S02.E04: Skanks Get Shanked

[Artsda]

Nate's wife is Traci Nash from Rookie Blue! I was trying to figure out where I knew her from.

 

I'm all for team Connor sabotage and makes sense Laurel would be the one to see through the teen girl pyscho killer and not believe her. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Artsda

[cooksdelight]

I just want someone to take Wes out.  He's annoying and I don't get why he was so obsessed with Rebecca except that she fucked him.  Was Wes a virgin before he met Rebecca?

Probably. And I'm still putting money on Annalise being his real momma.

[krimimimi]

Annalise obviously found out about Wes and Nate talking. Wes now knows that Annalise helped murder Rebecca, and maybe Nate's wife will die as well, and Nate will think Annalise did it. So they both gang up to take her out, but pin it on light-eyes?

Wes may suspect that Annalise helped murder Rebecca, but he doesn't know it. Especially because she didn't help murder her, she just helped the murderer get away with it. Which is apparently fine by him as long as he's the murdering so and so being helped, but not if it's somebody else... gah. (Okay, fine, the difference is that with Rebecca it's the death of someone he luuuurves. But I didn't see them thinking a whole lot about Annalise's feelings last season, so I am having problems drumming up understanding for his right now.) I have come to really dislike Wes. He's my top candidate for next person to off, please. Pretty please. Show?

 

 

Totally agree that the thing with Nate's wife felt like a set up. Glad Annalise didn't fall for it. Or go there anyway, whichever. Probably both. Not sure if it was an effort on Nia's part to gather evidence to clear Nate, or to screw with their possible future having found Annalise less than desirable given the situation she got Nate into. I did like that they allowed Nia to have a clue and showed indications of a good relationship between her and Nate. (I think Nate would have been the most likely source for her info on Frank's presumed connections, so they are obviously talking a great deal.) I also liked that she was okay with her husband's affair. Sex isn't the only aspect of love, and it sure seemed like there was love there. I liked that, sad as their storyline is.

 

As to Wes and Nate getting spotted at the hospital, I thought that was pretty fair, as they had already shown Wes seeking Nate out there once already this episode, and Wes had no way of knowing that Annalise had been there to see Nate's wife. (And Nate had no idea she would be likely to return, as he (probably) was in the dark about his wife's request for pills.) Nate doesn't control where Idiotpuppy pops up. And even as stupid as they've shown Wes to be, he really shouldn't be seen staking Nate out at the station, or he's going to bring heat back onto the search for a murderer who is actually his own dumb self, so points to him for maybe getting that on some level.

 

The Asher situation really bugs me for two reasons. Firstly, he's got zero info that's worth cutting a deal on anything serious enough to make him sweat like this. And secondly even getting a pass on the Trotter Lake affair should in no way justify the completely illegal spy work prosecutor smugface has Asher doing on Annalise's other cases. How on earth do you work that into a plea deal? Or is the idea that he agrees to turn over all info related to Sam's death for a Trotter pass, and will no longer be a mole for other cases having been granted immunity and freed of the blackmail? Because this interference with the clients' right to fair representation is really really upsetting me. Enough that I might be okay with DA smugface biting it before Wes even, but only barely. I keep waiting for her to make some quip about Annalise jonesing for junk food that will clue Annalise in to the situation, but maybe Bonnie will sort it. (Possibly lethally, come to think about it.)

 

In the list of who did what above, we should probably include Michaela and Connor, and next tier Rebecca and Laurel and technically Nate in the felony murder of Sam. In fact it was pretty much everybody but Frank & Bonnie and Annalise & Asher. If Trotter Lake was a wrongful death situation, perversely that would make Annalise the only one currently not guilty... Go figure.

[represent]

 

I love how the parents don't seem to be concerned at all that their kid is a psycho-killer, just that Anni wasn't able to work a miracle.

They're idiots, she would have killed them next. She's a killer, period.

 

I remember Kramer telling Seinfeld that he would turn him in if he murdered someone and Jerry was completely surprised. Kramer told him, yes, because you might end up killing me too.

 

Mother/child my ass too, I'm turning you in. I'll come visit you every weekend,  I wouldn't want the death penalty, and would champion some kind of mental health facility even, but you, my dear child of mine, need to be off the street.  

 

But that mother was just like her daughter, she was a fucking mean girl and probably did some fucking tormenting of her peers herself, back in her day, it just never resulted in murder. She was disgusting and the father was nothing but a putz.

Edited October 16, 2015 by represent

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Yes, He's Covered In Blood...But Can You Just Flirt A Little?
Michaela's latest terrible boyfriend makes How To Get Away With Murder extra weird this week.

[represent]

Does anyone know what Laurel was saying on that phone call or who she might have been speaking with?

[Artsda]

Does anyone know what Laurel was saying on that phone call or who she might have been speaking with?

She was speaking with the teen cousin about the app. 

