S04.E02: The Candidate

[Sakura12]

They better not have Oliver say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" I might throw something at my tv if he does. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[Angel12d]

They better not have Oliver say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" I might throw something at my tv if he does. 

 

No, it will be someone else though. And then they'll be marked for death. In six months. LOL.

[dtissagirl]

I'm legit impressed that they're using the cute O/F moments to dive into both characters' motivations, to show the strength of their relationship, and also to do a whole bunch of the exposition required to move the plot. It's crazy how well it's working.

[KirkB]

I think Dark (the random H in there is inane) either has a code of sorts, twisted though it may be, or he's just a control freak. He probably has no issue killing men, women or children (wasn't that basically one of Ra's issues with him), but maybe it has to be done at a certain time or in a certain way. In this case he hired an outside contractor who has no such limitations to his actions, and Dark was annoyed that the guy was not playing by his rules.

Edited October 15, 2015 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

They better not have Oliver say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" I might throw something at my tv if he does. 

 

 

No, it will be someone else though. And then they'll be marked for death. In six months. LOL.

How about Laurel says it to Sara as she's leaving to join LoT?  Then Laurel can be in the grave in 6 months.  I don't even need Sara to become Black Canary again, she could hang out on LoT for years doing her own thing and then in some time jump to the future we can get a news report with an image of Sara in her Black Canary costume, the reporter will mention that the Black Canary and a group of Women Superheroes saved Gotham.... 

[bijoux]

I think Dark (the random H in there is inane) either has a code of sorts, twisted though it may be, or he's just a control freak. He probably has no issue killing men, women or children (wasn't that basically one of Ra's issues with him), but maybe it has to be done at a certain time or in a certain way. In this case he hired an outside contractor who has no such limitations to his actions, and Dark was annoyed that the guy was not playing by his rules.

And that's really cute coming from Ra's Let's Torch This Place Al Guhl.

[KirkB]

Yeah, I have to admit the hypocrisy there kind of hurts.

[Carrie Ann]

ETA: How come Oliver just waltzed right into Laurel/Thea's apartment without knocking or buzzing the doorbell or anyone opening the door for him? Does Oliver still have a key to Laurel's apartment? Or did Thea give him a new one? Did he pick the lock? Or do Laurel and Thea leave the door unlocked since all villains know where Laurel lives, anyway, and there would be no point in investing in a good lock/latch/alarm system? Why do I have so many questions about inconsequential details? I dunno, man. I should probably go to sleep already.

 

Ha--I'll fanwank this to say that he buzzed them to be let into the building and they unlocked the door for him.

 

Having continued to think about it, I'm actually surprised at how vehement my reaction to Laurel digging up Sara was. I knew Laurel would be the one to do it, after all, and of course I understand wanting to do it. Although, I did try to put myself in that place (which is ridiculous), and I wouldn't do it for my siblings. Or my parents. Or even probably my husband. I'd have a real hard time not doing it for my kid though. And maybe that's another reason I found it easier to believe and understand Oliver trying to save Thea this way--she's always been presented as his "baby" sister. She's so much younger than him that she functions as his stand-in child.

 

But Laurel and Sara have NEVER been shown to have that dynamic. They grew up as pretty typical sisters who are close in age--rivals in some aspects, close in others--and if anything, Laurel was under-protective of her younger sister. So I just don't see "because I WANT to" as a good reason to do this.

 

But beyond that, it's just that that reasoning is so...weak on a storytelling level--I knew it would be Laurel, but I thought there would be a triggering event--some reason that they needed Sara back, specifically. Or even if they had shown weeks of Laurel's obsessing over it. Something. But instead, we get nothing more than, "I want to do that too!" and I need Thea to get MM to do this for me, so she's coming too whether she likes it or not, and we're not telling anyone else. It's just everything terrible about Laurel's character, and confirms for me that the writers see none of these flaws and will never rehab her for me. I don't hate Laurel now because this is so over-the-top; I hate her because this is exactly who she is, all the time. Absolutely thoughtless and unwilling to listen.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Lady Calypso]

I think I figured out why the showrunners decided to do it this way. I think that they think that we'll be so happy for Sara's return that we'll put aside the consequences because of it. They know Sara was a popular character (how popular is obviously dependent on the person) and definitely more popular than her sister has been. So if Laurel's the one to bring her back, people should be less mad at her. Also, it's a TV show with a Lazarus Pit; the show defies reality anyway. Thea just foams at the mouth from time to time like a rabid dog. Sara probably just needs to be retaught tricks and she'll be just fine in a year or so.

