Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[Emily Thrace]

Can't agree with this comparison, it's not even close. Han isn't a mass murderer who also killed his father. There's Bad Boy then there's Super Freaking Evil. Han was a Bad Boy. Ren is Super Freaking Evil.

 

Rey/Kylo Ren would be far more analogous to Leia/Darth Vader if we wanted to put it in OT terms...which, even aside from the incest issues, never even came close to happening. 'Cause Darth Vader was Super Freaking Evil.

 

Vadar wasn't set up as a sympathetic character though. Certainly not to the extent Kylo has been. Ren has consistently shown as conflicted where Vadar didn't show remorse until the end. Kylo has just begun his journey to the dark side while Vadar was a long way over the line. Saying they are at the same level is like saying a random drug runner is equivalent to El Chapo.  In any case, of course Han Solo and Kylo Ren are similar, they are father and son after all. Even if they would hate to admit it

 

Garak while a spy/assassain actually if you read his novel that serves as his bio he is actually a decent guy. Every person he killed was pretty nasty or while appearing to be decent was responsible for a lot of evil things and he refused to torture certain people because they were either innocent or not evil. He is very ambiguous but he isn't evil and he will do what is in his best interests or the interest of his people.

 

Actually it wasn't Gul Dukat who got redeemed it was Legate Damar. Gul Dukat was interested in Kira because he had her mother as his concubine.

 

Your talking about in story and the poster I was responding to was asking about fan reactions. Gul Dukat and Garak were antagonists (or ambiguous in Garak's case I don't think the writers had figured out what side he was actually on until about season 3) who were more popular with the audience than they were intended to be. Garak's also a pretty good example of a redemption arc, as is Damar now that your mention it . Also the writers were completely serious about a Kira/Dukat pairing at one point, thankfully Nana Visitor talked them out of it. The stuff with Kira's mom was something they worked into the story later on. But that's enough Star Trek in the Star Wars thread.

 

Also a Bad Boy can be a loveable rouge and a Jerk with a heart of gold or even a complete asshole its a very broad term because it really describes the relationship between the characters more than the characters themselves. In Han case he's a bad boy simply because his relationship with Leia (which had definite elements of this trope) and because he's pitted against nice guy Luke. Whether Han is a bad boy or doesn't really matter my point is that Leia and the audience react to him that way.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Emily Thrace

[Zuleikha]

Actually vampires as being erotic is fairly recent. Prior to Anne Rice vampires were thought to be disgusting, ugly, deformed.

That's an over-generalization. A number of Victorian vampire stories feature beautiful, erotic vampires. They weren't all Nosferatu.

[Jediknight]

I just found that out. That really fucking annoys me, because I liked Shara. I think I would have much preferred finding out that she taught fighter cadets at the Republic Naval Acadmy at Kuat or something.

Yeah it sucks that they had Shara die a few years after Shattered Empire.  There's the possibility that it will be revealed that Leia named an award of valor or a ship after her.

I didn't get that.  Does Kylo Ren not know Vader's entire history?  Vader turning on the emperor and hugging it out with Luke would seem weak.

He sees it as a moment of weakness.

[Danny Franks]

Kylo Ren cold-bloodedly murdered his father. Han Solo, for all his running his mouth, came back to fight for Luke & the rebellion because it was the right thing to do. Yet somehow these characters are similar?  Kylo Ren is just starting his journey to the Dark Side? The genocide of villages in Jakku, an entire planetary system, cold-blooded murder of his father... People are still bending over backwards to white wash him? To talk about him being conflicted and how he is only just starting his journey to the dark Side?  Ren being conflicted and still committing atrocities makes him far more culpable, and far more contemptible than someone who has deluded himself into thinking he is doing the right thing.

 

Jeez, if he's still beginning his journey to the dark side after mass genocide and patricide, I wonder what exactly it will take for people to stop sympathizing with the emo white boy. 

 

Notice how art imitates life imitates art. 

 

Exactly. The only thing he's conflicted about is the fear that he can't be evil enough. He wants to be evil, he wants to turn his back completely to everything good and light, but he's scared he's not strong enough to. To me, that's worse than someone falling to temptation and succumbing to their weaknesses. At least with Anakin's fall (as badly executed as it was) he was tricked into compromising himself and lured by the supposedly noble goal of saving the woman he loved. 

 

JJ Abrams has set up a very intriguing villain here, because he's someone who is fighting against all of his upbringing and all the good his parents tried to instil in him. Perhaps it's not even a fight. Perhaps he really is just a bad seed, and these supposed struggles are just him shrugging off all the healthy parenting he had as a child. As has been said, he's a very modern villain in that respect, like the school shooters that are becoming sadly more common. Instead of looking at them and trying to find explanations and excuses, people just say that their acts were "senseless". That's Kylo Ren. What he's doing makes no sense to his family, because they brought him up to be much better than a Vader idolising little boy, crippled by his own inadequacies. I honestly don't think we're going to get any excuses for his behaviour from the movies. Yes, we'll hear Leia and Luke bemoan the mistakes they made, wondering if they could have saved him, but that will be them taking blame that belongs to no one but Kylo Ren.

 

I'm actually more convinced that we'll see Kylo Ren usurp Snoke in the second movie, and become the unchallenged leader of the First Order. To me, that's his arc from here. We've seen him as a squalling neophyte who can't control himself, and we need to see him grow as he travels his chosen path. His rise should parallel Rey's, so that when they face each other again, they're equals. And she can kill him.

[blixie]

 

He wants to be evil, he wants to turn his back completely to everything good and light, but he's scared he's not strong enough to.

 

Hmm that's not the way I see it nor do I think it's intended for us to see him as wanting to be EVIL, I think he wants to be *powerful* which is consistent with Anakin's temptations, he wants to bring ORDER and stability to the universe, and as Leia intimates Snoke has a hold on him, feeding him those lines, and because he's not strong in the force he's both unable to fight it off, and unable to be what Snoke wants and needs him to be.

 

Again like Anankin, I feel like they were trying to hit a note of compromised free will, both with Kylo and with Rey, Kylo is under the "influence" of Snoke, and Rey has been mind whammied.I don't at all think I am meant to see his "choices" as free, but I'm not sure that's going to work narratively for too many people because, yeah they took Kylo DARK, on the evil spectrum Kylo > Vader, like child killing, village slaughtering, daddy murdering is....a lot. Vader's all I choked a few bitches and watched my boss blow up a planet, but I ain't got nothing on him.

Edited January 15, 2016 by blixie

[Danny Franks]

Hmm that's not the way I see it nor do I think it's intended for us to see him as wanting to be EVIL, I think he wants to be *powerful* which is consistent with Anakin's temptations, he wants to bring ORDER and stability to the universe, and as Leia intimates Snoke has a hold on him, feeding him those lines, and because he's not strong in the force he's both unable to fight it off, and unable to be what Snoke wants and needs him to be.

