S04.E02: The Candidate

[Password]

Moving on.

This episode had a lot going on. The flashbacks, now I haven't read ANY spoilers because I'm trying to watch the show as an uninformed viewer, but someone upthread mentioned the woman's accent being Russian. Over the hiatus we spoke about the Bratva and the slave trade they're involved in. I wonder if this is the way they get Oliver involved by being 'undercover' rather than truly being a slave driver. Interesting.

I adored Curtis and Felicity! Seriously I was so enthusiastic WITH Felicity about being CEO that I was poking Oliver's chest too. THIS, show, is what I wanted from Ray.

OK so did anyone else get Damian has a daughter anvils from the Anarky scene? Got me worried for a second about Felicity. He's so against it, he must have experience right? Then he took the idea and ran with it for Laurel. Weird.

BTW, I think Laurel will die. No, it's not that I want her to die (though Lance and Laurel are top of my list) but I just really think they're sending Laurel to death this season.

Sorry folks, I'm bored of the Oliver-Diggle tension already. Simply because it seems that seeing as Oliver and Felicity are a unit, Dig is not communicating with her either. Where is the Diggle-Felicity relationship?! Seriously show, they have such wonderful platonic chemistry WHERE IS IT?

Oliver and Thea were actually the best thing about this episode. They were WONDERFUL. That fight scene between the Queens was top notch. Brilliant. WH is killing this Thea is crazy thing and I'm loving it.

Sorry, I just don't care about Laurel and Quentin so they get no attention from me.

[Starfish35]

*sigh* They always just have to go that step further with Laurel, don't they? And then it takes them by surprise when people get upset. Last year it wasn't enough for Laurel to lie to her dad for months about Sara being alive - they had to take it that step further and have her impersonate her sister to fool her father. (MG said he was surprised by the backlash to that.)

Now it's not enough for them to have Laurel find out about the Pit and take Sara, they have to do it with her knowing about the negative side effects and with the unpleasant implications of manipulating an emotionally fragile Thea into helping her.

I'm not raging about it, actually. We already knew from next week's episode summary that Laurel was going to do this. I just thought she would do it unaware of the Pit's side effects and what it was doing to Thea. But once again, Laurel charges ahead and does whatever she wants and damn the consequences. I'm looking forward to seeing what Nyssa's reaction is. And I'm wondering if they're really going to cure Thea this quick or if that will play out for awhile longer.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[Happy Harpy]

Flashbacks are 100% improved over the little I saw of last year. They have a season 1 feel. Me likes.

Oliver/Felicity were for me the highlight of this episode. Find another way to make things work is their motto since S2x01 and I love how it defines their professional endeavours.

Curtis/Felicity sound great, W.Holland continues to impress, Damian is a good villain...

 

...now, Anarky has the gravitas of Ra's in a geek's clothing. Does the escape mean he's going to recurr? No thanks.

Although Oliver is obviously back in charge (yeah!) Felicity needs to step up more because the team's balance is off when she's just on support, tech and Oliver, and not more involved. OTA needs to get back on tracks.

 

I'm definitely prepared to suffer through my Diggle getting the Felicity season 3 treatment. The Laurel/Diggle interactions feel completely forced in my eyes, and I don't understand how it's possible but DR and KC have  the same anti-chemistry as KC and SA imo.

 

Laurel:

1) *facepalm* *facepalm* *facepalm*.

2) smell the fart. And the one in the car was seemingly a bad, bad one.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[EmilyBettFan]

She is completely selfish. But, because it's her doing it we should be "thankful" at getting Sara back. When in reality it's the power of the pit and then the power of Constantine.

[SleepDeprived]

I wondered a few weeks ago if they would actually show Sara as corpse or just pan to a sheet-wrapped body before the Lazarus Pit-ing. Because I really couldn't fathom the gooey mess that Laurel (and Thea) would have to deal with, just to bring Sara to Nanda Parbat. I am now sorry I ever put that thought out to the universe because, know what, I did not need to see Sara's mummified remains. Which, huh? How did that happen? Does putrefaction not apply on League members? She did look relatively good, though, for a dead body. Little dehydrated but put on a bit of moisturizer, some rouge, 8 quarts or so of fluid, and she'll be our fresh-faced OG Canary in no time.

 

Not saying anything much about the Laurel of it all in this episode because, well, everyone else has covered that already. Also, I just have nothing nice to say so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (borrowing from Angel12d).

 

I liked all the Oliver/Felicity scenes. I'm really loving how they are writing that relationship. So much. And Curtis was such a breath of fresh air. One episode in and I am starting to get invested in his character. I can't wait for the show to explore his dynamic with Felicity. Also, the Thea and Oliver side-by-side shots with both drawing their bows and riding their motorcycles were some of my favorite scenes. I love their sibling dynamic. But, man, Thea's messed up so bad. I'm disappointed in both Diggle and Laurel that neither of them noticed all these months until Oliver pushed his concerns and got Thea to reveal how out of control she's becoming.

 

Whoever said that Diggle is probably also pissed at Felicity for forgiving Oliver so fast and going away with him is probably right on the money. Not only was Diggle short with Felicity, and actually barely acknowledged her, in the premiere last week (and kinda this week) but he deliberately dodged/ignored the high-five that Felicity offered when they all came back to the lair at the beginning of the episode. It made me sad. Especially when Felicity just quickly looked at her phone to hide the missed-five then back to Diggle, with concern and confusion on her face, when his back was turned and Laurel was talking with him, instead, about his frustration with the ghosts. I want the Felicity/Diggle friendship back, show!

 

Yay for employing so many extras/background people again! Star(ling) City actually feels like a city this season. Also, good for Vancouver's economy.

 

I'll wait to see if the code name talk actually amounts to something for Diggle and Felicity. I hope it does but, with this show, eh. I hate the call back to "BT-dubs," though. I need the writers to quit it with recycling stupid lines. Let it die, please, along with the bones talk.

