Race & Ethnicity On TV

[ribboninthesky1]

Hold on, wasn't Josephine Baker a spy in the 40s? I'mma need for people to know their American history, from which black American history need not be distinct.

 

I'm debating on whether to research this racism vs sexism debate re: Agent Carter.  Perhaps ignorance is bliss, in this regard.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Because when I've talked about this elsewhere, the reaction is sometimes, "Wait, are we talking about some random person with the same name as Tamora Pierce, or the author herself?" I think a lot of people are surprised for whatever reason that a big-time fantasy author would wade into a discussion re: a show that she has nothing to do with. I don't really get that, not like famous people can't have opinions about stuff they're not directly involved in.

 

Ah, okay, I get you now. I haven't been watching Agent Carter, although I've meant to start. If you're accusing Pierce of being racist, though, I'm not sure about that.

[Raja]

For what its worth an Asian red shirt SSR Agent was killed in the last Agent Carter episode. As before not a notice was made of his or a Black member of the 107th Regiment/Howling Commandos presence

[Bella]

Meanwhile, in the MasterChef: Junior forum, another poster brought over this link about the racism and sexism we see on that show.

 

The African American girls never get any camera time on that show! Their dishes don't get critiqued, they get almost no talking heads, nothing. It drives me nuts.

 

I personally think Gordon Ramsay is a sexist and racist ass. I don't have as strong opinions about the other two judges simply because I've seen less of them. But I think as a trio they come across as extremely biased. 

 

Yes, the cast is diverse to start with. It always starts that way. But when I look at the actual shows as they are broadcast, I see racial and gender bias. 

 

Maybe I'm being unfair and it's not the judges - in which case it's the editors.

 

Whoever it is should be ashamed of themselves.

[Dejana]

So appalled with the turn Olivia's story has taken on Scandal

She's going to be auctioned off to the highest bidder via the deep web, unless she's rescued first

. Way to prove that a more diverse writers' room leads to more racially sensitive storylines, Shonda!

[Neurochick]

I think a show like Empire that is set in a Hip Hop musical scene would easily draw a knee-jerk reaction to that, but I don't agree that it is inherently exploitative.  If anything the show is a retread of almost every glossy night-time soap that has ever graced tv and with predominantly white casts.  In fact I don't see any real difference in story content between Nashville -- set in the country music scene -- and in Empire.  Distilled to their plot elements, Nashville (with mothers in prisons, abusive parents, drug abuse, alcoholism. closeted gay performers etc.) is as soapy as Empire.  But Empire becomes the subject of a ton of think pieces, while Nashville is allowed to simply be.  What disturbs me isn't so much that people are discussing race & representation  wrt to Empire, but that its' artistic validity as a 'good' show is immediately suspect because it is predominantly cast with black characters and is set in Hip Hop.

 

 

Empire, to me, is like Dallas, Dynasty and those crazy telanovelas, complete with the dramatic background music.  And, as usual, Fox gets away with all kinds of things other networks wouldn't be able to get away with, like a character using the word "THOT."  Probably the censor person didn't even know what that word meant.

[Luciano]

I love that on The Originals, which revolves around a white family of supernatural beings, magical shenanigans involving body-hopping have led to half the family being played by black actors. It would have been so easy to just use more white actors with whatever lame excuse casting directors usually come up with, but they embraced the fact that you're not supposed to have an all-white environment in a city like New Orleans. It's a pleasant contrast to The Vampire Diaries, which sometimes appears to forget Bonnie even exists.

I'm especially happy that they changed the actor who played Finn, since the character was so boring that it was actually pointed out by others within the show; now they finally have an actor who made him so interesting and commanding that they promoted him to series regular.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Luciano

[Rick Kitchen]

Lucy Liu has started directing episodes of "Elementary".

[ApathyMonger]

Lucy Liu has started directing episodes of "Elementary".

 

She directed an episode last year too. I'm guessing the schedule doesn't allow for her to do more than one or two a season.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ApathyMonger

[Mars477]

So appalled with the turn Olivia's story has taken on Scandal

She's going to be auctioned off to the highest bidder via the deep web, unless she's rescued first

. Way to prove that a more diverse writers' room leads to more racially sensitive storylines, Shonda!

What are you talking about? Usually it's hot white women, western and east European, who are portrayed as victims of nefarious modern day slavers. (See: Taken, just a modern update on the "Damn foreigners are stealing our wimmen!" Narrative.)

