S05.E03: Siege Perilous

[Mathius]

and yes that scene between Hook and Rumple on the boat all those years ago Hook was the villain and he helped turn Rumple into a monster

No, Hook admitted he was the villain in that scenario, but he never made any connection between it and Rumple becoming a monster, and rightfully so. Rumple turned HIMSELF into a monster, in response to a situation that came up well after the one with Hook. Trying to say anyone helped turn him into a monster is as disingenuous as Regina blaming Rumple for turning her into a monster. When they say "evil isn't born, it's made", they mean SELF-made.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mathius

[MaiLuna]

I loved how Charming totally failed at the quest but still got the Siege Perilous. LOL. I know it was a ruse, but still. It wasn't like that was David's most heroic moment.

 

I love how JMo is playing Dark Swan. That scene on the ship was painful, but good. But I still have trouble with Hook's "I loved you". Jane tried to explain it to me on twitter, but I feel like that's going to haunt Emma a bit when she's no longer the Dark One.

It's a bit ironic how Dark Swan's quest right now is to turn someone into the purest hero.

 

I really enjoyed the Hook/Robin scenes. It's like Hook makes everyone likeable.

 

Are we sure Lancelot is really Lancelot? Wouldn't be the first time.

[Rumsy4]

David goes on a quest, makes an insta-friend, learns a Valuable Lesson about himself, and comes home empty-handed but okay with that because he gained something else. And then almost the same story is repeated in the present.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this storytelling device. They overused it in 3B. There's memory loss. A quest over some McGuffin is repeated twice in one episode. People relearn information they already discovered. It advances the plot a minuscule amount. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[CalamityBoPeep]

Looked like Monty Python’s black knight(s) defended the toadstool.  They kept moving even after Charming cut off various body parts.  I guess “It’s just a flesh wound”.

 

 

I laughed when Charms cut off the first head and the black knight put it right back on.  I said out loud "'Tis but a scratch!" and had to pause the show while I chuckled at myself.  The show really should take a bit of care not to just walk into these things.  I really think I was supposed to be all worried and agitated for Charming's situation there.

 

 

"I was the villain in that little drama. He was a good man trying to keep his family together." <-- Look at Hook, acknowledging that he did bad things in the past and had to change. Unlike some.

 

I'm coming to a theory of what's going on with this show.  The short version references back to some interview ages ago with A&E, in which they essentially said their whole idea was to create a show in which the hero and villain roles were turned on their heads.  Basically, I feel like they've failed in what they thought they were trying to do.  I think they always thought, from the beginning, that the audience would be on board for making the Evil Queen win, and frankly, I believe we've disappointed them, as an audience, by bringing the concepts of justice, responsibility and restitution to our viewing of what they've created.  I think they wanted to challenge our concepts of right and wrong (they've said as much), and every time they try to hammer home that Regina = Snow White = Emma, we keep not buying into what they're selling, and we keep seeing that Regina has never actually really had a true redemption.   So rather than realize that there is something fundamentally wrong with equating a Regina with an Emma, they're going to just destroy the Emma that we think we like, and go "See, now who's the fairest in all the land!?"  They've already done it with Snow, so I don't trust them to have finally come around to seeing that the story they thought they were telling was never the story they actually put on the screen.

 

See, this ^ quote shows that we actually can get it, if and when Regina actually truly takes responsibility and genuinely grows into an actual hero.  And the show does seem to know how to write such an arc.  A&E must actively have chosen not to, which makes it kind of maddening that they really do seem to believe that we should all be on board with how Regina "has changed."  How she's the hero here, how this is her story.  

 

I think the real problem they have is that, even if they thought that was the story they were writing in the first season, it's actually not the story they were telling.  That story would have to have been told through Regina's point of view, throughout.  They never should have shown us her irrational hatred of a 10 year old.  They never should have shown us the things that she really did... the rape of Graham (sob), the murders, the control.  I'm dreading what they do with this arc, even... they're showing us her hypocrisy, and her blatantly Evil Queen ways, but I don't trust them to not just hand wave all that away and say "no, no, really... she's the savior.  Ta da!  One good act redeems her at the end!"  At that point, the show will just have to be dead to me... if they're that blinded by what they think they were intending vs. what they actually did, there's really not going to be any point for me to even make the effort to stay with them.  As much as I enjoy seeing a very insightful Hook and an angsty Captain Swan.

 

 

Which is why I'll always find his redemption arc believable. How do the writers write something like that, then in the exact same episode give Regina the hypocrisy speech? How is that not intentional?

 

Exactly the idea I'm trying to flesh out for myself here... only with a lot fewer words, in your post. Heh.  They've just shown that they actually know what the ideas of regret, responsibility, restitution and reconciliation mean.  They must actually not even believe they need to do that with Regina.  It's like they want to be all artistically subversive of the concepts, but A&E's methods just really seem to miss the mark with the larger audience.  (The Regina fans "get it" of course, while average viewers seem to find the whole idea somewhat ridiculous.)

 

And I have now probably given the idea way more thought than the actual writers of the show.  I need to get a life.

 

 

So King Arthur is an evil dictator, Peter Pan is an evil cult leader, and Snow White is a lousy mother with dark spots on her heart.  They don't seem interested in making Prince Charming evil so they make somewhat useless and now a sucker.  

Thank goodness Frozen was still fresh so Disney wouldn't let them do their usual number on Elsa and Anya because, deep down, they really hate story book characters.

 

Yeah, seems like they really do hate the "good guys", huh?  I think Disney's control over the properties of Frozen went a long way toward making that arc as good as it was.  Of course, it was followed by 4B, which was virtually unwatchable.

 

I love how Hook described himself as the villain in the Rumple/Milah/Hook story. He really has gotten some self awareness since he met Emma. I love that he didn't let Dark One Emma play him. He knows the Dark One and Emma so well. I loved seeing the Jolly Roger. I love how Hook said he loved Emma's walls and that he was the one to break them down. Ugh, my heart!

 

That whole scene was so well done, I rewound to watch it again... just really appreciated the changes in Colin's face as he went from being straight with her, to putting up his shields in anticipation of her potential reaction.  Sailing or swimming away, indeed.  Oh how my heart broke for those two.  Emma clearly felt the pain of it too.  And yet, I don't see how he could have done anything else.  He showed way more strength and self-awareness in that scene than Belle has ever shown with Rumple.  Hook knew he may get hurt, but he wasn't going to go down as a victim.  So much fortitude.  Well done, Colin and Jen!

Edited October 12, 2015 by CalamityBoPeep

[ParadoxLost]

I love how JMo is playing Dark Swan. That scene on the ship was painful, but good. But I still have trouble with Hook's "I loved you". Jane tried to explain it to me on twitter, but I feel like that's going to haunt Emma a bit when she's no longer the Dark One.

 

 

Hook's reaction is one of those things that makes sense and doesn't at the same time.

 

I explain, to myself, Hook's 'I loved you' as Hook being the one person who would totally see Dark Swan as the Dark One entity that killed Milah and Emma both.  Where this falls apart is that in the beginning he believed Emma could fight the Darkness, so why doesn't he think she is still in there and can be reached?  This is another one of those areas where I think amnesia hurts the story because it takes away an explanation for why they are reacting to Emma this way this fast.

