Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[lion10]

Looking back at the movie now, it's probably best regarding fan reaction that Steve and Sharon didn't sleep together on the same day as Peggy's funeral as it would look like Steve was replacement goldfishing Peggy with her.  I liked the romance between them though I would've liked it if they had a few more scenes together to flesh out their relationship.  

[VCRTracking]

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The only way Tony's reaction makes sense is if I'm supposed to take it that during the entire time all this was going on, Steve never explained to him that Bucky's brain was basically Swiss cheese for the last 70 years and Hydra had been using him as brainless murder-bot. Otherwise I would expect that Tony, being a very smart guy that is involved in the world of super science, and whose science-bro turns in to a giant green rage monster would understand the situation.

Basically for Zemo's plot to work either Steve has to be a complete moron for not sharing that very important bit of information or Tony has to act like a bloody lunatic.

If the conflict had simply been that Iron Man believed that Bucky was too dangerous and needed to be brought in while Cap didn't believe that they could trust the UN with Bucky the conflict would at least make sense, instead it was "He killed my Mom. You knew? ANGER! RAGE! Kill!" Hinging the whole final conflict on Winter Soldier having killed Tony's parents basically ruined everything they built the first two acts of the movie around.

As people have posted Tony knew Bucky was under mind control but at that moment If Steve had just told him earlier that Bucky killed his parents Tony would have been mad but he would have still been rational enough to see him captured alive.  Seeing actual footage and hearing him choke the life out of his mom, of course and learning that Steve kept this from him, of course he's going to go batshit.

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I think Tony's actions just emphasize again why he feels the Avengers need restraint - because HE needs restraint.

Agreed.

[nksarmi]

11 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

As people have posted Tony knew Bucky was under mind control but at that moment If Steve had just told him earlier that Bucky killed his parents Tony would have been mad but he would have still been rational enough to see him captured alive.  Seeing actual footage and hearing him choke the life out of his mom, of course and learning that Steve kept this from him, of course he's going to go batshit.

Agreed.

You mean if Steve told him his parents had been murdered by Hydra right? Because that really is all Steve knew and to be honest - I almost forgot that he knew it. He certainly didn't know Bucky did it though I suppose it was a reasonable conclusion to form as they were being hunted by the Winter Soldier when they found that out.

Of course I do have one kind of stupid question - are Hydra and the Soviets connected? I mean, Bucky was experimented on by Hydra (Germans), captured by the Soviets (?), made into Winter Soldier by the Soviets (?), forced into missions by the Soviets (?) right? And the Russians hated the Germans so I can't believe they were working together....

So how did Hydra claim credit for Howard's death? Or perhaps Hydra just manipulated the situation to put the Soviets in a position to kill Tony's parents? I mean what was Howard doing driving along with super soldier serum in his trunk anyway?

Edited May 9, 2016 by nksarmi

[Lantern7]

I didn't know what was in the trunk. I was thinking Kree blood because I watch Agents of SHIELD. Really hoping that we don't get another batch of SSS.

While I'm thinking about Cap and his movies . . . is Red Skull dead dead? I keep thinking that his demise in The First Avenger had a figurative escape hatch where he could menace Steve again. Bastard is pretty hard to put down in comics. Is Hugo Weaving not interested in reprising the role?

[VCRTracking]

In the comics it was definitely the Soviets who brainwashed Bucky. I just like how HYDRA had infiltrated SHIELD and the US government, they also infiltrated the USSR and the KGB. Bucky was controlled by a HYDRA within the Soviet Union. The man in Cleveland who Zemo killed and tried to make tell him about 1991, was a former colonel in the Soviet army but also a HYDRA agent. They were using Russian facilities to keep the Winter Soldier.

Edited May 9, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ChelseaNH]

26 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I mean what was Howard doing driving along with super soldier serum in his trunk anyway?

It was blood drawn from Steve Rogers after Erskine was murdered, which the Soviets used to create additional super-solders.  Not sure why he was driving around with it in his trunk, though.

Edited May 9, 2016 by ChelseaNH

[JessePinkman]

My biggest issue with AoU was that it wrapped things up too neatly. They defeat Ultron and then we cut to quipping about Thor's hammer? Thanks for the fanservice but no, set up the next conflict please. That's the draw of the connected universe, the connectivity, one event leads to the next. You plant seeds for the next movie in the current movie.

So yeah, I'm a big fan of them leaving the Avengers a little lost. HUGE fan of them in Wakanda. I'm not sure I want to see them in the BP movie, entirely because why does he have to share his first solo outing with other people? 

The really incredible thing about this movie is that they were able to follow that airport scene with something that was maybe not AS awe-inducing but equally as exciting. That Cap/Iron Man fight was everything you could want in a superhero vs. superhero battle. Actual stakes, history, palpable tension and this feeling that someone could die. I don't know how they pulled it off. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by JessePinkman

[Which Tyler]

Tony's reaction - give him a couple of days, and yeah, I'm sure he'd accept that Bucky was brainwashed, and can't be held responsible for his actions (but still needs to be brought in and spend some serious time with a variety of shrinks - not allowed to wander around doing whatever he pleases). But Tony only had a couple of seconds - he's being emotional, not rational; and expecting rationality in that situation is ridiculously unfair. Even with that, he's still pulling his punches until he realises that he can't continue that way and come out on top. Even then he needed to know that Cap essentially knew (even if it was through deductive reasoning rather than having direct evidence) and had not only kept that knowledge from him, but still actively tried to keep Bucky from the authorities. Only then did he fight no-holds-barred.

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Tony did know about Bucky being brainwashed - he referred to him as the Manchurian Candidate - a movie that relates entirely to being forced into doing something against your will.

So Tony knew Bucky had no control over what he did - he was just angry enough to want to kill Bucky anyway. Tony is smart but he's still emotional. Yes a logical argument for him to make would be "even if it's not his fault - he's far too dangerous to be left in the wind." But in the end Bucky decided that himself and allowed himself to be put under.

