S04.E02: The Candidate

[Guest]

This is when I actually hope that Diggle has a problem with Felicity, well, not a problem but maybe just doesn't know how to confide in her while she's in a relationship with Oliver now. Maybe he feels like he can't tell her things anymore.

 

I'd rather that so we can maybe deal with it because it's a character-based reason and I like those. But I worry if it's just poor writing and completely unintentional. We shall see...

[lemotomato]

If it is purposeful and not just annoying blocking (and we should find out in the next episode because it will look even odder if Diggle doesn't interact with Felicity when its just the three of them) - we were just speculating why that might be. I can see in character reasons for it - but I suspect it was just odd group writing to be honest.

It's not a blocking issue. As people have pointed out, Felicity walked up to Diggle and tried to give him a high five after the opening scenes mission, and he ignored her. The only thing we don't know is why he's treating her like that.

[Happy Harpy]

If it is purposeful and not just annoying blocking (and we should find out in the next episode because it will look even odder if Diggle doesn't interact with Felicity when its just the three of them) - we were just speculating why that might be.  I can see in character reasons for it - but I suspect it was just odd group writing to be honest.

It clicked.

Of course! It has nothing to do with the characters. At least, not in universe. It isn't even plot-driven.

Of course Felicity couldn't have scenes or interactions with Diggle, especially not in this episode. Too much chemistry, too much warmth, too much sense show-wise, you know, it couldn't be allowed in comparison.

More or less the same reason why she suddenly stopped having scenes with Quentin, imo.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[bijoux]

Thea asked about Madison's plan to become "JT's" backup dancer, a reference to Justin Timberlake, I believe. Madison says that's always Plan B :)

 

You guys probably have discussed the cuteness that is the fern scene already but I just want to say I REALLY LOVE IT. From Felicity's excitement over being able to be "bossy" to Oliver's amused reaction at being poked to Felicity's face softening at the sight of the fern and her little "awww" to the packed lunch (wonder if they were slow-cooked eggs) to Oliver's pride and happiness when Felicity says "who are you?" We know they love each other but this is just another tangible manifestation of that love. I can't recall if I saw it on Twitter or Tumblr but someone said this is the equivalent of the hubby checking and making sure wife's tires are in good order. I love that when Oliver talks about him and Felicity, it's always a "we." 

.

  

Thanks for the clarification. I wish these actors would enunciate better.

The tires thing is really cute and apt.

I don't think a conversation between Felicity and Diggle about forgiveness is out of order, but Diggle being upset to the point of basically ignoring Felicity now (when he's been accepting her help all summer) because he's angry at her IS petty, especially when he's speaking to and interacting with Oliver, the guy he's actually expressed anger at. 

 

And I wouldn't mind Oliver being left in the dark generally speaking, if it weren't for the whole "we don't keep secrets" thing they've introduced (which still...LOL). It just comes off as an eye-for-an-eye mentality, and makes the secret keeper look (again) petty and childish.

But good on Diggle for being honest with Laurel who went behind his back last week and now again this week. Good pickings, Dig.

[InsertWordHere]

Okay, are we sure Felicity was going for a high five? Because to me it looked more like a hastily executed fist pump (something that Felicity has done before in canon) that she played off because she realized no one else had raised their fist in celebration. 

[lemotomato]

I'm pretty sure she was looking for some kind of response from him, because when he ignored her, she played it off by pretending to check her phone, but then she kept looking over at him when we had his side conversation with Laurel.

[InsertWordHere]

I'm pretty sure she was looking for some kind of response from him, because when he ignored her, she played it off by pretending to check her phone, but then she kept looking over at him when we had his side conversation with Laurel.

See, I thought she played it off in a "No one else is as excited about this as I am. Okay, moving on" way.

[kismet]

in 401, FS was way too excited to be returning to SC imo. She was very naive in some ways about what she would face with both the PT board & TeamArrowless. I understood her euphoria, but still I was more in line with OQ hesitant let's think this through before we jump to staying in SC. She was like a little kid excited for school to start up again, before realizing or forgetting how much work it was going to be.

