Race & Ethnicity On TV

[topanga]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:09 PM, Trini said:

Her hair is NOT the same color as her skin, and there's no good reason why we can't see half her face in a DAYTIME scene.

Those photos are horrible— and sadly, typical. 

That’s one of the reasons why shows like “Queen Sugar” and “Insecure” were lauded for their cinematography. People of color were properly lit. That’s it. 

But the result was beautiful, and it was a refreshing change from the norm. 

[DearEvette]

Yikes. Yikes. Yikes.  There is a new book coming out by Mo Ryan and she has written an article about some of the stuff in the book on Vanity Fair about behind the scenes stuff on Lost.  I never got into Lost but holy man, it sounds like atmosphere horrible, toxic, sexist and racist as fuck.  It really makes Damon Lindelof  look really, really bad.

The Vanity Fair article is riveting reading and really rather sickening. 

A few things that jumped out at me:

Quote

The writing staff was told repeatedly who the “hero characters” were: Locke, Jack, Kate, and Sawyer, all of whom were white. “It’s not that they didn’t write stories for Sayid [an Iraqi character] or Sun and Jin [Korean characters],” the source added. Still, they recalled comments like “Nobody cares about these other characters. Just give them a few scenes on another beach.”

 

and

Harold Perrineau talking about how he was fired from ‘LOST’ after he asked that POC characters receive more storytelling. “

Quote

Perrineau recalled. “I was like, ‘Wait a minute, what’s happening?’ [Cuse] said, ‘Well, you know, you said to us, if we don’t have anything good for you, you want to go.’ I was just asking for equal depth.” According to Perrineau, the response from Cuse was, “ ‘Well, you said you don’t have enough work here, so we’re letting you go.’ ” I observed that the response seemed to indicate royal displeasure. Perrineau agreed: “It was all very much, ‘How dare you?’ ”

And

The writer's room being a racist cesspit

Quote

In answer to a question about the luggage, one writer—using a Yiddish word—said, “Let the schvartze take it.”

The only Asian American writer was called Korean, as in, “Korean, take the board.”

There was apparently some discomfort around the show’s cleaning staff using the bathroom in the Lost offices, and there were “jokes” about “putting up a Whites Only sign.”

And so much worse...

The discussion with the showrunners regarding how Mr, Eko's death would be written (Mr. Eko was played by black actor Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje who wanted to leave the show)
 

Quote

 

The conversation that took place when Owusu-Breen and her writing partner got feedback from Cuse on their episode was not normal. The showrunner, it seemed, had been thinking about how Mr. Eko should die.

“Carlton said something to the effect of, ‘I want to hang him from the highest tree. God, if we could only cut his dick off and shove it down his throat.’ At which point I said, ‘You may want to temper the lynching imagery, lest you offend.’ And I was very clearly angry,” Owusu-Breen remembered.

 

 

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Carlton said something to the effect of, ‘I want to hang him from the highest tree. God, if we could only cut his dick off and shove it down his throat.’

Holy Shit! There is a discussion on one of the threads about how Archie Bunker's racist, sexist, etc shit wouldn't work today. Maybe not ON television, but behind the scenes, and sadly, in real life... that kind of mentality still exists and it is terrifying. 

I have to admit that as a white woman I never really gave much thought to the fact that the major storylines on Lost all went to the white characters. Sadly, it just seemed normal and I always thought it was impressive that they had such a diverse cast. But now I realize it was only visually diverse and was a pretty damned white show. :(

Won't be watching anything else from Cuse. Even without the racism indicated in wanting to hang the character from a tree is the very scary violent reaction he seems to have had about an actor wanting to leave his precious show. YIKES! It's just a show dude, and actors who aren't getting to do much acting want out. No need to lynch or castrate their characters. That's just a tad extreme.

[Lugal]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 

The Vanity Fair article is riveting reading and really rather sickening.

Wow!  That's truly horrible.  But it explains a lot.  I gave up on Lost around the end of the second season although I noticed the shift about midway through season 1.  It kinda fits with the overall undercurrent of the show that there was a contempt for the characters and even the audience (I remember reading somewhere that if the audience guessed one of their mysteries right, they would change it).  It annoyed me how vaunted that show was when things like the storylines mentioned in the article (usually minority and female) were just dropped and characters killed off when they were developing toward something interesting.