I think we were supposed to see a contrast between Tony who knew Bucky was basically innocent but was raging on him anyway and Black Panther who stopped the man who killed his father from committing suicide (despite the fact that he had been bent on murder the whole movie) so that he could be brought to justice. I loved "the living aren't done with you yet" line SO much.

I think Tony's actions just emphasize again why he feels the Avengers need restraint - because HE needs restraint. But Cap believed in him and told him he'd be there anytime he needed him. And Tony refused to lift a finger to stop Cap from breaking his team out of the floating prison. Cap and Tony will be fine - hell, the probably already are. After all, Cap did stop Tony from committing cold blooded murder - something else he would have hated himself for when everything calmed down.

I mean, that the Russo brothers made Tony Stark a would be murderer is exactly the problem, it's a complete betrayal of the character. That Cap and Tony are relatively "fine" after Tony tried to murder his friend is the problem. You can't have a hero try to murder an innocent person and have them still remain a hero, and have the guy whose friend he murdered sending him friendly messages at the end.

They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther, then they didn't even deal with the gravity of it. They sold out the entire premise the movie was built around (different ideologies where no one is "wrong") in order to make Cap justified in beating Tony down at the end. Then they didn't even stick to it so they could set up the team getting back together in Infinity War. And I feel like I ate crazy flakes for breakfast because no one else seems to think it's a big deal that Tony Stark tried to f'n murder a guy because he was angry.

[JessePinkman]

16 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I mean, that the Russo brothers made Tony Stark a would be murderer is exactly the problem, it's a complete betrayal of the character. That Cap and Tony are relatively "fine" after Tony tried to murder his friend is the problem. You can't have a hero try to murder an innocent person and have them still remain a hero, and have the guy whose friend he murdered sending him friendly messages at the end.

I could totally see comic book Tony and movie Tony trying to kill the man that murdered his parents immediately after finding out.

That's what made it so great, it was an utterly human reaction. Tony just watched his parents get murdered. Like he said the man killed his mother, rational thought goes flying out the window when you see something like that.

I disagree that they sold out Tony for Cap (or Panther, in fact T'Challa spent several days hunting a man down in order to kill him), I left the movie on no one's side because they were both right and wrong in their own ways. 

[Jazzy24]

20 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I mean, that the Russo brothers made Tony Stark a would be murderer is exactly the problem, it's a complete betrayal of the character. That Cap and Tony are relatively "fine" after Tony tried to murder his friend is the problem. You can't have a hero try to murder an innocent person and have them still remain a hero, and have the guy whose friend he murdered sending him friendly messages at the end.

They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther, then they didn't even deal with the gravity of it. They sold out the entire premise the movie was built around (different ideologies where no one is "wrong") in order to make Cap justified in beating Tony down at the end. Then they didn't even stick to it so they could set up the team getting back together in Infinity War. And I feel like I ate crazy flakes for breakfast because no one else seems to think it's a big deal that Tony Stark tried to f'n murder a guy because he was angry.

But Tony is human he's not above getting angry or making mistakes. Yeah he's a hero but even heroes get angry in the heat of the moment. And yeah you can have a hero almost murder someone and still call that person a hero. Heroes are flawed and that's what Tony is a flawed hero. 

And I love that Steve and Tony are "fine" after everything that went down. They have a history going back all the way to Tony's father, they've fought side by side on numerous occasions yeah they fought and will probably do so again but they're still family. 

[Crs97]

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Especially when you see up close that he personally killed them.  In the beginning I thought he just caused the car to crash and that's how he died, but at the end they show that he brutally took them out after that.

And they were conscious enough to know what was happening to them.  His father's last words were asking Bucky to help his wife.  He heard his mother's last words.  Tony wouldn't have been a murderer - manslaughter at best and I think he'd still get off for temporary insanity.

I thought it crazy that Howard was driving around with the super spy stuff in the trunk, but I assumed the idea was to fly under the radar.  Apparently he needed a VW bug.

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I think Tony's actions just emphasize again why he feels the Avengers need restraint - because HE needs restraint.

I think the movie showed that they all need restraint.  Before he even knew Bucky was innocent, Steve helped him escape.  Maybe they didn't kill any of those police that were coming to get Bucky, but I am pretty sure there was some heavy collateral damage.  And Bucky's insistence to Steve that he wasn't going to kill anyone?  I can't imagine the guy whose motorcycle he stole was feeling pretty good, and blowing up the tunnel certainly didn't help those innocent drivers.  Black Panther was fighting to kill before he discovered he had the wrong guy.

Why would Clint come out and help Steve?  He announced his retirement to avoid having to deal with the Accords.  What was his motivation?  Or is he like Tony and secretly doesn't want to stop?

Anyway, as many have already said, it is completely unrealistic to think the public is angry that the Avengers can't stop unstoppable evil without some innocent bystanders getting hurt.  Black Panther's dad was completely wrong on that one:  You can still get justice, even though some innocent lives will be lost.

Onto a completely unpopular opinion - I cannot stand Wanda.  She can't get off my screen fast enough, and I hope to find out she dies in a sequel.  She can be the Avenger whose death inspires them all to come back together.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Crs97

[DkNNy79]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I thought it crazy that Howard was driving around with the super spy stuff in the trunk, but I assumed the idea was to fly under the radar.  Apparently he needed a VW bug.

They were on their way to the airport right?  I guess he didn't trust a courier to ship that to the final destination, it could've gotten intercepted.   Really who can you trust with such important items. 

Not a fan of Wanda either.

[Traveller519]

I would have bought Steve's relationship with Sharon a bit more if she'd at least had some passing purpose in Age of Ultron to keep her character at the fore front. The way it was revealed here, Steve doesn't see her from the events of Winter Soldier to Peggy's funeral, where he finds out she's related to the last person he's ever carried a candle for. Then they kiss? Felt more weird than long overdue to me.