 

At least Hook hasn't gone back to being a villain because that is what I was expecting.  The two do dastardly deeds together and then when Emma is 'saved' there is a rift.  I think they are going with 'not Emma' because they don't want to deal with the consequences of this story arc.

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this storytelling device. They overused it in 3B. There's memory loss. A quest over some McGuffin is repeated twice in one episode. People relearn information they already discovered. It advances the plot a minuscule amount. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

It's sad, because this is the device David keeps getting handed since...I would say season 3, maybe even part of season 2. It's like the show lost inspiration in writing for David, or they just don't care enough, or whatever their stupid reasoning is, and they keep going to this device to keep David fans satisfied. Snow may keep getting 'Regina's cheerleader' as a device, but she gets a lot more time onscreen, talking and having other storylines, than David has. We barely know anything about David. We've gotten very little flashback episodes with him. Season 1 gave him a few, but now we're lucky if he gets to talk about his past. They gave him an obligatory 'episode' with Anna last season (I didn't watch 4B, so I don't know if he got anything there, besides with Snow) and he's gotten this adventure storyline with Arthur, while getting to talk about himself and his past. He even got to acknowledge, through the writers, that he hasn't gotten a heroic moment since kissing Snow thirty years ago (well, now it's more like thirty five). So, if the writers and the producers feel this way, why aren't they giving him anything to do? I know Arthur pretty much handed him the mushroom/toad thing so that doesn't count as a heroic moment for David. It was unearned by him, at least I feel like it.

 

This may turn out to be my favourite of this half season, however, just because David got a voice and he got to talk about himself and not about Snow or Regina solely. Also, Emma and Hook were fantastic and I pretty much forgot about Henry. Oh yeah, and minimal Regina. God knows she's gotten more than her fair share of screentime.

[Hookian]

Hook's reaction is one of those things that makes sense and doesn't at the same time.

 

I explain, to myself, Hook's 'I loved you' as Hook being the one person who would totally see Dark Swan as the Dark One entity that killed Milah and Emma both.  Where this falls apart is that in the beginning he believed Emma could fight the Darkness, so why doesn't he think she is still in there and can be reached?  This is another one of those areas where I think amnesia hurts the story because it takes away an explanation for why they are reacting to Emma this way this fast.

 

At least Hook hasn't gone back to being a villain because that is what I was expecting.  The two do dastardly deeds together and then when Emma is 'saved' there is a rift.  I think they are going with 'not Emma' because they don't want to deal with the consequences of this story arc.

 

Because his memories are wiped. The last thing he remembers is Emma wanting to get rid of the darkness.

 

So he doesn't know at all how to handle this, it's very complicated. He handled it well. DS was 100% trying to manipulate him in that scene and he wasn't gonna fall for her BS.

[Shanna Marie]

Where this falls apart is that in the beginning he believed Emma could fight the Darkness, so why doesn't he think she is still in there and can be reached?

My take is that he doesn't believe that the person currently talking to him is the Emma part of her. He's dealing with the Dark One, and as he said, Emma wouldn't manipulate him and play games like that. And it turns out he was right. He just missed what she was trying to get and played right into her hands because she was using his self-awareness and remorse as a weapon against him -- the same things he was trying to use to hold off the Dark One and maybe, possibly reach Emma. His resistance to darkness and regret for his past darkness might have strengthened whatever inner Emma is left. Unfortunately, that also gave the Dark One the clue to get what she needed.

 

I'm intrigued by the delicate balance here because I've never been entirely comfortable with the idea that romantic love should be entirely unconditional. Yes, you should be in it through thick or thin, and it shouldn't be affected by changing hairstyles, getting sick, gaining weight, having a bad day, losing money, being injured, etc. But if you're a decent person, I'd hope you'd fall out of love with someone who changed into the kind of person -- on a deep-down level, not a superficial level -- you never would have loved. If your loved one starts torturing and murdering people, then you probably should fall out of love with them. That's been my issue with Belle all along. Yes, she saw the good man Rumple had the potential to be, but he showed over and over and over again that he had no interest in being that good man. How many times does she have to watch him attempt to murder someone before she realizes that no, she doesn't love the person he is? Emma's not being a murderer right now, but her behavior with Hook strikes me as some other person wearing an Emma suit and using Emma's knowledge against him. She isn't being the person he loves.

 

Though the "I loved you" is kind of a weasel words way of putting it -- he's not committing to loving the current incarnation, he's expressing his feelings as they honestly were in the past, but he's not actually saying he doesn't currently love her. He's hedging his bets. It's almost like he has genre savvy, where he's aware that he's in a fairy tale, and in a fairy tale, words have power. If he said "I love you" that might have given her some kind of power over him. If he said he didn't love her, it might have severed every connection between them. But by saying "I loved you" he's telling the truth but perhaps not the whole truth, and not in a way that can be used against him.

[blugirlami21]

I liked the episode. I'm glad that Charming got something to do and it's nice too hear what he is feeling about Emma being the dark one. For a man/father of action, it must be very frustrating for him not being able to help Emma.

I do wish that Snow and Charming would actively try to help her like Hook is.

I felt so bad for Hook on his "date" with Emma. I don't fault him for being cautious. This isn't Emma anymore. To pretend otherwise would be a mistake. Him saying he loved Emma in past tense makes sense to me because that woman is no longer present. His demeanor is different because unlike in the enchanted forest, Emma is fully the dark one now.

As for Regina, I stopped expecting her to be a good person a long time ago. The writers seem content to let her have her cake and eat it too no matter what she does and who she does it to. There seems to be no awareness from her as a character or from the people who created her.

Edited October 12, 2015 by blugirlami21

[CalamityBoPeep]

 But if you're a decent person, I'd hope you'd fall out of love with someone who changed into the kind of person -- on a deep-down level, not a superficial level -- you never would have loved. If your loved one starts torturing and murdering people, then you probably should fall out of love with them. 

 

I wish I could like this whole post about a thousand times!  But I especially wish I could send this bit to both Robin and Belle.  Seriously, can Hook just hit them both with a clue-bat?

[The Wild Sow]

 

I laughed when Charms cut off the first head and the black knight put it right back on.  I said out loud "'Tis but a scratch!" and had to pause the show while I chuckled at myself.

That whole scene was very "Bedknobs and Broomsticks"!

[LizaD]

I'm on Arthur's side for now. He owes these people diddly squat and so far his goal is for his people and his kingdom. That's more than can ever be said for any of the others on this show. When he's shown to be a lot more selfish, like you know letting a mass murderer go free to continue terrorizing and killing peasants, I'll judge him harsher.

I liked that David got something to do and him and Arthur sounds good on paper but not buying the insta-bffs. Maybe they can ditch their wives and just go on shady adventures.

The problem I have with the Hook and Emma scene is Dark Swan really hasn't done a single evil thing, besides the horrific crime against hair dye. She's done more shady things as normal Emma, true story. So the thing is he's gone from "saving Emma" to defeating Emma in a nanosecond cause reasons, and amnesia. Instead of trying to reach her, he's out to beat her now for no good reason that I can see. It also goes against every single mantra this show has set out. Everyone has treated Dark Swan a million times harsher than Woegina or Rump has ever been treated combined and she's hasn't done anything. She stole an axe? OMG how evil. I'm glad she's not being coddled but on the other hand it just shows how unfair this show really sets it up. The towns folk were oh so evil for not eating Woegina's lasagna and it's their fault she wanted to kill them all but Emma? No way every single thing is all her fault and on her. Seriously you can't have it both ways and stack the deck against only one person.

