S01.E01: Everybody's Been Burned / S01.E02: The Hunter Gets Captured By the Game

[AntiBeeSpray]

Guess they'll need to dial back on it and let the characters speak for themselves.

[smiley13]

I have no problem with the portrayal of the time period, or Emma's name.  I also have no issue with the show name "Aquarius."  I don't know what Zodiac is and why it keeps being brought up.  The hippie era and the Age of Aquarius go together to me, so the name makes sense.

 

Since this takes place two years before Manson became a household name, I think they are doing a good job of showing something that most people know little about.

[CeeBeeGee]

Agreed, and many people then and through the years--even the prosecution--maintained that he was that breed of charismatic that could charm people. He was by no means a dumb guy either; he was basically a profiler before profiling was a known thing and knew what to look for in a follower. That said though, not too many of his followers required all that much convincing to abandon their lives.

 

Charlie targeted the lonely, the sad, the abused. Susan Atkins lost her other at a young age and her father really couldn't take care of his family. And Squeaky Fromme came from a really ****ed up environment--very middle class (if not upper middle class) but I remember reading that her father punished her in HS by not talking to her for AN ENTIRE YEAR. How awful is that?! I am in no way trying to excuse Susan and Squeaky's eventual actions but it's no wonder they responded to someone who appeared to give them unconditional love.

 

What seemed to happen is that it fell apart with Altamont, the Manson murders, etc. It became very nasty, very fast. This is what I've gathered history wise. The movement was started (for lack of a better word) innocently enough, but then you get the weirdos and the hangers on joining, and that doesn't help any movement, regardless of the time period imo.

Very fast indeed. The great migration to San Francisco started that winter/early spring and truly exploded when Scott McKenzie's hit "San Francisco (Be Sure toWear Flowers in Your Hair)" dropped in May of '67. Within weeks the Haight was overwhelmed by the influx and things started going wrong. That fall Haight denizens staged a "funeral" to send the message "stay away, the scene is played out" and in New York City the "Groovie Murders" (really awful and sad) were a similar button to the scene. The female victim in the Groovy murders was a wealthy kid from Greenwich who ran away and was trying to live the counterculture. The movement was so lovely in theory but so many losers and freaks tagged along and ruined it. (Like, well, Charlie, who was in SF during the Summer of Love, recruiting.)

 

As one data point - I'm 30, and when I heard the title I immediately thought of that song where they sing "its the age of aquaaarius" but I have no idea what that is supposed to mean besides that it has something to do with the 60s. And, without looking it up, I don't know who that song is by. 

 

But "Love Generation"? I don't remember hearing anyone say that in 1969. When a character said, "The love generation plays rough", I had to laugh. Also, the name Emma is somewhat anachronistic and not very common for a girl born in 1952 or thereabouts. Linda, Karen, Susan, Debbie, yes. Emma, no.

 

 

I said "not very common", not "impossible". Nowadays, parents want their children's names to be unique. Back when I was in school, there were usually five Debbies, three Susans , three Karens, two Kathys and one Cathy. There might be a Vicki or a Patti or two in the mix. No one was trying to be unique or make a statement, or recall names from literature or the distant past like they do now.

As it happens several of the Manson girls were named just that. (Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel--nicknamed Katie--Cathy Gillies...also a Linda (very common name), a leslie, a Sandra....yes, the name Emma seemed a bit out of place to me as well!)

[EarlGreyTea]

I have no problem with the portrayal of the time period, or Emma's name.  I also have no issue with the show name "Aquarius."  I don't know what Zodiac is and why it keeps being brought up.  The hippie era and the Age of Aquarius go together to me, so the name makes sense.

 

Since this takes place two years before Manson became a household name, I think they are doing a good job of showing something that most people know little about.

 

Zodiac is a 2007 film about the Zodiac killer. It was set in the same time period and is also about crime, hence the comparisons.