 

What I enjoyed about 402, is it showed FS maturely seeing that her expectations for smooth sailing were not met and she was a little bummed but still functional. But rather than let her mope or dwell, OQ supported her and the decision "they" made together as a unit. That was some awesome growth for me both for FS as a character, who can be a little too upbeat & optimistic for me at times, as well as for O/F as a couple. O/F ability to balance each other out is an amazing asset to the show. They really are the ying & yang of each other. I hope the writers don't screw it up for plot purposes.

[Sake614]

Can someone explain to me why Diggle is wearing Boba Fett's helmet? I mean, of all the possible disguises, this is what he chooses?

[nksarmi]

It clicked.

Of course! It has nothing to do with the characters. At least, not in universe. It isn't even plot-driven.

Of course Felicity couldn't have scenes or interactions with Diggle, especially not in this episode. Too much chemistry, too much warmth, too much sense show-wise, you know, it couldn't be allowed in comparison.

More or less the same reason why she suddenly stopped having scenes with Quentin, imo.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.

 

LOL maybe - ERB does resonate warmth with almost anyone. These writers would probably find it hard to show "grumpy" Diggle is he was all warm with Felicity. That HAS to be why Diggle's one "look he's still Earth 1 Diggle and we will get him back to where he was eventually" scene was with baby Sara. :)

[AyChihuahua]

Can someone explain to me why Diggle is wearing Boba Fett's helmet? I mean, of all the possible disguises, this is what he chooses?

NEVER SPEAK BADLY OF BOBA FETT!

[morakot]

Perhaps while Felicity was helping by remote the team got into the Laurel pattern of "I need you to...." and then into the habit of seeing her as the provider of a service rather than as an equal team member. Thea's never really worked with her -- she only joined TA just before Oliver and FS left; Laurel already uses her as a service -- maybe Diggle ended up feeling that way as well (especially as she was off with the man who betrayed him).

[dtissagirl]

Ooooh, blaming Laurel works for me. It makes the Dementor effect she has on me actually diegetic. Okay. Sold!

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[statsgirl]

Well, except for that declaration in the end. The show is probably going to gloss over it and just show Felicity supporting Oliver. But I wish they'd address it in the next episode because running for office is a massive deal, not just for the candidate but for everybody around him. The extra exposure, the pressure, etc. I want Felicity and Oliver to discuss it, especially since it looks like Felicity has concerns based on her reaction. But they probably won't.

I'm cautiously optimistic given when Wendy Mericle has been saying.  I think Felicity will still support him anyway but I'd like a conversation about what it means to be painting a daylight target on him like that.

 

If I want to think that this is a failure on the part of the show, I'm entitled to that opinion. You needn't agree. Character reasons or not, it was blatant enough to have several media outlets comment on it and even they found any character motivations for Diggle to be angry at her (which is just spec) iffy at best.

Media outlets commented on it?  Then it must have been obvious. They don't have the luxury of time to obsess about the smallest things like we do.

[Princess Vanellope]

I'm cautiously optimistic given when Wendy Mericle has been saying. I think Felicity will still support him anyway but I'd like a conversation about what it means to be painting a daylight target on him like that.

Media outlets commented on it? Then it must have been obvious. They don't have the luxury of time to obsess about the smallest things like we do.

Here's a quote from one: "Digg needs to behave a bit more warmly toward Felicity. As of now, it feels like he’s punishing her for being in a relationship with the man at whom Digg is actually angry. These two people were “dying” in each other’s arms in the penultimate episode of Season 3; Digg giving her a cold shoulder now feels inorganic and cheapens their history together."

There are more, I can look if you're interested :)

[LisaM]

Are we now going to have a scene with Detective Lance putting flowers at Sara's grave...and finding it empty?

Edited October 16, 2015 by LisaM

[statsgirl]

I hope Laurel put back the dirt because otherwise the SCPD is going to get a phone call about people disturbing the graveyard.

 

Thanks, Princess Vanellope.  If it's so obvious that the media are catching it, I'm more hopeful that it's being done on purpose.  Sometimes I rail against the storylines on this show but far worse is when the drop the ball on them.