All in all I did really like it. Like most marvel movies, it doesn't need to be seen in 3D and I find that actually detracts from it. But in the theaters with reserved seating, it's always in 3D. I'll likely go see it in a couple weeks in 2D to let everything settle, and pick up on all the little things, like trying to watch both May and Tony when Peter's talking with them.

This is safely in my Tier 1 MCU movies with Guardians, Iron Man, Winter Solider, and The Avengers. The little nits I have would have made it really drag.

[ChelseaNH]

12 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Before he even knew Bucky was innocent, Steve helped him escape.

The police had orders to shoot to kill.  (So much for due process.)  Steve wanted to arrest Bucky himself.

15 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Why would Clint come out and help Steve?

He has been something of a mentor to Wanda, so I can see that tipping his decision.

[benteen]

I'm still surprised that Clint and Scott got involved in this considering their family situations.

Although they interacted only briefly, I liked what we saw from T'Challa and his father.

[Shannon L.]

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I think Emily Van Camp is fine as Sharon Carter and I'm fine with her portrayal of the character.  I thought she and Chris Evans sparked during the few scenes they had in Winter Solider (especially the hallway scene).  Honestly, I see more romantic spark between Sharon Carter and Cap then Black Widow and Cap, so I’m fine with how it all played out.

I, for one, buy the fact that Steve and Sharon would try to steal a kiss; wildly inappropriate timing and all – and (for me) it was worth it just to see the high school boy reactions of Bucky and Falcon.

I forgot to mention that I liked the kiss, too, and the reactions from Bucky and Falcon.  That got a great reaction from our audience. 

I also forgot to mention how much I loved the chase scene with Bucky and the Black Panther.  My husband didn't like the CGI in it, but I was too focused on the Black Panther to really notice. 

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The really incredible thing about this movie is that they were able to follow that airport scene with something that was maybe not AS awe-inducing but equally as exciting. That Cap/Iron Man fight was everything you could want in a superhero vs. superhero battle. Actual stakes, history, palpable tension and this feeling that someone could die. I don't know how they pulled it off. 

For the same reason we can passionately discuss the movies:  They actors and characters are like family now.  We've been watching them, off and on, for how many years now? 8? Add great writing and directing to it and it's bound to work. BvS had one prior movie (Man of Steel) and a new Batman---add that to the lack of good direction, editing and writing (from what I've been told--I didn't bother seeing it) and it would have been a miracle to pull it off as well as the Marvel movie cast/crew. 

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They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther

I agree with what the others have said in response to your whole post, but I have to say that I don't agree with this one point specifically.  I have yet to hear anyone say that they walked out 100% on someone's side. Most responses have been that they either understood both sides and couldn't really choose one or, while they remained in one camp or the other, they still understood the motivations of the others.

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Why would Clint come out and help Steve?

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He has been something of a mentor to Wanda, so I can see that tipping his decision.

 

He probably felt that he owed her, too, after what happened to her brother.

After seeing the Doctor Strange preview and seeing the nature of the Black Panther, I'm a bit worried that the next phase of movies may be too serious.  My husband thinks I'm worried for nothing--that there will always be some sort of humor from one character or another in a Marvel movie.  I hope he's right, because I'm impressed with how they've managed so far to balance humor and drama.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Shannon L.

[VCRTracking]

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He probably felt that he owed her, too, after what happened to her brother.

Clint says to Cap in the parking garage about Wanda, "I owed her a debt."

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They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther, then they didn't even deal with the gravity of it. They sold out the entire premise the movie was built around (different ideologies where no one is "wrong") in order to make Cap justified in beating Tony down at the end. Then they didn't even stick to it so they could set up the team getting back together in Infinity War. And I feel like I ate crazy flakes for breakfast because no one else seems to think it's a big deal that Tony Stark tried to f'n murder a guy because he was angry.

Of course it's a big deal, but we get where he's coming from and understood why he was acting irrationally. We saw earlier when Rhodey gets knocked out of the sky. Falcon drops down and says he's sorry and Tony just hits him with a repulsor blast. He acts out of impulse.Tony as mad as he was, back at the compound after the fight isn't now obsessed with using all his resources in finding Bucky to try to kill him again. He realized he was in a crazed state and doesn't feel good about what he's done. Cap also didn't need to be justified in beating him. As much as Tony and disagreed about the Accords they were never going to fight in the brutal way they ending up doing because of it. Tony only fought as hard as he did in the end because he wanted revenge on the man who killed his parents and Steve would only fight as hard as he did to protect his best friend.

[angora]

Man, even though I was sure that the Starks death reveal was coming, it was just brutal to see.  The part that got to me the most was when Howard looked up and said, "Sergeant Barnes?"  We're familiar with the Cap-Howard connection, of course, but I'd completely forgotten that, as a Howling Commando, Bucky would have known him, too.

[Perfect Xero]

The whole thing was such blatant and obvious manipulation that NO character should have fallen for it, much less the guy who is besties with Bruce Banner.

26 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Clint says to Cap in the parking garage about Wanda, "I owed her a debt."

Of course it's a big deal, but we get where he's coming from and understood why he was acting irrationally. We saw earlier when Rhodey gets knocked out of the sky. Falcon drops down and says he's sorry and Tony just hits him with a repulsor blast. He acts out of impulse.Tony as mad as he was, back at the compound after the fight isn't now obsessed with using all his resources in finding Bucky to try to kill him again. He realized he was in a crazed state and doesn't feel good about what he's done. Cap also didn't need to be justified in beating him. As much as Tony and disagreed about the Accords they were never going to fight in the brutal way they ending up doing because of it. Tony only fought as hard as he did in the end because he wanted revenge on the man who killed his parents and Steve would only fight as hard as he did to protect his best friend.

But Bucky didn't kill Tony's parents, Hydra did. The only way Tony's reaction makes a damn bit of sense is if Tony didn't understand that Bucky was only acting against his parents because he was brainwashed by Hydra, but obviously he did. So the Russos just had Tony acting like a complete psychotic for the sake of the plot so they'd have an excuse for Steve to beat him down at the end of the movie.