[LeGrandElephant]

I'm tempted to try to dig up census records from the time to find a handful of Emmas, but I really have other things I should be doing. I guess I'm just saying that its one thing if a name was unheard of, like say using a name derived from one language in an ancient historical time period where the people in your setting had yet to encounter that language, but its another thing if its a classic name in that culture and it just wasn't the most common at that time period. Not everyone has the most common names of their cohort, and its fine with me if a character has an unusual name as long as its not completely implausible and ridiculous. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by LeGrandElephant

[LeGrandElephant]

Then I hope you stayed away from the Mad Men threads; anachronisms were called out left and right, and many posters were often completely wrong. Lots of, "...but I never witnessed it so it couldn't have been a thing."

I saw a lot of that, I think that's what influenced my "always". Sorry if I'm taking it out on the people in this thread!

[mansonlamps]

Yes I know it wasn't impossible that there would be a girl named Emma in 1967, but it pisses me off since it would be so unlikely and actually takes me out of the time frame. And it just so happens to be the most popular girls' name in 2015. The only Emma I ever heard of until the eighties was my dad's aunt who was born in the 1800's.

It's similar to the people who complained about the teenager named Connie in The Slap which is set in the current timeframe. Not impossible, but why?

I guess we all have our idiosyncrasies.

[Anela]

I could sing along with the chorus, but I don't know much else about it. I didn't think of the zodiac (or the Zodiac movie, which I haven't seen). 

I thought it was about the Zodiac killer, and then read an article about them going undercover in the Manson family.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Anela

[gunderda]

So I get that he was targeting Emma, but how did he know that Emma would be at that particular party so he could meet her?

When she sneaks out and her "boyfriend" picks her up and drives off they show another car start up with the assumption that that car is following them.

 

I'm going to assume since Emma's dad was ignoring Charlie's call that Charlie start observing Emma and figured out her habits and waited for the right opportunity. 

[LeGrandElephant]

The conversation at the party about Charmain was pretty chilling. Did "free love" in the 60s really mean women were talked about like they weren't there and told who to sleep with?

[shapeshifter]

The conversation at the party about Charmain was pretty chilling. Did "free love" in the 60s really mean women were talked about like they weren't there and told who to sleep with?

My opinion based upon experiences of that time period:

Manson's guy was just being a dick. That kind of behavior was and is typical of gangs. Rape is about power.

Pacifist groups who espoused "free love" did expect women to be open to the suggestion, but there wasn't a threat of rape. Worst case scenario was to be told you couldn't stay there.

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs?

[LeGrandElephant]

It does make more sense if I think of it as a gang initiation thing instead of as a free love thing.

[Hanahope]

I thought it was a good background on Charlie's beginnings.  How he hooked the various women into his 'family,'  (especially how he sent one woman to distract the not!boyfriend with a blowjob and used two others to befriend Emma and isolate her outside where he could talk to her quietly, then allowed her to see the not!boyfriend getting the blowjob), how he progressed in his violence (he only blinded the clothing store owner), how he appeared sane, but a bit menacing to others, but not significantly dangerous.  I think the actor is doing a good job showing Charlie's charisma and ego.

[helenamonster]

I'm liking it so far! I'm halfway through S5 of Mad Men so I'm kind of on '60s overload right now, but I'll always be fascinated with anything Manson and didn't want to pass this series up. It doesn't feel like a network show (not that being a network show is necessarily bad, but cable and Netflix have been dominating for quite some time now, and this felt like it would be more at home there instead). I was surprised at how explicit the BJ scene was, then remembered how explicit they made Annalise Keating being eaten out in the How to Get Away with Murder pilot and figured the rules are just more lax now. Also, I watched on Hulu...is there any platform where they don't censor out the more sensitive curse words? Not that it matters to me, I was just kind of confused when they would randomly cut words out that I know are not allowed to be said on network television. Was this not always supposed to air on NBC?

 

The one frustrating thing about this show, and it's kind of an inherent problem with any period drama, is the knowing of how this is all going to end. Every time Manson bugs someone for a record deal I just want to scream, "Give it to him already, you dumbasses! Before he has innocent people murdered over it!"

 

Was there ever any indication of Manson playing for both teams? I know he liked the ladies but I was surprised by him being into dudes too.