 

But it's stupid, because of course we're not going to be dumb enough to fall for this. It's shoddy writing!

 

Personally, it would have been better if Sara first appeared on The Flash as Earth-2 Sara who can't get back home and she becomes the White Canary that way. Or Rip Hunter bringing her back from the time of her death (and then we could have had her missing body) and already LP'd. Or any other way that wasn't this way. Because it's ridiculous to think the Pit would work on anyone dead for more than a year. 

[Angel12d]

How about Laurel says it to Sara as she's leaving to join LoT?  Then Laurel can be in the grave in 6 months.  I don't even need Sara to become Black Canary again, she could hang out on LoT for years doing her own thing and then in some time jump to the future we can get a news report with an image of Sara in her Black Canary costume, the reporter will mention that the Black Canary and a group of Women Superheroes saved Gotham.... 

 

Wishful thinking. I don't think they'd ever kill off LL/BC. They'd kill off other characters for her, clearly, but never her. I just don't see it happening, personally. It's weird because this show doesn't even need a BC tbh but what's done is done. 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think I figured out why the showrunners decided to do it this way. I think that they think that we'll be so happy for Sara's return that we'll put aside the consequences because of it. They know Sara was a popular character (how popular is obviously dependent on the person) and definitely more popular than her sister has been. So if Laurel's the one to bring her back, people should be less mad at her. Also, it's a TV show with a Lazarus Pit; the show defies reality anyway. Thea just foams at the mouth from time to time like a rabid dog. Sara probably just needs to be retaught tricks and she'll be just fine in a year or so.

 

But it's stupid, because of course we're not going to be dumb enough to fall for this. It's shoddy writing! 

 

No but that's exactly what's gonna happen. When everyone sees Sara kicking ass and then the scene with both Canaries and Speedy it'll be all BOP BOP! Yassss! And this will all be forgotten. Calling it already.

 

Laurel never suffers the consequences. That's why it's best to just let it go.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Angel12d

[KirkB]

See, I half expected the grave would be empty, because secretly digging up Sara and using the pit to bring her back not long after her death (or at least putting her somewhere whey it could be done at their convenience) is exactly the kind of thing I would have expected Ra's or Malcolm to do. Bringing Sara back, or threatening to if it's considered a bad thing, would make for great leverage against Oliver or Nyssa.

[Sakura12]

There were a hundred other ways they could've done this (as evidenced by what we've come up with here), they chose to make Laurel look like a selfish idiot. That does make me wonder if they do secretly hate the character or are they just blind with what they do with her?

[Angel12d]

See, I half expected the grave would be empty, because secretly digging up Sara and using the pit to bring her back not long after her death (or at least putting her somewhere whey it could be done at their convenience) is exactly the kind of thing I would have expected Ra's or Malcolm to do. Bringing Sara back, or threatening to if it's considered a bad thing, would make for great leverage against Oliver or Nyssa.

 

I thought the same. I really did think the grave was gonna be empty and I was actually nearly almost excited about that. Basically anyone other than Laurel should have bought Sara back. 

[benteen]

Oliver should have kicked tiny little Lonnie Machin's butt, holding back or not.  That was plot-driven BS.  And he's been avoiding killing people since 2.1, and yet still kicked major ass, so that is not an excuse either.

 

Really, this was a very, very poorly-written episode.  However, I am not raging about it like I was about most of S3.  As long as Oliver isn't a manipulative controlling ahole, I'm fairly zen.  He and Felicity being cute together make me even more zen.  I think I'm finally getting to a place in which I can enjoy the show for the silly fluff it is instead of expecting more.

 

I agree that there's no way Oliver would have gotten his ass kicked by that boy band reject.

[apinknightmare]

I thought the same. I really did think the grave was gonna be empty and I was actually nearly almost excited about that. Basically anyone other than Laurel should have bought Sara back.

I thought it was going to be empty too. I watched with a person who's never seen Arrow before, and she was like, "That grave's gonna be empty. Oh. Gross."

Edited October 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

I thought it was going to be empty too. I watched with a person who's never seen Arrow before, and she was like, "That gave' gonna be empty. Oh. Gross."

 

Same. I don't even care that it would have been expected. I would have preferred her not being in there. Anything than what we were given. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Angel12d

[fantique]

I think I figured out why the showrunners decided to do it this way. I think that they think that we'll be so happy for Sara's return that we'll put aside the consequences because of it. They know Sara was a popular character (how popular is obviously dependent on the person) and definitely more popular than her sister has been. So if Laurel's the one to bring her back, people should be less mad at her. Also, it's a TV show with a Lazarus Pit; the show defies reality anyway. Thea just foams at the mouth from time to time like a rabid dog. Sara probably just needs to be retaught tricks and she'll be just fine in a year or so.