[jhlipton]

I have noticed some disregard towards Abbie on Sleepy Hollow but I'm curious: do you all think it's because of race or is it because of gender? I ask because it seems like a lot of nighttime tv dramas operate under the perspective that they can only have the main focus/write on/for one woman at a time. So do you think is it a gender thing or a race thing? Or both?

Definitely a race thing. All the POC (Jenny and Frank, as well as Abbie) were pushed to the side for Katrina, Henry and Abraham. Fortunately, the latest episode (What Lies Beneath), while showing signs of being hastily written, returns the focus where it belongs.

[maraleia]

Check this out peeps http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tv-pilot-seasons-big-get-772331

Maybe the Sleepy Hollow showrunners will finally get it and return the show to it's bonkers awesome first season which just happened to focus on more POC's than white characters.

[Trini]

Interesting that article mentions America Ferrera; she's really talented, and I'm always disappointed she didn't get better/bigger/more roles after Ugly Betty because she's not the typical Hollywood beauty standard.

 

More black actors being cast is great, but I'd also like to see more Hispanic and Asian characters, too.

[manbearpig]

The article mentioned that Sandra Oh got offered some television projects! She's only been gone from Grey's Anatomy for half a season but I'm already ready for her to come back in another show. Hopefully she'll be in something good soon.

 

I was never crazy about Ugly Betty, but I really love America Ferrera on The Good Wife. She's incredibly likeable and has fun chemistry with Alan Cumming. Unfortunately she doesn't show up on that show that often.

[memememe76]

I actually think America would be great on Empire. She and Cookie would have some amazing scenes together. 

 

I wonder if cable will follow suit. Cable is a lot worse than broadcast TV. 

[cynic]

Definitely a race thing. All the POC (Jenny and Frank, as well as Abbie) were pushed to the side for Katrina, Henry and Abraham. Fortunately, the latest episode (What Lies Beneath), while showing signs of being hastily written, returns the focus where it belongs.

We were kinda debating this a bit in the Flash forum. We were talking about the writing for and the fandom reaction to the black female love interest. It got a bit heated when race was brought up with some people feeling like racism was being brought up to defend a weak character from criticism. However, most seemed to agree that there was sexism involved. I've actually noticed this before that sexism seems to be okay to discuss and people are willing to validate those opinions, but race discussions are much more challenged and scoffed at. Any idea why that is? (Not necessarily a question for you, just to the thread in general.)

Edited February 15, 2015 by cynic

[ribboninthesky1]

I read that thread.  I've learned not to bother engaging in some discussions.  From what I've observed, there's a real resistance to acknowledge intersectionality with regard to non-white female TV characters; in this context, black.  The racial aspect has to be particularly blatant to even be considered.  I noticed a similar theme toward the latter part of Sleepy Hollow's first season regarding Abbie during the TWOP days, even Scandal.  I usually limit my racial perspective to threads or forums specifically about race, as I find that people who read it are generally more open to thinking critically about it.  They may disagree, but if you're coming into a discussion about race and ethnicity, you're much more likely to be aware of and open to it. 

 

There's been conflict within feminism for decades about this, so it's not surprising to see it manifest in this form.  In some instances, it's willful blindness, in others, I think it's overall lack of empathy.  Also, I think it's really hard for some to acknowledge unconscious racial bias.  Being called a racist is such a big deal - no matter what other character flaws there may be, it's like being racially bigoted is just the worst.  People automatically shut down and get defensive if it's even hinted.  It's why I try to limit my use of the term and lean towards bigotry and racial bias, unless the discussion is about systems and institutions. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Trini]

The case with the Flash is... interesting, because the other minority characters (Joe West, Cisco) don't seem to have a problem getting good storylines.  I think bias can certainly play a role, when it comes to love interests of color.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Trini

[Raja]

The case with the Flash is... interesting, because there seems other minority characters (Joe West, Cisco) don't seem to have a problem getting good storylines.  I think bias can certainly play a role, when it comes to love interests of color.

My problem with The Flash story line is that they were presented as siblings growing up, well the white lead was a foster child, and now she is to be the eventual love interest. So there is the not quite incest angle with the opening premise that has to be backed away from. So a writer is left with how do we make this work. Like the other comic franchises, Gotham, the Marvel Universe included race seems to make no difference at all to the characters, whether it is 1940's maybe the 90s in Gotham or the present day

[ribboninthesky1]

The case with the Flash is... interesting, because there seems other minority characters (Joe West, Cisco) don't seem to have a problem getting good storylines.  I think bias can certainly play a role, when it comes to love interests of color.

