit anticlimactic.  The whole spirit realm bit was really underwhelming.  I guess it was thoughtful of that spirit realm to give Oliver and Laurel weapons and armor, with which they could then kill the figures the spirit realm sent to stop them.  It makes me think that the spirit realm is dumb in more ways than one.

 

I don't like that we didn't really get to see much of re-ensouled!Sara.  I mean, I guess going on a week-long killing spree (not to mention jumping through all those windows) left her a bit drained, but I would have liked to see her have some reaction to the whole situation (i.e. the fact that she's alive and in a strange place with occult symbols on the floor and wearing an outfit that probably smells like a rotting corpse).  It's now been four weeks since they first dug her up and they're finally in a position to have her react to it all, but instead she's napping off screen.  Like I said before, underwhelming.

 

On a side note, I feel like they may have slightly overdone the whole "Sara enters and/or exits by jumping through otherwise solid things" bit.  Like, how many windows has she broken in the past week?  Also, was she just hanging out on that weird perch in the ally outside the Big Belly Burger?  How long was she there?

 

I really enjoyed Thea this episode.  I particularly loved her "please don't remind me about my brother's doomed sex cruise" look when they were talking about the campaign stuff.  I also really felt for how badly she seems to want to help Sara.  I hope those two get to have some bonding scenes before Sara leaves (ideally at least one where Sara is not trying to kill her).  I even agree with her that Oliver's mayoral aspirations aren't a good reason to distance himself from Laurel (not to say that there aren't good reasons; that's just not one of them).

[bijoux]

Some small things that I enjoyed: Walter got name dropped! He's gonna have to show up at some rally or press conference now, I refuse to be dissuaded on this point. Flashback Oliver getting himself out of handcuffs and following Constantine as a boss.

[FurryFury]

Just curious, have you felt that Oliver has been unlikable before this episode this season?

 

I've only seen two episodes before that, and no, I didn't exactly find him unlikable, but I didn't find him especially likable either. This episode, he just felt more warm to me. That said, I've skipped through some of the scenes, so I could have missed something.

 

Also, I've forgotten to mention that something about DD just reminds me of Mayor from Buffy. Maybe it's the box last week, and also that he has his own scenes parallel to the heroes from early in the season. And just the whole feeling, I dunno. The Mayor was more fun though.

[dtissagirl]

I mentioned this stuff in the spoiler thread when the episode leaked, but some extra thoughts --

 

1. They've been doing a structural thing with the episodes this season: each one focuses on Oliver's relationship with one of the other regular characters. Oliver and that character have a disagreement/clashing of interests/huge ass trust issues, and that conflict is solved by the end of the episode:

 

401 was Felicity

402 was Thea

403 was Diggle

404 was Lance

405 was Laurel

 

Next week looks

like it's Felicity's turn again

.

 

So I understand why some of you might be worried this is ~a sign~ of upcoming NOTP, but it was also Laurel's turn in the season's motif of exploring family and relationships.

 

2. I don't think there's any possible way to make Laurel less grating other than a full on personality transplant, but the more serious problem they had there was she had no connection whatsoever to Oliver -- and hasn't had one pretty much since the hallway scene in 214. That's almost 40 episodes of TV with her not belonging to Oliver's storyline. Now he's gonna try to be a better friend to her, so what I'm taking from this episode is that OLIVER is a pretty nice dude when he's happy and in love, so he'll let bygones be bygones wrt to the atrocious things Laurel did, because he's trying to do better by the people in his life.

 

There are even reasons in-text in this episode for him turning over a new leaf:

 

a) Thea asked him to

 

b) His conversation with Felicity about all the people he lost ---> and then him exchanging an olive branch to Laurel, who he's been looking at with WHY ARE YOU EVEN HERE DO YOU EVEN GO HERE stamped on his forehead since S2. But he doesn't want to lose more people, even if that person is his crazy ex-girlfriend who won't leave.

[bijoux]

I find it really hard to believe that the writers are still trying to honestly sell Laurel. In this episode they gave us her accusing Oliver of not caring about her family when it's Oliver inquiring about how Lance is feeling in the same episode. I know she wasn't there to see it, but we ass hhe audience were and the writers and producers chose to put that on screen. I have to believe they're doing that on purpose.