 

But it's stupid, because of course we're not going to be dumb enough to fall for this. It's shoddy writing!

 

Personally, it would have been better if Sara first appeared on The Flash as Earth-2 Sara who can't get back home and she becomes the White Canary that way. Or Rip Hunter bringing her back from the time of her death (and then we could have had her missing body) and already LP'd. Or any other way that wasn't this way. Because it's ridiculous to think the Pit would work on anyone dead for more than a year. 

I  would say "well this is the team that thought that if Felicity told us Ray is the best and Laurel totally earned her mask, we would believe it because...Feliicity" so I am 100% sure they thought this way, but FFS they were clearly exposed to most of us saying that Felicity put her brain cells (and self esteem / standards for Ray) to make that story work, so they should know by now that we can smell the bullshit. Why, writers, why?

[Sakura12]

That would've been a better shock and made us wonder who took her and when. 

[Lady Calypso]

That would've been a better shock and made us wonder who took her and when. 

 

Imma pretend that's what happened, until next week's episode. I'll just make up my own version of episode three and pretend Laurel's storyline is 'where's Sara and who took my idea of LP'ing her?'. 

[Morrigan2575]

I thought it was going to be empty too. I watched with a person who's never seen Arrow before, and she was like, "That grave's gonna be empty. Oh. Gross."

Responding in bitterness thread

[dcinmb]

The writers are really hitting all the right notes with Olicity and Oliver/Thea (for the most part) so I'm not going to let the assinine stuff get to me . . . for now. Love the thought of Oliver picking out the fern and taking time out from vigilante-ing to pack Felicity's lunch. The only thing that would've made it more perfect is if he'd used something like this instead of a brown paper bag.

[AyChihuahua]

A couple of the reviews brought up this, to me insane, idea that Sara is the love of Laurel's life.  Um, what?  In the flashbacks they backstabbed each other and Laurel called Sara a bitch for mentioning Oliver's not secret constant cheating.  Sara returns and Laurel throws a wineglass at her and accuses Sara of causing all their family's problems and stealing her life.  Sara goes away with the LOA to save Starling and Laurel's totally cool with it.  I guess jbuffyangel just stated it and somehow by repetition people have started believing it.

Also, one of the reviews equated Laurel using Thea to get to NP and digging up Sara with Felicity drugging Oliver in NP.  Um, no.  She slipped him a mickey and tried to sneak him out to prevent him from being tortured and turned back into a murderer.  She didn't dig up his rotting corpse and use very questionable magic to bring him back to life knowing he'd be at least somewhat insane.  Man, the lengths people go to to justify Laurel's insane actions.  (Although not as bad IMO as the lengths some viewers went last year to justify Oliver's insane actions.)

[Morrigan2575]

A couple of the reviews brought up this, to me insane, idea that Sara is the love of Laurel's life.

 

jbuffyangel?  She's been on that kick longer than the Olicity Wedding theory but not quite as long as her Red/Blue theory.  LOL

[AyChihuahua]

jbuffyangel?  She's been on that kick longer than the Olicity Wedding theory but not quite as long as her Red/Blue theory.  LOL

The Cinemable one, I think?  Prior to the Gambit Laurel and Sara seemed like totally typical college-age siblings to me, kind of jerky, not super close, love each other but don't feel any deep need to spend time together.  Post-Gambit I call massive BS on Laurel loving Sara at all, much less Sara being the love of her life.

[shrewd.buddha]

Laurel literally dug up her sisters freaking CORPSE! And they showed it to us! What the hell Laurel?!?!

That's just how Arrow rolls...  Once you accept they craziness of the show and stop asking questions, it becomes a lot less frustrating. 

 

What I want to see now is Laurel dropping Sara's shriveled up corpse in the Lazarus Pit like a bouillon cube -- but instead of Sara popping out fresh as a daisy, it turns out that Laurel has made Sara into a stew.. 

(It would have made more sense if Laurel had found the grave empty, then discovered the body had been taken to Para Not Tibet by Nyssa immediately after Sarah had died. ..But this show cannot be bothered to make sense..)

[Angel12d]

Felicity totally had her own jubilant musical score as she walked into PT as CEO for the first time. PRAISE! Haha. 

[morakot]

Was Laurel wearing heels when she jumped into Sara's grave? (Poor Quentin, what's he going to think the next time he visits the grave and finds it's been disturbed -- again?