 

Again like Anankin, I feel like they were trying to hit a note of compromised free will, both with Kylo and with Rey, Kylo is under the "influence" of Snoke, and Rey has been mind whammied.I don't at all think I am meant to see his "choices" as free, but I'm not sure that's going to work narratively for too many people because, yeah they took Kylo DARK, on the evil spectrum Kylo > Vader, like child killing, village slaughtering, daddy murdering is....a lot. Vader's all I choked a few bitches and watched my boss blow up a planet, but I ain't got nothing on him.

 

He specifically said he can feel the pull of the Light side, and doesn't want to fall to that temptation. It's not about power alone, because Luke can and will have shown him that power can come from the Light side just as easily as the Dark. Leia thinks Snoke has a hold of him because it's easier for Leia to believe that than to believe her son is capable of doing the things he's done of his own free will. Just like many a parent has sought to blame others for their own child's misdeeds. Just like many people online are making excuses for him and trying to say the things he's doing aren't really his fault.

 

As I say, this time around I think it will be Snoke who ends up being played by Kylo Ren, who will be usurped and replaced by his protégé. The hologram of the big, scary, scarred monster doesn't convince me that he's the main villain of this trilogy. This is a story about youth, about the next generation of people who are going to fight this seemingly endless war. I don't see them having the ultimate bad guy be some mysterious foe who dates back to before the Empire, but has gone unknown all this time.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Danny Franks

[blixie]

 

Leia thinks Snoke has a hold of him because it's easier for Leia to believe that than to believe her son is capable of doing the things he's done

 

That's not how it sounded to me, Leia isn't "every" parent, she's a force sensistive parent, she doesn't say she *thinks* Snoke has a hold on him, says she KNEW Snoke was seeking him out, IMO because she sensed it, via her own connection to the force. I think she understands he's culpable for what he's done, but believes most of his actions to be rooted in Snoke's power and control, that she like Luke before her believes in the power of redemption. That was before Kylo murdered Han though, she may have let that slim hope go, though it's not really her style. I'm not convinced of your argument nor your speculation but it's certainly possible, and would make things less of retread. But I'm not convinced they don't *want* to do a retread, and introducing us to a guy who is super evil who then continues to be super evil is not an "arc".

[HeySandyStrange]

 

Hmm that's not the way I see it nor do I think it's intended for us to see him as wanting to be EVIL, I think he wants to be *powerful* which is consistent with Anakin's temptations, he wants to bring ORDER and stability to the universe, and as Leia intimates Snoke has a hold on him, feeding him those lines, and because he's not strong in the force he's both unable to fight it off, and unable to be what Snoke wants and needs him to be.

 

 

He specifically said he can feel the pull of the Light side, and doesn't want to fall to that temptation. It's not about power alone, because Luke can and will have shown him that power can come from the Light side just as easily as the Dark. Leia thinks Snoke has a hold of him because it's easier for Leia to believe that than to believe her son is capable of doing the things he's done of his own free will. Just like many a parent has sought to blame others for their own child's misdeeds. Just like many people online are making excuses for him and trying to say the things he's doing aren't really his fault.

 

At this point and time, I fall somewhat between these two viewpoints. We've had some indications that Ren has been manipulated by Snoke over a long period of time, and I can agree it works in Snoke's favor to have Ren be as unstable and dependent as possible. OTOH, it has also been implied that Ren wants power (ie the darkside) for his own selfish reasons and he doesn't seem to care who gets hurt for it. I don't think there is enough information at this point to really be able to tell if Ren was brainwashed completely or if he is the evilest of evil villains. They can go any number of ways with him going forward and I'm excited to see what happens with his story line. I'm not even against a redemption arc, but I'd prefer it to build over the course of the next movies and not just come out of nowhere. And please, no "love of a good woman/man saves him" bs.

[spaulding]

Exactly. The only thing he's conflicted about is the fear that he can't be evil enough. He wants to be evil, he wants to turn his back completely to everything good and light, but he's scared he's not strong enough to. To me, that's worse than someone falling to temptation and succumbing to their weaknesses. At least with Anakin's fall (as badly executed as it was) he was tricked into compromising himself and lured by the supposedly noble goal of saving the woman he loved.

 

I agree.  That's why he killed Han.  Ren wanted to continue down the Dark Side.  He wanted to remove any weakness/hope that he would go down the other path. 

 

Ren may have been conflicted, but he acted in the best way to continue down the path of the Dark Side. 

[Zuleikha]

I don't think Ren sees the Dark Side as the evil path, though. I think Ren sees it as "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette," which is why he's so torn by the pull of the Light Side. Emotionally he still recognizes that the ends probably do not in fact justify the means, but intellectually, he is committed to the course he's on. Anakin's fall was originally supposed to have more of the political motivation in it, too, and for me, the parts of Revenge of the Sith that still related to that were the strongest parts.

I really hope that the second movie delves into the politics of the First Order/New Republic more... not in a boring, Phantom Menace incoherent way, but as part of exploring that cult-like devotion to ideas that leads people to do horrible things in the name of ideals. Both Hux and Ren come across as true believers--they're not just out to murder for the purpose of murdering, causing pain, and gaining power (Phasma, I'm less sure of). They think they're accomplishing something good with all of this.

[absnow54]

Both Hux and Ren come across as true believers--they're not just out to murder for the purpose of murdering, causing pain, and gaining power (Phasma, I'm less sure of). They think they're accomplishing something good with all of this.

I don't want to join the villain defense squad, but there's an interesting character moment for both Hux and Ren when the First Order finds the Resistance base and plans on using Starkiller to destroy the system. In the book, Hux has objections because with a few more calculations they can pinpoint the exact planet the rebels are on, but Snoke orders fire on all the planets. It was interesting to see Hux have moral objections to killing what he considers innocents, because I think he truly believes that the First Order are in the right. Similarly, Ren also objects blowing up the system, because he's certain that he can get the map from Rey and find Luke. It was such an odd objection because you'd think he'd want to squash the Resistance.

This doesn't make either character redeemable, but it give them both a non-mustache twirling dimension.

[Zuleikha]

I don't understand where the assertion that Kylo Ren is being whitewashed are coming from. Trying to understand his POV isn't trying to whitewash him. It's just trying to understand his story. I don't agree that "What we saw was a bad man who did bad things, was offered a chance to do the right thing, and chose to do even more bad things." That makes it sound like he did bad things for the purpose of doing bad things. That type of villainous character exists, but I just don't think it's how Ren was written or acted. I think what we saw was a fanatic who believed that he was called to a higher purpose and needed to do bad things for that higher purpose. I don't say that to excuse Kylo Ren because I don't think that's an excuse at all; I think it's just a different and more interesting kind of villain.