 

Why didn't they bring in Quentin blindfolded instead of giving him knowledge of different entrances to the lair?

[dtissagirl]

I find it really hard to believe that the writers are still trying to honestly sell Laurel. In this episode they gave us her accusing Oliver of not caring about her family when it's Oliver inquiring about how Lance is feeling in the same episode. I know she wasn't there to see it, but we ass hhe audience were and the writers and producers chose to put that on screen. I have to believe they're doing that on purpose.

 

She also said Oliver was the Arrow OUT LOUD in a public hallway -- he even had to ask her to keep her voice down -- in a scene wherein she was complaining of all the secrets he kept from her. THIS IS WHY NOBODY TELLS YOU ANYTHING, LAUREL.

 

But there's no fucking way this isn't on purpose, yeah. ITA.

[Angel12d]

I admit I was concerned about how they were going to frame O/L in this episode but I really didn't get anything from them apart from trying to be friends. Even their vision quest had them suited up as their alter-egos which made me feel that's where their friendship is mainly going to be rooted, out in the field working together.

 

Actually, just to be mean here haha, if Sara wasn't going to another show, I'd actually be slightly more concerned with her reappearing because this episode kind of cemented her connection to Oliver, IMO. Just the way he stroked her face as he laid her out on the floor and the fact that he went to hell or whatever to save her soul. They've always seemed to have a stronger connection to me. I'll never understand how O/L had a connection or relationship EVER but after Sara endured her own hell for years on a parallel with Oliver, I can totally see their bond. It's a moot point because Sara is going to Legends but it's one of the reasons I can't get worked up about O/L.

 

On that note, can we please stop mentioning that Oliver slept with both Lance sisters. Every time it's bought up I find it sickening. Yuck.

[JenMD]

Apparently people are calling the number and they get a reply. I imagine a pre-recorded message?

Yes, it's a short little pre-recorded message by the actor as Constantine.

[paigow]

Does Constantine know that Thea is Oliver's sister? It would change how to interpret that line about "keeping a roomful of pretty women" around.

[looptab]

Oliver made sure to text Constantine his new number as soon as he came back to Starling City 4years ago.

Captain Lance taking care of the Queens after Moira died must be a synonim for'he publicly announced to the city Oliver was a murderer, freezed all of Thea's assets, threw Roy's death in their face'.

[Angel12d]

Captain Lance taking care of the Queens after Moira died must be a synonim for'he publicly announced to the city Oliver was a murderer, freezed all of Thea's assets, threw Roy's death in their face'.

 

Yes! What was that crap about QL being there for them since Moira died? WTF. Show don't tell me. FFS. They keep doing this and it's infuriating and somehow it's always to do with the Lance family. We're always told about their connection and never shown. Bizarre. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Angel12d

[nksarmi]

Resisting the urge to come up with a ship name.. I can resist it.. I totally can!

Nope! off to put my ship names hat on..

umm let's see.... WickedSpeedy? HellblazerSpeedy? HellSpeedy? SpeedyBlaze? 

 

 

As for the episode: I didn't rewatch it.. cause I can only stomach The Laurel - but - what- about - me Lance stupidity show once a week.

Next week looks good though!

 

My favorite of that is WickedSpeedy.  Seriously, I would pay money to see them have an adventure together. :)

[nksarmi]

So since I really don't know KC as an actress outside of Arrow, I'd love to see them bring in Earth 2 Laurel as a very different person - she can still be BC - just a different personality.  This can happen solely on Flash, but I really want to know if the problems with Laurel is how she's being written or KC as an actress.  Plus, I think it would be fun if they could get the actor who played Tommy to come back and have Laurel and Tommy be a couple in Earth 2 (I always thought she had the best chemistry with him - I wish they had kept him around).  I'd even enjoy it if Tommy and Laurel were Earth 2's Green Arrow and Black Canary complete with the comic book romance and everything.  But that would probably make some comic fans heads explode. :)

[benteen]

Ha!  And Felicity called it a DEAD Peacock feather.  Most of the time Peacock feathers are collected from the live birds when they naturally shed them (yes, I may have done some research after seeing the trailer last week)

 

Ah, so that's what that completely random bit was about.  That was pretty clever.