This goes for Zelena too. Team Zelena all the way here. I'd be ok with a Zelena, Dark Swan, and Rump team up. I don't get the blank slate thing. You can't be a blank slate if you have all your memories and life experiences intact. Those experiences make up who you are and inform your choices. So yeah not buying that either. His slate might be wiped clean but it's not blank.

And on the show Hook keeps trying to separate Dark One from Emma but in every single interview the actors and the writers have maintained Emma is still Emma, just a bit off-color. So which is it?

Oh and Emma can't use her magic to free the one guy that can save her but it was all fine and dandy to force her to use it to save someone else? This show. I just can't.

Edited October 12, 2015 by LizaD

[FierceAfroChick]

The problem I have with the Hook and Emma scene is Dark Swan really hasn't done a single evil thing, besides the horrific crime against hair dye. She's done more shady things as normal Emma, true story. So the thing is he's gone from "saving Emma" to defeating Emma in a nanosecond cause reasons, and amnesia. Instead of trying to reach her, he's out to beat her now for no good reason that I can see. It also goes against every single mantra this show has set out. Everyone has treated Dark Swan a million times harsher than Woegina or Rump has ever been treated combined and she's hasn't done anything. She stole an axe? OMG how evil. I'm glad she's not being coddled but on the other hand it just shows how unfair this show really sets it up. The towns folk were oh so evil for not eating Woegina's lasagna and it's their fault she wanted to kill them all but Emma? No way every single thing is all her fault and on her. Seriously you can't have it both ways and stack the deck against only one person.

And on the show Hook keeps trying to separate Dark One from Emma but in every single interview the actors and the writers have maintained Emma is still Emma, just a bit off-color. So which is it?

This a billion times.

[snarkybelle]

Okay so Hook's sword that he pointed at Rumple was a basket hilted sword which Rumpelstiltskin stole in their duel when Killian met the Dark One.  The Dark One also stole Hook's other sword in Neverland, took it right from his belt.  Rude!  Then when they went back in time, Hook drew his sword when he was carrying Maid Marian because he knew the Dark One was going to kill them but instead he poofed them to his vault of terror sans Hook's sword.  

 

It is possible Hook stole his swords back from Gold's shop.  He found his telescope there and took it back.  That would be funny that Hook would steal his stuff back since he's good at breaking into his shop.  

 

But from watching the scene where Dark Swan uses the sword to wake Rumpel up, it's not the same sword.  The handle was plain, not the intricate basket handle.  Very bad prop people to not know which sword was used.  

[Shanna Marie]

So the thing is he's gone from "saving Emma" to defeating Emma in a nanosecond cause reasons, and amnesia. Instead of trying to reach her, he's out to beat her now for no good reason that I can see.

I didn't get that he was trying to beat her. He's trying to figure out what's up with her, which is the best way to go about saving her. He's not letting her use him (well, trying not to) or manipulate him, but he's trying to assess the situation, and part of that is finding out what she wants and what she's hiding. I'm not really sure what else he could be doing to save her right now. Would making earnest speeches about how there's still good in her do any good? He tried the True Love's Kiss, and that revealed that she doesn't want to be changed. Does that mean she's given in to the darkness, or does it mean that she has a reason for the darkness? If she has a reason, then he needs to find it, so he's trying to analyze her as best he can with a little verbal sparring and he wants to find out what she's hiding behind that door.

 

I did think he was trying to reach her in pointing out that, no, becoming the Dark One did not make Rumple a better person and by saying that he was the villain in that first encounter, that Rumple had been a good man. He was saying that getting that power wasn't necessarily making Emma a better person, and he even said he'd liked her walls, and he'd liked bringing them down, when she was claiming that it was being the Dark One that brought down her walls.

 

I wonder if they got some stock footage of the real Lady Washington because the establishing shots of the ship at dock and at sail looked like a real ship against a real sky, and slightly different from some of the other shots of the Jolly Roger.

 

And it was lovely the way that scene on the ship was lit, with Emma in her pink dress bathed in a golden glow, and Hook in shadows.

 

But yet again it's weird how he gets a "costume" while everyone else wears clothes -- in Camelot, they were all wearing different things from their ball attire, but Hook was still in the same thing he wore at the ball. He didn't get a change of clothes?

[Dianthus]

There's always been a double standard where Emma's concerned, and the other good guys as well. Normal human reactions, like, say, being PO'd at the bitch who's responsible for separating you from your parents so you grew up as an orphan, are way worse than actually being said bitch who did such a terrible thing (and so many other terrible things as well). Not to mention, said bitch is even now planning on separating another parent-to-be from her child, with threats and taunting thrown in for good measure, even as we're supposed to believe she's all good now. For all that she's shutting up other people, Regina's the one who really needs to STFU!

Bummed about DO Emma crushing Hook's cutlass, not to mention his heart (metaphorically). Glad I was spoiled for that. Made it easier to take.

Rumple had his heart wiped, not his brain! He should know better than anyone (even Hook) what the DO can do to you.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Dianthus

[Camera One]

Why do I keep hoping for Charming centrics?  The flashbacks weren't as bad as "White Out" but moments were certainly reminiscent of that episode, with some added tedium from "The Tower" thrown in.  The guy just can't win.  
 

The writers don't have the ability or the interest to write Charming with the complexity that he deserves, clear from the dreck we got in this episode.  By the end of it, they made him into a totally gullible simpleton.  So Charming's main concern was that he didn't feel like he earned his heroism since he was known for waking up Snow?  On paper, yes, this was something they should have dealt with... in Season 2.  But in this context, that was totally jarring.  They had that whole scene with Snow at the police station about feeling helpless about Emma, but Charming never mentioned Emma again for the rest of the episode.  Just like Charming/Anna, the banter between Charming and Arthur felt very forced.  The mention of his drunk father gave me bad flashbacks of "White Out".  Charming would have shared more similarities with Arthur than Anna, so in that sense, it wasn't as bad, but the whole manipulation angle made the "bonding" scenes fail.  I also needed more show and not tell in regards to Charming, since this "telling" just didn't work (also, the synopsis of the Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere triangle that Arthur gave just bored me) .  The sequence with David being made a knight of the table and given that Siege Perilous seat was just so cheesy.

 

The whole action sequence with the car and the horse was lame and a total waste of time.  Why would the Squire be riding towards the truck at the end?  The whole quest actually was as lame as the one in "The Tower" and it was obvious as hell Arthur either had the mushroom or knew that Charming might die getting it.

 

For the third episode in a row, the various character scenes just didn't pull together with any sort of cohesion.  The Emma/Hook stuff in this episode was done well (and I liked that they had Hook acknowledging that he was the villain when he threatened pre-Dark One Rumple), but those scenes along with Belle running around with that rose just didn't mesh very well with the rest of the stuff about Arthur, Charming, and the mushroom.

 

I thought Regina saying "You can't keep painting yourself as a victim.  It's absurd" and you don't deserve a second second chance was meant to be ironic and Zelena would bounce that back to Regina.  But nope... forget Regina, could the writers be so lacking in self awareness that they don't see the double standard?