 

Thea's shouty exposition that there were no ghosts on the balcony, just the machine gun, made me laugh. Like, who are you talking to, girl? Same with the exposition-y "H20" label on that pipe. 'Kay, thanks for spoon-feeding me info, show. It's not like I wouldn't have understood exactly what those were about.

 

Add Jeri Ryan to the list of guest stars kinda wasted by the show. I wish she got to do more. I did enjoy her disbelief at Oliver's lame "self-defense" explanation. I don't think self-defense classes teach you how to hop down balconies, like a bunny, without breaking any bones, Oliver.

 

Also, what is it with Oliver getting thrown backwards against shelves this season? Is that a new stunt thing they're doing with Oliver or something that's happened before and I've only now noticed? Is breaking a shelf cheaper than other stunts where he could, I dunno, be thrown against a table/chair/door? Or is the stunt crew beginning to run out of ideas for fight scenes? Every episode, so far, he's been thrown against some shelves--by Darhk, by Thea,

and now Double Down in next week's episode promo

. I'm not complaining, necessarily. I just found it weird.

 

Oh, yeah, GTFO, Quentin. You are such a hypocrite.

 

ETA: How come Oliver just waltzed right into Laurel/Thea's apartment without knocking or buzzing the doorbell or anyone opening the door for him? Does Oliver still have a key to Laurel's apartment? Or did Thea give him a new one? Did he pick the lock? Or do Laurel and Thea leave the door unlocked since all villains know where Laurel lives, anyway, and there would be no point in investing in a good lock/latch/alarm system? Why do I have so many questions about inconsequential details? I dunno, man. I should probably go to sleep already.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SleepDeprived

[BkWurm1]

So we got the slave labor camp from Year One, and Oliver's running for mayor, not bad.  I also liked Mister Terrific.

 

 

 

If anyone is able to kind of outline over in the Comics thread what Year One covers in the Green Arrow comic book universe, I'd be interested to read it. 

 

 

 

LOL I knew you guys would be brutal on Laurel, but I am giving her a total pass because I think she does legitimately care about Thea and in the hands of better writers even resurrecting Sara could have been about Thea (helping her do something about that she was mind raped to kill Sara to begin with). But since the writers are a wee bit lazy and are using their creative juices to give me LOTS of other things I like - I will give them a pass on resurrecting Sara the quickest and easiest way possible.  Besides, it's not like Thea couldn't say "no" if she wanted to - she could kill Laurel if she wanted to lol. 

 

I think that Thea can't say no.  She's responsible even if it is in the most roundabout way for Sara's death.  How could she tell this person that she's relied on as a partner and friend that it's ok that the LP was used to save my life but we shouldn't use it to save your sister?  The logical reminder about the crazy is hard to push too hard since Thea is really hoping that she's not going to go TOO crazy.  She's just not in a mental state to be able to say no and that's when friends and family who would understand this should know better than to take advantage of her weakness. 

 

Part of me is sympathetic to Laurel but it comes off like Laurel is running roughshod over Thea. I actually think talking to Malcolm is a logical thing to do but surely Oliver has some means of communications with him that doesn't involve showing up on his doorstep?  Laurel's actions feel a bit like someone that figures it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. 

 

Since we know that Sara will come back, I wonder why Malcolm allows it.  Maybe he's just that curious.  How hilarious would it be if Malcolm is all hyped about his fountain of youth only for it to stop working after Sara and Constantine show up, lol.  Kind of looking forward to that.   

 

 

 

 

 

Also. Sorry. Even with embalming fluid. Sara would be in way worse shape. I know it's the CW but I study forensics and that's bothering me.

 

You don't have to study forensics to know that.  For her corpse to look that desiccated minus the gooey, Star City would have had to have had an extremely hot but not humid summer/fall.  I'm trying to fanwank that some chemicals that Felicity used to make the virtual autopsy easier to do had an unexpected side effect.  Yet I reaffirm my gratitude that they went dry and leather like rather than drippy and oozing. 

 

I wish we didn't have to guess. I would've preferred if they'd had Laurel take Thea to NP and then had her get the idea about Sara. The way they wrote the interaction between them, IMO, made it seem like Laurel's "concern" about Thea was only because she wanted more information about the LP. I also would've preferred to see the conversation between her and Thea, because Thea did technically kill Sara, and she's not really in a position to tell Laurel no because of that. 

 

Or at least make a phone call to NP and have Malcolm say yes come, maybe there is something we can do for Thea and THEN have Laurel just assume if they can fix Thea then it would be A-OK for Sara as well. 

 

I think Laurel totally cares about Thea and wants to make her better and is trying to use it as a double whammy. She thinks Malcolm will know how to "cure" Thea and because of that thinking, she is thinking she will be able to bring back Sara and since they will be in Nanda Parbat that they will also be able to make Sara better easier.

Sure but as other's pointed out, Thea is not her priority otherwise she'd have included Thea's loved one on this trip.  If they could fix Thea, then Thea could have still later talked to her dad.  Sara is dead, dead.  Laurel has the time to wait and see if Thea can be made better but waiting also means someone might try and stop her so she's put her plan with Sara ahead of Thea's wellness.  It's a shame because the show didn't have to go this way. 

 

It also bugs me because what Laurel is contemplating is a big deal with huge possible ramifications for everyone and there should be lasting consequences that Laurel has to accept but I'm positive that she won't be the one to pay them.  It should mean something but apart from feeling some guilt (I'm guessing) and facing a blistering lecture from Oliver, I think she's going to come out fine.  More than that, I think she's going to come out on better terms with the rest of the team than before (speculation) and that's just not right.  But it is expected.  

 

Chekhov's ~secrets~.

That reminds me, in regards to the mystery grave, I've been thinking of it as Schrödinger's Grave since for the next six months everyone but Oliver and Barry are simultaneously in it and not in it. 