 

I'm sure it helps that they're male.  Still, I don't know that Joe has much of a storyline outside of Barry.  If he weren't investigating the murder of Barry's mother again, he wouldn't be doing much outside of propping Barry up and not having scenes with Iris. But at least we get a bit of insight in what's going on in his head, even if it's still Barry-related.  Cisco (and Caitlyn) at least have something not related to Barry at all with the Firestorm subplot.  

 

A character as primarily the love interest is automatically at a disadvantage, so writers have to be savvy enough to make them as whole as possible.    Otherwise, they're just around for the lead to react to and/or be propped up by.  Unfortunately, love interests tend to be women, and when the writers are male...well, yeah.  I thought the Flash writing was weak early on - they were saved by casting talented actors who manage to rise above the material. Viewers are starting to respond to the cracks in the writing, though.  And Iris is neglected on multiple fronts - she doesn't even interact with her own father unless Barry is involved somehow.  

 

That said, I've never had a problem with Iris and Barry living under the same roof for several years.  Barry was 10 or 11, I think, when he moved in - that's fairly close to puberty.  If Barry was considerably younger, I could see the sibling-esque angle being squicky.  I keep reading people say they "grew up together," and I don't quite see it that way.  I think the most significant mistake was writing them as best friends, but have Barry treat Iris as anything but by lying about a major part of his life, among other things.       

 

Like the other comic franchises, Gotham, the Marvel Universe included race seems to make no difference at all to the characters, whether it is 1940's maybe the 90s in Gotham or the present day

 

Interesting point.  As happy as I am that Empire is doing well in the ratings (mostly because Taraji P. Henson is getting most of the shine), I'm ambivalent about the trend of casting black actors when the writing room is still largely white and/or male. Because while I don't need an after-school special on race, I think there are some racial beats that are real.  I think about Scandal (pre-season 4 at least) vs How to Get Away with Murder. Both are Shondaland shows, but the former had Shonda's hand in the writing vs the latter.  And in the former, Shonda knew how to implicitly and explicitly toss in nuggets about the reality that Olivia Pope was a black woman working and living in an upper-class, primarily white environment.  I don't see that with Annalise in the latter.  It's those kind of nuances that make a difference to the viewers who happen to be the same racial/ethnic group.   

 

I think it also ties into a point made by DearEvette about how diversity within a show is commonly the minority + white people.  It'll be interesting to see if the "diversity is good business" trend results in more prominent Asian, Native, and Hispanic roles, and if their unique experiences are ever acknowledged.

Edited February 15, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[cynic]

The case with the Flash is... interesting, because there seems other minority characters (Joe West, Cisco) don't seem to have a problem getting good storylines. I think bias can certainly play a role, when it comes to love interests of color.

I think sexism definitely plays a role, especially when it comes to CW love interests. I just think that racial bias also impacts women of color and particularly black women when they're not playing warrior roles. I think black men actually have an easier time in many ways. I would say black women have more in common with East Asian men when it comes to how rarely they're written or accepted as love interests or desirable sexual beings. I was very excited this season to see Iris in the Flash and Henry on Selfie for this reason. I just found it interesting how many people saw it as a either/or situation when I think that race and gender intersect in different ways and can have different effects depending on an actor's specific role as well. Edited February 15, 2015 by cynic

[jhlipton]

I've actually noticed this before that sexism seems to be okay to discuss and people are willing to validate those opinions, but race discussions are much more challenged and scoffed at. Any idea why that is? (Not necessarily a question for you, just to the thread in general.)

 

Gender, especially on TV, is almost always obvious and binary.  Race is never binary, and is often not obvious.  It makes it a bit more obvious when sexism is being invoked than racism.

IThere's been conflict within feminism for decades about this, so it's not surprising to see it manifest in this form.  In some instances, it's willful blindness, in others, I think it's overall lack of empathy.  Also, I think it's really hard for some to acknowledge unconscious racial bias. 

