Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[KatWay]

The Nazi imagery was my least favourite part of the film. We already knew the Empire (First Order) was evil, no need to link them with Nazis. They went without it in the original trilogy, do they think audiences got significantly dumber in the meantime? Won't understand they're evil unless they're also Nazis? It's cheap and doesn't add anything to it, considering they have nothing else to do with Nazi ideology, aside from wanting to rule the galaxy like every bad guy ever.

 

With Hydra's Nazi imagery in the Marvel films I'm getting Nazi fatigue in Hollywood blockbusters. At least in the Hunger Games, the bad guys were allowed to be bad guys without also being Nazis.

[TVSpectator]

The Nazi imagery was my least favourite part of the film. We already knew the Empire (First Order) was evil, no need to link them with Nazis. They went without it in the original trilogy, do they think audiences got significantly dumber in the meantime? Won't understand they're evil unless they're also Nazis? It's cheap and doesn't add anything to it, considering they have nothing else to do with Nazi ideology, aside from wanting to rule the galaxy like every bad guy ever.

 

With Hydra's Nazi imagery in the Marvel films I'm getting Nazi fatigue in Hollywood blockbusters. At least in the Hunger Games, the bad guys were allowed to be bad guys without also being Nazis.

Yeah, the Nazis references were all over the place but I feel that since that the original trilogy basically also used Nazis references it isn't that bad (but in this film it's just more overt).

As with the government in the Hunger Games I always kind of associated that type of government with North Korea's government.

[spaulding]

My biggest complaint about the movie is the not-happily-ever-after with Leia and Han.  C'mon, their relationship was magnetic in ESB.  Han could still be the bad boy scoundrel who is happily married to Leia.

 

Leia needed a better wardrobe.  She looked like any other mom who's shopping the clearance racks at Kohl's. 

 

Kylo Ren is going through his teenage angst years.  When he found out that Rey escaped his futuristic inversion table, he threw a tantrum and destroyed it.  You know, Darth Vader would never had done that.  Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader.

 

No redemption for Kylo Ren.  I want to see how dark the Dark Side is. 

 

Best character of the movie: The Millennium Falcon.

 

Death Star 3.0 destroys a planet, and there's no reference to Alderaan.  I was disappointed.

 

I was surprised that Han Solo had a big role in this movie.  At least Harrison Ford got his wish and got Han killed.  Lately, Ford has been saying that he wanted Han to die a hero's death.  But I always thought that Ford didn't like the character, that it was a flimsy character.  Seems like revisionist history.  Ford hasn't had a hit or has been in a good movie in years, and he would if he sucked it up to reprise the beloved Han Solo character.

 

Rey and Finn should stay friends.  They have a fun buddy relationship.  Besides, romance always dies in the SW galaxy. 

[nobodyyoucare]

 

ut I always thought that Ford didn't like the character, that it was a flimsy character.

He doesn't. They had to pay him a fortune 76 times the price of the other highest paid actor or actress in the film to get him to come back and the condition was he had to die so no other star wars material where he plays the role.

[Danny Franks]

My biggest complaint about the movie is the not-happily-ever-after with Leia and Han.  C'mon, their relationship was magnetic in ESB.  Han could still be the bad boy scoundrel who is happily married to Leia.

 

See, I found it completely unsurprising that Han and Leia had had a rocky time of it. Their romance was always spiky and fuelled by their passions. They were never going to be that happily ever after couple, because they were both stubborn and strong willed. Han would have spent a lot of time sleeping on the couch, and that's even without the stress of their bad seed son.

 

You could see that the love was still there, in their reunion scene. And while this estrangement was apparently a long one, I don't doubt that there were times in the past where they fought and Han stormed off to scoundrel it up somewhere with Chewie, only to come back and for them to make up enthusiastically.

[JessePinkman]

Can we get a movie of that? Han and Leia going on adventures while trying to raise Ben, with Chewie shaking his head in the background.

 

Saw the movie for the 4th (!) time and it's still just as enjoyable. I watched it with a SW virgin (he called Darth Vader "Dark Vader"). It's just so...joyful! You can feel the amount of care that was put into every scene, it's a beautifully shot film that presents a fully realized world. By care I mean small things like Finn giving Rey his jacket because they're on an ice planet and the movie not making a *thing* about it, we also see Finn adjusting his jacket later on to let us know that she gave it back to him and it wasn't some editing mistake. Little meaningless things that like mean a lot to me. I'm weird.