 

I don't think Laurel and Diggle would have thought that was what she was trying to do.  And we can totally agree to disagree, but I think they would have just thought she was wailing on him for pushing her buttons.

 

And let me say again - Oliver DID more when he thought Roy needed help.  He didn't bench Thea, he didn't say, "you can't go out in the field anymore" - he has done nothing.  So yea, I cannot blame Laurel here.

 

We don't really know what Oliver planned though.  He stopped by and finds out that Laurel wants to take Thea away for some relaxation at a spa.  Basically she's benched during that time.  There was no need to push the subject until she returned.  They don't really know what Thea needs to recover. Downtime away from the violence?  A chance to meditate?  A really cute new nail polish color?  Thea's crazy is still new.  I agree that if she didn't improve than NP and Malcom were the best next options but babysteps first didn't seem unreasonable. 

 

 

 

 

So why I am supposed to believe that Laurel is TOTAL IDIOT for wanting to do to Sara what was done to Thea, when Oliver isn't DOING anything but lecturing and talking to Thea about it?

 

I wonder if it's because we know that the LP is way worse if you are actually dead (and the longer you've been dead) or if it's a natural conclusion to make that since Thea was almost dead and got some crazy that WAY dead would create a shit storm of crazy.  It's hard to judge really.  Logically, I think I would first wonder IF Sara could still be a qualifier for the pit since the circumstances are sooo different.  Maybe the expecting the same level of crazy isn't entirely absurd but why think it would even work on Sara?   

 

 

 

 

You know, with this show they could have gone anywhere with Oliver's reactions to Felicity's actions, so I'm just glad they behaved believably.  Also, BkWurm1 is one of the nicest posters on these boards.  Even though she still likes Quentin, so she is obviously crazy.

Yep, still like Quentin!  Take DD out of the equation and he's behaving justifiably giving what conclusions he came to last season, actually in many ways, he's really mellowed since last season. He's taking tips and working with them and handing out tips, all things that I think he would have refused to do before.  Putting DD back in the equation and he's still protecting their secrets but since he's getting info he can't substantiate to his police officers, he kind of HAD to tip off Oliver about the location of Madison.  (Kudos to the actress for screaming in very believable terror) 

 

I can't condemn Quentin until I know what deal he thought he was making.  He spoke of the city's need for someone to walk out in the open that wanted to make the city a better place.  That fits with what he's always believed, to trust the system, but DD is so clearly not a by the system guy.  So why would Lance ever agree to follow him? 

 

We know that DD isn't giving him a choice now and said that he'd made it clear from the start he didn't have a choice as well but Quentin seemed act like he had bought into whatever DD was selling.  I need to know what the sales pitch was before I can condemn (or redeem) Quentin.  In the meantime I will continue to feel for a man that wants to be doing right but is no longer sure what that is.  Once I feel like I understand a character and have empathy for them, I have a hard time not seeing it from their viewpoint as well. 

 

Quentin is a good guy at heart.  I need to know what's happened to him.   

 

 

I thought Oliver picking a fight with Thea was awesome! He did it in a way that wasn't punitive, but was respecting her place on the team. He wasn't treating her with caution, but I also think he was deliberately trying to provoke her in front of TA2.0. He watches Arrow and has learned that showing is always more powerful than telling. So, being frustrated by their refusal to listen to him about Thea, he takes the chance to show them had bad Thea is.

I thought it was weird that he didn't use his voice modulator before I realized DD's minion from the end of 401 must still be using it.

It's funny, I can both see him picking the fight as really stupid and going too far and at the same time absolutely a sign of his acceptance of Speedy's skills.  I think he misjudged the situation completely (or at least how Thea would respond) but he was treating her like he would have anyone else that he thought needed correction on such a serious matter.  It though at the same time gave me flashbacks to Malcolm's teaching methods which seemed to demand the killer instinct at all times which just reminded me that despite training with Thea pre NP, he had no idea how she was afterwards.  Which circles back to why he should not have left her on her own so soon but also circles back to why he NEEDED to go or he never would have been able to go. 

 

Everyone needs hugs IMO. 

[BkWurm1]

She did look relatively good, though, for a dead body. Little dehydrated but put on a bit of moisturizer, some rouge, 8 quarts or so of fluid, and she'll be our fresh-faced OG Canary in no time.

 

Oh, oh, I know this one!  Soak her in a bath of liquid fabric softener and all the dried up stuff looks (and smells) Spring Fresh. Won't even damage her cells. 

Whoever said that Diggle is probably also pissed at Felicity for forgiving Oliver so fast and going away with him is probably right on the money. Not only was Diggle short with Felicity, and actually barely acknowledged her, in the premiere last week (and kinda this week) but he deliberately dodged/ignored the high-five that Felicity offered when they all came back to the lair at the beginning of the episode. It made me sad. Especially when Felicity just quickly looked at her phone to hide the missed-five then back to Diggle, with concern and confusion on her face, when his back was turned and Laurel was talking with him, instead, about his frustration with the ghosts. I want the Felicity/Diggle friendship back, show!

 

That was me but I hope I’m not right for long.  Felicity is bringing out her loud voice next week.  Let’s hope everyone gets a chance to resolve their issues.  At this point we may never get any lines specifically addressing it but I really think DR and EBR decided to play it this way.  It at least explains away the lack of scenes between them.  What do you call it when the actors come up with a fanwank? 

I hate the call back to "BT-dubs," though. I need the writers to quit it with recycling stupid lines.

 

I cringed too but at least it was a dirct and deliverate call back to Ray.

[cambridgeguy]

 

Remember he was on the bench for a few months.  It will take him awhile to get back into the swing of things.  You don't sit on the bench for months, and then dominate after getting thrown right back into the fire.  It takes some time, that's why sports leagues have training camps, and practices.

You also don't go from zero to relatively competent vigilante after a few months of boxing lessons (Laurel) or assassin training (Thea).  Plus that car hit was actually pretty hard so even with training Ollie should have been wincing after that one.