 

The poppies on the island looked remarkably short -- and very blue. The opium poppies I've seen are usually about three feet high and white (though there are also different colors so blue/purple is not necessarily out of possibility....) On the other hand, is Lian Yu in Chinese waters or is it independent? Historically, China has had issues about growing opium in its own territories, so it seemed odd to have it here.

[AyChihuahua]

I doubt they are growing something as simple as opium poppies.

[writersblock51]

I have never felt that Laurel and Sara loved each other - certainly not so deeply that they'd go to extremes for the other.  Sara's willingness to die by poison in S2 was more about saving her entire family, which included both parents, not just her sister.  That's my take on it, anyway.

 

I like the various other scenarios that posters here have mentioned about how the show could have handled Sara's resurrection.  Once again, fans seem to have put far more thought into silly things like motivation, logistics and consequences than the show witers and runners have.

 

I stand by my theory that Laurel's motives are pure guilt.  I don't doubt she loves her sister but she's been working through guilt since Sara came back and Laurel went off on her.  They made peace, sure, but I don't think Laurel ever fully stopped feeling like crap about how she treated her sister.  Sara's 5 years away were nothing short of hell and, while Laurel knew few details, I think she had a good idea that Sara was profoundly changed. 

 

Arrow has consistently botched legal and business arcs.  Felicity and her role at Palmer Tech is no different.  CEO/Majority Owner is a job that I think only exists in this particular world.  Also, board of directors don't get bonuses. AND they meet quarterly for tax reasons.  But that's just me applying logic to a show that hasn't seen Logic since the start of Season 1.

 

Diggle - I hadn't realized until this morning, when I saw a quick clip, that he snubbed Felicity in the new lair.  That's harsh and completely OOC, in my opinion.  Felicity worked with the team, behind Oliver's back, all summer, right?  She jumped right in to help them even more when she and Oliver returned.  She's supporting the team.  Why on earth is he snubbing her?  If it's because he's ticked at her because of his anger towards Oliver, then THAT is horrible writing for Diggle.  I call BS on it.  Diggle is a professional and has been friends with Felicity for years.  And, despite the utter BS line he gave Laurel about 'family,' Diggle's family includes Oliver and Felicity.  And I think Lyla would be quick to point that out, too. 

 

I know Diggle is exploring feelings that will take him to some darker places this season but c'mon.  The show needs to stop ignoring what they've SHOWN us for 3 years - which is that Diggle and Felicity care about and respect each other, a lot.  Diggle having a grudge against her because of Oliver isn't how he's acted up until now.

 

Good grief, this really bugs me.  Diggle is one of my favorite characters on the show and I'm annoyed with him.  That's never happened before and it stinks.

Edited October 15, 2015 by writersblock51

[Chaser]

The Laurel and Diggle scene and then her later actions. It's such blatant hypocrisy. I'm wondering if they are laying the groundwork for Diggle to defend her actions because he 'understands.' 

[apinknightmare]

Diggle's working on his own hypocrisy (I know what he's hiding and what Oliver hid are not on the same level).

Edited October 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Menrva]

The poppies on the island looked remarkably short -- and very blue. The opium poppies I've seen are usually about three feet high and white (though there are also different colors so blue/purple is not necessarily out of possibility....) On the other hand, is Lian Yu in Chinese waters or is it independent? Historically, China has had issues about growing opium in its own territories, so it seemed odd to have it here.

I thought the blue poppies were a shout out to the blue hallucinogenic flowers from Batman Begins. Since they love that movie so much…

Edited October 15, 2015 by Menrva

[Chaser]

There is a lot this episode set up that I'm excited for. CEO Felicity, Felicity and Curtis, Mayor Oliver (which I used to be 100% against), Oliver and Thea, Thea and LP, Sara (and by Sara I mean Sara, no desire for Sara and the Lance Family), more Olicity, I did like Anarchy, more DD. 

 

I just didn't care much for the actual episode.

 

I think it's because it lessened my enthusiasm for Diggle and his storyline. I hated the conversation with Laurel. I hated that it's the second episode that Diggle didn't acknowledge Felicity. I get the tension with Oliver (that part I enjoy), but I'm not liking this Diggle.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Revisits Itself
A mayoral campaign and a team member with rage issues? Sounds a little familiar.

[Sakura12]

Diggle's storyline is, he finally caught the Stupidity Disease that everyone got last season. He thought he was immune, but it just took a little longer for the symptoms to appear. 

