S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[paigow]

I don't know why the dude didn't just kill Jorah though. What WAS he waiting for?

Chalk it up to "Gloatinus Oberynium" minus the interrogation bits

[DarkRaichu]

He didn't look like he was going to make a speech after the little boy mean mugged him but maybe you are right and he will next week.  That just makes me wonder why those scenes were included anyway though.  He is now responsible for around 2,000 refugees who are setting up camp in a place where not only are they unwanted but the people who don't want them there have killed their own team members.  I would think that the show runners would show him addressing his people about it immediately.

Shouldn't that speech be given during their nightly meeting / briefing, when the majority of NW sit in 1 room ?

[Freckledbruh]

Shouldn't that speech be given during their nightly meeting / briefing, when the majority of NW sit in 1 room ?

I think he should have had them gathered in a courtyard upon arrival.  That way all of the new allies are meeting at once.  Also, I think it is better to get it out of the way ASAP before people start to doubt and plot against you.

[ulkis]

I actually don't expect any type of moral from this story. It seems to be to be pure storytelling for its own sake. Nothing wrong with that, except -

 

I watch the show and get psyched for it and talk back to the TV and often am on the edge of my seat. But I do wonder if we're all going to look back in a few years and it's going to look just exploitative. This season alone has seen how many truly heinous acts?

 

I think it all depends on how the story ends. If it's well told in the opinions of a lot of people, it won't be remembered as an exploitative show. If most people think it sucks, then yeah, I think it might age badly as a show.

[Constantinople]

Frankly I was surprised that the third fighter wasn't punished for that move. It looked to me that the guy who had his spear pointed at Jorah was waiting on instructions from Dany re: kill/mercy. I was surprised that the third dude was allowed to basically interrupt that to kill the guy waiting on the queen. Seems impolite at best and cheating/rule-breaking at worst.

 

 

He should have been given a technical foul and the spearman awarded with one free throw.  Except he was dead.  Oh well.

Where's Thoros of Myr when you need him?

During the pit fighting season he could earn extra money for the Brotherhood by resurrecting those who were improperly killed.

[NeelyO]

 

I re-watched the episode and noticed something I missed the first time around. When Dany et al were in the middle of the arena surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy, it wasn't until she clasped Missandei's hand that she calmed down and appeared to focus and then closed her eyes (and presumably called for Drogon). I then remembered a previous episode when Dany was struggling with a decision and it wasn't until she talked to Missandei that she gained confidence and became more resolute. I kind of like the thought of Dany gaining strength through Missandei.

I thought it was more of a "well, guess this is the end. At least I'm not going to die all alone." Kind of moment, actually. I'd like to think that if Dany has some kind of telepathic link to the dragons, she'd actually have more control over them, and not have to resort to locking them away to keep them from eating peasants and their families.

Yeah, I can see your point and you may very well be right. I guess I was just assuming there was some connection between Dany and Drogo and that connection accounted for Drogo showing up at the right place at the right time to protect Dany..

 

 

[wayne67]

Why would somebody risk balancing on a dragon while shooting arrows when the dragon can breathe fire on your enemies? Makes no sense.

 

Well as evidenced in this episode Drogon can only shoot fire in one direction meaning his flanks and rear are vulnerable to attack so if he had a bit of ranged support he could burn people in one direction while she shoots in the other...

 

Also I'm picturing a scene where Dany is standing next to Drogon and they're having a training session where she fires arrows at 'acceptable targets' so that Drogon knows what targets are good targets to burn alive and which ones are bad.

 

For instance she could fire arrows into men with sons of harpies masks or men with swords and not into painted targets of children so Drogon doesn't burn children alive again in the future.

 

Also learning to shoot a bow would allow her to be a ranged attacker keeping her out of the general fray of battles without looking all damsely while fighting breaks out. If she wants to be the warrior Queen of the Dothraki again she should learn how to kill people that defy her. That said... Where are the bloody Dothraki ?

[Freckledbruh]

 

Also I'm picturing a scene where Dany is standing next to Drogon and they're having a training session where she fires arrows at 'acceptable targets' so that Drogon knows what targets are good targets to burn alive and which ones are bad.

That would definitely be a cool scene to watch.

[lucindabelle]

ANYTHING with dragons!

[Drogo]

Who said anything about causing a panic? These are soldiers who have been training to protect the Wall right? I'm saying that he should be telling them what he and the Willings just faced and why it is important that they all work together. If that causes a panic, I just don't see a point of the Night's Watch at all then.