[Glade]

The case of the week has been the subject of dozens of lifetime movies, and we didn't get anything deeper then that here. 

 

Personally I think that Nea was wearing a wire, and trying to entrap Analise.  That statement about Sam, trying to elicit a confession out of her even if she didn't supply the pills, was telling.  Personally I don't judge the fact that during a gut-wrenchingly difficult and traumatic time in his life, watching his wife hooked up to tubes and dying, Nate had needs and sought emotional relief with someone else.

 

Seeing Analise put into the ambulence during flash-forwards really kills the tension, if there ever was any (since I didn't believe the main character/award winning actress would actually die.)  I'm not really liking Nate's involvement in it either, I'm bored with him, I miss Famke. 

[Eolivet]

I liked this episode better than the last. Sadly, it was due to the lack of Asher. I hope I never have to hear the words "Trotter Lake" again, though I'm happy Bonnie was onto him at the end. "Asher's got a secret" does nothing for this show.

 

I agree with others who thought Nia was completely sincere in her desire to die, and for Annalise to help her. I can't think everyone on this show has some evil ulterior motive, so if they're not a regular or recurring character, I think there's still hope for them to be decent people.

 

I think the show put forth a good argument -- or a good red herring -- that Levi (or whoever) shot Annalise. Especially since he's determined to get to the bottom of Who Killed Rebecca, and thinks Annalise did it. Hey, Sam's murder had a pretty obvious killer in retrospect -- I'm guessing this one might, too. (and then he can be the next season's murder mystery!).

[wanderingstar]

Connor was a fool to mess with one of Annalise's cases. But he is absolutely right about the cult-like hold she has over all of them. He should know, as he was the first of the K4 to use illegal means to help her win a case - and get her approval.

[RedInk]

I can't think of a single reason why Anni would consider directly helping NW by handing her pills.

Oh, agreed! I don't think it would be in character for Anni to actually help. I just thought it might be reasonable that Nate's wife would think she would. She said herself that Anni had access, opportunity, and had killed before...rounded out by "you owe me this." She doesn't know much about her & took a shot.

Or, like everyone else thinks, it was a setup. No one on this show has pure motives, I guess.

Edited October 16, 2015 by RedInk

[Chicago Redshirt]

One thing I was wondering: Anni told Nia (Nate's wife, apparently) essentially that she is hella suicidal. Like she thinks about killing herself basically every day, IIRC.

 

I'm trying to figure out if that is actually true, or if it was just more manipulation and lies. 

 

On the one hand, it's fairly clear that she's got deep issues from being a victim of sexual abuse, from having perceived herself as a broken or bad person, from thinking her mom had abandoned her, etc. 

 

On the other hand, we up to this point have not seen any sign of that extreme and ongoing a set of suicidal tendencies. 

 

Thoughts?

[Fredward]

Definitely on team Connor with this one. Annalise is a deplorable human being. She's a deplorable human being with incredibly shitty self-worth which she probably has because she does awful things routinely (which she probably does because it gets results and makes her feel in control/powerful, YAY FOR LOOPS), to help stabilize her and her awful, awful cycle of absolutely moral bankruptcy she ropes in people around her. As long as she can make people need her and 'protect' them she has that ittie teeny bit of 'I'm actually a good person!' to cling on to. Nevermind the fact that all too often they're in that position because of her or that 'helping' them makes her not do the world a favor and kill herself.

 

In other news: between Connor, Levi and Caleb my fucking. Brain. Melts. The blonde girl was also really beautiful. And random shout out to the prosecutor this week for actually not being blown away by VD's performance.

 

Also, Caleb COULD have been asking about his sister since she is conspicuously absent. I also think she looked waaay too satisfied coming out of the doctor's office.

 

Bonnie better either have a very tragic past that Annalise saved her from or be portrayed as at least a bit mentally unstable cuz that level of loyalty is whack. Maybe both. Preferably both.

 

Nia's saintliness has been mentioned before so I don't think her primary motivation was to make Annalise look like shit, I'm sure that might have been in the back of her head somewhere but overall I think her motives where those she gave.

 

Liked the case of the week, parents were insane. Seriously who watches their kid say those things and then still a) want her to go free and b) immediately run after her as if concerned about her safety. They should be afraid for everyone else's.

 

Anyone else get the impression at least some of the people in the car were hoping AK would just check out already? Maybe I'm projecting. Almost assuredly since if I was Connor I wouldn't have been trying to stop the bleeding but rather poking my finger in there to make the hole bigger.

[cooksdelight]

Could it be leading up to what we're seeing as Annalise bleeding on the floor?