 

The guy playing Hodiak's partner and the guy playing his snitch might look alike, but they're both so damn purty I'm not going to complain. Mmm.

 

I can't decide if the (mostly accurate, I assume) way they're portraying race and police is an intentional commentary on the same subject in 2015 or a little ill-timed.

 

The girl's name being Emma felt anachronistic to me until I remembered that my name is Helena and that when I have to give my name to people over the phone at work and they ask me to spell it, it's usually followed up with something like, "Oh, like Helena of Troy." So yeah, I have no room to talk on that one.

[AntiBeeSpray]

I'm curious: What tv rating was the show given? I'd figure it would be TV-MA.

[miles2go]

Not that it matters to me, I was just kind of confused when they would randomly cut words out that I know are not allowed to be said on network television. Was this not always supposed to air on NBC?

 

 Not sure, but they might be thinking ahead to the DVD release.  DVDs don't usually bleep out anything, and may even have scenes cut from the original broadcast.

(That's just a guess, I don't really know.)

[turnitwayup]

I'm curious: What tv rating was the show given? I'd figure it would be TV-MA.

 

Most of the eps are TV-14 and I remember seeing at least one TV-PG ep while binge watching it. Going by NBC's site, 1x01 TV-14 LSV, 1x02 TV-14, 1x03 TV-14 LV, 1x04 TV-14 LV, 1x05 TV-14 V, 1x06 TV-PG V, 1x07 TV-14 V, 1x08 TV-14 V, 1x09 TV-14 L, 1x10 TV-14 V, 1x11 TV-14 V, 1x12 TV-14 V

Edited June 3, 2015 by turnitwayup

[AntiBeeSpray]

Most of the eps are TV-14 and I remember seeing at least one TV-PG ep while binge watching it. Going by NBC's site, 1x01 TV-14 LSV, 1x02 TV-14, 1x03 TV-14 LV, 1x04 TV-14 LV, 1x05 TV-14 V, 1x06 TV-PG V, 1x07 TV-14 V, 1x08 TV-14 V, 1x09 TV-14 L, 1x10 TV-14 V, 1x11 TV-14 V, 1x12 TV-14 V

 

Wow. I'm surprised. Considering some of the content. Guess some of the restraints have been loosened.

[Yokosmom]

Manson knew Denis Wilson of The Beach Boys he even lived with him for a time. Its through him that he met Terry Melcher who lived at 10050 Cielo Drive. We all know what happens after that.

 

Thank you! That's what I was referring to in my earlier post. I knew one of the Beach Boys had a tie-in to Manson picking that house later.

 

I'm looking forward to the Beach Boy connection on the show.  Denis Wilson met some pretty girls and invited them to his house.  Next thing he knows, the entire Manson family, which was possibly around 20 or so people have moved in.  They wrecked his very expensive sports car.  He wanted them gone, but was so intimidated by Manson that he wasn't quite sure how to get rid of them.  Hoping that this shows up on a future episode.

 

The scene where they talk about dumpster diving for food, and how much food was being thrown out was true to life.  They got most of their food that way.  The dumpster diving kept them going a lot longer than they otherwise might have.

[helenamonster]

I forgot to mention that I really like the actress that plays Charmain. I only ever watched the pilot episode of The Vampire Diaries and I can't remember if she was in that or if I've seen her anywhere else, but she's good.

 

Emma's dad is such a jag. Does he even care that his daughter his missing, or is he just trying to protect his reputation while still getting a little Manson action? Ugh, do more.

 

It is kind of crazy to watch this and realize that not only was this guy a living, breathing, human being, he's still alive. I would be curious as to his reaction to this show (assuming he's still, if he ever was, capable of coherent thought). I'm sure he's enjoying the attention, given how fast his recent marriage went south.

[Dejana]

It is kind of crazy to watch this and realize that not only was this guy a living, breathing, human being, he's still alive. I would be curious as to his reaction to this show (assuming he's still, if he ever was, capable of coherent thought). I'm sure he's enjoying the attention, given how fast his recent marriage went south.