 

Snow and Lancelot had more warmth and chemistry in that one scene than the other 39 minutes combined.  

 

Leroy had a lightbulb moment that Regina is their Savior but then goes off on Snowing about the stolen axe?  I just hate how this show deals with "friendship".  If they wanted to parallel something with Charming, why not parallel how Charming dealt with his subjects vs. how Arthur dealt with his, with the ultimate sacrifice at the end?

 

So in summary, thanks but no thanks for this Charming centric.  I'm so disappointed.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[kili]

Loved Emma offering to "bewitch" (wiggle her nose) Merlin out of the tree. Hated that the others won't let her do magic to save herself, but guilt her into using magic to save Robin.

 

Loved Belle being useful. Hated Belle not thinking to ask Killian if he had anything he had touched Rumple with...or Bae's scarf (which Milah made, so he definitely touched it before becoming the Dark One).

 

Loved Robin/Hook talking about the ultrasound ("Whoa Mate!" was awesome). Loathed with the heat of a thousand suns Regina hypocritically telling Zelena she has had her second chance and that she is absurd playing the victim. Pot meet kettle.

 

Loved Emma with the dwarves. Hated the dwarves storming the Sheriff's office. Like the Dark One listens to her parents.

 

Loved Charming fighting the armour (yes, it was like Bedknobs and Broomsticks, but that just made it better). Hated him getting duped (I noticed he was dressed to look like the toadstool (red outfit with silver bumps on it). Was that because he too was being kept in the dark and fed *beep*?) Hated the truck jousting. How stupid was Grif to just not ride off into the trees? Where did Arthur learn to drive a truck like that.]? Why didn't Charming fly out of the back of the truck when Arthur took that one turn? Were the laws of physics suspended?

 

Loved Emma and Hook on the boat. So much angst. I even liked how they are using Rumple's white heart. Well played show.

 

Poor Grif. Arthur is a total jerk. I noticed Grif poofed away in a puff of green. Was Zelena involved with that? I wonder if David has had the time to upgrade the betamax security system. Curious why Arthur did not want anybody talking to Merlin. 

 

All the time Arthur was carrying his torch thing with the skeleton hand, all I could think of is Draco with his "Hand of Darkness". Made me suspicious of Arthur right there.

 

I was curious to see that while Granny refused to serve Ursula and Cruella, she's happy to do take out orders for Emma. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by kili

[Scovies]

The problem I have with the Hook and Emma scene is Dark Swan really hasn't done a single evil thing, besides the horrific crime against hair dye. She's done more shady things as normal Emma, true story. So the thing is he's gone from "saving Emma" to defeating Emma in a nanosecond cause reasons, and amnesia. Instead of trying to reach her, he's out to beat her now for no good reason that I can see.

 

While we haven't seen Emma do anything Regina- or Rumple-level awful, she did close out the season premiere by wiping everyone's memories, turning someone to stone, and taunting her loved ones for failing her and saying they needed to be punished. She's also currently on a mission to "snuff out the light." I don't think comparing her and how everyone reacts to her to Regina is all that helpful, because Regina is generally terribly written while Emma is not.

 

I loved that CS scene because Hook knew that DO!Emma wasn't trying to have a heart-to-heart with him -- she was using every trick in the book to manipulate him. He thought she had an ulterior motive and he was absolutely correct. He was spot-on with his Rumbelle comparison (and god, how toxic is THAT relationship?) and wasn't about to enable her. He saw how Belle's love for Rumple wasn't enough to save him from his love of power, and got confirmation of it last week when his TLK didn't work because Emma doesn't think being the Dark One is anything that needs to be fixed.

 

The DO curse is seriously fucking with Emma's moral compass -- she actually tried to say that becoming the DO made Rumple better, and I was thrilled that Hook called her on it while owning up to his own past at the same time. While I'm really loving DO!Emma -- her going off on Regina last week was awesome, and JMo is absolutely killing it -- as a piece of entertainment, I don't trust her as far as I can throw her.

 

I do think there are greater forces at play that we don't know about and she's probably not as evil as they're making her out to be (I'm guessing she "embraced the darkness" for a seemingly "good" reason), but that doesn't mean she should be coddled.

[twoods]

Glad to see Lancelot is back! Loved him the first time around.

I think it's interesting that Arthur is a gray character. He's pissed he's in Storybrooke because he trusted the crew who brought the Dark One into his kingdom. I like that he's not full on evil- interested to see why Lancelot says he's a villain.

Poor Captain Swan- my heart broke.

Did not see Dark Swan resurrecting Rumple so he can be the hero. Nice way of getting the actor back in the mix.

[regularlyleaded]

I think the problem I see with Hook’s approach to Dark Emma is that for all that Hook isn’t trying to enable Dark Swan (and he shouldn’t) and for all that Dark Swan metaphorically “crushed” Hook’s heart in that scene, Hook clearly crushed Emma’s as well. The Emma that is somewhere underneath Dark Swan peaked out and it was a look of someone that had been totally crushed by what he said to her. So it’s seems that as much as he’s trying to help her, it’s only helping push her deeper into the darkness. If Hook’s intent was to reach out to her, then telling her “He loved her” past tense wasn’t the way to phrase it, perhaps.

And before anybody gets out their pitchforks, I’m not saying Hook is being mean here. He shouldn’t be telling Dark Swan “yay! I love your darkness”. No way, that’s not gonna help and he’s being very truthful with her and I don’t question his intent. But telling her he used to love her and leaving it at that? It's simply my opinion that Hook has hurt his cause right there more than he helped.

Hook was playing the game as much as Dark Emma was. He was trying to get information out of her as she was from him. In the end, they both lost in one way or another.

And because it bears repeating: I’m not hating on Hook or blaming him for what’s happening. (seriously, put your pitchforks down. Don't think I don't see you! ;). Hook's choices right now seem to range from bad to worse. It’s just that I think he’s unintentionally, and despite the best of intentions, fallen upon “worse” choice right now. But that's almost the point of this whole arc -- that the best of intentions can have horrible consequences. That's as much true for Dark Swan as it is for Hook and everyone else trying to "help" Emma. 

[Blue Plastic]

Loved seeing both Rumple and Gold in the same scene.  Too bad they can’t interact directly.

This might cause a tear in the space-time continuum!  It is too bad, though.  I would love to see them interact, even though the Rumple in Emma's head isn't really supposed to be there.  I have always liked sparkly, crazy-eyed Rumple, at least in small doses, and will miss him if they don't find some way to keep him around.

 

Yes I have my doubts.  Unless he is wiped so clean he has no personality, I would assume there is some pre-DO Rumple fear and cowardice that would stand in the way of heroism.  And since he has memories of the DO (and presumably him as the DO) I would think his prior desire to take revenge on those who wronged him and do evil things would also get in the way. 

Yup, totally agree.  Gold seemed to have his memories upon waking up, as evidenced by knowing that he had been the Dark One and realizing that Emma was now occupying that position.  If he's basically back to "powerless coward" mode but with his Dark One memories intact, that's not a "clean slate."  He will just be desperate to regain power, I would expect.  Emma may have a harder road to hoe than she thinks.