[karasmom]

OMG -- this took me right out of the show.  The blue thingy that Felicity uses to test something that she found on the windshield is a pill cutter.  I have the exact same thing to cut my pills in half.  Show -- you could done much better and not be so cheap!!  

Edited October 17, 2015 by karasmom

[Princess Vanellope]

I hope Laurel put back the dirt because otherwise the SCPD is going to get a phone call about people disturbing the graveyard.

Thanks, Princess Vanellope. If it's so obvious that the media are catching it, I'm more hopeful that it's being done on purpose. Sometimes I rail against the storylines on this show but far worse is when the drop the ball on them.

Now I'm having this terrible vision of Laurel propping mummy!Sara against a tree while she refills the hole... Edited October 17, 2015 by Princess Vanellope

[AyChihuahua]

So, why didn't DD just kill Lonnie Machin?  He clearly didn't like him taking the girl, and knew she was in the trunk right there.  Then Lonnie admitted he tortured one of DD's men to get info about them.  Sooooo, why didn't he just Hand of Doom him?  Or kick his ass the old-fashioned way, like he did Oliver?

[Guest]

Are we now going to have a scene with Detective Lance putting flowers at Sara's grave...and finding it empty?

Omg, I hope not! I don't even like QL anymore but that would be horrific. Talk about giving the man more trauma.

[kismet]

Now I'm having this terrible vision of Laurel propping mummy!Sara against a tree while she refills the hole...

 

 

I hope Laurel put back the dirt because otherwise the SCPD is going to get a phone call about people disturbing the graveyard.

Well it really would be all SL's fault if they get caught because she is clearly not helping LL out. I mean why must LL always be the one doing all the work? The least SL could do is help refill the hole. What if QL decides to visit that night. Geesh**

 

** Please note my sarcasm :)

[fantique]

Perhaps while Felicity was helping by remote the team got into the Laurel pattern of "I need you to...." and then into the habit of seeing her as the provider of a service rather than as an equal team member. Thea's never really worked with her -- she only joined TA just before Oliver and FS left; Laurel already uses her as a service -- maybe Diggle ended up feeling that way as well (especially as she was off with the man who betrayed him).

Ooooh, blaming Laurel works for me. It makes the Dementor effect she has on me actually diegetic. Okay. Sold!

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would usually jump at the chance to blame Laurel but nope! If anything, I think the team's attitude reflects Diggle. He needs a kick in the balls.

 

Now I'm having this terrible vision of Laurel propping mummy!Sara against a tree while she refills the hole...

Thank you so much for the laugh...

[BkWurm1]

I'm sorry, but what exactly has Felicity done that she deserves "punishment"? She forgave the man she loves, how dare she. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that Diggle was a grown ass man, not a 16 year old girl holding a grudge. He should be able to separate his feelings for Felicity, his friend, and Oliver, his other friend. Fail show.

Sure he should, but it's not always so easy to separate those feelings. I'm not even sure he realizes how distant he is acting toward her.  He's so caught up in his anger and the mission.  

 

This is when I actually hope that Diggle has a problem with Felicity, well, not a problem but maybe just doesn't know how to confide in her while she's in a relationship with Oliver now. Maybe he feels like he can't tell her things anymore.

 

I'd rather that so we can maybe deal with it because it's a character-based reason and I like those. But I worry if it's just poor writing and completely unintentional. We shall see...

I don't want it to become a bigger issue than it already has been, But I would like there to be some kind of exchange where he either promises to do better or says that he’s having a hard time letting down his guard around her as well.

 

It clicked.

Of course! It has nothing to do with the characters. At least, not in universe. It isn't even plot-driven.

Of course Felicity couldn't have scenes or interactions with Diggle, especially not in this episode. Too much chemistry, too much warmth, too much sense show-wise, you know, it couldn't be allowed in comparison.

More or less the same reason why she suddenly stopped having scenes with Quentin, imo.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.

I have to admit that your thoughts about Felicity and Quentin mesh with mine.  Still, I don't think Dig and Felicity on good terms would have interfered with the D/L scene.  He would have just not wanted Oliver in the loop and wouldn't want to put Felicity in the middle and poof, reason why he's not telling Felicity is established. 