 

There's what I call "support for structural racism": supporting any part of the status quo that is inherently racist.  Saying "White boys get shot too" or showing a picture of Appalachian kids to disavow white privilege; people who do this aren't the same kind of racist as the ones making comments about the Obamas on right-wing blogs, but there is a blindness, willful or not, to how things really are. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Being called a racist is such a big deal - no matter what other character flaws there may be, it's like being racially bigoted is just the worst.  People automatically shut down and get defensive if it's even hinted.  It's why I try to limit my use of the term and lean towards bigotry and racial bias, unless the discussion is about systems and institutions. 

 

I'm of two minds about this, which is not unusual. Firstly, I do think being called a racist is a big deal, and I think it should be. The idea that words have power is meaningful to me, and 'racist' is close to the top of my personal list. I was having a random conversation with a friend recently, and I said something about how I enjoyed John Mayer's music. My friend proceeded to metaphorically slam Mayer into the ground, calling him a racist dickbag based on an incident she heard about second-hand from someone I'm not acquainted with. Needless to say, I will not be mentioning John Mayer to her anymore.

 

Conversely, I think there's something to the idea that the current social climate doesn't really allow for much leeway in discussions about race. Anyone who suggests that a lot of those examples of white people on TV are examples of white people being assholes (Don Draper, Walter White, Gemma Teller, the entire Barone family, the cast of Seinfeld and sometimes Friends) don't matter because what's important is numbers. I'm not entirely sure that's true. I think that the kind of representation seen on TV also matters. and while I really enjoy Don and Gemma as characters, I would certainly not want to hang out with them. I also don't think TV characters have to be exactly like me or be relatable to my life for me to like them. As someone else said in this thread (I think), I know what it's like to be me, and my life is boring. But if positive examples matter, shouldn't they matter for everyone?

[cynic]

I don't think the issue is just about having positive examples. I think the issue is when all/most examples are negative with nothing to counterbalance them. If minorities were given as many and as wide of a variety of roles that are well written and display many different character traits as white actors, no one would complain that some of them were negative.

[jhlipton]

 If minorities were given as many and as wide of a variety of roles that are well written and display many different character traits as white actors, no one would complain that some of them were negative.

 

What made Julia stand out is that Diahann Carroll wasn't playing a maid.  By time Good Times came around, blacks were portraying all other professions, so having a black maid wasn't as big a deal.

 

In the same way, if all we get now are gangstas and the like, it's pretty weak.  If the negative characters are a minority, then it's no big thing.

[allyw]

A lot of people have racial bias but don't want to admit it because to do so they think they'll be associated with the KKK who they think they are above. I remember a board I used to visit a few years ago where one poster hated pretty much every minority female character that were ever discussed especially if there was ever any perceived intent that they may become a love interest for a white male but would get outrage at police brutality against minorities.

[Bean421]

Between Olivia Pope and Abbie Mills, I just might need to turn off my television for the week.

[ribboninthesky1]

A lot of people have racial bias but don't want to admit it because to do so they think they'll be associated with the KKK who they think they are above. I remember a board I used to visit a few years ago where one poster hated pretty much every minority female character that were ever discussed especially if there was ever any perceived intent that they may become a love interest for a white male but would get outrage at police brutality against minorities.

 

There's that intersection of race and gender.  Police brutality of minorities are commonly men, usually black (even though, historically, black women have been brutalized as well as Latino men and women). The latter is blatant bigotry and racism at work.  Seeing black women and girls in fulfilling, healthy relationships and/or viewed as sexually desirable, especially with/by white men, seems to disturb some.  Never mind that white relationships and beauty are subtly validated all the time on TV.

 

Gender, especially on TV, is almost always obvious and binary.  Race is never binary, and is often not obvious.  It makes it a bit more obvious when sexism is being invoked than racism.

 

There's what I call "support for structural racism": supporting any part of the status quo that is inherently racist.  Saying "White boys get shot too" or showing a picture of Appalachian kids to disavow white privilege; people who do this aren't the same kind of racist as the ones making comments about the Obamas on right-wing blogs, but there is a blindness, willful or not, to how things really are. 

 

Race is never binary? I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially in context of how viewers react to actions by TV characters.

Edited February 17, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[jhlipton]

Gender is binary in the sense that there are two genders (I'm talking only about TV, where things like which gender a person display as is almost always their anatomical gender and their desired gender). That's why I used gender instead of sex -- the different types of sexuality is a whole 'nother discussion.

Race on the other hand is several continuums. Zoe Saldana is not the same color as Viola Davis (just to pick two random examples.) The amount of browm, red, yellow and other colors is wonderfully wide-ranging.