With Anakin, I think we were supposed to see him in a similar way, but that Lucas totally bungled the execution.

The more cynical part of me suspects that in the case of the PT, there was another young white male (Obi-Wan) for the audience to sympathize with (and ship Padmé with) so people didn't need to fawn over Anakin; while in the case of the ST, Ren is the only character that fits that bill (young, white, male ->sympathetic & shippable), and so he gets to corner that market.

I find a claim like this frustrating because I think it's overcomplicating something that's very simple, but it's difficult to argue. To me, it is very clear that Kylo Ren is sexy and Anakin is not, so of course no one was going to fawn over Anakin. But if you don't see that, that's not something I, or anyone else, can argue or prove.

The best I can do is point out that Emo Kylo Ren fits into a known category of character that is catnip for a certain type of fandom (exhibit A: Spike, exhibit B: Loki), but as far as I know, there is no fandom niche that goes for a character like Attack of the Clones Anakin. AotC Anakin was written as a creeper. He even used the term "milady" right after Padme told him he was making her uncomfortable. Lucas couldn't have written Anakin as more of a turn off for fandom if Lucas had deliberately tried. I would bet that if we were in an alternate world where Attack of the Clones Anakin was written like he was in Clone Wars and in Revenge of the Sith, the same corners of fandom that sexualize Kylo Ren would have done the same to Anakin.

Isn't Finn/Poe the most popular ship, anyway?

[stealinghome]

Again like Anankin, I feel like they were trying to hit a note of compromised free will, both with Kylo and with Rey, Kylo is under the "influence" of Snoke, and Rey has been mind whammied.I don't at all think I am meant to see his "choices" as free, but I'm not sure that's going to work narratively for too many people because, yeah they took Kylo DARK, on the evil spectrum Kylo > Vader, like child killing, village slaughtering, daddy murdering is....a lot. Vader's all I choked a few bitches and watched my boss blow up a planet, but I ain't got nothing on him.

But as others have said, even IF Kylo Ren's free will has been compromised--which, frankly, I don't believe, and with all due respect to the novelization, it's not movie canon unless the line is in the movie--why is that supposed to make him less culpable? Anakin got no free passes for being manipulated by Palpatine. He was still held accountable by Obi-Wan and, you know, everyone else in the galaxy, for being a mass murderer. Why should it be any different for Kylo Ren?

I don't understand where the assertion that Kylo Ren is being whitewashed are coming from. Trying to understand his POV isn't trying to whitewash him. It's just trying to understand his story.

Obviously ymmv, but saying that mass murderer and patricide Kylo Ren is just like Lovable Rogue OT Han Solo instead of OT mass murderer Darth Vader is a big whitewashing in my opinion. Edited January 16, 2016 by stealinghome

[Emily Thrace]

I don't understand where the assertion that Kylo Ren is being whitewashed are coming from. Trying to understand his POV isn't trying to whitewash him. It's just trying to understand his story. I don't agree that "What we saw was a bad man who did bad things, was offered a chance to do the right thing, and chose to do even more bad things." That makes it sound like he did bad things for the purpose of doing bad things. That type of villainous character exists, but I just don't think it's how Ren was written or acted. I think what we saw was a fanatic who believed that he was called to a higher purpose and needed to do bad things for that higher purpose. I don't say that to excuse Kylo Ren because I don't think that's an excuse at all; I think it's just a different and more interesting kind of villain.

With Anakin, I think we were supposed to see him in a similar way, but that Lucas totally bungled the execution. I find a claim like this frustrating because I think it's overcomplicating something that's very simple, but it's difficult to argue. To me, it is very clear that Kylo Ren is sexy and Anakin is not, so of course no one was going to fawn over Anakin. But if you don't see that, that's not something I, or anyone else, can argue or prove.

The best I can do is point out that Emo Kylo Ren fits into a known category of character that is catnip for a certain type of fandom (exhibit A: Spike, exhibit B: Loki), but as far as I know, there is no fandom niche that goes for a character like Attack of the Clones Anakin. AotC Anakin was written as a creeper. He even used the term "milady" right after Padme told him he was making her uncomfortable. Lucas couldn't have written Anakin as more of a turn off for fandom if Lucas had deliberately tried. I would bet that if we were in an alternate world where Attack of the Clones Anakin was written like he was in Clone Wars and in Revenge of the Sith, the same corners of fandom that sexualize Kylo Ren would have done the same to Anakin.

Isn't Finn/Poe the most popular ship, anyway?

There's also the fact that Anakin was a bit of foregone conclusion and would have been harder for people to invest in. If you know there's not going to be a redemption it makes it harder to root for one.

I think people also invested in Kylo because he is Han and Leia son. As several people have already said its bad enough they only sort of got a happily ever after fans want their only child to be more than just a bad guy. I also think redemption is simply a more interesting option. No one is simply born evil so finding where Kylo turned to the darkside is a fairly legitimate question. Bad guy is simply pure evil is bad story I really hope that's not what TPTB plan to go with here.

I also think Kylo is like Han much more than Leia. Ben Solo was born to a family of great hero's but instead of following in their footsteps he decides "fuck it I'm going to the Darkside". That rebellious streak is definitely a Solo trait. Leia and Luke may have been rebel fighters but their not really rebellious or iconclasts at heart Han is though. Not too mention their shared short fuses (Leia only really get pissed off around Han) and tendency to act on impulse. The only real Skywalker traits I noticed is Kylo's sensitivity. Like Anakin and Luke before him Kylo reacts strongly and feels deeply especially to any kind of criticism or failure.

[absnow54]

I get that there are Kylo Ren fan girls who are mounting ridiculous defenses of the character and a possible relationship with Rey on other corners of the web, but I don't really see it in this thread, so finding Kylo Ren to be both an interesting villain and character feels like also scrawling "Reylo 4eva" on a trapper keeper. I agree with those who find him terrifying because he's basically suffering from affluenza and falls into the mass murderer category that would be covered on the news as a sympathetic loner. I get in real life what a terrible person he would be, and I would never root for a romantic relationship between him and Rey because "I take what I want" was such a troubling violation.

 

But, the thing is, I want what Han and Leia and Luke want, and in the realm of fiction, if they forgave him, I probably would too. Characters like the Emperor and Snoke are boring to me because they're evil for the sake of being evil, so if Kylo is evil simply because he's a bad seed, then all the ties he has to legacy characters feels pointless, as well as his conflict. I want the context of when and how he was seduced by the dark side, because based on the world we saw at the end of Return of the Jedi, he should have had everything. I hope "oh, he was just a shitty person" isn't the excuse, because Kylo is a Skywalker and within the Star Wars Saga, that automatically makes me wonder where his Hero's Journey went wrong.