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I mean, that the Russo brothers made Tony Stark a would be murderer is exactly the problem, it's a complete betrayal of the character. That Cap and Tony are relatively "fine" after Tony tried to murder his friend is the problem. You can't have a hero try to murder an innocent person and have them still remain a hero, and have the guy whose friend he murdered sending him friendly messages at the end.

They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther, then they didn't even deal with the gravity of it. They sold out the entire premise the movie was built around (different ideologies where no one is "wrong") in order to make Cap justified in beating Tony down at the end. Then they didn't even stick to it so they could set up the team getting back together in Infinity War. And I feel like I ate crazy flakes for breakfast because no one else seems to think it's a big deal that Tony Stark tried to f'n murder a guy because he was angry.

I completely disagree. Black Panther was shown as a would be murderer from the moment his dad died. Yet who helped Steve in the end put Bucky into cold storage?

Tony wasn't trying to murder a guy he was angry at - he was trying to murder the guy who physically killed his mom and dad. To expect Tony to accept that rational truth that Bucky wasn't responsible in that moment would be asking a lot of Tony. He might be smart, but he's human. That's why it was important for Cap to do everything he could to stop him. Tony would eventually come to the rational conclusion that Bucky wasn't responsible and when that moment came - Tony would hate himself.

It's not like Steve was actually trying to kill Tony - he was just trying to stop Tony before he did something he would regret.

I mean, we should never lose sight of the fact that Steve and Bucky were beating on Tony's ARMOR. I know Tony was in that armor, but I don't care how super soldiered you are - hitting metal with your fist would have to hurt.

And Tony needing Steve to save him from his anger in that moment doesn't make him NOT a hero - it just means he needs help. It's not like Tony calmed down and decided to keep hunting Bucky. In this case, Steve was doing everything he could to protect both his friends and Tony will come to realize that (he probably already did).

[Spartan Girl]

14 minutes ago, angora said:

Man, even though I was sure that the Starks death reveal was coming, it was just brutal to see.  The part that got to me the most was when Howard looked up and said, "Sergeant Barnes?"  We're familiar with the Cap-Howard connection, of course, but I'd completely forgotten that, as a Howling Commando, Bucky would have known him, too.

Yeah, that part was awful. Especially because I really loved Howard on the Agent Carter.

 

4 hours ago, lion10 said:

Looking back at the movie now, it's probably best regarding fan reaction that Steve and Sharon didn't sleep together on the same day as Peggy's funeral as it would look like Steve was replacement goldfishing Peggy with her.  I liked the romance between them though I would've liked it if they had a few more scenes together to flesh out their relationship.  

Me too. But I really resent the comments from people claiming that Steve was moving too fast because Peggy just died. I don't suppose they would have said the same if it had been Bucky instead of Sharon...*rolls eyes*

Peggy stated in WS that her only regret was that Steve never got to live his life. Translation: SHE WANTED HIM TO BE HAPPY. She'd be perfectly okay with him moving on with his life, though it would be weird for her to see him with her grandniece...

[Sakura12]

Tony just watched his parents get murdered with their murderer standing right in front of him. Tony acted irrationally from blind rage. I found that understandable and realistic. He wasn't thinking logically anymore. His brain wasn't going to register that Bucky was brainwashed, his brain only registered his parents dying.  All of us are removed from that whole situation so it's easy for us to say we wouldn't do that. 

I find the Sharon Carter thing weird because there are plenty of women that are like Peggy without being related to her. I know it's "Because comics". They also didn't really build their relationship. They had some mildly flirty scenes in WS while she was spying on him. Then in this movie they just kiss. I think Wanda and Vision had more build up. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Sakura12

[Perfect Xero]

Tony doesn't live in the real world. He should understand things like mind manipulation and control, hell, he just fell victim to it himself in Age of Ultron as did Banner. Thinking that a character in his situation with his history wouldn't see right through Zemo's obvious manipulation instead of going into RAGEKILL mode is ridiculously poor writing, IMO.

Should he have felt sick and disgusted at what he saw? Of course. Pissed as hell at Steve for not telling him about his parents? Yeah. Even going back around to thinking that Bucky is too dangerous and needs to be brought in? Sure. Going full on psycho so Steve would have an excuse to beat on him was just way too damn much though.

[Traveller519]

Tony's relationship with his father has always been somewhat complex, but he appeared to have full love for his Mother that he hasn't really dealth with. His words are "He killed my Mom." I'm sure had it just been Howard that The Winter Soldier killed, Tony would have begrudgingly held back. But seeing his mother, innocent and loving in his eyes, killed for no reason beyond being a passenger in the car Howard was in sent him over the tipping point.

[dkb]

Did they ever explain why War Machine and Vision weren't in Lagos with the rest of the new team? Was it just a training mission for Wanda? Thinking back on it I realized they were separated in the beginning and we only see the dynamics between Team Cap plus Black Widow, out in the field. 

[Wynterwolf]

Yeah, Tony might have even seen it as a bit of poetic justice for Howard to be felled by one of his own creations (as Tony almost was), but not his mother.  Also, with Pepper gone and JARVIS transformed, Tony was basically without any kind of meaningful emotional support.  

[frenchtoast]

4 minutes ago, dkb said:

Did they ever explain why War Machine and Vision weren't in Lagos with the rest of the new team? Was it just a training mission for Wanda? Thinking back on it I realized they were separated in the beginning and we only see the dynamics between Team Cap plus Black Widow, out in the field. 

I think Vision would stand out too much. Rhodey could be there, and blend in, but not as War Machine. Those two would be super conspicuous in a crowd and they seemed to be trying blending in and not draw attention to themselves. They didn't even know what the target was, so things unraveled fast. I know Cap and was hiding, but it would be difficult to do that for all three. Also, it seemed, initially to be reconnaissance and less go and take stuff. At least, that's how I handwave it.