Once the Wildlings were safely inside and the tunnel was secured again, that was the right time.

Not before.

[bbolto]

I found the Night's Watch scene perfunctory (it was basically ~tension~ ) but that happens a lot on this show because they're juggling storylines and I'm assuming they'll get into a bit of debriefing next week.

[oliverwendell]

 

I found the Night's Watch scene perfunctory (it was basically ~tension~ ) but that happens a lot on this show because they're juggling storylines and I'm assuming they'll get into a bit of debriefing next week.

 

That's what I thought, too.  After last week, it would have felt weird not to at least check in with Jon and the Wildlings at some point in this episode, and the sole point of this scene to me was to show us they made it to Castle Black and Alliser let them in, and that's all.  The courtyard scene lasts less than a minute and begins and ends while the Wildlings are trudging through in a long, ragged line (and a Giant is pulling focus, too).  It just didn't seem to me to be a failure of character and/or leadership for Jon not to debrief the Night Watch in the midst of all that.  I'm sure he'll tell them what happened at Hardhome expeditiously, and if he doesn't, I'll stand corrected.

[wayne67]

ANYTHING with dragons!

 

True that. I'd be great if they remembered this was supposed to be an epic fantasy and dialled down the soft core porn/ long winded political intrigue a couple of notches.

 

Scenes I'd love to see. Dany visiting her 3 cities on dragonback to remind the people that she's the Mother of Dragons. She could have the people meet her outside the walls...

 

Or Dany has a scene where she introduces all her advisors to her dragons. This is Jorah, you're not allowed to eat him now because after he saved my life I'm going to pardon him for his earlier treason. This is Daario he is the leader of the Second Sons and Mommy's special friend... This is Meissandre, she's my translator and best girl friend. This is Tyrion Lannister, his house helped slaughter mine but I'm choosing to overlook that because he's witty, don't set him on fire he'll probably explode from all the imbibed alcohol. This is Grey Worm, he's the only Unsullied worthy of the name and of an actual name... NO biting, no burning and no roughhouseing.

 

Or Dany teaches each of the other dragons to accept passenger. Jorah and Daario perhaps ? to serve as escorts? Maybe Tyrion + Dany + Dragon riding so the internet will explode from the combined fandoms ? lol

 

Or better yet Dany can start ranging out further with her dragons to bring in the Dothraki and then do aerial surveys of WEsterosi and run into Arya's direwolf and they can all get to know each other and Tyrion can have a pet Dire Wolf for laughs.

Edited June 10, 2015 by wayne67

[Constantinople]

Yeah, well if I were Selyse, I'd be watching my back now.

 

If Stannis DOES become King...then what? He has no heir now. All the other Baratheons are dead (as far as we know). Selyse is too old/has some condition that will not allow her to carry a healthy child to term. There is no divorce in Westeros, and Stannis obviously doesn't give a shit about alienating the Florents, since he already burned Selyse's brother.

 

For the stability of the realm, Stannis can easily (after everything ELSE awful he's rationalized) convince himself that ridding himself of Selyse in favor of a nubile fertile young wife is the "right thing to do" even though it's "hard."

So to speak.

[paigow]

For the stability of the realm, Stannis can easily (after everything ELSE awful he's rationalized) convince himself that ridding himself of Selyse in favor of a nubile fertile young wife...

The kennel girl in Winterfell might be available......Stannis will have his own Purple Wedding....

[Conan Troutman]

They said the large skulls were from the earliest dragons, that the dragons had been getting smaller over time.  Who knows where Dany's will fall on the size spectrum.

 

I thought they were just getting killed at a younger and younger age, until none of them got old enough to reach dragon puberty and they went extinct (minus those eggs Dany got). Some sort of organized dragon genocide, since I guess no one in Westeros not named Targaryen would've been too happy about their existence. I don't think they suffered from some genetic size regression - Drogon has to be somewhere between two and four years old, depending on how many time has passed since the end of season one, and he's already a lot bigger than whatever size the last ones were when Tywin mentioned that to Joffrey.

[Mz Anthrope]

So, when is Jorah going to 'be honest' and 'trust Dany' by telling her he has grey scale? 

 

And Arya's storyline died big time for me after the Hound.   Who's to say the thin dude isn't a man in disguise testing her?

 

And thank you again Tyrion for your 'what the many gods...' expressions when checking out the dragons.

 

Did anyone else, after Dany took off and they were panning back to the remaining four, think it was a lot like the Avengers pan in the first movie when they were all standing around in the street?