 

I don't currently have a blue-ray player but I'm considering buying one JUST so I can own this.

[Danny Franks]

I think a second viewing is essential, for anyone who enjoyed the movie. I already said that I was able to enjoy the different moments so much more, on a second viewing, and another one that springs to mind is the sheer joy of that "garbage" ship that Rey dismisses being revealed. It was such a great moment the first time around. It's just a tossed off bit of dialogue that seems to have no purpose other than to give them a bickering moment, and then you cheer when you see the ship they were talking about. Whoever came up with that sequence should be given all the awards. It's just a consummate moment that could only be thought up by someone who loves Star Wars as much as any fan.

 

And there are the little details like that you mention with Finn's jacket, which you don't pick up the first time around. I missed Rey's X-Wing pilot doll, on the first viewing, and really enjoyed seeing it the second time I watched. And it got me thinking about whether that image is just a popular 'heroic figure' for people now, thanks to the Rebellion, or whether Rey has a specific memory of someone dressed like that....

 

I will definitely be getting this movie on blu-ray. I'm even thinking I might buy a bigger television to watch it on.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Danny Franks

[SmithW6079]

Some funny Twitters:

Emo Kylo Ren:

https://mobile.twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en

Very Lonely Luke:

https://mobile.twitter.com/VeryLonelyLuke

[benteen]

Bad Father Han Solo is another Twitter.

 

"Your name is BEN.  We named the dog Kylo."

 

"And for best son, the winner is...Poe Dameron."

 

https://twitter.com/badfatherhan

 

Reading some of the tie-in books, the novelization and seeing it onscreen, I find myself really enjoying everything Rey on Jakku.

Edited January 11, 2016 by benteen

[spaulding]

He doesn't. They had to pay him a fortune 76 times the price of the other highest paid actor or actress in the film to get him to come back and the condition was he had to die so no other star wars material where he plays the role.

 

I can't help but think that Harrison Ford is kind of a prick.  I don't think that Han Solo was a flimsy character.  He had character depth in TFA as he tried to bring back his son. 

 

And yet Ford is still open to another Indiana Jones film.  After the crap that was The Crystal Skull.

 

See, I found it completely unsurprising that Han and Leia had had a rocky time of it. Their romance was always spiky and fuelled by their passions. They were never going to be that happily ever after couple, because they were both stubborn and strong willed. Han would have spent a lot of time sleeping on the couch, and that's even without the stress of their bad seed son.

 

You could see that the love was still there, in their reunion scene. And while this estrangement was apparently a long one, I don't doubt that there were times in the past where they fought and Han stormed off to scoundrel it up somewhere with Chewie, only to come back and for them to make up enthusiastically.

 

I don't think I object to the hot/cold relationship between them.  I did get the impression that they would repeatedly fight and make up.  But their last fight really separated them.  Maybe for a couple of decades.

 

After ROTJ, there was a huge celebration with the defeat of the Empire. 

 

It was assumed that there would be peace in the galaxy.  A happily ever after.  With TFA, it's not true.  Nobody's freakin' happy.  Nothing has changed.  There's still an epic struggle.

 

At the very least, I would have liked a happily ever after somewhere in the galaxy.  I wanted a happily ever after between Han and Leia.  I'll accept a fight/make up relationship, but not a separation that keeps them apart for years or decades. 

 

I blame Harrison Ford for crapping on my dreams.

 

Some funny Twitters:

Emo Kylo Ren:

https://mobile.twitt...kylor3n?lang=en

Very Lonely Luke:

https://mobile.twitt.../VeryLonelyLuke

Bad Father Han Solo is another Twitter.

 

I love the parady accounts.  They're the only fun stuff in a depressing SW galaxy.

Edited January 11, 2016 by spaulding

[Danny Franks]

I don't think I object to the hot/cold relationship between them.  I did get the impression that they would repeatedly fight and make up.  But their last fight really separated them.  Maybe for a couple of decades.

 

It wasn't a couple of decades, though. Thirty years have passed since ROTJ, in which time Han and Leia married and had a son, and Luke founded a Jedi academy and began to train students. Kylo Ren is depicted as what appears to be a full grown man when he turned on Luke, and can't be any older than his late twenties now. So at most, I'd say it's been a few years since he turned against Luke, and the split between Leia and Han happened after that.