[VCRTracking]

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Tony doesn't live in the real world. He should understand things like mind manipulation and control, hell, he just fell victim to it himself in Age of Ultron as did Banner. Thinking that a character in his situation with his history wouldn't see right through Zemo's obvious manipulation instead of going into RAGEKILL mode is ridiculously poor writing, IMO.

Should he have felt sick and disgusted at what he saw? Of course. Pissed as hell at Steve for not telling him about his parents? Yeah. Even going back around to thinking that Bucky is too dangerous and needs to be brought in? Sure. Going full on psycho so Steve would have an excuse to beat on him was just way too damn much though.

Of course he knows about mind control. Doesn't matter. That primal rage he had over his parents death which he never properly dealt with just came out and people watching the movie knew it. Once you realize what the tape was of and who had been in that car most of the audience was thinking  "Ohhhhhhh shit." We knew Tony was not going to react well at all.  Not just the tape but the look of obvious guilt on Bucky's face who doesn't deny it or Steve saying he knew about it is what triggers it.  Any human being with feelings understood why he does what he does next.He wasn't going to be like "I know you were brainwashed while under mind control when you were punching my father to death and choking the life out of my mom. No problem. " Part of it was his own guilt because of how he didn't get to say he loved them before they died and he said he never processed

Edited May 9, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Shannon L.]

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Not just the tape but the look of obvious guilt on Bucky's face who doesn't deny it

I had to give him a lot of credit for that.  I expected to hear something like "I remember, but I wasn't in control at the time...".  Took a lot of guts to admit it and accept whatever might happen. 

[revbfc]

I really liked it up until the end.  I know it wasn't a surprise to me that Bucky killed Howard.  It certainly should have crossed Tony's mind, and his reaction didn't ring true to me.  I can see him being mad, but not to that extent.

[Raja]

51 minutes ago, revbfc said:

I really liked it up until the end.  I know it wasn't a surprise to me that Bucky killed Howard.  It certainly should have crossed Tony's mind, and his reaction didn't ring true to me.  I can see him being mad, but not to that extent.

It wasn't just finding out for sure am officially called accident was an assination. He just watched his defenseless  mother being murdered 

[MisterGlass]

39 minutes ago, revbfc said:

It certainly should have crossed Tony's mind, and his reaction didn't ring true to me.  I can see him being mad, but not to that extent.

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I mean, that the Russo brothers made Tony Stark a would be murderer is exactly the problem, it's a complete betrayal of the character. That Cap and Tony are relatively "fine" after Tony tried to murder his friend is the problem.

Until that video started, Tony thought his parents died in a car crash.  He could sort of deal with that.  It was one of many horrors in the back of his mind.  Since Iron Man, Tony has been dealing with betrayal, loss, post traumatic stress disorder, and multi-layered guilt.  He's been worn down by trying to atone for real and imagined sins.  His best friend was just paralyzed.  Half of the people he cared about in the world were in prison, and he helped put them there.  He went after Cap to help, still trying to do the right thing.  He was blind-sided by the murder, by his father being beaten to death, and his mother being strangled.  This was the release of a decade's worth of pain.

Steve knows Tony, he knows loss, and he knows suffering.  It does not surprise me that he would forgive Tony.  The only reason he is Captain America is because he's a selfless man.

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Anyway, as many have already said, it is completely unrealistic to think the public is angry that the Avengers can't stop unstoppable evil without some innocent bystanders getting hurt.

I find it believable.  People want their heroes to be perfect.  There is no middle ground in mob opinion.  We either ignore the uncomfortable truths or get carried away by them.  And in the case of Sakovia, it's awfully hard not to lay that one on the Avengers.

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

It was blood drawn from Steve Rogers after Erskine was murdered, which the Soviets used to create additional super-solders.  Not sure why he was driving around with it in his trunk, though.

I thought it was a blue fluid in the IVs.  In Agent Carter, Peggy destroyed Howard's last sample of Steve's blood.  I took this to mean that Howard had continued working on the super soldier formula anyway, and finally came up with a stable version.

[dkb]

This is is a thing now, and it made me laugh so hard!!! Sometimes I really love the internet 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/keelyflaherty/give-bucky-the-plums?utm_term=.ava6bg2Gy#.nldrRW9N5

[Morrigan2575]

^^^That was funny!

[Traveller519]

50 minutes ago, coast22 said:

Overall, I had an issue with most of the plot, on multiple levels, and I did not really care for this movie at all.  It's on the bottom of my MCU list.  I respect what it accomplished with cast size, but that's about it. I think making it a sequel of a movie that thumbed its nose at everything but Avengers 1 was a horrible mistake, and it showed in the characterizations across the board.  I mean: Steve's been looking for his long lost best friend, a decorated war hero whose face is plastered in the Smithsonian, for two years; everyone who knows him should know that and have some idea of what Bucky means to him; but when the shit hits the fan, everyone but Sam and Sharon steps back and says "okay, Steve, he's shoot to kill; pop a squat and let it happen."  The characters I know wouldn't have played it like that, let alone Natasha, and they certainly would not have expected him to stand by and let his friend die.  But I digress. Looking onward.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Title wise, the Civil War is a sequel to Winter Soldier. I'm not sure how Winter Soldier thumbed its nose at the rest of the MCU except Avengers 1. The whole premise is based on Hydra growing within SHIELD following Operation Paperclip, which is set up through the events of The First Avenger. Project Insight is the culmination of Fury's distrust of Alien Threat started by Thor 1 and carried through The Avengers and Thor 2. And Pierce references that Iron Man is the most popular of all the Avengers (he would like him to swing by his nephew's birthday party) which given Tony's flare for showmanship started from his Press Conference, and the events of Iron Man 2 make sense.