 

Oh, wow, looked up the story there. The fiancée swears it's not true, but the whole thing sounds suitably bizarre and unhinged considering that it's Manson we're talking about.

 

Because I'm a massive name nerd, with the Social Security Administration's Popular Baby Names site as one of my bookmarks, I had to research Emma. Aquarius begins in 1967 with Emma being 16 years old. In 1951, the name Emma ranked 174 for American girls, with 1,726 girls being given the moniker—ahead of Debbie, but just below Candace. Linda was #1 (~74K), followed by Mary (66K), Patricia (56K), Deborah (42K) and Barbara (41K).

 

I do think that when TV writers do period pieces, sometimes there can be a tendency to stick the heroes with names that sound young and fresh to contemporary ears, especially for writers who are more interested in capturing a general mood/feeling of "the past" than being sticklers for accuracy.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Dejana

[txhorns79]

I do think that when TV writers do period pieces, sometimes there can be a tendency to stick the heroes with names that sound young and fresh to contemporary ears, especially for writers who are more interested in capturing a general mood/feeling of "the past" than being sticklers for accuracy.

 

I think the key is to remember that just because a name wasn't as popular during a certain time period as it might be today, does not mean the name vanished entirely from existence. 

 

 

Emma's dad is such a jag. Does he even care that his daughter his missing, or is he just trying to protect his reputation while still getting a little Manson action? Ugh, do more.

 

The whole thing reads almost like bad fan fiction.  Of course Emma's dad is Charlie Manson's lover, and now the three of them are in some utterly bizarre love triangle/extortion scheme.            

[AntiBeeSpray]

I think the key is to remember that just because a name wasn't as popular during a certain time period as it might be today, does not mean the name vanished entirely from existence. 

 

The whole thing reads almost like bad fan fiction.  Of course Emma's dad is Charlie Manson's lover, and now the three of them are in some utterly bizarre love triangle/extortion scheme.            

 

Yea it's like they're trying to spin it in a certain way... the era.

[Milburn Stone]

Yea it's like they're trying to spin it in a certain way... the era.

 

Yes, they are trying to spin it in a certain way, but no different than all fiction spins its themes in intentional ways.

 

In the case of Aquarius, they certainly are promoting the theme that the wretched countercultural excesses of the period were a direct reaction to the wretched (and criminal) establishment power-system repressions of the period. And they're doing a good job of it.

[shapeshifter]

..In the case of Aquarius, they certainly are promoting the theme that the wretched countercultural excesses of the period were a direct reaction to the wretched (and criminal) establishment power-system repressions of the period. And they're doing a good job of it.

If the show continues for more seasons, they might be able to expand on roots of the phenomenon to include demographics (post-war baby boom), economics (the older generation growing up during the Great Depression), etc.

[wanderingstar]

I tried with this. I really did. But I zoned out about 20 minutes into the first episode. The narrative seemed aimless and unwieldy, and none of the characters resonated with me. I like DD, but even he didn't do much for me in this.

[AndreaK1041]

Because of this dumb show I picked up Helter Skelter from the library and now I think I will never sleep again. I have already double checked all the locks in the house and am wide eyed in bed. Damn you, Aquarius!

[millennium]

I'm watching this because a) there's nothing else on these days, and b) the X-Files reboot isn't until January.

 

This version is way too sanitized for me.   Charles Manson is too clean.   The girls are too clean.  Their clothes look like they just came from the mall.  The original Helter Skelter movie did a far better job of capturing the look of the times and the infectious insanity of the clan (although to be fair, the "times" weren't so far removed from the date of the movie).

 

For me, the main problem with this series is that it's an appetizer and there's no main course coming.   We all know what lies ahead for southern California and the Manson family, but we'll be getting none of it.   It reminds me of the quarrel I have with "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D."   You KNOW there are big-name superheroes in that universe, but they won't be stopping by while we watch. 

 

If you are interested in this phase of the Manson family's existence, I recommend the book "The Family" by Ed Sanders   It covers their early activities in ways Helter Skelter didn't and shows you how they migrated from one house/host to another around Los Angeles.  