Interesting about Cuse, a man of limited talent.  I loved The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. back in the 90's but that show was all over the place in terms of its central overarching mystery (which changed weekly).

I really hate the idea that seems to have taken hold: that genius is this rare wonderful thing that must be nurtured above all else, and if a few of the "little people" get hurt in the process, well, that's the price we have to pay to be so blessed.  But the reality is, talent and genius are common, we just don't nurture them enough.  Look how many talented writers went through the Lost writing rooms only to be chewed up and spit out.  And how many others out there never got a chance?  And I would also argue it wasn't Lindelof and Cuse that made that show a hit, it was the actors, writers and all the other crew that put in the work.

[Annber03]

Quote

 

There was apparently some discomfort around the show’s cleaning staff using the bathroom in the Lost offices, and there were “jokes” about “putting up a Whites Only sign.”

 

Woooooooooooooooow. What. The. Fuck? 

I've never seen "LOST", and the only thing I've seen that Cuse was involved with was "Bates Motel", but he wasn't the only one involved with that show and I think Kerry Ehrin, who also worked on the show, had a lot more of a presence there, so that probably helped with that show. 

But damn. Those snippets are...something. I feel for the people who had to experience all that crap, and I'm glad their stories are finally getting heard and shared. 

[possibilities]

So is he blacklisted and will never work again? Or is he gloating that he can do whatever he wants because all we do is clutch our pearls? 

Surely we can find talented people who are not repulsive bigots, and let them make better shows. But the execs look the other way, so this crap goes on year after year and only gets talked about after the ratings drop and the show is long ago cancelled anyway. 

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

Interesting about Cuse, a man of limited talent.  I loved The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. back in the 90's but that show was all over the place in terms of its central overarching mystery (which changed weekly).

My love of that show is about 97.7% Bruce Campbell. 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

But damn. Those snippets are...something. I feel for the people who had to experience all that crap, and I'm glad their stories are finally getting heard and shared

 

Yeah I never gave this show half a thought but I've always liked Mo Ryan.  One thing that I really respect is that she discloses that she has a quasi-professional friendship with Lindelof.  And in her conversations with him, he did not let her relationship with him color how she portrays him.  She holds his feet to the fire and challenges him on his statements.  It is a really good example of how journalism should work. 

To his credit he does not 100%  refute anything.  Sure he is 'shocked' and 'appalled' and even more damning to me, apparently 'oblivious' to the hazing the POC and women writers went through on the daily, but at least he is owning some of it.

Cuse, otoh, just sounds like a petty shit.  It kinda tracks that the real shit show started when he got hired onto the show.  And in typical fashion everything everyone else is saying is a lie.  But, again, Mo with her meticulousness got at least two people to back each other up on those stories. 

There is a one of the writers on twitter right now who is coming with even more receipts.  Not only does Cuse come off as a racist POS but it sounds like he routinely took credit for other people's work on the show.

Also he whines "I am just hearing about this! nobody complained!"  How long have you worked in this industry?  You can't be that naive.  Of course POC writers were not going to complain against a powerful white showrunner.  They know that if they did, it would result in nothing but them being labeled difficult and blackballed. 

Lindelof is already doing the first lap of his apology tour with a lot of public mea culpas.  Cuse, though, I really hope this does him some damage.

[Guest]

I don’t think I made it through a single season of Lost once I realized how little attention the character of color were given. I found Jack and Kate bland so it held little appeal. So I started reading thinking it wouldn’t surprise me but I couldn’t have been more wrong. 

It also really impacts my opinion of those writers who stuck around to the final season. Although I’m really only familiar with Horowitz and Kitsis and they earned a spot on my never watch anything made by them all on their own with their handling of Once Upon a Time. 

[angora]

While the stories shared in the article were horrific to read, it made sense to me. I did watch all of Lost, and my favorite characters were Sayid, Jin, Sun, Desmond, Richard, and Miles--"X needs more screentime!" was a constant takeaway for me. I stuck around because the actors could spin gold out of crumbs, but it was frustrating to spend endless episodes on the love triangle or Jack vs. Locke drama when Sayid was such a smart, capable badass and Sun and Jin could make people cry during a 100% subtitled scene on a primetime network show in the early 2000s.