[RedheadZombie]

I don't hate Dorne like many, but it's really missed the mark for me.  I eagerly awaited seeing it this season, because I just adored Oberyn.  The Sand Snakes looked like they would be kick ass, and Ellaria left a good impression on me.

 

Overall, I feel like they're vacillating between camp and satire.  It's like Princess Bride meets I Dream of Jeanie's bottle.  The sand snakes have little of their father's skill or charm.  Ellaria has turned into a bloodthirsty avenger.  Myrcella is neither sweet nor interesting, and Doran lets Ellaria insult and threaten him.

 

If Myrcella isn't going to be sweet and loving, then make her a Cersei, Jr.  She sees her uncle after years, and barely talks to him.  No - oh hello uncle, are you truly my father?  How is my beloved brother dealing with reining?  How is my new sis-in-law?  How about mother, is she alright since grandfather's murder?  Did my beloved uncle Tyrion really kill grandfather?  Nope.  Nothing.  Nada.  Bitchy is much more interesting than petulant and boring.

 

So Doran humbled Ellaria in front of the sand snakes.  But what happens to the sand snakes?  They tell us nothing of their fate.  It showed on Doran's face that he realized the threat against Myrcella must have originated with Ellaria, yet she sits with the honored guests, while his nieces languish playing slapping games in jail. Is this where they're leaving it?

[CeeBeeGee]

Or Dany has a scene where she introduces all her advisors to her dragons. This is Jorah, you're not allowed to eat him now because after he saved my life I'm going to pardon him for his earlier treason. This is Daario he is the leader of the Second Sons and Mommy's special friend... 

 

Cut to the dragons looking disgusted and covering their ears. "Maaaa! Gross!"

 

Speaking of which--are the dragons all boys? How will we perpetuate the species without a sister? Unless we fill in the gaps with frog DNA...

 

Or better yet Dany can start ranging out further with her dragons to bring in the Dothraki and then do aerial surveys of WEsterosi and run into Arya's direwolf and they can all get to know each other and Tyrion can have a pet Dire Wolf for laughs.

 

 

Where is my Nymeria?!?!

[wayne67]

Speaking of which--are the dragons all boys? How will we perpetuate the species without a sister? Unless we fill in the gaps with frog DNA...

 

For one reason or another I assumed Drogon was a boy and the other 2 were females. Though I don't actually know if that's what they're aiming for. I guess Dragon Incest and Egg laying is a possibility in the future. Then again I guess we don't know that the dragons are from the same brood so they may only be step children and I've now officially put too much thought into dragon procreation.

Edited June 10, 2015 by wayne67

[dramachick]

I've been trying to decide if I want Stannis to die a long, suffering death at the hands of Ramsey or get the beat-down of the century culminating in a beheading from Brienne.

 

But maybe Selyse just stabs him in his fucking chest where his heart is supposed to be.  He killed her child.  That moment of clarity Selyse experienced when Shireen screamed for her might last long enough for her to kill Stannis and then herself because she's got nothing left. 

 

I've seen documentaries about people who have joined cults and ignored numerous warning signs as they subjected their children to danger only to realize what they've done when it's too late. Sometimes their common sense would kick in, and they would question some of the crazy things the cult leader wanted, but then they would be talked out of their doubts with more of the same bullshit that got them in the cult in the first place. I will never understand the mindset of people that fall for that, but they exist.

 

How horrible it must have been for Shireen in her final moments to understand the real reason her mother didn't want her to come north with them.

 

“The moment of betrayal is the worst, the moment when you know beyond any doubt that you've been betrayed: that some other human being has wished you that much evil” ― Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale

[CletusMusashi]

You know something? I like that different broods theory. I do not know of a single species in which the egg colors in a clutch do not match. For example, one hen might lay white eggs and one might lay brown, but I don't think there is one specific hen that lays some white eggs and some brown ones. Whichever color she lays, the others will be that color too, because she only has one set of genes determining that.

 

The hatchlings from that clutch of uniformly white or brown eggs can vary in color, sure. Because the color of the babies is determined by how the genes from two parents were shuffled, and the shuffle will vary from one individual to another. But the hen's eggshell color genes were shuffled long ago, before the egg that she hatched from was even laid.

 

So three different colored eggs, if we base this on the biology of birds, lizards, crocodiles, anything whose egg color we know, actually, indicates three different mothers. Quite probably from populations which were pretty well removed from one another genetically. I'd guess that each egg was collected from a different corner of Essos, and represents a fairly distinct local subspecies.