[possibilities]

RE whether Annalise is suicidal, I would not be surprised if she was. She's a raging alcoholic, she has no real friends and trusts no one (except maybe Frank?). I don't see her getting any joy out of her wins in court, it's like she does it because it's what she does, but it's kind of rote for her. She's never really shown to be feeling anything but stress, whether it's barking at her interns to get the evidence she needs, or crying about how she wants Nate back, or begging her ex to take his defense. She is dragging herself through the motions, and is surrounded by murderers and liars and people who she does not respect and who don't respect her but feel trapped in her orbit. She sees the ones she thought she did have some power over (Nate and Wes) colluding behind her back. Her minions are going off script and under-mining her or killing for her or who the hell knows what else. Asher didn't show up for work and she didn't even notice. I don't think she really feels in control anymore, so much as she's desperately trying to cling to the hope of gaining some kind of control back now that it's been lost, because what else can she do? Even the people she's protecting don't feel appreciation or loyalty towards her. It's pretty grim.

 

She might have been a bit happier in the past. But things have spun out pretty badly as the show has progressed. We rarely see her relax or smile at all anymore, and she's always playing catch up and putting out fires and discovering betrayals.

[represent]

Did she actually say she felt suicidal since she was the age of five?

Does a five year old even grasp the concept of suicide? They don't really understand death much less taking your own life.

 

Jeesh, that's so tragic. What a sad life thus far...

 

Actually, is that when the molestation started with the uncle? Probably, and lord knows what else?

Edited October 16, 2015 by represent

[wanderingstar]

A couple of other notes from this episode:

 

• We still don't know where Asher is on the Night of the Fancy Mansion.
• Likewise, we haven't yet seen Catherine's whereabouts that night.
• It's interesting that Connor - who seemed to be the most cutthroat of the students in the pilot - has become the conscience of this group*
• Annalise saying she thinks about suicide a lot was chilling (especially considering she began the episode immersed under water in her bathtub)
• I still don't know if Nate can be trusted. Billy Brown agrees with me.

 

 

*Well, as much as this group can have a conscience.

[secnarf]

 

When light-eyes says, "Is she okay?" And Michaela lies and says, "yes" I guess we can assume he's referring to Annalise.

 

No, I absolutely do not think that we can assume this. Caleb could just as easily be referring to Catherine, or possibly the prosecutor, or another character we haven't met yet. He *might* be referring to Annalise, but I don't think that's an assumption we can safely make at this point.

 

The case of the week has been the subject of dozens of lifetime movies, and we didn't get anything deeper then that here. 

 

Personally I think that Nea was wearing a wire, and trying to entrap Analise.  That statement about Sam, trying to elicit a confession out of her even if she didn't supply the pills, was telling.  Personally I don't judge the fact that during a gut-wrenchingly difficult and traumatic time in his life, watching his wife hooked up to tubes and dying, Nate had needs and sought emotional relief with someone else.

 

Seeing Analise put into the ambulence during flash-forwards really kills the tension, if there ever was any (since I didn't believe the main character/award winning actress would actually die.)  I'm not really liking Nate's involvement in it either, I'm bored with him, I miss Famke. 

I definitely judge Nate for having an affair while his wife is dying. At that point, it's his job to be there for his wife, not to bail and have an affair.

However, I totally agree that I'm not really liking Nate's involvement and I really really really miss Famke. I think I read somewhere that

she did at least three episodes, but we've only seen her in two, so hopefully she comes back at some point.

 

One thing I was wondering: Anni told Nia (Nate's wife, apparently) essentially that she is hella suicidal. Like she thinks about killing herself basically every day, IIRC.

 

I'm trying to figure out if that is actually true, or if it was just more manipulation and lies. 

 

On the one hand, it's fairly clear that she's got deep issues from being a victim of sexual abuse, from having perceived herself as a broken or bad person, from thinking her mom had abandoned her, etc. 

 

On the other hand, we up to this point have not seen any sign of that extreme and ongoing a set of suicidal tendencies. 

 

Thoughts?

I have thought before that she was suicidal. And there was something that happened earlier this season - a conversation in episode 3 (I think) with either Bonnie or Frank that made me really think she was suicidal***. I have had an extraordinarily long and difficult day and I can't remember exactly what that conversation was right now, though :P

 

Did she actually say she felt suicidal since she was the age of five?

Does a five year old even grasp the concept of suicide? They don't really understand death much less taking your own life.

 

Jeesh, that's so tragic. What a sad life thus far...

 

Actually, is that when the molestation started with the uncle? Probably, and lord knows what else?

Unfortunately yes, young kids do grasp the concept. Most kids at that age understand that you can be injured badly enough to die, most also have a reasonable understanding of what being dead means. They can also start to understand the concept of wanting to be dead, and from there it's not such a leap to put these concepts together. I knew a seven-year-old who tried to kill herself by stabbing herself in the heart with a kitchen knife after the death of a family member. She did a pretty poor job of it and her injuries weren't life-threatening, which you might expect from a seven-year-old, but it was pretty sad to see because the intent was definitely there.

I'm not sure if we know when the molestation started, though.

***Edited to add: Upon re-watch of episode 2, I found the scene I was thinking of. It's with Annalise and Bonnie, when Annalise says "You needed to be saved from me. And that's what you all need. So maybe today was a good thing, you know? Lock me up. That way you can all finally be safe."