[LadyAmalthea]

That article is a whole big yikes. I’m certainly interested in the whole book, especially as on Twitter Ryan names Sleepy Hollow as another show she was interested in writing about.

It took courage for Harold Perrineau and others to go on the record about this. I only watched the first season of Lost but the part about his character’s son really got me, from having to challenge the script to Malcolm David Kelley being written off because he had a growth spurt. Aren’t they on a magic mysterious island where such issues can easily be written into the show? SMH.

 

[Anduin]

4 hours ago, LadyAmalthea said:

It took courage for Harold Perrineau and others to go on the record about this. I only watched the first season of Lost but the part about his character’s son really got me, from having to challenge the script to Malcolm David Kelley being written off because he had a growth spurt. Aren’t they on a magic mysterious island where such issues can easily be written into the show? SMH.

On Star Trek: Deep Space 9, Cirroc Lofton really sprouted. As I remember, nothing was made of it, he got the same amount of screen time as before, he was just taller. These things happen. They're only a big deal if you decide to make a big deal.

[possibilities]

I never watched LOST, but I watched Sleepy Hollow and... don't get me started. 

 

[DearEvette]

2 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I never watched LOST, but I watched Sleepy Hollow and... don't get me started. 

 

Same.  I saw on her book blurb she interviewed Orlando Jones.  And one of the writers on that show already has gone on record before about how the Fox execs tried to gaslight her about Nikkie Beharie.

[peachmangosteen]

At this point, I'm just gonna assume every showrunner is a borderline monster.

[AstridM]

14 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Woooooooooooooooow. What. The. Fuck? 

I've never seen "LOST", and the only thing I've seen that Cuse was involved with was "Bates Motel", but he wasn't the only one involved with that show and I think Kerry Ehrin, who also worked on the show, had a lot more of a presence there, so that probably helped with that show. 

But damn. Those snippets are...something. I feel for the people who had to experience all that crap, and I'm glad their stories are finally getting heard and shared. 

So glad I never watched Lost!

[MissAlmond]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I never watched LOST, but I watched Sleepy Hollow and... don't get me started. 

 

To this day Pepperidge Farms remembers what went down with Sleepy Hollow and will never forgive that writer's room. Their names are seared in my memory like The Count of Monte Crisco never forgetting those behind sending him to prison. 

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, LadyAmalthea said:

That article is a whole big yikes. I’m certainly interested in the whole book, especially as on Twitter Ryan names Sleepy Hollow as another show she was interested in writing about.

It took courage for Harold Perrineau and others to go on the record about this. I only watched the first season of Lost but the part about his character’s son really got me, from having to challenge the script to Malcolm David Kelley being written off because he had a growth spurt. Aren’t they on a magic mysterious island where such issues can easily be written into the show? SMH.

 

4 hours ago, Anduin said:

On Star Trek: Deep Space 9, Cirroc Lofton really sprouted. As I remember, nothing was made of it, he got the same amount of screen time as before, he was just taller. These things happen. They're only a big deal if you decide to make a big deal.

I mean, children grow. That's what they do. You would think that anyone hiring a child actor for a show they hope and expect to run for a number of years would be aware of that fact and factor it into their plans!

I'm glad I never got into Lost. I caught a few episodes in the first season (I loved Sun and Jin) but it quickly became apparent that it wasn't the show I'd expected it to be, going in, so I lost interest.

(The blurb I saw just said it was a show about survivors of a plane crash having to work together to survive on a remote island and I really liked the idea of that show - strangers thrown together, having to cooperate to survive. But it became clear that the show was going down a more mysterious, mystical route, and I wasn't getting attached to the lead characters or their problems at all, the characters I did like barely seemed to feature, so I bailed.)

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, MissAlmond said:

To this day Pepperidge Farms remembers what went down with Sleepy Hollow and will never forgive that writer's room. Their names are seared in my memory like The Count of Monte Crisco never forgetting those behind sending him to prison. 

Do you know which showrunner wanted to bone Katia Winter by any chance?  Because my beef is with whichever one that was and I hope Katia turned his ass down.  I really hope she laughed in his face after being forced to wear her season two costumes plus the hair and makeup they made her wear.  