 

I like Felicity and Curtis's interaction a lot but I agree she's been dumbed down a little to prop him up.

 

Although I enjoyed this episode, it did suffer from too much going on.  First off, Arrow and Flash have spent much of their new seasons setting up Legends of Tomorrow.  This is a problem with the shared universe effect.  So we had to take time away from the main plot to service the whole Ray mystery.  Diggle and Lance together was a great pairing that we don't see enough and Lance with Dhark was good too (and pretty funny).  But that subplot could have been moved to another episode.  That way you could have freed up more time for the Constantine plot (yeah, I know, that doesn't have to do with Arrow either in the long or short run).  But I kept wondering when he was going to show up as we got almost forty minutes into the episode.  I think the Sara plot and the Constantine crossover would have been more than enough to base "Haunted" on.

[FurryFury]

So since I really don't know KC as an actress outside of Arrow, I'd love to see them bring in Earth 2 Laurel as a very different person - she can still be BC - just a different personality.  This can happen solely on Flash, but I really want to know if the problems with Laurel is how she's being written or KC as an actress.  Plus, I think it would be fun if they could get the actor who played Tommy to come back and have Laurel and Tommy be a couple in Earth 2 (I always thought she had the best chemistry with him - I wish they had kept him around).  I'd even enjoy it if Tommy and Laurel were Earth 2's Green Arrow and Black Canary complete with the comic book romance and everything.  But that would probably make some comic fans heads explode. :)

They really should do an E-2 one-off episode of Arrow. Too bad it's only s4 this year, so we won't get the 100th episode, otherwise, it would be a great place to get some of the major characters who are dead/gone by using their alt-versions. Tommy, Moira, Slade, Shado, all of the current cast... That could be really fun. Hell, I'd watch multiple episodes of that. OTOH, on The Flash, while something like this does happen currently I just don't give a damn about their alternates because those characters are mostly very one-dimensional compared to Arrow.

Edited November 5, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

In my fantasy world all this Laurel glossing over and forgiveness, BFF crap is because she dies. They need get sympathy for her so we'll care when she dies. They have failed but I'm hoping all this was their intention. Laurel is not in any way shape or form Black Canary so killing her off would not be killing of a comic character. Just a dead weight character.

[Ann Mack]

Love this recap/review of the episode:

 

http://ah-maa-zing.tumblr.com/post/132596945689/arrow-404-haunted

[nksarmi]

Yea I mean it's a clever device on Flash but I so want to see Arrow drink from that really deep well of alternative storylines of Earth 2.  Maybe even if they close the rifts on Flash, one can open up for Arrow characters at some point.

[FurryFury]

In my fantasy world all this Laurel glossing over and forgiveness, BFF crap is because she dies. They need get sympathy for her so we'll care when she dies. They have failed but I'm hoping all this was their intention. Laurel is not in any way shape or form Black Canary so killing her off would not be killing of a comic character. Just a dead weight character.

Yeah, I also had the same thought, but then they're doing kind of the same for Quentin. And a part of me suspects that if they didn't kill Laurel off before, like in say s2 or 3, they wouldn't do it, they like her too much for whatever reason. Plus, we all know they have a hard-on for masks. So it's totally Quentin. 

[Ann Mack]

 

Just want to keep watching this scene and how they are clutching and holding on to each for dear life. I can just imagine Florence and The Machine playing in the background (Never Let Me Go) I could even take Zedd (Clarity) although Oliver and Felicity are no way a tragedy I just love both of these damn songs! 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ann Mack

[Carrie Ann]

I wish E2 Star City had no vigilantes but really needed one! Even a third-rate one! And LL could answer that call. Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world! Even other worlds! So brave and selfless. Single tear! BYE!

[dtissagirl]

Love this recap/review of the episode:

 

http://ah-maa-zing.tumblr.com/post/132596945689/arrow-404-haunted

 

Thanks for the link -- this is an insanely great read on the episode.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Bless you, dear Curtis, for being one of the few people who knows that the correct past participle is "drunk," not "drank." The grammar nerd in me is in love with you now!