 

So that means they had perhaps twenty years of happiness in the manner I described (or any other manner) before things went badly wrong.

[stealinghome]

I can't help but think that Harrison Ford is kind of a prick.  I don't think that Han Solo was a flimsy character.  He had character depth in TFA as he tried to bring back his son.

Isn't the narrative that Ford liked Han through ESB but cooled off between ESB and RotJ? That's what the stuff I've been reading suggests anyway.

[Danny Franks]

Isn't the narrative that Ford liked Han through ESB but cooled off between ESB and RotJ? That's what the stuff I've been reading suggests anyway.

 

In terms of his career, that would make some sense. Between ESB and RotJ, he made Raiders of the Lost Ark and Bladerunner. Two movies that allowed him to stretch his talents in new ways. I think Indiana Jones is probably closer to his heart because he was the outright star of those movies, and Indy had an irreverent air that Han didn't quite match. I don't know what he thinks about Bladerunner, or which version of it he might like best.

 

From what people have said about George Lucas, making movies with him can't have been much fun. Harrison has been more open about that than other people, so I would think that part of that frustration with the process got transferred to the character. Even without Lucas directing ESB and RotJ, he may have just felt like he wanted to move on to other things.

[Joe]

So I saw it for the fifth time today. Still loved it, still planning to go for number six. However, I think I was wrong. There's a creature in Maz's bar that I initially thought was a Lamproid, I now think it was something else. This one doesn't seem to have any limbs. My second guess was Anacondan, but that doesn't look right either. The listing for reptilian sentient species has 140 entries, even I'm not nitpicky enough to go through all of them. Maybe it was a fat Anacondan. Or maybe some designer just thought 'let's chuck a large snake in there' without going to Wookieepedia first.

 

Also, I thought I saw a Shistaneven. But I've learned my lesson, I'm not going to state it outright. :)

 

But on the subject of Maz's bar, Han cautions Rey & Fin not to stare at any of it. The first time, I intially thought he meant Maz herself, that she was some crazy creature. That would have been interesting. Ah well.

[VCRTracking]

Isn't the narrative that Ford liked Han through ESB but cooled off between ESB and RotJ? That's what the stuff I've been reading suggests anyway.

 

In terms of his career, that would make some sense. Between ESB and RotJ, he made Raiders of the Lost Ark and Bladerunner. Two movies that allowed him to stretch his talents in new ways. I think Indiana Jones is probably closer to his heart because he was the outright star of those movies, and Indy had an irreverent air that Han didn't quite match. I don't know what he thinks about Bladerunner, or which version of it he might like best.

 

From what people have said about George Lucas, making movies with him can't have been much fun. Harrison has been more open about that than other people, so I would think that part of that frustration with the process got transferred to the character. Even without Lucas directing ESB and RotJ, he may have just felt like he wanted to move on to other things.

 

 

But he still worked with Lucas in three more Indiana Jones movies and even appeared in an episode of  the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles.

 

From reading interviews from the 80s to today my feeling is Han Solo is closer to Harrison's character than he would have liked to admit and that Indiana Jones, being an archaeology professor was more scholarly and intellectual was someone Ford would like to be. Also Harrison Ford always likes adding his own ideas to any of his characters("Jack Ryan would eat his meal like this" "Richard Kimble would do this") and they're all related to the real world but everything about Han is fantastical stuff made up by George Lucas.

 

One of my favorite bits is the Resistance doctor tending to Chewie's wounds talking to him like a school nurse to a little kid: "That sounds so scary." "You must be soooo brave!"

 

At the very least, I would have liked a happily ever after somewhere in the galaxy.  I wanted a happily ever after between Han and Leia.  I'll accept a fight/make up relationship, but not a separation that keeps them apart for years or decades.

 

I blame Harrison Ford for crapping on my dreams.

 

Michael Arndt, who wrote the original treatments and worked on the early script said he had written that Han and Leia have a happier ending but Abrams felt it would be better for the movie if Han died:

 

Arndt: I had thought Han’s story and Leia’s story was just about them coming back together. At the end of the movie they would have reconciled and gotten over their differences. And you would have said, ‘Okay, bad stuff happened, but at least they’re back together again.  J.J. rightly asked, ‘What is Han doing in this movie?’ If we’re not going to have something important and irreversible happen to him, then he kind of feels like luggage. He feels like this great, sexy piece of luggage you have in your movie. But he’s not really evolving. He’s not really pushing the story forward.”