[MissAlmond]

28 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Do you know which showrunner wanted to bone Katia Winter by any chance

I have no concrete proof and it's probably not a good thing to openly accuse someone when I don't. I'll DM you.

Edited May 31, 2023 by MissAlmond

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, MissAlmond said:

I have no concrete proof, but my guess would be

  Hide contents

Mark Goffman

. He was Season 2 showrunner. 

*I put the name behind spoilers because - as I said - I have no proof. It's simply my best guess from remembering his interviews at the time. 

Thanks. I bailed on season 2 because it was sooooo obvious.  

[Guest]

11 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Same.  I saw on her book blurb she interviewed Orlando Jones.  And one of the writers on that show already has gone on record before about how the Fox execs tried to gaslight her about Nikkie Beharie.

Now I’m definitely going to get the book. What they did to Orlando Jones was such an obvious red flag that by the time they screwed Beharie I wasn’t surprised. 

Now that these stories are coming out it you can see how much the issues bleed onto the screen. It’s sad how many shows I suspect had similar problems and would like to see more information come out. Like The Walking Dead which so obviously had a one Black male character at a time policy. Person of Interest, Once Upon a Time, Grimm and A Million Little Things are ones that immediately come to mind. All shows that sidelined fan favorite minority characters in favor of less interesting characters and problematic storylines.  
The Arrowverse shows could probably be a book all by themselves. 

[Enigma X]

The stuff on Lost makes me sad because it was my favorite show for a long time.

[LadyAmalthea]

14 hours ago, Dani said:

Now I’m definitely going to get the book. What they did to Orlando Jones was such an obvious red flag that by the time they screwed Beharie I wasn’t surprised. 

Now that these stories are coming out it you can see how much the issues bleed onto the screen. It’s sad how many shows I suspect had similar problems and would like to see more information come out. Like The Walking Dead which so obviously had a one Black male character at a time policy. Person of Interest, Once Upon a Time, Grimm and A Million Little Things are ones that immediately come to mind. All shows that sidelined fan favorite minority characters in favor of less interesting characters and problematic storylines.  
The Arrowverse shows could probably be a book all by themselves. 

Weren't the OuaT showrunners also Lost writers? The rotten fruit not falling far and all that...

[Zella]

1 hour ago, LadyAmalthea said:

Weren't the OuaT showrunners also Lost writers? The rotten fruit not falling far and all that...

Person of Interest also had some Lost overlap behind the scenes, though not the people being directly singled out. Still, there definitely seems to have been some bullshit going down backstage on multiple fronts on POI.  

Edited June 1, 2023 by Zella

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, Dani said:

Now I’m definitely going to get the book. What they did to Orlando Jones was such an obvious red flag that by the time they screwed Beharie I wasn’t surprised. 

Now that these stories are coming out it you can see how much the issues bleed onto the screen. It’s sad how many shows I suspect had similar problems and would like to see more information come out. Like The Walking Dead which so obviously had a one Black male character at a time policy. Person of Interest, Once Upon a Time, Grimm and A Million Little Things are ones that immediately come to mind. All shows that sidelined fan favorite minority characters in favor of less interesting characters and problematic storylines.  
The Arrowverse shows could probably be a book all by themselves. 

I'm going to get it too. I knew about the other shows but not LOST. Looking at the other shows I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I am.

[Trini]

Buckle your seatbelts?

 

[MissAlmond]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Buckle your seatbelts?

 

Mo Ryan better not disappoint. I've been waiting years for this day to come. Bring it!

Edited June 1, 2023 by MissAlmond

[Guest]

This is somewhat comforting. At least there are some positive examples out there. 

 

[PepSinger]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:45 AM, Dani said:

Person of Interest, Once Upon a Time, Grimm and A Million Little Things

What happened on AMLT?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PepSinger said:

What happened on AMLT?

I have no clue if anything happened behind the scenes but when I was watching it fit the pattern of a show that underused the more popular non-white characters and propped up a much less interesting character that the audience did not like. Although I did stop watching after the first season after being burned by the same pattern with the other shows, so it may have gotten better. But what I’ve seen about where they went with Regina didn’t make me want to start watching again.  