 

Oh, also, despite that very important classified file that suggests otherwise, I still don't think Diggle's brother is dead. 

I'm going to just start typing ridiculous stories, print them out, put them in file folders, and start claiming that it's classified information which has been verified by the local police department.

 

I'm going to need to know more about the hijinks of Oliver Queen and John Constantine. They've clearly been in contact since the island since they've exchanged phone numbers and Constantine knew exactly who was calling him.

 

What adventures did they have? I need to know!

To quote Buffy, "there could be oil of some kind involved."

 

As per usual, Laurel can STFU.

 

I didn't know whether to laugh or roll my eyes when Quentin just drove up into the new Bat Cave.

Edited November 5, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Angel12d]

Love this recap/review of the episode:

 

http://ah-maa-zing.tumblr.com/post/132596945689/arrow-404-haunted

 

This was great. And it really does feel like they're giving everyone closure, or at least giving a level of 'peace' to Oliver's relationships with everyone and then we'll get that 'earned' and 'organic' death. Okay, show.

[tv echo]

Loved Constantine. Loved Diggle and Quentin working together. Loved the "This is your overlord, Felicity Smoak" line.  Loved Oliver & Felicity sitting on the sofa just talking and clasping hands. Loved Curtis' manic energy. Loved Sara's beatdown of everything in her path.

 

The Nanda Parbat sequence of fighting phantom LOA members and pulling Sara out of the LP was clunky and looked a bit silly.  I never watched Constantine so I don't know what the guy's fighting skills are supposed to be, but having him fight with a sword seemed like a 'thank you' to MR by giving him some fun stunts.

 

The several Laurel speeches that I believe were meant to make us feel that she was a sympathetic victim and understand her pain would've been more effective if her accusations had any merit - and if I hadn't watched the past 3+ seasons.  For example (source):

Why didn't you come to me with this?
Come to you for what? Your expertise with magical resurrection? Or that judgmental look on your face?
For help finding her, Laurel, before she gets hurt, or she hurts anyone else. And if I have a judgmental look on my face right now, it's because you played with forces that you do not understand, and now people are dying because of it.

Why didn't you tell me you took Thea?
What does that have to do with anything?! It's the hypocrisy that I can't stand!
What?
It's ok for you to do whatever you have to for your sister, but it's not ok for me to do the same to mine?
Sara was dead. Thea wasn't.
Then why didn't you tell me about Thea seven months ago? [scoffs] Because you don't see me as an equal.
What? Oh, come on. Laurel, of course I see you as an equal.
No, you don't! You never have. You never told me that you were the Arrow -
Keep your voice down! ...
- Becoming the Black Canary, and you never would have told me that there's a way to save my sister. My sister, she's out of her mind right now. Because of something that I did. A decision that I made. Did you ever just stop and think for one second about what I might be going through? I'm sorry about what happened to Thea. I really am. I love your family-- I always have. I just wish that sometimes you would give a damn about mine.

About what I said before--
You said some things that you meant.

Ollie... I don't know how I'm ever going to be able to thank you.
Just like that.
[Chuckles] Well, thank you. And thank you for inviting me here tonight. After what I said to you in the hospital, I thought that I'd be the last person you'd want to see.
Well, you were right. I-- I haven't always been the best friend for you, but I--I'd be grateful for the opportunity to try and start to be.
[Chuckles] How can I say no to the man that helped me save my sister's soul? [Hug]

 

Laurel's accusations: (1) Oliver is a hypocrite because he did whatever he could to save Thea and objects to her doing the same to save Sara; (2) Oliver has never seen her as an equal because he never told her that he was the Arrow, because of his attitude toward her becoming the BC, and because he never told her there was a way to save Sara; (3) Oliver never considered what she was going through; and (4) Oliver doesn't give a damn about the Lance family, while Laurel has always loved the Queen family.

 

I'm going to skip over (1), because that's been discussed ad nauseum in this forum already (Thea wasn't dead and could be saved, while Sara couldn't be saved because she had already died so it was a matter of resurrecting her),* and (3), because the self-centeredness of that statement by Laurel is obvious.