 

The contrast between Hook and Regina was quite strong.  Surely that can't be an accident.  I'm starting to expect some kind of even bigger redemption scene for Regina where she "really gets it this time."  Maybe I'm wrong but they really went out of their way to show how much more thought Hook has given his past than Regina has hers.

 

Hated all the scenes with Charming and King Arthur.  I think maybe Charming has suffered some brain damage, maybe from the blood loss during the fight with Regina's army right before they all got transported to Maine.  Arthur sure got the hang of driving quickly.  That was really stupid.  Not sure what Snow's excuse is for being such a dunce.  So disappointed that they haven't tried to talk to Emma yet.  That's the least they could do since most of the time they make sure to let her know that Regina is way more important to them.

[LizaD]

While we haven't seen Emma do anything Regina- or Rumple-level awful, she did close out the season premiere by wiping everyone's memories, turning someone to stone, and taunting her loved ones for failing her and saying they needed to be punished. She's also currently on a mission to "snuff out the light."

That's what I'm saying. That's all super lame stuff for someone who is supposed to be the DO, the darkest of dark. She turned a dwarf into a stone that was reversible. She could've killed him, now that would be evil. Wiping memories is child's play at this point for that town. At least she only took 6 weeks. Taunting? That's evil? Even so, her taunts need serious work. I think Granny throws out insults better than she does. Hell she's said meaner and bitchier stuff to her parents and Hook as regular old Emma. They don't know about her super duper secret snuffing mission that currently has no meaning to us either. For all we know, it could just mean wiping out the electric grid in town ala Elsa last season.

The power thing also makes zero sense. Unlike Rump who didn't have magic before and presumably got addicted to magic and the power it brought, Emma had all of that before and didn't care for it. She had one of the most powerful magic anyway and she wanted to give all that crap up to go live in NYC. They're going to have to explain that and not just brush it off with Emma likes power now as one of the writers on twitter did.

If she's going to be treated as a real threat and force of evil then do it. It's like what they did with Eva or Snow. They acted like those 2 were the worst human beings ever and all Eva did was pull a Jerry Springer. She's getting the flack and the consequences so have her earn it! That's all I'm saying. I guess i just expected more from Dark Swan than Evil Eva or Dark Spot Snow.

[kitticup]

Frankly, I am glad DO Emma has done anything too bad. I don't want her to stoop to Regina's and Rumple's level. I want her to be redeemable and able to live with herself after the curse breaks and she is no longer the DO. Perhaps her innate goodness is keeping her from literally crushing Hook's heart for breaking hers or hurting the dwarves.

I like the episode. I like seeing Charming sword fight. Josh makes it look so good. I like that Charming was frustrated at not being able to help Emma. He wants to be a save his daughter , like a hero should. I like that Snow was the one to come up with idea to talk to Merlin and that Regina complimented her brilliance. I liked the Snowing scenes. Ginny looked very good tonight. I liked her Camelot outfit more than the ball outfit.

I loved the dwarves and the October goblet.

I like that Hook realized that Emma had tried to distract him from the door previously and again on the ship. I had trouble hearing over the music, so I am a little annoyed. I did like his self-awareness. I think Bae's anguish at learning his mother ran away with Hook filled him with regret.

I liked Hook and Hood.

I am not sure how evil Arthur is. He may be misguided.

The only thing I didn't like was the Regina/zelena scene. I was so glad I was spoilt for that so it didn't have the same impact. Seriously, the writers must realize what a hypocrite Regina is.

Almost forgot but I thought Belle looked gorgeous in Camelot.

Edited October 12, 2015 by kitticup

[Camera One]

I too am glad that Dark Emma hasn't done anything truly evil.  I wish they would have her question Mirage Rumple's "Snuff Out the Light" plan, at least a little.  I still don't buy why she would want to do it. 

 

I thought Emma was going to try to use Charming to pull out Excalibur.  Or is he no longer a hero because he kidnaps babies.   The "let's turn Blank Slate Rumple into a true hero" plan makes no sense.   Why would he be a "blank slate" anyway. There's actually a healing spell called "A Spell For Healing Former Dark Ones After the Dark Blob Gets Pulled From Their Bodies"?  Riiiiight.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[PixiePaws1]

Now that I have seen the whole CS scene and backed that up with the scene of DS waking Rumple (Geez, how freaking cold was she in that Rumple scene - absolute frigid bitch to the core) I am convinced that even that sad little ‘I’m so broken hearted’ look she gave Killian was ALL acting to stick the boot in, I don’t think she felt anything at all other than ’Yay, I have what I need to wake Rumple and mopey pirate can stay and play on his ship out of my way’.

The tidbit I thought was very interesting was DS saying she was better as the DO - that it fixed her scarred, broken self- I’d love to think this is what could really be the cause of the TLK not working (if it isn‘t Emma playing the long con to get rid of the Darkness once and for all). Emma is running away again by letting the DO take over and using the Darkness’ strength to ‘fill in’ all the broken pieces of her former self. She can never be hurt again and It isn’t the power she wants - it’s the strength. The Darkness really knows which buttons to press to make her dance.

But yeah . . .there’s the whole ‘snuff out the Light’ thing- and I am choosing to see that, although earworm Rumple is pointing her towards family and love as the light to be snuffed, that the Darkness is deceiving her and the light being snuffed will be what’s left of pre-DO Emma‘s light magic. If any of her is still in there she has been shoved into a very deep dark hole. Maybe that is why the DS is trying so hard to make people see that there is ‘just’ Dark Emma. If they think old Emma is completely gone/taken over then they’ll stop interfering in the DO’s plans.

 

I have been so upset by this DS arc and I realised that it was because I have sort of been ‘grieving’ for Emma - she effectively died sacrificing herself for everyone else. She was such a fragile, beautiful soul who was finally starting to get the good things she deserved and then  . . .wham! I am guessing we will get Emma back, in that the Darkness will be removed, but she’ll be forever marked by it. I doubt that the writers on this show would allow for the true emotional aftermath to play out as it should, ‘cos Regina‘s next crisis will take centre stage.

 

 

My take is that he doesn't believe that the person currently talking to him is the Emma part of her. He's dealing with the Dark One, and as he said, Emma wouldn't manipulate him and play games like that. And it turns out he was right. He just missed what she was trying to get and played right into her hands because she was using his self-awareness and remorse as a weapon against him -- the same things he was trying to use to hold off the Dark One and maybe, possibly reach Emma. His resistance to darkness and regret for his past darkness might have strengthened whatever inner Emma is left. Unfortunately, that also gave the Dark One the clue to get what she needed.

 

I'm intrigued by the delicate balance here because I've never been entirely comfortable with the idea that romantic love should be entirely unconditional. Yes, you should be in it through thick or thin, and it shouldn't be affected by changing hairstyles, getting sick, gaining weight, having a bad day, losing money, being injured, etc. But if you're a decent person, I'd hope you'd fall out of love with someone who changed into the kind of person -- on a deep-down level, not a superficial level -- you never would have loved. If your loved one starts torturing and murdering people, then you probably should fall out of love with them. That's been my issue with Belle all along. Yes, she saw the good man Rumple had the potential to be, but he showed over and over and over again that he had no interest in being that good man. How many times does she have to watch him attempt to murder someone before she realizes that no, she doesn't love the person he is? Emma's not being a murderer right now, but her behavior with Hook strikes me as some other person wearing an Emma suit and using Emma's knowledge against him. She isn't being the person he loves.

