S07.E19: New Beginnings, My Ass

[ButterQueen]

Carole can refer to her in-laws as family if she wants -- I do.

[tulip555]

Carole can refer to her in-laws as family if she wants -- I do.

So do I

[Rahul]

For one and all who jumped me about being technical about family.  Cousin-in-laws are not recognized either anthropologically or socially.  Family can be defined many ways and I support the idea that she John and Carolyn Bisset were the closest of friends. 

 

I feel like this is missing a paper citation, at least for the anthropological claim. As for the social claim, are not the posters here who consider their spouse's family as their own empirical evidence to the contrary?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Rahul

[Mondrianyone]

Cousin-in-laws are not recognized either anthropologically or socially.

 

That's just not true.  Those relationships were discussed in my Anthro 101 class, although like everything else back then, I remember them through a kind of haze.  But I do remember there were very specific definitions and rules associated with them.  Here's what Wikipedia says (bolding is mine):

 

In law and in cultural anthropology, affinity, as distinguished from consanguinity (blood relationship), is the kinship relationship that exists between two or more people as a result of somebody's marriage. It is the relationship which each party to a marriage has to the relations of the other partner to the marriage; but does not cover the marital relationship of the parties to the marriage themselves. Though laws vary considerably, affinity does not always cease with the death of one of the marriage partners through whom affinity is traced, nor with the divorce of the marriage partners. In addition to kinship by marriage, "affinity" can sometimes also include kinship by adoption and step relationship.

Under the law, such relatives by marriage are known as affines. More commonly, they are known as "in-laws", as affinity is usually signified by adding "-in-law" to a degree of kinship.

In law, affinity may be relevant in relation to prohibitions on incestuous sexual relations and in relation to whether particular couples are prohibited from marrying. Which relationships are prohibited vary from country to country, and from time to time. In some countries, especially in the past the prohibited relationships were based on religious laws.

 

So if there are laws and social codes that apply to in-law relationships and even incest prohibitions around them, I think it's safe to say that they are recognized socially and anthropologically.  I'm no great fan of Carole's, but if she thinks of her cousins-in-law as family, she has a lot of legal and cultural backup for feeling that way.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Carole was asked how she felt and I think she should have left it at that instead of addressing Sonja directly.  When Sonja uses the term "friend" she intentionally or unintentionally cheapens the relationship Carole enjoyed with her husband's cousin who obviously considered her a dear friend by choice.

 

Oh Idk, I think Sonja mentioning "John John" was totally harmless really.  First off, she was obviously drunk off her ass when she said it.  And she was also babbling her other nonsense & bullshit, so it was easy to assume this John John crapola just more of her nonsense & bullshit.  But if asked to comment, I think Carole would have every right to respond (and I'd be totally supportive of her) that given her close relationship with John and his wife, Sonja's drunkety-drunk comments on camera cheapened his memory.  Maybe they did a bit.

 

Look, from what I've heard from peeps I know who knew John was that he was trying (and struggling) very, very hard professionally.  To be seen as the party-dude he absolutely was when he was younger would have been somewhat irritating to him & it may have concerned him how he'd be seen in the business community & how it might ultimately affect his business.  So yeah, he mighta been a tiny bit annoyed by Sonja's comments.  But he was apparently very resilient about such things so he likely would not have cared.  

 

I think Sonja's John John comments were mostly rooted in her finding him attractive & wanting to party with him -- whether she actually did or didn't.  No harm in that, is there?  She certainly wasn't alone in that respect.  In fact, unfortunately, one of the most memorable things about John was that he was extremely good looking & lots of women found him attractive & fantasized about him.  Is that such a horrible thing to remember about him?  I hope Carole doesn't go overboard with this cuz it's just not that big a deal.

[Gam2]

None of us know if Sonja knew John Kennedy Jr. in  a personal way. We know that Carole did. I've read her book- it was so real and heartfelt. It actually haunted me in a way that few books have. At any rate, having lived through this horrible, painful period with her husband and then her friends/relatives dying the way they did 3 weeks before her husband died and not having them there to comfort her, I would believe Carole over Sonja any day of the week. Sonja has some kind of mental problem that we can't understand. 