 

(* Oliver has been a hypocrite in other ways, but not in this matter - the one she's calling him out on - imo.)

 

Regarding (2), when it comes to fighting skills, Laurel is not Oliver's equal.  She's had about one year's worth of training, while he's had several years of intensive training.  His objection to her fighting was because he didn't want to see her get hurt.  As for not telling her he was the Arrow, when he returned to Starling City, she was extremely hostile to him and later actively hunted him down as the vigilante; he was suffering from PTSD and closed off.  He never told his mother, Moira, that he was the vigilante either, and I'm sure he considers her an equal.  As for not telling her there was a way to save Sara, Oliver didn't think the LP could be used to resurrect someone who's been dead and buried a year.

 

Regarding (4), Laurel's family consists largely of Quentin and Sara (forget about Dinah, the EPs have).  I doubt that Laurel is referring to Oliver's feelings for Quentin in this instance (although he has shown care for Quentin in the past), so she's really talking about Oliver not caring enough about Sara to use the LP to save her.  Aside from the irony(?) that it was too much love for Sara that led Oliver to sister-swap a few times in the past, Laurel's accusation is ridiculous.  Sara's beloved, Nyssa, never asked Ra's to use the LP to bring Sara back and objected to Laurel doing so.  Does that mean Nyssa didn't give a damn about Sara? And we have seen ample evidence of Oliver caring for both Laurel and Sara, as well as Quentin, in the past.  (Also remember that, last season, Oliver told Quentin that he has always loved the Lance family, and Quentin punched him.)  Maybe the hidden meaning behind this accusation by Laurel is that she thinks Oliver doesn't give enough of a damn about her.*

 

(* Laurel saying that she has always loved Oliver's family just made me think of the flashback where Laurel was dreaming of becoming Mrs. Oliver Queen and joining the Queen family.)

 

I feel like Laurel talking at Oliver and Oliver just passively taking it and then appeasing her is something that happened a lot back when they were dating.

 

I think Laurel has finally realized that she doesn't know Oliver to his bones.  No longer in denial, she has moved on to anger. Laurel's anger at Oliver all boils down to the fact that she's no longer the Most Important Person In the World to him.  She's not as close to him as she used to be (and wants to be).  She's not as trusted by him as she used to be (and wants to be).  She's not as loved by him as she used to be (and wants to be).

 

Finally, if Constantine needed two people who would bring out the best in Sara, they should've picked Quentin and Felicity.  Instead, they went with Oliver and Laurel - two people who should remind Sara of a lot of the bad things that happened to her in life (sisterly betrayal on both sides, sister-swapping, 'dying' in the shipwreck, ending up a League assassin). Instead, they went with the masks.

 

P.S.  Thea said to Oliver "you have been in love with Laurel and Sara", therefore putting the two sisters in the same category.  Personally, I don't believe he was in love with either sister, but did love them as far as it was possible for him to love as either cheating, pre-island Ollie or still-recovering-from-PTSD, post-island Oliver.  I just think that Thea has this romanticized view of her beloved brother being in love with two women in order to justify his cheating on one sister with the other sister.

Edited November 6, 2015 by tv echo

[Ann Mack]

Apparently people are calling the number and they get a reply. I imagine a pre-recorded message?

Just called it after I read this and yes you get a message from "John Constantine" himself that is awesome and ends with "cheers". Cheeky bastards for thinking that one up!

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ann Mack

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I also had the same thought, but then they're doing kind of the same for Quentin. And a part of me suspects that if they didn't kill Laurel off before, like in say s2 or 3, they wouldn't do it, they like her too much for whatever reason. Plus, we all know they have a hard-on for masks. So it's totally Quentin. 

 

Let me live in my fantasy world! 

 

And it's probably Quentin. While he has his issues he's still better than Laurel. 

[apinknightmare]

Finally, if Constantine needed two people who would bring out the best in Sara, they should've picked Quentin and Felicity. Instead, they went with Oliver and Laurel - two people who should remind Sara of a lot of the bad things that happened to her in life (sisterly betrayal on both sides, sister-swapping, 'dying' in the shipwreck, ending up a League assassin).