Also, what in the world does Asher think the rest of the students know about Sam's death? He mentioned that he noticed all of the whispering that everyone was doing, and apparently he took it to mean that Annalise killed Sam, but what about the other students?

Edited October 17, 2015 by secnarf

[HalcyonDays]

I think she hoped Annalise would get caught, fingerprints, pills, whatever...and go to prison for murdering her lover's wife.

 

I never even thought of it! But I think you might be right. I mean, I will be honest - I think Mia(?) should be given the chance to decide her life - but then I guess she could technically stop treatment and go home to die. She seemed so genuine though, and in pain (from the cancer and side effects). I never thought of this one, but yeah, for sure. I thought Annalise would be smarted than that.

 

Damn emotions.

[cooksdelight]

If not Annalise, then Nate... one of them is going to go down for killing her.

[djsunyc]

imho, nate and the gang are framing analise for killing the da making the 2nd half of the season be analise on trial. i could really care less about the siblings.

[twoods]

Psycho parents make psycho kids. That mom was absolutely nuts to still want her daughter go free, even after seeing that video. Wouldn't you want to protect others from her? I love Conner for handing in the video. How do criminal defense attorneys sleep at night?

Nate continues to confuse me. He's obviously calling Anni frantically, then he's calm and talking to the others about how everything is going to be ok. I also think that Caleb is talking about the DA, and has no clue that Anni got shot.

I love you Wes, but you are continually doing dumb things. Stop it!

I love Bonnie and Asher, and hate how they made Bonnie Rebecca's killer. Her presence still sucks, even if she's dead.

Love seeing Traci from Rookie Blue as Nate's wife. As always, the actress was fantastic.

Edited October 17, 2015 by twoods

[darkestboy]

Another great episode. This season has been on fire so far.

 

Michaela eventually getting involved with Caleb does seem like Wes/Rebecca all over again but I'm confident the show will take it in a different direction though.

 

I'm not sure if both Caleb/Catherine are innocent of killing their parents but it's an interesting case nonetheless though.

 

The main case this week was pretty solid, especially for Laurel finding out the girl's guilt and Connor making sure that everyone else knew it as well.

 

The scene with Connor and Annalise was one of my favourite this week as well as Annalise's scenes with Nate's wife. I hope we see the latter again.

 

Quite liked the team ups with Wes/Levi and Wes/Nate though I can't see things turning out well with Levi later on.

 

Bonnie telling Asher that she killed Sam though was a bit extreme. Seriously what hold does Annalise actually have on her? 8/10

[Joimiaroxeu]

If not Annalise, then Nate... one of them is going to go down for killing her.

Nate's wife or the DA? I can't see the show trying to pin another death on Nate but I can see Annalise go down for killing the DA. I suspect it'll be because the wife dies unnaturally and the DA is about to charge Annalise with the crime. She's already set Annalise up to look like a jealous mistress and she knows it would look bad for her professionally to try to go after Nate again for yet another murder.

 

I'm getting impatient. When are we going to see nekkid Nate again?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Joimiaroxeu

[wanderingstar]

Yes, all the scenes with Nate fully clothed seem like trolling us. Stop teasing us, show!

[FuriousStyles]

I think she hoped Annalise would get caught, fingerprints, pills, whatever...and go to prison for murdering her lover's wife.

I had a similar thought. That the wife was trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Finally die, and then somehow get Annaliese in trouble. Either legally, or maybe somehow tell Nate who would absolutely HATE Annaliese forever if he ever found out she did that.

[Neurochick]

Definitely on team Connor with this one. Annalise is a deplorable human being. She's a deplorable human being with incredibly shitty self-worth which she probably has because she does awful things routinely (which she probably does because it gets results and makes her feel in control/powerful, YAY FOR LOOPS), to help stabilize her and her awful, awful cycle of absolutely moral bankruptcy she ropes in people around her. As long as she can make people need her and 'protect' them she has that ittie teeny bit of 'I'm actually a good person!' to cling on to. Nevermind the fact that all too often they're in that position because of her or that 'helping' them makes her not do the world a favor and kill herself.

 

 

I have to disagree.  I don't get what's so awful about her.  Last season she had a feeling that Sam killed Lila, which he did, indirectly.  Wes actually killed Sam, and Annalise basically covered for him.  Annalise could have called the police and told them Wes killed her husband, but she didn't.  

 

Now, what she did to Nate was totally wrong; but she did it to get the scent off of her group.   That, she was wrong about.  

 

I think that Annalise covered up something bad and now the hole keeps getting bigger and bigger.   

[rozen]

The actress who plays Catherine was on The Guild and I'm enjoying her in this role. The DA looks like a fucking Cheshire cat. The winter finale is going to be amazing.

 

OMG, that was *Tink* ??!!! *Runs around screaming* That is so cool. So unrecognizable without the sarcasm and the babies locked in random cages.

