S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[RedheadZombie]

I think suggesting that Dany should stay and defend herself, is as silly as expecting the POTUS to wear a holster and gun, and instead of letting the secret service drag/push him to safety, to stay and fight. "Wait! Hold up fellas. I've been doing a lot of target practice - I've got this one." Even our two cowboy presidents didn't go that far.

The leader of a country is always evacuated post haste. Dany got the hell out of dodge because she was their ultimate target, and because Drogon was in danger of being killed, and he didn't seem to be willing to leave without her.

Jon Snow fights on the battle lines, because he's a trained soldier. He personally executed Slynt, because he was specifically taught by Ned Stark that that's what an honorable man does. Dany watching that boy's execution was her own way of following that rule. Of course she didn't want to witness it, but if you're going to give the order, you should be present to observe it.

I don't think it's arrogance that makes Stannis believe he's the true king. It's called divine right, and not too long ago, the British Royal Family still believed that they were ordained by God. For Stannis to refuse the throne, he would be denying his responsibility, his destiny, and his god. I hate what he did, and I didn't enjoy the story line, but I realize it was the ultimate sacrifice. He loved his daughter, but she would have died anyway - of starvation. It's the life of many over the life of one. Anyway, I think the actor really conveyed how hard it was for him to hear her screams.

I'm micro analyzing the scene where Dany pulls the spear out of Drogon. He turns on her, and actually roars into her face, as if attempting to breathe fire on her. I know she's impervious to fire, but are her dragons incapable of dracaris on her? After he does it, he then seems to realize it's her, and they gaze into each other's eyes. "Oh, it's you mama. Can you hurry up and climb aboard before they tear even larger holes in my wings? And where in the hell are my brothers?"

Edited June 9, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[penelope79]

The problem with this show is there is no guarantee of justice for any of the atrocities committed.  There still hasn't been any justice for old Ned Stark after five long years.  Even when Joffrey died, it wasn't to bring justice for his crimes, it was for other personal and political reasons.  We may never see a satisfying comeuppance for Stannis and Mel.  Sansa might avenge her family by killing the Boltons, or she might just as end up a prisoner in her old home forever.

 

 

Enough with the Stannis hate.  The plot line, as someone noted upthread, is an old and honored one taken straight from Greek mythology: Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter Iphigenia for better weather.  If it works and Stannis takes Winterfell, kills Roose and Ramsay Bolton, and frees Sansa, will it have been worth it?  I cringed and cried at Shireen's death too - it was absolutely horrible, but I don't hate TV characters, because they're TV characters, after all.

 

And I really appreciate HBO for producing series that defy narrative conventions.  The Sopranos did this before the Games of Thrones.  We are so used to stories where there is resolution to the tale, where good conquers evil, where there is justice.  But life isn't like that - too often evil people prosper and never have to pay for their crimes (see Job), and good folk suffer needlessly and without any redemption or satisfaction.  Game of Thrones posits an cruel and indifferent world, and the writers and producers have the freedom to write without absolute regard to the audience's conventional desires.  This is the reason I've subscribed to HBO for many years - its productions are superior to most films that Hollywood makes these days.

 

Re: justice for bad people I'll probably say something a bit unpopular, but I disagree that in GoT there is any, or that there is no guarantee that they'll face consequences for their horrible actions. I'd say there is no guarantee that the victim of a certain atrocity directly gets an actual revenge, but it doesn't mean that the culprit won't have what he/she deserves, which in my opinion is quite realistic.

I guess we all have met mean people (luckily, we never run into some Ramsey, though!) who hurt us, even just in our feelings or in situations which were not as serious as the ones depicted in GoT. We felt defeated at the moment but months/years later we learnt that something happened to those people (they lost their money or their jobs and so on) which made us feel somehow vindicated. Call it "divine justice" or whatever you like.

I have no doubt that, by the end of the series/books, ALL the characters who committed awful actions will meet some justice. Of the people involved in Ned Stark's murder, IIRC, so far only Littlefinger is still around (and I'm sure he will be the last to bite the dust, because he's Littlefinger and, even though he's subtle, he's one of the biggest villains of the show, the one who set in motions the whole chain of events). Joffrey's death for me was quite satisfiyng, even though Olenna and Petyr were the killers and not, say, Arya or Sansa. As much as I miss Tywin as a character, he met an end he totally deserved (granted, this time around Tyrion directly carried out his revenge, but to be fair he never looked very happy afterwards). Both Roose and Ramsey Bolton will undoubtedly die, because they did too wrong to be endgame. They'll probably die killed by Stannis/Melisandre and not by Sansa, Jon or Arya (which, granted, would be more satisfying) but I'll not complain when it happens (as much as their end is full of pain and I'm quite positive about it :D). At the same time, I'm sure Brienne kills Stannis but even if she doesn't, even if, for instance, he dies because Melisandre runs out of royal blood and she finds out that Stannis is not The Chosen One, so he is expendable, after all... fine by me. At the very least, he had it coming.

Which, to be fair, is even more than what happens in everyday life.

Ok now, stop with the rant!

 

 

Maybe to prove that Stannis actually did agonize over the decision to sacrifice her?

When she was a baby and first came down with the disease, he could have done the "easy" thing by killing her then, or sending her off to live with the Stone Men. Instead he summoned every maester, every healer, every apothecary from the far corners of the world to try and save her. They stopped the disease and led her horribly disfigured, which in Westeros (and especially in noble circles) was a shameful burden on a family. He made those decisions because he loved her. We have to believe that he still does, and did, and that he genuinely feels like he's doing the right thing not just for his own ambitions for the crown, but for the greater good. 