 

So if two of them are female, good. The first generation of offspring would still be dragons, which does have its own set of problems, but at least they wouldn't be joffrey-lizards.

Edited June 10, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[morgankobi]

I tend to doubt that Hizdahr and Dany had actually ties the knot--surely the show would've shown us that?

 

There was a lot of unexpected death at the fighting pits; sure seems like a GOT wedding to me!

 

I don't think they had married yet, but have no real reason why I think that's so. Doubt it matters now, though.

Edited June 10, 2015 by morgankobi

[WicketyWack]

Anyway, maybe I missed it but can someone explain why did they have to kill Shireen instead of pull a Gendry (i.e. only using his blood)? It's because they had to win a battle and not just kill a couple of men or what?

 

I'm guessing it's because he has to win the battle despite the coming winter, starvation, and lack of men, and now — short on supplies, food, and horses. Here's the conversation about this between Stannis and Melisandre:

 

Melisandre: "Sometimes sacrifices must be made to ensure victory. I have shown you the power of king's blood. The usurper Robb Stark, the usurper Joffrey Baratheon."

Stannis: "We don't have Robert's bastard here."

Melisandre: "No. We have someone better. And your blood runs through her veins."

Stannis: "Have you lost your mind?"

Melisandre: "Do you doubt me, still? After all that you've seen?"

Stannis: "There must be another way. Leeches or something."

Melisandre: "There is only one way. You must become king before the long night begins. Only you can lead the living against the dead. All your life has led us to this moment, to this decision."

Stannis: "She is my daughter. Get out."

 

I guess the Lord of Light needs ALL the king's blood. And we know he's into fire, so that bit was probably insurance. I mean if they're going to sacrifice her, might as well serve her up the way the Lord likes 'em: burned alive.

Edited June 10, 2015 by WicketyWack

[Hecate7]

Agree. I thought it was rather hypocritical of Dany to tease Hizdahr about not having personally fought anyone before. Has she? He was one of the guys running the fighting pits. Surely he would have an idea of what type of fighters do well and what type don't. It's not like the so called expert Daario was right either. Hizdahr on the show came across as intelligent and cultured and I thought both Dany and Tyrion could have been more diplomatic. Surprised he got offed by the Harpies though.

 

Me, too, because I am pretty sure that the stuff he went to check on, before the fight, was Harpy business. I think he was involved in the plot to kill Danaerys, and probably more surprised than anyone when the Harpies went ahead and killed him while they were at it. I don't think his death proves his innocence at all. I think it proves that the Harpies didn't want him on the throne after Danaerys was dead, and that they didn't want him alive to blab in case the mission failed.

[Hecate7]

Well as evidenced in this episode Drogon can only shoot fire in one direction meaning his flanks and rear are vulnerable to attack so if he had a bit of ranged support he could burn people in one direction while she shoots in the other...

 

Also I'm picturing a scene where Dany is standing next to Drogon and they're having a training session where she fires arrows at 'acceptable targets' so that Drogon knows what targets are good targets to burn alive and which ones are bad.

 

For instance she could fire arrows into men with sons of harpies masks or men with swords and not into painted targets of children so Drogon doesn't burn children alive again in the future.

 

 

I always thought Drogon was framed. We've seen him hunt, and he carefully aimed past the shepherd boy and went for the sheep. The arena scene was different--there were a lot of people there and he basically went after anyone who looked, sounded, or smelled like they were going to harm him or Danaerys. He seemed to already know not to kill Jorah, Missandei, any of the unsullied, or even Tyrion. He wasn't killing anybody for fun--he grabbed the first guy because he was rushing Danaerys to kill her.

 

It would be pretty cool if Danaerys learned how to train her dragons. I think that Rheagal is going to be the hardest to train--he's the one dragon we've actually SEEN kill a human without provocation or Danaerys' express command. Viserion just accepted half the cooked guy and agreed with Rheagal that Danaerys has been holding out on them and that this stuff is really good. Still, I won't be surprised if Viserion and Rheagal turn out to be females, or, one of each, either because they were different genders all along, or because certain environmental pressures cause them to change genders, just like some species of lizard. Possibly being paired in a dark cave with no Drogon might have caused them to turn into one male and one female, and that dungeon could be full of dragon eggs by now. Maybe Rheagal is so ferocious because she's got eggs somewhere.

[wayne67]

You know something? I like that different broods theory. I do not know of a single species in which the egg colors in a clutch do not match. For example, one hen might lay white eggs and one might lay brown, but I don't think there is one specific hen that lays some white eggs and some brown ones. Whichever color she lays, the others will be that color too, because she only has one set of genes determining that.