 

What this series did make me want is a new show in which Fox Mulder gets trapped in a time warp a la Quantum Leap and with each new episode is temporarily stranded in different eras and can't leave until he helps police departments of the day solve a puzzling crime. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by millennium

[wanderingstar]

What this series did make me want is a new show in which Fox Mulder gets trapped in a time warp a la Quantum Leap and with each new episode is temporarily stranded in different eras and can't leave until he helps police departments of the day solve a puzzling crime.

 

Now that I would watch!

[AnnA]

I tried with this. I really did. But I zoned out about 20 minutes into the first episode. The narrative seemed aimless and unwieldy, and none of the characters resonated with me. I like DD, but even he didn't do much for me in this.

Same here!

I tried it live and when that didn't work out tried it again on my DVR.

I just couldn't get into it either.

[Humbugged]

Wonder if the ballet picture of Emma in the study is an actual picture of the actress - she studied dance at the Bolshoi in Russia (as well as being into Roller Derby which Bunheads wrote into her character)

[helenamonster]

Wonder if the ballet picture of Emma in the study is an actual picture of the actress - she studied dance at the Bolshoi in Russia (as well as being into Roller Derby which Bunheads wrote into her character)

 

I would guess yes...the picture looked just like her and if she does do ballet in real life, it would only make sense.

[shapeshifter]

I would guess yes...the picture looked just like her and if she does do ballet in real life, it would only make sense.

For those who know it really is the actress (now including me), it can make the distance between who Emma was and who Cherry Pop is that much greater.

[Chas411]

I was surprised they went the way they did with Grey Damon's character being married to a WOC. It's a nice twist but I was getting some vibes between he and Charmain in the pilot and thought they'd be exploring that.

 

I was even more surprised to see that the dad is gay and carrying on with Charles... Was Manson bisexual? I didn't know that at all..

 

Edited June 20, 2015 by Chas411

[miles2go]

Was Manson bisexual?

 

 

Not according to Guinn's biography of Manson.  While in prison, he raped another inmate in a manner similar to his attempted rape of Karn, but how someone behaves in prison doesn't necessarily indicate their real sexuality.

 

As far as I know, the whole gay relationships/blackmail plot is fictional.  However, Manson did enjoy controlling other people, so it does fit his personality.

[shapeshifter]

Not according to Guinn's biography of Manson.  While in prison, he raped another inmate in a manner similar to his attempted rape of Karn, but how someone behaves in prison doesn't necessarily indicate their real sexuality.

 

As far as I know, the whole gay relationships/blackmail plot is fictional.  However, Manson did enjoy controlling other people, so it does fit his personality.

The first post in this thread includes a quote from Manson's cell mate that refers to his sexuality, but, as I noted, and as you too indicate, cell mates are not necessarily credible sources. Still, it gives the writers a bit of leeway to go in that direction as they fictionalize his story.

[helenamonster]

Tbh, I'm not sure if Manson is actually sexually attracted to many people. I think he just uses sex as a means of control, at least as I've seen him portrayed in this show and 2004's Helter Skelter.

[lucindabelle]

Oh, wow, looked up the story there. The fiancée swears it's not true, but the whole thing sounds suitably bizarre and unhinged considering that it's Manson we're talking about.

 

Because I'm a massive name nerd, with the Social Security Administration's Popular Baby Names site as one of my bookmarks, I had to research Emma. Aquarius begins in 1967 with Emma being 16 years old. In 1951, the name Emma ranked 174 for American girls, with 1,726 girls being given the moniker—ahead of Debbie, but just below Candace. Linda was #1 (~74K), followed by Mary (66K), Patricia (56K), Deborah (42K) and Barbara (41K).

 

I do think that when TV writers do period pieces, sometimes there can be a tendency to stick the heroes with names that sound young and fresh to contemporary ears, especially for writers who are more interested in capturing a general mood/feeling of "the past" than being sticklers for accuracy.

  

I'm watching this because a) there's nothing else on these days, and b) the X-Files. reboot isn't until January.