 

Though the "I loved you" is kind of a weasel words way of putting it -- he's not committing to loving the current incarnation, he's expressing his feelings as they honestly were in the past, but he's not actually saying he doesn't currently love her. He's hedging his bets. It's almost like he has genre savvy, where he's aware that he's in a fairy tale, and in a fairy tale, words have power. If he said "I love you" that might have given her some kind of power over him. If he said he didn't love her, it might have severed every connection between them. But by saying "I loved you" he's telling the truth but perhaps not the whole truth, and not in a way that can be used against him.

 

I can cling happily to the idea that Killian very clearly believes there is still a way to save her and that he can tell when DO is trying to work him. I think he’s very disappointed that Emma doesn’t seem to be fighting back but he’s not believing a word out of her mouth. . . And that he still loves her, ‘cos he never said that he doesn’t, he had most definitely hedged his bets. He’s just not going to be her (willing) minion. He is still going to love her when she is de-Darked. People are always evolving/changing and their partners either embrace the changes or get out of the relationship. Emma carrying ‘leftovers’ from her time as the DO will be different, but not enough that Killian is going to stop loving her fiercely. My fragile shipper hear just can't handle thinking any other way right now . .. .*sob*

Edited October 12, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[regularlyleaded]

Now that I have seen the whole CS scene and backed that up with the scene of DS waking Rumple (Geez, how freaking cold was she in that Rumple scene - absolute frigid bitch to the core) I am convinced that even that sad little ‘I’m so broken hearted’ look she gave Killian was ALL acting to stick the boot in[...]

Sorry, to disappoint you? but she was genuinely brokenhearted by what he told her. Eddy Kitsis confirmed as much at the NYCC panel when they screened the episode. When asked about the look Emma gave Hook after he said "I loved you", before she disappeared, Kitsis said that look was Emma brokenhearted.

 

I think it's important to keep in mind that even Dark One Rumpel at his worst loved Belle. Dark Emma still loves Hook. I think the show has made it pretty clear that Dark Emma, despite the darkness does love him. So Hook's rejection of Dark Emma hurt her as much as Belle kicking Dark One Rumpel to the curb hurt Rumpel. I'm not saying Belle and Hook didn't have justified reasons, but that doesn't mean it hurt their Dark One significant other any less.

 

...I'm vaguely amused that based on very little actual evil* many have already condemned Emma. (*And by little evil I mean none. Actually, as it stands, Arthur has a higher body count. As someone else pointed out upthread, Emma's biggest confirmed evil acts that we know of right now is that she turned Sneezy to stone, which was easily reversed, and she's said people need to be "punished". Ooooh. So much EVUL. Personally, I'm glad she's not really evil. )

[PixiePaws1]

Sorry, to disappoint you? but she was genuinely brokenhearted by what he told her. Eddy Kitsis confirmed as much at the NYCC panel when they screened the episode. When asked about the look Emma gave Hook after he said "I loved you", before she disappeared, Kitsis said that look was Emma brokenhearted.

Obviously I didn't know that and I would much rather base my observations.thoughts on fact - so thank you so much for setting me straight . . .however much it hurts :o)))

 

I am also very glad she hasn't mas murdered any villages, raped anyone or murdered her father .. .oops, sorry -confused Dark One with True Evil for a second there (!) . .because de-Darked Ems has to live with herself and hopefully not behind any newly erected walls!

[KAOS Agent]

I was really bored by this episode. I like David, but his centrics are always meaningless magical MacGuffin searches and a waste of my time. I just don't get David and his need to quest to prove he's a hero or whatever. So he sets out on this journey to get a toadstool which is good because it's supposed to help Emma, but his failure to get it doesn't bother him and instead he's all yay! party! I'm a knight of the roundtable. Like what? Plus, he's just so obviously being played it makes me sad. David is dumb.

 

Can we just have a scene every episode where Emma messes with the dwarves? They suck. Oh noes! Emma stole our axe. She must die! I was kind of irritated how in the premiere Snow characterized bringing them along to Camelot as because they wanted to help Emma. No, they wanted to go on an adventure because they were bored. They had zero interest in Emma. 

 

I'm intrigued by Emma's quest to make Rumpel a hero. It worked for Rumpel in Season 1, so while I get really, really tired of the parallels (which I call lack of new ideas), this one is kind of fun.

 

Regina/Zelena is not for nothing. That whole thing was so clearly showing Regina's hypocrisy (and I will note that one of the actors called this out as a theme at Comic Con, so no one is blinded to this). I'd also note that I've seen a lot of fans of the show who are not character stans pick up on this stuff that's going on around Regina. It's not just haters at this point who have started questioning what's up with the new "saviour"

 

Oh, Captain Swan. I have a whole lot of problems with what's going on there. It's not how the individual characters are reacting that's the problem either because I really loved Hook refusing to enable Emma and acknowledging his past villainy and calling her out on her crap. Also, I did find it amusing that the guy who can read her like a book didn't guess that he'd already given her what she wanted. I could write a novel here about this, but it's better in a different thread. Here's the deal. Dark!Emma has said that there is just Emma. Dark!Rumpel was always Rumpel. Both acknowledged that they are doing bad things by their own choice. They are not blaming the Darkness for their actions. Even Hook said that he was a villain. He did not blame Pan for making him a bullying pirate who taunted a crippled man trying to keep his family together. Thus, I am to believe that Emma is still Emma, just one who is behaving badly. Hook is separating her from Emma and calling her the Dark One. This doesn't work for me and it's associated with the past tense use of love. There are all kinds of nasty connotations that come from that and yeah, the pitchforks come out in force when you try to touch it even though it's a writing issue and not a character one.

 

Lastly, how sad was it that Emma said embracing the Darkness took away all her fear and fixed all her broken parts? We know Emma lived her life being rejected & feeling unloved, so scared of it all that she built walls so that no one could reject her again. If the Darkness helped her with this, it's no wonder she doesn't want to give it up.

Edited October 12, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[regularlyleaded]

Obviously I didn't know that and I would much rather base my observations.thoughts on fact - so thank you so much for setting me straight . . .however much it hurts :o)))

Hee, ya, I really wasn't sure if you'd be disappointed or not because sometimes people don't like knowing for sure. *shrug*

 

With regards to characters prematurely condemning Emma - 

The more I think about it the more the dwarves reactions to Emma annoyed me. Okay yes, she's not playing very nice with them, but she's saved their butts and the whole town how many times without so much as a thanks? Enhance your calm, Dwarves. The only bright side of the Dwarves storming into the sheriff's office to demand Snow and David do something about her was Snow and David actually defending Emma. I'd forgotten what that looked like. It was nice. Hehe, Snowing had zero f*cks to give about The Dwarves' demands. 

[patchwork]

I know this is episode was a repeat of many a Charms episode but I still liked especially because it connects him to the main story. 

 

I have a wild theory that Arthur is dead and Merlin is masquerading as him because Excalibur needs to be healed. I'm not sure where No-Longer-Dead-Or Cora'd Lancelot fits in but I hope we find out soon. 