"Bringing out the best" in Sara wasn't a requirement for going on that little vision quest. All Constantine said was that Thea shouldn't go, because Sara had spent all episode trying to kill her. Someone Sara's driven to kill by virtue of supernatural hot tub rules is probably not the person who should be sent to bring her back to herself.

[looptab]

Oliver's real motivation for doing what she accuses him for is simply, as others have said, that she's crazy. Not telling her he was the Arrow or not telling her about the Lazarus Pit has nothing to do with equality, in my opinion. 

[nksarmi]

I loved this episode but I do wish they had found time for an emotional beat or two when saving Sara's soul.  Like Oliver could have jumped into the hot tub and been surrounded with visions of the ocean and trying to find Sara after the Gambit.  And Laurel should have flashed to seeing herself and Sara as children and then to their jealousy over Oliver.  Ending with Laurel telling Sara she loves her and doesn't care about the past and needs her to come back and Oliver telling Sara that he's sorry he left her and failed to protect her.  I just think the resurrection lacked some emotional punch.  Otherwise, I loved watching Constantine fight with the sword lol.

Edited November 5, 2015 by nksarmi

[nksarmi]

I loved this episode but I do wish they had found time for

[apinknightmare]

Oliver's real motivation for doing what she accuses him for is simply, as others have said, that she's crazy. Not telling her he was the Arrow or not telling her about the Lazarus Pit has nothing to do with equality, in my opinion.

Yeah, he didn't tell her he was the Arrow in S1 because she hated his guts at first, so who knows what she would've done. In S2, she was anti-Arrow, and sicced the police on him, so...sound reasoning there. He didn't tell her about the pit because it seems like he was worried about her doing exactly what she did. Oliver definitely needed to be called out on his secret keeping, but it would've worked better from someone who didn't make his secret keeping look like solid decision making.

Edited November 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Imagine Oliver trying to have that conversation with Laurel in S1: "Look, I know you're super pissed at me for cheating on you with your sister and accidentally getting her killed, but I just wanted to let you know that I have been running around the city in a disguise and being a vigilante. Please don't tell anyone!"

[dtissagirl]

Was Laurel's assumption that Oliver had intentionally hid the pit information from her because he was legit trying to impede her from resurrecting Sara?

 

Because all I got from Oliver was that he never even thought it was possible for the pit to be used to resurrect dead & buried peoples.

 

Great communication there, guys!

Edited November 5, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

 

Just want to keep watching this scene and how they are clutching and holding on to each for dear life. I can just imagine Florence and The Machine playing in the background (Never Let Me Go) I could even take Zedd (Clarity) although Oliver and Felicity are no way a tragedy I just love both of these damn songs!

 

But where's the gif where he literally stumbles into her arms? That's a moment of beauty.

 

Bless you, dear Curtis, for being one of the few people who knows that the correct past participle is "drunk," not "drank." The grammar nerd in me is in love with you now!

 .

God yes. I'm often annoyed by the grammar on this show but I have to admit Curtis has put himself in the spotlight and I'll be paying extra attention to him. Do me proud.

  

Just called it after I read this and yes you get a message from "John Constantine" himself that is awesome and ends with "cheers". Cheeky bastards for thinking that one up!

So what does it say?

[bethy]

I feel like Laurel talking at Oliver and Oliver just passively taking it and then appeasing her is something that happened a lot back when they were dating.

 

 

Good point. And we've actually seen that, haven't we? When Laurel was talking about moving in together? So this is really Oliver dealing with Laurel the way he always has. Agree for the sake of peace and then go do what (or who, back then) he wants. Interesting. 

 

I hated that Oliver said he's going to try to be a better friend to her when there was no acknowledgement of what a crappy friend Laurel's been to him the last several years. I continue to love this new, humbler Oliver. And, for me, they're not doing any of the other characters any favors when they don't recognize how he's changed.

 

And as someone said earlier, if the piling on about Oliver's hypocrisy had been last year, I would have been much more sympathetic to both Laurel and Thea. But at the moment they both come across as petulant teenagers who can't see past their own hurt feelings. Thea has the advantage of still being a teenager (or at least only a year out of her teens). Laurel has no excuse at all. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by bethy

[Chaos Theory]

This show is never going to make sense and I am cool with that. I am also cool with the fact that I am one of probably five people who really likes Laurel although not so much during this episode.