 

And now I can't believe I just defended a guy who burned his child at the stake. What have you turned me into, Show? 

 

 

I agree with this. I hate what he did, but I think that at the very least it's been very far from being an easy decision to take, for him. At the beginning, when Melisandre suggested to sacrifice Shireen, he rejected the idea. Apparently, the circumstances after the fires induced him to decide otherwise. That said, it's unforgivable (on a side note, Stephen Dillan was AMAZING in that scene).

Anyway, maybe I missed it but can someone explain why did they have to kill Shireen instead of pull a Gendry (i.e. only using his blood)? It's because they had to win a battle and not just kill a couple of men or what?

 

This show isn't really that invested in "good." Even Ned, Sansa, Tyrion, Brienne, and Jon Snow have done a few things they are justifiably not proud of.

 

Which is quite realistic, too. :)

Edited June 9, 2015 by penelope79

[wayne67]

Well now that she knows how to A) ride a dragon and B) probably won't have as many people asking for her to compensate them for their livestock maybe she could learn how to shoot a bow or something. That way she could be regal and what not while shooting arrows from on top of a dragon...

[paigow]

still manages to fit into that fabulous dress!

A little known fact is that Dothraki were masters of sugar free, gluten free, nut free tasty treats!

[Conan Troutman]

The actress Gemma Whelan who plays Yara Greyjoy. on IMDb.com she was supposed to get air time the episode!! any answers or comments?

 

IMDb simply isn't reliable when it comes to unaired episodes. Sometimes their information is correct, sometimes they only get it half-right and sometimes it's entirely made up. I wouldn't be surprised to see a short appearance next episode though.

 

Oh yeah – the scene was short enough that it didn't bother me that much, but let me get this straight. The ships sailing back from Hardhome dropped off Jon Snow & the refugees... north of the Wall? With the ice & bullshit & nothing to hunt and also the enormous White Walker zombie mist death army skulking around? WHY

 

I guess Jon wanted to go the official way through Castle Black. In his mind, it's an official alliance now, so they shouldn't be snuck in through the back door.

They also had a nice head start on the WW due to traveling via ship, so I guess time wasn't that much of an issue.

 

I was also surprised at how easily Drogon was hurt. Dragon skin seems a lot more vulnerable than in other fictional universes. 

 

He's also very young and still relatively small for a dragon - remember that huge skull back from season 2 or 3 in KL? Drogon has a lot of growing up to do (and apparently they don't really ever stop growing) and his skin might also get thicker/harder. Plus he shouldn't really get so close and on the ground anyway, but he didn't get any (military) training yet so he doesn't know better.

 

YES!

 

I LOVE her! It's her story I'm most interested in, and I think EC does a fine, fine job. She's not wooden, she's playing a character who's reserved. The way she said "get him out of my sight" last week was full of emotion. And her resignation when she thought she was dying. The love on her face with drogon (who, remember, wouldn't be there! she's acting in a vacuum!)

 

I think she's terrific.

 

IA, I think it's another example of people confusing actor with character (Sansa and Jon are others that come to mind). One can certainly say Dany's acting is a bit wooden, as she's trying to play the part of a queen to her best idea of what a queen is supposed to present herself like in public, but doesn't have it down completely yet and isn't really comfortable because of it. She gets a lot more natural when she's only with her trusted people. You can see that nicely in last weeks scene with Tyrion - she was a bit uptight at first, but did lighten up considerably and even lean back in her chair when she decided he can be trusted. In addition to that, she does seem generally reserved, as you said. But Emilia does those subtle emotions very well.

[Freckledbruh]

Well now that she knows how to A) ride a dragon and B) probably won't have as many people asking for her to compensate them for their livestock maybe she could learn how to shoot a bow or something. That way she could be regal and what not while shooting arrows from on top of a dragon...

Why would somebody risk balancing on a dragon while shooting arrows when the dragon can breathe fire on your enemies? Makes no sense.

[terrymct]

I hate to say it, but I think Tyrion may be in over his head here. Dany seems to be teetering into madness.

 

The thing we'll be looking for now is whether her instability has been due to the loss of her trusted circle people one after another or if it's due to her mind going.  If she responds to Tyrion, it was the instability (and some inexperience thrown in) that was giving her issues.

I re-watched the episode and noticed something I missed the first time around. When Dany et al were in the middle of the arena surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy, it wasn't until she clasped Missandei's hand that she calmed down and appeared to focus and then closed her eyes (and presumably called for Drogon). I then remembered a previous episode when Dany was struggling with a decision and it wasn't until she talked to Missandei that she gained confidence and became more resolute. I kind of like the thought of Dany gaining strength through Missandei.  

 

I think it's because she's young and inexperienced as a ruler and traversing a shifting political landscape.  She's also lost most of the people she's trusted recently.

[Advance35]

I find Ramsey quite realistic, actually. I knew boys like him growing up. They are, thank God, quite rare, but Ramsey is much like Joffrey. There are plenty of serial killers who are a lot like Ramsey. I think people who like Ramsey are probably the same people who hate Sansa, Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Brienne, and find all of the "good" characters very dull and boring.