I wasn't talking about how people react, just how gender and race are perceived.

[Raja]

Gender is binary in the sense that there are two genders (I'm talking only about TV, where things like which gender a person display as is almost always their anatomical gender and their desired gender). That's why I used gender instead of sex -- the different types of sexuality is a whole 'nother discussion.

Race on the other hand is several continuums. Zoe Saldana is not the same color as Viola Davis (just to pick two random examples.) The amount of browm, red, yellow and other colors is wonderfully wide-ranging.

I wasn't talking about how people react, just how gender and race are perceived.

Curiously as a late baby boomer I would consider Zoe Saldana and Viola Davis as being in the same race. Hearing my grandmother use colored her entire life and using Negro, Afro American, Black and African American in my lifetime and seeing white flight and their return to my childhood neighborhood I and still amazed at the changes made in our perception

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Curiously as a late baby boomer I would consider Zoe Saldana and Viola Davis as being in the same race. Hearing my grandmother use colored her entire life and using Negro, Afro American, Black and African American in my lifetime and seeing white flight and their return to my childhood neighborhood I and still amazed at the changes made in our perception

 

I would also consider Saldana and Davis to be the same race, but that as a society I think the lightness/darkness of individual skin color still affects things, maybe more in the opinion of minorities than in that of whites. When "typical standards of beauty" comes up, it will likely be mentioned that lighter-skinned black women are stereotypically thought of as more beautiful, because they more closely resemble white women. Or that seems to be the theory, anyway. I don't believe that people are a monolith, or that we all conform to one way of thinking, particularly not in the modern age. With the advent of the internet, there's more chances than ever for people to connect and get to know one another.

 

My father also grew up using the word 'colored', which you're not allowed to say anymore (just ask Benedict Cumberbatch), and maybe that's for the best. Conversely, I haven't heard 'colored' in years, at least not in that capacity. It would be as if someone called me a honky, and to my knowledge that hasn't happened in the entire forty-five years I've been on the planet. In sort of the same way, the word 'exotic' has been IMO corrupted a bit to mean something, if not out and out racist, then at least suspect. As I said in my earlier post, I think words do and should have power, but OTOH without the ability to read minds we never know what someone's intention is if they don't tell us.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Ronin Jackson]

Something just occurred to me about The Walking Dead. The show has done a decent job as far as race goes... better than a lot of shows on television. It features one of the most prominent Asian American characters... actually THE most prominent... on television, who is also the romantic companion to she shows most attractive (subjectively of course) female character. There are also a number of African American characters. But there are two characters on the "can't kill or the fans riot" list... the two adult under 50 year old white guys. Daryl's presence especially has kept other characters relegated... characters who have been much more prominent in the comics. The show needs to kill him just so they can breathe some life into the other male characters (the female characters are another story). But in this case, it's the fans that have made it known they won't stand for it. I'd love to think Rick and Daryl's popularity have nothing to do with them being the two prominent white males on the show... but, frankly I know better. So the show deserves credit, but all the minorities are on the revolving door death pool while the white men aren't. One one hand, celebrate the baby steps, but on the other... that sucks.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Something just occurred to me about The Walking Dead. The show has done a decent job as far as race goes... better than a lot of shows on television. It features one of the most prominent Asian American characters... actually THE most prominent... on television, who is also the romantic companion to she shows most attractive (subjectively of course) female character. There are also a number of African American characters. But there are two characters on the "can't kill or the fans riot" list... the two adult under 50 year old white guys. Daryl's presence especially has kept other characters relegated... characters who have been much more prominent in the comics. The show needs to kill him just so they can breathe some life into the other male characters (the female characters are another story). But in this case, it's the fans that have made it known they won't stand for it. I'd love to think Rick and Daryl's popularity have nothing to do with them being the two prominent white males on the show... but, frankly I know better. So the show deserves credit, but all the minorities are on the revolving door death pool while the white men aren't. One one hand, celebrate the baby steps, but on the other... that sucks.

I dunno. I'd definitely add Michonne to the riot list.

[LeeLeePanda]

A lot of people have racial bias but don't want to admit it because to do so they think they'll be associated with the KKK who they think they are above. I remember a board I used to visit a few years ago where one poster hated pretty much every minority female character that were ever discussed especially if there was ever any perceived intent that they may become a love interest for a white male but would get outrage at police brutality against minorities.