 

So if two of them are female, good. The first generation of offspring would still be dragons, which does have its own set of problems, but at least they wouldn't be joffrey-lizards.

 

Joffrey Lizards made me laugh so hard... Could you imagine a sadistic dragon ? I mean they're already cold blooded but Ramsey level sadism in a DRAGON... That would be even more dangerous than a renegade White Walker army.

 

From what little we know about the eggs, they were very old and petrified so they may have come from very different lineages through the aeons and for whatever reason they didn't hatch. Perhaps they were leftovers from a stolen brood and it turned out they needed dragon fire to wake them up or just lots of fire... and noone wanted to get that close to the dragon lair to study dragon breeding to figure out that sort of stuff.

 

Now I'm thinking the eggs need a backstory because they are far more interesting than several of the characters. lol

[Conan Troutman]

Moving on to the other parts of the episode. I was pretty disappointed with Arya this week. I hoped she'd be getting some much needed assassin training, but so far, her skill set hasn't really improved a lot. Granted, she's gotten better at lying (and sweeping floors), but that's about it. No weapon training at all and I thought assassins would learn to hide in the shadows or something like that. Instead she's stalking Meryn Trant in a painfully obvious way, running around in a brothel with her tray of shells and just staring at him from not ten feet away for about a minute or two, until she's yelled at to get the hell out. Reminded me of this scene:

 

She better bring her A game next week, or better yet, another face just to be sure.

[Yogi Nomad]

I can't say I like this episode because Stannis burned his own baby girl alive. I mean what is wrong with him??? I hope Davos kill him.

I got goosebumps during Drogon scene. We need more dragons please!

"..right? I actually looked at my husband and was all "does EVERYONE know?" Like, WTF? How the everloving fuck did Joffrey make king?"

Speaking as a person who lives in a country where there are still king and queen. And you can be thrown in jail for insulting the king. I'd say it is possible that people in the 7 kingdoms know all about the incest, gay and stuff but lack any power or authority to do anything about it and now all that changed thanks to Ceisei.

[penelope79]

Thank you, WicketyWack!

 

He cared enough to do everything in his power and beyond to save her from the greyscale. Though, now that I look back on all this, I have to wonder how much of that was due to love and how much of that was due to "you are my daughter and a Baratheon, so we will not yield to this sickness!" Hmmm.
 

[...]

 

I can't believe that some of the posters here have managed to calm my rage towards Stannis. I am almost, ALMOST over my hatred of him. I was stuck on the notion that he's just power hungry and wants the throne but I had forgotten that he seems to think that the prophecy (or whatever hoohah Red has spun) has stated that he must be on the throne to save the damned world. I blame his stoicism for making him look less affected by his decision. Clearly if he didn't care about his daughter, he'd have done it the first time Red suggested it. But he's clearly at the end of his rope and thinks all is lost. I can't ever forgive him but, if I can put myself in his crazytown shoes, he's not evil or sadistic. So, he's still below Ramsey Bolton on my "die, asshole!" list. Because Ramsey REVELS in causing pain to innocents. Stannis seems to think he's just doing what he has to; While innocents are still dying, there is a difference, IMO. Motivation matters.

 

 

I don't condone Stannis' actions AT ALL and I will never change my mind. But that said, the more I think about it, the more I believe he's a very, very tragic character and that's why he still comes below R&R (Ramsey and Roose) for me, too. He's been told he's the only one who can save the world and by now he believes it so strongly that he feels it's his duty to accomplish what he's destined to do, whatever it takes. Which means killing his brother, his nephew or other people. He trusts Melisandre when she says that everything they do, everything the Lord of Light commands, is for the greater good. Hence, he did all those things, even though his conscience was not 100% ok with all of them (at least, that's how Stephen Dillane portrayed him: bad actions yes, but at least he's a bit tormented by them). The fact is, this time around he had to sacrifice what he loves the most. Timetoread is right mentioning the Aretha Franklin's line:

 

 

"For hard, cold, and cruel is a man who paid too much for what he got."

 

because it prefectly fits Stannis. When he'll fully realized what he did, I think he will really be devastated. Sure, he'll fight the Boltons (and now he's even more motivated because he had his daughter killed to win the battle: losing would mean that Shireen died in vain), he'll be probably successful, but he will be dead inside anyeay and will realize that the price he paid was far too high. That's why I think he will die soon and, when he'll meet his end (again, I guess by Brienne's hand), I don't think he will try to defend himself, I think he'll feel he deserves it and, at the same time, that death will eventually set him free by the burden of being The King Who Needs To Save The Day. And who lost everything he really cared about in the process.