[krankydoodle]

Like a lot of people here, I've been eagerly awaiting the Sleepy Hollow portion of Maureen Ryan's new book:

‘Sleepy Hollow’ Created an “Us Against Her” Environment for Star Nicole Beharie, ‘Burn It Down’ Book Claims

I really like what she says about why she wrote the book and can't wait to read it:

Quote

When speaking to TV’s Top 5 about the book, Ryan said it was uncovering the misconduct and bias in her Sleepy Hollow reporting, which she said “gives necessary and important context” to the trajectory of one of its star’s careers, that made her want to publish the book. “If there’s a thing that causes me to want to burn things down, it’s when people leave the industry or are essentially forced out of the industry or forced into, essentially, career hiatuses,” she told podcast co-hosts Lesley Goldberg and Daniel Fienberg. “Not due to a pattern of serious misconduct or serious unprofessionalism or serious transgressions of any kind but because they feared for their mental health, their physical well-being, their safety, and their overall quality of life was terrible.”

 

[DearEvette]

I got my copy of the book and went straight to the Sleepy Hollow chapter.

And yeah.  It was enraging.  There is an air of... gaslighting, I want to say of the fans that kinda comes through.

A lot of what fans suspected was true.  They were deliberately side-lining Abby.  They brought on Jenny as a possible replacement.

Both Nicole and Tom had problems adjusting to being the leads of the show. But, as one person put it, only one of them was given any grace. Ryan makes a point to say that multiple sources on the show told her that both Nicole and Tom went throught 'steep learning curves that sometimes involved friction' but only Beharie's was 'weaponized against her in a way that Tom's was not.'

Several BTS people left the show after the first season because of the toxic environment.  S1 had multiple writers of color.  Season 2 only had one.  And that person was very careful about how they rendered opinions.

They were filming in North Carolina - hot, miserable - Tom had a driver and got a custom made wig. Nicole had to provide her own transportation, had to be in HAMU 2 hours earlier than anyone else, they janked up her hair because they wouldn't hire someone to do black hair and had to fix it in post, gave her uncomfortable not-custom wigs, when she wanted to wear her hair natural a group of white men made the decision whether or not it would look 'professional' for her to wear her own hair. She finally got permission to bring in her own hair team in S3.  She worked longer hours than Tom.

And the infamous 'bite'?  According to Orlando Jones -- nobody saw it happen and there was always someone around.  Not only that he was supposedly there when the supposed incident occurred and they were all joking around.  It became a story 2 years after it supposedly happened because 1) Nicole had made noises about wanting to leave and 2) the network began a coordinated whisper campaign to pre-empt the complaints they'd get when she was gone. The EPs were very much aware of her vocal fanbase. That whisper campaign got her blacklisted.

And there is so  much more not even just Nicole.  Orlando and the one of the last WOC female writers Shernold Edwards are on record talking about a LOT of stuff.  But Nicole took the brunt of it.

My biggest surprise?  Nicole and Tom did not get along.  This breaks my heart because in all the of publicity stuff they seemed like they were good friends.

[peachmangosteen]

15 hours ago, DearEvette said:

They were filming in North Carolina - hot, miserable - Tom had a driver and got a custom made wig. Nicole had to provide her own transportation, had to be in HAMU 2 hours earlier than anyone else, they janked up her hair because they wouldn't hire someone to do black hair and had to fix it in post, gave her uncomfortable not-custom wigs, when she wanted to wear her hair natural a group of white men made the decision whether or not it would look 'professional' for her to wear her own hair. She finally got permission to bring in her own hair team in S3.  She worked longer hours than Tom.

What the fuck? There are no words.

[angora]

For many of us who watched Sleepy Hollow, we could see TPTB pulling their own show off the rails in real time, and enough has been intimated/come out over the years that we knew it was bad. But I think me and every other fan that hasn't read the book yet are bracing ourselves to see just *how* bad it was, which was surely even worse than we thought.

I agree that it's disappointing to learn that Tom and Nicole didn't get along, but in retrospect, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, at the bare minimum, if your costar is being treated blatantly better than you and ignoring it/not really doing anything to help, that would *have* to make it hard to get along with them.