[tomatoflyer]

I've always been pretty neutral on Connor but I was totally cheering for him in this episode. I enjoyed this episode a lot more than last week.

[nutty1]

I finally watched the episode last night. This show never bores me!!

[FiveByFive]

Bonnie telling Asher that she killed Sam though was a bit extreme. Seriously what hold does Annalise actually have on her? 8/10

I think it's going to end up being a lot like Liv with the original Pope and Associates group.  They would do anything for Olivia because she did something huge for them in the past: she got Huck saneish and off the streets, helped Abby run away from her abuser, saved Quinn from being jailed for a bombing and got Harrison out of trouble.  They all felt like they owed her a deep debt because no one else would and could have helped them.  So while Bonnie telling Asher she killed Sam was extreme, at the end of the day, she didn't actually do it. It could land her in hot water but she's counting on him not saying a word. 

 

I took it from their conversation after she confessed she killed Rebecca that Bonnie feels she really owes Annalise.  While I can see why people think it might be more than that, this show has some "weird" obsessive relationships going on all around with Wes & Rebecca and Annalise & Wes so it may be just that simple.  Anyone in real life would interpret all of those relationships to be weird but on the show no one ever seems to call them out on their weirdness. I took Annalise's response essentially about not really saving Bonnie but dooming her as, "Yeah, I may have helped you but you should probably have gone your own way after instead of getting caught up in all of this and maybe I should have forced you out but I didn't and now you've killed on my behalf." 

 

Although this begs the question:  what the hell is Frank doing there?  We know he'd do anything for Annalise but he also seemed to feel the same way about Sam. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by FiveByFive

[atlanticslide]

When you were watching the scenes with Anni and Nate's wife, did Admiral Akbar pop up and yell, "IT'S A TRAP!"

 

Because it seems to me that there must be about a half-dozen ways that a cancer patient who wants to die could do that without involving Anni. (Stop taking meds/refuse treatment, OD on any of the various pills they give her, slit her wrists on an IV or any number of things, contact various right-to-die societies and have them help her out, contact her own friends/family (she must have some, right?) and have them get the pills).

Yeah, I found all of that pretty strange, including the fact that Annalise would entertain the idea of helping this woman kill herself. Refusing treatment isn't the same as being able to end your life when you want when you have a terminal illness and I can understand the desire to do so, but I'd think the first step would be to stop treatment and check yourself out of the hospital. She went on this big speech about how "this isn't a life," so why is she going through it?

[possibilities]

The interns NOT feeling that loyalty to Annalise is what makes it seem like Bonnie and Frank must have REALLY big skeletons in their closets. Annalise covered up for the interns, even framed Nate on their behalf. But they stay, not out of loyalty to her, but because they're too scared to leave. So Frank and Bonnie being around-- not seemingly out of fear but because they truly feel loyal to her-- makes the contrast beg for an explanation. It might just be that the interns are ungrateful brats (or that they have more conscience about what they did and would rather face consequences than be part of a cover up? Wes?) rather than that Annalise did more for Bonnie and Frank than for them. But we just don't know.

[krimimimi]

Refusing treatment isn't the same as being able to end your life when you want when you have a terminal illness and I can understand the desire to do so, but I'd think the first step would be to stop treatment and check yourself out of the hospital. She went on this big speech about how "this isn't a life," so why is she going through it?

Aside from the whole pain and ultimately dying thing, which: non-trivial, one of the really rough aspects of terminal illness is the loss of control. It's frightening how little control you have over basically anything at that point. (Connor's rant about brainwashing/cults/Annalise mirrors a lot of medical care facilities actually...) One of the things you can control, or at least greatly influence, is how people percieve you. Losing your shit and treating people like crap for six months can be all it takes to erase a lifetime of perfectly reasonable interactions. Keeping it together and putting on a brave and stoic face can go a long way to cementing your memory as an amazing human being who'll be sorely missed, and perhaps not surprisingly, a lot of folks care about that and want that for themselves.

Refusing care may be a logical step for a patient who has had enough, but families have a way of not understanding why anyone would do such a thing. They're faced with the prospect of a loss that they're trying to avoid, and generally aren't as taxed by treatment as the patient is, nor in as weakened a state. Refusing treatment can be seen as a form of betrayal, and it's a fight many patients prefer to avoid. So they go through the next round of whatever, hoping the doctors will eventually clue in and just lie to their families: sorry, there's nothing else we could do.