Stannis is one of the most shakespearian GoT characters, imho.

 

Anywaaay... Stannis decided to kill Shireen after the fires in his camp, which were all Ramsey's, so... yeah, it's always Ramsey's fault! :D

 

My theory is Tywin hold the house of cards together, ie. people were afraid of him.  Everyone knew Tywin would do anything to punish anyone who ever defied Jeoffrey / Tywin's grandson.  Robb Stark was prime example.   Nobody, not even the peasants, took Tommin seriously after Tywin was dead 

 

That and the fact that, before Robert's death, nobody seemed to doubt that the Baratheon children were his. IIRC, Jon Arryn had the first doubts (and he died) and then Ned started to spread the word, so to speak, by informing Stannis (and, of course, he died too). I don't think that Jamie/Cersei twincest was such a common knowledge before Jon and Ned and Robert definitively didn't have any suspect or he would've probably killed both Cersei and Jamie. But I agree, Twyin was the only reason why this delicate matter was still treated with a bit of discretion, because people feared him. The war of the 5 kings made the twincest official and, in fact, Twyin Lannister won that war.

[terrymct]

I thought they were just getting killed at a younger and younger age, until none of them got old enough to reach dragon puberty and they went extinct (minus those eggs Dany got). Some sort of organized dragon genocide, since I guess no one in Westeros not named Targaryen would've been too happy about their existence. I don't think they suffered from some genetic size regression - Drogon has to be somewhere between two and four years old, depending on how many time has passed since the end of season one, and he's already a lot bigger than whatever size the last ones were when Tywin mentioned that to Joffrey.

 

I went back and rewatched.  They did actually say that the Targeryan's dragons got smaller over time.   Looking back now, I wonder if that's some sort of allegory related to the Targeryan's dominance/skills/sanity diminishing over time as they sat on the throne.   If so, Dany's dragons could end up being enormous since they're a fresh batch.

[NoWillToResist]

If Myrcella isn't going to be sweet and loving, then make her a Cersei, Jr.  She sees her uncle after years, and barely talks to him.  No - oh hello uncle, are you truly my father?  How is my beloved brother dealing with reining?  How is my new sis-in-law?  How about mother, is she alright since grandfather's murder?  Did my beloved uncle Tyrion really kill grandfather?  Nope.  Nothing.  Nada.  Bitchy is much more interesting than petulant and boring.

 

Do we know whether Mycella knows all this?

 

Also, I don't really blame Mycella for her attitude. She was dumped at Dorne at a young age, basically abandoned there. No visits, nothing. Now that she's settled and happy, her uncle - with whom she's never been close at all - steals into the city and tries to rabbit her away without explanation, taking her away from the man she's come to love? I'd be all 'fuck you' too.

 

I don't condone Stannis' actions AT ALL and I will never change my mind. But that said, the more I think about it, the more I believe he's a very, very tragic character and that's why he still comes below R&R (Ramsey and Roose) for me, too. He's been told he's the only one who can save the world and by now he believes it so strongly that he feels it's his duty to accomplish what he's destined to do, whatever it takes. Which means killing his brother, his nephew or other people. He trusts Melisandre when she says that everything they do, everything the Lord of Light commands, is for the greater good. Hence, he did all those things, even though his conscience was not 100% ok with all of them (at least, that's how Stephen Dillane portrayed him: bad actions yes, but at least he's a bit tormented by them). The fact is, this time around he had to sacrifice what he loves the most. Timetoread is right mentioning the Aretha Franklin's line:

 

 

because it prefectly fits Stannis. When he'll fully realized what he did, I think he will really be devastated. .

 

I think Stannis realizes what he's done; he's just trying to accept it as the whole 'end justifies the means' since he believes that EVERYONE will die if he doesn't win. Presumably he won't get the throne and if THAT happens, IMO he will be a broken man. It's one thing to sacrifice the person you love most in order to save the world, but it's quite another to have murdered the person you love most for a false prophecy (i.e. NOTHING).

 

If he gets to that point, Brienne (or whomever) killing him would be a mercy.

Edited June 10, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Little Dove]

I went back and rewatched. They did actually say that the Targeryan's dragons got smaller over time. Looking back now, I wonder if that's some sort of allegory related to the Targeryan's dominance/skills/sanity diminishing over time as they sat on the throne. If so, Dany's dragons could end up being enormous since they're a fresh batch.