Abrams:“It’s this massive tradeoff.  How can we possibly do that!? But… if we hadn’t done that, the movie wouldn’t have any guts at all. It felt very dangerous.”

Edited January 12, 2016 by VCRTracking

[SNeaker]

As far as I'm concerned, Han and Leia did get back together. I mean...then he died. Tragically. But to me the way they were talking about bringing their son "home" and the hug and all that was essentially their getting back together either way. Even if the movie never said it. Even if Han and Leia wouldn't have said it out loud, to me that was it. If Han had failed but still survived, he'd have gone back to Leia and helped with the resistance.

 

That's my head canon, and I'm sticking to it.

[anna0852]

You're not the only one with that head cannon.

[Danny Franks]

But he still worked with Lucas in three more Indiana Jones movies and even appeared in an episode of  the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles.

 

 

Where Lucas was a producer and screenwriter, but the director was Steven Spielberg, who most actors love working with. I'm guessing that Harrison had a lot more freedom to offer input and change things with Spielberg than he did with Lucas at the helm.

 

But that's a very interesting point about Han being too similar to Harrison himself. From what I know of Harrison Ford, that's probably not far from the truth at all. And he did pursue some roles afterwards that were very different from Han Solo. Not just with Indiana Jones, but with Witness, The Mosquito Coast, Frantic, Working Girl, Regarding Henry. He definitely distanced himself from that stereotype.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Han and Leia did get back together. I mean...then he died. Tragically. But to me the way they were talking about bringing their son "home" and the hug and all that was essentially their getting back together either way. Even if the movie never said it. Even if Han and Leia wouldn't have said it out loud, to me that was it. If Han had failed but still survived, he'd have gone back to Leia and helped with the resistance.

 

 

That's a very fair conclusion to draw, I reckon. They'd had the conversation about why they split, and the hug before Han left. I agree he'd have gone back to Leia after Starkiller Base. Chewie and Maz and others were already nagging him about it being time to go "home", and he knew they were right.

 

Abrams:“It’s this massive tradeoff.  How can we possibly do that!? But… if we hadn’t done that, the movie wouldn’t have any guts at all. It felt very dangerous.”

 

 

I like this sentiment. While it felt fairly predictable in hindsight, taking into account Harrison's attitude to the franchise and the storyline needing to devote its narrative energies to the new generation of characters, it's still a hell of a ballsy move to kill the franchise's (arguably) most beloved character. One that a lot of filmmakers would not have taken.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Danny Franks

[Sakura12]

They can go real fanficy by making Rey both a Kenobi and a Skywalker. Luke marries/hooks up with a relative of Obi Wan. 

[DollEyes]

On another note, Oscar Isaac won the Golden Globe for Best Actor in a Limited Series for Show Me A Hero, which proves that when it comes to Poe Dameron, TPTB picked a man who can act as great as he looks.

[Perfect Xero]

After seeing it a second time I noticed that the way that Rey kills the Rathar by bringing the door down on it is an allusion to how Luke killed the Rancor in Jedi.

 

I found it more enjoyable on second viewing because I didn't spend most of the movie wondering when/how Han, Chewie, Leia, Luke, R2, and 3PO would show up.

[methodwriter85]

I get that this happens, but seriously, the movie's been out less than a month- how are there already obsessed  Reylo girls? Funny and the lol'z.

 

I honestly kept thinking they're totally going to set up a triangle with Rey, Poe, and Finn, but honestly, I kind of want Rey to either turn out to be a lesbian, or just not very interested in dating because she's busy saving the galaxy.

Edited January 13, 2016 by methodwriter85

[FurryFury]

I totally get Reylo. In fact, during the mind torture scene, I've had this thought immediately - that it's going to be a thing in the fandom. I've seen enough TV shows, this kind of dynamic is often popular. I don't mean I ship it or anything, but I understand the interest. I'm definitely intrigued by this relationship, whether adversarial, familial or any other. It just has the promise of psychological complexity and moral ambiguousness that no other relationships have ATM (well, maybe Luke/Kylo or even Luke/Leia depending on what happened in the interim, but we have no idea about what Luke's been up to - and as a Luke fan, it frustrates me to no end). Kylo/Han could also be interesting, but it wasn't explored fully enough (I really hope he'll get a scene with his mother though, and she kicks his ass).