[Happy Harpy]

So, why didn't DD just kill Lonnie Machin? 

I know it's comics, but how can I take this villain seriously when his last name reads "Thingy" to me? Thankfully, the way they say it in English is different.

 

I have to admit that your thoughts about Felicity and Quentin mesh with mine.  Still, I don't think Dig and Felicity on good terms would have interfered with the D/L scene.  He would have just not wanted Oliver in the loop and wouldn't want to put Felicity in the middle and poof, reason why he's not telling Felicity is established. 

I agree, it wouldn't have interfered with the D/L scene plot-wise, and as you said it would have made more sense for Diggle, character-wise. They wouldn't have needed much interaction to establish that Diggle and Felicity are in good terms.

But then, how many of us here (and probably people elsewhere) would have commented that there was more chemistry etc. in a look between them, than in a full scene between Diggle and Laurel?

I think that's the kind of reaction the writers might have wanted to avoid. I don't know and I have no mean to know if they're aware of that anti-chemistry I see, and purposefully try to make it less glaring, but imo they might be aware now that the reaction to Laurel tends to be bigger and harsher than what they anticipated (re: lying to Quentin, by their own admission) and could try to give her some "positive" by eliminating possibilities of direct comparisons.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[KirkB]

Now that you mention it, Dark is being a bit inconsistent as a villain. He killed one of his crew, his actual followers, just because they messed up on a job, but then when the hired help (Machin) goes against his wishes he lets him off with a warning. Twice.

[tarotx]

I think the Ghost may be directly under DD's control. Like these men agreed to be in his control. Where "outside contractors" are hired because of reasons but haven't exactly joined the HIVE of followers so don't get the punishment of a failed follower. 

[kismet]

Also think DD sees potential in Anarky, so perhaps doesn't want to kill him. Just doesnt want him working with him until he shapes up. Also like @tarotx says perhaps there ate different punishments for followers/ghost & for contractors.

[wingster55]

I don't think Diggle ignored Felicity by refusing to high five. He just wasn't in that mood. She raised her hand and closed her first when she saw his face. He was upset.

I think Darkh is inconsistent as well..choosing who he kills, who he gives second chances to and which daughter gets to live or not.

[Tangerine]

You know, I kind of reached a place of acceptance and resignation with Laurel. She was here, she was going to do her thing. There were a few eye-rolly moments and whatever but at least she hadn't done anything completely heinous.

 

And then the last 5 minutes happened.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Tangerine

[MsChipper]

Seriously I'm just hate-watching this show now. Quit bringing Sara back from the dead! I don't want to see Lance's annual "Why didn't you tell me my daughter is alive/dead" shtick.

 

We've been there and done that like....EVERY season already! STOP IT!

 

And so..........I guess Curtis will be the Arrow's new Lucius Fox? And possible replacement for Felicity if she dies???

 

Also - I really wish Laurel is the one in the grave in 6 months time but I know that's just wishful thinking...It'll probably be Lance or more likely, SARA. Ha!

 

Compared with Gotham and Flash....this is the worst super hero show on TV at the moment, and Olicity is basically the only thing that keeps me watching this crap. I can't even stand how they've killed Diggle as a character, he and Ollie were supposed to be like BFFs and then they had to sh!t on that and ruin their awesome friendship.

Edited October 18, 2015 by MsChipper

[BkWurm1]

It's funny.  I really do love Gotham but it's such a different kind of show, I'd hesitate to compare them.  As for Flash, I've enjoyed it as well, but my emotional investment in it is so very low and so far this season they have done more set up than really good story telling.  Something about Arrow just pulls me in.  Olicity certainly helps, lol, but I'm invested in everyone but Laurel as well. 

[morakot]

Does Felicity have access to the Palmer private jet? Will this be used  by Laurel and Thea (and Sara) for their "spa" trip?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, good. The second episode in a row that ends in a cemetery.

[wonderwall]

Oh, good. The second episode in a row that ends in a cemetery.