[Starfish35]

LOL! No, he was having symptoms last season (telling Oliver to cut Roy loose, telling Felicity not to date Ray because it gives Oliver the sads) - it's just that they weren't as severe as everyone else's, so they weren't as noticeable. :)

Edited October 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder why Felicitys company is losing money but then they glance over Oliver just spending money to buy the truck and are having Felicity be this multi millionaire. Did she cut her salary significantly?

[benteen]

I wonder why Felicitys company is losing money but then they glance over Oliver just spending money to buy the truck and are having Felicity be this multi millionaire. Did she cut her salary significantly?

 

As pointed out, Arrow has never had a good grasp of business at all.  Summer Glau's CEO deliberately rendered Queen Consolidated stock meaningless back in Season 2 and this apparently excited the Board of Directors.

[apinknightmare]

Regardless of how the company is performing, wouldn't simply inheriting/owning it be lucrative? I mean, poor performance obviously isn't sustainable over a period of time, but just acquiring a large amount of stock and such that she didn't have previously would've been good for her bank account.

[AyChihuahua]

Nothing about their business/corporate stories makes any sense whatsoever, and has not since Oliver became CEO of QC in S2.  Among so many other issues, if she inherited the company, it'd have to be privately-owned, or maybe she inherited Ray's majority share of a public company.  Either way, she'd (1) have a GINORMOUS tax bill; and (2) she could boot all the directors.  CEO positions are NOT INHERITABLE, so if she's just the CEO, they would already have voted to fire her. 

 

Oh, and directors don't get bonuses, and CEOs don't fire low-level employees, and about 50,000 other problems with all their business/corporate storylines (as well as their past political and legal storylines).

[catrox14]

I just can't find any good reason story wise for Laurel to do this.

 

She's never been shown that Sara was SOOO important to her that she can't live without her. They didn't get along as teenagers. They didn't get along as adults really.  It was only AFTER Sara died that suddenly she became this important thing. And now you're gonna tell me that Laurel is willing to put Sara through another grinder of being mentally disturbed so she can have her back...? WHY  ?

 

No. this doesn't cut it.

[AyChihuahua]

Regardless of how the company is performing, wouldn't simply inheriting/owning it be lucrative? I mean, poor performance obviously isn't sustainable over a period of time, but just acquiring a large amount of stock and such that she didn't have previously would've been good for her bank account.

Yes, because PT has assets that have value regardless of PT's overall value.  The building alone would be worth tens of millions. 

[AyChihuahua]

So all long term dead and buried people can just be dug up and dumped into the pit to resurrect? If so, why doesn't Oliver dig up everyone he knows? Mom, dad, Tommy. This is just ridiculous. 

And Yao Fei and Shado.  He could throw them all in simultaneously and see who ends up with whose body parts.

[Password]

Frankly Moira is necessary back in Star City.

Lug 'em all.

[kismet]

Exactly! A relaxing spa trip does not include digging up the woman you murdered to bring her corpse to the man that brainwashed you into killing her, then doing the same thing that happened to you to her.

You also don't ask someone who is going slightly crazy what a good idea is.

Well it's certainly a new way to exfoliate and get a really deep muscle work out. Although you probably are more likely going to need another spa trip afterwards.

So really we should be thanking LL because she is really trying have her cake and eat it to by planning multiple fun girl bonding activities for her & TQ.

BONUS- SL & LL finally have a girls trip together :) Cmon we asked for more sisterly bonding, shame on us for judging how the writers make it happen.

[calliope1975]

Just rent a U-Haul and pile it full of bodies. Why not Robert, too?

[KirkB]

For that matter, now that he is in charge of the damn thing, why doesn't Malcolm give his dead wife a bath?

[AyChihuahua]

Poor Akio.  I'm assuming he can't join in on the fun bc he was cremated and his remains separated.  Too bad, because of he was part of the Lazarus Pit Stew o'Bodies, his head could end up on Robert's body. 

[Angel12d]

I bet they put a time limit on who can be dipped in the LP. Thea wasn't bad at all because she wasn't even dead when they put her in there. Sara has been dead a year so she'll be cray cray and need help. But anyone who has been buried longer than that probably would be beyond help. I did wonder why they specifically said Moira has been dead 2 years (um, no she hasn't).

Edited October 15, 2015 by Angel12d

[Sakura12]

Quentin is still marked for death since he activated the Laurel Lance saving the world death curse. 

 

I think it has to be more than a time limit and going insane for a bit. That's why I'm hoping for my Captain Jack like immortal theory. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Sakura12