At the end of the Winter Soldier, Cap also establishes that he's going to look for Bucky in a very off the Grid sense after Natasha gets him the files. He enlists Sam to help with this, but knows not to cast the net any larger. He believes he's the only one that can engage with Bucky peacefully without causing a bigger issue. That's shown to be the case in Civil War. Sam's even shown to be keeping the search on the DL in Age of Ultron at the party. I think it's safe to assume that no one, outside of Sam and Natasha, who is afflicted by her own demons these days, understands the Bucky/Cap relationship and its complexities.

Overall, I felt the movie built on what we have seen from the MCU thus far. Steve and Tony have always had this very tenuous relationship. Tony exhibits signs of resentment for the love that his father had for Steve. Steve knows he can't trust Tony. But they've supported each other and had each other's backs when it mattered most.

[VCRTracking]

Also big props to Frank Grillo. He did a great job in his brief appearance as Brock Rumlow/Crossbones. The utter hate and contempt the character has for Cap in the comics was translated perfectly on to the screen just by the sound of his voice. Also loved his first move against Cap was to throw a magnet bomb on his shield so that he would have to get rid of it and couldn't use it against him.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Of course he knows about mind control. Doesn't matter. That primal rage he had over his parents death which he never properly dealt with just came out and people watching the movie knew it. Once you realize what the tape was of and who had been in that car most of the audience was thinking  "Ohhhhhhh shit." We knew Tony was not going to react well at all.  Not just the tape but the look of obvious guilt on Bucky's face who doesn't deny it or Steve saying he knew about it is what triggers it.  Any human being with feelings understood why he does what he does next.He wasn't going to be like "I know you were brainwashed while under mind control when you were punching my father to death and choking the life out of my mom. No problem. " Part of it was his own guilt because of how he didn't get to say he loved them before they died and he said he never processed

I simply don't buy "primal rage" as an excuse or reason or explanation, he's not the Hulk* and has been pointed out, it wasn't just one surge of anger/attack, he was continually chasing down someone who was trying to flee and fighting a "friend" in a relentless attempt to murder Bucky. I would not have believed for one second that the Tony Stark character as has been presented in the MCU up to this point would act like that, not when he clearly knows that Bucky was being brain washed/mind controlled by Hydra at the time, I don't care if he just saw his Mom killed on video or not, I simply don't buy it as a sustained reaction he would have. *Hell, the Hulk is the one MCU character who I would have bought that reaction from, and that's because, you know, it's an established part of his character from previous films and not cheap bullshit being pulled out to make their final act fight scene take place with Cap being the morally justified one.

Tony might have surged at Bucky in anger right after seeing the video, Steve would have stepped between them and reminded him that Bucky was being controlled by Hydra, then Tony would have calmed down a bit and that would have been it, then they would have captured Zemo's plot device ass and thrown him in jail before going back to dealing with the Accords. That's how I would have said the characters that I've been watching for 8 previous movies would have acted in this situation if you'd presented it to me before this movie. Tony Stark has a lot of flaws, being someone who would rage so hard that he'd murder an innocent man while one of his friends tried to stop him isn't one of them. Or it wasn't, before this kick to the balls happened.

[VCRTracking]

Quote

I simply don't buy "primal rage" as an excuse or reason or explanation, he's not the Hulk* and has been pointed out, it wasn't just one surge of anger/attack, he was continually chasing down someone who was trying to flee and fighting a "friend" in a relentless attempt to murder Bucky. I would not have believed for one second that the Tony Stark character as has been presented in the MCU up to this point would act like that, not when he clearly knows that Bucky was being brain washed/mind controlled by Hydra at the time, I don't care if he just saw his Mom killed on video or not, I simply don't buy it as a sustained reaction he would have. *Hell, the Hulk is the one MCU character who I would have bought that reaction from, and that's because, you know, it's an established part of his character from previous films and not cheap bullshit being pulled out to make their final act fight scene take place with Cap being the morally justified one.

 Most people would probably calm down but most people don't have an arsenal of advance weapons at their immediately disposal as he had. If Banner was still an ordinary man his anger wouldn't be a threat but it manifests itself as an unstoppable monster. So he has to be in more control of his emotions than other people. Tony isn't in the suit all the time and he doesn't get that enraged. The tape made him angrier than he ever has before. Steve fighting him just made him angrier. He was both terrifying but still sympathetic in that moment. Maybe there should have been more about Tony's mom in the previous films and how much he loved her so it would be understandable because we know his relationship with his dad wasn't the best, however I don't think it was necessary.

Quote

Tony might have surged at Bucky in anger right after seeing the video, Steve would have stepped between them and reminded him that Bucky was being controlled by Hydra, then Tony would have calmed down a bit and that would have been it, then they would have captured Zemo's plot device ass and thrown him in jail before going back to dealing with the Accords.

I wish I could live in the world you described where that would be the response. There would be less murders and violence committed by ordinary people. Unfortunately we don't.  Rational people can snap.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Bruinsfan]

It's totally in character for Tony Stark to keep pushing and pushing any time he encounters opposition from another person who doesn't share his viewpoint. For evidence, see every full-length appearance he's made in a MCU movie to date. Usually it's in the form of verbal needling, or pursuing his impulsively chosen course of action while defying or avoiding the authorities, his friends and teammates, what have you. In this instance it was in the form of fairly understandable grief-driven murderous rage, which being rooted in a much more powerful emotion than his usual smug self-satisfaction took a lot more to snap him out of.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[Perfect Xero]

37 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

 Most people would probably calm down but most people don't have an arsenal of advance weapons at their immediately disposal as he had. If Banner was still an ordinary man his anger wouldn't be a threat but it manifests itself as an unstoppable monster. So he has to be in more control of his emotions than other people. Tony isn't in the suit all the time and he doesn't get that enraged. The tape made him angrier than he ever has before. Steve fighting him just made him angrier. He was both terrifying but still sympathetic in that moment. Maybe there should have been more about Tony's mom in the previous films and how much he loved her so it would be understandable because we know his relationship with his dad wasn't the best, however I don't think it was necessary.