 

I agree to an extent.  I find Ramsay to be very realistic based on what we know of his background.   Young Men of the North seem to be taught to fight during adolesence, hence Robb Stark dispatching those Wildings in Season 1 and Jon Snow being the best of the New Recruits at The Wall.   And because of whom his father is, Ramsay has a natural aptitude for Sadism.   Roose seems to revel in the eviceration of people on an emotional level (the way he got Catelyn reminicing about Ned before the Red Wedding was especially cruel, as were his taunts to Jaimie about Cersei and her Children after Blackwater).

 

Ramsay revels in the psychological/emotional AND physical suffering he can inflict.   He's a shark and he's got a natural nose for blood in most situations.  I don't think he could out-scheme Olenna, Tywin, LF, Varys, but he has an animal cunning that makes him dangerous to everyone.    And what he did to Theon shows a level of strategy that's chillingly clinical and sadistic.   I get the impression he revels/prefers causing physical suffering but when he's restrained he'll settle for causing psychological/emotional damage.

 

He didn't challenge Stannis to open combat (though I think he could hold his own in that regard like any other Northerner), he engaged in Gorilla Warfare.  Sneaking into Stannis's camp while in terrain he and his men were more familiar with and took out Stannis's fuel for his army (and inadvertently jumpstarting a sequence of events that would ultimately destroy Stannis).   Ramsay is very good at sabatoge.  That's believable.

 

Chinks in his armor include his Father's outlook in regards to him and his birth status as illegitamit.   He didn't spend his life being coddled like Joffrey, of course he'll be a harder individual in terms of physicallity and being heartless.

 

I like Ramsay as a villain but I also love all the characters mentioned in the above quote with the exception of Brienne, I think they've had the most fascinating journeys.

[Drogo]

Poor Hizdahr. Even when he was a king, the other high rollers publicly treated him like he was Meg Griffin.

 

Was Hizdahr ever King, or was he just the Queen's Beeyotch?  Also, this is a terrible thing to say about Meg Griffin.  At least she had that one day where she was cute, and neither Lois nor Peter was ever nailed to a cross for being a slaver. 

 

ETA:  I think Emilia Clarke is lovely as the purposefully rigid Queen.  I think we can even see her struggling with her need to be constantly-composed in her boudoir scenes with Daario, when it's clear she'd much rather relax but still cannot. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Drogo

[darkestboy]

Okay, we so did not need that scene with Shireen. Even I found that way too much, even for this show. Can Stannis and Melisandre die some horrible deaths next season please for that? At least Selyse showed some conscience, even if it was too late though.

 

The scenes with Dany and Drogon at the end were great though. I'm guessing the Sons of Harpy are being slowly fazed out of the show, right?

 

Hope Tyrion, Jorah, Missandei and Daario get out of that pit pretty soon as well. Not bothered that Hizdahr might have been killed though.

 

Arya is so gonna kill Merryn in the finale though. He certainly deserves to die for many a reason, especially after this episode alone.

 

The Jon scenes were a bit boring in this episode.

 

Ellaria's clearly going for a different tactic with dealing with Jaime now, given the way she conversed with him. I like Doran, don't mind Trystane but those sister need better writing though, 8/10

[luckyroll3]

What was Ellaria talking about when she said that her relationship was Oberyn was also frowned upon.  Were they also related, or just unmarried??

[DigitalCount]

Unmarried, but the issue was probably that she was a Sand, while he was a prince of Dorne. The only reason that was even remotely tolerated was because it was Dorne; anywhere else and it would have been a huge deal.

[Drogo]

Unmarried, but the issue was probably that she was a Sand, while he was a prince of Dorne. The only reason that was even remotely tolerated was because it was Dorne; anywhere else and it would have been a huge deal.

 

They were also both bisexual and polysexual (enjoying the intimate company of group)- and everyone's (publicly) hetero in KLanding.

[terrymct]

Okay, we so did not need that scene with Shireen. Even I found that way too much, even for this show. Can Stannis and Melisandre die some horrible deaths next season please for that? At least Selyse showed some conscience, even if it was too late though.

 

The best outcome in the finale or early in the next season is for the Boltons and Stannis' army to fight.   Stannis' army wins, Ramsey and his father are killed somehow in the process.  It'd be nice if Sansa and Theon had a hand in Ramsey's end.   Then, Sansa becomes the Wardeness of the North.   Brienne comes in from her plot line parking lot and kills Stannis.    The army either breaks up and goes home or somehow shifts to Sansa with Davos advising her.

 

Short of that, this whole mess is going to suck dead sheep sideways.

[Constantinople]

They don't even know how to do a proper hero journey for someone like Jon, who should be ripe for it. He sees untold horrors, and...we see him go back to The Wall and have a sulk because people are mean to him.

Large segments of the Wildlings and the Night's Watch have indicated that, even with White Walkers and the Army of the Dead bearing down on them, they'd rather fight old battles than try to do something useful to face the problem at hand. That, coupled with Jon's wish that he should have saved more people led him to, IMO, an understandable feeling of self-doubt and possible sense of futility.

That is not the same as "sulking" because people were "mean to him".

[Pete Martell]

Large segments of the Wildlings and the Night's Watch have indicated that, even with White Walkers and the Army of the Dead bearing down on them, they'd rather fight old battles than try to do something useful to face the problem at hand. That, coupled with Jon's wish that he should have saved more people led him to, IMO, an understandable feeling of self-doubt and possible sense of futility.

That is not the same as "sulking" because people were "mean to him".

 

Unfortunately that's how it came across to me. This isn't the first time they've chosen to have Jon try to make clear a great threat from over the Wall and then have the NW react in a way that leaves him crestfallen. The situation and the character should have changed enough by this point that it wouldn't seem like Screech got turned down for a prom date and the audience goes, "Awww." 