Let's all just agree that any time marginalized fans notice something's off with the portrayal of marginalized characters onscreen and assert that there are issues behind the scenes, they're right. Every time they read between the lines in interviews, look for patterns in episode trailers, or point out discrepancies in how the show's official social media account interacts with cast members' accounts, they're accused of "seeing race everywhere" or just having sour grapes that their fave isn't getting the screentime/storylines that they want. But *every* time, even if it takes years, it eventually comes out that every concern they had was well-founded and then some. Everyone needs to quit it with the merry-go-round and just believe the fans the first time.

[Ohiopirate02]

17 hours ago, DearEvette said:

They were filming in North Carolina - hot, miserable - Tom had a driver and got a custom made wig. Nicole had to provide her own transportation

I live in the general are where the show was filmed, and know the show was primarily filmed in Wilmington but also did a lot of filming in New Bern.  The drive between the two is almost 2 hours of country roads as you drive around the giant Marine base in between.  And to top it off, hiring a driver in Wilmington is not an easy feat.  I can imagine Nicole having to drive herself between shoots especially if they were night shoots.  That or pay an exorbitant amount for one.

[MissAlmond]

The one question (concern?) I have about Ryan's book is from reading excerpts, it seems she spoke with a lot of those involved with Season 3. IMO, the S3 newcomers were basically the Clean Up Crew. As third season writer Leigh Dana Jackson basically lashed out at the time, Sleepy Hollow was already a mess when he got there. I'm not excusing any of their actions but being send in to "save" a show that's already reached the boiling point of anger is pretty fruitless.

What I want to know is WHO and HOW Sleepy Hollow got to that point. Who was in charge starting with the second half of S1 leading into S2 that not only hated their leading lady, but the audience SHE brought with her who made Sleepy Hollow a success in the first place.  I remember the show taking a turn from appealing to those of us who were their core base, to wanting A.V. Club type readers as viewers. That's when the show fell apart. 

Did Mo Ryan talk to those people? Because I want answers from them.  I want to get to the root of what happened. I'm willing to bet the S1/S2 folk who stayed were happily whispering to S3 newbies Nicole was crazy. They were also the ones furious (yes, YOU Albert and Raven) when that Sleepy Hollow Is Cancelled Party took off on Twitter. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by MissAlmond

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

The one question (concern?) I have about Ryan's book is from reading excerpts, it seems she spoke with a lot of those involved with Season 3

 from what I can tell Season 1 people were Orlando Jones who is the only person other that Shernold Edwards who go on record with their government names. 

But a lot of what she talks about comes from three people she only refers to as Robert, Frank and Paul.  Frank and Paul are definitely POC.  Not sure about Robert.  But they were all there from day 1. 

Based on what they say, I want to think they were either in the writers' room or fairly up there in the pecking order around production.  Robert is the one who speaks the angriest about what happened to Nicole.  In fact he said about Tom "On any other show he would have been the one with the big problem."  He quit kinda in disgust and anger over her treatment during S1.

Frank speaks about how ineffective Marc Goffman was as a leader from  the beginning.  Also he was not a genre guy so he never was comfortable with the show he was actually running.

Paul talks about the break up of the Kurtzmann and Orci partnership and how it was like a divorce and contributed to an air of tenseness.

One of the does explicitly state that the EPs were poisoning the writers against Nicole.  The way it reads is like they were bullies and everyone else fell in line behind them. 

Also the 'biting' incident took place in S1.  Somehow it 'leaked' and someone reached out to Orlando.  He denied that it happened.  He said that he got a call from the show's PR department to never respond to the incident again.  Which is interesting considering that Mo Ryan wrote a sympathetic article 2 years later after Abbie had been killed off.  She received a unsolicited call from the same PR person

Quote

“Kelly told me that Nicole Beharie was not just a disruptive presence on the set of Sleepy Hollow, she had bitten someone there. I was so stunned that this call had been made at all that I did not ask when this was alleged to have happened. Given the breathless way Kelly delivered the information, I assumed that if this incident happened, it was recent. Only during the reporting for this book have I found out this allegation first surfaced two years earlier. If Beharie was purportedly such a danger to others, why wait two years to write her off the show? “As someone who was there,” a well-placed source told me, “I was not aware of that alleged incident” being a factor in Beharie’s departure from the show.”

[Trini]

3 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

They were also the ones furious (yes, YOU Albert and Raven) when that Sleepy Hollow Is Cancelled Party took off on Twitter. 