Oliver's reaction to Sara being alive was weird but I did like the show acknowledging that the two families had a complicated and long history.

[Angel12d]

I did find it hilarious that Laurel was okay with Sara going around hurting people in the city but the moment she turned on her Laurel was like 'NO! I have to put her down!'

 

Aw. Such sisterly bond. Much love.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Angel12d

[paigow]

Imagine Oliver trying to have that conversation with Laurel in S1:

When did Oliver tell Laurel that Sara did not drown? And eventually met her on the freighter of doom? 

[Sakura12]

That is so Laurel. She only cares when it directly involves her. 

 

Thea seemed to care more about saving Sara's soul than Laurel. She offered her life to help Sara, she offered her self as bait and she was the first to volunteer to get Sara's soul back. I'll forgive her for her Laurel's so amazing and awesome speech because everyone had one of those. Sara's turn is probably next week. 

[Ann Mack]

 

But where's the gif where he literally stumbles into her arms? That's a moment of beauty.

  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ann Mack

[kes0704]

You know, if you take Laurel out of the vision quest scene nothing changes. The same result of recovering Sara's soul could have been achieved with Oliver / Thea or Oliver / Quentin. Oliver was the key to saving Sara, not Laurel. All she did was create the problem in the first place.

But Laurel did claim partial credit for the save at the end of the episode, so there's that. If this is her character redemption arc, then it's not working for me.

[nksarmi]

It's funny because - to me - if you lose that "what about me" moment in the hospital, I actually think Laurel had some good moments this episode...

 

*I think her moment with Thea in the hospital where she really started to understand what the pit did to both of them and when she told Thea that losing her was no solution to saving Sara was nice.  The one thing I would have liked better is if in that moment Laurel said, "I don't understand, why is Sara after you? It's Malcolm's fault that you did that."  Because I really do think that a) Thea needs to be reminded that she didn't kill Sara by choice and b) we need to hear the characters blame Merlyn because it really is his fault.  Thea could have even explained it away with "It might have been Malcolm's brainwashing, but I was the one she saw kill her."

 

*I also thought some of the scene with Oliver in the hospital aisle worked.  I thought it was ok for Laurel to say "why didn't you tell me there was a way to save my sister?" because Laurel really doesn't know what Oliver knew and when he knew it.  I mean when he told her that she messed with forces she didn't understand - it would have been a good moment for her to say "That's because you keep all the shit you know locked up inside your head until plot reasons dictates that it comes out." Or you know - something like that.  Anyway, from Laurel's viewpoint, she might have thought that Oliver knew they could take Sara to the pit way back at the start of season three and just didn't tell her. Of course, Oliver fails to deliver the information that matter most in that instance "Laurel I had no idea about the pit until Thea was hurt and then I had no reason to believe it would work on the dead.  Don't you think I've lost loved ones that I would want to bring back if I could?  I didn't help you because I didn't know."

 

*I also didn't mind Laurel telling Oliver that he didn't treat her as an equal / didn't trust her.  I mean yes, there is the fact that they aren't equals.  But given their total history, what she really means is "you don't respect me, you never have."  If you ignore what she is saying - about Arrow and BC - and think about the way he cheated on, got another girl pregnant while they were together, stayed with her making her believe they would probably get married, and then eventually dragged her sister along for a sex cruise as a way of saying "nope, don't want to move in together" - then shit, she's right, he never did respect her. 

 

*For much the same reason, I also don't mind Laurel saying that he never gave a damn about her family.  Because while we know that post-island Oliver did care - pre-island Oliver really didn't.  There has to be dozens upon dozens of girls Oliver could have called to go on that cruise - probably even one of Laurel's friends.  But he went for the jugular and called her sister.  Then if you factor in the fact that Laurel lost her lover and sister on the boat ride and then watched her parent's marriage fall apart, her dad fall into the bottle, and her mom just up and leave - she has good reason to say that Oliver dicked over her family.  Now since he's been back, it's been better but considering they never worked through those issues - she never really got that blame out of her system - I can see why it's manifesting itself now that she thinks he could have saved Sara but didn't.