I wish I could live in the world you described where that would be the response. There would be less murders and violence committed by ordinary people. Unfortunately we don't.  Rational people can snap.

And my contention is that the tape should not have made him that angry when he clearly knows that Bucky was being mind controlled, it was an absurd reaction given the world he lives in. If Bucky had been acting of his own free will at the time but had since changed his ways then Tony's reaction would have made sense, but Bucky wasn't and Tony knew that.

They could have written that scene to protect Tony's character by not having him be aware of the mind control aspect, but they didn't. Instead they decided to ruin the character by making him a murderer.

[Schweedie]

9 hours ago, angora said:

Man, even though I was sure that the Starks death reveal was coming, it was just brutal to see.  The part that got to me the most was when Howard looked up and said, "Sergeant Barnes?"  We're familiar with the Cap-Howard connection, of course, but I'd completely forgotten that, as a Howling Commando, Bucky would have known him, too.

Yeah, that actually got to me, too. I'd forgotten that Howard would've known Bucky as well. Probably not as closely as Steve, because I can't recall Tony ever mentioning his dad talking about Bucky, but still.

10 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

After seeing the Doctor Strange preview and seeing the nature of the Black Panther, I'm a bit worried that the next phase of movies may be too serious.  My husband thinks I'm worried for nothing--that there will always be some sort of humor from one character or another in a Marvel movie.  I hope he's right, because I'm impressed with how they've managed so far to balance humor and drama.

Interestingly, I'm the opposite. I mean, I have no interest in Doctor Strange so won't mind how that goes, but I wouldn't mind at all if Black Panther turns out more serious. That was exacly what I loved about the Winter Soldier - it was a political thriller that also happened to be a superhero movie, with a couple of moments of levity thrown in. To me that was perfect, and Civil War was too jarring in its contrast between humour and drama - and too much humour for me.

[VCRTracking]

Quote

And my contention is that the tape should not have made him that angry when he clearly knows that Bucky was being mind controlled, it was an absurd reaction given the world he lives in. If Bucky had been acting of his own free will at the time but had since changed his ways then Tony's reaction would have made sense, but Bucky wasn't and Tony knew that.

They could have written that scene to protect Tony's character by not having him be aware of the mind control aspect, but they didn't. Instead they decided to ruin the character by making him a murderer.

 

His character was not ruined unless you think any person would not act the way he did when most people would've. It's just not the world he lived in with mind control. In our world people die because of accidents caused by other people. The people responsible don't mean to kill them and feel remorse but the immediate anger of the dead person's loved ones towards them is still understandable. Tony responded out of grief and pain and people who are in a lot of pain don't think or reason clearly. People who can't understand this have an unrealistic expectation of how human beings compartmentalize their emotions under those circumstances.

Is Tony the villain in this movie? Absolutely not. It was Zemo, who planned for a year and killed dozens of innocent people to get revenge on the people he was actually mad at.. Tony I felt actually got off easy at the end of Age of Ultron.

Cap is not at all without fault at during this. He should had told Tony his suspicions long ago. He also should have turned Bucky in and this could have been avoided. There was no reason to bring him along to Siberia after Bucky told him. In fact it would have been dangerous since Zemo knew the control words to brainwash him again.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[pancake bacon]

Natasha was right there too when Steve found out that Hydra/Bucky killed his parents in The Winter Soldier. Why isn't Tony Stark mad at her as well?

Edited May 10, 2016 by pancake bacon
Forgot Tony's name. Potential pronoun confusion.

[TyranAmiros]

10 hours ago, dkb said:

Did they ever explain why War Machine and Vision weren't in Lagos with the rest of the new team? Was it just a training mission for Wanda? Thinking back on it I realized they were separated in the beginning and we only see the dynamics between Team Cap plus Black Widow, out in the field. 

One of the things I think they were trying to set up was a contrast between Team Cap and Iron Man's loose collection of superheroes.  The decisions by Cap's teammates--particularly Falcon's loyalty and later Black Widow's change of heart only makes sense in light of their working together.  Cap's leadership is in large part driven by personal connection--even though Bucky and Sam can't stand each other, they work together for Cap.  He includes Scarlet Witch rather than putting her into house arrest. 

It really goes to the heart of one of the divides between Cap and Stark.  While Stark is an inventor who superheroes on the side, Cap is a career soldier.  He doesn't have the luxury Stark does of having a fallback.  What he and his team do I assume pays his rent (unless he somehow has an investment account from 1944 that's still good). I mean, now he's being bankrolled by a small African nation, presumably, but I think this was an important dimension as to why Cap couldn't support the Accords.

[Grace19]

That was so awesome. I love everything, well almost everything.

I went in team cap and still came out team cap. I agree with him on the accords, in the MCU they’ve not given us any reason to trust the government, so I get why Steve distrust them, especially when they have someone like Ross on their side who has done a lot worse.

I also get why Tony sided with the accords. He is consumed with guilt and with Pepper gone, he feels this is his shot at redemption. The thing I love most about this movie is that it gave everyone a valid reason for everything they did even though I might not agree with some of their choices, i still get why they did what they did.
Natasha is great in this, her fight scene were the best since... ever. I loved that she helped Steve and Bucky. Scarlet have chemistry with all the cast. Her scenes with Steve, Tony and T’challa were good.

T’challa; I love him! He was so great, noble and bad ass. I knew I was going to love him, sorry cap and Bucky, T’challa just became my favourite MCU character. I am still bitter they pushed back his movie, I want Black Panther now.

I can’t believe marvel got me excited for another Spiderman movie, I’m in. I love Tom Holland as peter parker and Spiderman and he has chemistry with Tony. I will be pissed if they paired Tony with Aunt May, I hope that’s not why they broke pepperony up.

Antman, Clint and war machine were great too. Poor Rhodey I hope he gets better.