 

Somebody up in the thread mentioned Zutara, and yeah, I kinda see the parallels. Only, you know, Zuko wasn't a murderer. And the canon romances written by Bryke somehow manage to be so awful (except Sukka), so as a Zutarian, I'm honestly relieved it never happened on show. There are enough good fanfics.

 

Overall, they'll probably go the Rey/Finn way... which is OK, I guess, but not terribly compelling. I liked them a lot as friends, though.

[Danny Franks]

I get that this happens, but seriously, the movie's been out less than a month- how are there already obsessed  Reylo girls? Funny and the lol'z.

 

Because all it takes is seeing the villain's tortured, pasty face and moist eyes, and some girls swoon all over the damned place? The dom/sub undertones of that scene play right into the minds of the sort of people who think 50 Shades of Grey is sexy or romantic, I guess.

 

It's hilarious that someone said the fangirls were flipping their shit over Kylo carrying Rey "bridal style". Because, you know, it's totally bridal except for the fact he assaulted her, knocked her unconscious and kidnapped her, with the intention of torturing information out of her, while his men were killing innocent bystanders. Soooo hot, OMG!1!! As long as Star Wars is written by grown ups, I don't think there's much danger of this thing ever really being a thing, except in the hormonally addled minds of these 'shippers.

 

I don't even think it's a 'relationship' in adversarial terms. Rey kicked his ass. She's not confused or intimidated or unnerved by him. She flat out whupped him, and that's even without being trained. Kylo Ren is the one with enough self-hatred and insecurities to sink a Star Destroyer, and all of that is turned inward on himself, which is why he couldn't win that fight. Rey can go around the galaxy being awesome and becoming a Jedi while he self-flagellates in his room. If he manages to grow up a bit, then maybe then we can talk about them being adversaries.

 

What I'd love is if Gugu Mbatha-Raw, who has been cast in Episode VIII, is not a love interest for Finn (which everyone assumes because they have similar skin colour) but for Rey. They've already confounded people by producing a movie that's headlined by a woman and a black man, so why not make one of them gay too? And if not gay, then just a nice platonic friendship that doesn't involved dudes.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Danny Franks

[Skyline]

Adam Driver's SNL promo

[VCRTracking]

The Force Awakens VFX reel.

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3mazzy_star-wars-the-force-awakens-vfx-reel-with-new-full-scenes-2015-oscars-720p-full-hd_music

 

I like that Lupita and Daisy acted together in the scene where Maz tells Rey the lightsaber is calling out to her.

[Jediknight]

Because all it takes is seeing the villain's tortured, pasty face and moist eyes, and some girls swoon all over the damned place? The dom/sub undertones of that scene play right into the minds of the sort of people who think 50 Shades of Grey is sexy or romantic, I guess.

 

It's hilarious that someone said the fangirls were flipping their shit over Kylo carrying Rey "bridal style". Because, you know, it's totally bridal except for the fact he assaulted her, knocked her unconscious and kidnapped her, with the intention of torturing information out of her, while his men were killing innocent bystanders. Soooo hot, OMG!1!! As long as Star Wars is written by grown ups, I don't think there's much danger of this thing ever really being a thing, except in the hormonally addled minds of these 'shippers.

I hope they don't fall for that.  I hope they don't try to make excuses for why Kylo is evil, like he had a bad family life.  If they try to say he had a bad family life, that would just nuke the characters of Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie, Lando, 3PO, and R2, and if you thought the prequel and Jar Jar backlash was bad, that would be a walk in the park compared to the outcry over destroying those characters.  There's no way he didn't have plenty of love and support growing up with them as family.

 

He's the one that made the decision to worship Darth Vader, and follow in his footsteps.  He doesn't want to follow the Anakin that blew up the droid ship and saved Naboo, he doesn't want to follow the Anakin that fought in the Clone Wars and saved countless lives, and he doesn't want to follow the Vader that killed the Emperor.  He wants to follow the Vader that purged the Jedi, murdered children, stood aside as Alderaan was blown up, tortured his own daughter (Kylo's mother), cut off Luke's hand, and helped the Empire wipe out opposition.  They won't lose sight of that, and there will be no redemption for Kylo, and no romance for him and Rey.

 

They won't give him that, when they've already established that Rey and Finn didn't exactly grow up under the best of circumstances, and they're good, they've risen above everything.  Hell, even Poe faced tragedy with his mother dying when he was 8.