 

This version is way too sanitized for me.   Charles Manson is too clean.   The girls are too clean.  Their clothes look like they just came from the mall.  The original Helter Skelter movie did a far better job of capturing the look of the times and the infectious insanity of the clan (although to be fair, the "times" weren't so far removed from the date of the movie).

 

For me, the main problem with this series is that it's an appetizer and there's no main course coming.   We all know what lies ahead for southern California and the Manson family, but we'll be getting none of it.   It reminds me of the quarrel I have with "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D."   You KNOW there are big-name superheroes in that universe, but they won't be stopping by while we watch. 

 

If you are interested in this phase of the Manson family's existence, I recommend the book "The Family" by Ed Sanders   It covers their early activities in ways Helter Skelter didn't and shows you how they migrated from one house/host to another around Los Angeles.  

 

What this series did make me want is a new show in which Fox Mulder gets trapped in a time warp a la Quantum Leap and with each new episode is temporarily stranded in different eras and can't leave until he helps police departments of the day solve a puzzling crime.

Born in 1964 and my name ranking is 20 lower than that and yet not only do I have it another girl in my block had it too and I met another at summer camp. I can buy Emma as it is an old fashioned name. Caitlyn or Megan or Tiffant, no. Emma, sure.

I bet the reason the 1975? Heller shelter seemed more realistic looking is because people involved remembered those days and weren't learning about them from books and photographs. Yes the hippies all look way too clean.

When the oublic restated hair a few years ago the actors wore wigs. Instead of looking like they were in high school they all cleaely were in their 20s and 30s and were inappropriately muscled.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Can't watch the episodes now :(. Only have the recaps... and they're a bit tough to get through O_o. They seem... so Hollywood-esque. Which is a nice way of putting it.

[shapeshifter]

Can't watch the episodes now :(. Only have the recaps... and they're a bit tough to get through O_o. They seem... so Hollywood-esque. Which is a nice way of putting it.

Never fear! They just moved them to Saturday nights. Or will you not be able to watch network TV then either?

[AntiBeeSpray]

Never fear! They just moved them to Saturday nights. Or will you not be able to watch network TV then either?

I can, via on demand. Only from ep 3 forward :(. Hence the recap reads. I'm able to :).

[ethalfrida]

New to this series and I was binge watching the first season but after two days had to switch to something else. It's kind of dark even for me...

Emma was the 357th most papular name for girls on a list of 1000 for 1960s.

1960s popular names

Edited September 5, 2016 by ethalfrida

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

New to this series and I was binge watching the first season but after two days had to switch to something else. It's kind of dark even for me...

Emma was the 357th most papular name for girls on a list of 1000 for 1960s.

1960s popular names

I have put up with the darkness because I lived through a (thankfully) lighter version of the communal, back-to-the-land movement, and also because Duchovny's character ads some lightness at times.

I wonder if they chose the currently popular name of Emma to telegraph to the viewers that she is not a real character from that time, and also to suggest that we, the 21st century audience, are seeing the events through her viewpoint.

[ethalfrida]

6 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I have put up with the darkness because I lived through a (thankfully) lighter version of the communal, back-to-the-land movement, and also because Duchovny's character ads some lightness at times.

I wonder if they chose the currently popular name of Emma to telegraph to the viewers that she is not a real character from that time, and also to suggest that we, the 21st century audience, are seeing the events through her viewpoint.

Shapeshifter, I think you are making them far more clever than they really are (smiley face). But I can't really say, though. I love this series and find the characterization incredible. Yes, I was around when Manson did his dirty deeds. The whole 60s era was something I still love. But remember Emma Peel? That is who I think of when I hear the name...

I would love to hear about your time with the back to the land movement.

[shapeshifter]

42 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

Shapeshifter, I think you are making them far more clever than they really are (smiley face). But I can't really say, though. I love this series and find the characterization incredible. Yes, I was around when Manson did his dirty deeds. The whole 60s era was something I still love. But remember Emma Peel? That is who I think of when I hear the name...

I would love to hear about your time with the back to the land movement.

Yes. Emma Peel!

I keep starting to write some memoirs...