 

They should also ask Cisco to build in some insulation the next time he upgrades their suits.  Tasers are a relatively common weapon.

[Potanical Pardon]

How exactly does Laurel plan on both transporting a dead body internationally AND finding Nanda Parbat? It's not like she can ask Felicity for money to grease palms as far as the body goes, and Nanda Parbat is totally off-limits unless you're allowed to find it. Unless I'm mixing up comic lore and Dark Knight Trilogy lore with DC TVverse, I assumed the same rules applied to NP.
 

Disappointed Diggle still doesn't have a codename. How is it right that the two people who were there with Oliver from the beginning don't have a codename for their safety?! Oh, I forgot. BECAUSE COMICS.

Well, to be fair both characters are kinda-sortof brand new in the comics. Felicity existed, though not really as a Green Arrow supporting cast at all, but the comics Felicity from way back then, was a pretty underused forgettable character. The current comics has a definite Arrow-inspired Felicity now as well as Diggle, a brand new character. I don't see why she can't be Oracle as a codename. If not that, let her be the Calculator, or is that the plan for who her dad ends up being? Proxy is a cool name too but that's Oracle-lite. Also, Felicity is a terrible CEO, but it's a show and I'm sure it'll all work out with Mr. Terrific's whatever he comes up with

(probably T-Spheres)

.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Potanical Pardon

[bijoux]

I can't even bring myself to be mad at Laurel. She's just being herself, constantly and unwavering maddening. I'll just say two things on the matter. 1) Nice to invite her Dad along for the ride. Not like he'd be at all invested in his dead kid. 2) This is why Laurel should not have a say in the team. If she must, let her be the muscle, but she is no tactician and never has been.

 

Does the island look more vibrant than it did in the first two seasons? Maybe I'm imagining things, but it definitely seemed like the colors were popping a lot more. And wow, who gave Waller a job? She's really horrible at it.

 

Also, we should talk about Felicity's face when Oliver said he was gonna run for Mayor. Bae wasn't that happy. She's probably worried he'll die. Again.

While I have no doubt she'll be supportive, I'm thinking part of the initial reaction was the feeling that he was at least somewhat safer during the day when he was trying out new recipes and stuff.

 

I see some people are doubtful about Oliver being elected mayor. Well, he'll be running unopposed, so it's enough if he casts the only vote for himself. And I have to reiterate what I said a while back. This decision is incredibly brave on his part, not only because he's putting himself in even more of potential harm's way but because he's laying himself bare. Oliver Queen will no longer be a mask like he used in the first two seasons, but he'll openly declare his feelings for the city. It's reckless in a way but I also love it.

 

Whoever said that Diggle is probably also pissed at Felicity for forgiving Oliver so fast and going away with him is probably right on the money. Not only was Diggle short with Felicity, and actually barely acknowledged her, in the premiere last week (and kinda this week) but he deliberately dodged/ignored the high-five that Felicity offered when they all came back to the lair at the beginning of the episode. It made me sad. Especially when Felicity just quickly looked at her phone to hide the missed-five then back to Diggle, with concern and confusion on her face, when his back was turned and Laurel was talking with him, instead, about his frustration with the ghosts. I want the Felicity/Diggle friendship back, show!

 

I missed this completely. Gasp. Oh my God, Dig! Shape up. Although I've got to say this episode did not cast a good shade on him. We have him not only keeping things from Oliver and Felicity now that he's definitely pissed at Oliver and more than likely at least somewhat resentful of Felicity, but more than a year prior to that! What is up with that? Like, wouldn't it have made sense to have gone to Felicity about finding information? I get a small inkling that's a thing Felicity is passably good at. And his statement that it was a family thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. You know, given that he called Oliver his brother. Dig, you're making it really hard on me to be understanding of your hurt feelings when it turns out you've been pulling similar shit for a while. But hey, I'm glad you have a new confidant in Laurel who reciprocated and included you in her plans.

 

What is up with this show going back and forth with the voice changers? Olivers was totally gone this episode. 

 

Particularly as he and Thea were saving a person they know and have spoken to within the last 24 hours.

 

4. I loved Oliver's stunts in street clothes. It evokes the best of S1. Nothing fancy, just a display of impressive athleticism and skill.

 

Now let's have him scale a building in the next episode and I'll be happy as a clam.

 

Laurel, you are the worst. You are the AT&T of people. You are the peanut butter on the roof of the world's mouth. You are the opposite of Batman. (And you probably don't even know what that means!)

I'm dying over here.

 

It was weird since there were no signs of any food wrappings or mention of just having eaten dinner. Actually, I’m not sure at all what Diggle and Laurel were doing (or why) Who were they staking out?

The Olicity was woven into the episode so nicely.  It’s simply an extension of their characters.  It feels effortless.  I love ending the episodes (or nearly ending the episodes) with Oliver and Felicity talking about their day.

 

Speaking of grudge, I was glad that Thea yelled at Oliver for coming home and then just leaving her.  It’s completely valid and yet Oliver leaving was also something he needed to do.

1. They were keeping an eye out on the station where Jessica Danforth was in protective custody because the team didn't think police could do enough.

 

2. So, so true.

 

3. I understand Thea in a way, but on the other hand she left with Malcolm at the end of S2 and lied to Oliver about it. Oliver left with the love of his life to actually get a life and was honest about that.

[dtissagirl]

AND when they got back and Felicity tried to high five him, he just left her hanging.  I’m telling you, Dig’s holding a grudge against Felicity as well. Well, it is possible he’s just too cool for the high five but I still think he’d grudging.

 

I really hope this is the case. I mean, not that I want Dig to be holding a grudge against Felicity by proxy, but that this is the reason why he's treating her almost as if she were invisible.

 

All fingers crossed that she uses her loud voice on him.