[Mars477]

I just found that out. That really fucking annoys me, because I liked Shara. I think I would have much preferred finding out that she taught fighter cadets at the Republic Naval Acadmy at Kuat or something.

[VCRTracking]

Because all it takes is seeing the villain's tortured, pasty face and moist eyes, and some girls swoon all over the damned place?

 

 

The VFX reel I posted does show the scene where Kylo Ren is talking to Snoke and they're talking about Han Solo and Ren says he "means nothing" to him; in the movie he has his mask on but when they filmed it he was unmasked and they later digitally superimposed the mask on. Adam Driver's eyes looked super moist and he really looked vulnerable like he didn't mean it.

[spaulding]

It wasn't a couple of decades, though. Thirty years have passed since ROTJ, in which time Han and Leia married and had a son, and Luke founded a Jedi academy and began to train students. Kylo Ren is depicted as what appears to be a full grown man when he turned on Luke, and can't be any older than his late twenties now. So at most, I'd say it's been a few years since he turned against Luke, and the split between Leia and Han happened after that.

 

I wasn't sure how long the last estrangement was.  I hope it was only a few years.  The "hugging it out" was still bittersweet because nobody is ever happy in this galaxy. 

 

He's the one that made the decision to worship Darth Vader, and follow in his footsteps.  He doesn't want to follow the Anakin that blew up the droid ship and saved Naboo, he doesn't want to follow the Anakin that fought in the Clone Wars and saved countless lives, and he doesn't want to follow the Vader that killed the Emperor.

 

I didn't get that.  Does Kylo Ren not know Vader's entire history?  Vader turning on the emperor and hugging it out with Luke would seem weak.

 

I totally get Reylo. In fact, during the mind torture scene, I've had this thought immediately - that it's going to be a thing in the fandom. I've seen enough TV shows, this kind of dynamic is often popular. I don't mean I ship it or anything, but I understand the interest.

 

Because all it takes is seeing the villain's tortured, pasty face and moist eyes, and some girls swoon all over the damned place? The dom/sub undertones of that scene play right into the minds of the sort of people who think 50 Shades of Grey is sexy or romantic, I guess.

 

It's hilarious that someone said the fangirls were flipping their shit over Kylo carrying Rey "bridal style". Because, you know, it's totally bridal except for the fact he assaulted her, knocked her unconscious and kidnapped her, with the intention of torturing information out of her, while his men were killing innocent bystanders.

 

That shipping is absolutely horrific.  If tween girls are nuts over Reylo, there's something wrong with them.  He head a frickin' light saber to her face.

[Skyline]

From Time Magazine review:

[DollEyes]

 The Oscar noms are out & it's good news, bad news. The good news: it  got several technical nominations. The bad news: it wasn't nominated for Best Picture.

Edited January 14, 2016 by DollEyes

[SeanC]

I personally don't think it warranted a Picture nomination, much as I enjoyed it (and I saw it three times).

[Browncoat]

I agree, Sean.  I loved it (and also saw it three times), but it isn't surprising that it didn't get noms in anything other than technical/music categories.  I would have been surprised if it hadn't gotten the noms it did.

[Zuleikha]

If tween girls are nuts over Reylo, there's something wrong with them.

I think there's something wrong with someone seriously advocating for Reylo to become canon because it's likely to be incestuous and even if it weren't, it wouldn't fit with the story on screen. So it's both silly and doomed to failure.

 

But I don't think there's anything wrong with people shipping Reylo as a crack ship or trash ship. There's a lot of intense emotion that makes for good fanvids, fanart, and fanfic, and it's otherwise just a classic bad boy redemption story. That's a power fantasy when you get to its core. I've certainly shipped my fair share of similar couples *cough*Spuffy*cough*, and there was nothing wrong with me nor did I ever once try to redeem a bad boy with my love in real life.

[SeanC]

Yeah, I don't see that people who like to crackship are in any sense a problem. There are a zillion personal fantasies out there, most ultimately based simply on thinking a certain performer is attractive.

[lion10]

That fucking TIME magazine is describing Kyle/Rey's interaction as 'sexual energy' already tells you that this is a reaction that isn't exclusive to 'personal' fantasies. Media does not exist in a vacuum. Teen girls finding the heroine's torturer/kidnapper 'romantic' because he is torturing and kidnapping her are products of and consumers of society's vicious rape culture cycle. 