[Rahul]

None of us know if Sonja knew John Kennedy Jr. in  a personal way. We know that Carole did. I've read her book- it was so real and heartfelt. It actually haunted me in a way that few books have. At any rate, having lived through this horrible, painful period with her husband and then her friends/relatives dying the way they did 3 weeks before her husband died and not having them there to comfort her, I would believe Carole over Sonja any day of the week. Sonja has some kind of mental problem that we can't understand.

It's quite simple really; Sonja has delusions of grandeur.

[One Tough Cookie]

It's quite simple really; Sonja has delusions of grandeur.

 

 

You are far kinder than I.

 

I would have said Sonia has "wet brain".

[Pattycake2]

 

1, LuAnn went after Harry, even though she knew Sonja was seeing him.

 

Nah, that was a Sonja made up little brain moment exacerbated by Bravo editing.

[Mrs peel]

By whom?

 

It's all "relative."    LOL

 

I can tell you that as a native New Yorker of Italian descent, family is family whether they're blood relatives, related by marriage or very close friends considered family.   Try telling Don Corleone that Tom Hagan (not legally adopted) wasn't "family."   LOL  When you marry into a family, you become part of that family.  Anthony and JFK Jr. were as close as brothers so that makes Carole's relationship with John that much stronger.

NY Irish AND Italian here, and my Uncle Harry (my father's childhood friend) and Aunt May (mother's childhood friend) were "family" though not related by blood or marriage.  Though my mother and Aunt May at one time plotted to marry her older son to my sister and me to the younger son :-))

 

But can I say that Carole's relationship is not "stronger" because the 2 cousins were very close?  I'm not trying to deny she had a close relationship (because I don't know of course and her book appears to imply otherwise).  But it's not that unusual that the spouse's relationship is just, well, different. 

 

I actually don't think that Sonja's claims have any effect on what Carole's relationship was, and much like Bethenny can't tell others to not talk about her, she can't really tell Sonja to not talk about her family.  But let's face it, I suspect most if not all of us think Sonja is lying/exaggerating (though the point about him dating airhead Darryl Hannah might make me re-think this!).  And that's the problem. 

[breezy424]

I think what really upset Carole was that Sonja referred to him as 'John, John,' and continued to refer to him as 'John, John' and as someone who was close to John and was family to her, this was disrespectful especially when no one who knew him called him that.  It was nickname given to him by the press.

[motorcitymom65]

I think what really upset Carole was that Sonja referred to him as 'John, John,' and continued to refer to him as 'John, John' and as someone who was close to John and was family to her, this was disrespectful especially when no one who knew him called him that.  It was nickname given to him by the press.

Yes, and I also think she was offended by Sonja's reputation, and what "partying" with her might entail. While she is at times charming, she has also shown herself to be an entitled bitch, who seems to live a life that is not grounded in reality. She is someone who is for the most part mocked by the masses who watch her on TV. I can see how Carole wouldn't want to say it outright, but that she would be irritated that Sonja would decide to use his name in such a manner, in large part because of who Sonja is and how people view her.  It reminds me of last year when she talked about partying on P Diddy's boat. Why pick a name that has such a strong connection to Heather? If she hangs with so many notables, there had to be lots of other names she could pull out of her ass, but she landed on one who is well known to have had a relationship with Heather. And now she talks about John, who has a strong and well known connection to Carole.  The fact is, it's probably not true at all, so why pick names of people who have connections to other folks on the show? She is just crazy and it would drive me nuts if I were Carole or Heather. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by motorcitymom65

[WireWrap]

Yes, and I also think she was offended by Sonja's reputation, and what "partying" with her might entail. While she is at times charming, she has also shown herself to be an entitled bitch, who seems to live a life that is not grounded in reality. She is someone who is for the most part mocked by the masses who watch her on TV. I can see how Carole wouldn't want to say it outright, but that she would be irritated that Sonja would decide to use his name in such a manner, in large part because of who Sonja is and how people view her.  It reminds me of last year when she talked about partying on P Diddy's boat. Why pick a name that has such a strong connection to Heather? If she hangs with so many notables, there had to be lots of other names she could pull out of her ass, but she landed on one who is well known to have had a relationship with Heather. And now she talks about John, who has a strong and well known connection to Carole.  The fact is, it's probably not true at all, so why pick names of people who have connections to other folks on the show? She is just crazy and it would drive me nuts if I were Carole or Heather. 