Anyway, I could buy Nia not wanting to be percieved as a "quitter" or disappointing Nate by bailing on her treatment, but I can also see her having enough at some point and throwing in the towel. It's all too human. (With the possible added bonus of getting Anni arrested, or ruining Anni's future wih Nate, or getting evidence to get Nate off the hook for Sam's murder, to boot. /cynicism)

The interns NOT feeling that loyalty to Annalise is what makes it seem like Bonnie and Frank must have REALLY big skeletons in their closets. Annalise covered up for the interns, even framed Nate on their behalf. But they stay, not out of loyalty to her, but because they're too scared to leave. So Frank and Bonnie being around-- not seemingly out of fear but because they truly feel loyal to her-- makes the contrast beg for an explanation. It might just be that the interns are ungrateful brats (or that they have more conscience about what they did and would rather face consequences than be part of a cover up? Wes?) rather than that Annalise did more for Bonnie and Frank than for them. But we just don't know.

I think that's a really good point and clever analysis of the situation, and it goes quite a way to explaining why certain dynamics seem weird to me as a viewer. But I also absolutely think the K-5 (and especially the murder-4) are spoiled, entitled brats, and that that plays a significant role in their ingratitude towards Annalise. So not so much that Frank and Bonnie have so much more to be grateful for, but that the murder 4 might tend to be less grateful even if receiving more. I suspect Frank and Bonnie are from humbler stock and probably more likely to be more appreciative of less than the kids are.

But I also wondered if there isn't a lot of denial or transference going on with them. Like if the DA says often enough that Anni was the killer, that clearly it must be true, and it can't have been them (the M-4). They are so desperate to not be murderers, that they can't grateful for her help, because that means admitting to themselves and effectively also to her in the process (a woman who could also transitively be considered another victim of theirs as they widowed her) that they are guilty. And at the moment that's more than a step too far for them.

Edited October 18, 2015 by krimimimi

[LNDNgirl]

I'm really going to have to start watching this show without any distractions.  I'm usually surfing the web or reading posts on here, and only half listening to what's actually happening on the show.  When mentioned earlier that Connor is the only one of the K4 with a conscience, I had no idea what that was in reference to.  Upon rewatching the episode, now I get it.

However, I have been unable to learn what happened at Trotter Lake (?) with Asher.  Has it been explained?  If so, can someone help me out?

[secnarf]

I'm really going to have to start watching this show without any distractions.  I'm usually surfing the web or reading posts on here, and only half listening to what's actually happening on the show.  When mentioned earlier that Connor is the only one of the K4 with a conscience, I had no idea what that was in reference to.  Upon rewatching the episode, now I get it.

However, I have been unable to learn what happened at Trotter Lake (?) with Asher.  Has it been explained?  If so, can someone help me out?

No, it has not been explained - right now all we have are our own speculations based on the little information that has been given so far.

[krimimimi]

Whatever it was, it has to be serious enough that the threat of exposure is worth running the risk of getting caught doing things that would pretty much keep him from being allowed to practice law. (Presumably breaking, definitely entering to get Anni's notes and misc. spying for the DA.)

(Assumptions: 1) that would be enough to get a lawyer disbarred? Pretty sure it's an egregious violation of privilege... and 2) You can't disbar a student, so they just wouldn't be admitted to the bar. Actually, I'd expect him to be expelled. Anyone?)

But given that DA Smugface is giving him a deal for the 0 info he has on Sam's death, she probably doesn't have any evidence.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I have to disagree.  I don't get what's so awful about her.

Anni lies, cheats and steals on a regular basis. Pretty much every case she has broken the law or ethical rules. Connor is basically correct in his assessment that she manipulates the people around her like a cult leader. The way she treats Bonnie in particular has seemed beyond harsh. In her personal life, she was committing adultery with the husband of a woman dying with cancer. Some people might consider that just flawed, but some people might think of that as making her a terrible person. 

 

Whatever it was, it has to be serious enough that the threat of exposure is worth running the risk of getting caught doing things that would pretty much keep him from being allowed to practice law. (Presumably breaking, definitely entering to get Anni's notes and misc. spying for the DA.)

(Assumptions: 1) that would be enough to get a lawyer disbarred? Pretty sure it's an egregious violation of privilege... and 2) You can't disbar a student, so they just wouldn't be admitted to the bar. Actually, I'd expect him to be expelled. Anyone?)

But given that DA Smugface is giving him a deal for the 0 info he has on Sam's death, she probably doesn't have any evidence.

 

I can't really speak definitively as to what punishments might be faced in the real world for some of the stuff the gang has pulled.

 

Since Asher is working for Anni as part of a class, she presumably would both fire and fail him if she found out that he stole her recorder to give it to the DA. Assuming he would still graduate, if he copped to taking the recorder on his petition to join the bar and gave a good enough rationale, my guess is they would let him pass the character and fitness portion.

 

I would think that what Connor did in turning over the incriminating video would be more of an obstacle to his passing the bar. He acted knowingly and directly against his client's interest in doing so. Whereas Asher may have just thought that the recording was harmless or had some sort of confession about killing Sam on it.

 

It could be that the DA would rather throw little fish back in the pond to catch big fish. Prosecuting Asher is not going to get her much in the way of props, especially since Asher might well have been a juvenile when Trotter Lake went down.