 

I also can't get on board with this "what's up with women finding this attractive" discussion when violence against women is so prevalent in every form of media, and although it isn't romanticized it's used as entertainment. Within the Star Wars Saga look at Leia in her slave bikini which has been a sexual icon for decades. Both men and women can have fucked up rape culture fantasies. 

 

The more cynical part of me suspects that in the case of the PT, there was another young white male (Obi-Wan) for the audience to sympathize with (and ship Padmé with) so people didn't need to fawn over Anakin; while in the case of the ST, Ren is the only character that fits that bill (young, white, male ->sympathetic & shippable), and so he gets to corner that market.

It's possible, but I think it more had more to do with Anakin being a creeper. Buffy/Spike/Angel, Hermione/Draco/Ron(Harry), Sydney/Sark/Vaughn are all examples of having white guy love interests that still had opposing bad boy ships because the villain was so charismatic, while Hayden Christensen as Anakin was such a wet rag, and his chemistry with Natalie so wooden that it was a real struggle to find the pairing compelling. I would compare Finn with Ron Weasley, funny, charming, and reluctantly brave, and, well... 

Edited January 16, 2016 by absnow54

[Lantern7]

Just found this from Cracked: If The New Star Wars Was 100 Times More Honest (And Shorter).

[Zuleikha]

I also can't get on board with this "what's up with women finding this attractive" discussion when violence against women is so prevalent in every form of media, and although it isn't romanticized it's used as entertainment.

It's not always romanticized, but it is almost always sexualized. 

 

I think there's also a distinction between a character being sexy and a character's actions being sexy. I did not find the interrogation scene itself sexy, but I do think Adam Driver gave Kylo Ren a charismatic, sexy, on-screen energy and that there was a one-sided sexual energy between him and Rey. As I've grown older, that type of character has lost its appeal to me. To give an idea of where I'm at currently, I found the sexiest moment in the movie to be the moment when Han and Leia first saw each other after the Resistance rescue. But when I was younger, Kylo Ren was exactly the type of character I fangirled for. As a driven, overachiever type who followed all the rules, fictional self-destruction was very compelling. 

[anna0852]

I also think Kylo is like Han much more than Leia. Ben Solo was born to a family of great hero's but instead of following in their footsteps he decides "fuck it I'm going to the Darkside". That rebellious streak is definitely a Solo trait. Leia and Luke may have been rebel fighters but their not really rebellious or iconclasts at heart Han is though. Not too mention their shared short fuses (Leia only really get pissed off around Han) and tendency to act on impulse. The only real Skywalker traits I noticed is Kylo's sensitivity. Like Anakin and Luke before him Kylo reacts strongly and feels deeply especially to any kind of criticism or failure.

Don't forget the Skywalker Whining Gene. Ren got a good dose of that one!

[JessePinkman]

Don't forget the Skywalker Whining Gene. Ren got a good dose of that one!

Rey is definitely not a Skywalker then, she didn't whine at all! Theory busted!

[HeySandyStrange]

Rey is definitely not a Skywalker then, she didn't whine at all! Theory busted!

 

Maybe only Skywalker males inherit the whiner gene? Leia is pretty tough and no-nonsense.

 

Plus her potential Skymom might've been a badass non-whiner.

Edited January 17, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[Watcher0363]

Shortly before Christmas I was forced to face who I was as a person. So I decided that the Christmas holiday would be the time that I let my friends and family know who I was inside. I came out of the closet and revealed my true self to them. Now I think it is time I do so to my online communities. It's not as easy as I thought it would be, but here it goes. THE NEW STAR WARS MOVIE SUCKS!! They have turn Star Wars into Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi, the scourge of all stem trained males and a select few women who did not lose interest in science after eight grade. Say what you will about George Lucas's interpretation of his own work. At least he understood that space and battle are places where only the well trained thrive and survive. Such is not the case in The Force Awakens.

 

The people over at the feminist frequency should be celebrating. For you have won. With the rise of Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi you have managed to effectively kill off the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and replace her with the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. Yeah, for the new modern feminist! Yeah for the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi crowd! Yeah for the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl! With her standard characteristics being that she walked around most of her life, totally clueless and unremarkable as a human being, compared to other hard working high achieving girls. Then one day she starts to menstruate or kisses a boy or reads some magic words or in the worst case dies.

 

Then all of a sudden she emerges, still clueless, but with superior warrior skills, enough to best the evil at hand. The evil at hand is usually 'a evil boy' in a mans body, which she happens to be crushing on. Mean while her newly found snowflake status endears her to the hearts and minds of many who are willing to sacrifice their lives so Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl can live on to fulfill her destiny of saving a group, race or the entire human race. Inevitably on her journey to save the world she asks, how am I able to do all of this? The question should be rhetorical, because we all know she is the snowflake commonly referred to as Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. I am hash tagging that. #CluelessCinderellaWarriorGirl.

 

Well at least the females are faring better in the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi that is the Force Awakens. As for the minorities, all we get is the wise cracking garbage man, err, sanitation engineer straight out of the Compton sector. The only things missing from his ghetto, err, urban performance was some old guy calling him a big dummy and a Tupac reference. Okay he was chivalrous enough to try and hold the snowflake's hand when they were running from the bad guys. I am assuming that is where he got the skill to wield a lightsaber. Touching the hand of a snowflake who is a Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl, is good like that.

 

I am not going to bad mouth Hollywood for they are in the business of making money. Disney paid good money for the rights to Star wars and judging by the scoreboard bank they are making with their latest incarnation of Star Wars. If they want to helm a Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi Star Wars with a Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. They are more than a little right!

 

It had to be said somewhere.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Watcher0363

[lion10]

I also can't get on board with this "what's up with women finding this attractive" discussion when violence against women is so prevalent in every form of media, and although it isn't romanticized it's used as entertainment. Within the Star Wars Saga look at Leia in her slave bikini which has been a sexual icon for decades. Both men and women can have fucked up rape culture fantasies. 

 

Yeah, but two things about this:  One is that when men have more messed up "rape culture fantasies", at least they aren't the ones in a subordinate role.  And two, there are way more female fans that are willing to look past the horrible actions of the male villain so long as he's good looking.  The Klaroline ship of Vampire Diaires is a perfect example of this.  Klaus absolutely ruins Elena's, Caroline's best friend, life by threatening and killing people she loves and it's probably the most popular ship on the show.  Klaus intentionally poisons and later cures Caroline because she pissed him and fans described it as a tender moment between the couple.  Elena begins a relationship with the man who kills her brother because she romantically rejected him.  The Marvel fandom loves Loki, not just as a villain but as a person even though he launched an invasion of Earth that killed hundreds.  It's definitely a recurring pattern that you simply don't see with male fans.