P Diddy was on WWHL after that episode aired and he said that he has never, ever met Sonja, never ever been on her yacht or partied with her! So, more than likely, she is also lying about knowing/partying with/being friends with JFK Jr as well. IMO, Sonja is a 1 upper, if you say you know someone famous, she also "knows" them, "partied" with them and is "friends" with them because she has to have lived a better, richer, more powerful life than anyone else ever has, ever.

[KFC]

Heh, what I'm genuinely curious about is, why we would have any reason to trust a word out of Sonja's mouth?

 

Sure, we weren't privy to her pre-HW life, but I mean good grief, if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, quack quackadoodle dos like a duck... then it stands to reason she's probably lying about partying with JFK Jr., too.

[zoeysmom]

That is the danger using a stupid term such s "partied".  What does it mean?  You met someone at a party?  You met someone at a party and were both drinking? You shared an illegal substance  with someone?  To me Sonja is trying to glamorize the days when she planned parties for the rich and famous and eventually was a guest at the same parties by virtue of her marriage.   I don't think she is talking about sharing an eight ball with someone.   I guess under the present rules here on Previously TV Sonja Tremont Morgan would  related to two American presidents.  Of course her daughter Quincy is related by blood.  The dangers of claiming in-laws as blood relatives. 

[WireWrap]

That is the danger using a stupid term such s "partied".  What does it mean?  You met someone at a party?  You met someone at a party and were both drinking? You shared an illegal substance  with someone?  To me Sonja is trying to glamorize the days when she planned parties for the rich and famous and eventually was a guest at the same parties by virtue of her marriage.   I don't think she is talking about sharing an eight ball with someone.   I guess under the present rules here on Previously TV Sonja Tremont Morgan would  related to two American presidents.  Of course her daughter Quincy is related by blood.  The dangers of claiming in-laws as blood relatives. 

Except that Morgan divorced her, threw her out of his life and that of his family. I do think divorce can and does alter the "family" claims.

 

IMO, "party" means drinking and hob knobbing with guests and I still doubt that Sonja even got that close to JFK Jr. other than in her mind/dreams. LOL There is a pattern with Sonja with "knowing everyone that was/is anyone" even when they say it never happened and she clings to it with a desperation that even a "sharpie" could not hide/disguise it.

[Almost 3000]

I think the partying was exactly what got Sonja kicked out of the Morgan family.

[Almost 3000]

That was going to be my question. Why did Morgan divorce Ms. Tremont?

Rumor has it that S was partying in Europe and Morgan asked her to come home because he was ill and she declined so divorce papers were waiting for her on her return to the states.

That was going to be my question. Why did Morgan divorce Ms. Tremont?

Rumor has it that S was partying in Europe and Morgan asked her to come home because he was ill and she declined so divorce papers were waiting for her on her return to the states.

[WireWrap]

Rumor has it that S was partying in Europe and Morgan asked her to come home because he was ill and she declined so divorce papers were waiting for her on her return to the states.

Rumor has it that S was partying in Europe and Morgan asked her to come home because he was ill and she declined so divorce papers were waiting for her on her return to the states.

There were also rumors that she was cheating on him but I don't remember anything/anyone proving it though.

[zoeysmom]

Except that Morgan divorced her, threw her out of his life and that of his family. I do think divorce can and does alter the "family" claims.

 

IMO, "party" means drinking and hob knobbing with guests and I still doubt that Sonja even got that close to JFK Jr. other than in her mind/dreams. LOL There is a pattern with Sonja with "knowing everyone that was/is anyone" even when they say it never happened and she clings to it with a desperation that even a "sharpie" could not hide/disguise it.

Here is the difference he can't totally throw Sonja out of the Morgan family-she is the mother a Morgan.  She his entitled to the Morgan name.   Old man Morgan can't force Sonja to surrender it.

 

I do think Sonja met  a lot of people and I the others don't want to hear about it they don't have to go on trips with her.     Sonja does not stand alone in the name dropping department.      http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season/episode-602/videos?clip=2760241  Carole also manages to work in a few of her own most seasons and at one time it was a job for her lunching with the rich and famous and writing a column-she comes by it honestly.  Has anyone figured out how Sonja came up with Madonna being outside her show? So perhaps they need a five year rule-no name dropping of anyone you haven't had personal contact with in the last five years. 