[discoprincess]

I have thought before that she was suicidal. And there was something that happened earlier this season - a conversation in episode 3 (I think) with either Bonnie or Frank that made me really think she was suicidal***. I have had an extraordinarily long and difficult day and I can't remember exactly what that conversation was right now, though :P

 

Unfortunately yes, young kids do grasp the concept. Most kids at that age understand that you can be injured badly enough to die, most also have a reasonable understanding of what being dead means. They can also start to understand the concept of wanting to be dead, and from there it's not such a leap to put these concepts together. I knew a seven-year-old who tried to kill herself by stabbing herself in the heart with a kitchen knife after the death of a family member. She did a pretty poor job of it and her injuries weren't life-threatening, which you might expect from a seven-year-old, but it was pretty sad to see because the intent was definitely there.

I'm not sure if we know when the molestation started, though.

***Edited to add: Upon re-watch of episode 2, I found the scene I was thinking of. It's with Annalise and Bonnie, when Annalise says "You needed to be saved from me. And that's what you all need. So maybe today was a good thing, you know? Lock me up. That way you can all finally be safe."

 

Annalise's confession about having felt suicidal made sense. Her molestation was revealed in season one. There was a period over on episode or two when Annalise basically barricaded herself in her bedroom and refused to get out of bed. She also called her mother, stating that she needed her. She wasn't faking that. While that may not be evidence that Annalise was feeling suicidal at that moment, but it was apparent that she felt her emotinal state spiraling out of control, and she couldn't maintain the "Annalise Keating, badass defense attorney" facade then.

 

Annalise apparently had a relationship with Nate's new lawyer back in law school. Maybe Annalise had to struggle with feelings about her sexuality (i.e. Was she gay or bi? Was it okay for her to be what she was)?

 

We also know that her husband Sam was her therapist at first. Something must have prompted her to seek therapy. (Having a therapist get involved with a patient is supposed to be a big no-no, so, it wouldn't surprise me if that had ramifications on Annalise's psyche at some point.)  

Edited October 19, 2015 by discoprincess

[April Bloodgate]

Anni lies, cheats and steals on a regular basis. Pretty much every case she has broken the law or ethical rules. Connor is basically correct in his assessment that she manipulates the people around her like a cult leader. The way she treats Bonnie in particular has seemed beyond harsh. In her personal life, she was committing adultery with the husband of a woman dying with cancer. Some people might consider that just flawed, but some people might think of that as making her a terrible person. 

This was the first episode where I really felt like I can't root for her anymore. She's just doing too many selfish things. And the way she threatened Connor was the final straw. Also, I know that they were trying to redeem her at the end when she wouldn't give Nate's wife the drugs, but that didn't make me think she was a good person. I believe that if someone who is terminally ill wants to die on their own terms, they should be allowed to do so. Giving her the drugs wouldn't have made me think any less of her, and not giving her the drugs doesn't make be think better of her. (I agree that it probably was a set-up though.)

[FuriousStyles]

I actually had no problem with the way Annaliese handled Connor. He can be as morally superior as he wants and look down on her, but she was right to check him on interfering with her cases. That is her livelihood...not only just being a lawyer but more importantly having a certain reputation as someone who can win big/difficult cases.

If Connor thinks defense attorneys (attorneys on boths sides actually) dont circumvent the rules and do questionable things and that he wouldnt do the same, then he should drop out now and find some other more noble profession....assuming his involvement in 2 murders dont come to light.

[discoprincess]

Also, I know that they were trying to redeem her at the end when she wouldn't give Nate's wife the drugs, but that didn't make me think she was a good person. I believe that if someone who is terminally ill wants to die on their own terms, they should be allowed to do so. Giving her the drugs wouldn't have made me think any less of her, and not giving her the drugs doesn't make be think better of her. (I agree that it probably was a set-up though.)

As Annalise would say, "We're not monsters!" She may have reached a turning point after framing Nate and then trying to undo the damage. As far as we know, she hasn't killed anyone yet, nor have ordered a hit-not even for her own husband. Many people around her have (including her husband and her own mother). That may be one line that even she won't cross.

 

She also didn't definitively answer the question posed by Nate's wife: did Annalise love Nate? Maybe she doesn't love Nate enough to set them all free (if we were to buy his wife's argument).  

[Nanrad]

Whether or not Connor is right about Annalise, I can't buy his self pitying, we're in a cult mantra. 

 

Because the only reason Connor is "under control" of Annalise is because of the murder Wes committed that him and the two others were involved in. Without that murder, there is nothing Annalise has "over" them. At the same, she didn't interact and/or hint to have her husband killed, it just happened that way, and then she covered for them because she believed he got Lila killed and didn't want their lives ruined. I can't recall her over "holding" this over anyone, maybe she has and I forgot. But, regardless of if it's Annalise or anyone else, if you are involved in a murder, either confess or don't have additional people in on it who can hold it over you. Shit, most of the time Annalise is telling them to do their fucking jobs all while they obsess over the murder. And you see Asher isn't in Annalise's cult even though he wants her approval. Bonnie and Frank are simply loyal, although, Bonnie seems to have issues on her own, which is why she clings to Annalise. I'm tired of Connor's crying. If he wants to be out of her grasp, admit to what happen and face the consequences. Other than that, grin and bear it until his time with her is over. 