[Emily Thrace]

Yeah, but two things about this:  One is that when men have more messed up "rape culture fantasies", at least they aren't the ones in a subordinate role.  And two, there are way more female fans that are willing to look past the horrible actions of the male villain so long as he's good looking.  The Klaroline ship of Vampire Diaires is a perfect example of this.  Klaus absolutely ruins Elena's, Caroline's best friend, life by threatening and killing people she loves and it's probably the most popular ship on the show.  Klaus intentionally poisons and later cures Caroline because she pissed him and fans described it as a tender moment between the couple.  Elena begins a relationship with the man who kills her brother because she romantically rejected him.  The Marvel fandom loves Loki, not just as a villain but as a person even though he launched an invasion of Earth that killed hundreds.  It's definitely a recurring pattern that you simply don't see with male fans.

 

I don't think that's true for one Loki has plenty of male fans. There are plenty male characters who do terrible things that are defended by fans. Vadar is one Snape is another. I've known plenty of male shippers over the years.  So it really isn't just women rooting for these bad boys. I think tumblr just gives certain aspects of fandom more of a platform. Tumblr lends itself better to gifs of your favorite couple than solid discussions about why a character did what. Besides for every girl defending the asshole there is someone fighting for the nice guy or even just explaining why her fave is problematic. What your talking about is actually a portion of of a section of fandom they just tend to be a fairly loud obnoxious part.

[Lantern7]

Watching SNL. They did a sweet Undercover Boss spoof with Kylo Ren posing as a Starkiller techie. The monologue also had SW goodness.

[Zuleikha]

One is that when men have more messed up "rape culture fantasies", at least they aren't the ones in a subordinate role.

This reads to me like you are saying it's better to fantasize being a rapist (since that's the dominant role). Please tell me I'm misinterpreting.

 

I don't think that's true for one Loki has plenty of male fans. There are plenty male characters who do terrible things that are defended by fans.

Yeah, I agree. Kylo Ren dolls aren't being sold because Hasbro thinks teenager and adult female fangirls think Kylo Ren are sexy; they're sold because they think little boys are going to like the cool dressed villain in the Force Awakens just like they like Vader and Stormtroopers. Also, I am so over seeing female desire being policed. It's not like it's hard to avoid Reylo fandom. Avoid fanfic and Tumblrs tagged as Reylo. Done. 

 

With the rise of Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi you have managed to effectively kill off the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and replace her with the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl.

And this differs from Luke Skywalker (other than gender) how exactly? 

[Jediknight]

Well at least the females are faring better in the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi that is the Force Awakens. As for the minorities, all we get is the wise cracking garbage man, err, sanitation engineer straight out of the Compton sector.

The best pilot in the galaxy is Latino (he also might be gay), and there was an Asian X-Wing pilot who survived.

 

You're ignoring a lot about Finn.  He was the only one to stand up to the First Order and break his conditioning, he was the one who saved Poe, and he wasn't afraid of Kylo Ren, he took the fight right to him.  Finn was very selfless, and despite being ashamed of being in the First Order, nobody judges him for it.  Hell, his defection of the First Order is rightfully seen as courageous.

[lion10]

This reads to me like you are saying it's better to fantasize being a rapist (since that's the dominant role). Please tell me I'm misrepresenting.

I said that badly. My point is that it's strange to me as a guy because yeah, guys like the idea of getting with the hottest girl in school, but you don't see (or at least I haven't seen it) this fantasy that a guy's love can change this bad girl near as much as you see the genderswapped version in media. It's a staple of young adult fiction that the main character's love will change the man she desires.

[Proclone]

Shortly before Christmas I was forced to face who I was as a person. So I decided that the Christmas holiday would be the time that I let my friends and family know who I was inside. I came out of the closet and revealed my true self to them. Now I think it is time I do so to my online communities. It's not as easy as I thought it would be, but here it goes. THE NEW STAR WARS MOVIE SUCKS!!  They have turn Star Wars into Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi.

 

The people over at the feminist frequency should be celebrating. For you have won. With the rise of Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi you have managed to effectively kill off the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and replace her with the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. Yeah, for the new modern feminist! Yeah for the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi crowd! Yeah for the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl! With her standard characteristics being that she walked around most of her life, totally clueless and unremarkable as a human being, compared to other hard working high achieving girls. Then one day she starts to menstruate or kisses a boy or reads some magic words or in the worst case dies.

 

It had to be said somewhere.

 

 

And this differs from Luke Skywalker (other than gender) how exactly? 

 

 

It doesn't.  It's the classic hero's journey.  The hero is living a normal life then is called to adventure (finds out they're special), generally refuses the call at first and then goes on an adventure.  The only difference is...gasp...a girl has the gall to go on it in this one.  Star Wars was always really YA fare.  It's certainly YA fare that people of all ages could enjoy, but it was always geared towards kids or more specifically boys.  The sour grapes about Rey being the main character and being a "Mary Sue" all seem to me to stem from a case of, "How dare you get your girl cooties on our Star Wars." I think it's all about men (and I use that term loosely because I don't think real men are threatened by competent women) who were boys when the originals came out, who identified and wanted to be Luke, but now don't know who to identify with because the character they'd really most like to be lacks a penis.  Sure girls can be smart, sarcastic and relatively competent (Leia was a good shot) in Star Wars, but they still always need to be the one being rescued and if they would put on a metal bikini that would be nice too. We might even be enlightened enough to let one be a Jedi, but she certainly can't be our main character.

[ybrik]

Also don't forget even if they are fighting and holding their own, they will have strategic pieces of clothing torn off ie Padme in AOTC. Listened to the We Hate Movies podcast on Attack of The Clones and they brought up that Padme in that seen looked like she was in a Britney Spears video. Which was appropriate for that time period.

Edited January 17, 2016 by ybrik

[Morrigan2575]

@Proclone Brilliant post!

[absnow54]

I said that badly. My point is that it's strange to me as a guy because yeah, guys like the idea of getting with the hottest girl in school, but you don't see (or at least I haven't seen it) this fantasy that a guy's love can change this bad girl near as much as you see the genderswapped version in media. It's a staple of young adult fiction that the main character's love will change the man she desires.

This discussion is probably better suited for the Gender in Movies thread, but I think the "guy just wants to get with the hottest girl in school" fantasy is akin to the "woman wants to fix a man with her love" fantasy. The hottest girl is seen as a prize that the hero is entitled to, usually after saving her. Even Star Wars starts off with Luke wanting to rescue the beautiful princess, this, of course was subverted when Leia took control of her own rescue mission. The original posters had Luke's heaving muscular chest ripping through his desert garb, while Leia with full cleavage and a slit up to her ass to expose her bare leg clings to his feet. This is a completely inaccurate portrayal of the characters, but plays into male fantasies of the ordinary guy becoming a hero and winning the hot girl.