[Primal Slayer]

How exactly does Laurel plan on both transporting a dead body internationally AND finding Nanda Parbat? It's not like she can ask Felicity for money to grease palms as far as the body goes, and Nanda Parbat is totally off-limits unless you're allowed to find it. Unless I'm mixing up comic lore and Dark Knight Trilogy lore with DC TVverse, I assumed the same rules applied to NP.

 

Remember 3b? Where they came and went to NP like it was right around the corner? Not hard to find, takes like 5 mins.

[Morrigan2575]

If anyone is able to kind of outline over in the Comics thread what Year One covers in the Green Arrow comic book universe, I'd be interested to read it.

Replying in Comics Thread.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Isn't show canon that it actually IS hard to find?

Not that it matters since Laurel's been there before. How she's going to manage to get a rotting corpse there is another issue, which I'm guessing won't be addressed.

[bijoux]

I cringed too but at least it was a dirct and deliverate call back to Ray.

And now let's never speak of it again.

 

Man, I cannot believe how well they're writing Oliver and Felicity. There's a wonderful sense of reciprocity. I know some posters felt like Oliver was staying in Starling for Felicity this week but now we have her doubting this decision and him speaking in favor of it. It's like they take turns at the wheel of Cheerleading Express. While remaining playful and hot, like in the "you look nice" scene. Nice strutting there.

 

Oh, and Oliver's hello at the end of the episode. You effing sap, you. But man, him having to explain he was joking about him and Diggle killing each other to Thea and Laurel (because his joking skills are still a little rusty) is gold.

[Primal Slayer]

Isn't show canon that it actually IS hard to find?

Not that it matters since Laurel's been there before. How she's going to manage to get a rotting corpse there is another issue, which I'm guessing won't be addressed.

Yeah probably won't address it. Probably by the same private jet they used for Thea.

[quarks]

Yeah, for the record, although ordinarily I'd be asking exactly how Laurel plans to take a desiccated body outside the U.S. to Nanda Parbat, season 3B did such an excellent job of establishing that Nanda Parbat is in New Jersey I'll just content myself with asking how she plans to get a body on a plane, but then again, maybe Ferris Air is so distracted by the unexpected return of Green Lantern that they're letting their passengers check anything these days.

 

But to go back to Laurel's thought that this was a good idea to begin with, I remembered this morning that I've seen this plot before! Stephen King's Pet Sematary. where, to spoil the plot a bit, people bury pets and occasionally people in a cemetery and then the dead things come back wrong in classic King style. Thing is, although bringing people back to life in that book is clearly a Very Bad Idea, when the characters do it, it sorta makes sense because the person just died and they are completely bowled over by grief. The book also hints that some evil presence is encouraging them to make very bad decisions.

 

Here, Sara's been dead for a year. Laurel's grief is no longer raw - we've seen her smile and eat French fries and take up a new career in swinging on ropes at night. I doubt she's emotionally recovered from the loss - well, ok, obviously she hasn't - but unlike the characters in Pet Sematary, she seems capable of thinking coherently and reasonably - she did in the beginning of this very episode, after all.

 

On a more positive note, I also realized that we do finally have a sort of in canon show explanation for Amanda Waller's fixation on flashback Oliver Queen and his terrible wig: if Amanda Waller realized that various Evil Armies were arriving on the island, and she has some reason to - she sent one there herself and apparently found one there in the second season, then it does make some sense to pick up someone who's survived on the island and sorta train him to be an ARGUS agent. Not much sense, but compared to the thinking of other people in this episode, it's even clever. 

[benteen]

I have to agree with the IGN reviewer's description of the villain as Anarky in Name Only.  I didn't see anarchy in this character, just a glorified sadist.

I was amused that Felicity is the one with all the money now to do things.

 

 

 

While Lance's hyprocracy annoys me (and I still don't  get how he's working for DD), I did laugh when he told Oliver "You weren't kidding when you said you were doing things differently.  First you shot him full of arrows and now you're burning them alive."

 

 

Yeah, I have no idea how Laurel got that body dug up and just how she plans to get that body to NP.  She doesn't have the money, skills or brains to pull that off. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by benteen

[dtissagirl]

I can fanwank it that Thea still has access to Merlyn's money to charter a private jet.

 

What I can't fanwank is the stench of spending more than 15 minutes in a private jet with a mummified corpse, and how to explain the stink to the plane's crew.

[Password]

On rewatch, that episode was really pretty great.

I'll say it again, the Queen fight was da bomb.

(I have never rewatched episodes this much.)

[tarotx]

Laurel should have un buried Sara at the beginning of episode 3. That way they give her a week to reflect on if it's a good idea and decide Sara deserves to be a live if the scrum Malcolm is still alive. Maybe this could be done after Thea had had a a good week at the spa. I think Thea will do everything to the fullest now. If she's vigilanteing-fight balls to the wall, sex will probably be the best she's even had and everything is just done all out. Which could be a good thing if she has some around to care about her but not so much when she's ignored. But a week of Laurel paying a lot of attention to her and relaxing could make it seem Ok to raise Sara. Where at least think the idea. But 1 after Thea went off on Anarchy-yeah bad idea. 

 

But I think they wanted to end with a character looking at a grave. The same as episode 1. 

 

I guess laurel never thinks things through. She just does it. Going back to CNRI to get files-LOL not thinking straight. Girl is seriously in need of some one to get to to start thinking about Consequences. I hope Constantine goes all off on her. And I hope she understands why what she did was wrong. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by tarotx

[Menrva]

I just…I just can't with Laurel. And the writers did exactly what I dreaded they would do regarding Sara's resurrection. I don't know why I thought that maybe, maybe they'd find a way to make Laurel look less selfish, thoughtless, careless, feckless…but no. I didn't think it was possible to make me dislike Laurel more, but there it is.

 

And seriously, there will be absolutely no consequences for Laurel. She does terrible things and she gets her job back, she gets her sister's jacket, she gets her sister's job and now she gets her sister back. No blowback. Everyone seems cool with her vigilanting around the city. I don't even want to hear about how horrible MM is because he's in a master class of asshole douchebag all on his own. But this willful stupid steeped in Laurel's selfish choices is so distasteful to me.