[yourmomiseasy]

That is the danger using a stupid term such s "partied".  What does it mean?  You met someone at a party?  You met someone at a party and were both drinking? You shared an illegal substance  with someone?  To me Sonja is trying to glamorize the days when she planned parties for the rich and famous and eventually was a guest at the same parties by virtue of her marriage.   I don't think she is talking about sharing an eight ball with someone.   I guess under the present rules here on Previously TV Sonja Tremont Morgan would  related to two American presidents.  Of course her daughter Quincy is related by blood.  The dangers of claiming in-laws as blood relatives. 

 

Do you really not see the difference between calling someone that you have/had a very close personal relationship with family versus claiming the ancestry of a family that booted your ass (not that Sonja is, but it's what you're talking about)?  

[WireWrap]

Here is the difference he can't totally throw Sonja out of the Morgan family-she is the mother a Morgan.  She his entitled to the Morgan name.   Old man Morgan can't force Sonja to surrender it.

 

I do think Sonja met  a lot of people and I the others don't want to hear about it they don't have to go on trips with her.     Sonja does not stand alone in the name dropping department.      http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season/episode-602/videos?clip=2760241  Carole also manages to work in a few of her own most seasons and at one time it was a job for her lunching with the rich and famous and writing a column-she comes by it honestly.  Has anyone figured out how Sonja came up with Madonna being outside her show? So perhaps they need a five year rule-no name dropping of anyone you haven't had personal contact with in the last five years. 

She can keep the name until she remarries and, yes, she will always be Quincy's mother. I am also sure she met a lot of famous people but that does not make her their "friend" and that does not mean she still hangs with the same crowd now. LOL

 

I would think if Madonna was outside her show, someone would have reported that by now. Most likely, IF Madonna was outside, it was because she was on her way somewhere else, not that she was checking out Sonja's line or there to support Sonja! LOL

Edited August 18, 2015 by WireWrap

[atir]

She can keep the name until she remarries and, yes, she will always be Quincy's mother. I am also sure she met a lot of famous people but that does not make her their "friend" and that does not mean she still hangs with the same crowd now. LOL

Sonja can keep the Morgan name as long as she wants. Marrying again doesn't mean she need take husband #2's last name

[motorcitymom65]

Here is the difference he can't totally throw Sonja out of the Morgan family-she is the mother a Morgan.  She his entitled to the Morgan name.   Old man Morgan can't force Sonja to surrender it.

 

I do think Sonja met  a lot of people and I the others don't want to hear about it they don't have to go on trips with her.     Sonja does not stand alone in the name dropping department.      http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season/episode-602/videos?clip=2760241  Carole also manages to work in a few of her own most seasons and at one time it was a job for her lunching with the rich and famous and writing a column-she comes by it honestly.  Has anyone figured out how Sonja came up with Madonna being outside her show? So perhaps they need a five year rule-no name dropping of anyone you haven't had personal contact with in the last five years.

I could be in the minority, but I don't mind "name dropping" in the right context. If it's not about bragging or trying to convince others you are as connected as you need them to believe you are. I find it fascinating to learn of the people these gals know if they really have a connection with them and aren't using an association to prop themselves up. That is what Sonja does, and since so much of what she has said over the years has been proven to be at best lies and at worse fraudulent, it is annoying. She looks foolish and it's really kind of pathetic. She looks like someone who is trying to create, or recreate, a life that exists largely in her mind. Beth tried to explain all of this to her when they were in the limo on the way to AC. That constantly bringing up out of thin air all the fabulous people she knows and places she visits is obnoxious. The most telling thing Sonja ever said was when she replied to Beth. She said something like, "right, because they haven't lived that kind of fabulous life and they don't understand". Her sense of delusion and entitlement is shocking.

[abbottrabbit]

. Most likely, IF Madonna was outside, it was because she was on her way somewhere else, not that she was checking out Sonja's line or there to support Sonja! LOL

 

I was also outside Sonja's show, in that -- much like Madonna -- I was not inside Sonja's show. Personally I was way, way outside Sonja's show -- probably in DC or St. Louis, depending on when it was held. I cannot speak for Madonna, since it's been ages since the two of us partied together* with John John**.

 

* By partied together, naturally, I mean that time in junior high when my swing choir did a choreographed dance number to "Material Girl." 

 

** By John John, naturally, I mean John T. and Jon M., who were two of the boys I went to Junior High with. 

[ryebread]

Poor deluded Sonja.  There's a side of me that would like for Madonna to appear on WWHL to say that she was outside Sonja's show in a limo with a live feed.  She didn't want to come in because, even though she and Sonja are dear friends from way back, ew, the unwashed masses.