I wasn't really part of that fandom, but even I remember the celebrations!

 

8 hours ago, angora said:

Let's all just agree that any time marginalized fans notice something's off with the portrayal of marginalized characters onscreen and assert that there are issues behind the scenes, they're right. <...> But *every* time, even if it takes years, it eventually comes out that every concern they had was well-founded and then some. Everyone needs to quit it with the merry-go-round and just believe the fans the first time.

I think of Candice Patton on The Flash, and how she has said (sorry, I can't remember the exact interview) that she was surprised but grateful that fans noticed things weren't right and spoke up for her when she couldn't really speak up for herself.

I wonder if someone will ever do a deep dive into CW shows; there were so many incidents for one network.

[MissAlmond]

@DearEvette dropping clues while sounding like Bill Paxton in my head saying: "Are you ready to go back to Sleepy Hollow's IMDB page?" 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by MissAlmond

[LadyAmalthea]

13 hours ago, angora said:

I agree that it's disappointing to learn that Tom and Nicole didn't get along, but in retrospect, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, at the bare minimum, if your costar is being treated blatantly better than you and ignoring it/not really doing anything to help, that would *have* to make it hard to get along with them.

I do remember at the time thinking it was odd that they seemed like such a team in the publicity, but that Tom didn’t ever speak up or support Nicole in what was happening, so it is surprising to learn that they didn’t get on at all but in retrospect perhaps shouldn’t be. 

 

8 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

What I want to know is WHO and HOW Sleepy Hollow got to that point. Who was in charge starting with the second half of S1 leading into S2 that not only hated their leading lady, but the audience SHE brought with her who made Sleepy Hollow a success in the first place.  I remember the show taking a turn from appealing to those of us who were their core base, to wanting A.V. Club type readers as viewers. That's when the show fell apart. 

Did Mo Ryan talk to those people? Because I want answers from them.  I want to get to the root of what happened. I'm willing to bet the S1/S2 folk who stayed were happily whispering to S3 newbies Nicole was crazy. They were also the ones furious (yes, YOU Albert and Raven) when that Sleepy Hollow Is Cancelled Party took off on Twitter. 

I’d like to know this too. I’ve never seen a show with such a well received premise and great actors and setup go off the rails and burn audience goodwill so quickly. 

[Zella]

9 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

A.V. Club type readers as viewers.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider an AV Club type reader? I'm familiar with the AV Club website. Or what it once was and the smoldering wreck that remains and somehow shambles on. LOL 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Zella

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also the 'biting' incident took place in S1.  Somehow it 'leaked' and someone reached out to Orlando.  He denied that it happened. 

In the excerpt I read, he said he thinks he would have seen it if it happened. Is there more information in the book?

Because all I can say is that excerpt from that chapter I read led to even more questions about the Sleepy Hollow stuff. 

[MissAlmond]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider an AV Club type reader? I'm familiar with the AV Club website. Or what it once was and the smoldering wreck that remains and somehow shambles on. LOL

I paid attention to the A V Club website during my days of first watching Community and later Sleepy Hollow. It wasn't the readership itself that was problematic but man, the ones who posted comments. All that "First" silliness and the fact a lot of them acted like juvenile frat boys. Too many jokes about women's bodies; posters thinking that tasteless Quvenzhané Wallis Oscar joke was oh so funny. Their articles had great insight but, man, I came to hate the majority of commenters there!  

ETA: One thing true about the site was it had an appreciation for the offbeat and various genres. However, in the case of Sleepy Hollow, both the articles and posters seemed to care more about John Noble than Nicole Beharie.  IMO, that's the audience/demographic the show shifted to go after. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by MissAlmond

[DearEvette]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

In the excerpt I read, he said he thinks he would have seen it if it happened. Is there more information in the book?

Yeah there is a multi paragraph anecdote.  But basically they needed hair and make up touch ups for a baseball promo/shoot.  Nicole was really salty about her wig situation.  Apparently it was bad.  The way the book makes it sound from Jones, the only time Nicole was in the hair/make up was when he was with her in the trailer, so he was around her the whole time in hair and makeup. And they had been cracking jokes about the hair.
 