 

And that's the misogynistic side of the coin. Then the racist side of the coin is how so many people are anti-Rey/Finn even though their relationship is clearly written as the heart of the story. 

 

It's still worthy of derision.  If you're past the age of 15 and you genuinely idolize that type of abusive menacing guy, on some level you get what you get.  By that age you should know better, no matter what society says.

[SeanC]

It's hardly exclusive to male villains.

[nobodyyoucare]

 

Teen girls finding the heroine's torturer/kidnapper 'romantic' because he is torturing and kidnapping her are products of and consumers of society's vicious rape culture cycle.

Actually you can blame Twilight for this. 50 Shades of Gray was Twilight fan fiction originally. 

Hell I wish the fans of that dreck would rather look up the works of Marqui De Sade at least he could write. 

[lion10]

It's hardly exclusive to male villains.

Isn't it? I feel like most of the time the fans clamoring for a redemption of an evil character or writing Tumblr meta about how the character is so misunderstood are female. To borrow an example for my own fandom, it's not men screaming that Aria and Ezra get together.

Men as a group have their own messed relationship goals but men tend not to buy into the whole "my love will change him" bullshit.

[SeanC]

Actually you can blame Twilight for this. 

Twilight was just the latest, and particularly inarticulate, version of a longtime trend.  Hell, the whole "sexy vampire" trend is based on it (and vampires pretty much always represented the erotic, whether coded or not).

 

Isn't it? I feel like most of the time the fans clamoring for a redemption of an evil character or writing Tumblr meta about how the character is so misunderstood are female. To borrow an example for my own fandom, it's not men screaming that Aria and Ezra get together.

You're citing an actual canon ship that has support from the writers, which doesn't really compare, to begin with.  There are tons of female villains who attract huge male fanbases who think they're sexy and would rather the hero pursue said character over a canon love interest.  Fanfic is mostly written by women, so it doesn't show up there as much.  It's also quite plentiful in slash and femslash pairings, so it's not unique to male villain/female hero, by any means.

[HeySandyStrange]

 

It's hardly exclusive to male villains.

 

I can't think of many female villains who get romanticized like a Loki or Kylo Ren, though. Not talking about the "bitch with a secret heart of gold" but actual female villains who lie, scheme, torture, abuse or kill. Certainly the heroic good guy isn't supposed to heal their evil hearts with pure love, he is supposed to kick their evil Femme Fatale asses.   Female villains usually get their heads on the chopping block, in the end.

 

 

That fucking TIME magazine is describing Kyle/Rey's interaction as 'sexual energy' already tells you that this is a reaction that isn't exclusive to 'personal' fantasies.

 

Personally I saw a very uncomfortable/unnerved Rey facing a guy who probably hasn't had any normal social interaction in anywhere between 10-15 years. I'm guessing the biggest reason Ren was so fixated on Rey was because she had the Force. It is probably one of the few things he values and respects in anyone.

[SeanC]

I can't think of many female villains who get romanticized like a Loki or Kylo Ren, though. Not talking about the "bitch with a secret heart of gold" but actual female villains who lie, scheme, torture, abuse or kill.

The Baroness from G.I. Joe would be just one of many examples (so much so that the movie adaptation rather unconvincingly decided she should be the female lead and become a good guy).

Edited January 15, 2016 by SeanC

[lion10]

There are tons of female villains who attract huge male fanbases who think they're sexy and would rather the hero pursue said character over a canon love interest. Fanfic is mostly written by women, so it doesn't show up there as much. It's also quite plentiful in slash and femslash pairings, so it's not unique to male villain/female hero, by any means.

What female villains can you think of that men favor so much compared to canon love interests. Because the only people I see doing this kind of thing with male characters are female fans.

[Zuleikha]

Hell I wish the fans of that dreck would rather look up the works of Marqui De Sade at least he could write.

I disagree! Maybe I had a bad translation, but I found Sade's writings both boring and non-sexy.

 

I can't think of many female villains who get romanticized like a Loki or Kylo Ren, though. Not talking about the "bitch with a secret heart of gold" but actual female villains who lie, scheme, torture, abuse or kill.