[RadiantAerynSun]

I don't think Davos really had any options.  The man is a Pirate and he was in the middle of a blizzard far away from the sea. 

 

 

He's not a pirate, he's a smuggler. Important distinction ;)

[Constantinople]

Unfortunately that's how it came across to me. This isn't the first time they've chosen to have Jon try to make clear a great threat from over the Wall and then have the NW react in a way that leaves him crestfallen.

So he should be cheerful when he thinks people are reacting stupidly?

[Pete Martell]

So he should be cheerful when he thinks people are reacting stupidly?

 

I would write him as defiant instead of pouty or excessively somber. I think the scenes really undercut any tension that had built up in the last episode, and reduced the NW and Jon's mission to the same tedious internal politics that the show has never done well with this group of characters.

[CeeBeeGee]

Large segments of the Wildlings and the Night's Watch have indicated that, even with White Walkers and the Army of the Dead bearing down on them, they'd rather fight old battles than try to do something useful to face the problem at hand. That, coupled with Jon's wish that he should have saved more people led him to, IMO, an understandable feeling of self-doubt and possible sense of futility.

That is not the same as "sulking" because people were "mean to him".

 

Yeah..."sulking"? Huh? I didn't get that at all. Anyone would've been subdued after escaping from what went down at Hardhome.

 

I tend to doubt that Hizdahr and Dany had actually ties the knot--surely the show would've shown us that?

[Freckledbruh]

I would write him as defiant instead of pouty or excessively somber. I think the scenes really undercut any tension that had built up in the last episode, and reduced the NW and Jon's mission to the same tedious internal politics that the show has never done well with this group of characters.

I really, really didn't get why Jon didn't gather all of the Night's Watch dudes and make a speech telling them of the insane horror he just witnessed and escaped from hammering home the fact that, in order to survive, they need to work with the Wildings (sp?) AND work with their own members. When they first saw a White Walker, they booked and left Sam to die. That can't happen when crap really goes down. I don't see why the Wildings don't slaughter the Night's Watch in their sleep and set up camp there. They don't need them. They just needed the Wall and some shelter.

[Constantinople]

I would write him as defiant instead of pouty or excessively somber. I think the scenes really undercut any tension that had built up in the last episode, and reduced the NW and Jon's mission to the same tedious internal politics that the show has never done well with this group of characters.

I disagree entirely, especially since Jon just returned.

This isn't some Rah Rah Hero movie where Jon shows "defiance", whatever that means, and then everyone in the Night's Watch jumps up on conveniently situated tables and starts waving their swords around while yelling "Jon Snow! Jon Snow! Jon Snow!"

Showing "defiance" won't eliminate politics. It certainly didn't last episode when Jon acted "defiantly", briefly won over the elders, most of whom promptly walked out after the Thenn claimed that the Night's Watch would slit all their throats once they got on the boats.

Under those circumstances, most normal people are going to be somber or subdued.

[Pete Martell]

This isn't some Rah Rah Hero movie where Jon shows "defiance", whatever that means, and then everyone in the Night's Watch jumps up on conveniently situated tables and starts waving their swords around while yelling "Jon Snow! Jon Snow! Jon Snow!"

 

It also isn't a movie about a sullen Crow and his backbiting superiors. They already told that story. They didn't do that great a job of it then, and they didn't with this episode either.

 

There were ways of showing Jon as fed up with the Watch without needing to turn them into cheerleaders for him. There were ways to show that the situation, along with Jon, has changed, even if many in the Watch will never change. 

 

Instead, the scenes just came across as more of the same, and turned the threat beyond the Wall into more of the same. It reminded me of how unwilling this show is to ever avoid writing these characters beyond lazy defaults.

Showing "defiance" won't eliminate politics. 

 

It's not about eliminating, it's about showing a dramatic contrast, instead of just recycling old scenes. Instead of doing that, they just stuck everything in the same old loop and once again diminished Jon as a character by acting like he's still in the pilot.

[Timetoread]

Stannis is an ambitious fool who wants to believe what Melisandre is telling him.  She's the only one telling him he's the last hope for humanity.  He should have asked Mel exactly what the LoL would do for Stannis and his men if he sacrificed his daughter.  And if the LoL is so powerful and all, why does he need Stannis or sacrifices?  Why doesn't he just save Westeros from the White Walkers himself? 

 

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all? 

 

I think they gave her grayscale to show what Stannis is made of.  He didn't pine for a son, his heir.  He loved his litte girl and would not take "it's 100% fatal" for an answer.  Think about that, Stannis had a cure DEVELOPED to save his daughter.  The man who seems to be unable to say the words "I love you" can certainly feel it very deeply and act on it.  Shireen on paper seemed abandoned and unloved, but she came across as a very loved child - loved for who she was.  We had to know the depth of Stannis (who had his brother killed) to see the depth of his delusion.  It reminds me of the famous quote from The Untouchables "What are you prepared to do?", Stannis is prepared to do ANYTHING.  That said, it alos reminds me of a line from an Aretha Franklin song, "For hard, cold, and cruel is a man who paid too much for what he got."

 

It's been said before, but they actually made me feel bad forcHizdahr in that scene. After all, he was the only one offering any kind of real point, (flawed though it may be) and the "good guys" basically just respond by telling him "well, you're wrong and an idiot, so shut up!" Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Dany as ruler, or Tyrion as advisor.