EXCEPT it's Laurel in the grave this time ;)

[dtissagirl]

EXCEPT it's Laurel in the grave this time ;)

 

Hahaha, was that ~~~>>>*FORESHADOWING*<<<~~~? She who digs up a grave ends up in one?

[slayer2]

 

 

Of course! It has nothing to do with the characters. At least, not in universe. It isn't even plot-driven.

Of course Felicity couldn't have scenes or interactions with Diggle, especially not in this episode. Too much chemistry, too much warmth, too much sense show-wise, you know, it couldn't be allowed in comparison.

More or less the same reason why she suddenly stopped having scenes with Quentin, imo.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

It's got nothing to do with that as far as I can see. Oliver AND Felicity abandoned them for their happy life off somewhere else, I'm sure Diggle would like nothing more than to take Lyla and adorable baby Sara and fuck off somewhere blissful too but he can't, they can't, because that's not who they are. They both love Star City and they both want to make the world a better place for their daughter Sara to live in, so they stay and they fight. As far as I can see, Diggle can't relate to the blissed out, "let's fuck the mission and go live in peace" idea because the idea in and of itself is inherently selfish to him, so he fights, he stays and fights with Laurel and Thea (whom Oliver ALSO abandoned) if he's going to confide in someone of course it would be them. Why would he confide in Felicity when he hasn't known her OR Oliver for months? 

 

...

 

I'm excited to see a return to Nanda Parbat and excited that Laurel is bringing back Sara, I was worried they were only going to bring her back as a plot for LoT and simply to fight the good fight. It's nice to see she's back because she was loved and missed and Laurel jumped on the opportunity, it' s just what I would do if something like that happened to my sister so it's very relatable for me. I'm also excited to see Thea and Malcolm interact and the return of Nyssa (hopefully). I liked the Nanda Parbat episodes and League related episodes so I welcome it back with open arms.

 

The new brainiac at Palmer Tech is adorable, I like him already and I am VERY jealous of his hair, his chemistry with Felicity is cute but she needs to chill on the reining in of his personality because MANY people speak in fragmenting sentences, it's not patented.

 

More Thea and Oliver and Thea and Laurel interaction is always good and watching Thea go a little off the rails gives WH something exciting to do and I'm here for it. Loved the smile at the beginning that Oliver gave watching the team work together to fight the ghosts....also Felicity is right, Diggle and her NEED code names and stat!

 

ETA Unless Felicity is going to eat the show (any more than she already has) giving her more scenes with Quentin and Diggle would take away her scenes from Oliver as she is the love interest now, that's where the majority of her scenes are going to be, although she had plenty of scenes at Palmer Tech (still hate that she hasn't given it back to Oliver and Thea) and also in the Arrowcave. I don't understand the complaints about her not getting enough scenes,  entirely baffling to me. Where's that helpful person who runs the numbers on airtime for characters?

Edited October 20, 2015 by GenL
edited to remove fandom discussion

[calliope1975]

I don't feel that Oliver abandoned his friends or the city. He did that back at the end of S1, absolutely. But this time around, I didn't feel like he left without still being in contact with anyone. He didn't lie about where he was going. He was clearly reachable. Why must he have to sacrifice his life for a city that barely gave any fucks about him? (Yes, I understand the moral/self-obligation that those who are heroes feel.) I simply don't begrudge him wanting to get away and stop being a vigilante, maybe even forever. It seems like no one really wanted him back in Starling anyway with the way they were treating him. 

 

Thea peaced out with her evil dad, lied about where she was, and got all pissy when Oliver found her. While it may be part of her LP craziness, instead of yelling at Oliver about how he left, I wish any one of these people would say they missed him and actually liked having him in their lives. With all the vitriol Oliver keeps getting, I'd leave and never return, too. Go to Gotham; that city would probably treat him better.

[apinknightmare]

We can see that Diggle has been struggling, Laurel has been struggling and Thea has been struggling, clearly they've been doing it together. It only makes sense that they would confide in one another as they are a team.  You can't take Olicity abandoning everyone to wedded (near wedded) bliss and expect them to just slide back seamlessly into their original spots, at the very least it isn't how life works, not from what I've seen.