The only way Mary Margaret (and she seems to have made the decision to be MM not Snow White in Offscreenville based on David correcting himself) would believe Arthur is up to something is if someone she's trust comes up to her and announces the shadiness.

 

I'll be surprised if the Nevengers remember the Sheriff station has CTV so Arthur is going to get away with Griff's death for a while.

 

CS are breaking my heart along with their own but I loved that Hook knew she was after something and that he still has a consistent redemption arc going on. I really wish the show would do the same for Regina, at this point she needs a full reset. Go full on evil and then do her redemption story right without any shortcuts, I vote for Robin's death. Zelena kills Robin escaping to OZ, full of rage Regina follows her doing something to slow down the others so they can't follow immediately, the war between the sisters is ugly and vicious but the Charmings bring Regina back to her senses and the redemption arc begins again.   

Edited October 12, 2015 by patchwork

[Writing Wrongs]

What did Emma & Hook said after she asked him if he loves her? The music was too load, I couldn't hear a thing.

Hook: I guess I'm either steering home or swimming home. Tell me which.

 

Emma: The ship is yours. *poof*

[MMR]

 

I think they always thought, from the beginning, that the audience would be on board for making the Evil Queen win, and frankly, I believe we've disappointed them, as an audience, by bringing the concepts of justice, responsibility and restitution to our viewing of what they've created.  I think they wanted to challenge our concepts of right and wrong (they've said as much), and every time they try to hammer home that Regina = Snow White = Emma, we keep not buying into what they're selling, and we keep seeing that Regina has never actually really had a true redemption.

 

Few people on this board who don't like Regina is not OUAT audience. It's just few people who watch the show.

Regina has a huge fanbase who actually saw that she really had a true redemption. That being said, as Regina fan I must say that I didn't like her scene with Zelena. But that scene was more about making the audience fell sorry for Zelena than it was about anything else. And I'm sure that when the time comes Zelena will have her baby and all will be good.

 

 

See, this ^ quote shows that we actually can get it, if and when Regina actually truly takes responsibility and genuinely grows into an actual hero.

 

I don't remember Hook ever taking any responsibility for what he did ti Bell, or actually genuinely apologize to her. You know Like Regina did! I don't remember Hook ever sacrificing his own life to save anyone, like you know Regina did, last time previous episode. And I can go on and on but I'm not into essays.

[Amerilla]

Haven't watched yet, but...did they explain why Emma just didn't look for Bae's shawl as something that had touched Rumpel before Dark One-ed-Ness befell him?

[Panopticon]

Are we sure Lancelot is really Lancelot? Wouldn't be the first time.

It bugged me that Snow didn't take any steps to try to establish that Lancelot was Lancelot for real. As many imposters as these people have seen (plus a few dangerous undead sorts) that should be second nature.

Though the "I loved you" is kind of a weasel words way of putting it -- he's not committing to loving the current incarnation, he's expressing his feelings as they honestly were in the past, but he's not actually saying he doesn't currently love her. He's hedging his bets. It's almost like he has genre savvy, where he's aware that he's in a fairy tale, and in a fairy tale, words have power. If he said "I love you" that might have given her some kind of power over him. If he said he didn't love her, it might have severed every connection between them. But by saying "I loved you" he's telling the truth but perhaps not the whole truth, and not in a way that can be used against him.

I liked that and thought it was done well. Leave it to Hook, the man who spent centuries chasing a Dark One who traded in names, to understand the value of words. He doesn't give the Darkness any power now (I mean, he did with the last ingredient to bring back Rumpel, but he won the battle he was aware of) and he leaves a loophole for later. It's going to be hard for light!Emma to accept the "well technically I never said I don't love you" but I think she will, and it will be better than nothing.

Almost forgot but I thought Belle looked gorgeous in Camelot.

She did, but I was slightly distracted when she and Regina stood next to each other in their similar red/green dresses. Like the strangest Christmas party ever.

Hook: I guess I'm either steering home or swimming home. Tell me which.

Emma: The ship is yours. *poof*

Thanks for getting the exact quote. I love the word choice from both of them. It was an eloquent way for Hook to say that the conversation was over with or without Emma's permission. And Emma's "the ship is yours" is a bit loaded considering what he's traded that ship for in the past, and how he got it back.

It's a shame the exchange was so hard to hear.

[Panopticon]

Haven't watched yet, but...did they explain why Emma just didn't look for Bae's shawl as something that had touched Rumpel before Dark One-ed-Ness befell him?

They did not. There were plenty of unmentioned reasons that Belle should have been able to finish the job herself and that Emma should have been able to do it without the Captain Swan angstfest.

But both the angstfest and the episode tag revival scene were excellent so I forgive the plot hole.

[Mari]

Regina/Zelena is not for nothing. That whole thing was so clearly showing Regina's hypocrisy (and I will note that one of the actors called this out as a theme at Comic Con, so no one is blinded to this). I'd also note that I've seen a lot of fans of the show who are not character stans pick up on this stuff that's going on around Regina. It's not just haters at this point who have started questioning what's up with the new "saviour"

This is good to know--so there's some hope that Regina's raging hypocrisy is deliberate and will be addressed?   I didn't realize it had actually come up at Comic Con.

 

 

Haven't watched yet, but...did they explain why Emma just didn't look for Bae's shawl as something that had touched Rumpel before Dark One-ed-Ness befell him?

Nope.

[Hookian]

Thanks for getting the exact quote. I love the word choice from both of them. It was an eloquent way for Hook to say that the conversation was over with or without Emma's permission. And Emma's "the ship is yours" is a bit loaded considering what he's traded that ship for in the past, and how he got it back.

 

 

Actually I think that line is a double entrede. For one like you said it was loaded because of the implications to home but also I think it was also to confirm the fact that Emma was going for the ship in the first place. She wanted his ship, she had no idea about the cutlass until during the conversation. So she needed the ship basically to wake up Rumple, so Killian was completely in the right to not trust her and as we see later on she was manipulating that whole situation completely.

[KAOS Agent]

I want to give Emma an A+ for manipulation. Hook knew she wanted something and never picked up on the fact that he gave it to her. What was significant there was that Emma stayed around after she'd gotten the information she needed.

 

She was also really, really obvious about her caginess of what's behind the door. Flashing neon sign saying, "Look Here!" $50 says Emma allows herself to be manipulated out of the house and plants something behind the door that helps Hook/Snowing/Regina figure out the shadiness of what went down in Camelot. Since I think she actually can't tell anyone what happened and they don't trust her anyway, leave a trail of breadcrumbs to get them to come to the answer on their own.

[Hookian]

I want to give Emma an A+ for manipulation. Hook knew she wanted something and never picked up on the fact that he gave it to her. What was significant there was that Emma stayed around after she'd gotten the information she needed.

 

She was also really, really obvious about her caginess of what's behind the door. Flashing neon sign saying, "Look Here!" $50 says Emma allows herself to be manipulated out of the house and plants something behind the door that helps Hook/Snowing/Regina figure out the shadiness of what went down in Camelot. Since I think she actually can't tell anyone what happened and they don't trust her anyway, leave a trail of breadcrumbs to get them to come to the answer on their own.

And she knows Killian will never give up and they made that very clear in the final scene. He wants answers and he will get them to save the woman he loves like the vow he made in the last episode.