 

When it was happening, I found myself tired of hearing Hizzie talking.  I think he was really getting into the fact that he would be the King and he sought to put the little woman in check.  That said, I didn't bristle or cheer at his silencing.  That was because when Jorah and Dany face off, the oxygen leaves the room.  This was their moment.  He didn't know that and couldn't know that.  Daario gave him the best advice: "Zip it!"

 

Which leads me to something I am feeling more and more.  Jorah is certainly in love with Dany but she is in love with him too.  In that deep, back door love that gets there before the sex does.  He was with her through all the stages of her evolution - discarded royal refugee to childbride bargaining chip to Khaleesi to supernatural mother of dragons to freer of slaves to leader of men.  I understand the deep deep betrayal that she felt.  Definitely her Et tu Brute moment.  I get her rigid rage at him.  And I get that for him, death doesn't matter.  All that matters is, even with his dying breath, that she knows how much he loved her.  I think she knows now.  I don't have too much faith in the writers for this show but I could see a lot of interesting developments between Jorah and Dany.  A roundabout, unconventional love story.  

[Conan Troutman]

I tend to doubt that Hizdahr and Dany had actually ties the knot--surely the show would've shown us that?

 

I'm not sure they were officially married, but if they were, I can see why they didn't show it. It's just not important enough, neither for the show to waste screen time (especially not for a dull affair by Dothraki standards) nor for Dany to actually bother with any kind of big ceremony. We got her talking to Daario about the marriage instead to underline that fact.

 

Unmarried, but the issue was probably that she was a Sand, while he was a prince of Dorne. The only reason that was even remotely tolerated was because it was Dorne; anywhere else and it would have been a huge deal.

 

He also wasn't the heir, and since Doran has at least one son, there was no pressing need to produce any legitimate children. If he were to end up ruling Dorne, he always could've just legitimized one of his bastards since they have higher standing in Dorne anyway (not that it would've been a great idea, the Sand Snakes seem to be even worse at politics than at fighting...). Doran maybe could've insisted on a political marriage, but Dorne seems to be rather detached and independent from the other houses, so there's probably no need for that, either. Hm, what about Doran's wife? Is she dead? Was she from a noble house? Or is Trystane a legitimized bastard?

 

The best outcome in the finale or early in the next season is for the Boltons and Stannis' army to fight.   Stannis' army wins, Ramsey and his father are killed somehow in the process.  It'd be nice if Sansa and Theon had a hand in Ramsey's end.   Then, Sansa becomes the Wardeness of the North.   Brienne comes in from her plot line parking lot and kills Stannis.    The army either breaks up and goes home or somehow shifts to Sansa with Davos advising her.

 

Short of that, this whole mess is going to suck dead sheep sideways.

 

I'm curious how that plays out. I think Stannis has to defeat the Boltons, or at least weaken them considerably, because they would be in a very stable position otherwise, at least they wouldn't have to fear a threat from any army, not even Littlefinger's. But I kind of doubt we get so see the resolution this last episode, there seems to be too much going on in the other stories that there won't be enough screen time for a big battle sequence, so more Boltons next year, ugh. The only chance is Brienne or Sansa/Theon making short work of both Boltons, but that's not going to happen on this show. And if it does, Mel will sell it as a goddamn miracle.

[CletusMusashi]

About the greyscale: I think it worked dramatically, because it did help set Shireen up as a sympathetic character, as did many other details. But also, it had extrapolation value. It gave us foreshadowing to Jorah's situation, and, since it tells us that the disease's spread can be stopped, it keeps us from all just going into "Walking Dead" mode and yelling that somebody has to shoot Jorah. Oh, and also? It marks her as a sick child, rather than as a healthy young girl. This spared us from having to listen to everybody shipping her with Bran.

 

About Jorah, or really about Dany... my take on her allowing him to fight in the games was that she realized he could beat those guys, and she was planning to use that moment to dramatically announce that he had proven himself and was now allowed to rejoin the royal posse.* Since the people of Mereen love gladiators, this move could actually gain some cred for her.

 

And, about Melisandre... that bitch really likes sacrificing highborns, doesn't she? I'm not sure that's actually the safest team for Sansa to get rescued by.

 

* "Not so fast, Ser Jorah. I said 'posse!"

Edited June 10, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Timetoread]

About the greyscale: I think it worked dramatically, because it did help set Shireen up as a sympathetic character, as did many other details. But also, it had extrapolation value. It gave us foreshadowing to Jorah's situation, and, since it tells us that the disease's spread can be stopped, it keeps us from all just going into "Walking Dead" mode and yelling that somebody has to shoot Jorah. Oh, and also? It marks her as a sick child, rather than as a healthy young girl. This spared us from having to listen everybody shipping her with Bran.

 

About Jorah, or really about Dany... my take on her allowing him to fight in the games was that she realized her could beat those guys, and she was planning to use that moment to dramatically announce that he had proven himself and was now allowed to rejoin the royal posse.* Since the people of Mereen love gladiators, this move could actually gain some cred for her.

 

And, about Melisandre... that bitch really likes sacrificing highborns, doesn't she? I'm not sure that's actually the safest team for Sansa to get rescued by.

 

* "Not so fast, Ser Jorah. I said 'posse!"

 

Jorah:  Damn!