Edited January 17, 2016 by absnow54

[KatWay]

I don't think it's anti-feminist to point out that Rey was maybe a tad too good at everything. I actually thought she worked as a character and I liked her a lot, at least partly due to Daisy Ridley's adorableness, but compared to Luke, she really went from 0 to 100.

 

I do hope it'll turn out that she got some training as a child and her memories were blocked or something, because otherwise I do think it's unbelievable how quickly she learned. It took Luke TWO movies and a whole lot of training from Obi-Wan AND Yoda to get to the point that Rey basically is at after a day or two without any Jedi training whatsoever.

 

I still think she's a good character, I was rooting for her and everything, but I think the final confrontation between Kylo Ren & Rey could have been staged differently...at the very least, she shouldn't have been able to gain the upperhand and nearly defeat him. The planet cracking should have saved her, not him. She still could have gotten a hell yeah moment or two in that fight, but wounded, emotionally vulnerable and distracted or not, a Jedi with decades of training shouldn't have lost to a girl who literally had started using the force maybe an hour before. 

[Emily Thrace]

Shortly before Christmas I was forced to face who I was as a person. So I decided that the Christmas holiday would be the time that I let my friends and family know who I was inside. I came out of the closet and revealed my true self to them. Now I think it is time I do so to my online communities. It's not as easy as I thought it would be, but here it goes. THE NEW STAR WARS MOVIE SUCKS!!  They have turn Star Wars into Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi.

 

The people over at the feminist frequency should be celebrating. For you have won. With the rise of Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi you have managed to effectively kill off the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and replace her with the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. Yeah, for the new modern feminist! Yeah for the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi crowd! Yeah for the Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl! With her standard characteristics being that she walked around most of her life, totally clueless and unremarkable as a human being, compared to other hard working high achieving girls. Then one day she starts to menstruate or kisses a boy or reads some magic words or in the worst case dies.

 

Then all of a sudden she emerges, still clueless, but with superior warrior skills, enough to best the evil at hand. The evil at hand is usually 'a evil boy' in a mans body, which she happens to be crushing on. Mean while her newly found snowflake status endears her to the hearts and minds of many who are willing to sacrifice their lives so Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl can live on to fulfill her destiny of saving a group, race or the entire human race. Inevitably on her journey to save the world she asks, how am I able to do all of this? The question should be rhetorical, because we all know she is the snowflake commonly referred to as Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. I am hash tagging that. #CluelessCinderellaWarriorGirl.

 

Well at least the females are faring better in the Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi that is the Force Awakens. As for the minorities, all we get is the wise cracking garbage man, err, sanitation engineer straight out of the Compton sector. The only things missing from his ghetto, err, urban performance was some old guy calling him a big dummy and a Tupac reference. Okay he was chivalrous enough to try and hold the snowflake's hand when they were running from the bad guys. I am assuming that is where he got the skill to wield a lightsaber. Touching the hand of a snowflake who is a Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl, is good like that.

 

I am not going to bad mouth Hollywood for they are in the business of making money. Disney paid good money for the rights to Star wars and judging by the scoreboard bank they are making with their latest incarnation of Star Wars. If they want to helm a Young Adult Chick Sci-Fi Star Wars with a Clueless Cinderella Warrior Girl. They are more than a little right!

 

It had to be said somewhere.

 

You mean like Luke was magically the best pilot in the rebellion after spending two minutes in an x-wing? Or Anakin accidentally being the best pilot, pod racer and droid builder there is? Yes Rey is good at things but she no worse than her predecessors in that regard. So I feel this line of criticism is more ew ick girl parts taking over my Star Wars than anything else.  It had to be said somewhere.

 

Honestly I feel like Finn and Rey could have switched genders and it wouldn't have changed a thing which means the movie was pretty damn egalitarian actually.

[Mars477]

A few hours after Luke learned about the Force, he hopped into a fighter aircraft that he'd never been in before, flew it into combat (which he'd never been in before), dodged ground fire and attacks from enemy fighters (I somehow doubt that the womp rats had Triple A or an air force), managed to not get killed with the deadliest fighter ace in the galaxy firmly locked on his 6, and made an impossible shot that highly experienced combat pilots missed.

 

Meanwhile, Kylo Ren had been shot by the in-universe equivalent of a .50 BMG round, and unlike a certain whiny farmboy, Rey actually had some melee fighting experience.

You mean like Luke was magically the best pilot in the rebellion after spending two minutes in an x-wing? Or Anakin accidentally being the best pilot, pod racer and droid builder there is? Yes Rey is good at things but she no worse than her predecessors in that regard. So I feel this line of criticism is more ew ick girl parts taking over my Star Wars than anything else.  It had to be said somewhere.

 

Honestly I feel like Finn and Rey could have switched genders and it wouldn't have changed a thing which means the movie was pretty damn egalitarian actually.

The TLDR for Watcher0363's post seems to basically be "The main character is a girl now, it must be YA!" Edited January 17, 2016 by Mars477

[Zuleikha]

It took Luke TWO movies and a whole lot of training from Obi-Wan AND Yoda to get to the point that Rey basically is at after a day or two without any Jedi training whatsoever.

 

I would not describe what Luke received as "a whole lot of training." Obi-Wan trained him for what... two days? a week? Yoda was a similarly small amount of time in Empire and I don't think a ton more in Return of the Jedi. Certainly, it was nothing like what the Jedi of the Republic received. 

 

I would not assume Rey has no training either. I thought the movie implied she was being trained at the temple when the Knights of Ren attacked. Remember that historic Jedi training started so young that the Jedi council worried that 9-year-old Anakin was too old.

[stealinghome]

I really, really like the movie, but watching the MRA outrage over a strong female protagonist has been almost as satisfying. "Oh noes! Competent women in our boy movies! CAN'T HAVE THAT!"

[Izeinwinter]

Too good at everything is a critique which very nearly never gets applied to male characters. Take a second. When was the last time you saw this brought up for a male main character. The hero of a movie?

 

 So yes, it's a sexist critique. 

[moonb]

You could argue that had Leia been the protagonist of the OT, she would have been a bit too good at everything as well. One of the leaders of the rebellion at age 20, tortured by Darth Vader twice, shoots and hits nearly every stormtrooper she aims at, rescues the two guys who come to rescue her - it sounds familiar. It's just that she isn't a pilot, isn't (originally) Force-sensitive, and she's remembered for a love story and the previously mentioned gold bikini.  But if A New Hope were told from her pov, she could have been Rey-like.  There probably isn't a gold bikini scenario in Rey's future, but it seems likely there's some kind of romantic storyline in her future, even if it's brief.

[JessePinkman]

I would not describe what Luke received as "a whole lot of training." Obi-Wan trained him for what... two days? a week? Yoda was a similarly small amount of time in Empire and I don't think a ton more in Return of the Jedi. Certainly, it was nothing like what the Jedi of the Republic received. 