[ButterQueen]

Bravo is running old reunion shows right now. Given how LuAnn spoke to Carole in this episode, I think Alex said it best -- "LuAnn is a thug in a cocktail dress." I'm caring for my grand-baby today, and I'm surprised I didn't wake him up laughing so hard.

[Giselle]

 All of her pretention doesn't disguise the fact that Luann is a fucking cunt.

 

That cut from the gut mean remark to Carole soured me on her forever. CUNT!

[Mrs peel]

Poor deluded Sonja.  There's a side of me that would like for Madonna to appear on WWHL to say that she was outside Sonja's show in a limo with a live feed.  She didn't want to come in because, even though she and Sonja are dear friends from way back, ew, the unwashed masses.

Better, RyeBread, would be a Madonna impersonator doing this!

[HunterHunted]

Poor deluded Sonja. There's a side of me that would like for Madonna to appear on WWHL to say that she was outside Sonja's show in a limo with a live feed. She didn't want to come in because, even though she and Sonja are dear friends from way back, ew, the unwashed masses.

I wonder if this is the Sonja version of Kelly's Al Sharpton exclamation. Kelly actually meant Jack Nicholson. Sonja's saying Madonna called, but maybe it was Cyndi Lauper or Boy George or RuPaul or Reba McEntire. Or maybe it was Madonna. Hell, Lady Gaga is hanging with Lisa Vanderpump. I think the bedraggled mess that is Sonja Morgan might appeal to the filmmaker side of Madonna.

Edited August 18, 2015 by HunterHunted

[AnnA]

Poor deluded Sonja.  There's a side of me that would like for Madonna to appear on WWHL to say that she was outside Sonja's show in a limo with a live feed.  She didn't want to come in because, even though she and Sonja are dear friends from way back, ew, the unwashed masses.

 

 

[sasha206]

Dorinda, stop letting your daughter run your life! John should call it quits if she won't commit to a healthier relationship.

And Dorinda, didn't you order for both you and John? (Her pet peeve) The pot calling the kettle black....back that shit up.

 

 

I loved how when John is trying to have this conversation about taking the next step in their relationship, Dorinda goes right back to eating.

 

She's just not that into him.  I think she thinks of him fondly and likes companionship but I think she's using her daughter as an excuse not to get closer.

[sasha206]

I just love how she does Bethenny.  Oh I bet that voice has gotta be just as grating in real life.  Brrrr.

 

 

Oh my, that was incredible!  She rocked all of them!

[aradia22]

When Sonja is looking at you like you're crazy you need to reevaluate your life and your BS. Jesus, Ramona at the beginning of this episode...

 

John seems nicer this week. Look, I get needy guys. But he's been around for 3 years. At that point he's entitled to make some demands on your time and to act like he likes you. 

 

"A reason to buy a dress and get a martini. I'm in." I like Dorinda's philosophy.

 

Sonja went for an unexpectedly conservative outfit for Ramona's party.

 

Ramona made less and less sense as her argument with Bethenny went on. She knew she was wrong but clearly didn't know how to either win or shut it down.

 

Luanne looked fabulous.

 

I buy that Kristin is dropping shade in the press either as a desperate bid for a storyline or because she wants to avoid direct confrontation. That said, it did seem like the guy baited her into a quote that he could twist to sound negative.

 

"I'm not introducing him to the children." "I know, 'cause you have none."

Damn. That was cold. Funny. But cold.

 

I'm not sure who I believe in the Luanne/Carole debate. I think Carole can do what she wants with Adam but she can't expect to not get any criticism or jokes. Luanne stretches the truth but we've seen that Carole knows how to stir shit and she likes being the cool girl who is everyone's friend. I can buy that Carole said something to Luanne apologizing about barging into her room. I don't know if it was as dramatic as what Luanne made it out to be because I don't think she'd phrase it in a way that would sell out Heather like that.

 

LOL, Girl Code.

 

WTF, Heather? Where did you come from?

 

It was so mean but I loved Luann and B trolling Ramona during her speech.

 

Also, LOL that Heather has had so few meaningful storylines that her blurb at the end was just about her relationship with other cast members. Jeez, at least Kristen has a nail polish line.