I agree. This reminds me of how much people hated Tara on True Blood. She wasn't a perfect character and I can understand why she rubbed people the wrong way. It just seemed like some fans took it to another level, and the hate had an ugly racial undercurrent. Yet I'm sure those same people would say that they couldn't possible be racist. Most of them would cite how much they loved Lafayette as an example.

Mercedes on Glee was treated similarly. There was lots of coded language used about why she wasn't as talented as Rachel, how she didn't deserve any solos. She was too fat and too lazy. How it wasn't realistic for Sam, a handsome white guy, to be head over heals in love with her. Again, the character isn't perfect but some people take the hate to another level.

[jhlipton]

[]

That's what I'm getting at, where the trope of Not Too Black exists. I mean Zoe Saldana to portray Nina Simone -- come on! There are plenty of women who look FAR more like Simone; Nicole Beharie has shown she's a talented actress and can sing as well.

This is what I mean about "binary": there would be no debate if Ruben Studdard were cast as Simone; there is a great deal of debate about the casting of Soldana.

[Ronin Jackson]

I dunno. I'd definitely add Michonne to the riot list.

 

Fair enough.... that katana is pretty appealing.  But with that exception Glenn, Tyreese, et al. have certainly been relegated due to Daryl's fixed right hand man status.  I guess to clarify my point... a character like Glenn holds an important place in the world of television because there are so few Asian American characters like him on television.  That's not something that I'd suspect most fans of the show or the show runners value much... and it inevitably places him higher on the death list than Daryl, a character who, for better or worse, is a dime a dozen type on television.  It'd be nice to see his character grow and his role expand instead of him running out of story and end up on ice, but the latter is likely to happen because Daryl is a glass ceiling.  

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[ribboninthesky1]

[]

That's what I'm getting at, where the trope of Not Too Black exists. I mean Zoe Saldana to portray Nina Simone -- come on! There are plenty of women who look FAR more like Simone; Nicole Beharie has shown she's a talented actress and can sing as well.

This is what I mean about "binary": there would be no debate if Ruben Studdard were cast as Simone; there is a great deal of debate about the casting of Soldana.

 

I don't think Beharie is much different in skin tone than Saldana (though agreed on more talented).  I remember when the controversy first erupted, there was online discussion of how Gina Torres was a closer phenotype to Simone than Saldana because of her facial features, even though she's clearly lighter in skin tone.  It reminded me of a discussion back on the TWOP thread several years ago on skin shade vs other west African phenotypes.  Plus, I assumed that the use of prosthetic (and the tacky result) added fuel to the fire. Not to mention some of Zoe's...less than enlightened comments on black women in Hollywood shortly before news of the Nina Simone casting became public.   

 

I'll agree to disagree on the race isn't binary thing.  Thinking on it further - given the one drop rule, the history of biracial/mixed actresses portraying non-biracial black female characters, and those who can't pass for white automatically declared/assumed black, I think race can indeed be binary.  I understand where you're coming from on the matter of skin tone, though. 

[jhlipton]

I'll agree to disagree on the race isn't binary thing.  Thinking on it further - given the one drop rule, the history of biracial/mixed actresses portraying non-biracial black female characters, and those who can't pass for white automatically declared/assumed black, I think race can indeed be binary.  I understand where you're coming from on the matter of skin tone, though. 

 

With the above in mind, I see where you're coming from as well.

One thing to consider though, is that there are a variety of skin tones: reds and yellows, by themselves or mixed together.  Race is such a social construct -- that's one reason we have so many different views about it.

 

[Gender is to a lesser extent a social construct: what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" (not to mention Storm Large's great question: "What the F**k is Ladylike?")?  One of my best friends is a gorgeous trans-woman.  Although anatomically "male" at birth, she was filled with self-loathing until she started the process of becoming her true self., But it's still more binary, by and large, than race.]

I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am.

[xaxat]

Ken Jeong Comedy ‘Dr. Ken’ Gets Official Pilot Pickup At ABC

 

The Shondaverse, Blackish, Fresh Off the Boat, American Crime, Cristela, a development deal for Priyanka Chopra. . . I really wonder what ABC exec(s) is greenlighting these projects.

Edited February 19, 2015 by xaxat

[DearEvette]

I agree. This reminds me of how much people hated Tara on True Blood. She wasn't a perfect character and I can understand why she rubbed people the wrong way. It just seemed like some fans took it to another level, and the hate had an ugly racial undercurrent. Yet I'm sure those same people would say that they couldn't possible be racist. Most of them would cite how much they loved Lafayette as an example.