 

I've done some research (this is a very important topic you know) and people say that Luke trains with Yoda about 3 days but honestly, Han and Leia don't even change clothes from leaving Hoth to arriving at Cloud City so who knows?

 

It's so readily accepted that a white man can be innately extraordinary but once you apply that to anyone else it results in all this wide eyed bewilderment, "But--but HOW???". It's just hilarious at this point.

[KatWay]

Look, obviously this criticism is pointed at female characters more often,but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. There are plenty powerful female characters who don't get that criticism, but if you have a "from zero to hero" narrative you have to make it somewhat organic. Which for the most part, Rey's story absolutely was.

 

It was only the use of the force that irritated me. I have absolutely no problem with Rey being an awesome pilot, an awesome mechanic and great with her fight stick. But the fact that she beat a trained Sith lord at her first attempt with a light saber was a bit much I thought. Luke got shot in the ass by those training drones for much of his first training.

 

If Luke had beaten Darth Vader at a light saber duel in the first movie I would have complained too. And people complained plenty about Anakin in Phantom Menace being too good at everything.

 

I hope that they make Kylo Ren a bit more competent for the next movie because as of now, he barely seems like a threat. He clearly couldn't hold his own against Rey, a total newbie. Darth Vader was such a menace, there was an actual "how is Luke ever going to defeat him" narrative.

[Mars477]

Look, obviously this criticism is pointed at female characters more often,but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. There are plenty powerful female characters who don't get that criticism, but if you have a "from zero to hero" narrative you have to make it somewhat organic. Which for the most part, Rey's story absolutely was.

It was only the use of the force that irritated me. I have absolutely no problem with Rey being an awesome pilot, an awesome mechanic and great with her fight stick. But the fact that she beat a trained Sith lord at her first attempt with a light saber was a bit much I thought. Luke got shot in the ass by those training drones for much of his first training.

If Luke had beaten Darth Vader at a light saber duel in the first movie I would have complained too. And people complained plenty about Anakin in Phantom Menace being too good at everything.

I hope that they make Kylo Ren a bit more competent for the next movie because as of now, he barely seems like a threat. He clearly couldn't hold his own against Rey, a total newbie. Darth Vader was such a menace, there was an actual "how is Luke ever going to defeat him" narrative.

Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader. KYLO REN IS NOT DARTH VADER. This is the entire foundation of his character. How do you miss that?

The guy is basically a trumped up Padawan, and even Snoke says that Kylo's training is not complete. His status comes from being a one eyed man in the land of the blind. He is not the implacable faceless badass that Vader is (because, among other things, Abrams and company realize that audiences don't root against implacable faceless badasses anymore).

[Athena]

A couple of gentle reminders:

 

The number one rule on these forums is to be civil to your fellow posters. You can make your point and disagree, but please do so in a respective tone.

 

Being in fandom or discussing fandom does not happen in a vacuum. You can discuss your opinion on ships, themes, characters, and so forth without being overly critical of other fans or posters. While you guys have been decent about it so far, we are wary of any discussion about other fans here or on other sites. It can cause flame wars and bring in some trolls.

 

You've all been good so far. I hope our discussions about this movie can continue until the next one. Thank you.

[KatWay]

 

Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader. KYLO REN IS NOT DARTH VADER. This is the entire foundation of his character. How do you miss that?

Did I say that anywhere? Obviously the character is different. Narratively speaking he fulfills almost the exact same function though. Obeying a higher evil force and doing the footwork for the (almost) unseen evil overlord. So a bit disappointing that he wasn't more menacing in the second half of the film. He doesn't really come across as a threat to the heroes that much. 

 

And he's got to be at least the same age as Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, who was a Jedi Knight hoping to become a Master. Also, complete or not, decades of training compared to "just found out about the Force this morning!" (barring any development of memory repressed childhood training on Rey's part).

 

And that's all I'll say on this because I really don't even care that much about this. It was a minor nitpick I had with the movie, which I liked overall. Honestly, I was much more annoyed with the stupid Nazi imagery.

[blixie]

 

Also, complete or not, decades of training compared to "just found out about the Force this morning!"

 

I don't think the force is strong with him, training or not, and it IS strong with Rey, who also clearly has some training, this assumption that Rey has not been trained in the ways of the force is pretty suspect given her visions. This makes Rey exactly the same as Luke, and Kylo quite a bit less than Vader in terms of force affinity/training, but he's far more formidable in the damage he's done with or without the force. Everything we saw him do he did with the power of an army, or by virtue of simple betrayal, but it's quite the body count just the same.

 

I have zero problem with Rey kicking his ass or with how accomplished she was using the force.

[Zuleikha]

And he's got to be at least the same age as Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, who was a Jedi Knight hoping to become a Master.

Ben/Kylo Ren may be the same age as Revenge of the Sith Anakin, but there's no other comparison. Anakin really was a fully trained Jedi Knight and he'd honed his skills through active combat against Sith-trained Jedi, battle droids, and other skilled combatants.

 

By contrast, Kylo Ren is explicitly stated to be incompletely trained. We don't know to what extent he's actually been trained or when he started training. All we know is that he fell under Snoke's influence, rejected the Light side of the Force, and is being trained by Snoke to something Dark Side related. It seems unlikely that Kylo Ren ever fought serious combat as opposed to the types of military actions we saw in the beginning of the movie, where he got to parade out to an already cowed populace with superior numbers. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Kylo Ren has never faced another Force-sensitive opponent in even fake combat since he led the massacre of Luke's trainees. IMHO, he's not even equivalent to Ahsoka Tano, Anakin's padawan. 

 

Also, it does matter that he was very wounded when he fought Finn and Rey. I can't think of a single canon source that portrayed Sith or Jedi as able to use the Force to render serious wounds meaningless. They use the Force to become superior combatants and avoid injury. But when they're seriously wounded, it affects them. In the movies, we see loss of a limb end battles, and Luke nearly freeze to death. In other canon sources, we see Jedi knocked unconscious by falling objects. I can't think of an exact parallel to Kylo Ren's injury, but the general trend is that his Force abilities are not going to cancel out the fact that he was shot with a powerful weapon and was actively bleeding out into the snow. The longer he had to fight, the worse condition he was going to be in. 

[Raja]

 

 

 

What I also loved:  Seeing it in a theater with only 14 other people there.

In my mostly full theatre with an obvious fan I heard him threatening an audience member when her baby cried once. I have heard "shhhs" before but never a full out ":you better get that baby out of here" from someone talking back to the screen at things like the first sight of the Falcon 

[MrsR]

Well to be fair, you called Kylo a Sith Lord, which he most definitely is not.

 

He's a superannuated padawan, with a faulty weapon, a cool costume and a # one position in a brand new cult. Who the heck is training him and sparring with him in light saber exercises?  He's no master.