 

Lilah/Wesley were a popular ship on Angel, apparently way more than the writers ever expected. Lilah was a genuine villain who murdered, lied, and schemed, and was never redeemed. Regina on Once Upon the Time isn't connected to a relationship, but she's an example of a female villain who fans loved (although she arguably has a heart of gold, she also arguably doesn't and she certainly lied, tortured, killed, etc.)  This is an old one, but there was a Romeo/Juliet romance on G.I. Joe with a female villain/male hero. Female villains do tend to end up tragically dead in canon rather than married and happily ever after, but I don't expect Loki or Kylo Ren to end up with a happy ever after in canon either!

[nobodyyoucare]

 

Twilight was just the latest, and particularly inarticulate, version of a longtime trend.  Hell, the whole "sexy vampire" trend is based on it (and vampires pretty much always represented the erotic, whether coded or not).

Actually vampires as being erotic is fairly recent. Prior to Anne Rice vampires were thought to be disgusting, ugly, deformed. In fact most vampire fiction prior to Anne Rice that I can recall had male vampires being incapable of sex. Female vampires could fake it. 

[Emily Thrace]

Isn't it? I feel like most of the time the fans clamoring for a redemption of an evil character or writing Tumblr meta about how the character is so misunderstood are female. To borrow an example for my own fandom, it's not men screaming that Aria and Ezra get together.

Men as a group have their own messed relationship goals but men tend not to buy into the whole "my love will change him" bullshit.

 

Saffron from Firefly was an antagonist and is one of the most popular characters and is frequently shipped with Mal. Garak is one a total Star Trek fan favorite (He has beaten several main character from other series in polls) and definitely not a nice guy. Gul Dukat was fascist dictator but also one of DS9's favorite characters. The writers even wanted to redeem him and set him up with KIra at one point. Both The Expanse and Defiance from Skiffy have characters have characters who committed atrocities and earned the nickname "The Butcher" in the past but are presented as antagonists in the shows present. People like a good redemption story it doesn't matter what the person did it just matters how well the redemption is sold.

 

Of course I also feel the need to point out the Han Solo is perhaps one of the best known examples of All Girl Want Bad Boys around. Luke was probably supposed to get the girl in the end but Han became more popular. Largely because Han was such Bad Boy himself. I think there definitely an argument to be made that Rylo fans are just taking their cue from the original trilogy.

 

As to why Girls want bad boys some have suggested its actually instinctive behavior. A lot of typical bad boy traits like aggression. defiance and impulsiveness also made for a dominant male in caveman times and girls respond to that without realizing why their doing so. That's also probably why domination plays such big role in some examples of this type of relationships.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Emily Thrace

[stealinghome]

Of course I also feel the need to point out the Han Solo is perhaps one of the best known examples of All Girl Want Bad Boys around. Luke was probably supposed to get the girl in the end but Han became more popular. Largely because Han was such Bad Boy himself. I think there definitely an argument to be made that Rylo fans are just taking their cue from the original trilogy.

Can't agree with this comparison, it's not even close. Han isn't a mass murderer who also killed his father. There's Bad Boy then there's Super Freaking Evil. Han was a Bad Boy. Ren is Super Freaking Evil.

 

Rey/Kylo Ren would be far more analogous to Leia/Darth Vader if we wanted to put it in OT terms...which, even aside from the incest issues, never even came close to happening. 'Cause Darth Vader was Super Freaking Evil.

[nobodyyoucare]

 

Garak is one a total Star Trek fan favorite (He has beaten several main character from other series in polls) and definitely not a nice guy. Gul Dukat was fascist dictator but also one of DS9's favorite characters. The writers even wanted to redeem him and set him up with KIra at one point.

Garak while a spy/assassain actually if you read his novel that serves as his bio he is actually a decent guy. Every person he killed was pretty nasty or while appearing to be decent was responsible for a lot of evil things and he refused to torture certain people because they were either innocent or not evil. He is very ambiguous but he isn't evil and he will do what is in his best interests or the interest of his people. 

 

Actually it wasn't Gul Dukat who got redeemed it was Legate Damar. Gul Dukat was interested in Kira because he had her mother as his concubine. 

[nobodyyoucare]

 

Han was a Bad Boy

Loveable rogue I think is the correct term.

 

Han did have a code of ethics and wasn't a killer unless he had to kill. He shot Greedo first because Greedo was A trying to rob him at blaster point, B kept ignoring Han's attempt to defuse the situation and walk away. C threatening to kidnap Han. Any self defense scholar would tell you in every which way Han was justified in shooting first.