Mercedes on Glee was treated similarly. There was lots of coded language used about why she wasn't as talented as Rachel, how she didn't deserve any solos. She was too fat and too lazy. How it wasn't realistic for Sam, a handsome white guy, to be head over heals in love with her. Again, the character isn't perfect but some people take the hate to another level.

 

 

The hateration of Tara to me is analogous to that mass hysteria hoodoo Mary Ann put on everyone in Season 2.  I could see no reason for such unreasoning dislike for her, except for the knee-jerk blind dislike that somehow comes into play with WOC in genre fandom.

 

But I lay the Mercedes thing squarely at the feet of Ryan Murphy.  He wrote actual episodes that rather explicitly jibed at Mercedes' weight and her work ethic. I mean, come on, one whole episode was about her trying to find  tater tots.  There was also another episode that seemed to draw a contrast to Mercedes 'laziness' and sense of entitlement because of her 'natural' talent versus Rachel's hard work and go-getter attitude.

[Raja]

.   

 

I'll agree to disagree on the race isn't binary thing.  Thinking on it further - given the one drop rule, the history of biracial/mixed actresses portraying non-biracial black female characters, and those who can't pass for white automatically declared/assumed black, I think race can indeed be binary.  I understand where you're coming from on the matter of skin tone, though. 

It isn't binary, However those perceived to have "one drop" of an African's blood where subject to extra special treatment from the government(s) only Blacks were segregated in the armed forces except for the special Japanese case for a federal example, as well as the genral population.

[Rockstar99435]

The hateration of Tara to me is analogous to that mass hysteria hoodoo Mary Ann put on everyone in Season 2.  I could see no reason for such unreasoning dislike for her, except for the knee-jerk blind dislike that somehow comes into play with WOC in genre fandom.

But I lay the Mercedes thing squarely at the feet of Ryan Murphy.  He wrote actual episodes that rather explicitly jibed at Mercedes' weight and her work ethic. I mean, come on, one whole episode was about her trying to find  tater tots.  There was also another episode that seemed to draw a contrast to Mercedes 'laziness' and sense of entitlement because of her 'natural' talent versus Rachel's hard work and go-getter attitude.

 

I blame the writers for the Tara hate. The first time we meet Tara, she was at work but instead of working, she was sitting around, doing nothing. Then when a customer asks her for help, Tara screamed at the lady, called her stupid, and then accused her of being racist. Then, the next time we see Tara, she's at Merlott's and some guy tells her he likes her name and she responds by screaming at him and accusing him of being racist because her mom named her after the plantation from Gone with the Wind and apparently he was supposed to psychically know that. By the time the writers finally got around to writing her as anything other than an angry stereotype, the audience's mind was already made up.

[Wax Lion]

I actually liked Tara when she was introduced. I may have been blinded by her Naomi Klein book. I think the first problem with Tara was that she was where the show's terrible writing first struck, as she was pulled to the side for the Maryann storyline (which also conveniently let them forget about her crush on the show's white heartthrob Jason) and she was always stuck with the worst parts of TB's plots. I felt like they started with a fun idea for the character but got nervous about doing too much with her.

 

Along those lines I was never sure if it was race or sexuality that made Lafayette's sexuality so muted, for a show created and run by a gay man, the hottest moments of gay male sexuality involved straight white guys.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

But I lay the Mercedes thing squarely at the feet of Ryan Murphy.  He wrote actual episodes that rather explicitly jibed at Mercedes' weight and her work ethic. I mean, come on, one whole episode was about her trying to find  tater tots.  There was also another episode that seemed to draw a contrast to Mercedes 'laziness' and sense of entitlement because of her 'natural' talent versus Rachel's hard work and go-getter attitude.

 

I actually only watched True Blood while Michelle Forbes, who I have a long-standing crush on, played MaryAnn, and then I stopped because I couldn't deal with hearing 'Sucky' every time someone said 'Sookie' (don't ask). I can't really speak to whether or not Tara got an inordinate amount of hate, as I didn't really participate in online stuff about the show. I wasn't really that invested except for Forbes, and once her character was killed off I quit watching.