[Hecate7]

Good point. I poo-pooed the idea of Stannis rescuing Sansa at the Battle of Blackwater because I figured Melisandre would burn the sister of the King in the North the first chance she got, and Stannis wouldn't be invested in stopping it at all. So I guess I shouldn't be rooting for Stannis to take down Ramsey and rescue Sansa. I mean, at least she is technically Lady of Winterfell and Wardeness of the North right now.

[CeeBeeGee]

Jorah:  Damn!

 

Since Jorah is a future Stone man, would that be considered...rock-blocking?

 

I'll show myself out now.

[Dobian]

He's also very young and still relatively small for a dragon - remember that huge skull back from season 2 or 3 in KL? Drogon has a lot of growing up to do (and apparently they don't really ever stop growing) and his skin might also get thicker/harder. Plus he shouldn't really get so close and on the ground anyway, but he didn't get any (military) training yet so he doesn't know better.

 

 

Dany: "Arial bombardment, Drogon, arial bombardment."

[Timetoread]

Since Jorah is a future Stone man, would that be considered...rock-blocking?

 

I'll show myself out now.

 

Not if she lets him get his rocks off!!

 

>Running out the room after you as the fruit hits the wall behind us<

[anamika]

It's been said before, but they actually made me feel bad forcHizdahr in that scene. After all, he was the only one offering any kind of real point, (flawed though it may be) and the "good guys" basically just respond by telling him "well, you're wrong and an idiot, so shut up!" Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Dany as ruler, or Tyrion as advisor.

 

Agree. I thought it was rather hypocritical of Dany to tease Hizdahr about not having personally fought anyone before. Has she? He was one of the guys running the fighting pits. Surely he would have an idea of what type of fighters do well and what type don't. It's not like the so called expert Daario was right either. Hizdahr on the show came across as intelligent and cultured and I thought both Dany and Tyrion could have been more diplomatic. Surprised he got offed by the Harpies though.

[terrymct]

 

He's also very young and still relatively small for a dragon - remember that huge skull back from season 2 or 3 in KL?

 

They said the large skulls were from the earliest dragons, that the dragons had been getting smaller over time.  Who knows where Dany's will fall on the size spectrum.

[annsterg]

Yeah, well if I were Selyse, I'd be watching my back now.

 

If Stannis DOES become King...then what? He has no heir now. All the other Baratheons are dead (as far as we know). Selyse is too old/has some condition that will not allow her to carry a healthy child to term. There is no divorce in Westeros, and Stannis obviously doesn't give a shit about alienating the Florents, since he already burned Selyse's brother.

 

For the stability of the realm, Stannis can easily (after everything ELSE awful he's rationalized) convince himself that ridding himself of Selyse in favor of a nubile fertile young wife is the "right thing to do" even though it's "hard."

 

So, to paraphrase from "Ghost" -- "Selyse, girl, you in danger!"

Edited June 9, 2015 by annsterg

[iMonrey]

 

I say all this to say that I found it plausible and poignant that when her child screamed to her in anguish, Selyse "felt it".  For all of her denial and refusal born out of pride and idolatry, her child's pain affected her physically. She may have not been okay with Shereen but she was not okay with someone KILLING Shereen.

 

Well I agree with that part but that still doesn't prove "love." I mean, Selyse was rather obviously trying to talk herself into this whole thing being OK while she was standing there telling Stannis why this was the right thing to do, and once she heard Shireen screaming for her she was like "Nope. Can't do it." I get that. She knew it was wrong. By the same token that could have been anyone's child and she could know it was wrong. Burning a kid alive is never the right thing to do and maybe it's because she's the child's mother, maybe it was all just too much for her. I'm not convinced that particular moment proves she felt love for the child all along, I'm just seeing a moment of clarity where she realizes she simply cannot go through with this awful thing.

 

 

I simply do not understand. Davos knew this was coming and could have spirited Shireen out of town, or set up something that suggested she died, or some goddamn thing.

 

I must be really, really dense because I never got the sense that Davos knew this would happen or that it was foreshadowed or anything. Davos was never there when Mellisandre was suggesting Shireen as a sacrifice to Stannis, and all they ever did was put leeches on Gendry. That's kind of what I figured they had in mind for Shireen. I know Davos was trying to let Stannis take Shireen back to the Wall but Davos has always been protective of Shireen and didn't want her coming with on the Winterfell attack in the first place. 

 

I guess the only "foreshadow" was maybe seeing Stannis heading towards Mellistandre and Selyse standing there looking smug, but jeez, when don't they look smug?

[Timetoread]

Well I agree with that part but that still doesn't prove "love." I mean, Selyse was rather obviously trying to talk herself into this whole thing being OK while she was standing there telling Stannis why this was the right thing to do, and once she heard Shireen screaming for her she was like "Nope. Can't do it." I get that. She knew it was wrong. By the same token that could have been anyone's child and she could know it was wrong. Burning a kid alive is never the right thing to do and maybe it's because she's the child's mother, maybe it was all just too much for her. I'm not convinced that particular moment proves she felt love for the child all along, I'm just seeing a moment of clarity where she realizes she simply cannot go through with this awful thing.

 

I'm not trying to make a case for Selyse as Mother of the Year.  I'm just saying that people are very complicated and nature and instinct even moreso.  No doubt she was a sucktastic mother and she was fully convinced that she had zero feelings for Shireen.  My point was that regardless of what her heart and head felt - her BODY remembered.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Timetoread

[LuciaMia]

 

where there is justice.