 

*Then I really liked her thanking him at the end for saving her sister's soul.  It really did seem real and like somehow symbolically all the blame and hate had passed and she was truly grateful to him.  It also felt like maybe they could actually BE friends - the only other time I felt that way was at the start of season three with the "you catch em, I'll fry em" approach before Sara died and everything went South for Laurel again.

 

Like I said before, I think if they had a cut some other stuff (I hate to say it but I think the best thing to have moved from this episode was probably the Diggle/Lance stuff - that could have probably waited till next week) and we had time for a couple of emotional moments in the quest to save Sara's soul, then the stuff at the end between Oliver and Laurel might have felt even more earned.

 

Other than really wanting to see Earth 2 Laurel with Tommy - I really hope that next season (because I don't think they will have time for it this year), she gets a comic book love interest.  I guess she has never really been paired with anyone but GA, but I still wouldn't mind them brining someone for her to connect with so the friendship with Oliver can be more believable.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by nksarmi

[arjumand]

Ugh. My vocabulary is stuck on Ugh.

Not only did Thea wax nostalgically about Laurel, but she pointedly reminded him that QL has been such a great help to them since their mom died. What. The. Flying. Fuck?!? Does Thea completely forget his senseless vendetta against her brother mere months ago?! Does she forget that Roy is in self-exile because of QL?!?

 

 

OH. MY. GOD. Ohmygod. What.

 

When I heard that, I sincerely felt like I'd started hearing things.

 

Someone on io9 once said that their favourite part of Arrow was when Oliver made that expression like his head was full of bees, and seriously, now was the the time for that expression, Amell!

 

Now was the time for someone to ask Thea if she'd left her marbles in Nanda Parbat.

 

Not only was Quentin Lance responsible for Oliver being hounded and arrested, for Roy having to turn himself in to take the heat off, he's also completely responsible for Roy's 'death' and would have been if it had been real, also.

 

Let me explain my point: when a cop is arrested, they're not put with the people they themselves arrested! If they're sentenced and go to prison, they're not put in the general population, where any guy they put in there can take them out!

 

So, when Quentin was happy to put Roy, whom he knew to be a fake Arrow, in with every Tom Dick and Harry which the Arrow had put away, he had to have known that was painting a massive target on Roy's back. And yes, he did it so that Oliver would give himself up, but he was sincerely gambling with Roy's life.

 

See, in my version of Thea, she's intelligent enough to realise this. But apparently the real Thea isn't.

 

So, are we doing active retconning here? Are we just erasing chunks of season 3, just because we want people to be sad if Quentin is in that coffin? For fuck's sake.

 

I keep going back to that line, and I keep asking myself: WHAT HELP? WHAT HELP DID QUENTIN PROVIDE? He gave a press conference where he outed Oliver and he advised the cops that Oliver was armed and dangerous (which is tantamount to saying, "shoot on sight"). HOW IS THAT HELPING?

 

Oh lord. I have hypertension, you guys. Don't do this to me.

 

P.S. Flashbacks were ok, Constantine was good, Sara revival was eh, ok, I guess.

Edited November 5, 2015 by arjumand

[lexicon]

You know, if you take Laurel out of the vision quest scene nothing changes. The same result of recovering Sara's soul could have been achieved with Oliver / Thea or Oliver / Quentin. Oliver was the key to saving Sara, not Laurel. All she did was create the problem in the first place.

But Laurel did claim partial credit for the save at the end of the episode, so there's that. If this is her character redemption arc, then it's not working for me.

 

uhh yeah it does...without it we'd be short one epic GA/BC team up, that is totally, absolutely, not fanservice.

 

Snark aside, rescuing Sara from the Lazarus Pit of doom really seemed like just a one person job so either LL or OQ could've done it alone without any need for the other. It was that underwhelming.

[WaitandHope]

So I coach little girls soccer, and there is a girl on our team named Lauren (close enough) and she is always saying "What about meeee?" I'll probably not be able to get through another practice without laughing out loud and thinking of this episode's hallway scene. Thanks a lot guys!

Edited November 5, 2015 by WaitandHope