 

I humbly submit that BC not only stands for Black Canary, Buckle Canary and Because Comics! but now: Beyond Consequences.

 

Too bad flying on private jets doesn't get you frequent flyer miles, because seriously, TA would have earned silver elite status by now, jaunting off to Nanda Parbat at the drop of a mask - err, hat, at a moment's notice every Wednesday…

Edited October 15, 2015 by Menrva

[Sakura12]

I'm not saying that Laurel wanting to bring back her sister is not a human reaction. It is, that part I do understand, the idea of bringing a loved one back. What I don't understand is she's seen the side effects that Thea's having, she's heard Thea being afraid of hot tubs because of what she went through, and she's still thinking it's a good idea. Then it doesn't even seem like Nyssa being against it will change her mind either. Nyssa has seen what it did to her father and maybe to others. She loves Sara and doesn't want that for her. 

 

Plus it look like Laurel doesn't bring back the Sara we know, Constantine does that. So I will thank him for bringing Sara back. 

 

Of course they will probably go with Sara was in a hell like place that Laurel saved her from. Because if Sara was finally at peace and Laurel took her away from that, that's not going to get Laurel any more fans. 

 

They should've used that shot of what looks like someone watching Sara's pitiful funeral and showed it was Rip Hunter, then reveal later that he dug up Sara's hours old corpse, took her to the future and put in her the Lazarus Pits (it's the future, the LP could be abandoned or hidden at that point). Rip could have it all to himself to resurrect Sara. Then they could've just had a happier sister reunion when Sara returns to the present. Instead because of what they are doing, I don't see how the sisters can be on better terms with Laurel piling more trauma onto Sara's already damaged psyche. I guess I can see why Sara decides to leave and travel through time and not want to spend that much time with her family. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

Maybe this could be done after Thea had had a a good week at the spa.

 

Right? I'm finding the entire gravedigging thing hilarious and super entertaining and lololololaurel, but THIS is what makes Laurel the worst for me: you offer to take someone on a relaxing spa trip, YOU TAKE THEM ON A RELAXING SPA TRIP. That's the law.

[Sakura12]

Right? I'm finding the entire gravedigging thing hilarious and super entertaining and lololololaurel, but THIS is what makes Laurel the worst for me: you offer to take someone on a relaxing spa trip, YOU TAKE THEM ON A RELAXING SPA TRIP. That's the law.

 

Exactly! A relaxing spa trip does not include digging up the woman you murdered to bring her corpse to the man that brainwashed you into killing her, then doing the same thing that happened to you to her. 

 

You also don't ask someone who is going slightly crazy what a good idea is. 

[Primetimer]

A mayoral campaign and a team member with rage issues? Sounds a little familiar.

Read the story

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't blame Laurel for WANTING Sara back. I have experienced that want, and I think it's a very human reaction. I get that we're probably not supposed to think that Thea is bad enough to turn Laurel off of the idea, but...nah, sorry. I wish they would've had Laurel not be so LAUREL about it. Even if she thought it through and still wanted to do it, I'd feel better about it if she'd given it some time to breathe. And given her some more time with Thea, so she seemed like she actually gave a shit about what she was going through.

I do think Laurel cares about Thea, and I know some disagree, but that scene where Thea started wondering if that's how Moira felt when Thea was kidnapped just reeked of Laurel wanting her to shut up so she could get more info about the LP.

[dtissagirl]

Gravedigging is like THE OPPOSITE of mani/pedis. For shame, Laurel.

[tv echo]

How convenient that Thea's craziness didn't overtly manifest itself until after Oliver was back in Star City to notice it.  How convenient that Laurel and Thea don't have a heart-to-heart about what happened to Thea in NP until now, despite living together for 5 months.

 

Did Laurel even ask Thea if she wanted to return to NP or just tell her?  If Oliver had been the one to tell Thea he was taking her back to NP to help her, she would've rebelled and said she can make her own decisions - and he'd be criticized in-show for being bossy and controlling.

 

Also, if there was a way to fix Thea simply by bringing her back to Nanda Parbat, wouldn't Oliver have thought of that or contacted Malcolm for more info? Instead, Oliver is shown leaving Thea alone to work it out. Incidentally, when Oliver was leaving, he kissed Thea on the cheek and he then passed Laurel and leaned in - who else thought he was going to kiss Laurel on the cheek as well?  Instead, he just asked her to watch over Thea. But instead of watching over Thea, Laurel decided to take her to NP and try to do whatever to her, without the knowledge of Thea's brother.

 

Sara's corpse should've been a lot more decomposed after a year.  How is Laurel going to transport the corpse to Nanda Parbat?  Are she and Thea going to put the corpse in a bag and carry it to the plane?  (Oh wait, Laurel carried Sara's arrow-ridden body from the alley to the foundry all by herself last year because she's so strong, so she won't need Thea's help.)  I'm assuming they're going to hire a private charter plane with a discreet pilot, since TA's only pilot, Oliver, is out of the loop. I'm also assuming that Thea's paying for the plane (with her inherited Malcolm funds) since I don't think an ADA's salary could afford it. They can't ask Felicity for a PT plane because Felicity would tell Oliver, unless they lie about the destination (but the pilot would have to file a flight plan). The only other alternative would be Laurel contacting Nyssa or Malcolm, and asking one of them to send a LOA aircraft to get them - but I don't know why either would do that. Also, I believe there was a spoiler that

one or both of them will be against resurrecting Sara.

 

Loved Lonnie Machin as Anarky.  I thought his stunt fighting sequence with Oliver was pretty flawless. If he had a stunt double, I couldn't spot it.  I call B.S. on Lonnie beating down Oliver, only to get beat down by the less trained Thea.  I'm guessing that Oliver's fighting not to kill the guy, which limits what he can do since he's been trained to kill.