I think that's why I, and a lot of people here, have watched the last ten minutes of this episode. After the horrific death of Shireen, we want to see some justice, see some 'bad' people get theirs.  And the Sons of Harpy were the stand-ins for that.  Jesus, it's one thing for them to attempt an assasination of a Queen who they loathe, but another to go on a whole-sale slaughter of your fellow citizens. (I wonder if anyone has done a count on how many throats we've seen slit thru the course of five seasons)  So Drogon comes in to dispense a little fiery pay-back.

[oliverwendell]

 

I really, really didn't get why Jon didn't gather all of the Night's Watch dudes and make a speech telling them of the insane horror he just witnessed and escaped from hammering home the fact that, in order to survive, they need to work with the Wildings (sp?) AND work with their own members.

 

Did I miss a scene?  It's quite possible I blacked out after the Shireen burning.  But the only Wall scene I remember is when Jon has just arrived, and the Wildlings spend that entire scene marching through the gate.  Jon hasn't really had an opportunity to gather the NW together for this sort of speech.  Maybe that will happen next week?

[hks]

Not to split hairs but Doran is Ellaria's brother in law, not her brother. Oberyn was Doran's brother.

Ahh. Yes, I forgot. She just seemed like a petulant little sister in those scenes. (The spilling of the wine and all).

I think Doran has a plan for his son to be in charge in Westeros. If he's heard that Tommen has taken to his room, and is unable to run the kingdom, will that task fall to Myrcella...and maybe her future husband? I don't think he would have raised a glass to Tommen otherwise. It seemed weird - unless he did it JUST to get in Ellaria's face about the whole thing.  Who knows. I still think Ellaria hasn't dropped her quest for revenge - it seems too easy this way. 

[paigow]

* "Not so fast, Ser Jorah. I said 'posse!"

Jorah 2.0: Hey Tomayto .. Tomahto 

[NoWillToResist]

I think there are only two people, we can reasonable root for to end the game and take on the Whitewalkers; Dany and Jon. They are genuinely good people trying to do their best and be just in terrible situations. I have no problem investing in their stories and cheering them on.

 

I have only recently started to care a tiny bit about Jon and Dany. Usually I don't give a damn about them. Neither one is entertaining in the slightest, so I think that has kind of damned them. Give me Tyrion any day. Sure, he has dark moments but at least he can make me laugh now and then, which is so desperately needed in this miserable fucking show.

 

Liked seeing Dany and Missandei bond this season.

The shot of them bracing for death and holding hands, nice touch.

 

Yes, that was lovely.

 

This was the most I liked the Dorne stuff, mainly for one reason: Doran.  Seriously, I wish we got more of him, because he's the only Dornish character who is actually competent, reasonable, and level-headed. 

 

I'm hoping it's not all a smoke screen. It would be so damned refreshing to have a seasoned, sane, and intelligent ruler. Ellaria is annoying me. I get that she's sad but she's as short-sighted as Cersei.

 

I'm not surprised at Stannis.  He never seemed to care for Shireen at all

 

He cared enough to do everything in his power and beyond to save her from the greyscale. Though, now that I look back on all this, I have to wonder how much of that was due to love and how much of that was due to "you are my daughter and a Baratheon, so we will not yield to this sickness!" Hmmm.

 

Is there anyone in Westoros who doesn't know about Cersei and Jaime's twincest?

 

...right? I actually looked at my husband and was all "does EVERYONE know?" Like, WTF? How the everloving fuck did Joffrey make king?

 

When Jorah was flat on his back and at the second fighter's mercy, the third fighter choose to stab the second fighter in the back rather than wait until after the second fighter killed Jorah.  I'm not sure why the third fighter would have done that unless he figured Jorah was essentially done anyway and better to take out the bigger threat immediately, or least while the bigger threat wasn't moving, as the second fighter would be if he had stabbed Jorah.

 

Frankly I was surprised that the third fighter wasn't punished for that move. It looked to me that the guy who had his spear pointed at Jorah was waiting on instructions from Dany re: kill/mercy. I was surprised that the third dude was allowed to basically interrupt that to kill the guy waiting on the queen. Seems impolite at best and cheating/rule-breaking at worst.

 

I also hate it when they put characters into an impossible situation like being surrounded by an armed and crazy mob and then letting them off the hook by having the mob suddenly become tentative and full of self-preservation.  All they had to do was rush Dany and her protectors and it's over.

 

Yeah, I wasn't rooting for Dany and her crew to be killed but I was rolling my eyes that the Harpies had them outnumbered and surrounded yet chose to attack one at a time for maximum inefficiency. Dario normally annoys the hell out of me but he gets points for pulling Missendi out of Drogon's way and shielding her.

Even when Joffrey died, it wasn't to bring justice for his crimes, it was for other personal and political reasons. 

 

Well, in a sense, his murder was due to his crimes of being a sadistic fuckstick. Oleanna might not have killed him otherwise. Unlike Littlefinger, she had no interest in putting someone she cared about into the hands of a sadist.

 

I can't believe that some of the posters here have managed to calm my rage towards Stannis. I am almost, ALMOST over my hatred of him. I was stuck on the notion that he's just power hungry and wants the throne but I had forgotten that he seems to think that the prophecy (or whatever hoohah Red has spun) has stated that he must be on the throne to save the damned world. I blame his stoicism for making him look less affected by his decision. Clearly if he didn't care about his daughter, he'd have done it the first time Red suggested it. But he's clearly at the end of his rope and thinks all is lost. I can't ever forgive him but, if I can put myself in his crazytown shoes, he's not evil or sadistic. So, he's still below Ramsey Bolton on my "die, asshole!" list. Because Ramsey REVELS in causing pain to innocents. Stannis seems to think he's just doing what he has to; While innocents are still dying, there is a difference, IMO. Motivation matters.