I was indifferent to Wanda and Vision in Avengers 2, but I fell in love with them here. I love their scenes together and I'm curious to see how their relationship will turnout. I love that Steve and Clint are like big brothers to Wanda.

I still love Sam and he is more of a bad-ass here. I love his rapport with Bucky. I would watch a movie with Steve, Sam and Bucky on a road trip, Natasha and T’challa could come too, lol

This movie is 5/5 for me, it wasn't perfect, but it still deserves that score for that last fight scene between Tony/Steve/Bucky. No superhero movie has ever had an emotional impact on me as that scene had. I felt like I was watching my friends beat each other up. I get why Tony reacted in that way, its not an easy thing to watch someone kill your parents, but at the same time, Bucky did not ask for any of it, he is the real victim in all of this. What Steve did was wrong, but he is just as flawed as any human trying to protect himself, his best friend and teammate and I would probably do the same. No one won, everybody loses. I understand why Bucky choose to go back into the freezer. I hope he will be in Black Panther who knows, T’challa might build him a Vibranium arm.


 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Grace19

[OakGoblinFly]

15 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Why would Clint come out and help Steve?  He announced his retirement to avoid having to deal with the Accords.  What was his motivation?  Or is he like Tony and secretly doesn't want to stop?

I think Clint's main reason was to help spring Wanda who was under house arrest.

[Grace19]

Now on to things I didn't like.

They didn't flesh out Steve more, they should have added a flash back scene about Peggy and Bucky, it would have helped us understand why he was holding on to that world more. How much their loss motivated him.

Which brings me to the other problem, the kiss, not just the kiss, but the way Steve and Sharon's relationship played out was wrong on so many levels. I don't ship staron, but I'm not going to use chemistry against the pairing, because, with barely five minutes of screen time, I can't fault them for having no chemistry.

I know a lot of people were bothered about the Peggy/Sharon thing. It didn't bother me that much, because I felt that if done right, it could be glossed over. I thought that the writers would have them as already friends when the movie started, yes we would have been cheated out of seeing how they started, but at-least we would have gotten a sense that they are already comfortable with each other before anything started. But I was surprised that in the two years since winter soldier and Natasha told him to go after her, they were not in contact, not friends, Steve was still bitter about her spying on him and most importantly had no idea she was related to Peggy. Then all of a sudden, once he realized she was related to Peggy, all was forgiven and they started making eyes at each other the same day. I'm sorry that really comes across as Steve is falling for the next best thing to Peggy carter.

But what I hated was that Peggy's send off from MCU, was not about her and Steve, but about Sharon and Steve. Peggy became a plot device to bring Steve and Sharon close together, come-on writers that is so wrong. If they really wanted people to give staron a chance, they should have never brought Peggy back. Some might have forgotten about her and accepted Sharon, but they made a big show of her death, showed Steve carrying her casket heartbroken. We were all reminded of how much she meant to Steve, then right there in her funeral Sharon and Steve started making eyes at each other and Peggy became nothing more than a plot device. I don't know how they thought this was a good idea, or maybe they just didn't care and just wanted people to know that Steve is no longer a virgin and just to follow the comics. What really saved the kiss scene was Sam and Bucky's reaction, I started laughing. I suspect that they put that comic relief there deliberately so that we wouldn't over think the scene which is a pretty smart thing to do.
Well, what's done is done. MCU has never been good with romance, Tony/Pepper was their best and they went and ruined it.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Grace19

[Shannon L.]

Quote

That was exacly what I loved about the Winter Soldier - it was a political thriller that also happened to be a superhero movie, with a couple of moments of levity thrown in.

I should clarify:  Winter Soldier is my favorite movie of the MCU series and what I want from Dr. Strange and Black Panther is that kind of drama with some levity mixed in.  I personally enjoy the humor that's in the other movies, but even in WS, as serious as it was, Steve himself had moments of humor as well.  I fear that the other two might have too much drama.  I hope Marvel continues with a good balance of both, like they have been able to do in the others (and if it's more like WS than The Avengers, than I'm good with that).

Quote

Natasha was right there too when Steve found out that Hydra/Bucky killed his parents in The Winter Soldier. Why isn't Tony Stark mad at her as well?

I think by the time Tony found out about Natasha and saw her again, he'd had time to process it.  When Tony saw the tape, he was not only standing there in front of the man who did it, but also the man who knew and didn't tell him.  He was acting on impulse and didn't (couldn't) take the time to think it through.

Quote

His character was not ruined unless you think any person would not act the way he did when most people would've.

Agreed.  I haven't seen anyone else on this thread (except one other poster who thinks that Tony is always the scapegoat) who thinks that Tony's reaction was ridiculous or that his character was ruined.  We all sympathize with him. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Shannon L.

[frenchtoast]

I completely understand Tony going off the rails and going after Bucky and to a lesser extent Steve at the end. Not only did have to watch that horrible video, he'd just had essentially whole week of shitty days. His oldest friend was paralyzed. He'd been trying to get this group of people that he clearly cares about to agree to something and it all ended so horribly. That airport fight had spiraled out of control and the scars are going to be there for a while. And while the wound is still fresh, he finds out about his mom and dad. He had even tried to help Bucky and Steve just before and boom--it comes out. It wasn't just his parents, it was everything. And he lost it. And I completely understand that he would want to utterly destroy Bucky for it. I didn't see it as character assassination. I see it as understanding there is only so much a human being can take before they just Hulk out and lose it. It was heartwrenching, it was so hard to watch. But it felt real and earned throughout the movie. But it was incredibly hard to watch.

And then to see Black Panther talk to Zemo? That realization that he almost, in his rage and pain, killed someone who had not committed the crime. That was equally heartbreaking.

But movies, novels, music--we all see it differently and that's good. It's a conversation, a dialogue. That's what makes life interesting. If anything, this movie was about is that right or wrong is not always clear cut. And we all need space to talk and understand that we may not always agree, and that's ok. It doesn't make us bad people, it makes us people talking.