[PixiePaws1]

Actually I think that line is a double entrede. For one like you said it was loaded because of the implications to home but also I think it was also to confirm the fact that Emma was going for the ship in the first place. She wanted his ship, she had no idea about the cutlass until during the conversation. So she needed the ship basically to wake up Rumple, so Killian was completely in the right to not trust her and as we see later on she was manipulating that whole situation completely.

Holy crap!!! You think she'd have taken the ship to crumble over Rumple if she hadn't found out about the cutlass? ??? Wow....there's outright mustache twirling, kill your enemies villainy....and then there's taking a man's ship. I certainly couldn't forgive her for that, but then I'm not in love with the pre-DO!

That's. ....low. Really scary low....

[Hookian]

Holy crap!!! You think she'd have taken the ship to crumble over Rumple if she hadn't found out about the cutlass? ??? Wow....there's outright mustache twirling, kill your enemies villainy....and then there's taking a man's ship. I certainly couldn't forgive her for that, but then I'm not in love with the pre-DO!

That's. ....low. Really scary low....

 

Well I'm not sure if the ship would have crumbled moreso she would have moved Rumple on board the ship and potentially sacrifice a part of it to wake him up but she was definitely going for the ship. She had no idea about the cutlass until Hook revealed the information to her. 

[kili]

So she needed the ship basically to wake up Rumple, so Killian was completely in the right to not trust her and as we see later on she was manipulating that whole situation completely.

Interesting theory. Yes, the ship would have done as well and she may have been letting him have one last date on it before she took it (then she found about the easier to transport cutlas - all the Dark Ones take his cutlass).

 

I don't remember Hook ever taking any responsibility for what he did ti Bell, or actually genuinely apologize to her. You know Like Regina did! I don't remember Hook ever sacrificing his own life to save anyone, like you know Regina did, last time previous episode.

 

 

This just illustrates how people see things differently. While he may not have genuinely apologized to Belle, he has taken full responsibility for what he has done to many characters and made amends. Meanwhile, the apology from Regina to Belle was one she was forced to make by Belle so that she could get something that she wanted. That's not all that sincere. And then she took Belle's heart and made her say mean things to her loved one, meaning she now owes her another apology. Regina has an entire town full of people to apologize to, so she's just getting started with her Belle apology. While Regina did offer to sacrifice her life for Robin last week, she did not die. Hook did die to save Emma, Henry and their quest to return the world back to what it should be. And he has put his life on the line many other times. As has Regina. All the heroes of SB have risked their lives many times.

 

Charming is easily distracted with quests. Just give him something noble to do and he forgets pretty much everything else. I'm surprised he didn't jump in the water again to rescue the toadstool from those knights. That was all kind of Harry Potterish there with how the dead only got animated when he had gotten to the island and got what he came for (and did not really get it). Arthur is a little passive about quests letting Charming do the heavy lifting. 

[MMR]

 

Hook did die to save Emma, Henry and their quest to return the world back to what it should be.

 

That's an alternate universe, not real Hook so it doesn't count, but since you mentioned it, Regina also died there for same reasons as Hook.

[Rumsy4]

Maybe Rumple didn't touch Bae's shawl until after he had lost him.

The ship-theory is brilliant! Emma might well have come for the Jolly Roger. That would have been horrific. Smart of Hook to have sort of guessed that.

Thus, I am to believe that Emma is still Emma, just one who is behaving badly. Hook is separating her from Emma and calling her the Dark One.

This is not a writing issue--this is a Hook issue. He spent centuries loathing the Dark One. Now the love of his life has taken on that mantle Besides, he is hurt and angry by Emma's mind-games and obvious manipulation of him. It's going to take him a while before he can see Dark One Emma as Emma. Was the "I loved you" harsh? Maybe. But this came from a place of hurt, confusion, and anger. Edited October 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[scenicbyway]

If Emma was going to cure Rumple with the ship, why the date with Hook?  Why not just bring Rumple to the ship, crumple a floorboard over him and call it a day?  She wanted to spend time with Hook, and it looks like they were out long enough to finish their meal and have a heavy conversation, we know Charming had his whole truck jousting moment while they were having their talk on the ship.

[Mari]

This is not a writing issue--this is a Hook issue. He spent centuries loathing the Dark One. Now the love of his life has taken on that mantle Besides, he is hurt and angry by Emma's mind-games and obvious manipulation of him. It's going to take him a while before he can see Dark One Emma as Emma. Was the "I loved you" harsh? Maybe. But this came from a place of hurt, confusion, and anger.

Yes.

Plus, apart from Blue Shady, Hook is the only character on Team Hero who has first hand knowledge of what a Dark One was like before and after the curse. He knows first hand how very much it can change someone; preDark One Rumple was not an exemplary husband, but he was a devoted father and was not someone who'd likely have dreamed of killing Milah, let alone actually do it. PostDark One Rumple? Power was more important than Baelfire, and we all know what happened to Milah. For Hook it's not just a story about how much that curse changes you, he's seen it. It impacted people he loved, and he's got time, now, of seeing how the Dark One Rumple continued to chose the curse, over and over again, over Belle and Nealfire.

I think it leaves Hook in a really difficult position--it's kind of like being in love with an addict. You know the person you love is still in there, somewhere, but you're not sure on any given day if you are talking to the person, or the junkie. There are absolutely times in that situation where you have to walk a very hard, tough love "I will not accept you this way." line, and other times you need to chose to be supportive, forgiving, and encouraging, and it's not always possible to know which reaction is your best option.

If Emma was going to cure Rumple with the ship, why the date with Hook? Why not just bring Rumple to the ship, crumple a floorboard over him and call it a day? She wanted to spend time with Hook, and it looks like they were out long enough to finish their meal and have a heavy conversation, we know Charming had his whole truck jousting moment while they were having their talk on the ship.

Going with my addict analogy-she did want to spend time with Hook. She does love him. But, that doesn't mean she wouldn't use him, or take something important to him, if it meant she'd get what she wanted. When you think you need something, it's easier to convince yourself that your behavior is normal, and okay. when it's not, and it's easier to justify things that you'd normally consider truly hideous behavior.

So, why not go and spend the day with Hook, which she wanted to do anyway, and hopefully reconnect there, and hopefully you get what you want and Hook doesn't notice that you've got other motives to be there, too. The ship was likely a last resort--and she wouldn't've needed the whole thing.

I don't remember Hook ever taking any responsibility for what he did ti Bell, or actually genuinely apologize to her. You know Like Regina did!

Um . . .He did apologize to Belle, when the two of them were expected to do research together in season 3.

It didn't seem any less sincere than Regina's apology to Belle, and Belle and Hook seem to have managed to cordially work on projects together since. They're probably never going to be besties, but he also hasn't insulted, attacked, or controlled her since.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[Primetimer]

Once Upon A Time is heavy on innuendo but light on plot, as shenanigans in Camelot continue.

Read the story

[Amerilla]

Maybe Rumple didn't touch Bae's shawl until after he had lost him.

Unlikely. Bae was wearing it in Desperate Souls and he'd had it since Milah was around. No way he wouldn't have touched it in all that time. Edited October 12, 2015 by Amerilla

[babyPhat279]

Hey, I know - let's make all the chairs the same, so that we all treat each other equally. NOW, let's add one super-special chair.

 

That won't fuck with anyone's emotions.