Quote

 

“That day in the trailer, Jones said, he and Beharie were chatting and goofing around. They took a photo (which is still on Jones’s phone) in which Beharie pretended to bite Jones. Part of their banter that day had roots—pardon the pun—in the hair situation.”

...

“Your solution to the fact that you don’t want to spend money on a wig for me is, you send the Black lady to do some poking and prodding?’ We laughed. We went on with our day.”

 

Quote

“After touch-ups, everyone—including the hair and makeup crew—walked over to the set. That night, Jones told me, a production assistant came up to him and repeated a rumor that Beharie had bitten the hairstylist. Having been around Beharie all day, Jones was incredulous; he told me that in his opinion, no physical altercation could have occurred without someone seeing or noticing.”

Ryan says she has never been able to find a person who actually witnessed the incident. The hairstylist is apparently writing a book/project about her own Hollywood experiences and refused to comment, only to say that even though she was only there a very brief time, working on SH was the worst project she had ever worked on.

[MissAlmond]

51 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

The hairstylist is apparently writing a book/project about her own Hollywood experiences and refused to comment

Well she should because unless she's worked on well-known projects and naming names of high-profile people, who the hell is going to buy this book?

[Zella]

2 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

I paid attention to the A V Club website during my days of first watching Community and later Sleepy Hollow. It wasn't the readership itself that was problematic but man, the ones who posted comments. All that "First" silliness and the fact a lot of them acted like juvenile frat boys. Too many jokes about women's bodies; posters thinking that tasteless Quvenzhané Wallis Oscar joke was oh so funny. Their articles had great insight but, man, I came to hate the majority of commenters there!  

ETA: One thing true about the site was it had an appreciation for the offbeat and various genres. However, in the case of Sleepy Hollow, both the articles and posters seemed to care more about John Noble than Nicole Beharie.  IMO, that's the audience/demographic the show shifted to go after. 

Gotcha! Yes you did have to wade through a lot of bullshit in the comments. 

[MissAlmond]

I'm fifth in line at my local library for Mo Ryan's book.

I had forgotten Kurtzman and Orci's partnership ended during Sleepy Hollow. I'm sure the writers did feel like they were caught up in the hubris of a divorce. Kurtzman and Orci had known each other since high school. 

On 6/7/2023 at 5:32 PM, DearEvette said:

But a lot of what she talks about comes from three people she only refers to as Robert, Frank and Paul.  Frank and Paul are definitely POC.  Not sure about Robert.  But they were all there from day 1. 

If you go through Sleepy Hollow's IMDB writers' credits (yes I went there LOL) and narrow it down to 2013 or 2013-2014 and then, poof they're gone, you have the list on who "Paul", "Frank" and "Robert" probably are. Now "Kelly" who repeated the alleged biting incident, I already had strong suspicions about. There was a S3/S4 writer constantly doing the most praising the senior writers on social media during that time. Not surprised at all "Kelly" is still gainfully employed in the industry. 

On 6/7/2023 at 8:33 AM, angora said:

. But *every* time, even if it takes years, it eventually comes out that every concern they had was well-founded and then some. Everyone needs to quit it with the merry-go-round and just believe the fans the first time

Every damn time. Yet again and again we find ourselves butting heads with those who refuse to believe there's nothing new under the sun. 

I await reading Mo Ryan's book.

Edited June 27, 2023 by MissAlmond

[MissAlmond]

Now why did Sleepy Hollow creator, Philip Iscove take to Twitter streets declaring "Shipping nonsense! and how two people can just be friends blah, blah, blah" about fans shipping some couple on Hulu's The Bear? A show the man has nothing to do with! Guess Iscove thought nobody remembered his name. They did. Tweet deleted but the memory lives again.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by MissAlmond

[Raja]

2 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

Now why did Sleepy Hollow creator, Philip Iscove take to Twitter streets declaring "Shipping nonsense! and how two people can just be friends blah, blah, blah" about fans shipping some couple on Hulu's The Bear? A show the man has nothing to do with! Guess Iscove thought nobody remembered his name. They did. Tweet deleted but the memory lives again.

 

Well for a decade he has been hearing from fans that his  not changing plans when he had lighting in a bottle and bulled forward with his initial plot of the 200 year love story. So he snaps back.