 

I can see Snoke beating him in a "tearing architectural features off of walls and tossing them around" fight but a light saber fight?  Snoke doesn't look up to it.

 

Rey on the other hand is fit, enraged, and channeling the force in a way that Ren can only imagine. And she has a MUCH better weapon.

 

And I admire that the chasm opening acted not as a deus ex machina, but as a satan ex machina. I love a good reversal.

[lion10]

I thought it was a little too much that Rey could turn Kylo's mind-reading trick back on him.  In that situation, they're both relatively fresh, Rey hasn't really felt the Force before (or at least hasn't actively used it in a decade), and Kylo's been established to be really strong in the Force as evidenced by him stopping the blaster bolt in mid-air, something we've never seen a Force user do before.  Just having Rey resist his mind-reading would've been enough.

 

That said, I do look forward to the next movie to see where they take Rey and Kylo.  Because regardless of him not completing his training or not, he's been actively using the Force way longer than Rey has.  But Kylo got out-Forced by Rey when he was at nearly full health, and she beat him in a lightsaber duel to the point where she could've killed him.  So to me I'm not really worried about Rey's safety if she fights Kylo again because she's already kicked his ass and she was barely/not at all trained.  There's no tension there.  

 

And with Rey, she's pilot of the Millennium Falcon, she's accepted that whoever left her on Jakku is never coming back, she's gotten over her abandonment issues, and she resisted the pull to the dark side in the heat of battle, the time when an inexperienced Force user would be most susceptible to it.  Unlike Luke in A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, she clearly believes in the power of the Force.  There doesn't seem to be a lot left for where her character can develop without undoing some of the growth she went in this film.  At the end of A New Hope, there was still the shadow of Vader and the Emperor, with The Force Awakens, there's only Snoke's shadow.

 

And then there's Finn.  I figured from the promos that Rey would be a Jedi, but I was hoping Finn would be force sensitive as well. Instead, we got a bumbling character who serves as a glorified sidekick for Rey, which unfortunately follows a long pattern of a black character being used to prop up a white protagonist.

I also really hope they go somewhere with his character. Right now the only thing he's got going for him is his blaster skills, which we barely saw, and his sense of morality. Both skills are duplicated by other people and simply don't stand out in the Star Wars universe. Finn either needs to develop more useful skills, or he needs to become amazingly good with what he has.

 

I'd also like to add that I was a kid when I saw The Phantom Menace on TV for the first time and I thought it was ridiculous that Anakin was able to take out the central droid control unit.  And Luke knocked out by the Tusken Raiders and had to be saved by Obi-Wan and Vader did get Luke in his sights but his ship was incapacitated by Han unexpectedly returning to the battle.  

 

And who decided that "Snoke" was a menacing villain name?  Jesus.

 

To end on a positive note, I'm really looking forward to Episode 8, especially with the news that Benicio Del Toro's going to be in it!  His performance in Sicario was fantastic.

[Zuleikha]

And Luke knocked out by the Tusken Raiders and had to be saved by Obi-Wan and Vader did get Luke in his sights but his ship was incapacitated by Han unexpectedly returning to the battle.

Rey made serious mistakes in the Force Awakens, too. She released the rathtar on accident, almost getting Finn killed. She ran away from the lightsaber and Force, which resulted in getting herself captured by Kylo Ren. She got knocked unconscious by him in that final battle and needed Finn to take over the fight until she came back to consciousness.

 

I am also less confident than you that Rey's permanently resisted the pull of the Dark Side. She has a lot of pain in her past that she has not yet begun to confront. We are nowhere near done with her issues resulting from her abandonment on Jakku, and odds are very good that either Leia or Luke or both will be directly involved in why she grew up an orphan, scavanging junk for food. I won't be surprised at all if Ep 8 ends with Rey going Dark Side and Ep 9 being Finn and other characters having to bring her back to the Light. Also, Kylo Ren was kicking her ass at the beginning of the light saber duel, so it's no sure thing that she'd beat him if they had a rematch when he's neither injured nor in emotional turmoil. I also think she out-Forced him in part because he wasn't expecting her to be able to defend against him or reverse him and so he was utterly unprepared. Next time they meet, he'll also be stronger and more prepared.

 

 

 

Instead, we got a bumbling character who serves as a glorified sidekick for Rey, which unfortunately follows a long pattern of a black character being used to prop up a white protagonist.

How was Finn bumbling? We didn't see much of him with a blaster, but he shot down the First Order ships in both air engagements, which allowed him and Poe and then him and Rey to escape. He captured Phasma to bring down the shields, and with neither Force training nor (presumably) Force sensitivity, he was able to hold off Kylo Ren long enough for Rey to return to consciousness. And he was savvy enough to know that the First Order would have agents reporting to them in Maz Kanata's (which no one else seemed to believe or at least to try and prepare for). He had comedic lines, but so did Han Solo and Poe Dameron. It's not like Finn was a C-3PO or Jar-Jar type of character, who just bumbled through events with no clue or intention.

 

ETA: I totally agree with you about Snoke. though. I think it's trying to carry on the tradition of Dooku, but let's all unite in agreement that both of those were horrible names for villains. Sidious and Vader are good villain names. Kylo Ren's not bad. But Snoke and Dooku? Seriously?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Zuleikha

[Watcher0363]

George Lucas himself did not have the most kind words or thoughts on the movie. I do not know why, but I can guest one reason is. That he literally spent a lifetime building a mythology about the Jedi. Their elitism due to rigorous training, all made completely moot in one 2hr movie. Both Finn and Rey handling lightsabers like they were born to them. Finn really should not have been able to attack that alone parry with Kylo Ren. Yet both Finn and Rey did.

 

As for Luke's training, there was plenty of canon on this, but once again the movie made most of it moot. In the old Star Wars universe both the Rebels and the Empire were running academies and I guest the best term would be pre acadamy training. Piloting in the Star Wars universe is like driving a car here on earth. Almost everyone can, but few can do it very very well.

 

I'm going to be careful here, Luke received weeks of training with Yoda before he went to the Cloud City. The dialogue that matters is Han telling Leia it is far but he thinks they can make it. They were running on sublight engines. I get very upset when people write or watch scifi and they don't get the relationship between faster than light travel and sublight travel. After Yoda died Luke also took a partial training manual that Yoda had. But the most important thing to know about Luke's training is that he built his own lightsaber. Very important to the Jedi, at least in the old canon.

 

I have read 13 trilogies based on Star wars, which isn't that many considering how many there are. In short there could have been plenty of strong female characters who could have and probably should have helmed the reboot. Mara Jade or perhaps a female child of Luke's or Leia, who had some considerable training. The movie just made a mockery of the Jedi lore, Sith lore, dark Jedi lore and most importantly a joke out of what it takes to do battle with trained persons. But mileage does vary.