 

However, when I was still watching ]Glee, it wasn't just Mercedes whose weight was always being poked at, but also white, male Finn's. For quite a while, Finn 's weight was a common source of humor, usually with Santana telling the jokes. When he finally snapped because of her merciless jabs and outed her as a lesbian in front of half the school, Santana was painted as the sympathetic one while Finn was the bullying oaf who hurt her feelings. I can no longer remember if Mercedes ever fought back in such a fashion, and I'm not saying Finn's behavior was awesome, but Santana quite happily participated in whatever war there was between herself and Finn.

[Snowprince]

What made Julia stand out is that Diahann Carroll wasn't playing a maid.  By time Good Times came around, blacks were portraying all other professions, so having a black maid wasn't as big a deal.

 

 

I also remember the flack Diahann Carroll got from a sizable segment of the Black community for playing a nurse/professional, as if being an upper middle class character was somehow selling out and thus a bad thing. "Julia's not "black" enough". Julia's not "keeping it real". Julia's not a true reflection of the "black experience". Julia's "acting White". "Julia's an Oreo". Yes, I heard all that. I'm still hearing it about NFL quarterbacks Russell Wilson and Robert Griffin III. 

 

My only question is, what constitutes "black" enough and who gets to make that determination?

Edited February 20, 2015 by Snowprince

[jhlipton]

My only question is, what constitutes "black" enough and who gets to make that determination?

 

The Rolling Stones.  No wait, that's rough enough or tough enough.  Never mind!

[ethalfrida]

I also remember the flack Diahann Carroll got from a sizable segment of the Black community for playing a nurse/professional, as if being an upper middle class character was somehow selling out and thus a bad thing. "Julia's not "black" enough". Julia's not "keeping it real". Julia's not a true reflection of the "black experience". Julia's "acting White". "Julia's an Oreo". Yes, I heard all that. I'm still hearing it about NFL quarterbacks Russell Wilson and Robert Griffin III. 

 

My only question is, what constitutes "black" enough and who gets to make that determination?

IIRC, the flack came because she played a nurse who lived in an expensive high rise not because she was a nurse. But the other things came because the story lines were a tad bit unreal for a Black woman in this society at that time. Happy to say I wasn't one of the flackers but I certainly understood what it was all about.

[ribboninthesky1]

With the above in mind, I see where you're coming from as well.

One thing to consider though, is that there are a variety of skin tones: reds and yellows, by themselves or mixed together.  Race is such a social construct -- that's one reason we have so many different views about it.

 

[Gender is to a lesser extent a social construct: what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" (not to mention Storm Large's great question: "What the F**k is Ladylike?")?  One of my best friends is a gorgeous trans-woman.  Although anatomically "male" at birth, she was filled with self-loathing until she started the process of becoming her true self., But it's still more binary, by and large, than race.]

I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am.

 

I agree with race being a social construct, as is gender.  But your original post stated that gender is binary (and obvious), race is not. I acknowledge that there are various skin shades of blackness. I disagree that's necessarily evidence that race is never binary.  I believe it can be, and I also believe it contributes to lack of empathy about where racism and sexism intersect.  It's usually one or the other, but not both.  And that's why you have threads like Iris West where sexism can be openly discussed, but not racial bias. 

 

On a somewhat related note, there have been legitimate concerns about the binary nature of diversity on TV as well as race discussions, including on this thread if memory serves, by those who are Asian, Native, biracial, mixed, etc.       

[Raja]

IIRC, the flack came because she played a nurse who lived in an expensive high rise not because she was a nurse. But the other things came because the story lines were a tad bit unreal for a Black woman in this society at that time. Happy to say I wasn't one of the flackers but I certainly understood what it was all about.

15 years later I noticed the fancy Marina Del Rey digs of CHP officers Jon and Ponch and just about every other TV character outside of Hill Street Blues living the high life. In any case Julia was a bit before my time

[Cobalt Stargazer]

15 years later I noticed the fancy Marina Del Rey digs of CHP officers Jon and Ponch and just about every other TV character outside of Hill Street Blues living the high life. In any case Julia was a bit before my time

 

On The Rockford Files, which was three years before ChiPS, Jim lived in a seedy trailer on the beach. He did drive a Firebird, but considering how often his clients never paid up, he wasn't living the high life by any means. I never watched Julia (not my kind of show), but considering the later flack The Cosby Show got about the Huxtables being upper middle class and how they weren't "keeping it real", I can only imagine that it was much the same for that show.