 

I didn't quite understand DD's upset over Lonnie's actions, although I loved his line about order, discipline versus anarchy.  Lonnie's kidnapping the Danforth daughter was messy?  But blowing up a train and train station isn't?

 

The show is equating the CEO job with ownership of the company (eye roll).  Oliver lost his CEO position and somehow loses QC.  Felicity inherits PT and becomes its CEO.  Loved Curtis and his interactions with Felicity.  Also loved her line about how she's the only one who gets to speak in fragments. Of course, I loved the Oliver & Felicity talking together as a mini-team scenes - and a new fern!

 

I can now believe that Oliver can get elected Mayor, despite his lack of qualifications and experience.  Everyone else is too scared to run.  I do like and understand his motivation.

 

Wow - Elysia Rotaru's appearance was practically a cameo - and we still don't know her name.

 

Here's how they'll make Laurel heroic again (pure speculation) - next episode, we find out that the LP requires a life for a life in order to bring back someone who's been dead-dead for over a year. Then Laurel will heroically offer her own life, but of course something will happen and someone else ends up being sacrificed instead (Nyssa?).

Edited October 15, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Gravedigging is like THE OPPOSITE of mani/pedis. For shame, Laurel.

Maybe they stashed the corpse and then went for a mani?

[Menrva]

Maybe they stashed the corpse and then went for a mani?

I'm guessing that they skipped the mud bath and skin peel? Especially after exhuming a corpse…

[HighwayFlower]

I bet they thought this would make us love Laurel.... Like all the other things we were supposed to love about her that backfired. They need to realize it's not working and let Laurel be the one in the grave in 6 months.

[Starfish35]

and he then passed Laurel and leaned in - who else thought he was going to kiss Laurel on the cheek as well?

Hahaha yes, I had a split second of horror there. :)

[apinknightmare]

I bet they thought this would make us love Laurel.... Like all the other things we were supposed to love about her that backfired. They need to realize it's not working and let Laurel be the one in the grave in 6 months.

Just taking a wild guess here, but she'll probably have a "heroic" moment at some point during this resurrection arc, or she'll set into motion something that will have a positive result.

[Angel12d]

Diggle snubbed Felicity's little high-five near the start of the episode. This better be leading somewhere. Seriously. 

[dtissagirl]

Just taking a wild guess here, but she'll probably have a "heroic" moment at some point during this resurrection arc, or she'll set into motion something that will have a positive result.

 

Maybe they'll bring back the little kid from last week and he'll thank lolololaurel for bringing Sara back.

[Racj82]

I don't have an issue with Laurel and what she's doing. Didn't when I saw, didn't when I saw the anger it inspired and I still don't. it's the least shocking thing to me that she would do this. Oliver knew the risks and he did. I'm sure he would do it again. Now, Laurel is ignoring the risks because she just wants her sister back. Fine. I have zero issue here. She can help Thea and do this. She had to be underhanded at first because Oliver would have shut that shit down.

 

I miss my Felicity/Diggle time more than Diggle/Oliver. They have one of my favorite friendships on TV.

 

I love this Oliver. I really do. This show is never going to be sunshine and roses. I don't know why anyone wants that for this of Flash. Keep light sometimes. Of course, nothing wrong with that. But, there are also life and death situations going on and they are drama shows. But, I enjoy Oliver not being such a mopey drag.

 

Yay, the new guy is gay! I don't care. I'm also glad the show doesn't care. It's just a thing. I never like it when sexuality is made a big thing when it doesn't really matter in any way. He has a husband. Doesn't define him or anything.

 

I love how much we are embracing the hero aspects of the characters. The Arrow assisted zip line, the group jump down, the green and red bikes. It's just really fun.

[benteen]

I joked last season that Laurel dragging Sara's body to the Arrowcave would have probably been comedy gold.  I love the Sara character but I can't help but think there would be more comedy gold seeing how Laurel will drag her MUMMIFIED CORPSE to NP.

[TwistedandBored]

Arrow has pacing problems. They speed through stories that need more episodes and slow down on stories that don't need that much episodes.

 

They shouldn't have speed through the decision to resurrection Sara like this. They should have showed us why it is necessary for Laurel to resurrect her sister thus subject Sara to the unknown side effects of LP.

 

However, no matter how many times Laurel makes bad decisions the writers would allow her to realize her mistakes and learn from them. So, I have given up on making sense of Laurel's storylines. They are just there for me. I don't care one way or the other anymore. 

[apinknightmare]

I disagree that Oliver would've dug Thea out of her grave to LP her. I'm certain that the only reason he did it was because she was gravely injured. He would've done it if she was freshly dead, too. If grave robbing was involved? Nah. He never mentioned Pitting Moira.

Edited October 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[arjumand]

Remember he was on the bench for a few months.  It will take him awhile to get back into the swing of things.  You don't sit on the bench for months, and then dominate after getting thrown right back into the fire.  It takes some time, that's why sports leagues have training camps, and practices.

 

Also, I compared the fight in present day, to the fight in the flashback, which he won easily. So IMO, he's holding back during all his fights in the present day because he's promised not to kill anymore. And it's so much easier to kill (seriously, he knifed that guy on the island with terrifying ease), apparently, than to try and win a fight without putting someone in the ground.

 

Or he's been eating too much of his own cooking, I guess.

[benteen]

One little detail I missed that the AV Club review by Alasdair Wilkins pointed out...

 

 

•One fun little casting gag to having Jeri Ryan play Moira’s best friend: Ryan’s most famous credit has really got to be as Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager, and Susanna Thompson played the Borg Queen on a bunch of episodes.

 

[Sakura12]

I don't see what Oliver did for Thea the same as Laurel is doing for Sara. Thea wasn't dead and he had a chance to save her. Sara's been dead for months, her body is decayed. I don't think Oliver would've made the same decision if Thea had been dead for months. Otherwise what's stopping him from bringing back his mom and Tommy? 