 

 

They can bond together all they want, but the writers should probably come up with some kind of story for Diggle to confide in Laurel with that doesn't make him look like not such a great brother, and makes both him and Laurel look like idiots and the worst strategic thinkers probably ever. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

...

 

Aside: Thea took off shortly after her mother died and lied to Oliver for months about where she was. We just found out that Diggle has been lying to Oliver and Felicity for two years now. And, despite knowing that the city remains under attack, to the point where the daughter of a wealthy woman under police protection could be kidnapped, and to the point where city officials and cops are dying every week, Laurel and Thea are now skipping town. 

 

although she had plenty of scenes at Palmer Tech (still hate that she hasn't given it back to Oliver and Thea)

 

 

 

Well, four points here:

 

1. Thea is the entire reason Oliver and Thea don't have the company now to begin with. The script was clear on this: all Thea had to do was sign those papers, and control of QC would have remained in the family hands. Thea didn't, and then, after refusing to sign the papers, skipped town.  Oliver, not Thea, then fought to get the company back, but in the single 100% best decision ever made by the QC board, they decided to give control of QC to Ray Palmer instead. I'm entirely on the side of the QC board here. 

 

2. Since then, Thea's shown no interest in running QC. She apparently has money from Malcolm Merlyn, and temporarily brought back Verdant, and now seems to be focusing on beating people up and working in the corpse smuggling business, two activities that I don't see the QC board approving of.

 

3. Felicity did offer to give Oliver his company back in the season premiere. He told her she was doing a better job running than he would.

 

4. But although she made that offer, Felicity also made it clear that she had to convince the board to agree to keep her on.

 

Which is to say, I think this accusation is unfounded: Felicity did offer to give the company back; that offer was turned down; and it's not clear she had the ability to do so anyway.

Edited October 20, 2015 by GenL
quoted post was deleted

[wonderwall]

Oliver abandoning the city is up for debate....

 

As for Oliver abandoning Laurel, Thea, and Diggle? Nope. Imo you can't abandon the people who don't want/need you there. 

[bijoux]

I really hope it's the pit talking when it comes to Thea because it feels like such a throwback to her bratty S1 self who reemed Oliver for abandoning her then. And while she may not have realized the extent of hell he had gone through, being cast away on an abandoned island after being the only survivor of a wreck in which you have also lost your father does not sound like Club Med. Likewise, him "abandoning" her now happened after he had undergone some more physical and psychological torture. Let the man pull himself together. You obviously knew. Where he was when you came to find him so he was at your disposal when you needed him.

Oliver's faults are plentiful, but I would really like an, "I'm glad you're happy, Ollie," from Thea in the near future. He deserves that much.

[AudienceofOne]

I'm enjoying this season far more than the last one.

 

And I don't personally see Laurel's decision to dig up Sara as wrong, just kind of stupid.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, good. The second episode in a row that ends in a cemetery.

EXCEPT it's Laurel in the grave this time ;)

Ha, good point. Maybe next time she won't be alive!

[kismet]

Ha, good point. Maybe next time she won't be alive!

Third time is the charm!

[Whimsy]

We locked the thread so you could cool down. As a reminder, this is the episode thread for The Candidate. STAY ON TOPIC.

The Arrow mods are still deciding what to do about the hidden posts.

Also, do not argue about another site's recap.

 

ETA:  We decided to move the link to other recaps to the Media thread and deleted all the comments related to it since they are completely off topic.

[looptab]

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but after all this discussion there's still one thing thats not clear to me regarding Thea and the Lazarus Pit. Was she unaware that the Pit was what healed her, or just of the side effects Malcolm had warned Oliver about? 

[bethy]

I think just the side effects?

[apinknightmare]

I got the sense that she didn't know she had been put in the Pit.

[looptab]

Ugh, I'm so confused. At first I thought Thea didn't know about the side effects, because when she talks to Laurel, Thea comments on the fact that she really must be Oliver's sister, since she hasn't talked to Laurel about it. Thus I gathered that she knew she'd been in the Pit. But then I read people saying that Oliver didn't even tell her he used the Pit, so I thought I misunderstood. And now I just can't make up my mind about it, haha.