[Dobian]

 

Frankly I was surprised that the third fighter wasn't punished for that move. It looked to me that the guy who had his spear pointed at Jorah was waiting on instructions from Dany re: kill/mercy. I was surprised that the third dude was allowed to basically interrupt that to kill the guy waiting on the queen. Seems impolite at best and cheating/rule-breaking at worst.

 

He should have been given a technical foul and the spearman awarded with one free throw.  Except he was dead.  Oh well.

 

 

I have only recently started to care a tiny bit about Jon and Dany. Usually I don't give a damn about them. Neither one is entertaining in the slightest, so I think that has kind of damned them. Give me Tyrion any day. Sure, he has dark moments but at least he can make me laugh now and then, which is so desperately needed in this miserable fucking show.

 

If you want to rate the major characters on personality and fun-to-watch, of course you have Tyrion at the top, Jamie and Cersei way up there, Littlefinger scores well, Ramsay way up there as a psycho villain, Arya and Stannis sort of in the middle, Dany and Jon down near the bottom, Sansa below them.  Maybe I'm rating Stannis a little high, he's pretty much a stiff.  His story makes him more interesting than he really is.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Dobian

[DarkRaichu]

 

Frankly I was surprised that the third fighter wasn't punished for that move. It looked to me that the guy who had his spear pointed at Jorah was waiting on instructions from Dany re: kill/mercy. I was surprised that the third dude was allowed to basically interrupt that to kill the guy waiting on the queen. Seems impolite at best and cheating/rule-breaking at worst.

 

Did you see any referee ? :D  It was a 6 way free for all battle royale.  Winner was whoever last standing, survival at whatever cost

[DarkRaichu]

 

...right? I actually looked at my husband and was all "does EVERYONE know?" Like, WTF? How the everloving fuck did Joffrey make king?

 

My theory is Tywin hold the house of cards together, ie. people were afraid of him.  Everyone knew Tywin would do anything to punish anyone who ever defied Jeoffrey / Tywin's grandson.  Robb Stark was prime example.   Nobody, not even the peasants, took Tommin seriously after Tywin was dead 

[NoWillToResist]

Did you see any referee ? :D  It was a 6 way free for all battle royale.  Winner was whoever last standing, survival at whatever cost

 

Yeah. My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. :) 

 

I don't know why the dude didn't just kill Jorah though. What WAS he waiting for? Did he know that his opponent and the queen knew each other and thought that maybe he shouldn't kill Jorah in case he upset her?

 

There was a lot of stupidity to go around that arena. No weapons check, the queen's body guards watching the sport rather than the crowd for threats against the queen, the victor keeping his back to the remaining survivor, the Harpies advancing one at a time on Dany's group...

[Mz Anthrope]

Over the course of the week, there was speculation that Ramsay would bring not only men with him, but also his kennel of hunting dogs. I don't think that happened. For one thing, the operation went down pretty quietly. But more importantly, if there had been dogs involved, I think Melisandre would have said something. Probably something along the lines of "for the night is dark... and full of terriers."

Effing beautiful... I am still sore deep in my skull bones

[DarkRaichu]

Yeah. My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. :) 

 

I don't know why the dude didn't just kill Jorah though. What WAS he waiting for? Did he know that his opponent and the queen knew each other and thought that maybe he shouldn't kill Jorah in case he upset her?

 

There was a lot of stupidity to go around that arena. No weapons check, the queen's body guards watching the sport rather than the crowd for threats against the queen, the victor keeping his back to the remaining survivor, the Harpies advancing one at a time on Dany's group...

To be fair, he only paused for a second. The spear guy pierced him as he was delivering the finishing stab (both hands holding sword).

 

And yes, not having any Unsulied facing / guarding the back of the royal tent was pretty stupid.  The attacking 1 a time is just a movie cliche for dramatic purpose

[Freckledbruh]

Did I miss a scene?  It's quite possible I blacked out after the Shireen burning.  But the only Wall scene I remember is when Jon has just arrived, and the Wildlings spend that entire scene marching through the gate.  Jon hasn't really had an opportunity to gather the NW together for this sort of speech.  Maybe that will happen next week?

He didn't look like he was going to make a speech after the little boy mean mugged him but maybe you are right and he will next week.  That just makes me wonder why those scenes were included anyway though.  He is now responsible for around 2,000 refugees who are setting up camp in a place where not only are they unwanted but the people who don't want them there have killed their own team members.  I would think that the show runners would show him addressing his people about it immediately.

[Drogo]

I don't see how Jon creating a panic over the White Walker battle before the Wildlings had even made it through the gates would have proved he was a better leader.  He walked in and was surveying the guest Wildlings' entrance/taking note of his Castle Black brothers' responses, then Thorn made a douchey (but private) comment to him having a big heart and we left off there.  

 

What I'm saying is, I felt his actions were full of confidence, awareness, and maturity.  I think the assumption that he kept the White Walker battle info secret is extreme.

[Freckledbruh]

 

I don't see how Jon creating a panic over the White Walker battle 

Who said anything about causing a panic?  These are soldiers who have been training to protect the Wall right?  I'm saying that he should be telling them what he and the Willings just faced and why it is important that they all work together.  If that causes a panic, I just don't see a point of the Night's Watch at all then.