[jhlipton]

Anna didn't cover for Connor or any of the others except Wes.  Connor never asked her to cover for him and his car has evidence only because Anna planned it that way.

[theatremouse]

imho, nate and the gang are framing analise for killing the da making the 2nd half of the season be analise on trial. i could really care less about the siblings.

I pondered that theory but dismissed it because the DA's body is nowhere near Annalise. Given there were clearly struggles in both places, it seems to me it'd be too easy for Annalise to basically ID someone else as having attacked her and spin it as that same person was trying to kill both of them. I'm not saying that is or isn't what happened, just that it's too easy to argue. I don't think any of the flashes we've seen show, say, a blood trail from one body to the other. So it's not like they'd say Annalise killed DA and was severely wounded in the process, then went further into the house, upstairs, across the hall, and then keeled over. As a frame job, there's the need for a third party (unless they argue A did it to herself). And that wrinkle, to me, makes it a bad frame job.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Anna didn't cover for Connor or any of the others except Wes.  Connor never asked her to cover for him and his car has evidence only because Anna planned it that way.

I think this quote is pretty much untrue.

 

Even if you were to accept that none of the M4 are guilty of killing Sam besides Wes, they all participated in the coverup of Sam's death and are at a minimum guilty of obstruction of justice and accessory after the fact. Anni has gone out of her way to coverup their coverup, both through her own actions and directing Frank (to do such things as "steal" Connor's car and buy off the security guard who could have connected the M4 with being at the Keating house, for example). 

 

Connor's car has evidence because Connor voluntarily participated in a coverup of Sam's killing. Frank (apparently) stole Connor's car to ease Connor's mind as to it incriminating him. Connor had a conversation with Frank about what he should do, and Frank told him, report it stolen and act normal. There was at least one scene where Michaela and Connor were at a police station about to confess and Anni intercepted them and was like, "If you want my help, you're going to have to do what I say." 

[jhlipton]

Anni has gone out of her way to coverup their coverup.

They are guilty after taking part in Wes' coverup. Which was given to him by Anni. Connor, Michalea and Laura should have stopped for a second and thought "How does continued involvement help if anything goes awry. How does any of this help anyone except Rebecca?"

[Chicago Redshirt]

If what you are saying is "all the M4 but Wes had not committed any crime until they helped Wes cover up Sam's killing," I would tend to agree. Similarly, if you are saying "Anni orchestrated how Wes told the others to cover up Sam's killing," that is true.

 

But the fact of the matter is that once they engaged in the coverup, they incriminated themselves. And then they needed and wanted Anni's ongoing help. Which she gave.

 

Does she have ulterior motives in helping them? Sure. Does she care more about Wes not getting caught than the rest of them? Probably.

[jhlipton]

But the fact of the matter is that once they engaged in the coverup, they incriminated themselves.

This I agree with.

 

And then they needed and wanted Anni's ongoing help.

This I don't. They took Wes' advise not knowing that Anni was behind it (and that it was designed to get them in deeper and deeper).  If Anni had really wanted to help them, she would have had Frank dispose of the body, and made sure the K4+R had alibis (like she did for herself).  If they had known Anni and Wes then the way they do now, they would have run fast and long from Wes' plan.

[Coxfires]

This I don't. They took Wes' advise not knowing that Anni was behind it (and that it was designed to get them in deeper and deeper).  If Anni had really wanted to help them, she would have had Frank dispose of the body, and made sure the K4+R had alibis (like she did for herself).  If they had known Anni and Wes then the way they do now, they would have run fast and long from Wes' plan.

 

 

I totally agree. They didn't go to Annalise requesting her to help them cover up Sam's murder. She decided to be the mastermind when she discovered that Wes was involved, but deliberately decided not to clue them in about her involvement at first. None of the K4 other than Wes knew that Annalise was the brains behind Wes' plan, he even tricked them with the coin to follow her orders without telling them she knew about it. They only learned afterwards that she was involved.

I thus can understand why Connor feels so trapped. Maybe Annalise is indeed helping them, but from his point of view, she progressively acquired a grip on them behind their back, and now she is blackmailing him. And in his specific case, all he did at first was being at the wrong place at a wrong time. Yes, he could have reported the crime to the police, but he didn't trust Wes or Rebecca wouldn't come up with a story involving him more, plus his car was on the crime scene.

This is why I don't blame Connor for not being all that grateful to Annalise: for all he knows, Wes is the one that really benefited from Annalise'svhelp (and the other K4), and seeing how she acts differently with Wes compared to the other 3, I can't fault him for that.