 

Laurel never even asked Sara about the many traumas she's already been through and now she wants to subject her to more. I have no doubt that Sara will forgive Laurel for that, then give her, her blessing for taking her name (the color of the outfit still means nothing to me). Then go on her way to join Legends while Laurel smiles proudly thinking she's done a great and heroic thing. 

 

They've implied many times that what happens with Sara is why they are not bringing any more dead characters back. So that means whatever it is, it has to be heavily traumatizing to make everyone go with "we should never do that again".

 

I'm still hoping it's Sara's immortal now, because what is the next step for a character that always dies?  Now they can never die. She can have Captain Jack's ability from Doctor Who, she can get killed but always comes back to life. 

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver should have kicked tiny little Lonnie Machin's butt, holding back or not.  That was plot-driven BS.  And he's been avoiding killing people since 2.1, and yet still kicked major ass, so that is not an excuse either.

 

Really, this was a very, very poorly-written episode.  However, I am not raging about it like I was about most of S3.  As long as Oliver isn't a moronic manipulative controlling ahole, I'm fairly zen.  He and Felicity being cute together make me even more zen.  I think I'm finally getting to a place in which I can enjoy the show for the silly fluff it is instead of expecting more.

Edited October 15, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[popgoesculture]

Overall, I was so relieved to see Oliver/SA in a fight scene and then a parkour, because I'm having a hard time watching the others and their obvious stunt doubles. I understand not wanting to do/being unable to do them, but the show needs to accommodate their other actors better in the construction of the fight scenes. It just takes me out of it completely. (And I'm not even going to focus on the ridiculousness of Digg's helmet which still looks totally inane.) And Arrow's fight scenes used to make me so happy!

 

Loved Felicity's trepidation/excitement about being CEO, but again, this show is terrible at the business world. And the scene with the worker she fired made me groan aloud at the badness, due to a weird combo of writing/acting on the part of the person who was fired (I know she was played by EBR's best friend, and I was disappointed because it was such a poor delivery). 

 

And overall disappointed in this sudden bonding between Laurel and Digg that seems to come out of nowhere. Loved the Oliver/Thea scenes, but the Laurel/Diggle ones seem forced, and still no Felicity/Digg interaction or confrontation. 

 

Not even going to bring up how I think this plan to resurrect Sara is terrible, and that the show definitely threw Laurel to the wolves... also, why is everything Laurel says delivered with a vague air of hostility? The perpetually crossed arms don't help in my reading of her as always defensive. They need to add some nuance to her emotions, where she can smile/laugh/joke/etc. like we've seen occasionally with Digg, Thea, Felicity, and now even Oliver. It's like her intensity level is still up to 100, while everyone else's shows more fluctuation. I know things are dire in the city, but when are they not? 

[benteen]

I will say I did love the shot where Oliver fired the arrow line for Laurel to slide down on.  Well done, show.

I don't think Oliver would have dug up Thea's corpse either.

[Password]

He and Felicity being cute together make me even more zen.

What's awesome about the two of them is that they work well as friends and they work well as more than friends. They're a joy to watch being so in sync, and I totally agree with Guggie (shocker) that when they worked out their will they/won't they issues, they became perfectly happy.

The fact that they had will they/won't they issues because Guggie gives us what we need not what we want is something I'll happily ignore.

[bethy]

The issue to me of Laurel's absolute selfishness and stupidity is that there will be no consequences. WM has said that

Laurel and Oliver will go through a rough patch, but then be in a close working relationship

, so we're going to get the typical, Laurel does something wrong, people are mad, but then everyone moves on as if nothing happened. I could tell when they had Laurel stare blankly into space and murmur, "Because Oliver would do anything to save his sister," that the narrative will be "Laurel just loves so deeply that she acts rashly and la-di-da, doesn't she have a big heart? She just wants to save the world."

 

The ONLY way they can redeem this for me is to have Laurel explicitly and sincerely admit that she was wrong, that she acted selfishly, that she lied, and then apologize to the whole team. And then stay off her morally superior high horse when interacting with Oliver. I want to see humility and remorse. That is the first step in redeeming this character for me.

 

Having said that, I know it's not going to happen. Ultimately, Laurel will have done the right thing and everyone will tell her that. Oliver will be forced to apologize for having been mad - she's just got such a loving heart, dang it - and Laurel (and TPTB) will continue to act like she's a paragon of virtue. 

 

As of next week I will restart my fast-forwarding through all Laurel scenes. I gave her a chance and they blew it.

Edited October 15, 2015 by bethy

[Angel12d]

And the scene with the worker she fired made me groan aloud at the badness, due to a weird combo of writing/acting on the part of the person who was fired (I know she was played by EBR's best friend, and I was disappointed because it was such a poor delivery). 

 

Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Sorry to EBR's friend but she is not a good actress at all. It was kind of awkward. 

[bijoux]

I'm not saying that Laurel wanting to bring back her sister is not a human reaction. It is, that part I do understand, the idea of bringing a loved one back. What I don't understand is she's seen the side effects that Thea's having, she's heard Thea being afraid of hot tubs because of what she went through, and she's still thinking it's a good idea. Then it doesn't even seem like Nyssa being against it will change her mind either. Nyssa has seen what it did to her father and maybe to others. She loves Sara and doesn't want that for her. 

Laurel's just not a thinker. And I find that funny, considering she was supposed to be the brainiac when they were younger, yet it's Oliver and Sara that think (or used to) think things through.

 

I didn't quite understand DD's upset over Lonnie's actions, although I loved his line about order, discipline versus anarchy.  Lonnie's kidnapping the Danforth daughter was messy?  But blowing up a train and train station isn't?

I find Darhk pretty analytical, like he looks at the costs and benefits, and here in his opinion the costs outweighed the benefits. He's sort of like the CEO of Evil Inc. here.

 

Who is Zolo or Solo that Lonnie has worked for? Felicity made an ick face when she mentioned him and then Darhk mentioned him later. I'm guessing someone from the comics.