I had this theory that the dragons rose based on their threat. I don't know anything about the timing of the other dragons getting smaller, and the last long night BUT since I believe they are the ultimate force against white walkers and that threat is seemingly huge and growing from what we've seen these may be the biggest dragons yet! Laugh if you will, but the main thing that stuck out in my head for some reason was in Twilight, the werewolves kept turning younger and younger as they felt there were more vampires in the area. Their pack grew based on their threat.

[The Mormegil]

"..right? I actually looked at my husband and was all "does EVERYONE know?" Like, WTF? How the everloving fuck did Joffrey make king?"

Speaking as a person who lives in a country where there are still king and queen. And you can be thrown in jail for insulting the king. I'd say it is possible that people in the 7 kingdoms know all about the incest, gay and stuff but lack any power or authority to do anything about it and now all that changed thanks to Ceisei.

 

Robb Stark to Jaime Lannister Season 2 Ep1

 

Stannis Baratheon sent ravens to all the high lords of Westeros. King Joffrey Baratheon is neither a true king nor a true Baratheon. He's your bastard son

 

 

That's how everyone knows. Prior to that it was actually something of a secret (though some like Varys and Littlefinger would have known).

[proserpina65]

Do White Walkers need money? Do they actually need anything? I mean other than cannon fodder in the form of zombies.

 

Babies to turn into new White Walkers, now that Craster's dead?

[Constantinople]

 

...Hizdahr...Surprised he got offed by the Harpies...

Me, too, because I am pretty sure that the stuff he went to check on, before the fight, was Harpy business.

 

Nah. Hizdahr was just using the facilities.

Hizdahr's been going to the pits since forever. He knows all there is to know about them:

 

• He's a better handicapper than former champions
• He knows secret entrances and exits.
• He knows there will be an ungodly line if you wait until halftime or whatever to hit the head.

 

So do what the pros do, go before.the rush.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Constantinople

[Conan Troutman]

Laugh if you will, but the main thing that stuck out in my head for some reason was in Twilight, the werewolves kept turning younger and younger as they felt there were more vampires in the area. Their pack grew based on their threat.

 

I'm trying to imagine the outrage if Twilight would've burned that little girl.

 

Weirdly enough, the dragons on GoT look more realistic than her. Also, Davos certainly would've lusted over her on that franchise.

[LuciaMia]

 

I was pretty disappointed with Arya this week. I

Right now, the most interesting thing about her is her get-up and hair do.

[Philbert]

 

Stannis is one of the most shakespearian GoT characters, imho.

 

 

^ This.

[Conan Troutman]

Right now, the most interesting thing about her is her get-up and hair do.

 

It's kind of weird. I liked her storyline this season so far, with all the world building and stuff. But I guess I liked the Faceless Men mythology part more than Arya's development in all of this, at least so far. She really needs to own her stuff next episode and make some kind of progress.

[Lady S.]

FYI, I've updated my long viewer's guide post, which should answer some questions about Dany's marital status and other tidbits. 

[Conan Troutman]

FYI, I've updated my long viewer's guide post, which should answer some questions about Dany's marital status and other tidbits. 

 

Great stuff, why isn't this pinned?

[taanja]

Indeed.  When Tyrion described her last week as the baby girl with nothing but her name - no money, no army, no land (and when you think about it, no family, no allies, no homebase) and now she's acquired all of it.  I remembered back through the seasons and what she has been through and done to acquire these things.  She is to me the most impressive.  She was sold to a warlord king by her horrible, molesting brother and managed to get him to love AND respect her and even dispatch her brother for her.  She "birthed" the dragons - something nobody has done for centuries.  She went through the desert and chessgamed her way through three different cities against men who literally laughed in her face.  SHE, in her own plan, acquired her army.  She frees slaves and coddles dragons and makes dishonorable men honorable.  Sorry but Dany's a bad bitch!  That btw, is the highest compliment that I bestow to a fellow female - it means that I think she is smart and deserving and she has my vote.

^^^THIS!!! a thousand times this!

[iMonrey]

 

Also I'm picturing a scene where Dany is standing next to Drogon and they're having a training session where she fires arrows at 'acceptable targets' so that Drogon knows what targets are good targets to burn alive and which ones are bad.

 

And then she gives him a Milk-Bone dragon biscuit when he gets it right. Good boy!

 

 

I went back and rewatched.  They did actually say that the Targeryan's dragons got smaller over time.

 

I would assume this was from their in-breeding over the generations, since the original Targeryans arrived in Westoros with just three dragons, so all successive dragons were born from those original three.

[paigow]

And then she gives him a Milk-Bone dragon biscuit when he gets it right. Good boy!

Now available! Limited edition dwarf box, ideal for quick snacks while airborne.

[Hecate7]

I went back and rewatched.  They did actually say that the Targeryan's dragons got smaller over time.   Looking back now, I wonder if that's some sort of allegory related to the Targeryan's dominance/skills/sanity diminishing over time as they sat on the throne.   If so, Dany's dragons could end up being enormous since they're a fresh batch.

 

I think the dragons got smaller as magic disappeared from the world, and so Danaerys' dragons probably will get enormous, because as you say they are a fresh batch.

[Timetoread]

I think the dragons got smaller as magic disappeared from the world, and so Danaerys' dragons probably will get enormous, because as you say they are a fresh batch.

 

I was thinking this too.  I think the fact that hers were petrified into stone and were "decorative" eggs that nobody even thought would become real dragons signifies that they have been dormant for many centuries, perhaps even a millennia.  These might be O.G. dragons and become ENORMOUS.  I can't even summon the words to describe how much that thought excites me.  As it is, I'm only in this show at this point for the dragons and the wolves.

[Knuckles]

I've always been a Stannis fan, and I've enjoyed reading the various posters' takes on his decision to burn Shireen. Rewatching the scene, I think it is clear that Stannis is already broken, his daughter's screams will be with him always. Stephen Dillane's face as he watched the burning is totally different than the face he showed at Castle Black. This is a different man, empty now except for his determination to go forward, and finish the job.   Mel told Shireen "this will all be over quickly"...but for Stannis, it will never be over.

 

At Castle Black, did Stannis never ask Jon about secret tunnels at Winterfell? Many medieval castles had them, to escape a siege.

If Stannis is a such a superb commander, you would think he would have explored this possibility. It would give him a chance to launch a counter-raid against the Boltons, useful now that his siege engines have been burned.

 

And I so want Stannis to win at Winterfell. I want Sansa alive and the Boltons to get everything they richly deserve. That brave elderly northern woman deserves to be avenged. And please feed Myranda and the psycho harem to the dogs. After that, what happens to Stannis and the hideous Selyse is their own lookout.  Though Mel setting herself afire to hold back the undead would be a nice touch.

[NoWillToResist]

And I so want Stannis to win at Winterfell. I want Sansa alive and the Boltons to get everything they richly deserve. That brave elderly northern woman deserves to be avenged. And please feed Myranda and the psycho harem to the dogs. After that, what happens to Stannis and the hideous Selyse is their own lookout.  Though Mel setting herself afire to hold back the undead would be a nice touch.

 

I also want Stannis to defeat the Boltons at Winterfell and just erase them from existence.

 

I think the most fitting 'punishment' for Stannis will be simply discovering that he isn't the one true king, destined to save them all, and he murdered his darling daughter for nothing. I believe that would be enough for him to kill Mel with his bare hands. I'd find that immensely satisfying. :)

 

The thing that really ticks me off is that even if Mel were right (I'm assuming she's not) and this is a necessary sacrifice, would it kill her to look SAD at having to do this? Even if killing a kid saves the world, the normal reaction should be regret/sadness/sympathy at the required sacrifice. But instead, that fucking cow stands there, smug and smiling, while a child burns alive and screams in agony and fear, and it just pisses me off no end. That shit ain't right. No one should practically REJOICE at Shireen's burning.

 

I had so hoped that the whole 'burn your daughter' thing was a test. That if he capitulated, he wasn't worthy or whatever but that if he refused, he was. But I guess that's not happening. :(

Edited June 10, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Philbert]

 

I've always been a Stannis fan, and I've enjoyed reading the various posters' takes on his decision to burn Shireen. Rewatching the scene, I think it is clear that Stannis is already broken, his daughter's screams will be with him always. Stephen Dillane's face as he watched the burning is totally different than the face he showed at Castle Black. This is a different man, empty now except for his determination to go forward, and finish the job.   Mel told Shireen "this will all be over quickly"...but for Stannis, it will never be over.

 

I agree with you entirely here. Stannis is a dead man walking, but one who could still play a pivotal role in the coming struggle. He's still one of the best generals alive in Westeros, with a functioning army. I do hope that Stephan Dillane's performance here gets some appreciation at Emmy Time because I thought it was an incredible performance.